How to Write Button Copy that Converts Book Sales with Nancy Harhut | Ep. 56 - Author's Edge: the Go-to Marketing Podcast in Publishing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nancy (00:00):
What we wanna do is we wanna focus on the the benefit,

(00:02):
because that's what people arelooking for.
It's what am I gonna get out ofthis book, if I pick it up and
read it?
What am I gonna get out of thisnewsletter if I subscribe to it?
So, if we focus on on that, ifwe explain, this what is what
it's gonna deliver to you.
This is how you are gonnabenefit from it.
That that motivates people.

Allison (00:42):
Welcome back to the Author's Edge where we are
helping you be your very bestmarketer because somebody has
to, and also you are busy doingwhat you do.
What you're an expert in andwriting your books and speaking.
Nobody has time to become anexpert in marketing too.
That's why I'm here.

(01:03):
Your publishing Sherpa.
And I'm Allison Lane.
If we haven't met, if you're anog, I appreciate you.
Do me a solid, make sure thatyou bookmark.
This, if you know me at all, youknow that I've been talking
about this author and this bookfor a year and a half since I

(01:26):
saw her speak.
Today's guest is all aboutgetting people to take action.
Nancy Hart is a global expert inblending behavioral science with
marketing, helping us tap intodecision making shortcuts that.

(01:47):
Honestly we all need,'causenobody has time to ring hands
and mull things over.
I love it when there's just ashortcut and I can get
something, understand somebody'spoint and take action.
Her specialty is blending that.
Creative with decision science,which is a new term to me, and

(02:11):
to prompt a response to helppeople get to their action
faster, whatever their actiontends to be.
So she's spoken around the worldfrom so by Southwest to Sydney
and all the places in between.
I met her in Portland, Maine asit happens.
I'm excited to introduce you toNancy.

(02:34):
Welcome to the show.
Nancy, thank you so much forbeing here and for taking time
from your like whirlwindspeaking everywhere, helping
every marketer in the world bebetter and more succinct and
clearer.
I feel like when people hearmarketing, they raise an

(02:59):
eyebrow,'cause marketing gets abad rep, but productive
marketing is clear and easy'cause nobody has time to, sift
through all the pretty words inorder to get to.
Can you give me what I want?
So when we get started, let'sjust get started with.

(03:22):
A definition of your expertisebecause when I saw you speak at
the Agents of Change conference,which are mutual friend Rich
Brooks runs.

Nancy (03:35):
Awesome.

Allison (03:36):
And he'll be on the podcast in a couple weeks.
I filled up a notebook with allthe things, and it's the only
notebook portion that I keptfrom then.
And that was a couple years ago.
And since then I've been sharingyour book, which is using
behavioral science in marketing.

(03:56):
And then the subtitle is DriveCustomer Action and Loyalty by
Prompting Instinctive Responses.
And I think that is theimportant part is that we want
to drive people to action andmake it easy for them.
But let's back up and if youcould just explain what
behavioral science is and why weshould be listening to you about

(04:23):
it.

Nancy (04:25):
Sure.
That's a great question.
Sometimes people hear scienceand like their Eyes roll roll
back in their head.
They're like, you

Allison (04:30):
yeah.

Nancy (04:31):
I'm an I'm an author, I'm a creative person, science
expert, test these tubes andlab, and that's not me.
You know?
And And the truth of the matteris comparable science is just
very simply.
It's the study of how peoplebehave.
more And more specifically, it'sthe study of why we do what we
do.
And when you And when we thinkabout it All of us.
All of us someone that we thatwe want to do something.
Maybe we want readers to buy ourbooks.

(04:53):
Maybe we want our spouse to takeout the trash.
Maybe we want our kids to getdressed, we maybe we want our.
Audience to buy our products andservices.
all We all have someone we wantsomething from.
We We wanna influence somebody'sbehavior.
And behavioral scientists havefound that very very often
people don't make well wellthought out, well considered
deliberate decisions.
What we do often, not always,but often is we we cruise along

(05:16):
on autopilot and we we just relyon these decision defaults that
humans have developed over overthe ages.
so if.
if.
Marketers, right?
right?
If we can get out ahead of that,if we're aware of these decision
defaults, we can use them tomutual advantage.
We can use them to our advantageand to our audience's advantage.
Because if we know that somebodyis likely to say X, if we say Y,

(05:39):
and we want them to say X, thenlet's make sure we say Y in our
marketing materials.
So it's just an easy way toIncrease the the likelihood that
people will pay attention to ourmarketing messages and that they
will engage with them.
And respond to them.
So science sounds sounds maybemaybe daunting, but it's just
very simply the study of how howpeople behave, why they do what

(06:00):
they do.
And my book is, and how to getthem to do more of what we want
them to do.

Allison (06:06):
No kidding.
Now, for those of you out therethinking I don't consider myself
a marketer and I wanna be directand clear.
We are talking about beingdirect and clear.
And let me give you an examplethat I learned from our kids'
pediatrician.

(06:28):
Which is this, would you likegreen beans or broccoli to go
with your chicken nuggets?
I'm giving two choices.
I'm not saying, do you want avegetable because.
I'm helping a toddler who's now16 and a half and driving

(06:49):
himself to school.
I was helping him go, oh, thereare two choices.
I didn't give him six choicesand I didn't ask an open-ended
question because then he neverwould've gotten to the answer.
When I would share, the What'sfor dinner?
Or have to answer that.
What's for dinner?
Do you want green beans orbroccoli with your chicken

(07:10):
nuggets?
Was what I would ask.
And also, when you're teachingyour child to do something you
wanna use the words of what youwant them to do?
The whole like, don't run, don'thit your sister.
What they hear is hit yoursister, don't pull the dog's

(07:32):
tail.
And that's not, you wanna startwith what they want so that they
can actually hear it and takeaction on it.
I always thought that was sointeresting, but I think that it
works still.

Nancy (07:45):
I think it's interesting and I something about about this
once I and I.
the behind is pull the dog'stail.
We can create a mental pictureof pulling a a dog's tail.
We can envision a dog and itstail and our hand yanking on the
on the tail.
But,

Allison (07:59):
But the word don't.

Nancy (08:00):
What's What's the mental image for the word?
Don't?
There's There's no, It's likethe international No sign.
I guess there's no, yeah, it'sfar to envision No.
Yeah.
Or no, like when I say no,

Allison (08:11):
no.
If I say to you, book.

Nancy (08:12):
dog, lima Beans, broccoli.
Like you have a picture, right?
But no don't, there's not apicture for it.
So what so what happens is whatwe do see is everything that
comes after that word.
So I think the pediatrician isvery smart saying, instead of
saying Don't don't hit yoursister, you say, be nice to your
sister, treat treat your, Treatyour

Allison (08:30):
treat your sister nicely.
Share your toys with yoursister.

Nancy (08:33):
Help

Allison (08:33):
help your sister when she falls down.
Positive things that you wantthe child to do, but also things
that they can envisionthemselves doing,

Nancy (08:40):
And I

Allison (08:41):
I think issue

Nancy (08:41):
with

Allison (08:41):
with don't is

Nancy (08:42):
hard hard for us to mentally create that future.
And so we focus on everythingthat comes after the after the
word.

Allison (08:48):
Yeah.
Okay.
So now we know what behavioralscience is and based on that, I
think that marketers or even ifyou don't consider yourself a
marketer, if you work forsomeone else, you are always
marketing your work.
You are presenting your actionsand accomplishments to your boss

(09:13):
who controls how much money youmake, and you are instead of
asking for a raise, you arepresenting what you did drove,
company productivity or revenueor profit or whatever.
So whatever your world is,whether you're an author and you

(09:34):
are trying to sell your book, oryou are a speaker, and you are
putting together your one sheetor most often I see people wanna
branch out when they reach acertain point in their career.
And they're thinking of, what'sgonna be my encore career?
I've done X for 25 years, andnow I'm gonna pivot and do this

(09:57):
other thing.
Now, they have to build awebsite.
What's a mistake that you seepeople make when they have to
start creating content, whetherthey're speaking or website
language or email marketing.

Nancy (10:14):
Ah that's a great question.
And there are, you know, Lots ofmistakes that we all make
because we're human.
And then there are lots ofmistakes that people make make
when they first start marketingand advertising because that's,
that's not what they studied.
There are really good author,they're a really good chef, or
or they're a really good,Accountant, but But suddenly
it's I need to let people knowthat I need to get the word out
about my business.
About my accomplishment.
And so I think I think one ofthe biggest mistakes that we

(10:35):
make is we we talk aboutourselves, right?
Or we talk about our product orour service, and

Allison (10:40):
And

Nancy (10:40):
it

Allison (10:41):
it comes from a good place.
We talk about our companies, ourbrands, or our products, our
service, our book, whatever itis,

Nancy (10:46):
because we

Allison (10:47):
we think they're good.

Nancy (10:48):
or that's

Allison (10:48):
That's why we're talking about them.
We go on and on, but what weneed to do is we need to think
about

Nancy (10:53):
Who our who our audiences and what they wanna hear, And a
A lot of times they're lookingfor something very specific.
They want An answer or asolution to their problems or an
idea or some information thatthey're trying to access.
we We need to think about thingsfrom the perspective of our of
of our audience, right?
I could say You you shouldreally buy my book.

(11:15):
My book is, really good.
I spent a long time writing it.
I have lots of of experience andI've put all that experience in
there.
What you're hearing is this thismight be dated, but back in the
Charlie Brown, you know, w wahwhack.
Yeah.
People gloss over.
We, are my, because we're we'remore interested in ourselves

(11:35):
than anyone else.
So when I say I, I'm not talkingabout you, Allison.
I'm talking about me, Nancy.
if

Allison (11:39):
But if I say you Short of using Allison.

Nancy (11:43):
as a as a substitute for Allison, right?
So you pay attention when yousee the word you, when we're
listening, We zero in on in onthat when we're reading, we're
skimming and scanning, butcertain words jump out at us.
me,

Allison (11:54):
our, those aren't words that jump out at us.
You

Nancy (11:57):
jump jump out at us, right?
Because we're more interested inourselves than in anyone else.
when when we're talking about,Whatever it is we're selling,
whether we're selling our bookour or our ability as a speaker,
or maybe we're gonna do trainingor.
We've created a website forwhatever that we're selling.
wanna We wanna think about whatis it that our audience is gonna
want want to find out.
If I'm trying to sell myself asa speaker, I

Allison (12:17):
I gotta think about what is the conference looking
for

Nancy (12:20):
and how do

Allison (12:21):
how do I position myself to fill that need?

Nancy (12:23):
instead of

Allison (12:23):
instead of just going on and on about myself,

Nancy (12:26):
I

Allison (12:26):
I need to think about,

Nancy (12:27):
gee, you've

Allison (12:28):
you've got this conference coming up and it's
about

Nancy (12:30):
Marketing and it's and it's the fifth time you've run
the conference, so you're you'relooking for a new angle.
I I can speak about behavioralscience.
Not a lot of people are speakingabout that, as opposed to,
you're you are running aconference.
I speak at lots of conferences.
I can speak for 30 minutes, or Ican speak for 60 minutes.
It's not all about me.
It's about, your your audienceand what it is that they're

(12:51):
trying to accomplish.
And then we kind of positionourselves as The way a way for
them to accomplish what theirgoal is.

Allison (12:58):
Yes.
When they turn it on themselves,I think that people think it's
gonna be so simple to writetheir bio.
But your bio is, your websiteisn't ever about you.
And that means thatunfortunately people aren't
going to, they're actually notinterested in reading all of

(13:21):
your credentials.
Which you earned and stillexist.
But that's not why people hireyou or they buy your book or
they want you to come speak.
They assume that you are goingto deliver the goods, and then

(13:44):
they're delighted when they findout how credentialed you are.
But very seldom do I meetsomeone who says, I know I wanna
work with you, but tell me yourbackground.
They do not care people.
They do not, and I think comingto age professionally, you think

(14:05):
you have to point to your pastaccomplishments, but it's not
true.
Because the only person who seesthat is again, your one boss
who's tracking your professionaldevelopment, but nobody else is
doing that.
And it certainly gets in theway.
Now, I've heard you say thatdecision making shortcuts are

(14:28):
really powerful and I saw abunch again in your book that I
have marked up so many times andwritten notes at the bottom to
myself of this is what I'm gonnado.
And even drafted my own languageof, how to use, don't miss out

(14:48):
like that kind of but filling inthe blank of don't miss the
chance to capitalize on thecredibility you have today.
Which is speaking to, from mypoint of view, when people say,
oh, I wanna write my book, I'mgonna retire soon, and then I'm
gonna write my book since I'm anexpert in this space and I'm

(15:08):
like, oh my God, once youretire, nobody cares.
Don't miss out because you havecredibility today.
You are big poo today, but assoon as you say, I am retiring,
that equals I'm out of the game.
I'm no longer on the bleedingedge.

(15:29):
Nobody wants your, 15 lessonsthat you've learned over 30
years.
They wanna know what can theyapply today.
Yeah.
So that's what I was really gavemy, I was pouring through this
and I loved it.

Nancy (15:41):
Well, I think you're, you're touching on a couple of
things.
Thing thing is novel.
So you were saying like, look,Strike while the iron is hot.
Like when you're doing doingsomething now people are
interested in you because it'snew.
It's fresh and you're in themoment.
And

Allison (15:52):
If you wait and you say five years ago when I was
working at X, Y, Z, these arethe lessons I learned.
That's old news.
And we're not interested in oldnews.
The human brain is hardwired for

Nancy (16:02):
News and

Allison (16:03):
and novelty.
And the reason is when we findsomething that we think is new,

Nancy (16:06):
it

Allison (16:06):
it activates the pleasure center or the reward
center in our brand, and thatreleases dopamine, which among
other things is a feel goodchemical.
So essentially

Nancy (16:13):
when we when we think we found something new, we we get
this.
Rush of Yeah.
Chemicals that make us feelgood.
so so we're constantly lookingfor that That next rush of
chemicals, right?
You have that?
Yeah.
high, that

Allison (16:24):
that.
And so we're looking for thatnext new thing because That's
what fuels it.
If you're hot right now, ifyou're, someone that people
know, or if you've got aposition that's important or
You've got a perspective on atopic that's really

Nancy (16:36):
timely, like you like you said, now is the time to do it.
Don't wait because.
wait.
It's not news anymore and peoplearen't gonna be as interested.
And then the, the, when you weresaying like miss don't miss your
chance, there's something calledloss of virgin, and it's the
idea that are people areactually twice as motivated to
avoid the pain of loss they asthey are to achieve the pleasure
of gain.

(16:56):
So sometimes framing things interms of what they're gonna miss
out on Is is actually moremotivating than framing things
in terms of what they can gain,you know?
Mm.
so it's oh, if you write If youwrite the book now you'll get
lots of readers and you'll sellmore books.
Alright?
That's a that's a great, thoseare two great reasons, if but if
you flip it and say, if you failto write the book now and you

Allison (17:16):
and you hold off until later,

Nancy (17:18):
you won't get

Allison (17:19):
get as many readers, you won't sell as many books.
You're gonna lose out on youraudience and on the economic.
Opportunity

Nancy (17:25):
That's even

Allison (17:26):
that's even more motivating because people are

Nancy (17:29):
as

Allison (17:29):
twice as motivated to avoid the pain of loss as they
are to achieve the pleasure ofbeing.

Nancy (17:33):
I say that, And when I say that, I always hasten to add
that, saying I'm not saying thatwe walk away from benefits.
I'm not saying we should be,Negative.
Nancy.
I'm not saying we should benegative Nancy.
but, but a little well placedloss aversion can go a long,
long, we Talk we still benefits,reasons you should writing the
book now, But we wanna pepper ina little bit of loss aversion.
Here are the reason just youwriting it now and you

Allison (17:53):
You really shouldn't wait, because if you wait,
you're gonna miss out on

Nancy (17:56):
your

Allison (17:56):
part of your audience and you're not gonna sell as
many books,

Nancy (17:58):
and you're

Allison (17:59):
Oh alright.
You have that nice balance.

Nancy (18:01):
And And that can be very motivating.

Allison (18:03):
Right.
You're not gonna sell as manybooks or if you are starting a
newsletter, a LinkedInnewsletter.
I love LinkedIn and I love theLinkedIn newsletters.
If you're starting that, a lotof times it's the starting, it's
the getting someone to decidethey're gonna write the book or
decide they're gonna start theirnewsletter or just decide.

(18:24):
And they've already beendelaying because they don't know
how to move forward.
They don't know what the pathis.
So I think what you're saying isso applicable to experts who
know that they maybe want tostart a business and they don't

(18:45):
wanna work for their corporationforever and ever, 60 hours a
week.
So maybe they were gonna cutback and start consulting.
But they have to pull thetrigger and start.
It's the starting that doesn'treally happen on one day.
It's the delay and theprocrastination that precedes

(19:07):
the starting.
And I think if we point peopleto that, whether it's the
promise of your book, if you'rewriting a self-help book, if
you've already postponeddeveloping better relationships,
you've missed out on having goodfriends surround you in tough

(19:27):
times, now's the time that youcan take the action.
Especially because what it feelsto not have that support.
That's just an example of a waythat any author can speak to
their book and the promise oftheir book without saying, buy
the book.

(19:48):
Don't you know if these are yourproblems, you should buy the
book.
'cause nobody that, that kind ofsales pitch does not feel good
and it smells terrible.
Sure, Sure,

Nancy (19:57):
what we want want is for someone to buy the book, but
what they want is The thesolution to problems.
They don't wanna feel Feellonely anymore.
They wanna feel, they wannasurround themselves with good
people or they wanna feelempowered, whatever it is.
So we need to sell benefit, if

Allison (20:10):
if you will.

Nancy (20:11):
And I know,

Allison (20:12):
Oh, I used the four letter word sell, and I guess
that's a dirty word, but

Nancy (20:15):
What we wanna do is we wanna focus on The the benefit,
because that's what people arelooking for.
It's what am I gonna get out ofthis book?
If I pick it up and read it?
What am I gonna get out of thisnewsletter if I subscribe to it?
so if we focus on on that, if weexplain, this what is what it's
gonna deliver to you.
This is how you are gonnabenefit from it.
That That motivates people.
And

Allison (20:34):
and

Nancy (20:34):
you

Allison (20:34):
once you can get somebody to say yes to you once,

Nancy (20:37):
much

Allison (20:37):
they're much more likely to say yes a second time
or third time or fourth time.
If they

Nancy (20:41):
your bought your book, they're much more likely to
subscribe to your newsletter orvice versa.
If they subscribe to anewsletter and then you announce
you've got a book coming out,you're much more likely to then
buy the book.
You get Get that first.
Yes.
you're

Allison (20:50):
You're much more likely to get a second.
Yes.
A third yes.
Fourth yes.
Yes.
And it's all about decisionmaking shortcuts.
They

Nancy (20:55):
made the the decision to say yes to you once.
So when So when the secondopportunity arises, like they
like to be consistent with it.
And they also know that theydon't have to think it through
because they already theyalready made the decision.
So I don't have to decide, oh,Do I do I wanna say yes to this
person again?
It's oh yeah, I said to yes tothem before.
It's easy enough to say yes.
Again.
I don't have to vet them.

(21:15):
I don't have to go through thatwhole decision making

Allison (21:18):
right.

Nancy (21:18):
So so that's like a very handy theme for us to know, get
that first small.
Yes.
And very often it's the easiestto get the smaller.
Yes, you can escalate your yesesfrom there.
So it's a,

Allison (21:28):
Sure.
Even if it's a nonverbal Yes.
On a website, do you want tomake more money?
Do you want your kids to be setup for success?
This is how we need tocommunicate.
I even when you go to the doctorand they say, you really need to
get your flu shot that's notpersuasive of, a nagging

(21:54):
reminder.
It's, here are the benefits,here's how you are going to
protect yourself and your familyfrom getting awful sick, like
awfully sick.
And those two things together.
And now that we're talking aboutit, I think people are gonna see
it everywhere of it's not justwhen people are selling you a

(22:17):
course or a book or they wantyou to sign up for their, to get
their emails full of goodies andcat videos.
It's when you go to the doctor,these people are trying to
support you and they're alsousing decision making shortcuts,
especially when click with yournurse practitioner.

(22:40):
And then you go, yep, she'ssomebody I trust.
I will do anything she says ishow I feel about my new nurse
practitioner.

Nancy (22:48):
yeah, you're very lucky.

Allison (22:49):
she said, you need to get a colonoscopy.
You're like, five years toolate.
And I was like, fine.
And she said no.
Here's why.
And I was like, okay.
And you know what?
It's booked now.

Nancy (23:01):
Good.

Allison (23:01):
It's, this is not my, favorite thing to even think
about, but I believe her.
And so this is what I'm gonna bedoing.

Nancy (23:09):
Sure.
I was gonna say that is, thinkthink selling books is hard,
selling a colonoscopyappointment, that is hard,
right?
I know she had two things goingfor her.
She had your trust, right?
So she built that relationship,you trusted her.
You think of her as anauthority, and she's believable
to you.
And then she also, she said youshould book it and here's why,
and here will sign.
Just have found that when yougive people a reason why They're

Allison (23:31):
they're much more likely to do what you're asking
them to do.

Nancy (23:33):
instead So instead of her just saying, Allison, you need
to do this Allison, you need todo this because, dah,

Allison (23:38):
it will

Nancy (23:39):
great great chance that they'll screen out anything
dangerous way before it'sharmful, yeah.
Whatever the the reason

Allison (23:44):
reason is and you're like,

Nancy (23:45):
right.
Just having that reason why, andscientists actually identify the
word is what

Allison (23:50):
is what they call an automatic compliance.

Nancy (23:52):
When we

Allison (23:53):
When we see, hear it.

Nancy (23:54):
we

Allison (23:54):
We just start to

Nancy (23:55):
Agree, even before we fully process what comes next.
like It's like we hear that wordbecause, and it snaps us to
attention.
We're like, oh, somebody'sgiving us reason.
And it just puts us in anagreeable mind frame.
And researchers have found havefound that the reason why
doesn't always have to be thisIronclad

Allison (24:13):
bulletproof reason.

Nancy (24:13):
My my book and it will make you a billionaire
overnight.
That's an interesting reasonwhy.
If we could make that promise,we'd be selling books left and
right, but it's not.
True.
We can't make that promise, buteven if we said, buy my book,
because you'll

Allison (24:25):
you'll find some helpful information in it.
It's not, you're gonna become abillionaire overnight, but oh,
you'll get some helpfulinformation.
But just having that reason why

Nancy (24:33):
what's what's so important.
A researcher named Ellen Langerwho working at,

Allison (24:37):
at in our neck of the woods in Harvard

Nancy (24:39):
University in in Cambridge, and

Allison (24:40):
and there were people lined up to photocopier

Nancy (24:42):
and

Allison (24:43):
and she sent someone to a head of the line and she said,

Nancy (24:45):
She

Allison (24:45):
she instructed them to say, excuse me, can I cut in?

Nancy (24:47):
And And 60% of the time people could cut and then

Allison (24:50):
and then she sent someone to the head of the line
and she instructed them to say,excuse me, can I cut in front of
you

Nancy (24:54):
because I'm in a I'm in a hurry rate and I have some
copies to make, the and the 60%number goes up to 94%.
And we And we think, oh, it'sbecause they were, in a hurry
rate.
But Land Rover, repeat theexperiment.
Third time, send someone to thehead of the line instruct them
to

Allison (25:07):
them to say, excuse me, can I cut in front of you?
'cause I have some copies tomake.

Nancy (25:09):
The

Allison (25:10):
The 94% number only dropped to 93%.
Still a big lift over thatbaseline 60.

Nancy (25:15):
And if

Allison (25:15):
And if you think about it, everybody standing in that
line was standing in that line

Nancy (25:18):
because they

Allison (25:19):
they had some copies to, they

Nancy (25:21):
You don't

Allison (25:21):
don't stand in line at the photocopier to get a coffee.
It doesn't work that way.
But

Nancy (25:25):
Behavioral

Allison (25:26):
scientists identified that word because it's the
automatic compliance.
We just hear it.
We're like oh.
We start to say yes right away.
Providing that reason why

Nancy (25:33):
it,

Allison (25:33):
it, is very important.
And I think that's what yournurse practitioner did among
other things.
She also told you why, and

Nancy (25:39):
just makes us more likely to comply.

Allison (25:42):
And because is one word versus here's why you should
listen to me.
It's just more characters.
It's just, literary debris.
We don't need that.
You can just say, because.
So good decision shortcut.
Let me ask you about thedecision shortcut of text in a

(26:07):
button on websites.
I've noticed that these thingshave changed of, it used to say,
sign up for my emails, which PSno one should be using that
language.
It is boring.
And then the button would say,submit, which I don't even
understand.
And then it was, I don't know,click here.

(26:29):
Here.
Exactly.
And then it, but it's changed.
So what should we be doing now?
Yeah, so

Nancy (26:36):
Yeah.
So you're absolutely right.
When it started, it was likesubmit.
But But who wants to submit?
And it was like, click here.
That's kinda obvious.
So what we should be doing isthe button on our the copy, I'm
sorry, the copy on our buttonshould have a benefit.
what

Allison (26:48):
So what is.

Nancy (26:48):
get when you

Allison (26:49):
You submit, or when you click here, it's I want

Nancy (26:52):
Money

Allison (26:52):
money saving tips.
I wanna take my career to thenext level.

Nancy (26:56):
I

Allison (26:56):
I want to gain a 50% discount, whatever it is.
And if you can phrase it interms of the first person or, I
want this, or show me this orreserve my seat whatever.
If you can frame it in terms of,me

Nancy (27:08):
as

Allison (27:09):
as opposed to

Nancy (27:10):
you, That's also very

Allison (27:12):
very good.
So having the benefit and havingit in the first person

Nancy (27:16):
Makes a

Allison (27:16):
makes a lot of sense.
So why am I gonna sign up forthe newsletter?
'cause I'm gonna get helpfulwith tips.
Why am I gonna buy the book?
Because

Nancy (27:22):
it's

Allison (27:22):
'cause I'll learn how to surround myself with positive
people.
It's basically

Nancy (27:27):
focusing on on the benefit of the action that
they're gonna take.
So why would they take theaction?
It's because that's what they'regonna get.

Allison (27:34):
I'm gonna go through my website and change all the
buttons.
I think right now it's, sign meup.
But that's not really thebenefit.
It's What you want them to do,the owner of the website, you
want them to sign up.
So you say, Hey, sign off.
Click here, sign me up, downloadthis.
But But it

Nancy (27:50):
focus

Allison (27:50):
focus on

Nancy (27:51):
If

Allison (27:51):
the,

Nancy (27:51):
to your website.

Allison (27:52):
Am I

Nancy (27:53):
when I click

Allison (27:54):
Click You.

Nancy (27:54):
Weekly

Allison (27:55):
tips on

Nancy (27:56):
how to

Allison (27:56):
how to take my writing business to the next level or
whatever it turns out, to be,it's

Nancy (28:00):
okay.

Allison (28:01):
okay.
Yeah.
Claim my seat in the course, orwhatever that might be.
Or join.
The program actually help mehere.
If you are selling or offeringlike a program or a masterclass
or a free video series, whatwould people put on their
buttons then?

(28:22):
So that when people take action,they turn that into the benefit.

Nancy (28:26):
Yeah, so

Allison (28:27):
So I.

Nancy (28:27):
be

Allison (28:28):
It

Nancy (28:28):
could be

Allison (28:28):
could be

Nancy (28:29):
people like

Allison (28:29):
like me.
It could be if it's, if it's avideo they're saying, watch the
video.
What's the video about?
What's it gonna tell them?
Discover how to make more salesif it was a video about

Nancy (28:38):
selling,

Allison (28:39):
If it's a weekly newsletter with writing tips,
it's like

Nancy (28:43):
me how

Allison (28:43):
me how to be a better writer.

Nancy (28:45):
Or

Allison (28:45):
I wanna improve my writing.
Or I wanna take my writing tothe next level,

Nancy (28:48):
So it's

Allison (28:49):
So it's

Nancy (28:49):
instead of

Allison (28:49):
instead of saying sign up for the newsletter, it's like
the button would say I wannatake my writing to the next
level.
And that's what I would put,because that's what the
newsletter's gonna help me do.

Nancy (28:57):
it's a

Allison (28:57):
it's a newsletter about writing, for example.

Nancy (28:59):
right?

Allison (28:59):
Got it.
And I'm not hearing you say likeone tiny word, it's, I want to
do this or discover that, it's,

Nancy (29:10):
Yeah, longer.

Allison (29:10):
It used to be like one or two words.
And then it became two words.
We double it.

Nancy (29:14):
You

Allison (29:14):
but now you could do, 5, 6, 7, 8 words

Nancy (29:17):
and

Allison (29:17):
And still be very effective.
And in fact, you can be quiteeffective with that.

Nancy (29:21):
Short is

Allison (29:22):
is always nice where,

Nancy (29:23):
people

Allison (29:23):
people are

Nancy (29:24):
Their

Allison (29:24):
their attention span are shorter, or I shouldn't say
they're shorter, but theirattention is divided.
Yeah.
So crisp and clear and you.
Know you were saying earlier,just, that economy With your
word choice, But say what youneed to say to get the foot
across.
You're better off taking sevenwords and focusing on a benefit
than using two words.
Click here and

Nancy (29:42):
It's

Allison (29:43):
it's nice and short and everyone can read it, but no
one's motivated to do it.

Nancy (29:46):
Take,

Allison (29:47):
two or three times as many words,

Nancy (29:48):
but prompt

Allison (29:50):
them, motivate them to do what you want them to do.

Nancy (29:52):
everyone's gonna be

Allison (29:53):
gonna be better off.
It reminds people of

Nancy (29:55):
why

Allison (29:56):
why they're making the decision

Nancy (29:57):
it

Allison (29:57):
and it motivates them to make the decision

Nancy (29:59):
So, you

Allison (30:00):
right.
it's a win win.
Oh my gosh, this is so good.
So what's one big change nowthat you're seeing recently on
how people are improvingengagement in their content in
general?
You know, even on podcasts likethis one.
We didn't list all of yourprofessional accomplishments,

(30:24):
but you are sharing tips thatare actionable.
So I wanna translate that, ifyou would, into a change that
you see people making and howthey show up and get engaged.

Nancy (30:43):
Yeah, think, I think one of the.
That's that's motivating peopleand that marketers, for lack for
lack of a better term you'veestablished the fact that you
are all marketers in what way,shape, or form, whether it's, a

Allison (30:53):
as a parent, as

Nancy (30:54):
a a business professional as a friend, but we're all
marketing in one way or another.
But of

Allison (30:59):
one of the things that I see

Nancy (31:00):
being

Allison (31:01):
being used are very I wouldn't say very often, but
when it is used, it's being usedvery effectively

Nancy (31:06):
the

Allison (31:06):
is the idea of information gap theory,

Nancy (31:08):
And

Allison (31:09):
and it's this notion that if there's a gap between
what you know and what you wannaknow,

Nancy (31:13):
you'll

Allison (31:14):
you'll take action to close the gap.

Nancy (31:15):
A

Allison (31:16):
a great way to tee up an information gap is to use the
five Ws and the one H who, what,where, when, why, and how.
Because if I can offerinformation that you're
interested in but you don't havethe answer to,

Nancy (31:27):
much

Allison (31:27):
much more likely to

Nancy (31:28):
tune into

Allison (31:29):
into the

Nancy (31:30):
podcast, to

Allison (31:31):
to sign up for the webinar.
To enroll in the masterclass tobuy the book, right?
Because it's oh, I don't know,

Nancy (31:36):
What's

Allison (31:37):
what's gonna be the hottest trend in

Nancy (31:39):
in,

Allison (31:39):
In books for 2025?

Nancy (31:41):
I don't

Allison (31:41):
I don't know.

Nancy (31:42):
I'm gonna

Allison (31:42):
I'm gonna find out.
Where can I get the best pizzain the North end?

Nancy (31:45):
I don't

Allison (31:45):
I wanna find out.

Nancy (31:46):
So

Allison (31:47):
so it's like teeing up those

Nancy (31:49):
of

Allison (31:49):
bits of information where I'm interested in the
subject, I'm interested inwriting in books, or I'm
interested in pizza.
But I don't know.

Nancy (31:55):
And so by,

Allison (31:56):
Teeing up this gap in the information we can prompt
people to take action.

Nancy (32:00):
Who,

Allison (32:00):
who, what, where, when, why, how, which, The best, the
worst, the least the most,certain Like the, the

Nancy (32:07):
The

Allison (32:08):
the most effective technique to get the bank to
approver

Nancy (32:11):
loan,

Allison (32:12):
the

Nancy (32:12):
most often overlooked.
Technique that will get someoneto Give up give up their seat on
the bus.
I don't know.
I don't know.
You know what I mean?
But it's

Allison (32:19):
Yeah, it could be anything but that makes it
raises a question versus justproviding three things you
should do every time you get ona bus.
If you're not already lookingfor that, but just you posing it
is that's how magazines writeheadlines as well,

Nancy (32:38):
yeah.

Allison (32:38):
because it makes you lean in.

Nancy (32:41):
That's That's exactly right.
You're standing there in thesupermarket checkout line and
you're looking at all thosenewspapers on the raft next to
you and, Those little mini miniheadlines, those little snippets
and call outs, they're designedto attract attention because
they're hoping that you'll pickit pick it up and, read it and
buy it.
I

Allison (32:56):
I think Robert Bly, who's A well-known marketing
copywriter and also an author,

Nancy (33:00):
think he

Allison (33:00):
I think he refers to them as fascinations.
But it's almost like you'refascinated by it.
Yeah.

Nancy (33:04):
What is that?

Allison (33:05):
Yeah.

Nancy (33:06):
you in.

Allison (33:06):
You have to find the answer.

Nancy (33:07):
So

Allison (33:07):
But I think information gap is being used very
effectively these days.

Nancy (33:10):
think the

Allison (33:11):
think the other thing that

Nancy (33:12):
we need

Allison (33:12):
we need to think about as we're

Nancy (33:14):
trying

Allison (33:14):
trying to get people to engage with

Nancy (33:15):
whatever it is

Allison (33:16):
it is we're offering our books, our newsletters, our
courses.

Nancy (33:19):
Is the

Allison (33:19):
is the idea of cognitive fluency.

Nancy (33:21):
and.

Allison (33:22):
when behavioral scientists talk about cognitive
fluency, what they're talkingabout is the fact that people
prefer things that are easier tothink about and easier to
understand.
Not only do they prefer themthey have a tendency to, to
believe that they're moreaccurate, they're more
believable, they're morecredible.
And as a result, you can be more

Nancy (33:37):
persuasive when

Allison (33:38):
when people believe you.
They're open to being persuaded

Nancy (33:41):
and they

Allison (33:41):
and they also have an easier time making decisions.
About things that are

Nancy (33:44):
cognitively fluent,

Allison (33:45):
fluent, things that are easier to understand.
And

Nancy (33:47):
At the

Allison (33:48):
at the end of the day, we want people to make
decisions.
We don't want them

Nancy (33:50):
walk

Allison (33:50):
walk away without signing up, without enrolling,
without, subscribing or buying.
We want them to make a decision.

Nancy (33:56):
So the idea of

Allison (33:57):
the idea of cognitive fluency really comes down to

Nancy (34:00):
making

Allison (34:01):
information accessible.
So instead of using the 75 centword, use the 25 cent word

Nancy (34:06):
of

Allison (34:06):
of taking,

Nancy (34:07):
a

Allison (34:07):
A paragraph to say something, say it in a sentence.
Instead of writing at a PhDlevel, write at maybe a

Nancy (34:13):
grade

Allison (34:14):
grade or ninth grade level, But just make it easy to
understand.

Nancy (34:17):
Where

Allison (34:17):
where I see sometimes people making a mistake is in a
B2B environment where they'retargeting a professional
audience, a sophisticatedaudience,

Nancy (34:25):
highly

Allison (34:26):
a highly educated audience, and they think, ah,
You know what?
I have to be speaking at thatlevel, and I have to use the
right buzzwords and the jargon

Nancy (34:32):
the

Allison (34:32):
and the acronyms.
I have to demonstrate that, I'mat that level.

Nancy (34:36):
And

Allison (34:36):
Research has shown that even among, PhDs, the preference
is

Nancy (34:41):
easily

Allison (34:41):
for easily accessible language.
Don't make me think, don't makeme work too hard.

Nancy (34:45):
Paragraph upon

Allison (34:46):
upon paragraph when you can say something in a couple of
sentences.
Don't use a really long wordswhen a simple short word will
do.
Just make it easy for people tograsp your content, to grasp the
information, and

Nancy (34:58):
gonna

Allison (34:58):
gonna be much more likely to get the response
you're looking for.
So helpful, especially whenwe're experts in our fields, we
want to often showcase andsometimes I come across this
sometimes where someone will saypeople really need to do this
and here's why.

(35:19):
Or they don't need to knoweverything.
You don't need to explain howthe brain works or why your
method is so effective.
We just want the method.
We don't.
That's for you.
You can keep that but we don'tneed to know how the ingredients
were made.
We just need to know.

(35:40):
The person only needs to knowenough.
To take action whatever that is,how car works.
I just wanna be able to drive itfrom point A to point B.
I get the basics.
You put the gasoline in, you

Nancy (35:51):
turn

Allison (35:52):
turn it on, you steer, you get right.

Nancy (35:54):
accelerator and the brake.
But everything

Allison (35:56):
else, the internal combustion engine and the

Nancy (35:58):
and

Allison (35:58):
and pinion steering,

Nancy (36:00):
I don't

Allison (36:00):
I don't need to know.

Nancy (36:01):
don't I don't have to know.
I dunno.

Allison (36:02):
Right.

Nancy (36:03):
You

Allison (36:03):
You know?
Yeah.
I mean that whole, like howevermany horsepower and zero to 60
in whatever seconds I don'tcare.
Is it safe?
Is it Does it work?
Will it go when I press theaccelerator?
I'm a simple woman, just will itwork?

Nancy (36:22):
It's I don't need to

Allison (36:23):
Need to know the, I just need to know that I can
rely on it.
Because that's what we'rebuying.

Nancy (36:26):
buying a

Allison (36:27):
buying a car.
I need to rely on it to get, youknow where I want to go.
I need to know it's safe to putmyself and my family in.
Yeah.
So again, it goes back to whatwe were talking about earlier.
You don't have to tell'emeverything,

Nancy (36:38):
You don't

Allison (36:38):
and you don't even have to tell'em all the stuff.

Nancy (36:39):
You

Allison (36:40):
you just have to focus on what it is they

Nancy (36:42):
want.

Allison (36:43):
They're looking to buy a car.
They're not necessarily lookingfor horsepower.
Maybe some people are but a lotof people aren't.
They're looking for safety.
Looking for reliability.

Nancy (36:51):
Maybe they're

Allison (36:51):
Sometimes safety equals, zero to 60 and fewer
seconds.
Because in Massachusetts andBoston where I live, and I think
you are here too, but on theother side of Boston, the on and
off ramps are condensed.
So you have no time to go from.

(37:16):
Five miles an hour to 70 milesan hour and your car better go,
or it will feel like you'reabout to get run over.

Nancy (37:25):
Yeah.

Allison (37:26):
And who, if there are any highway designers out there,
do better.
Come on.
But that to me is safety.

Nancy (37:36):
Sure.

Allison (37:36):
Yeah.
I,

Nancy (37:37):
friend

Allison (37:37):
my friend Pauline,

Nancy (37:38):
occasionally she'll be

Allison (37:39):
She'll say, you know what?
If anyone ever pulled me over, Iwould just explain that if I
were going any slower, I wouldbe rear-ended.
Because it's like you sometimesyou have to be able to move at
the speed of traffic and

Nancy (37:48):
whether

Allison (37:48):
whether or not,

Nancy (37:49):
You

Allison (37:49):
you happen to want to be at that speed, you have to,
like you said, if you don't pullon to that on-ramp quickly
enough,

Nancy (37:55):
you'll get

Allison (37:55):
you'll get into an accident or you'll cause an
accident.

Nancy (37:57):
You

Allison (37:58):
Yeah.
So sometimes speed is safety.
You're absolutely right.
Yeah.
Alright, Nancy.
This is we're wrapping up now,but I want to make sure that you
get to tell people what not todo.
What is a popular tactic when itcomes to marketing that's no
longer working?

(38:18):
Keep us from making mistakes,please.

Nancy (38:20):
Okay.
So we've

Allison (38:21):
Okay.
So we talked about the fact thatwe shouldn't go on and on,

Nancy (38:23):
we've

Allison (38:24):
and we talked about the fact that we shouldn't use

Nancy (38:26):
a

Allison (38:26):
a 75 cent word when a 25 cent word will do.

Nancy (38:29):
We've

Allison (38:29):
we've talked about the fact that

Nancy (38:31):
only

Allison (38:32):
focusing on benefits

Nancy (38:33):
Isn't the

Allison (38:34):
the best move because you wanna weave in a little bit
of loss aversion.
We've talked earlier about thefact that providing choices

Nancy (38:40):
smart.
If you

Allison (38:41):
If you give people one option and say, this is what you
should do,

Nancy (38:43):
they're

Allison (38:44):
they're not nearly as likely

Nancy (38:45):
to

Allison (38:46):
to make a decision

Nancy (38:47):
as

Allison (38:47):
as if you give them two options and say, which do you
prefer?
Here's one more piece of advicethat people are gonna find,
maybe a little counter.
Intuitive, but they shouldembrace it or they should at
least test it because it doeswork.

Nancy (38:58):
You

Allison (39:00):
tell people what you want them to do, you ask them to
do it.
So you've explained,

Nancy (39:02):
Here's

Allison (39:03):
here's my book.

Nancy (39:03):
You'll be

Allison (39:04):
You'll be able to gain all this, particular information
from it.

Nancy (39:06):
And

Allison (39:06):
And then

Nancy (39:07):
you say,

Allison (39:08):
you say, so here's where you can buy it

Nancy (39:09):
and

Allison (39:10):
and you end with,

Nancy (39:11):
but the

Allison (39:11):
but the choice is yours

Nancy (39:13):
Allison, you would

Allison (39:14):
You would say to me, wait a minute,

Nancy (39:15):
Why would

Allison (39:15):
why would you do that?
Like you just set this wholething in motion.
You've explained your product,you have your book, your
newsletter, your masterclass.

Nancy (39:22):
talked

Allison (39:23):
talked about all the great things you gain in it,

Nancy (39:25):
and you've

Allison (39:25):
and you've told people how to

Nancy (39:26):
sign up

Allison (39:27):
up or enroll or buy,

Nancy (39:29):
and

Allison (39:29):
and then why would you undo it at the end and say, but
you know what?
It's up to you.
The choice is yours.

Nancy (39:33):
But

Allison (39:33):
But research shows that

Nancy (39:35):
when you

Allison (39:35):
when you remind people that they're the ones making a
decision,

Nancy (39:39):
They

Allison (39:40):
they are on average twice as likely.

Nancy (39:42):
what you're

Allison (39:43):
What you're asking them to do.

Nancy (39:44):
it

Allison (39:44):
And it goes back to this idea of autonomy bias.
We all like to feel like we'remaking a call, we're in charge.
We're not being forced.

Nancy (39:51):
And

Allison (39:51):
And so when you make your marketing presentation,
your sales pitch, yourpersuasive argument, whatever
you wanna call it, you know whenyou

Nancy (39:57):
that

Allison (39:57):
that out there and then you end with, but

Nancy (39:59):
know the

Allison (40:00):
the choice is yours.
It's up to you, it's your call.

Nancy (40:02):
You

Allison (40:03):
You actually will be more likely to get people to
make the decision you're hopingthey'll make than if you just
stop before that and say, sohere's what I want.
So very interesting tactic, butI encourage your listeners to
check it out because it works.
I am going to incorporate thatin my website pages.
Thank you for that.

(40:23):
That's a gem.
Okay, let's pivot for a secondbecause I wanna talk about the
book that you said that youcan't wait to read.
Can you share with us your bookReco?

Nancy (40:37):
Yes.

Allison (40:37):
Yes.
So I have one that I juststarted and one that is teed up
right behind me.
Is it okay to talk about e?
Sure, yes.
Alright.

Nancy (40:44):
I have

Allison (40:44):
So I have just started Audacious by Mark Shafer

Nancy (40:48):
and,

Allison (40:49):
The full title is Audacious, how Humans Win

Nancy (40:51):
AI

Allison (40:51):
AI Marketing World.

Nancy (40:53):
Mark

Allison (40:53):
And Mark Shafer is awesome.
He has written several books,belonging to the Brand.
Is one of'em.
He's a futurist,

Nancy (40:59):
he's a

Allison (41:00):
he's a speaker, he's an author.

Nancy (41:01):
community builder.

Allison (41:03):
He wrote belonging to the brand

Nancy (41:04):
he's just,

Allison (41:05):
he said,

Nancy (41:05):
his

Allison (41:05):
but his latest one, audacious

Nancy (41:07):
all

Allison (41:07):
all about

Nancy (41:09):
to

Allison (41:09):
how to stand out in today's world.
So not only is there all of thiscompetition out there,

Nancy (41:14):
artificial

Allison (41:15):
intelligence, AI is increasing it because it's
making it easier for people togenerate content.
And there's just more and morestuff out there and everyone is
being bombarded.

Nancy (41:25):
You need

Allison (41:25):
You need to stand out if you wanna sell your book or
get people in your masterclassor get'em to.
To

Nancy (41:29):
visit

Allison (41:30):
visit your website and you have to figure out a way to
stand out.

Nancy (41:32):
mark

Allison (41:32):
Mark Schafer

Nancy (41:33):
Has

Allison (41:34):
has figured it out and he's got it in this book, and
I've started reading it and it'sfabulous.
I can't wait to finish it.
And then teed up right behindAudacious

Nancy (41:41):
is

Allison (41:41):
is Veronica Romney's Identity Marketing.

Nancy (41:44):
And I had an

Allison (41:45):
I had an opportunity to meet Veronica at a conference.
We became friends.
I spoke on her podcast.
She's a phenomenal marketer with

Nancy (41:53):
such

Allison (41:54):
incredible experience and.

Nancy (41:56):
she has

Allison (41:57):
has just recently wrote, written this book.
It's the reason I haven't readit yet.
It literally just came out.
It came out

Nancy (42:02):
right

Allison (42:02):
right after Marx.

Nancy (42:03):
called

Allison (42:03):
called Identity Marketing, how to Create Loyal
Lifelong Fans, and a Legendarybrand

Nancy (42:09):
No

Allison (42:09):
no matter what you sell or the size of your budget.

Nancy (42:12):
So this is

Allison (42:14):
is for all of us, for the people.
Wow.
The people with the big budgetsand the big well known brands,
and the people who are juststarting out and who are,
bootstrapping it.

Nancy (42:22):
She has all the

Allison (42:25):
the.
Tactics and techniques that weneed to use

Nancy (42:28):
in

Allison (42:29):
in order to create a brand for ourselves and to,

Nancy (42:31):
To,

Allison (42:32):
to stand out and to create those long-term
relationships

Nancy (42:35):
are

Allison (42:35):
that are gonna

Nancy (42:36):
fuel us

Allison (42:36):
us and in service well into the future.

Nancy (42:38):
So

Allison (42:39):
So those are the two books that I'm

Nancy (42:40):
excitedly working through.

Allison (42:42):
through it.
I've started Marks and I saidright behind it.

Nancy (42:45):
I.
Veronica's.
So

Allison (42:47):
I'm Veronica.

Nancy (42:47):
set for the

Allison (42:48):
For the next

Nancy (42:49):
it takes me

Allison (42:49):
takes me a while to read only because I'm so busy.
I feel like I'm a slow reader,but finding the time to actually
sit down and read usuallyhappens on an airplane, or

Nancy (42:56):
I'm

Allison (42:57):
if I'm lucky enough in the summer to be sitting on the
beach.
So I'm good for the next coupleof months with these two, but
I'm really excited to getthrough them because lots of
great information in both.
I wanna point out other one'cause in our preparation for
this, I think you owe youanother one.
I'm so sorry.
You did.
You mentioned Ellen Langer hasanother book coming out, right?

Nancy (43:18):
Yes.

Allison (43:19):
So Ellen Langer.
Ellen.
Yes.
I'm so sorry.

Nancy (43:22):
should have,

Allison (43:22):
should have, I

Nancy (43:23):
that's what I told you ahead of time.

Allison (43:24):
completely forgot because these two new ones just
came out.
So Ellen excited about these,

Nancy (43:28):
But,

Allison (43:29):
but last summer I had the opportunity to meet

Nancy (43:31):
Ellen Langer of

Allison (43:32):
of the,

Nancy (43:32):
because.

Allison (43:34):
research from Harvard University.

Nancy (43:35):
The photocopier, Because I'm in

Allison (43:37):
yeah.

Nancy (43:37):
I've got

Allison (43:37):
I've got some copies to make.
It's the same Ellen Langer.

Nancy (43:40):
And,

Allison (43:40):
And

Nancy (43:41):
Quote that,

Allison (43:42):
that that research in my book and I quote it when I
speak at conferences

Nancy (43:45):
and my

Allison (43:46):
my opportunity to meet her, I was like over the moon,
but she was doing this reallysmall

Nancy (43:52):
presentation

Allison (43:53):
In true message,

Nancy (43:54):
which is

Allison (43:54):
which is way at the end of cod.

Nancy (43:56):
And I

Allison (43:57):
and I just happened to notice, I.

Nancy (43:58):
my God, the Ellen Langer is gonna

Allison (44:00):
Was gonna be speaking here in

Nancy (44:01):
so

Allison (44:01):
So I quickly bought a ticket and was able to meet her,
had a picture taken with herspoke with her and then picked
up her new book, which is allabout

Nancy (44:08):
just

Allison (44:09):
just health

Nancy (44:10):
and

Allison (44:10):
and being healthy and the mind body connection.

Nancy (44:13):
she's

Allison (44:14):
she's

Nancy (44:14):
it's

Allison (44:14):
it's almost a misnomer to talk about it as a mind body
connection because it suggeststhat those are two things that
are connected.
But you said they're really

Nancy (44:23):
Part of

Allison (44:23):
part of the same hole.
Huh?
And so much of what?
We think Impacts our health.
And she was quick to add, I'mnot saying that people who are
sick because it's their fault.
I, that is, please don't takethat message from this.

Nancy (44:33):
not

Allison (44:34):
But what I am saying is

Nancy (44:35):
how we

Allison (44:36):
how we think about our health and our bodies,

Nancy (44:38):
we

Allison (44:38):
how we think about limitations versus possibilities
all can impact

Nancy (44:42):
our

Allison (44:42):
our health.
And

Nancy (44:43):
I was

Allison (44:44):
I was just so psyched to hear her speak, to meet her,

Nancy (44:47):
buy

Allison (44:47):
buy her book, and.

Nancy (44:48):
I

Allison (44:48):
And I am partway through that book too.
I haven't finished that oneeither,

Nancy (44:51):
but

Allison (44:52):
but so

Nancy (44:52):
you

Allison (44:52):
thank you for reminding me about that.
Is

Nancy (44:54):
actually

Allison (44:55):
she's sitting on my

Nancy (44:56):
stand.

Allison (44:56):
But down here by my computer I have these other two
that just came in.
So there you go.
You're listening.
Got a three.
I know.
A three, four.
This is amazing.
Just I'm gonna make sure thateverybody has the links to these
at bookshop.org in the shownotes and all of your tips
today.
Now, where can people find youand follow your genius?

(45:21):
I can Find me.
I can tell you where they canfind me.
I'm not sure there's all agenius to follow that I am
certain there is.
But you can find me.
I'm, I'm on the socials, right?
So I'm on LinkedIn,

Nancy (45:30):
I'm on I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Blue blue
Sky.
Can

Allison (45:34):
you can also find me at my agency's website because.
Co-founded an advertisingmarketing agency called Hbt
Marketing.
HBT stands for Human BehaviorTriggers,

Nancy (45:43):
it's and it's hbt mktg.com.
And I would and I would love tohear from any of your listeners,
drop me an email or connect withme online.
can You can find my book at onAmazon.
You can find it@ganpage.com.
You can find it at page, we canfind it at Barnes and Noble.
It's pretty much any, anywhereFind it.
And Would, I'd and I really loveit.
Oh,

Allison (46:02):
Thank you so much.
I really love it.
I'm such a fan girl

Nancy (46:06):
And this and this is such, I praise coming from you.
Okay, so Thank very muchAllison.

Allison (46:11):
Thank you.

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How to Write Button Copy that Converts Book Sales with Nancy Harhut | Ep. 56

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}How to Write Button Copy that Converts Book Sales with Nancy Harhut | Ep. 56