From Garage to Grammy Nominations: The Music & Money Journey of Pillar

The podcast delves into the multifaceted life of Michael 'Kalel' Wittig, whose journey as a musician transcends mere performance. His leadership in the business aspects of Pillar showcases a pivotal understanding of the music industry's dynamics, particularly in the context of financial management.

Wittig shares candid insights about the challenges faced by musicians, emphasizing the importance of resilience and adaptability in navigating the tumultuous waters of the music business. He reflects on the band's strategic decisions, including the choice to focus on regional recognition before expanding their reach, thereby establishing a solid foundation that would support their later success.

Furthermore, Wittig discusses the significance of communication within the band, highlighting how improved interpersonal dynamics could have altered the course of their history. The episode serves as a poignant reminder that the journey of a musician is not merely about artistry but also about the intricate business acumen that underpins their success.

www.pillarmusic.com

Pillar Facebook & Instagram: @pillarmusic

Michael Wittig Instagram: @wittigworks

Michael Wittig Facebook: @michaelwittig

Backstage Money Facebook & Instagram: @backstagemoney

Grab your free e-book, A Musicians Guide to Infinite Banking at www.1024weath.com/music

Episode Transcript

Jason K Powers (00:13):
Welcome to Backstage Money, real World Finance for Musicians.
I'm your host, Jason K. Powers.
This is where music and moneycollide honest stories and practical
lessons from people who make it work.
Let's get to it.
Today I am joined by MichaelKalel, bassist for the band Pillar
Hard Rock Band behind songs likeFireproof and The Reckoning,

(00:33):
which earned Grammy nominations.
A pillar released ninestudio albums, three eps.
And what do you got?
24 whopping singles.
That's a lot.
And you guys won multiple Dove Awards,even has an exciting announcement
here at the end of the show, which I'mexcited to share with everybody too.
Michael Offstage, he's evenbeen a business owner involved
in fitness acting modeling.

(00:55):
There's no grass growing under your feet.
Welcome to the show, Michael.

Michael Kalel Wittig (00:59):
Hey, thanks for having me, Jason.
And as far as all the stats,you know better than me, man.
A lot of that stuff I forgot.
So thanks for the reminder.

Jason K Powers (01:06):
Yeah, that's, that's awesome, man.
What do you not do?
Is there anything you don't do?
I was, I was reading up on youa little bit and you're, you got
your hands in quite a few things.
You know,

Michael Kalel Wittig (01:14):
I, I'm not very good at fixing things or working on my car.

Jason K Powers (01:19):
There

Michael Kalel Wittig (01:19):
you go.
I can make a mean hamburger and a steakthough, and I'm a pretty good dad, but

Jason K Powers (01:23):
there you go.
There you go.
Well, Michael, hey, before we getinto the, the nitty gritty of stuff,
I always love to hear from people,you know, how did you get started?
How did you get into music?
You know, I heard there was maybe evena little bit of a, a Bill and Ted story
in there somewhere way back when too.

Michael Kalel Wittig (01:42):
Yeah, man.
That's exactly how it happened.
So back when I was about 15 or so.
Man, I saw that movie Bill and Ted'sExcellent Adventure came out and just
really inspired me to, to wanna learnto play electric guitar, you know, so
I, I just thought about it a lot and.
It took a little bit, but I finallytalked my mom into get me a guitar.
And my worship pastor, his name wasChris at our little local church in

(02:06):
Southern California that I went totaught me how to play and I started
playing on the worship team at church.
And of all the denominations, itwas a Lutheran church as well, which
you normally wouldn't think have a.They would have a worship band with
an electric guitar, but they did

Jason K Powers (02:21):
Uhhuh
'Michael Kalel Wittig: cause the worship leader, his dad was the pastor.
So I, that's how I learned how to play.
And at an early age, even 15, 16, Iwas the guy putting the bands together.
I'd find other musicianswe'd practice in my garage.
You know, I'd try to book localshows and it just built from there.
And it's something I alwayshad a heart for and knew.
I just knew that it waswhat I was supposed to do.

(02:44):
You know, it seemed like a long shotand I had no idea what I was doing,
especially back then, but I justkept at it and, 'cause I just knew
in my heart it was, it was gonnalead somewhere and it eventually did.
That's awesome.
And you, you hear that quite abit from, from band members and.
Who, who are really making it, who'vemade it kind of, you know, and, and
made a career out of it at some point.
And, and that is a, a common theme, right?

(03:07):
Just early on it was like, I, Ireally just knew, you know, and
you have that, that hardwiredpassion, I would say, right?
This you were, you weredesigned that way, you know?

Michael Kalel Wittig (03:18):
Yeah.
I just never gave up.
I mean, that's really the secret.

Jason K Powers (03:21):
Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig (03:21):
You, there's no one way to, to make, to break a band.
There is no one way.
There's, there's so many ways.
Every band can have their own path.
But the real key is just not to give up.
You're gonna hit a lot of roadblocksand a lot of things are gonna go wrong.
Your van or your bus is gonna break down.
Your show's gonna get canceled,someone's not gonna pay you.
Band members are gonna quit.
You're gonna fight.
Just, all that stuff's goingto happen at some point.

Jason K Powers (03:43):
Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig (03:43):
You just have to decide not to quit because
you learn from each experience.
And if it's what you're meant to do,you know, it'll eventually happen.

Jason K Powers (03:50):
That's great.
So take me back and, and you're inhigh school and, and trying to start
your own bands and things like this.
How did, how did.
Pillar in particular get started.

Michael Kalel Wittig (04:01):
I was always doing Christian bands when I was younger in
Riverside, California, in high school.
Eventually when I graduated highschool, my mom moved us to Kansas
'cause that's where she was raised.
Middle of nowhere, Kansas too.
Like a town of 5,000 people.
I'm talking brick roads.
The roads there, the carsdrove on, were bricks.
There's still bricks right now out there.

(04:23):
In, in that town.
There was no Christian musicians,so I just jammed with the guys that
were there, you know, and we justdid, you know, whatever, whatever
we could do, just secular stuff.
There really wasn't places to play.
So we were just writing and tryingto, trying to put bands together.
And I eventually put a band together.
Called Mishap.
We were just playing rock and justplaying local clubs and stuff.

(04:45):
Eventually we got booked at afestival in Dighton, Kansas.
Small town out in the middle of nowhere.
But this young promoter had all thesebands booked and put on a great event.
And that same day that my bandmishap played, a brand new
band called Pillar was playing.
Now, they didn't havea bass player though.
Okay.
At the time, and there was earlymembers and I remember talking to

(05:07):
Rob, I met Rob, our singer thatday and we were talking and he is
like, yeah, we need a bass player.
And I remember watching themthinking, wow, they're really good.
He has a good voice.
I saw a lot of potential there.
And he said, yeah, wecould use a bass player.
And they had just started.
So I set my thought about and prayedabout, and I remember driving from college
to my apartment and just getting reallyjust hit in the heart, you know, by God

(05:30):
that, hey, you need to be in Pillar.
So I pulled over and had to justfeel that and think about it.
And the band that I startedmishap, basically, if I'm not in
that band, that band breaks up.
So I had to call those guysand say, you know what?
I'm so sorry guys.
I, I'm gonna leave this band and join thisband Pillar and, I took on that base roll
and kind of kept my mouth shut early on.

(05:50):
But soon the business sideof me couldn't be contained.
And I was like, okay guys, weneed press kits, we need photos.
I'm gonna start booking shows.
I started just, you know, puttingeveryone to work when it came to
marketing and business and, you know,kind of everyone fell in their role
at that point and that's when theband really started getting busy.

Jason K Powers (06:10):
Yeah.
So, so let's talk about that for a minute.
You know, before the show started,we were talking about kind of.
The, the many hats you wear and haveworn throughout your pillar career.
So, so break that down for me.
Like how did that pan out for, for you?
I mean, what were you doing early on?
How did that transition as youguys got bigger and, and what role

Michael Kalel Wittig (06:30):
you

Jason K Powers (06:30):
playing now?
Maybe kind of take usthrough the whole process.

Michael Kalel Wittig (06:33):
So first I need to put a disclaimer that every band
member has their role and their vital.
It wasn't a Michael Kelleshow, not by any means.
I had my roles, but the band wouldn't haveworked without everybody doing their part.
My part, I have always been gifted withjust marketing business, booking shows.
That's just kind of been my specialty.
I have a drive for it, and Ialways did, even at that young age.

(06:56):
Now also, I want everybody to rememberthat the music business 20 years ago
back, we started the band in 1999 andstarted getting big traction in 2000.
Music business 25 years ago isa lot different than it is now.
So when we started, I didn't have a laptopand I didn't even have a cell phone.
I was going to the computer lab at schooland eventually I got a a home computer.

(07:19):
At our apartment or our little house, bandhouse that we had and had a big computer
and was using a landline, or I was ona payphone if we're out doing shows.
So doing business back thenwas completely different game.
You know, I was mailing physicalpress kits, you know, mailing people
cassettes and CDs through the mail,because that's just how you did it.
It was right before EPK startedcoming out, but once that technology

(07:42):
was being utilized for booking,yeah, we started using it.
But back then it was.
First of all, making our band look aspresentable as possible, you know, so
trying to have a photo shoot, you know,having press materials made up a press
kit back then, which I actually had aphysical copy, and then eventually EPK,
having that materials, doing researchon where we could play, you know, we

(08:05):
started within the state of Kansas.
Small towns, schools, churches,bowling alleys, it didn't
matter any place we could play.
I spent most of my day researching thesevenues and then contacting them and you
know, and just presenting the band aprofessional manner and getting us booked.
So when we were in collegeand still independent.

(08:25):
We played enough shows every weekendwhere we eventually quit our jobs, so
we didn't have to work at Pizza Hutor Walmart where everyone was working.
So we were able to do that becausewe were playing enough shows.
We played, you know, six toeight shows, 10 shows a month
while going to college and.
Eventually we, we kind ofsaturated Kansas and started
playing the surrounding states.

(08:46):
So my idea was for us to be reallyknown in the Midwest in Kansas and
the Midwest versus playing everywhereand nobody knowing who we are.
You know, we tried to be a beacon of lightin the Kansas versus little blips all over
that no one's gonna ever notice or see.
It was easier to get noticed.

(09:07):
In a place like Kansas where youwouldn't think what's going on in
Kansas, but if you're the abandonedin Kansas, it can, it can, those waves
will get heard in LA and New York.

Jason K Powers (09:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig (09:19):
So when we were, when we finished school and we decided,
okay, we were playing enough showsthat we can actually pay our bills
now, and then we got signed duringthat time, before we actually really
took off nationally with a label.
Though I had us booked six,six weeks on a six week tour
that we booked into in-house.

(09:40):
We did everything in house.
So we left the summer, our lastsemester of school and when we called
it quits, went on a six week tour.
And it turned out financially, youknow, we didn't make a lot of money,
but we didn't lose money, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And that's how we were doing things.
You know, we had a school busthat we gutted, painted white.
Yeah.
We had our own PA system.
It wasn't great, but it worked for shows.

(10:01):
It helped us book more shows and youknow, we went on a six week tour and
came back and just went full time.

Jason K Powers (10:08):
Do you think that, that say the, the timeframe of the
tour, you know, that six week tourdo you think that was sort of pivotal
to, the trajectory of the band?

Michael Kalel Wittig (10:19):
It was definitely part of the story
because we were able to do it.
Okay.
We didn't kill each other and implode.

Jason K Powers (10:27):
Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig (10:27):
Which some bands will do when you're together that long.
Sure.
We were, we were, we didn'tgo home for six weeks.
We were gone.
You know, we were tough enough to do it.
We made an impact on people.
We made fans then thatwe still have today.
We made some contacts in promoterradio station connections that were
vital to band, to pillar launching.
It wasn't like the end all, but it wasdefinitely validation that, Hey, we have

(10:52):
something here and we can do somethingwith this because we pulled that off.

Jason K Powers (10:56):
Right.
So you guys were.
Doing all your own promotion and, andmarketing and anything you could do,
you know, schlepping, all your ownstuff around and, and did, once you
got signed shortly thereafter, howdid that change the game for you guys?
Or did it.

Michael Kalel Wittig (11:13):
So it did.
So like I said, being the powerhousein Kansas and then slowly spreading to
surrounding states, it made an impact.
Word got out, you know, now I wasalways researching what labels,
what Christian labels are out there,what Christian radio stations.
But I was still learning the, that game.
I wasn't professional.
I'm still not professional.

(11:34):
I'm still trying to learn, butback then I didn't know anything.
So I was just probing.
Learning.
Eventually our stuff got in thehands of the members of Audio
Adrenaline, who was a huge Christianband in the early two thousands.
They were massive.
One of the biggest ones, I would say,just below DC Talk and News Boys, they
were probably the number three biggestChristian Rockish Act out there.
And they were starting a label atthat same time called Flicker Records.

(11:57):
They actually had already launched it.
Somehow they got ahold of ourpress kit and I remember getting
a call in our band house.
Me, Rob and, our originalguitar player, had a house.
Near the college where weall lived and practiced.
I remember getting a call on our landlinefrom Bob Herdman with Flicker Records.
Didn't know who they were at thetime, didn't know who Bob was at the
time, and I said, yeah, that's cool.

(12:18):
Took their information.
Was reading a Christianmagazine called 7Ball.
It was big back in the time there was CCMand then 7Ball Magazine was a Christian
music magazine and I remember reading itand it talked about a Audio Adrenaline
and their new record label Flicker recordswith founding members, Bob Herdman.
Will McGinniss Mark Stuart and I waslike, Hey, that's who called, you know?

(12:38):
So we, we jumped on it, overnightedhim a, a CD mark got it on the road.
They're on tour and said, Hey, why don'tyou guys come up to Wichita, Kansas?
We have a show, we wanna meet you guys.
So we drove to Wichita andmet 'em at some coliseum and
talked, and the rest is history.
They signed us and you know,at that point we had a manager.
Now we have a label nowwho had a publicist.

(12:59):
They have a radio team.
It was just the whole whirlwind.
We're gonna get you in the studio.
We're gonna rerecordyour independent album.
You got this photo shoot.
Who is, who is Toby Mac's sisterdid our first photo shoot.
You know, we had a stylist and brought allthese clothes and it was just, it was a
fun time because it was all new to us atthat level, you know, and they put us on
some cool tours that we wouldn't, wouldnot have been able to get on without them.

(13:23):
You know, the, our first tourwas Winter Jam, actually.
Winter jam 25 years ago.
So we were playing coliseums in front ofthousands of people, you know, early on.
And it was, it was pretty amazing.

Jason K Powers (13:35):
Was that just surreal going, going from that and then
thinking back like, gosh, you know,

Michael Kalel Wittig (13:40):
we started

Jason K Powers (13:42):
out here in, in Kansas or back all the way back to when you
first got started, you know, and playing,

Michael Kalel Wittig (13:47):
I, I always, I knew.
Early on, I knew that I wasgonna do something to music.
Once I met the pillar guys andwe were started, I knew without
a shadow of a doubt that Pillarwas going to do something big.
I felt it.
In my heart, I'll say it was God's callingand I knew it without a shadow of a doubt.
I don't know if the other guys did.
I, I think they had like, I don't know.

(14:08):
Let's do this.
Let's see how it turns out.
I knew otherwise, so Iwas pretty relentless.
And if you talked to anyother guys and asked me.
What kind of mindset and work ethicI had back then they'll, you'll hear
words like crazy relentless, like justI was, I mean, I would get no sleep.
I was just on the phone eventually on thelaptop, just 24 7 making moves for us.

(14:31):
'cause I believed in what we were doing.
You know, Rob has always been anointed.
Even then, when he was an earlyChristian, we started out on the mic.
Not, I'm not gonna be talkingabout singing, but just speaking
and, and relating to peopleand, and presenting God's word.
He has always been anointed and I knewback then he will eventually be a pastor.
And what does he do nowadays?

(14:51):
He's a pastor.

Jason K Powers (14:52):
Okay.

Michael Kalel Wittig (14:52):
I just believed in what we were doing musically
and just spiritually and what Robcould do on the mic for people.
So we were relentless and, and it, it wassurreal, but for me it was kinda like, I
knew we would, I knew we would do this.
I still loved it.
Thought it was awesome every time we didsomething, but I, for me, I, I was kind
of actually in a bad place mentally.

(15:14):
I wish I could have been a littledifferent because I was always working.
These great things were happeningand I was already thinking what's
next versus living in the moment now.
Now at 49 years old, I've learned to tamemyself a little bit and balance my life
better and live in the moment a lot more.
Mm-hmm.
Back then, I was tunnel vision and focusedand always thinking of the next thing.

Jason K Powers (15:37):
So let's talk about that for a minute.
Like what advice would you give?
Well, any band really that's, that'sgrowing or exploding into big things,
you know, and, and finding a balancebetween, like you said, living in
the moment versus just zeroed inand missing everything, you know?

(16:00):
Or, or, I, I, a lot of the timesit happens the other way around.
They're so.
In the moment that you're missing

Michael Kalel Wittig (16:07):
a lot of, yeah, it's a, it's a balance because you
have to be careful because you haveto realize that a band is a business,
so there's the band side playingshows, hanging out with people.
You know, doing that stuff andjust writing music and having fun.
But then there's the corporationand the taxes and the bills.
You have to pay.
Yeah, pay and the finances andtrying to make money to support your

(16:29):
family so you can keep doing it.
They're, they're two separate things andthey both have to be balanced and minded.
You know, I will say when we were younger,I wish we knew now what we know now.
Back then, you know, I think wecould have been more financially.
Successful on the business side, ifwe did things a little smarter, you

(16:49):
know, we were young and didn't knowand probably didn't save right and
invest our things in the right things.
So I would say my best advice toyoung bands trying to make it, or
maybe who just starting to make it.
'cause there's a difference betweenbeing independent, doing everything
yourself, and then once you get signedand you have a manager and a booking
agent, they're different situations.
Once you are newly signed or just atthat point where you need to have a team.

(17:14):
That's where you have to be really,really wise, who your team members are.
You have to have the right team thathave your best interest in heart,
because if they don't, they're notreally looking out for your finances.

Jason K Powers (17:26):
Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig: You know, so, so yeah. (17:26):
undefined
We've had experiences wherethe wrong representation.
You know, probably didn't do usjustice financially, you know, because
maybe we had the wrong team member,maybe out of excitement because hey,
this guy manages this guy, this guy,these big bands that we look up to.
Hey, we're gonna be like those big bands.
You get starstruck even with managersand agents and stuff, and you may

(17:49):
pick the wrong one that really doesn'thave your best interest in heart.
Mm-hmm.
So I would just say be very wise, bevery prayerful on who you have on your
team, and make sure that they are.
Really looking out for your bestinterest and how your money is
spent, and then just because youhave a team, don't trust everybody.
It could be your best buddy or a familymember doing your finances or whatever,

(18:11):
but, but as a business owner, you are abusiness owner, not just a songwriter.
You need to know what's going on withyour books or your money's going.
You need to, you need to learn that stuff.
You don't need to let it consumeand take up your whole day, but
you need to know what's going on.
Just to make sure things arebeing fiscally responsible.

Jason K Powers (18:30):
Yeah.
And, and it's funny because, youknow, I always say like, money
does funny things to people.
You know, when when money becomesthe primary conversation, right?
It does a lot of funny things to peopleI, I've heard so many stories with
artists and how things take a lefthand turn, you know, all of a sudden.

(18:51):
'cause just like that you we'rewatching something, something came up.
So tell me what's uh,

Michael Kalel Wittig (18:57):
thankfully that's never been our problem.
We didn't ever have that problembecause we never made the millions and
millions that would with someone's mind.
I think for me it was more of alack of concern of money because
I did all my work for passion.
You know what, I'm, I still, I'mstill like that when I, when I have
something on my heart now it's,you know, fitness, still music

(19:18):
'cause we're still doing Pillar.
Back then it was all Pillar.
My passion was so great forour mission, for our fans, and
just do building the business.
It was so much fun.
I could care less abouthow much money I made.
I just didn't concern myself with that.
My wife picked the money and,you know, pay the bills and I
didn't even know what we made.
I didn't even care.

Jason K Powers (19:38):
Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig (19:38):
You know, it was more of that.
So I wish that we would've been more,just had a better business since back
then, obviously we did enough 'cause wewere, you know, full time and supported.
Our families we're doing things right.
But I think if we would've done thingsa little bit better, we would be in
a lot different place financially,even now today, if we would've

(19:59):
did things better 20 years ago.

Jason K Powers (20:02):
What's some of the, let's say, hard lessons, you
know, spinning off of that idea?
Like what, what kinds of thingsdo you think you, if you guys

Michael Kalel Wittig (20:11):
having the right manager, having the right manager
that's gonna make smart decisions.
Okay.
We, we, I'm not gonna downplay or talk badabout any specific person because certain
ones did great things for us and loved us.
Still might've made a mistake or two,then there might've been one that probably
didn't have our best interest in heart.

(20:31):
So having those team members are vitaland making sure that you're really,
they really care about you and aregonna look out for your best interest.
You have the wrong manager.
They could make some wrong.
They could not only just beusing your money for things that
have nothing to do with you.
They could get you into bad deals thatdon't make sense in bad situations
that you don't want to be in.
It's huge.

(20:52):
And then when you have to sign contracts.
With labels and publishing companies andmanagers, you just really need to look
at those contracts and you probably needto spend some money, invest some money
on a very legitimate entertainment lawyerthat's going to go through that stuff with
a fine to con, I can't say the expression

Jason K Powers (21:13):
tooth, fine tooth that.

Michael Kalel Wittig (21:16):
Fine tooth comb and make look for the little things
that, that are gonna get you introuble or cost you a lot of money.
So we're not contract lawyers.
We don't know.
You know, so that kind ofstuff is very important.
And I wouldn't rely on a, a, a lawyerthat the label suggests, don't do that.
'cause that's, they'relooking out for them.
Or maybe even your manager.
It's like, if, and even if yourmanager suggests one, you need

(21:39):
to vet that lawyer yourself.
You need to talk to them yourself.
Make sure they're, they're credible,make sure they're actually working
for you and not other parties, becausethose, those percentages and those
deals, and they can, you know, get youin a bad situation or you could make
a lot less money than you should be.

Jason K Powers (21:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's important in generaljust, just as a business owner, right,
because you're, you're a businessowner at that point, and identifying
the things you're not good at.
And, and, and going, okay,we need to bring in the right
people for those things.
Like you said, you know, we're,we're playing in the band.
We're not contract lawyers.

Michael Kalel Wittig (22:17):
Yeah.

Jason K Powers (22:17):
You know, so find, find the right people.

Michael Kalel Wittig (22:19):
Yep.
Right.
It's huge.

Jason K Powers (22:21):
Stink at marketing.
Find people who go market for you.

Michael Kalel Wittig (22:25):
Have an accountant.
If you're not great with money, havean accountant that can keep your books.
Keep, we never got audited.
But keeping you from getting audited,making sure your taxes are being
paid, make sure your books are beingdone smart, so you're paying just the
taxes you need to pay and not overpay.
Yeah.
You know that you're getting the right,the, the write offs and all the things
you need to be doing, you know, so yeah,you need to have a proper accountant,

(22:47):
make sure your corporation and, youknow, we had a sub s corporation.
Having some type of businessstructure or some type of corporation,
depending on your situation,I think is vitally important.
You know, having that, thatcorporation own assets is important.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, there's just a lotof things that that can.
Make or break you later on down the line.
Once you do get successful, youneed to have that foundation

(23:09):
of business really strong.
The stronger you can have thatwith dependable team members,
the more successful you could be.

Jason K Powers (23:18):
Yeah.
What's another say, hard lesson youguys learned along the way that that you
would, you would've done differently?
You would do differently now?

Michael Kalel Wittig (23:26):
I would say within, really the most important thing
of any band is the band itself and therelationships and the communication.
So I would say, and this is stuff wetalk about now, you know, and, and we're
gonna, we got some news for you lateron in this podcast that I'll be able
to talk about more in a little bit.
But, but one of the things that weall wish we had were better at, were

(23:46):
communication 20 years ago, or a bunchof young men would've, men not like
to do, talk about their feelings.
You know, it's not something we like todo as men, especially back then, you know.
Something make us mador we hold the grudge.
We just hold that stuff in andeventually it just explodes.
You know, it's, it'spillar never broke up.

(24:06):
We just kind of had to take a break.
But a lot of it was dueto miscommunication.
I think if we would've been bettercommunicating when we were younger.
A pillar may have never stopped.
We had never, maybe wewould've never had a break.
Maybe we would've been in a completelydifferent place financially if
we kept building that businessfor the last 10 years, 15 years
that we've been off, you know?

(24:27):
So I would say just, just be honestwith each other, with your band mates.
Have communication.
If you need to bring in a road pastoror something to help that do that.
Because if you guys don'tcommunicate, you don't get along.
There's no business.
There is no band, there's no business.

Jason K Powers (24:43):
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, you hear that a lot.
And, and, and I know you guys tooka, a, we'll call it a hiatus, you
know, for a while and, and thenreconvened and I think you, you stepped
out from about what, 2008 to 2012,

Michael Kalel Wittig (24:59):
something like that, Lester, around the same time?

Jason K Powers (25:02):
Yep.
Yep.
And so, so talk me through that.
Like, when bands take these long breaks.
You know, some, some you hear aboutit, some of them come back and they
come out screaming, you know, andand really hit the ground running.
Some come back, maybe halfheartedly,I guess, you hear about, and, and

(25:25):
take me through, like with you guys.
What was some of the motivatingfactors or what, what got you to.
Pick up the torch again, so to speak.
So,

Michael Kalel Wittig (25:33):
so we had some few years apart.
We had a few years apart back in 2014maybe a little bit before that, 2013,
2014, we just started talking again.
Mending relationships.
I would say nowadays we're ina better place friendship wise
than we were back, back then.

Jason K Powers (25:52):
Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig (25:52):
Just 'cause we could communicate better, you
know, we have more life experience.
Yeah.
We got families now.
Mm-hmm.
But in 2015, so alreadya decade ago, we were.
Talking and started writing musicagain, and we wrote an album called
One Love Revolution, released itindependently in 2015 and played one show.
And Lester actuallycouldn't be at that show.
He had something already.

(26:13):
It was, I think it wascalled Big Ticket Festival.
Up in Michigan and Lester had something,he, prior obligation couldn't do it.
He wanted to be there,but he couldn't do it.
But we played that one showtogether and it was awesome.
And you know, and we were wanting to domore, but things individually with family
and stuff just didn't work out withthe jobs that some of us had and family

(26:36):
after that, it kind of just sied down.
We were still talking and hanging outand a, during a lot of that time, it was
like, okay, what are we gonna do next?
What are we gonna do next?
But we, we just couldn't, it,it wasn't the right timing yet.
It wasn't until about 2023, youknow, 'cause some of us kept, Hey,
when are we gonna play a show?
When are we gonna write a song?
We were tapping each other.

(26:56):
We had a text chain for years, and itjust, we couldn't get the timing right.
In 2023, we had those same conversationsand it was finally things lined
up where, yes, let's play someshows next year, which was 2024.
That's just, it just happened actually,we got a call from a festival owner
promoter named Ken Ferguson out of Ohio.

(27:17):
They produce, it's calledthe live productions.
They do a live festival.
That's one of the festivals we playedback in the early two thousands, you know.
First aside stage,eventually the main stage.
Great relationship with the livefestival and a handful of the
festivals that ran back then.
But Ken would be trying to get us 23.
We're like, oh, sorry,we, we can't play yet.
He kept after us and finally when he puta offer in for 24 things lined up and

(27:39):
we said, okay, like Ken, let's do it.
And then because of thatshow, we booked a second show.
So we were going out to do two shows andthen Rob was like, we gotta rehearse.
We haven't played in 10 years.
We haven't played with Lester in 15.
So we decided to, to book some rehearsaldates here in Tulsa where me and Rob live.
And then Rob was like, well, if we'regonna rehearse and be together, why

(28:00):
don't we do a Tulsa show as well?
So we booked a show in Tulsa at, atBattle Creek Church, where Rob's actually
a one of the pastors and kind of madeit the first show of our coming back.
And that happened in June of last year.

Jason K Powers (28:14):
Cool.
So from your chair and pillar,you know, what would you say,
what income streams, let's say,have mattered most over the years?
You know, touring guarantees andfestivals, royalties, licensing side
projects, you know, from, from fromthe band income stream perspective.
What kinds of thingshave mattered the most?

Michael Kalel Wittig (28:31):
So you gotta think, you gotta remember the things that have
shifted a lot from when we were full-time.
When we were full-time.
There's some years wedid 200 shows a year.
We were on the road a lot.
There's time now.
That wasn't all the case, butthere's some years we pushed hard.
So back then to now is completelydifferent games back then.
Yeah, we were have, we had showhonorariums that were getting at

(28:52):
the end, pretty awesome for us.
Where we were at as a rock band, theywere getting pretty good in the good
range, but you gotta remember we hadmanager taking 15, whatever he took
off the top, your booking agent wouldtake 15, 20% off the top, you know?
So there we were getting a small,what really helped us back then and
what put a lot of bands, what keptthem fed back then was your merch.

(29:14):
You know, big merch sales back then.
It's a little bit different gamenow, but back then we'd do really
good on merch sales and thathelped us out a lot nowadays,
surprisingly here, 20 years later.
What was a, a big surprisewas digital royalties.
You know, but I get this emailfrom this place saying, Hey, Sound
Exchange, I think is what it was.

(29:35):
Hey, we have some digital royaltieshere, sitting here for you, Michael.
It's been sitting heresince 2000 something.
Sitting there for 15, 20years and it's unclaimed.
So I was like, okay.
And I started talking to 'em.
I went, I, I, first, I almost thoughtit was a scam, but I went through the
hoops and it was a real deal and theyhad a very large, very large check
just sitting there in an account thathas been sitting there for each of us.

(29:58):
But they were callingme for mine personally.
So that was huge.
Nowadays, you know, the digitalstreams is a whole nother realm of,
of income and, and we had a very largechecks waiting for us because of that.
That's huge.
Nowadays, you know, we're, we're playinglimited shows, so of course we have those
honorariums and we don't have a managertaking money off the top, you know?

(30:19):
Mm-hmm.
I'm, I'm just, we're doing it in-house,so that saves us a lot of money.
We do have a, a booking agent now, though.
I did booking last year andsome of the shows this year.
All but one this year.
But there's some areaswe wanna get to that.
I just don't have the, the timeto, I don't wanna research anymore.
The shows we're doing now, peoplecalled us, so if I want us to
go play in California, I don'tknow a promoter in California.

(30:43):
So I did get a Christian agencycalled, faith Artist Agency.
She's been doing this for like 20years to represent us on the booking
side, so she will be taking a cut ofthat, but we don't have a manager cut.
Now, merchandise has been a differentexperience for us this time around.
I'm not really sure why, butyou know, we used to, to do
big numbers back in the day.
It's a different game now.

(31:04):
Our o our opening show in Tulsa waspretty big, was huge, but festival dates,
the numbers are a lot lower than theyused to be, and we kind of heard it's
kind of like that across the board.
Just

Jason K Powers (31:14):
saturated.

Michael Kalel Wittig (31:15):
Yeah, I'm not really sure why.
It's just a different time,different game now, you know?
But, but yeah.
So this, managing your expensesis very important, you know?
So for us now.
We don't do this for a living anymore.
It's for fun now, and we're doinglimited shows, so each show offer we
get, we have to first of all, make suredoes the location, does the event, does

(31:36):
the money make sense for our families?
Mm-hmm.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
If the number's right, it's notthat we're greedy, it's just we know
what the flights are gonna cost.
You know, we know what our expenses are toget everybody there and to step away from
their family for two days to do a show.
You know, and once they make sense,you know, this is where Rob comes in.
I'm not a money guy.
I can negotiate honorariums and do that.

(31:57):
I don't like to deal with, withcounting money and expenses.
The thing is, Rob's really good at it.
He has an administrationrole at, at church.
He, he's, he knows the business side inand out, so he's very good with putting
together the spreadsheets, itemizing ourexpenses, making sure taxes are paid.
So that kind of role in, in the band,and if you guys can't do it, you need

(32:18):
to have someone that can is vital.
So now when we're getting paid atthe end of the thing, we know the
taxes are paid, all our crews paid,everything's right there and easy to see.
So everything makes sense.

Jason K Powers (32:30):
Right.
Right.
So any money, habit advice you would putout there for the up and coming guys, that
starting to make some money, maybe notquite paycheck to paycheck, so to speak?
You know, maybe starting todrip in some money that they can
finally get ahead a little bit.

Michael Kalel Wittig (32:48):
Yeah, I mean.
Stay, stay on top of your,your spreadsheets, you
know, itemize your expenses.
So when you do a show, youshould know what all your
expenses are from that one show.
You gotta think merchandise.
Yeah, you made maybe five grand one night.
What did the merch cost?
What was the shipping cost?
What's the merch fee?
The venue that night?
You need to know all your expenses.

(33:10):
So you should have thatspreadsheet already and plugged in.
And at the end of the night, justplug those numbers in so you know
what you actually made, what you owe.
And just how it looks.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
If you're not keeping track of that,there's a lot of guessing going on and
things could go the wrong way, you know?
So that's really important.
Another thing is justspend within your means.

(33:30):
We do have expenses as a band business,you have to pay crew, you, you have
merchandise fees, you have there,there's expenses that have to be paid.
Try to minimize 'em, you know,do stuff that makes sense.
You know, I would say on some tours backin the day, we're sitting on a bus and
we have the lighting guy that we hired.
We have this, the sound guy that we hired.
We have this guy we hired.

(33:51):
We got a merch guy that we hired.
I'm sitting there looking like we got fiveor six employees on here that we're all
paying plus all this crazy production.
You know, did we need tospend this much money?
Maybe we did, but we probably couldhave, you know, maybe spend a little
bit less on production, you know, backin the day and saved a little bit more.
So kind of just spend your moneywisely and, and live within your

(34:13):
means for the betterment of your band.

Jason K Powers (34:18):
You hear that quite a bit and, and when I talk to people and we sit
down and look through their, their budgetsor, you know, whatever you're looking
through on income and expenses, right?
Is in the end, there's, I'd say moreoften than not, we get to the end of that
and they say, oh, that's the response.
Oh, you know, I was in this realizationof, oh, that's where all my money went.

(34:41):
That's why I didn't have any left.
Really for myself, you

Michael Kalel Wittig (34:44):
know?
Yeah.
For the fireproof tour, wehad to have pyrotechnics.

Jason K Powers (34:48):
Yes.

Michael Kalel Wittig (34:48):
You know?
Yeah, that's right.
We had to have the pyrotechnics.
Now, how much did money didwe spend on having a certified
pyro guy there for a whole tour?
The amount of all the stuff heblew up every night for the tour.
It was cool, but we probablycould have saved tens of
thousands of dollars on that tour.
Not having it.
Maybe the other guys won't agree,but there's little things that we
probably could have done differently.

(35:09):
You know, and nowadays.
So for right now, a thing we'restill trying to figure out is
the merch situation becauseit's a different situation.
So something that we're looking todo for our website moving forward is
to make less money on each product,but have a, a print on demand model.

Jason K Powers (35:28):
Mm-hmm.

Michael Kalel Wittig (35:29):
So up until now we had some new
designs sent to our web store.
There's boxes probablysitting in their warehouse.
Paid for merch is sitting there,you know, and we're like, man,
this kind of doesn't make sense.
So this is something we're gonnatry now to see if it works better
financially is, and they're out there.
It's easy to do now ishave a print on demand.
Someone orders the next large shirt,they print that shirt and mail it to 'em.

(35:51):
We make less, but there's not tens ofthousands of dollars sitting on shelves
just waiting and collecting dust.

Jason K Powers (35:57):
Yeah, sitting on inventory too long and, and then

Michael Kalel Wittig (35:59):
we have a better idea now after doing a few shows nowadays.
We can make projections.
We know if X amount of peopleplay, we're gonna make about
X amount per head on merch.
We've done enough shows nowthat we have that number.
So now when we order for shows,we're not over ordering, you know?
So sometimes we may have not enough merch'cause we didn't do our projections right?

(36:21):
We're losing money on the table by nothaving enough, or we order way too much.
We got thousands sitting inboxes that already paid for.
So just doing projections.

Jason K Powers (36:30):
Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig (36:31):
And getting that dialed in.
So you're ordering the right amountof stuff is also a game changer.
I remember back in the day sometimes,yeah, we would way, way over order.
We had a storage unit that justwas filled at times with $50,000
of merch just sitting in there.
Mm-hmm.
We eventually sold it, of course, butI mean, we could have handled that
better, probably our, our projectionsand our inventory and probably been

(36:53):
a little bit better financiallyif we would've done that, right?

Jason K Powers (36:56):
Okay.
So albums like fireproof the reckoning,you know, they still have a, a tail.
I would, I would say, so what, whatshould artist know about building songs
and records that keep working longafter release, if that makes sense.

Michael Kalel Wittig (37:13):
you know, that's a hard one because as a band
member and as a band, you know,we hear other bands and the great
songs they write, and it's hard for.
Musicians like us or any musician,we'll hear that other band like, man,
I wish we played a song like that.
You know?
'cause we're still fans of musicand we hear other bands, our
friends or bands we don't know,and we're like, man, they're good.

(37:35):
Why can't we do stuff like that?
So, you know, we really just wrotewhat was on our heart and what we felt.
You know, Noah was just a geniuswith his riffs and Rob handled.
All the lyrics and melodies and mm-hmm.
We just wrote what was on Our HeartMan, and, and at the time when we
wrote the stuff, we weren't like,Hey, this is gonna be a timeless song.
It's just a song that we had funwriting and thought was gonna do great.

(37:56):
The only exceptions were when we wroteFireproof, there's three exceptions.
When we wrote Fireproof, I remember someof our band members saying, Hey, this is
gonna be a hit if this song's not a hit,I don't know what to do on fireproof.
I remember that.
I remember when we were on tour, I thinkwe were in Memphis and Noah came up with

(38:18):
the frontline riff and then Lester joinedin and we were jamming the Frontline riff.
It wasn't a song yet.
I remember everybody's head inthe venue turning other bands
that were touring with us.
They're like, what is that?
That is good.
We had, we had an inkling that thatwas gonna turn into something awesome.
And the third time I knew we wrotea timeless song was bring Me Down.

(38:39):
We were in the studio, we recordedthe music for Bring Me Down,
which we just thought was awesome.
But we didn't know what Rob was gonna do.
He didn't have his stuffwrote yet, and we had a show.
So the rest of us left to go dothe show travel there on the bus.
Rob stayed in the studio to recordthese vocals that we had not heard
nothing of because he didn't have 'em.
It wasn't that he was holding 'em fromus, we didn't have nothing wrote Uhhuh.

(38:59):
And he flew in and met us atthe bus and he, and he had a
CD and he said, this is it.
We went to the back of the bus.
He put that CD in and we heard, bring medown with the vocals for the first time.
You can't bring, we were like, oh my gosh.
This is,

Jason K Powers (39:13):
yeah,

Michael Kalel Wittig: this is, this is amazing. (39:14):
undefined
We knew it was gonna be a hit.
And that song, what turnedout to be a big hit, you know.
Mm-hmm.
The other songs were just fun and, youknow, writing what Was On the Heart.

Jason K Powers (39:24):
I remember so many of these songs coming
out and just the same thing.
Right.
It was as a fan reaction going.
Wow.
You know?
That's so cool.
And I think that's, like you said,you get that feeling early on.
You're like, this one,this is gonna be a big one.

Michael Kalel Wittig (39:39):
Yeah.

Jason K Powers (39:40):
Is that roll

Michael Kalel Wittig (39:40):
out?
And we played just in Dallasjust a couple nights ago.
I know this won't come out for awhile after we're talking, but we
just played a couple nights ago.
Our what show?
Third show this year we playedNew York, we played Germany.
We just played the Dallas House of Blues.
You know, frontline goes on.
Spring me down.
People just went nuts.
Yep.
They went nuts

Jason K Powers (40:01):
into it.

Michael Kalel Wittig (40:01):
Still has the same effects, you know,
which is, was was a lot of fun.

Jason K Powers (40:06):
That's great.
That's great.
Alright, well speaking of bigthings, you guys have a big thing
coming up here pretty soon, right?
Tell

Michael Kalel Wittig (40:14):
me about it.
Yes sir. So when we came backlast year we had the idea of.
Hey, let's film a documentary.
And actually the idea was myson, my oldest son, his name
is Kaden, he is 21 years old.
He's a film student and he'salready an award-winning filmmaker.
You know, he writes anddirects short films.

(40:34):
He's done a previous documentary.
He goes to film festivals, he's won filmfestivals, he's been on big movie sets.
He does a lot of big stuff fora 21-year-old, very talented.
And he came to me last year and heactually had the idea for a long
time, but when he knew we werecoming together, he goes, dad,
let's, let's make a documentary.
And I said, okay, this is gonna beall you, as far as like, I meant,

(40:55):
we're not gonna look over yourshoulder and tell you what to do.
This is your project.
You film it and tell the storythat you think you want to tell.
I had that much faith in him because Iknew his ability, I knew how smart he
is and how good he is at what he does.
So he, he.
Filmed our rehearsals, which was twodays, two days of rehearsals, band
interviews, the full Tulsa show.
He flew to Ohio andfilmed two shows with us.

(41:18):
He collected stuff from the early days,like scanned photos from 1999, found VHS
tapes and old DVDs and, and digitizedthem all, and, and had everything,
everything he could get his hands on.
And he made this documentaryand we hadn't seen a peep of it.
Not a single minute of it until a couplenights ago we had a, a premier screening

(41:43):
at the Dallas House of Blues packed house.
And, and he played it andit turned out amazing.
So we were releasing thisdocumentary, it's not released yet.
We're planning to release itthis coming December, about the
time this podcast probably drops.
It's called Pillar Beyond the Frontline.
And what I'll say about it is,it's, it's not just a Rockumentary.
Yes.
It talks about how Pillar started.

(42:05):
How we, how we grew.
It talks about how we disbanded and thentalks about how we came back together.
But, but more than that, it talks aboutour heart and the effects that Pillar had
on people and what we meant to people.
You know?
So I, I'll just say when I watch it acouple nights ago for the first time,
just about everyone in the house,there's times where we got teary eyed.

(42:28):
It's very emotional.
Yeah.
It's, it's very has a lotof heart to it and it's very
emotional and I'm so excited for.
Our fans and anybody that that likedPillar to, to see this, to see this, when
it drops, it's, it's 55 minute runtime andit, it's just the, it was a joy to watch.
my son did an amazing job on it.

Jason K Powers (42:48):
That's great.
Well, I, I, for one, I'm excitedto see it and I know it'll be very
nostalgic for a lot of people.
Right.
I'm sure you guys watchingit for the first time even.
Yeah, since you didn't really knowkind of how it was gonna get laid out,

Michael Kalel Wittig: he had stuff on there. (43:01):
undefined
I, I turned to him whilewe were watching it.
Where did you get that footage?
Yeah, there's footage on therethat I hadn't seen, or maybe
it's just been so long, I forgot.
But there's stuff on there that I hadn'teven seen before from the early days.
So when this comes out.
Pillar music.com will be the hubwhere you wanna go for information.
We are gonna release physical copies onDVD and Blu-ray that will be autographed

(43:23):
along with a new poster or new shirt.
And then we'll have streamingoptions as well where it can be
rented or streamed off our website.
So all, I don't know the the particularsyet, we're still figuring that out.

Jason K Powers (43:34):
Yep.

Michael Kalel Wittig (43:34):
But they will all be on pillarmusic.com Right
now the plan is to release it inearly December for the holidays.

Jason K Powers (43:40):
Awesome, awesome, awesome.
I know everyone's gonnabe excited about that.
Alright.
Every show we wrap up with what wecall Final Riffs, if it's kind of
our lightning round for listeners.
Short questions, quick answers, you know,snapshots really just to take us home.
So Michael, I'm gonna fire off a handful.
First thing that comes to minddoesn't have to be one word answers,

(44:02):
but you know, you'll get the idea.
Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig (44:04):
I'm ready.
It sounds awesome,

Jason K Powers (44:05):
fun.
All right.
When specifically didyou get your first bass?
You owned

Michael Kalel Wittig (44:11):
my first base.
It was high school.
I played guitar first and my schooljazz band needed a jazz player.
And I was friends with the currentjazz players that graduated.
And I, I think that'd be cool.
So I bought my first base.
It was a, a padula green padula.
And I learned so I could playin the jazz band at high school.

Jason K Powers (44:30):
How fun.
One pillar song you neverget tired of playing.
Can't say all of them.

Michael Kalel Wittig (44:36):
Underneath It All.

Jason K Powers (44:38):
Underneath it all.

Michael Kalel Wittig (44:39):
Underneath it all is a heavy one of our heavy songs.
It just completely rocks live.
My neck still hurts.
Played it two nights ago and myneck hurts really, really bad today.

Jason K Powers (44:49):
That's funny.
Alright, most underrated venue, maybe.
Most underrated venue you love.

Michael Kalel Wittig (44:56):
Man, that's a hard one because all those
venues we played were so long ago.
I can't remember most of them.

Jason K Powers (45:01):
Yeah.
Yeah,

Michael Kalel Wittig (45:02):
I would.
You

Jason K Powers (45:02):
have like

Michael Kalel Wittig (45:02):
I'll go old school.
I'll go old school.
For our old school fans, it'sone that pops to my mind.
It may not be the venue to answerthis, but it's one of 'em for sure.
It's called the New EarthCoffee House in Kansas City.
I don't even know if it's there anymore.
It may not be there anymore, but back inthe early two thousands it was a hotspot
for bands that came through in KansasCity, and I remember having some amazing

(45:24):
shows at the New Earth Coffee House.

Jason K Powers (45:27):
What's the loudest show you've ever been part of?

Michael Kalel Wittig (45:34):
Man, we played this thing early on
called the Luis Palau Festival.
Luis Palau was an evangelist.
I think he passed awaynow, but evangelist.
And he put us on one of his bigevents in Southern California.
It was on the beach outside.
Going down the beach, down the beach,and I couldn't see the end of people.

(45:56):
There was a hundred thousand people there

Jason K Powers (45:57):
really

Michael Kalel Wittig (45:57):
with jumbotrons spaced football fields down.
So the a hundred thousand peopledown the beach could see it.
It's the biggest crowd I'd ever seenand ever played in front of next to
that parachute festival in New Zealand.
Those people went absolutely insane.
I remember they had.
In preparation for the madness,they had ambulances already on hand.

Jason K Powers (46:17):
Oh, wow.

Michael Kalel Wittig (46:17):
For the people from the mosh pit and crowd surfing.
It was insane.

Jason K Powers (46:22):
Any single funny story that sticks out for you on
tour that was just kind of a, ohmy gosh, I'll never forget that.

Michael Kalel Wittig (46:30):
Um, gosh.
There's a few of them that popto mind that I can't talk about.
Not that they're like dirty orcrazy, they're just, uh, I don't
wanna hurt anyone's feelings.
The, the good ones I can't talk about.

Jason K Powers (46:44):
Those are the good ones, right?
All right.
Any in particular touring story

Michael Kalel Wittig: that you I, I got one. (46:47):
undefined
I got one.
I got one.
I got a safe one I could talk about.
I can't remember where this was, butI remember a promoter got us a limo.
To take us to the airportwhich we thought was cool.
We don't ask for that.
It was definitely a treat for us.
We thought it was the coolest thing.
We get to the airport, we get out of thislimo, then there's this like little cruddy
car in front of us and this other guys getout of it and we're getting out of a limo.

(47:11):
Those other guys getting outtathe little car with Switchfoot.
And

Jason K Powers (47:15):
Oh really?
Yeah.

Michael Kalel Wittig (47:15):
Who, who we're friends with and, no, and they're
getting out, you know, getting goinghome and Pillar walks out of this limo.
I always thought that was funny.
'cause like we looked up tothem, you know, they were huge.
Mm-hmm.
Our buddy Switchfoot andwe're getting outta the limo.
I thought that was, that was a good one.

Jason K Powers (47:29):
Yeah.
They're looking at yousideways going, Hey.

Michael Kalel Wittig (47:31):
We had the opportunity to tour with them throughout
Australia for two weeks, years back,and it was just an awesome experience
because they're the coolest guysand they're doing just great music,
and they're so friendly and humble.
And that was one of our, one ofour favorite little runs with the,
the Australian tour with them.

Jason K Powers (47:49):
That's fun.
That's fun.
All right.
Maybe one road habit that costslittle but pays big, so to speak
while you were on the road.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Man going to the gym. (47:56):
undefined
You know, we were kind of known as the gymband there for a while in our first bus.
We had so many weights under thebus on one side that the bus tilted
permanently and we would pull it outat Walmart parking lots or behind
festivals and all of us would work out.
Me and Lester hardcore.
But no one Rob jumped in a lot.
You know, we just all like to, to be fit.

(48:17):
It helped us with our stage shows and.
Something we enjoyed, you know, so,and once we got on tour and stopped
carrying our weights underneath, youknow, our first stop, we'd get there.
Me and Lester would wakeup, Hey, where's the gym at?
Our tour manager would have itready for us, tell us where to go.
We'd either walk there or get acab and go to the gym and work out.
Just kind of keeps you healthy,we helps you put on better shows,

(48:38):
you know, if you're in shape.

Jason K Powers (48:40):
Sure, sure.
That's fun.
All right.
Single most impactful song.
That you've been a partof putting together?

Michael Kalel Wittig (48:51):
There is a couple and, and I don't know, for me,
it's not what I think's impactful.
It's hearing from thefans songs that help them.
Mm-hmm.
I know the song further from myself.
I've had several individuals very recentlyeven talking about how that song saved
their life, where they were mm-hmm.

(49:11):
Ready to commit suicide likeit was happening right then.
And then the song came on and they heardthe song and it changed their mind.
Recently we just heard that story,and I've heard that before too.
That song has literally saved lives.
I've heard our song, smiling Down has hada profound effect on people that's lost,
loved ones, family members or friends.

(49:33):
So it's the slower songs.
And I'm sure there's a lot of othersongs that have, there's other
stories, but I know those two songsI've heard a lot of fan stories from.
Mm-hmm.
And some of those stories are,are mentioned in our shared,
in our documentary coming out.

Jason K Powers (49:46):
That's great.
I love stories like that.
I think really get to the heart of music.
I think it really, I love the quote,Hans Christian Anderson, right?
He said, "Where words fail, musicspeaks." and, and for me, right?
That's why music alwaysbeen a big part of my life.

(50:06):
Right.
You just don't have words.
You hear a song, you're like, yes, that'sexactly how I would say it, you know?

Michael Kalel Wittig (50:13):
Yeah.
Music powerful.
Music is very powerful, you know?
And while we're imperfect men, you know,God used us to write some songs that are.
Speak to people.
You know, despite our mistakes andwho we are as people, God has been
able to use the music that we produceto, to have a profound effect.
And just at this age in our coming back,we just really appreciate it now, we

(50:37):
appreciate what we've been able to do.
We appreciate the impact we've hadon people and we appreciate the
fans that that just support us.
Share those stories with us.
It just, it's, it wasmeaningful back then.
It's more meaningful now though,now that it's not a job anymore.
It's something that we just do for funand we're, we get, we get to do it now.
It's a privilege for us andit's just so meaningful to us.

Jason K Powers (51:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great, Michael.
Well, thanks for making the time andfor sharing so much with us today.
I know there's a lot of artistslistening that, that will learn
something, you know, and, andthat's why we do this show is just.
Having so many different perspectivesand ideas from so many different people.
You know, it's just people can listenand watch and, and really just take

(51:25):
some things home each and every episode.
And I know there was some stufftoday that would do that for you.
So, yeah, thank you for being on the show.
We will drop links in the show notesfor you listeners, and you could
follow along if today's conversationhelped you think differently about
the business side of your music.
Head on over to my website at1024wealth.com/music and grab a
free ebook called A Musician'sGuide to Infinite Banking.

(51:49):
Imagine funding the next project whileyour savings keeps compounding when
you are ready to talk about how a moneysystem can work for you and your world.
Let's talk.
Let's help you out and seewhat we can figure out for you.
So subscribe on your favorite podcast app.
Share this with one musician who needsit, and I will send you next time.
Thank you so much, Jason, Michael.
Thank you.

Michael Kalel Wittig: Thank you for having me. (52:09):
undefined
You can check Pillar on pillarmusic.com.
Yes.
My personal social socials are,@wittigworks for Instagram and everything
else and Jason can maybe drop that link.
It's something for youguys, but @wittigworks.
You can reach out to me personallyif you have any questions or wanna
chat about anything that we talkedabout today on the podcast as well.
Awesome.

Jason K Powers (52:30):
Do it.
We'll drop all these links inthe description and you guys
will be able to find everything.
Pillar Music.
I can't wait for thisdocumentary to come out.
And we'll check it out.
So subscribe in your favorite apps andshare with the musician who needs to hear
this, and I will see you guys next time.
Until then, keep your moneyworking and your music moving.