November 4, 2024 • 40 mins
What if you feel a strong urge to change course in midlife Join me, Matt Brooks, as I sit down with Sarah Hackenberg, who shares her extraordinary journey from a music major to a 20-year veteran in library science, and now a thriving entrepreneur. Sarah's story is one of adaptability and resilience, showcasing how skills honed as a school librarian can seamlessly transition into the world of entrepreneurship with her business, Grace in Cycles LLC.
Sarah's tale of transformation is a testament to the power of embracing change and the wisdom garnered from two decades in a challenging career. We explore how her ability to adapt to fluctuating school environments has equipped her with the confidence needed to tackle the entrepreneurial world. Moreover, we delve into the topic of ageism, discussing the vital role of experience and wisdom in society and how we can shift cultural perspectives to value these assets. Sarah's reflections offer an inspiring look at how our priorities and expertise evolve with age, encouraging listeners to pursue new endeavors with conviction.
As we wrap up our conversation, Sarah opens up about the emotional challenges of stepping into unfamiliar territories, particularly in midlife, and the strategies she uses to maintain focus and optimism. From navigating social media marketing to leveraging motivational resources, Sarah's story is filled with powerful strategies for overcoming doubt and embracing new paths. With compelling statistics on midlife entrepreneurship, we conclude with a celebration of the potential for success at any age, urging listeners to follow their passions beyond conventional career boundaries.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
All right, welcome everybody.
This is Matt Brooks.
(00:55):
Once again, welcome you to theBarrier Busting Podcast.
We've been talking aboutpivoting, or I've been talking
about pivoting, and, as promised, I now have a series of guests
coming on, people that haveactually done it, who, can, you
know, shed some light.
We've been talking about whatthe textbooks say about pivoting
and then my own approach alittle bit, but we're gonna hear
from them about their approach,their challenges, how they came
(01:17):
to make the decision in thefirst place, which I think is
the most important part.
So I'm very excited now to havea few guests in a row and, just
so you know, heads up, after afew weeks I'm going to have a
professional recruiter on totalk to us about what we should
know from that perspective.
But for today, I have a reallyunique pivot Like this is one I
(01:38):
never would have thought of in amillion years and it's, I think
, very, very cool.
My guest today is SarahHackenberg, who owns and
operates her own business as aprofessional organizer.
Did you even know that was athing?
I didn't, but it is.
After majoring in music atVassar College and a brief stint
singing semi-professionally inAustria, sarah went back to
school to study her otherpassion, library science.
(02:00):
Receiving her master's degreein library and information
science from Long IslandUniversity, sarah spent 20 years
as a librarian and educator inthe schools and, as such, has
taught hundreds and hundreds ofchildren and adults the lifelong
skills they need to find anduse quality information.
Realizing that she had goalsbeyond her original career dream
(02:20):
, sarah left teaching after 20years to pursue operating her
own business as a professionalorganizer, opening Grace in
Cycles LLC.
To help people organize theirpast, present and future.
Sarah offers an empathetic andefficient approach to optimizing
her clients' space and time.
She is a member of the NationalAssociation of Productivity and
(02:42):
Organizing Professionals andthe Institute for Challenging
Disorganization.
I love that one.
I got to hear about that one.
You can find more about Sarahand her business by visiting
wwwgraceincyclescom.
Sarah, it is great to have youhere, welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Thanks, glad to be here, matt.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, professional organizer.
Like I said, I didn't even knowthis was a thing.
And not only is it a thing, butyou have national organizations
, right?
Talk about that.
Well, we'll get into that in aminute.
Let's start first with youroriginal career.
So you went into libraryscience and I know several
people in that industry and thatindustry has gone through a ton
(03:22):
of changes.
So when we're talking aboutpivoting, you pivoted from being
a singer to going into libraryscience and you start out in a
business that, at the time youstarted, was pretty much all
about books and records and CDsand things like that.
And over the 20 years you didit, there were massive changes
to how libraries work.
Right, talk about what kind ofchanges took place, how you had
(03:45):
to embrace technology and howyou adapted or tolerated those
changes.
Give us an idea about all that.
I'm sure there's a lot there.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, it did change a lot when I started, so I've
been a school librarian at theelementary level.
When I started, my first schoolstill had a card catalog at the
elementary level when, Istarted my first school still
had a card catalog the paperversion Love it.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I remember those vividly.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely A big part of my childhood, but pretty
antiquated even in 2003 when Istarted.
And you know, 20 years later,not only was the catalog for our
physical items because we stilldid have physical items all
online, but you're dealing withdatabases and you're dealing
with, even at the elementarylevel, talking to kids about how
to differentiate good and badinformation on the internet, and
(04:35):
it's a wild rodeo out there onthe internet and there's a lot
of education still needed, whichI actually found very
interesting about continuing tobe a librarian in this day and
age.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, because I mean we were always taught as kids
and I'm an old guy, but we werealways taught as kids.
You know, don't believeeverything you read, and that
concept is now on steroids withthe Internet.
But I mean you probably.
I mean I could just imagine howmuch hair you pulled out of
your head, you know, going fromcard catalog and the type of
organization in a library thatyou had to having digital
(05:07):
options that you had.
I mean, figure out the softwareto loan out digital things and
get them back or whatever youhad to do.
I mean there were reallymassive changes in the last 20
years, am I?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
right, massive changes, but so much of that is
automated that it really thatend of it of managing it is not
the headache you might imagine.
There's software out there forall that stuff and whether
you're circulating an electronicbook or a print book, that's
(05:44):
push was just the constanteducation of kids and adults
that libraries and librariansare still relevant in the
Internet age.
You know, that was actuallyprobably the most challenging
thing that I ran into was justpeople like hey, it's on the
Internet, why do we need alibrary anymore?
Sure, people like hey, it's onthe internet, why do we need a
(06:07):
library anymore?
But the truth is that theinternet has only increased the
amount of information we canaccess, and so the need to
differentiate good and badinformation just got more and
more important.
And it's harder, at least withbooks.
To your point, even a book thatdoesn't have great quality, it
(06:28):
still went through a publishingprocess, right, and this is not
the case with the internet.
Websites have no publisher oreditor that runs some sort of
grammar check or research todouble check all their facts,
copy editing and and it's a truepoint, especially with news now
.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I mean, there was a time where it did not go out
until it got across an editor'sdesk, and I always think of Ben
Bradley with the Washington Postduring the Nixon, the whole
Watergate thing.
Nothing went into that paperuntil he was confident that it
was that what he was hearing wasreal.
There was always that buffer,and that buffer doesn't exist
(07:07):
anymore, which makes it even.
And, of course, I've got ayoung son trying to teach him
how to differentiate.
So before we move on becausewe're here, can you give us a
little quick advice about what,how to differentiate between
garbage and real information, orhow to process what we're
seeing?
Because now we're having thingsgo by us and rapid fire on Tic
(07:28):
Tac and Tic Toc, excuse me andInstagram and other things, and
you know everything looks good.
So how do you know what's realand what's bullshit?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
It is a huge, huge challenge.
And look, there are pros andcons to the day and age in which
we live.
Right, the opportunity to hearimmediate news from people on
the ground has played incredibleroles in things like, you know,
(07:57):
freedom movements and rightsand human rights emergencies
that immediate information isgreat.
Emergencies that immediateinformation is great when you
have a minute.
Beyond that emergency, I thinkthe biggest thing to pay
attention to is just whatever isyou're seeing on TikTok, you
(08:17):
need to take with at least onegrain of salt and see if you can
verify it any other way.
I like to say a block of salt.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
And unfortunately, even theverification can be challenging,
because information is pickedup from one source and then
spread so quickly that it's easyto verify, find a second or
(08:41):
third source that say the sameinformation.
Then you need to look atcredibility of the source.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, and I also add to that, if I can, and tell me
if I'm wrong, but if it soundsat all gossipy, if it sounds at
all gossipy, ignore it.
That's my rule of thumb,because the thing about, you
know, social media in the earlydays was a way to democratize
information so people couldspeak, they could speak out,
(09:08):
they could call people out.
But the problem is, callingpeople out became like fun and
so we started demolishing peoplethat really didn't deserve to
be demolished.
So I I I say, if it sounds atall gossipy, ignore it.
Right, that's my I think that's.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, I think that's another good filter to use.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Okay, well it is.
It is a jungle out there now.
It's the wild wild West andtrying to discern what's real
and what isn't.
And even with the major newswork networks, I used to be a
news junkie and I, I almostcan't even watch or read anymore
.
I, I, you know it changes fromday to day.
So what is the truth?
What is the truth?
We just don't know anymore.
So let's all right, we couldtalk about this for three days,
(09:47):
I'm sure.
So let's move on to get uscloser to where we want to be
today.
First, what did you learn inthose 20 years of education that
you've taken with you into yournew life?
I mean, you have a lot of lifeexperience now.
What does that allow you tobring the table as a small
business operator and as aprofessional organizer?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, one thing just a reality about being an
elementary school librarian isthat you frequently shifted
school buildings.
So that meant I regularly wasmeeting new people, new groups
of students, new teachers.
I was walking into new spacesand having to assess how well
they matched my vision and goalsfor the population.
(10:28):
So that gave me a lot ofconfidence, certainly gave me a
lot of practice in creatingvisions and then paying
attention to the details andmaking them happen, and I think
that's huge as a business owner.
And then honestly, just withage, I think some confidence
comes with that, some shiftingof goals and some awareness of
(10:51):
what I wanted in my 30s is maybenot what I want in my 50s.
I have different priorities now.
I've definitely become a goodproblem solver.
You have to get creative ineducation to make things work
for your kids.
So all those things are servingme well as I start out on my
new business.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Well, I think you're right.
I think just your comment on theheels of me doing a show on
ageism and pivoting in your 50s.
And I talk about how mostcultures revere older people,
but we have gotten to a pointwhere we're just throwing them
out and that's a lot ofexperience and expertise to just
, you know, discard.
And now that people are livinglonger and healthier lives, we
(11:33):
need to embrace older people andthat wisdom I mean when I and I
say that when we were young wewould laugh at old people, we
would roll our eyes at oldpeople, but we sought them out
because we knew they had answersto things we had no clue about.
And we've kind of lost that inthis world.
And I'm going to be bangingthis topic home a lot in this
podcast because it's personalfor me and I know it's personal
for you and there's a lot ofvalue in taking up 30 years of
(11:57):
experience and applying it tosomething else.
So I'm going to be I'm going tobe a bit of a pain in the butt
with people on this one becauseit's personal.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
It's so true.
I love, though, that rememberwhen someone was 40, we gave
them an over the hill party.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And now 40 is like.
Well, I'm just coming into mymy best time and I think maybe
60 is comparable age, but no onegets an over the hill party
anymore.
So I do appreciate that changein attitude towards aging.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Well, let's hope it continues to change.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
You came to a place where you realized you needed a
change.
You've been teaching for 20years, and so let's let's talk
about this a minute, because Ithink this is the whole point of
pivoting is coming to thatplace and realizing something
does need to change in your life, and you're not sure what.
Um, what?
First of all, give us a generalidea of what was happening that
(12:53):
created the frustration or thediscomfort or whatever it was
that led you to make this changeor want to make a change.
Not, we're not specifically atprofessional organizing yet, but
you're becoming aware thatsomething needs to change.
Talk about that process, thatphase.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Well, look, not only has librarianship changed
drastically in 20 years, so haseducation.
I think a large part of it hasto do with the emphasis on
testing and test scoresconnected with funding and I
understand schools need fundingright but unfortunately that
(13:31):
emphasis on testing, in myopinion, has become a big
obstacle in the way of teachersand administrators trying to
give kids what they need atwhere they are at.
I think the other big change isthat society in general has
begun to expect more and morefrom schools.
(13:54):
Schools are providing safetynets for so many things, from
basics like food and clothing,and there's only so much that
schools and teachers can give.
Now, for the last few years, Iwas working in a district where
I saw so many kids coming intoschool, dealing with food
(14:17):
insecurity, dealing with traumathat wasn't being addressed,
dealing with a lack of parentalsupport, and I worked with a
team of teachers whom I admiredso much.
They were giving 110% everysingle day, working outside of
the school day constantly, andthe challenge was that we all
(14:41):
knew we still weren't givingthese kids everything they
needed.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know it's funny, you you?
The first point that youbrought up and I think these are
, that's a really interestingpoint that's a middle school
teacher in a district wherethere were a lot of people from
Columbia.
Most of the kids did not have afull grasp of English and he
(15:13):
was the testing phase.
That second half of the yearwould cause him a lot of anxiety
and sleepless nights because hewanted to be the guy that
helped them where they were andunfortunately they were forced
to be in a place they weren'tnecessarily ready for and it
caused all kinds of stress.
And I agree, I think it's acomplicated thing to how do we
(15:34):
assess schools and give themfunding.
But this is not necessarily, inmy opinion, the approach and
I'm not an educator but this isnot the approach that's going to
really help kids in the longrun.
And it does tie your hands, asa teacher, from wanting to do
the things you can and you knowyou can do to help that those
students grow from where theyare right now.
(15:54):
Right, I'm sure that I'm surethere were a lot of days you got
in your car and drove homeyelling and screaming in the car
, right.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh my goodness, yes, oh my goodness.
And I know that I wasn't theonly one.
Um and again, I I've workedwith teachers for 20 years.
They're an amazing giving,generous, creative, problem
solvers, compassionate educatedgroup of people, they are heroes
and, like you said, though,unfortunately often their hands
(16:23):
are tied to meet kids wherethey're at, and that takes a
toll.
It takes a toll a lot of extrademands, extra pressures, just
as far as all that the kidsneeded and therefore challenges
(16:48):
they had focusing in theclassroom, which is an
additional challenge for kids orfor teachers at that point.
So, at the end of the day, Iyou know, teachers are checking
in on each other, and I'mhearing people more and more say
hey, how was your day?
Oh, well, I survived.
And I occasionally was sayingwell, I survived.
And that is the thing that Istarted questioning, and I was
(17:13):
noting my exhaustion drivinghome and my frustration level,
which was not just dissipating,and I started to question myself
.
You know, I want more than justsurviving my days.
I believe in education, Ibelieve in the public education
system, even though it is flawed.
However, as an individual, Ithought it was time for a change
(17:36):
.
I needed more.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Well, and if it's eating you up, you're not going
to serve those kids well either.
So great, okay.
Well, this so it was, I'm surewithout getting into it, as I'm
sure it was gut wrenching to gothrough, it was such a hard
decision.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I um you know at that point, 20 years as an educator.
You're very dedicated to thekids.
You want to be part of the team.
You do love your kids and youwant to support your teeth, your
fellow teachers.
Um, it was a very hard decisionto leave, but at the end of the
day, you know, it's interesting.
I have great examples in myparents, both of whom went back
(18:10):
to college later in life tostart a second career.
My father actually then,further on down his professional
life, was downsized and decidedto open his own business to
finish out his professional life, and so I have that example in
front of me that doing somethingdifferent is possible.
You know, it's not the samethat people work in the same
(18:34):
field with the same employer for30 years.
That doesn't happen that muchanymore.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It's one.
If you listen to my series, theshows before this.
We're taping this before someof my pivoting shows come out,
but I talk about that.
I talk.
Those days my father was thathe worked for a company for his
whole career.
They took care of him, theytook care of his family.
They took care of my mom'shealth insurance for a solid
decade after my father passed.
Those days are gone, right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah.
That's not the way of the world.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
No, all right.
Well, this is.
I appreciate your being veryupfront and honest with us about
what had to be a very difficultdecision.
We're going to take a quickbreak and when we're going to
come back, we're going to getright into being a professional
organizer.
How you came to decide to dothat and what it is to start
your own business.
We will be back in just asecond.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Feeling overwhelmed, Struggling to find balance in
your daily life?
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, MattBrooks offers personalized
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
(19:48):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace, Matt is here to be your
partner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Okay, all right, let's talk about becoming a
professional organizer.
I mean, like I said, I didn'teven know that was a thing.
I'm glad it's a thing because Ithink we all need it, but like
I didn't know it was a thing, sohow did you find this?
I mean, I'm sure you've decidedI'm going to make a pivot.
Now what?
What's my pivot going to be?
So you know, fill us in on theprocess of how you started
(20:34):
thinking through ideas and thenlanded on professional organizer
.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
It was interesting because initially I just sort of
started job hunting in atraditional way, you know,
looking at job ads, reworking myresume, trying to figure out
what other job was beingadvertised that I could do.
But along at the same time Iwas also thinking, gee, I maybe
(21:01):
just want to do somethingcompletely different, and slowly
I began to put together a listof well, if I was going to have
my own business, what would thatlook like?
And I mean, my goodness, it waseverything from being a florist
to, you know, opening abookstore cafe, because, hey, I
am a librarian right, right,opening a bookstore cafe because
(21:22):
, hey, I am a librarian, rightRight.
And I also really thought, OK,if I am going to do something
completely different, what do Iwant?
And I think that's important.
Again, like I said, you know,in midlife your priorities are
different and I realized that Iwanted some autonomy, I wanted
ownership, I wanted flexibilityin my life, I wanted to feel
(21:44):
like I was being creative, thatI was problem solving, and so
that definitely led me to okay,yep, I would like to be my own
business, my own boss on my ownbusiness.
And on my list was actuallyorganizer.
On my list was actuallyorganizer.
You know, I had known enoughpeople who said I don't know
(22:11):
what to do with my garage, Iwish I had someone to help me
sort through this.
What a mess.
Or people who went through thedownsizing process and all the
challenges there.
I knew a couple of people whohad hired someone, but it wasn't
until I started researchingthat I realized oh, professional
organizing is an industry.
There are nationalorganizations, there are
standards, there's no regulationof it.
(22:32):
But it was really eye openingand a wonderful feeling to
discover these groups, discoverpeople who had been working in
this field for 20 years, whowould put together codes of
ethics to say that this isimportant.
What we do, we are going topeople's homes.
They're allowing us to seemesses or things that maybe
(22:56):
they're embarrassed about orthings that are overwhelming
them.
This is a big deal and we takethat very seriously.
We take it with a great deal ofconfidentiality and we're going
to hold each other to thesestandards.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Nice, nice.
It's very similar with thecoaching profession, you know
the same thing not regulated,but holds itself to high
standards, with a code of ethicsand confidentiality in
particular.
And I same thing with myjourney in a lot of ways.
You'll hear me in this show.
I talk about how I came to mydecision and I couldn't figure
out what to do, and then Idecided you know what I'm going
(23:28):
to.
I'm going to stop thinkingabout what I should do because I
was getting nowhere, and startmaking some lists of criteria,
and I started with the what willI absolutely not put up with
anymore.
I started with that list andthen I made other lists.
You know what's interesting tome?
And creativity, a lot of thosethings.
Autonomy, the things you talkedabout, were very interesting to
me too, and you know we onlyget one life, so if we're going
(23:49):
to make a shift, we might aswell go for it, right, we might
as well go for the gold.
So you know it's a huge changefrom the structured days of
teaching, though, to go intorunning your own business.
I have to know this myself.
You know, teaching is sometimeschaotic, or I mean teaching is
kind of structured.
It can be chaotic, of course,but your day is structured.
Running your own business canbe at times chaotic and at times
(24:12):
just dull, tedious, not much todo, the phone's not ringing
Like.
You've got to motivate yourself.
Okay, I'm going to do anothercouple of posts on Instagram
today, or whatever, and it'svery easy to just stay in your
jammies drinking coffee asopposed to.
You know, you don't have topunch a time clock, you don't
have to be anywhere.
How has this transition beenfor you in terms of having to
(24:36):
motivate yourself, not have aboss to answer to?
I mean, talk about that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I mean transition barely scratches the surface,
right?
I mean it is just night and day.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Glacial shift.
Right Glacial shift rightGlacial shift.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
That sounds appropriate.
Yes, I mean.
For a long time we were expertsin our field.
We walked into our day knowingwhat was going to happen,
knowing that even if we got somecurveballs, we had the
education and experience tohandle it Like no big deal.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
It's going to be good .
You're so, you're so hit thenail on the head for me.
Because, you know, in the olddays I'd walk into a room.
Everybody knew what my role, mytitle and my reputation was.
Now I walk into a room, nobodyknows me and I, and it's, it's a
real challenge for me to like,like, suddenly be the nobody,
having to sell themselves again.
You know, right, is it?
The same for you.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It's.
It's humbling in a way.
I mean, again, within ourfields, within our circles,
people knew us and even if theydidn't, we're meeting new people
, we know who we are and we knowall that we bring to the table,
and so there's just an extralevel of confidence there.
So, yeah, humbling, sometimesfrustrating, often overwhelming,
(25:55):
but I will say that I'mlearning so many new things that
I also find it exhilarating.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right, it is too.
It's like, it's like you knowand and I don't know about you,
but you know I'm older than youand I love it when I, when I,
when I learned some new skill,and nail it because I'm like,
see, I still got it Right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean it's almost a new leaseon life.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
So so you're making the transition pretty well.
I mean, you seem very happywith it, right?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Relatively.
I mean, you know, there aredays when I'm giving myself
extra pep talks or putting inthat you know, be confident.
Playlist.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
So we all have tools we use to, you know, keep our
spirits up.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
I'm not sure we all have them, but we all should.
That's one thing we should.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I am actually not kidding.
I have created multipleplaylists that I play when I
need a certain something or justI'm feeling energized.
I want to keep that spiritgoing.
I think that's helpful.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Absolutely smart.
Good for you, but I'll betyou've, like we said, you had to
learn a few new things startinga new business.
All right, so let's start withwhat has surprised you, what
took you by surprise.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I'll be honest, the best surprise has been how
generous people are.
Oh, as I've networked whetherit's been people within my field
or not I have found people tobe very welcoming, very
supportive, and whether theythink it's unusual to be so I'm
(27:30):
50, to be 50 and starting a newbusiness or not no one has ever
made me feel that way.
I'm networking with other smallbusiness owners and I think
there's just a generalunderstanding and appreciation
for anybody who's willing to gothrough it, and that's been a
great community to touch basewith.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
That's awesome.
That's awesome, okay.
So now, what has taken you outof your comfort zone?
And I'll start this myself,because you know, I'm good at
creating systems, I'm good atthe work that I do, but
marketing is not my thing, andso that's taken me out of my
comfort zone and challenges meon a daily basis, especially
marketing over social media.
(28:07):
How about you?
What has taken you out of yourcomfort zone?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I have to say social media too, and the thing is, I
very specifically chose not tobe on any social media
personally ever, so I didn'thave a Facebook.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
So, hello world, here's Sarah.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yes, yes.
So navigating social media and,as you point out, um, it's
essential to market ourselvesthrough social media as one
Avenue, um navigating, that hasbeen very interesting.
I still have a lot to learnthere.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Well, I don't know.
I'm just curious how you'veapproached it, because my
approach is, every time I getfrustrated, I walk away and I
say I'm going right back intomorrow and I just keep myself
going in there and thank God forYouTube, because there's so
many instructional videos onYouTube and if you're out there
making those videos, god blessyou, we need you.
So, all right, let's get intothis.
(29:08):
There are a lot of tryingmoments when you jump into a new
venture, right, and I mean, andthere are tough times and a lot
of confusion, a lot ofself-doubt.
Did I make the right decision?
Did I fuck this up?
What am I, you know, what am Idoing with my life?
And then you turn and, ifyou're like me, you go yeah, I
made the right decision.
This is odd.
I'm going to do this thingright.
(29:28):
So give us an idea.
For those people that are outthere considering pivoting, for
those people that are out therethinking you know, I'm just
really not happy.
I want to think about maybedoing something else, but the
security of the job is somethingI need.
How do you cope with thosemoments of confusion and
self-doubt and insecurity andworry and all that?
(29:50):
How do you cope.
And I know you said you gotyour playlists, but it also it
can't be just the music you playon your you know it's got to
come from down deep somehow.
What are your, what's yourapproach, your methodology?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Well, number one is surround yourself by positive
people who believe in you.
You know you need to have acore group of people who, when
you're feeling down, you cancall up and say I just need to
vent.
Who are when you're feelingdown or doubting yourself, can
say but this is great, look whatyou've achieved already.
(30:23):
You should be so proud, I'mproud of you.
You know, I think that ingeneral, we don't say that to
each other enough and you needthe positive and I would cut out
people who are naysayers.
You just need to take a breakfrom those people for a while.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Funny.
I'm going to do a show on thatat some point in the future, you
know setting boundaries andcutting people out.
I I'm very anti ghosting.
I think ghosting is one of theworst scourges that on our
planet.
Now I'm disgusted by it, but Idon't have any problem telling
somebody hey look, you know it's.
It's not working.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So all the best I'll.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
let's check up.
Let's check in with each otherat Christmas and say hi, you
know, and just cut those, notfeeling you have to be but.
But I think you're right, yougot to have a community of
people that are yourcheerleaders.
That's not always easy to find,but I'm glad you have one.
Are there any other ways thatyou deal with this within
yourself, when you have doubtand confusion?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I mean, you're right, not everyone has those people
in their lives.
I am a librarian, so you know Idefinitely seek out
motivational books.
I have a wall of quotationsthat I add to regularly, you
know, just to keep remindingmyself, because it's so easy.
Working as a small businessperson can be very isolating and
(31:38):
so easy to get in your head andjust stay there with your
blinders on so to look at thiswall and be able to pick out,
you know, one quote today that'slike oh right, okay, thanks,
mark Twain.
You know, catch the trade windsin your sails, go out there,
explore, dream.
It's not trite.
(32:00):
I think there have been timesin my life when I found
motivational sayings to be alittle less applicable to my
life.
At least that's what I thought.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
You might've rolled your eyes at a few.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Maybe, maybe.
But here I am and finding a lotof strength and just good
reminders.
We all need reminders to staythe course and keep believing
and keep trying.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
It's such a great thing to say to people and, by
the way, I have also been alittle annoyed over the years at
very fluffy positive thinkingand these sayings and these
quotes.
But what's great about today isyou can find I found a deck of
cards about affirmations for abadass and they, the the all the
affirmations are basicallysaying what the old ones say,
(32:51):
but rewritten and using the Fword a lot.
So I get a laugh out of it.
It really helps me out.
But you know, you mentionedthere's a real excitement to
doing something completelydifferent in midlife and that,
as intimidating as it can be, itcan be really cool.
You know, and I and I agree100% there is something that I
(33:11):
personally feel fired up in waysthat I've not been in a long
time.
Let's close this show with justa brief discussion about
embracing midlife changes,because that scares the shit out
of people, but it shouldn'tnecessarily.
If you hear my show from a weekago or whenever it's going to
air, I give some numbers thatare from the Global
(33:33):
Entrepreneurship Monitor abouthow successful people in their
50s and 60s are at startingtheir own businesses.
In fact, if you start abusiness in your 50s, you're
twice as likely to succeed thansomeone starting in their 30s.
If you start in your 60s, youare three times as likely to
succeed than someone starting intheir 30s.
If you start in your 60s, youare three times as likely to
succeed.
So there's something excitingabout this and, yes, it's
intimidating to make a change inmidlife, but it's also, you
(33:57):
know, when you get to midlife.
Eric Erickson's theory ofdevelopment says that midlife is
about generativity versusstagnation.
You have a choice you areeither going to stagnate or
you're going to be generative.
You're going to be giving,You're going to be involved in
the world in some way, and Ithink pivoting in midlife is
generativity on steroids.
(34:18):
It's fantastic.
Give me your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Well, I'm going to go back to something that we are
using a lot in the educationworld right now, which is
talking about the growth mindset, and the growth mindset is what
we try to teach kids, that, youknow, one mistake is not the
sign to give up.
You know, failure is anopportunity to learn.
And the growth mindset involvescontinuing to be flexible,
(34:45):
continuing to know that justbeing smart, just being talented
, is not enough.
Right, you need to put in hardwork and discipline, and that
will cause your brain literallyto strengthen the muscle, to
keep trying and stay flexibleand shaking things up, like
(35:08):
we're doing in our midlife.
Oh man, it's so great for ourbrains.
You know I mean we're, we arepromoting flexibility for
ourselves, we're being curious,we're staying active.
Look, I can't say that, um,it's not overwhelming sometimes.
Right, it's overwhelming, it'sfrustrating yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And scary, and scary.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And scary.
And you need to be prepared forthat and you have to know that
will come.
But one of the things I do tryto remind myself about is how
fortunate I am to be here atthis time making these choices
and charting a new path.
I mean, it's reallyexhilarating.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It's.
You know, we're lucky to be ina position where we can do that
and hopefully, it'll work out.
I want to go back, brieflythough, to what you were talking
about with young people.
I think that's I like to say itis.
That's the difference betweenself-esteem and something I call
false esteem.
False esteem is when you'remade to feel good all the time,
no matter what.
You just feel good.
Everybody makes you feel good.
But there's an emptiness tothat.
(36:12):
Self-esteem comes fromaccomplishment, which comes from
hard work and challengingyourself, being willing to make
mistakes, learn from thosemistakes, grow from those
mistakes.
It's the hard challenges.
I mean.
Climbing Mount Fuji is not easy, but you get to the top.
You feel real good.
I haven't done it, but one of mybest friends did, and there's a
video of him at the top lookingin a way he should look
(36:34):
exhausted and instead he looksexhilarated in a way I've never
seen him in my life.
But it's not easy training formonths and then doing that and
we need to remember that weshouldn't fear real self-esteem
and the journey to get there,that getting a trophy for
everything is not actuallyhelping us.
We need to hear George Carlindid this in one of his last
(36:55):
routines we need to hear thoseall-important words you failed,
do it again.
You know and challenge yourselfto learn right, and that what I
love.
You're absolutely right.
It takes some humility to dothis because, you know, after
being an esteemed professionalfor a long time, you start, you
know, getting egg on your faceevery now and then from
something you did or didn't knowto do or whatever.
(37:15):
But the good news is, at ourage, I think we can handle that
better, would you agree?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I definitely agree.
And if you can't or you're notsure if you can, you're going to
find out real quick and you'regoing to build that muscle and
you are going to start learninghow to deal with failure and a
little egg on your face and getback up.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And we're not serving anyone well when we're trying
to make it, when we're trying tocreate scenarios where they
avoid having to experience thosesensations.
And and yes, in my, my stage oflife, of course I want to hear
I'm brilliant all the time, butI don't get that for some reason
(37:59):
, and I think I know why it'sbecause I have to learn just
like everybody else does.
But, like you say, it's a great,it's just a spectacular gift at
this age to be challenged inthis way.
We're not stagnating, right,sarah?
You and I are not stagnating?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
No, we're not.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
All right.
Well, this has been such agreat interview.
Before we leave, any lastthoughts you want to give people
out there who are thinkingabout pivoting in their lives.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I think the last thing I would say is remember to
give yourself grace.
You know I love that word,which is actually why I put it
in the name of my business.
We put so much pressure onourselves to know the right
answer, to have it all figuredout before we take that jump,
and it just doesn't work thatway.
And so as you, as you take thisleap, remember it takes time to
(38:50):
take it all in, it takes timeto process, it takes time to
figure things out.
And just keep giving yourselfgrace as you work through it,
because you can do it.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
I love that and my listeners will be.
They're nodding right nowbecause I use the term, the
phrase give yourself grace allthe time with my clients and I
talk about it in my in mypodcast regularly.
Giving yourself grace doesn'tmean allowing yourself a pass.
You still have to face what yougot to face.
Just don't beat yourself up somuch for it, am I right?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
All right.
Well, sarah Hackenberg, thishas been a joy to have you on
the show.
I hope you'll come back in afew months and you and I can
compare notes and see how we'redoing with our midlife changes,
which does take a tremendousamount of courage, so I applaud
you for that.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I really do Same to you.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Thank you, Thank you.
So thank you for being with ustoday.
Everybody.
I want to thank you so much forlistening.
If you've enjoyed this, pleasehit the follow and subscribe
button so you'll know when Idrop new shows.
I have several more people thatI'm going to interview who've
done pivots and a job recruiterthat I'm going to have on, which
I think is going to be realhelpful.
For now, though, thanks forlistening.
(39:57):
Be well, and I'll catch younext time on the Barrier Busting
Podcast.
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
All right, welcome everybody.
This is Matt Brooks.
(00:55):
Once again, welcome you to theBarrier Busting Podcast.
We've been talking aboutpivoting, or I've been talking
about pivoting, and, as promised, I now have a series of guests
coming on, people that haveactually done it, who, can, you
know, shed some light.
We've been talking about whatthe textbooks say about pivoting
and then my own approach alittle bit, but we're gonna hear
from them about their approach,their challenges, how they came
(01:17):
to make the decision in thefirst place, which I think is
the most important part.
So I'm very excited now to havea few guests in a row and, just
so you know, heads up, after afew weeks I'm going to have a
professional recruiter on totalk to us about what we should
know from that perspective.
But for today, I have a reallyunique pivot Like this is one I
(01:38):
never would have thought of in amillion years and it's, I think
, very, very cool.
My guest today is SarahHackenberg, who owns and
operates her own business as aprofessional organizer.
Did you even know that was athing?
I didn't, but it is.
After majoring in music atVassar College and a brief stint
singing semi-professionally inAustria, sarah went back to
school to study her otherpassion, library science.
(02:00):
Receiving her master's degreein library and information
science from Long IslandUniversity, sarah spent 20 years
as a librarian and educator inthe schools and, as such, has
taught hundreds and hundreds ofchildren and adults the lifelong
skills they need to find anduse quality information.
Realizing that she had goalsbeyond her original career dream
(02:20):
, sarah left teaching after 20years to pursue operating her
own business as a professionalorganizer, opening Grace in
Cycles LLC.
To help people organize theirpast, present and future.
Sarah offers an empathetic andefficient approach to optimizing
her clients' space and time.
She is a member of the NationalAssociation of Productivity and
(02:42):
Organizing Professionals andthe Institute for Challenging
Disorganization.
I love that one.
I got to hear about that one.
You can find more about Sarahand her business by visiting
wwwgraceincyclescom.
Sarah, it is great to have youhere, welcome.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Thanks, glad to be here, matt.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, professional organizer.
Like I said, I didn't even knowthis was a thing.
And not only is it a thing, butyou have national organizations
, right?
Talk about that.
Well, we'll get into that in aminute.
Let's start first with youroriginal career.
So you went into libraryscience and I know several
people in that industry and thatindustry has gone through a ton
(03:22):
of changes.
So when we're talking aboutpivoting, you pivoted from being
a singer to going into libraryscience and you start out in a
business that, at the time youstarted, was pretty much all
about books and records and CDsand things like that.
And over the 20 years you didit, there were massive changes
to how libraries work.
Right, talk about what kind ofchanges took place, how you had
(03:45):
to embrace technology and howyou adapted or tolerated those
changes.
Give us an idea about all that.
I'm sure there's a lot there.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, it did change a lot when I started, so I've
been a school librarian at theelementary level.
When I started, my first schoolstill had a card catalog at the
elementary level when, Istarted my first school still
had a card catalog the paperversion Love it.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I remember those vividly.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely A big part of my childhood, but pretty
antiquated even in 2003 when Istarted.
And you know, 20 years later,not only was the catalog for our
physical items because we stilldid have physical items all
online, but you're dealing withdatabases and you're dealing
with, even at the elementarylevel, talking to kids about how
to differentiate good and badinformation on the internet, and
(04:35):
it's a wild rodeo out there onthe internet and there's a lot
of education still needed, whichI actually found very
interesting about continuing tobe a librarian in this day and
age.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, because I mean we were always taught as kids
and I'm an old guy, but we werealways taught as kids.
You know, don't believeeverything you read, and that
concept is now on steroids withthe Internet.
But I mean you probably.
I mean I could just imagine howmuch hair you pulled out of
your head, you know, going fromcard catalog and the type of
organization in a library thatyou had to having digital
(05:07):
options that you had.
I mean, figure out the softwareto loan out digital things and
get them back or whatever youhad to do.
I mean there were reallymassive changes in the last 20
years, am I?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
right, massive changes, but so much of that is
automated that it really thatend of it of managing it is not
the headache you might imagine.
There's software out there forall that stuff and whether
you're circulating an electronicbook or a print book, that's
(05:44):
push was just the constanteducation of kids and adults
that libraries and librariansare still relevant in the
Internet age.
You know, that was actuallyprobably the most challenging
thing that I ran into was justpeople like hey, it's on the
Internet, why do we need alibrary anymore?
Sure, people like hey, it's onthe internet, why do we need a
(06:07):
library anymore?
But the truth is that theinternet has only increased the
amount of information we canaccess, and so the need to
differentiate good and badinformation just got more and
more important.
And it's harder, at least withbooks.
To your point, even a book thatdoesn't have great quality, it
(06:28):
still went through a publishingprocess, right, and this is not
the case with the internet.
Websites have no publisher oreditor that runs some sort of
grammar check or research todouble check all their facts,
copy editing and and it's a truepoint, especially with news now
.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I mean, there was a time where it did not go out
until it got across an editor'sdesk, and I always think of Ben
Bradley with the Washington Postduring the Nixon, the whole
Watergate thing.
Nothing went into that paperuntil he was confident that it
was that what he was hearing wasreal.
There was always that buffer,and that buffer doesn't exist
(07:07):
anymore, which makes it even.
And, of course, I've got ayoung son trying to teach him
how to differentiate.
So before we move on becausewe're here, can you give us a
little quick advice about what,how to differentiate between
garbage and real information, orhow to process what we're
seeing?
Because now we're having thingsgo by us and rapid fire on Tic
(07:28):
Tac and Tic Toc, excuse me andInstagram and other things, and
you know everything looks good.
So how do you know what's realand what's bullshit?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
It is a huge, huge challenge.
And look, there are pros andcons to the day and age in which
we live.
Right, the opportunity to hearimmediate news from people on
the ground has played incredibleroles in things like, you know,
(07:57):
freedom movements and rightsand human rights emergencies
that immediate information isgreat.
Emergencies that immediateinformation is great when you
have a minute.
Beyond that emergency, I thinkthe biggest thing to pay
attention to is just whatever isyou're seeing on TikTok, you
(08:17):
need to take with at least onegrain of salt and see if you can
verify it any other way.
I like to say a block of salt.
Yeah, you're not wrong.
And unfortunately, even theverification can be challenging,
because information is pickedup from one source and then
spread so quickly that it's easyto verify, find a second or
(08:41):
third source that say the sameinformation.
Then you need to look atcredibility of the source.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, and I also add to that, if I can, and tell me
if I'm wrong, but if it soundsat all gossipy, if it sounds at
all gossipy, ignore it.
That's my rule of thumb,because the thing about, you
know, social media in the earlydays was a way to democratize
information so people couldspeak, they could speak out,
(09:08):
they could call people out.
But the problem is, callingpeople out became like fun and
so we started demolishing peoplethat really didn't deserve to
be demolished.
So I I I say, if it sounds atall gossipy, ignore it.
Right, that's my I think that's.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, I think that's another good filter to use.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Okay, well it is.
It is a jungle out there now.
It's the wild wild West andtrying to discern what's real
and what isn't.
And even with the major newswork networks, I used to be a
news junkie and I, I almostcan't even watch or read anymore
.
I, I, you know it changes fromday to day.
So what is the truth?
What is the truth?
We just don't know anymore.
So let's all right, we couldtalk about this for three days,
(09:47):
I'm sure.
So let's move on to get uscloser to where we want to be
today.
First, what did you learn inthose 20 years of education that
you've taken with you into yournew life?
I mean, you have a lot of lifeexperience now.
What does that allow you tobring the table as a small
business operator and as aprofessional organizer?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Well, one thing just a reality about being an
elementary school librarian isthat you frequently shifted
school buildings.
So that meant I regularly wasmeeting new people, new groups
of students, new teachers.
I was walking into new spacesand having to assess how well
they matched my vision and goalsfor the population.
(10:28):
So that gave me a lot ofconfidence, certainly gave me a
lot of practice in creatingvisions and then paying
attention to the details andmaking them happen, and I think
that's huge as a business owner.
And then honestly, just withage, I think some confidence
comes with that, some shiftingof goals and some awareness of
(10:51):
what I wanted in my 30s is maybenot what I want in my 50s.
I have different priorities now.
I've definitely become a goodproblem solver.
You have to get creative ineducation to make things work
for your kids.
So all those things are servingme well as I start out on my
new business.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Well, I think you're right.
I think just your comment on theheels of me doing a show on
ageism and pivoting in your 50s.
And I talk about how mostcultures revere older people,
but we have gotten to a pointwhere we're just throwing them
out and that's a lot ofexperience and expertise to just
, you know, discard.
And now that people are livinglonger and healthier lives, we
(11:33):
need to embrace older people andthat wisdom I mean when I and I
say that when we were young wewould laugh at old people, we
would roll our eyes at oldpeople, but we sought them out
because we knew they had answersto things we had no clue about.
And we've kind of lost that inthis world.
And I'm going to be bangingthis topic home a lot in this
podcast because it's personalfor me and I know it's personal
for you and there's a lot ofvalue in taking up 30 years of
(11:57):
experience and applying it tosomething else.
So I'm going to be I'm going tobe a bit of a pain in the butt
with people on this one becauseit's personal.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
It's so true.
I love, though, that rememberwhen someone was 40, we gave
them an over the hill party.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And now 40 is like.
Well, I'm just coming into mymy best time and I think maybe
60 is comparable age, but no onegets an over the hill party
anymore.
So I do appreciate that changein attitude towards aging.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Well, let's hope it continues to change.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
You came to a place where you realized you needed a
change.
You've been teaching for 20years, and so let's let's talk
about this a minute, because Ithink this is the whole point of
pivoting is coming to thatplace and realizing something
does need to change in your life, and you're not sure what.
Um, what?
First of all, give us a generalidea of what was happening that
(12:53):
created the frustration or thediscomfort or whatever it was
that led you to make this changeor want to make a change.
Not, we're not specifically atprofessional organizing yet, but
you're becoming aware thatsomething needs to change.
Talk about that process, thatphase.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Well, look, not only has librarianship changed
drastically in 20 years, so haseducation.
I think a large part of it hasto do with the emphasis on
testing and test scoresconnected with funding and I
understand schools need fundingright but unfortunately that
(13:31):
emphasis on testing, in myopinion, has become a big
obstacle in the way of teachersand administrators trying to
give kids what they need atwhere they are at.
I think the other big change isthat society in general has
begun to expect more and morefrom schools.
(13:54):
Schools are providing safetynets for so many things, from
basics like food and clothing,and there's only so much that
schools and teachers can give.
Now, for the last few years, Iwas working in a district where
I saw so many kids coming intoschool, dealing with food
(14:17):
insecurity, dealing with traumathat wasn't being addressed,
dealing with a lack of parentalsupport, and I worked with a
team of teachers whom I admiredso much.
They were giving 110% everysingle day, working outside of
the school day constantly, andthe challenge was that we all
(14:41):
knew we still weren't givingthese kids everything they
needed.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
You know it's funny, you you?
The first point that youbrought up and I think these are
, that's a really interestingpoint that's a middle school
teacher in a district wherethere were a lot of people from
Columbia.
Most of the kids did not have afull grasp of English and he
(15:13):
was the testing phase.
That second half of the yearwould cause him a lot of anxiety
and sleepless nights because hewanted to be the guy that
helped them where they were andunfortunately they were forced
to be in a place they weren'tnecessarily ready for and it
caused all kinds of stress.
And I agree, I think it's acomplicated thing to how do we
(15:34):
assess schools and give themfunding.
But this is not necessarily, inmy opinion, the approach and
I'm not an educator but this isnot the approach that's going to
really help kids in the longrun.
And it does tie your hands, asa teacher, from wanting to do
the things you can and you knowyou can do to help that those
students grow from where theyare right now.
(15:54):
Right, I'm sure that I'm surethere were a lot of days you got
in your car and drove homeyelling and screaming in the car
, right.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Oh my goodness, yes, oh my goodness.
And I know that I wasn't theonly one.
Um and again, I I've workedwith teachers for 20 years.
They're an amazing giving,generous, creative, problem
solvers, compassionate educatedgroup of people, they are heroes
and, like you said, though,unfortunately often their hands
(16:23):
are tied to meet kids wherethey're at, and that takes a
toll.
It takes a toll a lot of extrademands, extra pressures, just
as far as all that the kidsneeded and therefore challenges
(16:48):
they had focusing in theclassroom, which is an
additional challenge for kids orfor teachers at that point.
So, at the end of the day, Iyou know, teachers are checking
in on each other, and I'mhearing people more and more say
hey, how was your day?
Oh, well, I survived.
And I occasionally was sayingwell, I survived.
And that is the thing that Istarted questioning, and I was
(17:13):
noting my exhaustion drivinghome and my frustration level,
which was not just dissipating,and I started to question myself
.
You know, I want more than justsurviving my days.
I believe in education, Ibelieve in the public education
system, even though it is flawed.
However, as an individual, Ithought it was time for a change
(17:36):
.
I needed more.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Well, and if it's eating you up, you're not going
to serve those kids well either.
So great, okay.
Well, this so it was, I'm surewithout getting into it, as I'm
sure it was gut wrenching to gothrough, it was such a hard
decision.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I um you know at that point, 20 years as an educator.
You're very dedicated to thekids.
You want to be part of the team.
You do love your kids and youwant to support your teeth, your
fellow teachers.
Um, it was a very hard decisionto leave, but at the end of the
day, you know, it's interesting.
I have great examples in myparents, both of whom went back
(18:10):
to college later in life tostart a second career.
My father actually then,further on down his professional
life, was downsized and decidedto open his own business to
finish out his professional life, and so I have that example in
front of me that doing somethingdifferent is possible.
You know, it's not the samethat people work in the same
(18:34):
field with the same employer for30 years.
That doesn't happen that muchanymore.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
It's one.
If you listen to my series, theshows before this.
We're taping this before someof my pivoting shows come out,
but I talk about that.
I talk.
Those days my father was thathe worked for a company for his
whole career.
They took care of him, theytook care of his family.
They took care of my mom'shealth insurance for a solid
decade after my father passed.
Those days are gone, right.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah.
That's not the way of the world.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
No, all right.
Well, this is.
I appreciate your being veryupfront and honest with us about
what had to be a very difficultdecision.
We're going to take a quickbreak and when we're going to
come back, we're going to getright into being a professional
organizer.
How you came to decide to dothat and what it is to start
your own business.
We will be back in just asecond.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
Feeling overwhelmed, Struggling to find balance in
your daily life?
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, MattBrooks offers personalized
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
(19:48):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace, Matt is here to be your
partner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Okay, all right, let's talk about becoming a
professional organizer.
I mean, like I said, I didn'teven know that was a thing.
I'm glad it's a thing because Ithink we all need it, but like
I didn't know it was a thing, sohow did you find this?
I mean, I'm sure you've decidedI'm going to make a pivot.
Now what?
What's my pivot going to be?
So you know, fill us in on theprocess of how you started
(20:34):
thinking through ideas and thenlanded on professional organizer
.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
It was interesting because initially I just sort of
started job hunting in atraditional way, you know,
looking at job ads, reworking myresume, trying to figure out
what other job was beingadvertised that I could do.
But along at the same time Iwas also thinking, gee, I maybe
(21:01):
just want to do somethingcompletely different, and slowly
I began to put together a listof well, if I was going to have
my own business, what would thatlook like?
And I mean, my goodness, it waseverything from being a florist
to, you know, opening abookstore cafe, because, hey, I
am a librarian right, right,opening a bookstore cafe because
(21:22):
, hey, I am a librarian, rightRight.
And I also really thought, OK,if I am going to do something
completely different, what do Iwant?
And I think that's important.
Again, like I said, you know,in midlife your priorities are
different and I realized that Iwanted some autonomy, I wanted
ownership, I wanted flexibilityin my life, I wanted to feel
(21:44):
like I was being creative, thatI was problem solving, and so
that definitely led me to okay,yep, I would like to be my own
business, my own boss on my ownbusiness.
And on my list was actuallyorganizer.
On my list was actuallyorganizer.
You know, I had known enoughpeople who said I don't know
(22:11):
what to do with my garage, Iwish I had someone to help me
sort through this.
What a mess.
Or people who went through thedownsizing process and all the
challenges there.
I knew a couple of people whohad hired someone, but it wasn't
until I started researchingthat I realized oh, professional
organizing is an industry.
There are nationalorganizations, there are
standards, there's no regulationof it.
(22:32):
But it was really eye openingand a wonderful feeling to
discover these groups, discoverpeople who had been working in
this field for 20 years, whowould put together codes of
ethics to say that this isimportant.
What we do, we are going topeople's homes.
They're allowing us to seemesses or things that maybe
(22:56):
they're embarrassed about orthings that are overwhelming
them.
This is a big deal and we takethat very seriously.
We take it with a great deal ofconfidentiality and we're going
to hold each other to thesestandards.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Nice, nice.
It's very similar with thecoaching profession, you know
the same thing not regulated,but holds itself to high
standards, with a code of ethicsand confidentiality in
particular.
And I same thing with myjourney in a lot of ways.
You'll hear me in this show.
I talk about how I came to mydecision and I couldn't figure
out what to do, and then Idecided you know what I'm going
(23:28):
to.
I'm going to stop thinkingabout what I should do because I
was getting nowhere, and startmaking some lists of criteria,
and I started with the what willI absolutely not put up with
anymore.
I started with that list andthen I made other lists.
You know what's interesting tome?
And creativity, a lot of thosethings.
Autonomy, the things you talkedabout, were very interesting to
me too, and you know we onlyget one life, so if we're going
(23:49):
to make a shift, we might aswell go for it, right, we might
as well go for the gold.
So you know it's a huge changefrom the structured days of
teaching, though, to go intorunning your own business.
I have to know this myself.
You know, teaching is sometimeschaotic, or I mean teaching is
kind of structured.
It can be chaotic, of course,but your day is structured.
Running your own business canbe at times chaotic and at times
(24:12):
just dull, tedious, not much todo, the phone's not ringing
Like.
You've got to motivate yourself.
Okay, I'm going to do anothercouple of posts on Instagram
today, or whatever, and it'svery easy to just stay in your
jammies drinking coffee asopposed to.
You know, you don't have topunch a time clock, you don't
have to be anywhere.
How has this transition beenfor you in terms of having to
(24:36):
motivate yourself, not have aboss to answer to?
I mean, talk about that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I mean transition barely scratches the surface,
right?
I mean it is just night and day.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Glacial shift.
Right Glacial shift rightGlacial shift.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
That sounds appropriate.
Yes, I mean.
For a long time we were expertsin our field.
We walked into our day knowingwhat was going to happen,
knowing that even if we got somecurveballs, we had the
education and experience tohandle it Like no big deal.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
It's going to be good .
You're so, you're so hit thenail on the head for me.
Because, you know, in the olddays I'd walk into a room.
Everybody knew what my role, mytitle and my reputation was.
Now I walk into a room, nobodyknows me and I, and it's, it's a
real challenge for me to like,like, suddenly be the nobody,
having to sell themselves again.
You know, right, is it?
The same for you.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It's.
It's humbling in a way.
I mean, again, within ourfields, within our circles,
people knew us and even if theydidn't, we're meeting new people
, we know who we are and we knowall that we bring to the table,
and so there's just an extralevel of confidence there.
So, yeah, humbling, sometimesfrustrating, often overwhelming,
(25:55):
but I will say that I'mlearning so many new things that
I also find it exhilarating.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right, it is too.
It's like, it's like you knowand and I don't know about you,
but you know I'm older than youand I love it when I, when I,
when I learned some new skill,and nail it because I'm like,
see, I still got it Right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean it's almost a new leaseon life.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
So so you're making the transition pretty well.
I mean, you seem very happywith it, right?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Relatively.
I mean, you know, there aredays when I'm giving myself
extra pep talks or putting inthat you know, be confident.
Playlist.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
So we all have tools we use to, you know, keep our
spirits up.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
I'm not sure we all have them, but we all should.
That's one thing we should.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I am actually not kidding.
I have created multipleplaylists that I play when I
need a certain something or justI'm feeling energized.
I want to keep that spiritgoing.
I think that's helpful.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Absolutely smart.
Good for you, but I'll betyou've, like we said, you had to
learn a few new things startinga new business.
All right, so let's start withwhat has surprised you, what
took you by surprise.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I'll be honest, the best surprise has been how
generous people are.
Oh, as I've networked whetherit's been people within my field
or not I have found people tobe very welcoming, very
supportive, and whether theythink it's unusual to be so I'm
(27:30):
50, to be 50 and starting a newbusiness or not no one has ever
made me feel that way.
I'm networking with other smallbusiness owners and I think
there's just a generalunderstanding and appreciation
for anybody who's willing to gothrough it, and that's been a
great community to touch basewith.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
That's awesome.
That's awesome, okay.
So now, what has taken you outof your comfort zone?
And I'll start this myself,because you know, I'm good at
creating systems, I'm good atthe work that I do, but
marketing is not my thing, andso that's taken me out of my
comfort zone and challenges meon a daily basis, especially
marketing over social media.
(28:07):
How about you?
What has taken you out of yourcomfort zone?
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I have to say social media too, and the thing is, I
very specifically chose not tobe on any social media
personally ever, so I didn'thave a Facebook.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
So, hello world, here's Sarah.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yes, yes.
So navigating social media and,as you point out, um, it's
essential to market ourselvesthrough social media as one
Avenue, um navigating, that hasbeen very interesting.
I still have a lot to learnthere.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Well, I don't know.
I'm just curious how you'veapproached it, because my
approach is, every time I getfrustrated, I walk away and I
say I'm going right back intomorrow and I just keep myself
going in there and thank God forYouTube, because there's so
many instructional videos onYouTube and if you're out there
making those videos, god blessyou, we need you.
So, all right, let's get intothis.
(29:08):
There are a lot of tryingmoments when you jump into a new
venture, right, and I mean, andthere are tough times and a lot
of confusion, a lot ofself-doubt.
Did I make the right decision?
Did I fuck this up?
What am I, you know, what am Idoing with my life?
And then you turn and, ifyou're like me, you go yeah, I
made the right decision.
This is odd.
I'm going to do this thingright.
(29:28):
So give us an idea.
For those people that are outthere considering pivoting, for
those people that are out therethinking you know, I'm just
really not happy.
I want to think about maybedoing something else, but the
security of the job is somethingI need.
How do you cope with thosemoments of confusion and
self-doubt and insecurity andworry and all that?
(29:50):
How do you cope.
And I know you said you gotyour playlists, but it also it
can't be just the music you playon your you know it's got to
come from down deep somehow.
What are your, what's yourapproach, your methodology?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Well, number one is surround yourself by positive
people who believe in you.
You know you need to have acore group of people who, when
you're feeling down, you cancall up and say I just need to
vent.
Who are when you're feelingdown or doubting yourself, can
say but this is great, look whatyou've achieved already.
(30:23):
You should be so proud, I'mproud of you.
You know, I think that ingeneral, we don't say that to
each other enough and you needthe positive and I would cut out
people who are naysayers.
You just need to take a breakfrom those people for a while.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Funny.
I'm going to do a show on thatat some point in the future, you
know setting boundaries andcutting people out.
I I'm very anti ghosting.
I think ghosting is one of theworst scourges that on our
planet.
Now I'm disgusted by it, but Idon't have any problem telling
somebody hey look, you know it's.
It's not working.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So all the best I'll.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
let's check up.
Let's check in with each otherat Christmas and say hi, you
know, and just cut those, notfeeling you have to be but.
But I think you're right, yougot to have a community of
people that are yourcheerleaders.
That's not always easy to find,but I'm glad you have one.
Are there any other ways thatyou deal with this within
yourself, when you have doubtand confusion?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
I mean, you're right, not everyone has those people
in their lives.
I am a librarian, so you know Idefinitely seek out
motivational books.
I have a wall of quotationsthat I add to regularly, you
know, just to keep remindingmyself, because it's so easy.
Working as a small businessperson can be very isolating and
(31:38):
so easy to get in your head andjust stay there with your
blinders on so to look at thiswall and be able to pick out,
you know, one quote today that'slike oh right, okay, thanks,
mark Twain.
You know, catch the trade windsin your sails, go out there,
explore, dream.
It's not trite.
(32:00):
I think there have been timesin my life when I found
motivational sayings to be alittle less applicable to my
life.
At least that's what I thought.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
You might've rolled your eyes at a few.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Maybe, maybe.
But here I am and finding a lotof strength and just good
reminders.
We all need reminders to staythe course and keep believing
and keep trying.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
It's such a great thing to say to people and, by
the way, I have also been alittle annoyed over the years at
very fluffy positive thinkingand these sayings and these
quotes.
But what's great about today isyou can find I found a deck of
cards about affirmations for abadass and they, the the all the
affirmations are basicallysaying what the old ones say,
(32:51):
but rewritten and using the Fword a lot.
So I get a laugh out of it.
It really helps me out.
But you know, you mentionedthere's a real excitement to
doing something completelydifferent in midlife and that,
as intimidating as it can be, itcan be really cool.
You know, and I and I agree100% there is something that I
(33:11):
personally feel fired up in waysthat I've not been in a long
time.
Let's close this show with justa brief discussion about
embracing midlife changes,because that scares the shit out
of people, but it shouldn'tnecessarily.
If you hear my show from a weekago or whenever it's going to
air, I give some numbers thatare from the Global
(33:33):
Entrepreneurship Monitor abouthow successful people in their
50s and 60s are at startingtheir own businesses.
In fact, if you start abusiness in your 50s, you're
twice as likely to succeed thansomeone starting in their 30s.
If you start in your 60s, youare three times as likely to
succeed than someone starting intheir 30s.
If you start in your 60s, youare three times as likely to
succeed.
So there's something excitingabout this and, yes, it's
intimidating to make a change inmidlife, but it's also, you
(33:57):
know, when you get to midlife.
Eric Erickson's theory ofdevelopment says that midlife is
about generativity versusstagnation.
You have a choice you areeither going to stagnate or
you're going to be generative.
You're going to be giving,You're going to be involved in
the world in some way, and Ithink pivoting in midlife is
generativity on steroids.
(34:18):
It's fantastic.
Give me your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Well, I'm going to go back to something that we are
using a lot in the educationworld right now, which is
talking about the growth mindset, and the growth mindset is what
we try to teach kids, that, youknow, one mistake is not the
sign to give up.
You know, failure is anopportunity to learn.
And the growth mindset involvescontinuing to be flexible,
(34:45):
continuing to know that justbeing smart, just being talented
, is not enough.
Right, you need to put in hardwork and discipline, and that
will cause your brain literallyto strengthen the muscle, to
keep trying and stay flexibleand shaking things up, like
(35:08):
we're doing in our midlife.
Oh man, it's so great for ourbrains.
You know I mean we're, we arepromoting flexibility for
ourselves, we're being curious,we're staying active.
Look, I can't say that, um,it's not overwhelming sometimes.
Right, it's overwhelming, it'sfrustrating yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
And scary, and scary.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
And scary.
And you need to be prepared forthat and you have to know that
will come.
But one of the things I do tryto remind myself about is how
fortunate I am to be here atthis time making these choices
and charting a new path.
I mean, it's reallyexhilarating.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It's.
You know, we're lucky to be ina position where we can do that
and hopefully, it'll work out.
I want to go back, brieflythough, to what you were talking
about with young people.
I think that's I like to say itis.
That's the difference betweenself-esteem and something I call
false esteem.
False esteem is when you'remade to feel good all the time,
no matter what.
You just feel good.
Everybody makes you feel good.
But there's an emptiness tothat.
(36:12):
Self-esteem comes fromaccomplishment, which comes from
hard work and challengingyourself, being willing to make
mistakes, learn from thosemistakes, grow from those
mistakes.
It's the hard challenges.
I mean.
Climbing Mount Fuji is not easy, but you get to the top.
You feel real good.
I haven't done it, but one of mybest friends did, and there's a
video of him at the top lookingin a way he should look
(36:34):
exhausted and instead he looksexhilarated in a way I've never
seen him in my life.
But it's not easy training formonths and then doing that and
we need to remember that weshouldn't fear real self-esteem
and the journey to get there,that getting a trophy for
everything is not actuallyhelping us.
We need to hear George Carlindid this in one of his last
(36:55):
routines we need to hear thoseall-important words you failed,
do it again.
You know and challenge yourselfto learn right, and that what I
love.
You're absolutely right.
It takes some humility to dothis because, you know, after
being an esteemed professionalfor a long time, you start, you
know, getting egg on your faceevery now and then from
something you did or didn't knowto do or whatever.
(37:15):
But the good news is, at ourage, I think we can handle that
better, would you agree?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
I definitely agree.
And if you can't or you're notsure if you can, you're going to
find out real quick and you'regoing to build that muscle and
you are going to start learninghow to deal with failure and a
little egg on your face and getback up.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
And we're not serving anyone well when we're trying
to make it, when we're trying tocreate scenarios where they
avoid having to experience thosesensations.
And and yes, in my, my stage oflife, of course I want to hear
I'm brilliant all the time, butI don't get that for some reason
(37:59):
, and I think I know why it'sbecause I have to learn just
like everybody else does.
But, like you say, it's a great,it's just a spectacular gift at
this age to be challenged inthis way.
We're not stagnating, right,sarah?
You and I are not stagnating?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
No, we're not.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
All right.
Well, this has been such agreat interview.
Before we leave, any lastthoughts you want to give people
out there who are thinkingabout pivoting in their lives.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
I think the last thing I would say is remember to
give yourself grace.
You know I love that word,which is actually why I put it
in the name of my business.
We put so much pressure onourselves to know the right
answer, to have it all figuredout before we take that jump,
and it just doesn't work thatway.
And so as you, as you take thisleap, remember it takes time to
(38:50):
take it all in, it takes timeto process, it takes time to
figure things out.
And just keep giving yourselfgrace as you work through it,
because you can do it.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
I love that and my listeners will be.
They're nodding right nowbecause I use the term, the
phrase give yourself grace allthe time with my clients and I
talk about it in my in mypodcast regularly.
Giving yourself grace doesn'tmean allowing yourself a pass.
You still have to face what yougot to face.
Just don't beat yourself up somuch for it, am I right?
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
All right.
Well, sarah Hackenberg, thishas been a joy to have you on
the show.
I hope you'll come back in afew months and you and I can
compare notes and see how we'redoing with our midlife changes,
which does take a tremendousamount of courage, so I applaud
you for that.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
I really do Same to you.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Thank you, Thank you.
So thank you for being with ustoday.
Everybody.
I want to thank you so much forlistening.
If you've enjoyed this, pleasehit the follow and subscribe
button so you'll know when Idrop new shows.
I have several more people thatI'm going to interview who've
done pivots and a job recruiterthat I'm going to have on, which
I think is going to be realhelpful.
For now, though, thanks forlistening.
(39:57):
Be well, and I'll catch younext time on the Barrier Busting
Podcast.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com