January 27, 2025 • 41 mins
Unlock the secrets to a clutter-free life as I welcome back Sarah Hackenberg, founder of Grace in Cycles LLC. Sarah sheds light on how the clutter in our spaces can wreak havoc on our mental well-being and stress levels. Learn how organizing your environment isn't just about tossing things out but about creating an efficient, stress-free haven. Sarah shares her experiences and expert strategies that can transform your home into a peaceful refuge, highlighting the profound impact an organized space can have on your life.
Join us as we tackle common misconceptions around decluttering and organizing. Sarah and I explore how it's less about purging and more about accessing meaningful items with ease. Whether you're streamlining your home or boosting productivity in your business, we discuss how effective organizing systems can lead to significant efficiency gains. Sarah provides a fascinating glimpse into her client work, emphasizing the importance of trust and collaboration, while also teaching us how businesses can improve their operations with strategic organizing techniques.
Wrestling with sentimental clutter? You're not alone. We discuss practical strategies to face this challenge head-on by starting with non-sentimental items and gradually building your decluttering confidence. Sarah offers a compelling framework for evaluating what stays and what goes, encouraging couples to work together towards a shared goal. Dive into the benefits of decluttering, from reducing stress and enhancing focus to gaining a sense of peace and relief. Witness the life-changing transformation that comes with a clutter-free environment and discover the true satisfaction of shedding the unnecessary load from your life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are you feeling stuck , trapped by barriers holding
you back from reaching your fullpotential?
Well, let's bust through thosebarriers so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
passionate about helping peopleovercome barriers to achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your true potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Well, all right, welcomeeverybody.
This is Matt Brooks.
(00:55):
Welcome back to the BarrierBusting Podcast.
Last week, I was talking aboutdecluttering the mind, right?
Which boy?
We all need that at variouslevels.
But freeing up some space inour mind, and why?
To create less stress in ourlife, right, that's the main
reason.
And then one of the main thingsthat I talked about that comes
(01:15):
out in all the advice aboutdecluttering your mind is
decluttering your stuff,decluttering your space,
decluttering your workspace,your home space, decluttering
your space.
Decluttering your workspace,your home space.
It's amazing how much of asubconscious effect that has on
you when your space is, you know, a mess, or not even a mess,
but just disorganized, and weall have an attic or a garage
(01:41):
that's overfilled with junkthat's not moved in years, and I
told the story last week abouta pile of magazines that was on
my living room floor for forever.
They were my wives and therewas this face on the cover of
the top magazine that I wasstaring at for four years.
And so I got rid of this pilebecause my rule is, if it hasn't
(02:01):
been touched or moved in fouryears, it's got to go right.
So I promised that we weregoing to have today a
professional organizer on sothat we can talk.
Yes, that's a thing.
By the way, a professionalorganizer is people that
actually make a livingorganizing your shit.
Isn't that amazing?
So I've got somebody on todaywho's going to help talk, who's
going to talk to us aboutdecluttering your stuff.
(02:25):
She has been on the show before.
We did an episode together oncareer pivoting because she
spent 20 years as a libraryscience person teaching in the
public schools and then she leftthat to start her own business
as a professional organizer.
My guest today is SarahHackenberg, who left teaching
careers I said as a schoollibrarian after 20 years to
(02:46):
pursue operating her ownbusiness as a professional
organizer, opening Grace inCycles LLC.
To help people organize theirpast, present and future.
Sarah offers an empathetic andefficient approach to optimizing
her clients space and time herclients space and time.
She is a member of the NationalAssociation of Productivity and
(03:07):
Organizing Professionals andthe Institute for Challenging
Disorganization.
I love that.
That's my favorite theInstitute for Challenging
Disorganization.
You can find out more about herand her business by visiting
her website, which iswwwgraceincyclescom.
Sarah, welcome back to theBarrier Busting Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Thanks, Good to have good to be back, Matt.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, it's great to see you again.
We're actually recording thison Christmas Eve, so Merry
Christmas to you or HappyHolidays or whatever you
celebrate.
So, yeah, I did an episode andit hasn't aired yet on
Decluttering your Mind and thechallenges and how much gets in
in there and what that does tous and, in particular, to create
stress, and what I do as a lifecoach a lot of it is to
(03:53):
minimize stress, because stresshas such a negative effect on
everything, including ourphysical being.
So I'm all about that.
So you are a professionalorganizer.
Tell us what it is you do.
Give us some info about yourbusiness.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So, like you said in the intro, I like to think of it
as organizing, and the pastaffects the present.
If you get present, organizedand running smoothly, that
affects your future.
Those things all go togetherand you're right Clutter can be
a humongous weight and drain ona person and a household a
(04:47):
household and so it is a verygratifying industry that I'm
working on, because you do getto see up close and personal the
effect you have on people'slives when you help them
declutter or make sense of theirspace, optimize their space.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
You know, I did an episode early on in this series
on habits and I talked about anight when I was around 29, 30
years old, where I came homeafter a very long day and had to
drive through a blizzard overmountains and what should have
taken an hour and a half tookthree and a half hours and I was
white knuckled and incrediblystressed and I walked into my
(05:18):
apartment and it was a disasterarea and I sat down to try to
come down off of this stressfuldrive and I couldn't relax and I
looked around and I said thisis ridiculous.
My home needs to be a refuge,not a place that causes more
stress.
So I put on a pot of coffee andI pulled an all-nighter.
I told this story in thisepisode and I organized
(05:39):
everything and what it did was.
It made me become very quicklyaddicted to being organized, to
having my poop in a group,because what I noticed very
quickly was how much moreefficient I was at my job, how
much more efficient I was ateverything, and so I got very
into that.
I quickly created habits whereif I'm making a sandwich, I'm
(06:01):
putting the food away before Ieat the sandwich.
If I'm done eating, I'm goingto put those dishes right in the
dishwasher, you know, et cetera, and keep everything organized
in a place, because what's thatold phrase?
You know, everything has aplace, a place for everything.
I finally grew up and did that,you know, and what it did for
my life in terms of a change formy life.
(06:22):
So I think this is really greatthat you're here to talk about
this, because this could reallymake a difference for everybody.
Okay, give us your overallphilosophy on decluttering.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well, sort of to your point, I would say that while
clutter in general there arestudies that show it does cause
stress, the amount of clutter orthe amount of organization that
works for you, it is veryindividual.
And so you want to payattention to that and just
(06:55):
remember that it's not theorganizing that works for you.
Matt works for everyone.
Or what you see on Instagram isthe answer you know, for
everyone.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
As I learned in my marriage, we both have different
perceptions about that andwe've learned to.
You know, I have my spaces, shehas hers, and yeah, no exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yep, and the other thing I would say is that you
know it's it's important to lookat someone's clutter and not
judge that.
So again, grace being soimportant to my philosophy,
there are a lot of reasons thatclutter accumulates, and it does
not mean that person is messy,that person is lazy.
(07:35):
There are all sorts of reasons,you know, why we end up not
paying attention to the thingsthat maybe aren't optimizing our
space and causing a stress.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, you know, in my case it wasn't that I was lazy,
I was working like crazy, but Iwas really getting eaten alive
by stress, and what I noticedwas when I got my stuff
uncluttered, it created anatmosphere where my home was a
refuge, so I could come downafter stressful days, which
helped me to recharge, to goback into the lion's den the
(08:09):
next day.
You know what I mean, and sofor me it wasn't about.
It's not about being judgmental, it wasn't about being lazy, it
was just like I was in such acrazy job that I didn't have
time I thought to continue tokeep myself organized.
But once I figured out a way todo it in a system and it took
years to practice this before Igot great at it, but once I did,
(08:30):
I noticed it had a tremendouseffect on me, right, and so I'm
not trying to suggest people arelazy either, so I'm grateful
you brought that up.
Any more to your philosophy, orshould I move on?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
No, I think you know grace and just understanding
that you want your space to bethe refuge that you pointed out
and it will just have rippleeffects throughout your life.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, so what are like?
You meet people who want towork with you, or think they
want to work with you, or aren'tsure, but no, they need.
They need to do something.
What are the most commonmisconceptions that people have
about organizing anddecluttering their stuff?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I mean, there's definitely the initial worry
that I'm going to make them getrid of all their stuff.
You know, decluttering doesinvolve getting rid of some
stuff, but it's not a now.
Everyone must live, as MarieKondo images suggest, with a
minimum of things.
(09:31):
So, you know, worry that it'sjust I have to get rid of
everything and that's not thecase at all.
It's really about optimizingyour access to what you do have
and making sure that what youhave is meaningful to you, not
just piles of things that you'resort of ignoring and I so
appreciate the optimizing yourability to get to things,
(09:54):
because that was a big part ofthe problem for me.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I lived in a small space and often when I would
need something, I'd have to pullsix things out to get to it and
boy, how frustrating.
That is right.
And so at some point you kindof go, oh screw it, I'm just not
going to bother, and then thatcreates stress, right.
So, all right, let me ask youabout your approach here.
You get a call from a clientand before they hire you, what's
(10:21):
the discussion like?
What is it that you say to them?
And then, when they hire you,what is it you do?
How do you start?
Where is it you know?
Do you work with them?
Do you just go in and plowthrough their stuff without them
there?
I mean, give me an idea of thewhole, the whole approach and
experience.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Sure.
So there's always a phone callto start off.
Not only does that help me geta sense of what the client's
looking for, but it's alsoimportant that the client gets
to get a sense of me and what mystyle is and make sure they're
comfortable with me, becausehaving someone come into your
home is so personal.
You do need to have a littlebit of comfort and trust in that
(10:59):
person.
And that starts with the phonecall conversation and between
the phone call and then theinitial visit, the most
important thing is for me tounderstand the person's
lifestyle and goal.
Why do they want to declutter?
And it can't?
While stress is very valid, thegoal I try to drill down on
(11:24):
getting the goal as specific aspossible, because those
specifics not only help me inguiding the parameters of the
job but also help keep theclient motivated.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's the same.
It's exactly the same in lifecoaching, you know.
Someone says I want to do X,why do you want to do X?
And it takes a while to drilldown the real why.
There's a sort of surface why?
Right, but the surface why?
Isn't enough to keep themmotivated to do the work.
It's going deeper and so we'redoing a similar thing there.
I want to, before you move onwith this discussion, go back to
(11:58):
this trust thing.
Who are you going to trust toorganize your stuff more than a
library scientist, somebody whospent their lives as a librarian
?
If they can't organize it, whocan?
Right, I've just had to throwthat in.
But anyways, back to yourapproach.
Okay, so you've talked to themand they've established some
trust and they decide okay,we're going to pull the trigger
(12:18):
on this and hire you and goforth.
What do you do?
How do you?
How do you go about this?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So I do offer different services.
Some people are hiring me inpart because they do not have
the time to organize theirclutter and they really do want
me to work independently,following the guidelines that
we've talked about.
And when that is the case andthe independent project there's
always a lot of communication,but it really is me just going
in to a space and starting thesort starting to consolidate and
(12:51):
then asking questions aboutwell, we've got this category of
things I think you know.
Are you ready to get rid of allof them?
Does that not suit you?
Maybe we can move it to anotherspace.
Then there are people who wantto work with me, do a paired
project, and that you know theadvantage to that.
Of course, it's still what isyour goal and let's hold on to
(13:12):
that.
But when we're working together, there's really more of a
transference of skills.
So they're starting to takeaway a lot of the mindsets and
the ideas that can turn intohabits that make it easier for
them, moving forward, to takethose skills and use them on
another project in their houseon their own, maintain those
(13:36):
organizing systems movingforward.
So it always comes back to thegoal, though.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So you're teaching as well.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, and I imagine people don't just hire you to
clean up their attic.
They might hire you to helpthem learn, uh uh, an efficient
um filing system right.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, so um it.
I have worked with businessesand nonprofits.
Um, you know, it's interesting.
I do focus so much on theresidential and the people who
need the relief of the stress,need to feel that their home is
a refuge, and that's sogratifying to me, that kind of
(14:19):
work.
But I do work with businessesand in a business case they're
looking to save money.
But I do work with businessesand in a business case they're
looking to save money.
You know they understand thatif we can access our files
quicker, that's saving us money,that's productivity and that
that's that's money saved.
They're looking to make surethat their supply closet is
organized so that they're notbuying more staplers when they
(14:41):
already have seven staplers.
They just can't find thestaplers.
So absolutely on that end.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
But I imagine people need files.
I mean, I have a filing systemat home.
There's a lot of papers,there's, you know, stuff from my
mom who's in a nursing home,there's my stuff, my taxes, all
kinds of information that has tobe filed.
Boy it's.
It's a constant, um, kind ofexperimentation on my part to
(15:08):
get it to be perfectly efficient.
Right, do you help people,individuals, with that?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, because you're right.
I think it's very easy to endup with just boxes and boxes of
papers and no real sense of ifall the papers in that box are
even worth keeping, let alone.
I think these are all somethingI should have access to, but
I'm never going to be able tofind the important stuff when I
(15:36):
need it, the important stuffwhen I need it.
And you know, the challenge,especially with paper filing, is
it takes a lot of time.
That just takes time, but whenyou get to the end of it, it's
extremely worthwhile knowingthat you will be able to put
your hands on some paperwork foran elderly parent who you're
(15:58):
helping out with, or your taxesat the end of the year.
I mean, that's a uh.
That really is life changing,and that is then so much easier
to maintain moving forward oncethe filing system set up for you
.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Well, let's move on a littlemore practical advice here.
Um, we want to give some tipsto people, right?
I know you don't want to giveaway the store because you want
to be hired by them, but let'sgive them some tips, right?
Where should someone start?
If they're feeling overwhelmedby clutter, they decide I've got
to do something about it, butoh my God, I'm so overwhelmed.
Where should they start?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And let me just backtrack a minute and say you
know, I have no problem at alltalking very specifically about
what I do.
In fact, one of the otherservices I offer is a DIY
service, so it's a two-hourpackage where a person I spend
an hour with the person in theirspace and then I spend an hour
devising a very detailed planthat includes every single thing
(16:54):
that I would do in their case,and they're free to take that
plan and move forward with it,because I am an educator and so
it's not.
I'm not a gatekeeper.
I'm not at all intending tomake people think that they
can't do this on their own.
I want to empower people.
(17:15):
In an ideal world, they hire meonce for a job and the job
sometimes jobs take six months,sometimes that are one week, but
at the end of that job, they dofeel empowered to move forward
on their own.
That's that is important to me.
So and think about it you knowthere's so many tips and
articles online about how todeclutter, so it's not the
(17:38):
information so much.
It is sometimes, though, verybeneficial to have a person
who's not connected with yourpossessions to help you get over
the initial start and sometimesjust wade through the mountain
of your possession.
So I just wanted to put thatout there.
(17:59):
The other thing I will say inrelation to people feeling
overwhelmed there is a fabulousbook the author is Casey Davis
and the book is called how toKeep House While Drowning.
It speaks so specifically tothe person who is just sits down
(18:19):
at the end of every day andlooks around at their house and
just sort of wants to crybecause they are stressed in
their life.
They're looking around, theyknow there's so many things that
they should be doing in theirhouse and they just can't.
They just can't.
So I highly recommend it.
And one thing she says is startwith one thing and if you're
(18:39):
overwhelmed, I'm literally goingto tell you look around and
decide.
You know what?
I could pick up all the dirtynapkins and tissues and trash in
my house and I'm just going todo that and that's all I'm going
to do today.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, start small, right, start small.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, let's start small.
Let's start small and let'sstart very specifically, like
just taking the trash, thesedirty napkins and things off the
floor.
That's one layer.
That then your brain is notoverwhelmed by or dirty laundry.
You know you've got you've gotkids running through the house
(19:16):
and they take off their T-shirtand their socks and you know
they're just sprinkledeverywhere.
So fine, you know your one tasktoday is just go through, pick
up all that dirty laundry andbonus, if you have the energy,
to throw it in the wash and seta timer so that when it's done
you throw it in the dryer.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
You know I did an episode on New Year's
resolutions.
Why they fail?
Cause only 9% of people whomake New Year's resolutions
actually succeed at them.
I've done episodes on habits.
It all comes down to a similarthing Start small, Just do a
little bit here.
A little bit, it will accrueover time.
You'll be amazed how much thataccrues just like an investment,
(19:49):
you know.
So that's great.
Okay, here's the thing.
I have a it's not, I'm justputting a hypothetical out there
.
I have a bunch of stuff that'sstill in reasonably good
condition, All right Clothes,electronics, furniture, et
cetera.
But I just do not want to bebothered with all that would go
into selling or donating them.
What a pain in the ass to me.
My wife loves doing that stuff,but I can't stand it Right, so
(20:12):
my inclination is just to throwit all in the trash.
All right.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
What do you have to say to people like me?
Hit me so I will tell you.
This is another reason to hirea professional organizer,
because we take away that stuffand deal with it for you.
So, if you know, so part ofwhat I do is, at the end of
every session, I take up to acarload away with me, and it's
things that need recycled, it'sthings that need to go to a
(20:40):
donation center, things that nolonger work for the person in
their space.
And look, I could leave you apile of things to recycle and a
pile of things to take to thedonation center, but that's its
own burden, and so that's asignificant service, that a
professional organizer.
It's pretty common thatorganizers will do that, but
(21:02):
it's something that I do.
And, yeah, you don't have todeal with that Now.
If you want to sell it, I don'tdo that.
There are some organizers whowill actually sell items for you
.
I will try to connect you.
If you have certaincollectibles or certain things
where a specialist would behelpful, I'll try to make
(21:22):
connections or set up a spacefor you.
I did this for one client whereshe loved to buy old furniture,
refurbish it a little bit andthen flip it, but it had become
overwhelming for her.
It was a hobby.
She used to love it, but it wasjust turning into a pile of
(21:43):
junk that she couldn't really.
Her brain no longer accessedits creative energy, and so one
thing I did for her was I set upa space in her house that would
always be used as a stagingarea, so once she finished a
piece, she had a place to put it, take photos, leave it there
until it sold and then move inanother piece.
So that's the sort of thing Ican do if you're interested in
(22:04):
selling things.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Well, but so worth it if you're going to take things
to recycling for me and then Idon't have to deal with the
guilt that I threw this thingout.
Oh, that's so worth it.
All right.
Well, this is great.
We're going to take a quickbreak and when we come back
we've got a lot more to talkabout here, so hang tight with
Sarah Hackenberg and me.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
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(22:52):
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Speaker 1 (23:14):
Okay, well, this show is definitely running along
people and we're going to let itbecause this is great stuff.
I'm loving this stuff, allright, so let's go a bit deeper
into this because, as you talkeda bit about layers of stuff and
working through your layers, Ithink there's layers in our
heads that we got to go throughtoo.
I imagine that people sometimeshave real issues with
decluttering.
I mean partying with things,especially sentimental items.
(23:36):
I imagine it's really tough forpeople.
It's you know some people.
I mean I can.
I'm pretty good at saying yeah,it was sentimental to me once.
I can let it go now, but noteverybody can do that.
So what are the most commonchallenges or resistance points
people face during declutteringand how do you help them
overcome that?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You're so right that it does not come easy to a lot
of people, and in fact that'ssort of the point.
You have to practice it.
It's sort of like a muscle youhave to start off with, you know
, five pound weights and thenbuild.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
It's a muscle you got to practice.
I like that Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, so and if you're going to practice, you're
going to need to start withthings that are easy.
So you know cleaning suppliesyou just have a ton of them
everywhere and you usually endup with duplicates and things
that are expired or empty.
You know that's an easy placeto start expired food in your
pantry.
You know that's there's not alot sentimental there and the
(24:40):
expiration date is sort of afact and it's easier to deal
with that kind of thing, yousort of build up, um, and then,
as you get into things, like youknow, books, uh books aren't
necessarily the most sentimentalthings, but a lot of times
there's attachment to them, orclothes, uh things that you're
still just not sure abouthanging on to.
(25:00):
So then I have a framework andyou want to think about four
things.
You want to think do I love it?
Do I need it?
The 2020 method could I easilyreplace it?
You know, in 20 minutes, for 20bucks, could I replace it if I
ever need it?
All those are, you know, yes orno's.
And then finally, this is thebiggie, if this thing was
(25:25):
covered in mold, would you putthe effort into cleaning it so
you could keep it?
Is it that important?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I like that.
I'm going to borrow that, ifyou don't mind.
I know somebody Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
If it's colored mold.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
would you clean it?
I see, yeah.
So kind of like silver thatyou've let set for a long time
needs to be really worked.
You got to really clean that upand that takes some work.
If that's worth it to you, thenfine, otherwise ditch it right.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Okay, yeah yep.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So, when somebody's got to declutter sentimental
items, you know and there aretimes where we need to let some
stuff go how do you handle it?
What's your advice?
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah.
So you know, we've beenpracticing, we've been
strengthening those musclesworking up to this.
But you get to the point whereit's the hard stuff and the
first thing to do is sort ofgather, like all the photographs
that you have or all the oldVHS tapes you have, and just
think about the quantity thatyou have.
(26:28):
Sometimes looking at thequantity is a helpful point.
It also allows you to think.
You know, can I truly accessand enjoy this right now, in
this state?
Whether it's boxes of photos oryou know, just dozens and
dozens of VHS tapes.
(26:48):
Even if you have a VHS player,still you will never be able to
watch all of them and start toconsider that.
And so then, how can we takethe most important memories, the
most important sentimentalitems and turn them into a
collection that you really canenjoy?
(27:09):
Sometimes that's enough toallow someone to let go of.
I have a client who lovesanything related with tea and
tea cups and she used to givetea parties and she just kept
accumulating these things andit's still very, very important
to her and she would like to getback to doing that again.
(27:30):
But as we gather all of thematerials she has, she's
recognizing that she will neverbe able to use all of them and
so going to be able to weed outsome of them and pass them on.
The other thing is that, whileI don't personally digitize
photos or things like that, I dohave connections sometimes
(27:53):
discounts, because of mynational organizations I'm part
of that I can connect clients toto help them digitize their VHS
.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Well, I'll tell you, I used to have about three to
4,000 CDs and when they came out, when iTunes match came out,
where you could just load themonto your computer, oh my God,
it took me a long time to loadthose on.
I would you know, I'd do it atmy office every day.
I would do a few a day again,little by little, but it accrued
(28:24):
and eventually they were all.
Now they're all on my phone,they're all in a cloud somewhere
and it cost me $25 a year tokeep them there.
And then I gave them all awayto someone who loves music.
But what a relief, because Iused to move a lot and every
time I moved I had to pack thoseCDs into multiple file boxes.
(28:45):
And I don't have to deal withthat anymore.
It's so awesome.
Let me ask you now about you'redecluttering and there's a
married couple and they'redisagreeing on what to get rid
of and what to keep.
What do you do then?
Do you just run for the hillsand say I'll be back when you
figure it out, or what?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Right, my degree is not in therapy and this is, you
know, beyond me.
So I would say there are threethings when people are
disagreeing about what to let goof.
The first is that you need tohave agreed on your major goal.
You know why are youdecluttering, so trying to make
sure that you are in step withthe overall goal.
(29:29):
You know it can't be well, mygoal is that you get rid of half
of your clothes, or you gethalf your rid of all of your you
know, car parts or whatever.
The second thing is to start toagain flex your muscles together
and work on low hanging fruit.
You know what can you agree ontogether to declutter.
(29:52):
So those two things help getyou in sync.
And then the third step is look, sometimes there is a maybe
pile, one person just not readyto get rid of X yet, and that's
fine, you've already made someaccomplishments together.
So then you have to agree allright, this maybe pile pile we
(30:13):
are going to set aside in theattic, in the spare room, for
six months and we're going tocome back to it in six months
and reassess has it been used?
How are you feeling about itnow?
Sometimes time is veryinformative to making these
decisions.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Okay, and I like the idea of this flexing the muscle
thing because you start small.
You can, over time, start withthe things you agree on.
You start to notice the effectit's having on you, that it's
having a really positive effect.
In my case it became anaddiction.
I became addicted to it.
I wanted everything out of mylife that was weighing me down
(30:53):
and it really oh my God, itreally made a difference to me.
But you're right, we're alldifferent.
But I like this idea ofstarting with the low hanging
fruit, starting with things youcan agree on.
But if you're going todeclutter a lot, so you got a
lot.
You just let it all build upover the years.
It's going to take a longperiod of time, especially if
you're doing it layer by layer.
(31:14):
How do you maintain motivation?
Or how do I know you maintainmotivation because it's what
you're doing for a living?
But how do other peoplemaintain that motivation six
months later when they're stillin the process of decluttering?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh yeah, absolutely, which is why it is so critical
to have a very specific goalthat you're working towards.
But even that, you know it'stiring.
It's tiring physically, it'stiring emotionally to just keep
letting go of more and morestuff.
So, to your point, you want tomaintain small steps, you want
(31:50):
to maintain that progress, evenif it is just little by little.
I often tell people to set atime limit or a task goal.
So, for example, I have a clientwho has more clothes than they
have space to store, but theyalso love clothes, and so it's a
(32:11):
project to go through them.
And so it's it's a project togo through them, and so the it's
some days.
Well, I have, there wereclothes in storage.
So I have three today, threebags of clothes that I'm going
to go through.
And here I am sitting you know,note to the note to self always
sit it getting ready for thisprocess, with a bag for
(32:35):
donations and a bag for trash or, you know, soiled clothing, so
that you are ready, you justready to pack it away.
So, but that's it.
Once you are done with the threebags of clothes, you're done
for the day You're walking away.
Or once you've done it, for 45minutes.
The timer goes off, walk awayand set rewards.
You know yourself at the end ofthat time.
(32:57):
Oh, you know what I'm going todo right now.
What?
What is your reward?
Maybe it's I am going to nowsit and watch 20 minutes of my
favorite show and then go aboutmy day.
I love to suggest to families,as they are trying to not only
declutter their home for theadults, but also teach kids,
(33:18):
that this is an important skill.
I love to teach families that,hey, you know what on Saturdays
in the morning, say, we are allgoing to spend 20 minutes in our
bedroom and we are going topick up everything off the floor
and put it in its place and atthe end of that 20 minutes we're
going to go do a familyactivity for that reward,
building in that habit.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I like it.
And yeah, if you're going tobuild new habits and I did
several shows on this you got tocreate rewards.
You have to.
It's part of the habit loop,what's called the habit loop,
but all right.
Well, let's talk about quickly,about how I know this is not a
quick thing, but let's just kindof touch on it.
How does clutter affect mentalhealth and productivity from
(34:02):
your perspective?
From my perspective, it affectsmental health and productivity
dramatically.
But what do you see from yourperspective?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Oh, yes, I mean, you did talk about it at the
beginning of this episode andyou're so right, and there are.
There are studies that showthat, um, you know, an excess of
things affects people's mentalhealth.
It causes stress, it reducesthe ability to focus, uh, which
is so huge for?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
all of us that's a big one is the the distracting
elements to this.
It's especially your workspace.
If your workspace is cluttered,boy, you're not going to be
able to focus in the way youthink you are.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I have had some people comment that, oh, their
house is cluttered but itdoesn't bother them and it's
fine and they're productive, andthis is just what works for me,
and that is again.
We'll say that is true.
You know, different brain types.
Were are able to ignore certainthings or enjoy having seeing
(34:59):
all of their creative products,artistic products, whatever, in
front of them.
That helps their creativeprocess is, if your clutter is
starting to affect things likethe livability of your home, if
it's starting to affect yourrelationships, if it's starting
(35:20):
to cause you some emotionalstress, paying attention to that
and is it causing, yes, theinability to focus?
Sometimes even there's afinancial burden that can come
with being overly cluttered.
So, while you think this isworking for you, great, but just
do pay attention to thosethings.
(35:41):
Yeah, I'll stop there and letyou.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Ok, I know no no, I think that's you know.
I think, look, and you're right, different strokes for
different folks.
But I do think that it's prettyproven that too much clutter is
going to cause you stress inone way or another.
It just is.
And so it really does help tohave your poop in a group, as I
like to say.
Let's just talk really quicklyabout you.
Know, what have you observed inclients that have been
(36:09):
successful?
What's the most satisfyingtransformation you've witnessed
as a professional organizer?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
You know, I would say they fall into two categories.
And the first is I have watchedsomeone this is in an
independent project, so theyhadn't been working with me so
they come into their bedroom,which was no longer cluttered,
and I just watched the weightfall off their shoulder and
(36:39):
peace descend.
I mean, it is so dramatic andfor them to just give a huge,
huge sigh of relief, almost indisbelief, that this is now
there's space, right, it'sincredible.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Oh, it's got to be satisfying for you too, right
yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:57):
So satisfying.
I mean it makes me feel likeyou say, we've both transitioned
relatively recently into newcareers and it is makes me feel
very good about the career, thenew career that I've chosen, so
gratifying to be able to helpsomeone that way.
And the second category iswatching someone's creative
energy return.
(37:18):
You know they have beensurrounded by these piles that
they have started to just ignorebecause that's the way they're
surviving.
And when those piles are nolonger there and they're able to
look at their space and justwatch their brain suddenly think
, ooh, wow, now I can once againdo this craft that I've wanted
(37:40):
to.
Or, oh wait, now I canrearrange my furniture or I'm
going to be able to do this newthing in this space, and them
get so excited and pumped aboutthe possibilities again that
their space offers them.
That's also just really, reallygratifying.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
What a great point that it opens up your creativity
again.
That's, that's.
Oh yeah, it has a lot ofbenefits.
All right, we're just aboutdone.
I got one last question for you.
What's your favoritedecluttering story?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So while these other things are so gratifying, I will
just take the spotlight for asecond and say the best
decluttering story I have stillis my own, because I took a four
bedroom house that I was livingin with my then husband and our
goal was that we wanted totravel and we had decided we
(38:35):
were going to travel for alength of time.
So, with that goal in mind, Idecluttered and got rid of
everything in that four bedroomhouse and whittled it down to
only the necessities we weregoing to need for a year long
trip in a camper.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
And did not just put everything in several storage
units.
I actually truly got rid of allof it.
And again to just puteverything in several storage
units, I actually truly got ridof all of it.
And again to the point thatit's all about the goal.
It allowed us to do what wewanted, which was just sort of
travel freely for a year.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
It allowed you to do what you wanted.
That's the phrase I want peopleto remember.
Yeah, no, this is great andthis is such great advice for
all of us.
I think you're right.
Everybody's different.
Some people can deal withclutter better than others, but
a little bit of decluttering isnot a bad idea for anybody.
And we're just into the newyear.
Now it's a good time not only tobe thinking about New Year's
(39:28):
resolutions, but also, you know,getting your freeing up some
space in your life, in your mind, in your physical spaces.
It can make a lot of difference, and I'm just gonna I'm not a
professional organizer, but I'mgonna reiterate my rule.
I know there's a lot of rulesor rules of thumb in
professional organizing.
Like we talked about the 2020rule.
There's other rules, but I'mgonna just I think my rule's the
(39:51):
best If it hasn't been touchedor moved in four years, ditch it
Right, Unless it's like apicture of your mother or
something.
That's not what I'm talkingabout, but you know, like in my
closet, every once a year, I gothrough my closet and I'm like
have I worn this in four years?
No, it's gone.
It's got to be gone.
So, Sarah Hackenberg, you arethe best.
Thank you so much for comingback on and good luck with your
(40:14):
business.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Thank you Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, no, this is great.
What a cool business you chose.
I really risky, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Any business like mine is risky too.
You know anything you're goinginto, but it's really cool and
there's national organizationsand everything.
I mean it's pretty impressiveand not a lot of people know
about it.
So, sarah Hackenberg, thank youfor being with us.
Everyone else, thanks fortuning in and listening again.
If you enjoyed this, please hitthat like or subscribe button
so you'll know when I'm droppingnew episodes, and I've been
(40:45):
putting this out there lately.
If you have an idea for a topicyou'd like me to cover on the
show, shoot me an email, matt atmattbrookscoachingcom.
Just shoot me an email.
Tell me what it is.
If it's something I can pulloff, I will happily do that, and
I'd love to get your ideas andyour feedback.
So feel free to write me, mattat mattbrookscoaching.
(41:06):
That's it for now.
Be well, we'll catch you nexttime on the Barrier Busting
Podcast.
Thank you.
Are you feeling stuck , trapped by barriers holding
you back from reaching your fullpotential?
Well, let's bust through thosebarriers so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
passionate about helping peopleovercome barriers to achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your true potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Well, all right, welcomeeverybody.
This is Matt Brooks.
(00:55):
Welcome back to the BarrierBusting Podcast.
Last week, I was talking aboutdecluttering the mind, right?
Which boy?
We all need that at variouslevels.
But freeing up some space inour mind, and why?
To create less stress in ourlife, right, that's the main
reason.
And then one of the main thingsthat I talked about that comes
(01:15):
out in all the advice aboutdecluttering your mind is
decluttering your stuff,decluttering your space,
decluttering your workspace,your home space, decluttering
your space.
Decluttering your workspace,your home space.
It's amazing how much of asubconscious effect that has on
you when your space is, you know, a mess, or not even a mess,
but just disorganized, and weall have an attic or a garage
(01:41):
that's overfilled with junkthat's not moved in years, and I
told the story last week abouta pile of magazines that was on
my living room floor for forever.
They were my wives and therewas this face on the cover of
the top magazine that I wasstaring at for four years.
And so I got rid of this pilebecause my rule is, if it hasn't
(02:01):
been touched or moved in fouryears, it's got to go right.
So I promised that we weregoing to have today a
professional organizer on sothat we can talk.
Yes, that's a thing.
By the way, a professionalorganizer is people that
actually make a livingorganizing your shit.
Isn't that amazing?
So I've got somebody on todaywho's going to help talk, who's
going to talk to us aboutdecluttering your stuff.
(02:25):
She has been on the show before.
We did an episode together oncareer pivoting because she
spent 20 years as a libraryscience person teaching in the
public schools and then she leftthat to start her own business
as a professional organizer.
My guest today is SarahHackenberg, who left teaching
careers I said as a schoollibrarian after 20 years to
(02:46):
pursue operating her ownbusiness as a professional
organizer, opening Grace inCycles LLC.
To help people organize theirpast, present and future.
Sarah offers an empathetic andefficient approach to optimizing
her clients space and time herclients space and time.
She is a member of the NationalAssociation of Productivity and
(03:07):
Organizing Professionals andthe Institute for Challenging
Disorganization.
I love that.
That's my favorite theInstitute for Challenging
Disorganization.
You can find out more about herand her business by visiting
her website, which iswwwgraceincyclescom.
Sarah, welcome back to theBarrier Busting Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Thanks, Good to have good to be back, Matt.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, it's great to see you again.
We're actually recording thison Christmas Eve, so Merry
Christmas to you or HappyHolidays or whatever you
celebrate.
So, yeah, I did an episode andit hasn't aired yet on
Decluttering your Mind and thechallenges and how much gets in
in there and what that does tous and, in particular, to create
stress, and what I do as a lifecoach a lot of it is to
(03:53):
minimize stress, because stresshas such a negative effect on
everything, including ourphysical being.
So I'm all about that.
So you are a professionalorganizer.
Tell us what it is you do.
Give us some info about yourbusiness.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
So, like you said in the intro, I like to think of it
as organizing, and the pastaffects the present.
If you get present, organizedand running smoothly, that
affects your future.
Those things all go togetherand you're right Clutter can be
a humongous weight and drain ona person and a household a
(04:47):
household and so it is a verygratifying industry that I'm
working on, because you do getto see up close and personal the
effect you have on people'slives when you help them
declutter or make sense of theirspace, optimize their space.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
You know, I did an episode early on in this series
on habits and I talked about anight when I was around 29, 30
years old, where I came homeafter a very long day and had to
drive through a blizzard overmountains and what should have
taken an hour and a half tookthree and a half hours and I was
white knuckled and incrediblystressed and I walked into my
(05:18):
apartment and it was a disasterarea and I sat down to try to
come down off of this stressfuldrive and I couldn't relax and I
looked around and I said thisis ridiculous.
My home needs to be a refuge,not a place that causes more
stress.
So I put on a pot of coffee andI pulled an all-nighter.
I told this story in thisepisode and I organized
(05:39):
everything and what it did was.
It made me become very quicklyaddicted to being organized, to
having my poop in a group,because what I noticed very
quickly was how much moreefficient I was at my job, how
much more efficient I was ateverything, and so I got very
into that.
I quickly created habits whereif I'm making a sandwich, I'm
(06:01):
putting the food away before Ieat the sandwich.
If I'm done eating, I'm goingto put those dishes right in the
dishwasher, you know, et cetera, and keep everything organized
in a place, because what's thatold phrase?
You know, everything has aplace, a place for everything.
I finally grew up and did that,you know, and what it did for
my life in terms of a change formy life.
(06:22):
So I think this is really greatthat you're here to talk about
this, because this could reallymake a difference for everybody.
Okay, give us your overallphilosophy on decluttering.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Well, sort of to your point, I would say that while
clutter in general there arestudies that show it does cause
stress, the amount of clutter orthe amount of organization that
works for you, it is veryindividual.
And so you want to payattention to that and just
(06:55):
remember that it's not theorganizing that works for you.
Matt works for everyone.
Or what you see on Instagram isthe answer you know, for
everyone.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
As I learned in my marriage, we both have different
perceptions about that andwe've learned to.
You know, I have my spaces, shehas hers, and yeah, no exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yep, and the other thing I would say is that you
know it's it's important to lookat someone's clutter and not
judge that.
So again, grace being soimportant to my philosophy,
there are a lot of reasons thatclutter accumulates, and it does
not mean that person is messy,that person is lazy.
(07:35):
There are all sorts of reasons,you know, why we end up not
paying attention to the thingsthat maybe aren't optimizing our
space and causing a stress.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well, you know, in my case it wasn't that I was lazy,
I was working like crazy, but Iwas really getting eaten alive
by stress, and what I noticedwas when I got my stuff
uncluttered, it created anatmosphere where my home was a
refuge, so I could come downafter stressful days, which
helped me to recharge, to goback into the lion's den the
(08:09):
next day.
You know what I mean, and sofor me it wasn't about.
It's not about being judgmental, it wasn't about being lazy, it
was just like I was in such acrazy job that I didn't have
time I thought to continue tokeep myself organized.
But once I figured out a way todo it in a system and it took
years to practice this before Igot great at it, but once I did,
(08:30):
I noticed it had a tremendouseffect on me, right, and so I'm
not trying to suggest people arelazy either, so I'm grateful
you brought that up.
Any more to your philosophy, orshould I move on?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
No, I think you know grace and just understanding
that you want your space to bethe refuge that you pointed out
and it will just have rippleeffects throughout your life.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Yeah, so what are like?
You meet people who want towork with you, or think they
want to work with you, or aren'tsure, but no, they need.
They need to do something.
What are the most commonmisconceptions that people have
about organizing anddecluttering their stuff?
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I mean, there's definitely the initial worry
that I'm going to make them getrid of all their stuff.
You know, decluttering doesinvolve getting rid of some
stuff, but it's not a now.
Everyone must live, as MarieKondo images suggest, with a
minimum of things.
(09:31):
So, you know, worry that it'sjust I have to get rid of
everything and that's not thecase at all.
It's really about optimizingyour access to what you do have
and making sure that what youhave is meaningful to you, not
just piles of things that you'resort of ignoring and I so
appreciate the optimizing yourability to get to things,
(09:54):
because that was a big part ofthe problem for me.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I lived in a small space and often when I would
need something, I'd have to pullsix things out to get to it and
boy, how frustrating.
That is right.
And so at some point you kindof go, oh screw it, I'm just not
going to bother, and then thatcreates stress, right.
So, all right, let me ask youabout your approach here.
You get a call from a clientand before they hire you, what's
(10:21):
the discussion like?
What is it that you say to them?
And then, when they hire you,what is it you do?
How do you start?
Where is it you know?
Do you work with them?
Do you just go in and plowthrough their stuff without them
there?
I mean, give me an idea of thewhole, the whole approach and
experience.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Sure.
So there's always a phone callto start off.
Not only does that help me geta sense of what the client's
looking for, but it's alsoimportant that the client gets
to get a sense of me and what mystyle is and make sure they're
comfortable with me, becausehaving someone come into your
home is so personal.
You do need to have a littlebit of comfort and trust in that
(10:59):
person.
And that starts with the phonecall conversation and between
the phone call and then theinitial visit, the most
important thing is for me tounderstand the person's
lifestyle and goal.
Why do they want to declutter?
And it can't?
While stress is very valid, thegoal I try to drill down on
(11:24):
getting the goal as specific aspossible, because those
specifics not only help me inguiding the parameters of the
job but also help keep theclient motivated.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's the same.
It's exactly the same in lifecoaching, you know.
Someone says I want to do X,why do you want to do X?
And it takes a while to drilldown the real why.
There's a sort of surface why?
Right, but the surface why?
Isn't enough to keep themmotivated to do the work.
It's going deeper and so we'redoing a similar thing there.
I want to, before you move onwith this discussion, go back to
(11:58):
this trust thing.
Who are you going to trust toorganize your stuff more than a
library scientist, somebody whospent their lives as a librarian
?
If they can't organize it, whocan?
Right, I've just had to throwthat in.
But anyways, back to yourapproach.
Okay, so you've talked to themand they've established some
trust and they decide okay,we're going to pull the trigger
(12:18):
on this and hire you and goforth.
What do you do?
How do you?
How do you go about this?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
So I do offer different services.
Some people are hiring me inpart because they do not have
the time to organize theirclutter and they really do want
me to work independently,following the guidelines that
we've talked about.
And when that is the case andthe independent project there's
always a lot of communication,but it really is me just going
in to a space and starting thesort starting to consolidate and
(12:51):
then asking questions aboutwell, we've got this category of
things I think you know.
Are you ready to get rid of allof them?
Does that not suit you?
Maybe we can move it to anotherspace.
Then there are people who wantto work with me, do a paired
project, and that you know theadvantage to that.
Of course, it's still what isyour goal and let's hold on to
(13:12):
that.
But when we're working together, there's really more of a
transference of skills.
So they're starting to takeaway a lot of the mindsets and
the ideas that can turn intohabits that make it easier for
them, moving forward, to takethose skills and use them on
another project in their houseon their own, maintain those
(13:36):
organizing systems movingforward.
So it always comes back to thegoal, though.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
So you're teaching as well.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, and I imagine people don't just hire you to
clean up their attic.
They might hire you to helpthem learn, uh uh, an efficient
um filing system right.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, so um it.
I have worked with businessesand nonprofits.
Um, you know, it's interesting.
I do focus so much on theresidential and the people who
need the relief of the stress,need to feel that their home is
a refuge, and that's sogratifying to me, that kind of
(14:19):
work.
But I do work with businessesand in a business case they're
looking to save money.
But I do work with businessesand in a business case they're
looking to save money.
You know they understand thatif we can access our files
quicker, that's saving us money,that's productivity and that
that's that's money saved.
They're looking to make surethat their supply closet is
organized so that they're notbuying more staplers when they
(14:41):
already have seven staplers.
They just can't find thestaplers.
So absolutely on that end.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
But I imagine people need files.
I mean, I have a filing systemat home.
There's a lot of papers,there's, you know, stuff from my
mom who's in a nursing home,there's my stuff, my taxes, all
kinds of information that has tobe filed.
Boy it's.
It's a constant, um, kind ofexperimentation on my part to
(15:08):
get it to be perfectly efficient.
Right, do you help people,individuals, with that?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, because you're right.
I think it's very easy to endup with just boxes and boxes of
papers and no real sense of ifall the papers in that box are
even worth keeping, let alone.
I think these are all somethingI should have access to, but
I'm never going to be able tofind the important stuff when I
(15:36):
need it, the important stuffwhen I need it.
And you know, the challenge,especially with paper filing, is
it takes a lot of time.
That just takes time, but whenyou get to the end of it, it's
extremely worthwhile knowingthat you will be able to put
your hands on some paperwork foran elderly parent who you're
(15:58):
helping out with, or your taxesat the end of the year.
I mean, that's a uh.
That really is life changing,and that is then so much easier
to maintain moving forward oncethe filing system set up for you
.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Well, let's move on a littlemore practical advice here.
Um, we want to give some tipsto people, right?
I know you don't want to giveaway the store because you want
to be hired by them, but let'sgive them some tips, right?
Where should someone start?
If they're feeling overwhelmedby clutter, they decide I've got
to do something about it, butoh my God, I'm so overwhelmed.
Where should they start?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
And let me just backtrack a minute and say you
know, I have no problem at alltalking very specifically about
what I do.
In fact, one of the otherservices I offer is a DIY
service, so it's a two-hourpackage where a person I spend
an hour with the person in theirspace and then I spend an hour
devising a very detailed planthat includes every single thing
(16:54):
that I would do in their case,and they're free to take that
plan and move forward with it,because I am an educator and so
it's not.
I'm not a gatekeeper.
I'm not at all intending tomake people think that they
can't do this on their own.
I want to empower people.
(17:15):
In an ideal world, they hire meonce for a job and the job
sometimes jobs take six months,sometimes that are one week, but
at the end of that job, they dofeel empowered to move forward
on their own.
That's that is important to me.
So and think about it you knowthere's so many tips and
articles online about how todeclutter, so it's not the
(17:38):
information so much.
It is sometimes, though, verybeneficial to have a person
who's not connected with yourpossessions to help you get over
the initial start and sometimesjust wade through the mountain
of your possession.
So I just wanted to put thatout there.
(17:59):
The other thing I will say inrelation to people feeling
overwhelmed there is a fabulousbook the author is Casey Davis
and the book is called how toKeep House While Drowning.
It speaks so specifically tothe person who is just sits down
(18:19):
at the end of every day andlooks around at their house and
just sort of wants to crybecause they are stressed in
their life.
They're looking around, theyknow there's so many things that
they should be doing in theirhouse and they just can't.
They just can't.
So I highly recommend it.
And one thing she says is startwith one thing and if you're
(18:39):
overwhelmed, I'm literally goingto tell you look around and
decide.
You know what?
I could pick up all the dirtynapkins and tissues and trash in
my house and I'm just going todo that and that's all I'm going
to do today.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, start small, right, start small.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, let's start small.
Let's start small and let'sstart very specifically, like
just taking the trash, thesedirty napkins and things off the
floor.
That's one layer.
That then your brain is notoverwhelmed by or dirty laundry.
You know you've got you've gotkids running through the house
(19:16):
and they take off their T-shirtand their socks and you know
they're just sprinkledeverywhere.
So fine, you know your one tasktoday is just go through, pick
up all that dirty laundry andbonus, if you have the energy,
to throw it in the wash and seta timer so that when it's done
you throw it in the dryer.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
You know I did an episode on New Year's
resolutions.
Why they fail?
Cause only 9% of people whomake New Year's resolutions
actually succeed at them.
I've done episodes on habits.
It all comes down to a similarthing Start small, Just do a
little bit here.
A little bit, it will accrueover time.
You'll be amazed how much thataccrues just like an investment,
(19:49):
you know.
So that's great.
Okay, here's the thing.
I have a it's not, I'm justputting a hypothetical out there
.
I have a bunch of stuff that'sstill in reasonably good
condition, All right Clothes,electronics, furniture, et
cetera.
But I just do not want to bebothered with all that would go
into selling or donating them.
What a pain in the ass to me.
My wife loves doing that stuff,but I can't stand it Right, so
(20:12):
my inclination is just to throwit all in the trash.
All right.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
What do you have to say to people like me?
Hit me so I will tell you.
This is another reason to hirea professional organizer,
because we take away that stuffand deal with it for you.
So, if you know, so part ofwhat I do is, at the end of
every session, I take up to acarload away with me, and it's
things that need recycled, it'sthings that need to go to a
(20:40):
donation center, things that nolonger work for the person in
their space.
And look, I could leave you apile of things to recycle and a
pile of things to take to thedonation center, but that's its
own burden, and so that's asignificant service, that a
professional organizer.
It's pretty common thatorganizers will do that, but
(21:02):
it's something that I do.
And, yeah, you don't have todeal with that Now.
If you want to sell it, I don'tdo that.
There are some organizers whowill actually sell items for you
.
I will try to connect you.
If you have certaincollectibles or certain things
where a specialist would behelpful, I'll try to make
(21:22):
connections or set up a spacefor you.
I did this for one client whereshe loved to buy old furniture,
refurbish it a little bit andthen flip it, but it had become
overwhelming for her.
It was a hobby.
She used to love it, but it wasjust turning into a pile of
(21:43):
junk that she couldn't really.
Her brain no longer accessedits creative energy, and so one
thing I did for her was I set upa space in her house that would
always be used as a stagingarea, so once she finished a
piece, she had a place to put it, take photos, leave it there
until it sold and then move inanother piece.
So that's the sort of thing Ican do if you're interested in
(22:04):
selling things.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Well, but so worth it if you're going to take things
to recycling for me and then Idon't have to deal with the
guilt that I threw this thingout.
Oh, that's so worth it.
All right.
Well, this is great.
We're going to take a quickbreak and when we come back
we've got a lot more to talkabout here, so hang tight with
Sarah Hackenberg and me.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Feeling overwhelmed, Struggling to find balance in
your daily life?
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, MattBrooks offers personalized
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
(22:52):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace, Matt is here to be your
partner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Okay, well, this show is definitely running along
people and we're going to let itbecause this is great stuff.
I'm loving this stuff, allright, so let's go a bit deeper
into this because, as you talkeda bit about layers of stuff and
working through your layers, Ithink there's layers in our
heads that we got to go throughtoo.
I imagine that people sometimeshave real issues with
decluttering.
I mean partying with things,especially sentimental items.
(23:36):
I imagine it's really tough forpeople.
It's you know some people.
I mean I can.
I'm pretty good at saying yeah,it was sentimental to me once.
I can let it go now, but noteverybody can do that.
So what are the most commonchallenges or resistance points
people face during declutteringand how do you help them
overcome that?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
You're so right that it does not come easy to a lot
of people, and in fact that'ssort of the point.
You have to practice it.
It's sort of like a muscle youhave to start off with, you know
, five pound weights and thenbuild.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
It's a muscle you got to practice.
I like that Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, so and if you're going to practice, you're
going to need to start withthings that are easy.
So you know cleaning suppliesyou just have a ton of them
everywhere and you usually endup with duplicates and things
that are expired or empty.
You know that's an easy placeto start expired food in your
pantry.
You know that's there's not alot sentimental there and the
(24:40):
expiration date is sort of afact and it's easier to deal
with that kind of thing, yousort of build up, um, and then,
as you get into things, like youknow, books, uh books aren't
necessarily the most sentimentalthings, but a lot of times
there's attachment to them, orclothes, uh things that you're
still just not sure abouthanging on to.
(25:00):
So then I have a framework andyou want to think about four
things.
You want to think do I love it?
Do I need it?
The 2020 method could I easilyreplace it?
You know, in 20 minutes, for 20bucks, could I replace it if I
ever need it?
All those are, you know, yes orno's.
And then finally, this is thebiggie, if this thing was
(25:25):
covered in mold, would you putthe effort into cleaning it so
you could keep it?
Is it that important?
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I like that.
I'm going to borrow that, ifyou don't mind.
I know somebody Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
If it's colored mold.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
would you clean it?
I see, yeah.
So kind of like silver thatyou've let set for a long time
needs to be really worked.
You got to really clean that upand that takes some work.
If that's worth it to you, thenfine, otherwise ditch it right.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Okay, yeah yep.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So, when somebody's got to declutter sentimental
items, you know and there aretimes where we need to let some
stuff go how do you handle it?
What's your advice?
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah.
So you know, we've beenpracticing, we've been
strengthening those musclesworking up to this.
But you get to the point whereit's the hard stuff and the
first thing to do is sort ofgather, like all the photographs
that you have or all the oldVHS tapes you have, and just
think about the quantity thatyou have.
(26:28):
Sometimes looking at thequantity is a helpful point.
It also allows you to think.
You know, can I truly accessand enjoy this right now, in
this state?
Whether it's boxes of photos oryou know, just dozens and
dozens of VHS tapes.
(26:48):
Even if you have a VHS player,still you will never be able to
watch all of them and start toconsider that.
And so then, how can we takethe most important memories, the
most important sentimentalitems and turn them into a
collection that you really canenjoy?
(27:09):
Sometimes that's enough toallow someone to let go of.
I have a client who lovesanything related with tea and
tea cups and she used to givetea parties and she just kept
accumulating these things andit's still very, very important
to her and she would like to getback to doing that again.
(27:30):
But as we gather all of thematerials she has, she's
recognizing that she will neverbe able to use all of them and
so going to be able to weed outsome of them and pass them on.
The other thing is that, whileI don't personally digitize
photos or things like that, I dohave connections sometimes
(27:53):
discounts, because of mynational organizations I'm part
of that I can connect clients toto help them digitize their VHS
.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Well, I'll tell you, I used to have about three to
4,000 CDs and when they came out, when iTunes match came out,
where you could just load themonto your computer, oh my God,
it took me a long time to loadthose on.
I would you know, I'd do it atmy office every day.
I would do a few a day again,little by little, but it accrued
(28:24):
and eventually they were all.
Now they're all on my phone,they're all in a cloud somewhere
and it cost me $25 a year tokeep them there.
And then I gave them all awayto someone who loves music.
But what a relief, because Iused to move a lot and every
time I moved I had to pack thoseCDs into multiple file boxes.
(28:45):
And I don't have to deal withthat anymore.
It's so awesome.
Let me ask you now about you'redecluttering and there's a
married couple and they'redisagreeing on what to get rid
of and what to keep.
What do you do then?
Do you just run for the hillsand say I'll be back when you
figure it out, or what?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Right, my degree is not in therapy and this is, you
know, beyond me.
So I would say there are threethings when people are
disagreeing about what to let goof.
The first is that you need tohave agreed on your major goal.
You know why are youdecluttering, so trying to make
sure that you are in step withthe overall goal.
(29:29):
You know it can't be well, mygoal is that you get rid of half
of your clothes, or you gethalf your rid of all of your you
know, car parts or whatever.
The second thing is to start toagain flex your muscles together
and work on low hanging fruit.
You know what can you agree ontogether to declutter.
(29:52):
So those two things help getyou in sync.
And then the third step is look, sometimes there is a maybe
pile, one person just not readyto get rid of X yet, and that's
fine, you've already made someaccomplishments together.
So then you have to agree allright, this maybe pile pile we
(30:13):
are going to set aside in theattic, in the spare room, for
six months and we're going tocome back to it in six months
and reassess has it been used?
How are you feeling about itnow?
Sometimes time is veryinformative to making these
decisions.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Okay, and I like the idea of this flexing the muscle
thing because you start small.
You can, over time, start withthe things you agree on.
You start to notice the effectit's having on you, that it's
having a really positive effect.
In my case it became anaddiction.
I became addicted to it.
I wanted everything out of mylife that was weighing me down
(30:53):
and it really oh my God, itreally made a difference to me.
But you're right, we're alldifferent.
But I like this idea ofstarting with the low hanging
fruit, starting with things youcan agree on.
But if you're going todeclutter a lot, so you got a
lot.
You just let it all build upover the years.
It's going to take a longperiod of time, especially if
you're doing it layer by layer.
(31:14):
How do you maintain motivation?
Or how do I know you maintainmotivation because it's what
you're doing for a living?
But how do other peoplemaintain that motivation six
months later when they're stillin the process of decluttering?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh yeah, absolutely, which is why it is so critical
to have a very specific goalthat you're working towards.
But even that, you know it'stiring.
It's tiring physically, it'stiring emotionally to just keep
letting go of more and morestuff.
So, to your point, you want tomaintain small steps, you want
(31:50):
to maintain that progress, evenif it is just little by little.
I often tell people to set atime limit or a task goal.
So, for example, I have a clientwho has more clothes than they
have space to store, but theyalso love clothes, and so it's a
(32:11):
project to go through them.
And so it's it's a project togo through them, and so the it's
some days.
Well, I have, there wereclothes in storage.
So I have three today, threebags of clothes that I'm going
to go through.
And here I am sitting you know,note to the note to self always
sit it getting ready for thisprocess, with a bag for
(32:35):
donations and a bag for trash or, you know, soiled clothing, so
that you are ready, you justready to pack it away.
So, but that's it.
Once you are done with the threebags of clothes, you're done
for the day You're walking away.
Or once you've done it, for 45minutes.
The timer goes off, walk awayand set rewards.
You know yourself at the end ofthat time.
(32:57):
Oh, you know what I'm going todo right now.
What?
What is your reward?
Maybe it's I am going to nowsit and watch 20 minutes of my
favorite show and then go aboutmy day.
I love to suggest to families,as they are trying to not only
declutter their home for theadults, but also teach kids,
(33:18):
that this is an important skill.
I love to teach families that,hey, you know what on Saturdays
in the morning, say, we are allgoing to spend 20 minutes in our
bedroom and we are going topick up everything off the floor
and put it in its place and atthe end of that 20 minutes we're
going to go do a familyactivity for that reward,
building in that habit.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I like it.
And yeah, if you're going tobuild new habits and I did
several shows on this you got tocreate rewards.
You have to.
It's part of the habit loop,what's called the habit loop,
but all right.
Well, let's talk about quickly,about how I know this is not a
quick thing, but let's just kindof touch on it.
How does clutter affect mentalhealth and productivity from
(34:02):
your perspective?
From my perspective, it affectsmental health and productivity
dramatically.
But what do you see from yourperspective?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Oh, yes, I mean, you did talk about it at the
beginning of this episode andyou're so right, and there are.
There are studies that showthat, um, you know, an excess of
things affects people's mentalhealth.
It causes stress, it reducesthe ability to focus, uh, which
is so huge for?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
all of us that's a big one is the the distracting
elements to this.
It's especially your workspace.
If your workspace is cluttered,boy, you're not going to be
able to focus in the way youthink you are.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I have had some people comment that, oh, their
house is cluttered but itdoesn't bother them and it's
fine and they're productive, andthis is just what works for me,
and that is again.
We'll say that is true.
You know, different brain types.
Were are able to ignore certainthings or enjoy having seeing
(34:59):
all of their creative products,artistic products, whatever, in
front of them.
That helps their creativeprocess is, if your clutter is
starting to affect things likethe livability of your home, if
it's starting to affect yourrelationships, if it's starting
(35:20):
to cause you some emotionalstress, paying attention to that
and is it causing, yes, theinability to focus?
Sometimes even there's afinancial burden that can come
with being overly cluttered.
So, while you think this isworking for you, great, but just
do pay attention to thosethings.
(35:41):
Yeah, I'll stop there and letyou.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Ok, I know no no, I think that's you know.
I think, look, and you're right, different strokes for
different folks.
But I do think that it's prettyproven that too much clutter is
going to cause you stress inone way or another.
It just is.
And so it really does help tohave your poop in a group, as I
like to say.
Let's just talk really quicklyabout you.
Know, what have you observed inclients that have been
(36:09):
successful?
What's the most satisfyingtransformation you've witnessed
as a professional organizer?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
You know, I would say they fall into two categories.
And the first is I have watchedsomeone this is in an
independent project, so theyhadn't been working with me so
they come into their bedroom,which was no longer cluttered,
and I just watched the weightfall off their shoulder and
(36:39):
peace descend.
I mean, it is so dramatic andfor them to just give a huge,
huge sigh of relief, almost indisbelief, that this is now
there's space, right, it'sincredible.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Oh, it's got to be satisfying for you too, right
yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:57):
So satisfying.
I mean it makes me feel likeyou say, we've both transitioned
relatively recently into newcareers and it is makes me feel
very good about the career, thenew career that I've chosen, so
gratifying to be able to helpsomeone that way.
And the second category iswatching someone's creative
energy return.
(37:18):
You know they have beensurrounded by these piles that
they have started to just ignorebecause that's the way they're
surviving.
And when those piles are nolonger there and they're able to
look at their space and justwatch their brain suddenly think
, ooh, wow, now I can once againdo this craft that I've wanted
(37:40):
to.
Or, oh wait, now I canrearrange my furniture or I'm
going to be able to do this newthing in this space, and them
get so excited and pumped aboutthe possibilities again that
their space offers them.
That's also just really, reallygratifying.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
What a great point that it opens up your creativity
again.
That's, that's.
Oh yeah, it has a lot ofbenefits.
All right, we're just aboutdone.
I got one last question for you.
What's your favoritedecluttering story?
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So while these other things are so gratifying, I will
just take the spotlight for asecond and say the best
decluttering story I have stillis my own, because I took a four
bedroom house that I was livingin with my then husband and our
goal was that we wanted totravel and we had decided we
(38:35):
were going to travel for alength of time.
So, with that goal in mind, Idecluttered and got rid of
everything in that four bedroomhouse and whittled it down to
only the necessities we weregoing to need for a year long
trip in a camper.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
And did not just put everything in several storage
units.
I actually truly got rid of allof it.
And again to just puteverything in several storage
units, I actually truly got ridof all of it.
And again to the point thatit's all about the goal.
It allowed us to do what wewanted, which was just sort of
travel freely for a year.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
It allowed you to do what you wanted.
That's the phrase I want peopleto remember.
Yeah, no, this is great andthis is such great advice for
all of us.
I think you're right.
Everybody's different.
Some people can deal withclutter better than others, but
a little bit of decluttering isnot a bad idea for anybody.
And we're just into the newyear.
Now it's a good time not only tobe thinking about New Year's
(39:28):
resolutions, but also, you know,getting your freeing up some
space in your life, in your mind, in your physical spaces.
It can make a lot of difference, and I'm just gonna I'm not a
professional organizer, but I'mgonna reiterate my rule.
I know there's a lot of rulesor rules of thumb in
professional organizing.
Like we talked about the 2020rule.
There's other rules, but I'mgonna just I think my rule's the
(39:51):
best If it hasn't been touchedor moved in four years, ditch it
Right, Unless it's like apicture of your mother or
something.
That's not what I'm talkingabout, but you know, like in my
closet, every once a year, I gothrough my closet and I'm like
have I worn this in four years?
No, it's gone.
It's got to be gone.
So, Sarah Hackenberg, you arethe best.
Thank you so much for comingback on and good luck with your
(40:14):
business.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Thank you Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Yeah, no, this is great.
What a cool business you chose.
I really risky, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I think so too.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Any business like mine is risky too.
You know anything you're goinginto, but it's really cool and
there's national organizationsand everything.
I mean it's pretty impressiveand not a lot of people know
about it.
So, sarah Hackenberg, thank youfor being with us.
Everyone else, thanks fortuning in and listening again.
If you enjoyed this, please hitthat like or subscribe button
so you'll know when I'm droppingnew episodes, and I've been
(40:45):
putting this out there lately.
If you have an idea for a topicyou'd like me to cover on the
show, shoot me an email, matt atmattbrookscoachingcom.
Just shoot me an email.
Tell me what it is.
If it's something I can pulloff, I will happily do that, and
I'd love to get your ideas andyour feedback.
So feel free to write me, mattat mattbrookscoaching.
(41:06):
That's it for now.
Be well, we'll catch you nexttime on the Barrier Busting
Podcast.
Thank you.
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