November 25, 2024 • 38 mins
Unlock the secret to a successful career transition with Jamie Stevenson, a former high school teacher who has mastered the jump from education to talent acquisition. Discover how Jamie utilizes her teaching skills to thrive in the tech recruiting world, collaborating with hiring managers to fine-tune job descriptions and interview processes. We promise you'll gain valuable insights on differentiating essential skills from those that can be developed, helping you navigate the competitive job market with confidence.
Throughout our conversation, Jamie shares her personal journey, highlighting the pivotal role of family support and networking in her career shift. With a background in teaching mathematics and history, she emphasizes how educators bring unique strengths to other professions. Learn how she leveraged her connections and recognized her own strengths to align with her personal goals and aspirations, offering listeners a road map for their own career transformations.
As the job landscape evolves, Jamie provides essential tips on presenting yourself effectively in applications and interviews. From crafting impactful resumes to the significance of social media presence, she covers the nuances of modern job searching. We also tackle the challenges faced by Generation Z in the workplace, examining how they balance professionalism with the pursuit of passion-driven careers. Tune in for practical advice and insights that empower you to overcome obstacles and unlock your full potential in today's ever-changing job market.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:35):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast general throughout your
(01:01):
career, pivoting over 50, whichis really complicated.
We've talked to several peopleabout how they pivoted and were
successful, but a lot of whatwe've been talking about has
been theory.
Today, we're going to get downto where the rubber meets the
road.
We are going to find out todayhow to land a gig, how to get
the job, because today I have ajob recruiter, or shall we say,
(01:21):
talent acquisition specialist,on the show, and I'm really
excited about this guest.
My guest today is JamieStevenson.
After spending 13 years as ahigh school social studies
teacher, jamie pivoted into workas a job recruiter or, as I
said, talent acquisition partner, who has spent the past six
years recruiting across diverseindustries.
(01:42):
Jamie began her career, or herrecruiting career, at a small
agency in New Jerseyspecializing in technical roles
and has since worked directlywith tech startups in health
tech, fintech and cybersecurity,where her role is to attract
and retain top talent.
Jamie holds a bachelor's degreein science and secondary
education from the University ofVermont.
(02:04):
Jamie, I am so grateful you'rewilling to sit with me on this
show, and she's actually goingto do two episodes, folks.
So we've got her for two weeksto hear what we need to know if
we're trying to get a gig and ajob in this current climate.
Jamie, a great pleasure to haveyou here.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, I'm so excited to behere well, I'm excited to have
(02:24):
you because, uh, I I'm hopingyou'll give us the answers.
We need to find gigs, you knowyou'll you'll at least give us
what we need to look out for andbe ready for give me some tips,
yeah, for sure, let's startwith you're a recruiter, or as
we say now.
we've changed every title in theworld to sound fancy, which is,
which is cool.
You're a talent acquisitionspecialist, and that's cool.
(02:48):
I like that better thanrecruiter.
But what the hell does thatmean?
Tell us what you do, explainthe job to us, and especially
the parts that are both in yourjob description and sort of
above and beyond.
We all have job descriptions,but there's parts of our jobs
that go above and beyond that.
So give us the rundown of whatJamie Stevenson does.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Absolutely so, you know, and I think the title
talent acquisition partner is abetter title than recruiter
because, you know, typicallypeople think of a recruiter as
somebody that just finds theright candidate for a company
right, or as a head hunter.
But you know, my roleencompasses a lot more than that
, especially because most of myrecruiting career, or talent
(03:34):
acquisition career, ta careerhas been in tech startups.
So you know leaner environmentswhere you're doing more than
just that traditional recruiting.
Um, you know I, I work withinan HR department.
Um, and you know I not only doyou know I do that, that
(03:54):
traditional head hunting, whereyou know I'm looking for the
right talent to bring into ourorganization.
Um, you know, for the rolesthat are open, but I'm also
partnering with many otherpeople within the business,
within the company.
You know, when there is an openrole, I meet with the hiring
(04:15):
manager and the interview teamand I help them build their
interview process.
I, you know, coach them on.
You know what, what are some ofthese things that are must have
skills and what are some thingswe can concede on, because I'm
sure, as you know, a lot ofhiring managers, when they write
up a job description, whichalso coach them and tailor those
job descriptions as well.
(04:36):
But it's like a Christmas list,right.
They're putting every detail inthere.
I want somebody that can doeverything.
A lot of times it's, you know,what we call a unicorn, right?
So I really helped tounderstand what are the
must-have skills that somebodyyou know they have to have.
There's no doubt about it.
What do I have to see on theresume?
(04:57):
What does this person have tohave experience with, and what
are the nice-to-haves and whatare the skills that we can coach
?
You know what are coachableskills that they may not have a
ton of experience in, but ifthey have the foundation of
those other skills, we can buildthat with them.
So I really, yeah, so when I doget a requisition for an open
(05:19):
role, I sit down with thebusiness and really understand
all of these details and thenit's up to me to market that.
So I, you know, take that jobdescription.
I post it out on our website onjob boards.
You know, indeed, linkedin, ata, builtin, wellfound.
(05:42):
There's a lot of different jobboards that are sort of
integrated through our applicanttracking system, but LinkedIn
and Indeed are some of the bigones that I think everybody's
probably familiar with.
So I publish those and then,you know, not only do I field
the applicants, so people youknow see those jobs, the
candidates, and they apply tothem.
So I'm, you know, siftingthrough that and moving folks
(06:05):
forward that I see are a fit orhave the basics of what we need,
and then I screen them anddecide whether or not they do
possess these skills and goodcommunity, you know, the soft
skills and the hard skills andthen potentially move them
forward and with that I'm alsogoing out and prospecting.
I'm looking for, you know,talent that might be a little
(06:26):
bit more passive, or even that'sactive and open to work.
On LinkedIn, on Indeed, I focusmainly on technical recruiting,
so sometimes I'll look at sometechnical sites like Dice or
GitHub, but typically my go-tofor prospecting is LinkedIn.
(06:47):
I mean, it's the biggestnetwork out there and the most
robust.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You had mentioned to me that you also work with the
applicants.
You kind of guide them throughthe whole process.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
You're not just working for the company, you're
working for the applicants aswell, right.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, that's a big part of the role is I'm not only
an advocate for our businessside, but I'm an advocate for
the candidates that I usherthrough the process.
And you know, in recruitingbest practices, you know,
especially nowadays.
I did build out like a wholerecruiting and interview process
for our company and launch that.
But the big key here is thecandidate experience, because
(07:30):
you know, in speaking tocandidates, even if they're not
a fit, they could be a user ofyour technology or, you know, a
client of your company, so youalways want to give them a good
experience.
You know and be my big thing isbeing transparent.
I'm always transparent aboutyou know, maybe, why we decided
not to move forward, or whetheror not you know they have the
basics of what we're looking for, and transparent about what the
hiring manager will screen themand I do coach them through.
(07:53):
You know the process of what toexpect, how to prepare and give
them lots of details like thatas well.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So, to be clear, though you're not necessarily
always looking for someone whohas every box checked in the job
description, you're trying torecognize potential right,
absolutely.
It is because I think a lot ofpeople don't apply for jobs
because they read thosedescriptions and they have some
of it, but they don't have allof it, but they know they could
do the job.
(08:19):
You're saying you'reencouraging them to apply.
You're saying just throw yourhat in the ring, because it's
possible that we're looking notfor the perfect fit on paper,
but the perfect fit of a humanbeing that has a certain range
of skills that we can coach andgrow right.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, yep, absolutely .
Speaker 1 (08:37):
All right.
Well, let's let's step back inyour life a little bit.
First, let's get away from your.
You weren't always a talentacquisition partner.
First you were a teacher apublic school teacher and high
school teacher, by the way,social studies and then you
pivoted in your life and becausethis has been a series on
(08:57):
pivoting, I want to spend alittle bit of time on what your
process was.
How did you first and you don'thave to tell me every personal
detail but how did you firstdecide that you know teaching
wasn't quite right, you neededto make a change?
And then tell us about yourcareer as a teacher first, and
then tell us about what kind ofwent through your mind in terms
(09:19):
of I need to make a change.
And then I have a few follow-upquestions about how you made
the change.
But first tell us about yourlife as a teacher.
Tell us the good, the bad, theugly and why you decided to
leave it.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Absolutely.
So I went to collegespecifically to study education.
I actually first was going tomajor in mathematics because
that was always my favorite andI was very successful throughout
my high school career in mathand science.
So I kind of toyed around withthat.
And then, when I got to college, the math just got way over my
(09:51):
head so and I had a historyclass that I was loving and I
was like, oh, this, this is cool.
And my professor really hookedme and I made that change,
pivoted there into becoming ahistory.
You know, concentration.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Hear that, teachers.
I was just talking to a formercollege teacher of mine
yesterday who had a profoundimpact on me in ways she was not
aware.
You don't know the impact youhave on your students out there.
Teachers, Keep doing what youdo.
Keep believing in what you'redoing, Even if you're not
getting the kind of feedback youfeel you should.
There's always going to besomebody out there.
You're going to reach right,Just like this, Absolutely so.
(10:28):
So I got to give a little propto the teachers out there.
I think teachers are getting theshit kicked out of them these
days.
So little props to them.
But anyways, go back to how youmade sure.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean kind of exactly what you're
saying.
Like teachers, the job ofteaching is not easy.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Everybody thinks like , oh, you know, you get, you get
out of school early and youknow you can go home and take
care of your family like aperfect job for a mother Right
or a family person, unlessyou're my wife who's a teacher
who goes and leaves the house at730 in the morning, is never
home before 530 at night everand then often has things in the
morning, is never home beforefive 30 at night ever, and then
often has things in the eveningto do.
So you know, the two months shegets off is compensation for
(11:10):
the hours, the extra hours sheworks throughout the year.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
That's how I look at it, right, so I'm sorry, I'm all
pro teacher.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I think, like I say, they're getting the crap kicked
out of them and it's just notright so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Agreed.
No, I definitely agree there,and I think that was a big
reason why I was like teachingis not what I thought it was
going to be.
But yeah, I did go to college,you know, with the idea that I
was going to be a teacher.
I always thought I wanted.
You know that was going to bemy, my career growing up.
And you know, when you declarea major in college, half the
time you have no idea the insand outs of it right like you're
(11:43):
just kind of like especially at18, especially at 18 or 19 you
want to do?
yeah, figure out what yourcareer is going to be at 18
years old, where you know, likeI don't even know.
You know what, what my plansare for the next day?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I don't know how to balance my checkbook at 18 years
old, right exactly, yeah,exactly so, um, you know, went
along with that.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I, you know, you know I graduated with that degree.
I I got a job at my former highschool.
So a little correction Iactually was a parochial school
teacher, not public, I know youmentioned public, so I was
parochial school.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
So I taught at my old .
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, my alma mater, immaculate Heart Academy.
It was an all girls privateschool, catholic school
nonetheless and so I ended upgoing back there.
And you know, after going up toVermont for college, I always
said I'm never coming back toJersey.
And not only did I come back toJersey, I went back to my high
school, which was wild, but youknow it was a great opportunity.
(12:38):
I got a chance to teach.
I first year off, was offered acoaching position, coaching
volleyball, which was my sportin high school as well.
Um, you know, and came back anddid my thing and I taught for,
uh, 13, 12, 13 years.
Um, and you know, there wereyears that were amazing, where I
was like this is it, I love it.
And years where I was like, oh,my God, I got to figure
(13:00):
something else out.
Um, and I think in any career,you've got, you know, days or
stints of time where you kind ofhave those thoughts At least I
think a lot of people do unlessyou've got the dream job.
But you know, I got to a pointwhere, like school, I could come
home and be with my kids.
I was coaching.
I was having to work multiplejobs on the weekends and in the
summer to supplement that income.
(13:31):
Um, it just was too much.
So I went ahead and, you know,started to see what else I could
, I could get into.
And it was always that bigquestion like what, what can I
do?
And my husband at the time wasin recruiting and he was, like
you know, I think you would bereally good at this.
You're a good people person,you're really resourceful, like
(13:51):
you're.
You're really good with um,searching for things online and
finding information which canapply to the recruiting field.
So I went ahead and started whenI was on maternity leave.
Actually, I, you know, startedto network a bit.
You know, I I reached out to,or I actually started
interviewing.
I did get a job opportunity towork for a big recruitment firm,
(14:13):
robert half, which my at thetime husband was working at, and
I was like it's a little tooclose to home.
So I passed up that role, youknow, started to talk to some
other folks in smaller companies, cause I felt that was where
I'd get more attention and moreof um.
You know, the the keyfoundation of what I would need
more, you know, in a smallerenvironment.
Um, and I actually ran into ahigh school friend of mine who
(14:36):
was working for an agency rightup the street from my house and
we started chatting and she waslike you know, we're actually
looking to hire somebody.
And, um, she's like you knowwe're actually looking to hire
somebody and she's like you know, let me know if you're
interested, like send me yourresume.
So she got me an intro to thissmall, a little boutique firm
Like literally I could see itfrom my front door, the building
and I went in for an interviewand multiple interviews.
(14:58):
Actually it was a pretty longprocess and they they ended up
hiring me and I took the role.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Did you have to before you did that?
Did you have to do any trainingto make yourself marketable in
that role, or were you able tojust kind of slide out from
teaching right into doing this?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So I kind of slid out because they were looking for
somebody entry level and, luckyenough, they saw that I had the
you know, the hunger and theinterest and also some of those
applicable people skills thatthey could coach me.
And that was what my manager atthe time saw in me was that you
know that drive.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And I got to stop you right there for the people
listening More than the skillthis is what I've always been
told, and I used to hire a lotof people and I used to think
this way more than the necessaryskills, you need the hunger.
If you have that hunger, if youshow that passion, you don't
need all the necessary skillsperfectly in place.
Am I right?
It's really the passion You'relooking for, people who are
(15:53):
going to give themselves to theposition, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yep, yeah, definitely , and you know it did help that
my friend who referred me wasable to speak for me and kind of
, you know, vouch that.
You know I was in it for theright reasons and you know
needed like I could go to herfor questions and I would be
(16:21):
comfortable doing that.
So the networking part ofthings I think definitely helps
as well when you're looking tomake a pivot.
I always say use your network.
Even if it's not somebody,that's like a firsthand
connection.
You know it could be a friendof a friend.
You know that's always superhelpful, whether it's to get a,
you know an in and a company orjust to pick somebody's brain on
(16:42):
what to do and how to get thereacquisition partner when you
were working with applicants.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Is there stuff you experienced or did this?
Just you know?
Overnight you walk into a newjob and you just learn it and
away you go.
I mean, was there any part ofthis process that informs you
(17:09):
now?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Um, I mean kind of.
I think what you said before islike having that hunger and
that drive and that motivationand also being self-aware that
you know I have this 10 year or10 plus year career, um, and I'm
pretty, you know, educated and,uh, you know, confident in that
(17:32):
career.
But you know I might have tostart over.
Um, you know what I mean.
I might have to start from thatbottom and I may.
You and I definitely wascompensated pretty equally
because I wasn't making much asa parochial school teacher.
But I think that's somethingfor folks to keep in mind is to
be, in order to make a pivot,you might have to take a step or
(17:53):
two or more back when it comesto the compensation part of
things and also just seniority,the compensation part of things
and also just seniority.
It's not just going to be thislateral move from one you know
one title to another or you knowyou might have to.
I hate to say it like and Idon't like to say prove yourself
, but you're going to have toyou got to earn your stripes.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Exactly, there's just no getting around it.
You got to earn your stripesand you do.
You know it's just what it isand know in my pivot in my 50s.
I went back to college and Ihad to do internships and of
course I was, you know, like 20years older than anybody I was
interning for and that createdsome awkward moments and frankly
, I'm not going to lie a fewobnoxious moments, but I, you
(18:34):
know, I just knew it going in.
You got to suck this up and doit and I kept my.
I kept a positive attitude andsaid don't worry about my age or
whatever.
I'm just here to do whateveryou want me to do.
There might have been a few carrides home from the gig at a
time where I might have been inmy car going God damn it.
You know what I mean, but youhave to just accept that that's
(18:56):
reality.
You do have to prove yourselfand you got to earn your stripes
, but this is a great place forus to take a quick break,
because we're we're nowtransitioning into the
information I know people want,which is how to get the job, and
we're going to talk about thatin just a minute.
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Speaker 1 (20:00):
Okay, we're back with Jamie Stevenson.
We're going to now talk aboutshifting into an ever-changing
job market, because what I'venoticed in the last few years is
it seems like the job market ischanging almost as rapidly as
technology.
Every time I buy a new iPhone,six months later it's like
they've come out with the nextgeneration of brilliant
(20:21):
technology, and that's happeningacross the board, and it's kind
of like the job market issimilar.
Now, right, it's changing allthe time, right?
First of all, how do you dealwith that?
What's your advice to people todeal with that without pulling
their hair out of their heads?
And you know how can peoplebest prepare for these changes?
Or?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
actually even more simpler than that.
How can we know what thosechanges are?
So, just watching the news,obviously, you see what some of
these breakthroughs are in,especially technology right, and
that will sort of dictate whatthese new roles might focus on.
But you know, just keeping upto date, like I said, linkedin
(21:07):
is always my source and there'slots of content there that
they're updating on.
You know what are the hot newjobs, what are some of the?
You know the job, you knowwhere's the job market
transitioning to and what aresome companies hiring for and
even looking at, like the USBureau of Labor and Statistics,
they have projections as well.
(21:28):
So yeah, and I mean not evenjust in the tech sector, I mean
there's some obvious ones where,like, the job market is really
hot but may not have like thatlucrative earnings of, like
health care right and nursing,teaching, right.
There's some of those basicsthat aren't tech focused that
you know there is a high demandfor and there, you know, is
increasing demand for.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
So you're saying that LinkedIn's really a great
source, though, to be able tokeep up with these changes,
right?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And also what I've noticed on LinkedIn is there's a
lot of articles of advice onLinkedIn, right.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah, there are, especiallyfrom yeah, like a recruiting
perspective, anything jobrelated, I mean it is.
There's a lot of content thereand that's why, you know, that's
kind of my go-to for what I do,because not only does it
provide me actual you knowprospects of candidates and
whatnot, but also a lot of thatcontent that's needed to keep up
(22:24):
with you know best practices aswell when it comes to hiring
and then the job market ingeneral, to those trends.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay, let's talk about, then, how candidates
present themselves All rightwith their resumes and other
written materials, because thischanges often.
When I started my career manyyears ago, it was resumes should
be no more than one page.
If it's more than one page,they're going to throw it in the
garbage.
Now, resumes seem to be likeshort stories.
(22:53):
They seem to be like multiplepages and have a lot of columns
in them and talk about howpeople present themselves
through their resumes and otherwritten materials.
How important, by the way, istheir style of email comp?
You know when they are emailingback and forth with you.
Are you?
You're?
You know you're judging them onthe basis of how they're
(23:15):
writing too, am I right?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
And communication.
Just, you know, you say, likethe multiple page, you know,
resume is acceptable these daysand it is um, it certainly is.
Like I no longer, you know, andI think even when I started
recruiting I was open to longerthan a page resume, but to a
point, um, if somebody is, youknow, rambling on like I'll get
(23:41):
applicants that have five pagelong resumes, and it's just like
, literally they're, they'rewriting down every single detail
of everything.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
With a lot of hyperbole right.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You can read rights.
You can see right through thatafter a while.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Oh, I'm like okay, if this person can't succinctly
tell me like the key things thatthey do in their daily data,
you know in their day to day oftheir role, then like they're
not going to be a succinctcommunicator and that's not
going to work in, you know, inour company.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I'm going to pause you right there because I want
to make sure we really hammerthat point.
You and I were talking in ourpre-interview that the key in
communication now is and italways was, but it's really
important now is to be succinct.
And if you can't be succinct,get a point across.
It's kind of like an elevatorpitch.
Right, an elevator pitch needsto be only two to three
sentences, and some people makethem seven, eight sentences.
(24:32):
There's a reason it needs to betwo to three sentences.
It's can you get your message?
I mean, if you could do anelevator pitch in one sentence
that clearly gets your messageacross, you're really hitting
you know, hitting high.
So I just want to pause rightthere because I think people
need to understand that succinct.
You know it's not a podcastwhere you're just going to
(24:53):
ramble.
You've got to present yourselfin a succinct and clearly.
You know a nice shiny package,am I right?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Because you know a nice, shinypackage, Am I right?
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Because you know you only havea limited amount of time in
meetings, or you know you wantto be able to be effective and
impactful, because if you'rerambling on, people are going to
zone out and there's no impactthere.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, I sound like the teacher from peanuts
right.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
What's your?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
potential job applicants know about employers
searching their social mediaaccounts, because you know
you're saying LinkedIn, but I'msure there's other social media
platforms that people should beusing.
Do employers do deep searchesand social media accounts?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
So that's an interesting question because I
remember like historically, evenwhen social media came out,
when I was like in college,there was always like, watch out
what you post, yeah.
But I think you know Itypically do not look at social
media unless there's a reason to.
You know, I'll typically lookat just the LinkedIn profile to
(25:59):
make sure that they'representing themselves in that
way and matches up with theirresume, because a lot of times
people will embellish or they'reyou know, especially if folks
are like we had an issue withpeople passing background checks
because we're in a fully remoteenvironment Um, it's crazy to
scams that go on.
But that's probably could be awhole other podcast or maybe two
episodes, yeah definitely.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I want that.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's crazy.
But um, yeah, as far aschecking social media, I
personally don't do it as much,like I said, unless there's like
a red flag that's raised, likeI remember having a candidate
who was kind of like he was afinalist for a role that we were
recruiting for, but he had somelike erratic behavior, like he
(26:41):
had all the skills we werelooking for, but there were a
couple red flags.
So we did kind of deep in anddid like a search and didn't
necessarily just look at thesocial media, kind of like, did
a google search and saw whatcame up and tried to verify, you
know.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
But um, so you didn't do that.
I want to pause you.
You didn't do that until thered flags appeared yes I want
that.
I want that to get across,because I think we're all
paranoid that anything we eversaid or did in our lives is
going to be used against us inany endeavor we want.
But you really weren't lookingfor that stuff.
It was the person's behaviorthat triggered you to go looking
(27:16):
right.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, yeah, I don't have time as a recruiter, like
you know, I don't have time todo that.
I don't have time to look atevery candidate's social media.
You know what I mean.
Like you're lucky if I havetime to get through the entire
applicant pool.
So it's not something that's ago-to of mine, only if there is
like a red flag.
I have had hiring managers only.
I think there was one occasionwhere a hiring manager noticed
(27:39):
somebody's Twitter post and waslike what's this all about?
I'm not sure I feel comfortableSome underground, I don't even
remember what it was, but therewas an alarm raised there on
that.
But that was only one instance.
Sometimes the hiring managerswhen they're, you know,
preparing to interview acandidate, we'll dig a little
(27:59):
bit deeper and point that out.
But for the most part, as fromthe recruiter's perspective, I
do not go beyond LinkedIn?
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Excellent, well, that's great to know, because I
heard that guy.
What's the guy in Shark Tank,the bald guy?
What's the guy in Shark Tank,the bald guy.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
I forget his name.
Oh, Mr Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, that dude he was talking about something
about how he does these deepsearches now, where it's like
$4,500 and they go intoeverything and they can, you
know, like protesters can now berecognized through some kind of
eye recognition and it'll comeup on the deep searches and, and
I'm like you know, he'sfreaking everybody in the world
(28:37):
out.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I'm not seeing you guys with the kind of time or
money to be doing that, whatever, I was just going to say that
most companies are not going tohave the money to invest in
those deep searches now havingsaid this, people, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I'm not giving you all permission she's not giving
you all permission to go allbatshit on your social media
accounts, because you can stillshoot yourself in the foot and I
personally have a theory thatanything that happens before the
age of 25 doesn't really count.
Okay, so if you post somethingwhen you're 18, okay, we can
overlook that.
What are you not?
What are you like now?
(29:09):
But if you're over 25 andyou're posting, you know, crazy
stuff, you might want to becareful about that.
Even though Jamie says shedoesn't look for that, it could
pop up.
All right, let's move forwardwith.
We talked a second ago, beforethe break, about passion and
hunger being really important.
What are the things thatemployers are looking for?
(29:30):
Above all?
What is it that they're reallylooking for?
I mean, is it that crisp resume?
Is it that you have every skillthey need?
You already said that's not thecase, so what are they looking
for?
What do we need to know?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, I think it varies from hiring manager to
hiring manager, to be perfectlyhonest with you, and from
company to company.
It really depends on the sizeof the company, the stage of the
company and what their productis as well.
And again, I work mostly intech environments and I'm hiring
(30:15):
technical candidates, so,especially those that are senior
candidates, like seniorprincipal level, they have to
have that hard, tangibleexperience of being able to code
or whatever that case may beframeworks, languages.
But one thing I could speak toas far as my most recent company
was a fintech and our softwarearchitect and director or SVP of
(30:40):
engineering.
We're really looking for folks,as we've been saying, that were
curious, passionate, hungry,from the sense that you know.
They started off the interviewprocess after I would speak to
the candidate and just verifythe basics.
The next step in the processwas a preliminary technical
interview where the hiringmanager and another technical
(31:03):
person were conducting theinterview with the candidate.
Interview was conversation andthe second half was an actual
coding exercise.
But you know, I would alwayscoach the candidate and say,
listen, they're not, they don'tcare if you get to a solution on
this coding problem.
It's more about how youcommunicate.
How do you talk through whatyou're doing, why you're doing
(31:26):
it and also like, how do youapproach a problem right?
Do you just jump in or are yougoing to stop and be thoughtful
and ask questions to clarifywhat the interviewer is looking?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
for before you jump into it.
Questions are good, right.
Questions show you're curious.
Questions show that you don'tthink you know it all right,
that's so important.
So that's great.
Listen, we're running long.
I got one really importantquestion to ask you now.
Great Listen, we're runninglong.
But I got one really importantquestion to ask you now.
Our next show.
We're going to talk aboutspecific pivoting techniques and
(31:58):
what people need to know whenthey're pivoting, and we're
going to talk a little bit aboutpivoting over 50, because
that's something I did a fullshow on.
But we're going to go to theother end of the spectrum in Gen
Z.
Now we're going to talk justbriefly about Gen Z, because
there has been a rash ofarticles lately in the news
about Gen Z getting fired allover the place.
Like six out of 10 Gen Z peoplewho've been hired in the last
year or two were fired within afew months of getting the jobs.
(32:21):
What I've read is it's a lot todo with the fact that they're
showing up late, they'redressing in pajamas, basically
they're not actingprofessionally.
They're actually telling theirbosses things like no, I'm not
doing that, I'm not doing that,and and sometimes their moms or
dads call their boss to complainabout.
You know, um, things that arejust so crazy to me coming up
(32:43):
when I came up.
But what?
What do we need to tell Gen Zto so that they can become
successful in the workforce andand?
um you know.
I mean, are you?
I know you're not going toadmit this, that you might be
hesitant or not with Gen Z, butbut what do they need to do, to
you know, keep, maintain theirjobs.
(33:03):
And what do they need to dowhen they present themselves in
an interview?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah, no, I definitely hear your concerns
and it's funny because you knowI remember this coming up and
all the challenges with themillennials Right.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Well, first of all, it's not my concerns.
I've been reading about thisall over the news lately, but it
was the same.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, it was the same .
When the millennial generationcame into the workplace, there
was all these challenges.
So it's kind of like that youknow that ever, that that, that
concern that's always there.
You know, with the youngergeneration it wasn't my
generation.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
We got the gig and they're like you either do it
our way or you're gone.
You know, there wasn't any.
There wasn't any.
We're going to accommodate youbecause you feel like wearing
pajamas to work today.
No, no, no, no.
That didn't happen in mygeneration, so it is foreign to
me what's going on.
So what do you think?
How are we going to get throughthis?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, no, I think that we're going to get through
it.
I mean we always do.
And I think Gen Z eventually, Imean they're the first
generation that it was.
You know, when they were born,apple phones were out.
You know the social media isjust a part of their norm and
it's totally affecting their wayof being social outside and
(34:15):
inside of the workplace.
And top that with the pandemicright, all of these challenges
that they've had to face andthey really, when they first
graduated college, they werehaving to work remotely from
home.
So they were kind of set upwith a shitty start there, up
(34:35):
with a shitty, you know, startthere.
But, um, you know, I, I, ifyou're asking what my advice
would be you know you do have tobe polished.
You know the workplace is theworkplace.
There are certain basicexpectations that companies are
going to hold and you knowcompanies are evolving, their
cultures are changing.
Um, you know, as far as likemental health, I know that's a
big thing with the Gen Zers, andyou know, as far as like mental
health, I know that's a bigthing with the Gen Zers, and you
know anxiety and this and that.
(34:56):
So you know it's a two-waystreet where we do have to make
some changes and, I think,accommodate.
But at the same time they gotto put on their big kid pants
and show up.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Right, you know, yeah , exactly.
My father used to have a sayingand he was a World War II vet,
so you know, put it inperspective.
But his saying was you don'thave rights, you have
responsibilities.
And what he meant by that waswith rights come
responsibilities.
You can't just you know.
I'll give you an example, afunny one, with my son, who's
young.
He said to me about a year agohe said you know, dad, my friend
(35:30):
gets an allowance for doing hischores.
And I said well, isn't yourfriend lucky?
And he looked at me shocked.
And I said he said shouldn't Iget something?
I said you do.
There's that roof over yourhead and that refrigerator and
that PS5.
No, he looked shocked and Isaid look, we all have to make
an effort to contribute.
We don't get compensated foreverything.
Whenever you need money, Ifloat you what you need, but
(35:53):
you're not going to just getpaid for breathing, for being on
this planet.
And I said but when the daycomes that the world decides to
pay me a salary for just beinghere, I'll cut you in on 10%.
You know, I said I mean we dohave to live up to standards and
if people are paying us forwork, they get to decide what
that work is.
(36:13):
They get to decide what theculture of that environment is,
and if you don't like theculture of it, you know there's
the door right.
I mean, I think there's anawful lot and I understand Gen Z
has really interestingchallenges, really tough
challenges that my generationdidn't have.
Things like you said socialmedia.
You know 24-7 bullying onsocial media, covid.
(36:36):
There are a lot of challengesbut at the end of the day, when
the rubber meets the road, beinga professional is being a
professional right.
It's taking a shower before yougo to work and looking, you
know, clean and going to workand bringing your best attitude
to it.
And if you don't do that, youknow throughout history what
happens to people who don't dotheir jobs they get fired.
(36:57):
It's the way it is.
So I'm not going to take anymore time on this, but I do
appreciate you kind of standingup for them, because I think
they're getting battered rightnow in the press.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, it's a totally different world.
I mean, our kids are watchingthese YouTube YouTubers making
hundreds of thousands of dollarsjust sitting in their basements
.
You know doing the things thatour kids and they're like, oh, I
want to do that.
And it's like, oh, my gosh.
Like you know, I think, genZers, they have this whole
different world that they'reliving in and you know they want
(37:25):
to do things that they'repassionate about and you know
that align with their interests.
But yeah, it's definitely, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, and I like to tell my son, I like to say look,
this idea of influencer isreally fascinating to me because
I want to be influenced bypeople who actually have life
experience.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
frankly, you know, but that's for another show.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
All right, we got to run.
We've run quite a bit long onthis one, but the good news is
Jamie's going to be back foranother show and we're going to
get.
We're going to talk morespecifically about what we need
to know when we're making lifepivots.
So, jamie, thank you for beinghere.
It's great to have you.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
And we will be back with her again.
If you've liked this show,please hit the follow or
subscribe button so we can youcan get notified anytime we drop
a new show Back with Jamie nextweek, so please join us for
that.
For now, thank you forlistening.
No-transcript.
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:35):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast general throughout your
(01:01):
career, pivoting over 50, whichis really complicated.
We've talked to several peopleabout how they pivoted and were
successful, but a lot of whatwe've been talking about has
been theory.
Today, we're going to get downto where the rubber meets the
road.
We are going to find out todayhow to land a gig, how to get
the job, because today I have ajob recruiter, or shall we say,
(01:21):
talent acquisition specialist,on the show, and I'm really
excited about this guest.
My guest today is JamieStevenson.
After spending 13 years as ahigh school social studies
teacher, jamie pivoted into workas a job recruiter or, as I
said, talent acquisition partner, who has spent the past six
years recruiting across diverseindustries.
(01:42):
Jamie began her career, or herrecruiting career, at a small
agency in New Jerseyspecializing in technical roles
and has since worked directlywith tech startups in health
tech, fintech and cybersecurity,where her role is to attract
and retain top talent.
Jamie holds a bachelor's degreein science and secondary
education from the University ofVermont.
(02:04):
Jamie, I am so grateful you'rewilling to sit with me on this
show, and she's actually goingto do two episodes, folks.
So we've got her for two weeksto hear what we need to know if
we're trying to get a gig and ajob in this current climate.
Jamie, a great pleasure to haveyou here.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, I'm so excited to behere well, I'm excited to have
(02:24):
you because, uh, I I'm hopingyou'll give us the answers.
We need to find gigs, you knowyou'll you'll at least give us
what we need to look out for andbe ready for give me some tips,
yeah, for sure, let's startwith you're a recruiter, or as
we say now.
we've changed every title in theworld to sound fancy, which is,
which is cool.
You're a talent acquisitionspecialist, and that's cool.
(02:48):
I like that better thanrecruiter.
But what the hell does thatmean?
Tell us what you do, explainthe job to us, and especially
the parts that are both in yourjob description and sort of
above and beyond.
We all have job descriptions,but there's parts of our jobs
that go above and beyond that.
So give us the rundown of whatJamie Stevenson does.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Absolutely so, you know, and I think the title
talent acquisition partner is abetter title than recruiter
because, you know, typicallypeople think of a recruiter as
somebody that just finds theright candidate for a company
right, or as a head hunter.
But you know, my roleencompasses a lot more than that
, especially because most of myrecruiting career, or talent
(03:34):
acquisition career, ta careerhas been in tech startups.
So you know leaner environmentswhere you're doing more than
just that traditional recruiting.
Um, you know I, I work withinan HR department.
Um, and you know I not only doyou know I do that, that
(03:54):
traditional head hunting, whereyou know I'm looking for the
right talent to bring into ourorganization.
Um, you know, for the rolesthat are open, but I'm also
partnering with many otherpeople within the business,
within the company.
You know, when there is an openrole, I meet with the hiring
(04:15):
manager and the interview teamand I help them build their
interview process.
I, you know, coach them on.
You know what, what are some ofthese things that are must have
skills and what are some thingswe can concede on, because I'm
sure, as you know, a lot ofhiring managers, when they write
up a job description, whichalso coach them and tailor those
job descriptions as well.
(04:36):
But it's like a Christmas list,right.
They're putting every detail inthere.
I want somebody that can doeverything.
A lot of times it's, you know,what we call a unicorn, right?
So I really helped tounderstand what are the
must-have skills that somebodyyou know they have to have.
There's no doubt about it.
What do I have to see on theresume?
(04:57):
What does this person have tohave experience with, and what
are the nice-to-haves and whatare the skills that we can coach
?
You know what are coachableskills that they may not have a
ton of experience in, but ifthey have the foundation of
those other skills, we can buildthat with them.
So I really, yeah, so when I doget a requisition for an open
(05:19):
role, I sit down with thebusiness and really understand
all of these details and thenit's up to me to market that.
So I, you know, take that jobdescription.
I post it out on our website onjob boards.
You know, indeed, linkedin, ata, builtin, wellfound.
(05:42):
There's a lot of different jobboards that are sort of
integrated through our applicanttracking system, but LinkedIn
and Indeed are some of the bigones that I think everybody's
probably familiar with.
So I publish those and then,you know, not only do I field
the applicants, so people youknow see those jobs, the
candidates, and they apply tothem.
So I'm, you know, siftingthrough that and moving folks
(06:05):
forward that I see are a fit orhave the basics of what we need,
and then I screen them anddecide whether or not they do
possess these skills and goodcommunity, you know, the soft
skills and the hard skills andthen potentially move them
forward and with that I'm alsogoing out and prospecting.
I'm looking for, you know,talent that might be a little
(06:26):
bit more passive, or even that'sactive and open to work.
On LinkedIn, on Indeed, I focusmainly on technical recruiting,
so sometimes I'll look at sometechnical sites like Dice or
GitHub, but typically my go-tofor prospecting is LinkedIn.
(06:47):
I mean, it's the biggestnetwork out there and the most
robust.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You had mentioned to me that you also work with the
applicants.
You kind of guide them throughthe whole process.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
You're not just working for the company, you're
working for the applicants aswell, right.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, that's a big part of the role is I'm not only
an advocate for our businessside, but I'm an advocate for
the candidates that I usherthrough the process.
And you know, in recruitingbest practices, you know,
especially nowadays.
I did build out like a wholerecruiting and interview process
for our company and launch that.
But the big key here is thecandidate experience, because
(07:30):
you know, in speaking tocandidates, even if they're not
a fit, they could be a user ofyour technology or, you know, a
client of your company, so youalways want to give them a good
experience.
You know and be my big thing isbeing transparent.
I'm always transparent aboutyou know, maybe, why we decided
not to move forward, or whetheror not you know they have the
basics of what we're looking for, and transparent about what the
hiring manager will screen themand I do coach them through.
(07:53):
You know the process of what toexpect, how to prepare and give
them lots of details like thatas well.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So, to be clear, though you're not necessarily
always looking for someone whohas every box checked in the job
description, you're trying torecognize potential right,
absolutely.
It is because I think a lot ofpeople don't apply for jobs
because they read thosedescriptions and they have some
of it, but they don't have allof it, but they know they could
do the job.
(08:19):
You're saying you'reencouraging them to apply.
You're saying just throw yourhat in the ring, because it's
possible that we're looking notfor the perfect fit on paper,
but the perfect fit of a humanbeing that has a certain range
of skills that we can coach andgrow right.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yeah, yep, absolutely .
Speaker 1 (08:37):
All right.
Well, let's let's step back inyour life a little bit.
First, let's get away from your.
You weren't always a talentacquisition partner.
First you were a teacher apublic school teacher and high
school teacher, by the way,social studies and then you
pivoted in your life and becausethis has been a series on
(08:57):
pivoting, I want to spend alittle bit of time on what your
process was.
How did you first and you don'thave to tell me every personal
detail but how did you firstdecide that you know teaching
wasn't quite right, you neededto make a change?
And then tell us about yourcareer as a teacher first, and
then tell us about what kind ofwent through your mind in terms
(09:19):
of I need to make a change.
And then I have a few follow-upquestions about how you made
the change.
But first tell us about yourlife as a teacher.
Tell us the good, the bad, theugly and why you decided to
leave it.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Absolutely.
So I went to collegespecifically to study education.
I actually first was going tomajor in mathematics because
that was always my favorite andI was very successful throughout
my high school career in mathand science.
So I kind of toyed around withthat.
And then, when I got to college, the math just got way over my
(09:51):
head so and I had a historyclass that I was loving and I
was like, oh, this, this is cool.
And my professor really hookedme and I made that change,
pivoted there into becoming ahistory.
You know, concentration.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Hear that, teachers.
I was just talking to a formercollege teacher of mine
yesterday who had a profoundimpact on me in ways she was not
aware.
You don't know the impact youhave on your students out there.
Teachers, Keep doing what youdo.
Keep believing in what you'redoing, Even if you're not
getting the kind of feedback youfeel you should.
There's always going to besomebody out there.
You're going to reach right,Just like this, Absolutely so.
(10:28):
So I got to give a little propto the teachers out there.
I think teachers are getting theshit kicked out of them these
days.
So little props to them.
But anyways, go back to how youmade sure.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean kind of exactly what you're
saying.
Like teachers, the job ofteaching is not easy.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Everybody thinks like , oh, you know, you get, you get
out of school early and youknow you can go home and take
care of your family like aperfect job for a mother Right
or a family person, unlessyou're my wife who's a teacher
who goes and leaves the house at730 in the morning, is never
home before 530 at night everand then often has things in the
morning, is never home beforefive 30 at night ever, and then
often has things in the eveningto do.
So you know, the two months shegets off is compensation for
(11:10):
the hours, the extra hours sheworks throughout the year.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
That's how I look at it, right, so I'm sorry, I'm all
pro teacher.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I think, like I say, they're getting the crap kicked
out of them and it's just notright so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Agreed.
No, I definitely agree there,and I think that was a big
reason why I was like teachingis not what I thought it was
going to be.
But yeah, I did go to college,you know, with the idea that I
was going to be a teacher.
I always thought I wanted.
You know that was going to bemy, my career growing up.
And you know, when you declarea major in college, half the
time you have no idea the insand outs of it right like you're
(11:43):
just kind of like especially at18, especially at 18 or 19 you
want to do?
yeah, figure out what yourcareer is going to be at 18
years old, where you know, likeI don't even know.
You know what, what my plansare for the next day?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I don't know how to balance my checkbook at 18 years
old, right exactly, yeah,exactly so, um, you know, went
along with that.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
I, you know, you know I graduated with that degree.
I I got a job at my former highschool.
So a little correction Iactually was a parochial school
teacher, not public, I know youmentioned public, so I was
parochial school.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
So I taught at my old .
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, my alma mater, immaculate Heart Academy.
It was an all girls privateschool, catholic school
nonetheless and so I ended upgoing back there.
And you know, after going up toVermont for college, I always
said I'm never coming back toJersey.
And not only did I come back toJersey, I went back to my high
school, which was wild, but youknow it was a great opportunity.
(12:38):
I got a chance to teach.
I first year off, was offered acoaching position, coaching
volleyball, which was my sportin high school as well.
Um, you know, and came back anddid my thing and I taught for,
uh, 13, 12, 13 years.
Um, and you know, there wereyears that were amazing, where I
was like this is it, I love it.
And years where I was like, oh,my God, I got to figure
(13:00):
something else out.
Um, and I think in any career,you've got, you know, days or
stints of time where you kind ofhave those thoughts At least I
think a lot of people do unlessyou've got the dream job.
But you know, I got to a pointwhere, like school, I could come
home and be with my kids.
I was coaching.
I was having to work multiplejobs on the weekends and in the
summer to supplement that income.
(13:31):
Um, it just was too much.
So I went ahead and, you know,started to see what else I could
, I could get into.
And it was always that bigquestion like what, what can I
do?
And my husband at the time wasin recruiting and he was, like
you know, I think you would bereally good at this.
You're a good people person,you're really resourceful, like
(13:51):
you're.
You're really good with um,searching for things online and
finding information which canapply to the recruiting field.
So I went ahead and started whenI was on maternity leave.
Actually, I, you know, startedto network a bit.
You know, I I reached out to,or I actually started
interviewing.
I did get a job opportunity towork for a big recruitment firm,
(14:13):
robert half, which my at thetime husband was working at, and
I was like it's a little tooclose to home.
So I passed up that role, youknow, started to talk to some
other folks in smaller companies, cause I felt that was where
I'd get more attention and moreof um.
You know, the the keyfoundation of what I would need
more, you know, in a smallerenvironment.
Um, and I actually ran into ahigh school friend of mine who
(14:36):
was working for an agency rightup the street from my house and
we started chatting and she waslike you know, we're actually
looking to hire somebody.
And, um, she's like you knowwe're actually looking to hire
somebody and she's like you know, let me know if you're
interested, like send me yourresume.
So she got me an intro to thissmall, a little boutique firm
Like literally I could see itfrom my front door, the building
and I went in for an interviewand multiple interviews.
(14:58):
Actually it was a pretty longprocess and they they ended up
hiring me and I took the role.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Did you have to before you did that?
Did you have to do any trainingto make yourself marketable in
that role, or were you able tojust kind of slide out from
teaching right into doing this?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
So I kind of slid out because they were looking for
somebody entry level and, luckyenough, they saw that I had the
you know, the hunger and theinterest and also some of those
applicable people skills thatthey could coach me.
And that was what my manager atthe time saw in me was that you
know that drive.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
And I got to stop you right there for the people
listening More than the skillthis is what I've always been
told, and I used to hire a lotof people and I used to think
this way more than the necessaryskills, you need the hunger.
If you have that hunger, if youshow that passion, you don't
need all the necessary skillsperfectly in place.
Am I right?
It's really the passion You'relooking for, people who are
(15:53):
going to give themselves to theposition, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yep, yeah, definitely , and you know it did help that
my friend who referred me wasable to speak for me and kind of
, you know, vouch that.
You know I was in it for theright reasons and you know
needed like I could go to herfor questions and I would be
(16:21):
comfortable doing that.
So the networking part ofthings I think definitely helps
as well when you're looking tomake a pivot.
I always say use your network.
Even if it's not somebody,that's like a firsthand
connection.
You know it could be a friendof a friend.
You know that's always superhelpful, whether it's to get a,
you know an in and a company orjust to pick somebody's brain on
(16:42):
what to do and how to get thereacquisition partner when you
were working with applicants.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Is there stuff you experienced or did this?
Just you know?
Overnight you walk into a newjob and you just learn it and
away you go.
I mean, was there any part ofthis process that informs you
(17:09):
now?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Um, I mean kind of.
I think what you said before islike having that hunger and
that drive and that motivationand also being self-aware that
you know I have this 10 year or10 plus year career, um, and I'm
pretty, you know, educated and,uh, you know, confident in that
(17:32):
career.
But you know I might have tostart over.
Um, you know what I mean.
I might have to start from thatbottom and I may.
You and I definitely wascompensated pretty equally
because I wasn't making much asa parochial school teacher.
But I think that's somethingfor folks to keep in mind is to
be, in order to make a pivot,you might have to take a step or
(17:53):
two or more back when it comesto the compensation part of
things and also just seniority,the compensation part of things
and also just seniority.
It's not just going to be thislateral move from one you know
one title to another or you knowyou might have to.
I hate to say it like and Idon't like to say prove yourself
, but you're going to have toyou got to earn your stripes.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Exactly, there's just no getting around it.
You got to earn your stripesand you do.
You know it's just what it isand know in my pivot in my 50s.
I went back to college and Ihad to do internships and of
course I was, you know, like 20years older than anybody I was
interning for and that createdsome awkward moments and frankly
, I'm not going to lie a fewobnoxious moments, but I, you
(18:34):
know, I just knew it going in.
You got to suck this up and doit and I kept my.
I kept a positive attitude andsaid don't worry about my age or
whatever.
I'm just here to do whateveryou want me to do.
There might have been a few carrides home from the gig at a
time where I might have been inmy car going God damn it.
You know what I mean, but youhave to just accept that that's
(18:56):
reality.
You do have to prove yourselfand you got to earn your stripes
, but this is a great place forus to take a quick break,
because we're we're nowtransitioning into the
information I know people want,which is how to get the job, and
we're going to talk about thatin just a minute.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
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Speaker 1 (20:00):
Okay, we're back with Jamie Stevenson.
We're going to now talk aboutshifting into an ever-changing
job market, because what I'venoticed in the last few years is
it seems like the job market ischanging almost as rapidly as
technology.
Every time I buy a new iPhone,six months later it's like
they've come out with the nextgeneration of brilliant
(20:21):
technology, and that's happeningacross the board, and it's kind
of like the job market issimilar.
Now, right, it's changing allthe time, right?
First of all, how do you dealwith that?
What's your advice to people todeal with that without pulling
their hair out of their heads?
And you know how can peoplebest prepare for these changes?
Or?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
actually even more simpler than that.
How can we know what thosechanges are?
So, just watching the news,obviously, you see what some of
these breakthroughs are in,especially technology right, and
that will sort of dictate whatthese new roles might focus on.
But you know, just keeping upto date, like I said, linkedin
(21:07):
is always my source and there'slots of content there that
they're updating on.
You know what are the hot newjobs, what are some of the?
You know the job, you knowwhere's the job market
transitioning to and what aresome companies hiring for and
even looking at, like the USBureau of Labor and Statistics,
they have projections as well.
(21:28):
So yeah, and I mean not evenjust in the tech sector, I mean
there's some obvious ones where,like, the job market is really
hot but may not have like thatlucrative earnings of, like
health care right and nursing,teaching, right.
There's some of those basicsthat aren't tech focused that
you know there is a high demandfor and there, you know, is
increasing demand for.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
So you're saying that LinkedIn's really a great
source, though, to be able tokeep up with these changes,
right?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And also what I've noticed on LinkedIn is there's a
lot of articles of advice onLinkedIn, right.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah, there are, especiallyfrom yeah, like a recruiting
perspective, anything jobrelated, I mean it is.
There's a lot of content thereand that's why, you know, that's
kind of my go-to for what I do,because not only does it
provide me actual you knowprospects of candidates and
whatnot, but also a lot of thatcontent that's needed to keep up
(22:24):
with you know best practices aswell when it comes to hiring
and then the job market ingeneral, to those trends.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Okay, let's talk about, then, how candidates
present themselves All rightwith their resumes and other
written materials, because thischanges often.
When I started my career manyyears ago, it was resumes should
be no more than one page.
If it's more than one page,they're going to throw it in the
garbage.
Now, resumes seem to be likeshort stories.
(22:53):
They seem to be like multiplepages and have a lot of columns
in them and talk about howpeople present themselves
through their resumes and otherwritten materials.
How important, by the way, istheir style of email comp?
You know when they are emailingback and forth with you.
Are you?
You're?
You know you're judging them onthe basis of how they're
(23:15):
writing too, am I right?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
And communication.
Just, you know, you say, likethe multiple page, you know,
resume is acceptable these daysand it is um, it certainly is.
Like I no longer, you know, andI think even when I started
recruiting I was open to longerthan a page resume, but to a
point, um, if somebody is, youknow, rambling on like I'll get
(23:41):
applicants that have five pagelong resumes, and it's just like
, literally they're, they'rewriting down every single detail
of everything.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
With a lot of hyperbole right.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
You can read rights.
You can see right through thatafter a while.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Oh, I'm like okay, if this person can't succinctly
tell me like the key things thatthey do in their daily data,
you know in their day to day oftheir role, then like they're
not going to be a succinctcommunicator and that's not
going to work in, you know, inour company.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I'm going to pause you right there because I want
to make sure we really hammerthat point.
You and I were talking in ourpre-interview that the key in
communication now is and italways was, but it's really
important now is to be succinct.
And if you can't be succinct,get a point across.
It's kind of like an elevatorpitch.
Right, an elevator pitch needsto be only two to three
sentences, and some people makethem seven, eight sentences.
(24:32):
There's a reason it needs to betwo to three sentences.
It's can you get your message?
I mean, if you could do anelevator pitch in one sentence
that clearly gets your messageacross, you're really hitting
you know, hitting high.
So I just want to pause rightthere because I think people
need to understand that succinct.
You know it's not a podcastwhere you're just going to
(24:53):
ramble.
You've got to present yourselfin a succinct and clearly.
You know a nice shiny package,am I right?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Because you know a nice, shinypackage, Am I right?
Yeah, yeah for sure.
Because you know you only havea limited amount of time in
meetings, or you know you wantto be able to be effective and
impactful, because if you'rerambling on, people are going to
zone out and there's no impactthere.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, I sound like the teacher from peanuts
right.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
What's your?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
potential job applicants know about employers
searching their social mediaaccounts, because you know
you're saying LinkedIn, but I'msure there's other social media
platforms that people should beusing.
Do employers do deep searchesand social media accounts?
Speaker 2 (25:36):
So that's an interesting question because I
remember like historically, evenwhen social media came out,
when I was like in college,there was always like, watch out
what you post, yeah.
But I think you know Itypically do not look at social
media unless there's a reason to.
You know, I'll typically lookat just the LinkedIn profile to
(25:59):
make sure that they'representing themselves in that
way and matches up with theirresume, because a lot of times
people will embellish or they'reyou know, especially if folks
are like we had an issue withpeople passing background checks
because we're in a fully remoteenvironment Um, it's crazy to
scams that go on.
But that's probably could be awhole other podcast or maybe two
episodes, yeah definitely.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
I want that.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's crazy.
But um, yeah, as far aschecking social media, I
personally don't do it as much,like I said, unless there's like
a red flag that's raised, likeI remember having a candidate
who was kind of like he was afinalist for a role that we were
recruiting for, but he had somelike erratic behavior, like he
(26:41):
had all the skills we werelooking for, but there were a
couple red flags.
So we did kind of deep in anddid like a search and didn't
necessarily just look at thesocial media, kind of like, did
a google search and saw whatcame up and tried to verify, you
know.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
But um, so you didn't do that.
I want to pause you.
You didn't do that until thered flags appeared yes I want
that.
I want that to get across,because I think we're all
paranoid that anything we eversaid or did in our lives is
going to be used against us inany endeavor we want.
But you really weren't lookingfor that stuff.
It was the person's behaviorthat triggered you to go looking
(27:16):
right.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yes, yeah, I don't have time as a recruiter, like
you know, I don't have time todo that.
I don't have time to look atevery candidate's social media.
You know what I mean.
Like you're lucky if I havetime to get through the entire
applicant pool.
So it's not something that's ago-to of mine, only if there is
like a red flag.
I have had hiring managers only.
I think there was one occasionwhere a hiring manager noticed
(27:39):
somebody's Twitter post and waslike what's this all about?
I'm not sure I feel comfortableSome underground, I don't even
remember what it was, but therewas an alarm raised there on
that.
But that was only one instance.
Sometimes the hiring managerswhen they're, you know,
preparing to interview acandidate, we'll dig a little
(27:59):
bit deeper and point that out.
But for the most part, as fromthe recruiter's perspective, I
do not go beyond LinkedIn?
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Excellent, well, that's great to know, because I
heard that guy.
What's the guy in Shark Tank,the bald guy?
What's the guy in Shark Tank,the bald guy.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
I forget his name.
Oh, Mr Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, that dude he was talking about something
about how he does these deepsearches now, where it's like
$4,500 and they go intoeverything and they can, you
know, like protesters can now berecognized through some kind of
eye recognition and it'll comeup on the deep searches and, and
I'm like you know, he'sfreaking everybody in the world
(28:37):
out.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I'm not seeing you guys with the kind of time or
money to be doing that, whatever, I was just going to say that
most companies are not going tohave the money to invest in
those deep searches now havingsaid this, people, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I'm not giving you all permission she's not giving
you all permission to go allbatshit on your social media
accounts, because you can stillshoot yourself in the foot and I
personally have a theory thatanything that happens before the
age of 25 doesn't really count.
Okay, so if you post somethingwhen you're 18, okay, we can
overlook that.
What are you not?
What are you like now?
(29:09):
But if you're over 25 andyou're posting, you know, crazy
stuff, you might want to becareful about that.
Even though Jamie says shedoesn't look for that, it could
pop up.
All right, let's move forwardwith.
We talked a second ago, beforethe break, about passion and
hunger being really important.
What are the things thatemployers are looking for?
(29:30):
Above all?
What is it that they're reallylooking for?
I mean, is it that crisp resume?
Is it that you have every skillthey need?
You already said that's not thecase, so what are they looking
for?
What do we need to know?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, I think it varies from hiring manager to
hiring manager, to be perfectlyhonest with you, and from
company to company.
It really depends on the sizeof the company, the stage of the
company and what their productis as well.
And again, I work mostly intech environments and I'm hiring
(30:15):
technical candidates, so,especially those that are senior
candidates, like seniorprincipal level, they have to
have that hard, tangibleexperience of being able to code
or whatever that case may beframeworks, languages.
But one thing I could speak toas far as my most recent company
was a fintech and our softwarearchitect and director or SVP of
(30:40):
engineering.
We're really looking for folks,as we've been saying, that were
curious, passionate, hungry,from the sense that you know.
They started off the interviewprocess after I would speak to
the candidate and just verifythe basics.
The next step in the processwas a preliminary technical
interview where the hiringmanager and another technical
(31:03):
person were conducting theinterview with the candidate.
Interview was conversation andthe second half was an actual
coding exercise.
But you know, I would alwayscoach the candidate and say,
listen, they're not, they don'tcare if you get to a solution on
this coding problem.
It's more about how youcommunicate.
How do you talk through whatyou're doing, why you're doing
(31:26):
it and also like, how do youapproach a problem right?
Do you just jump in or are yougoing to stop and be thoughtful
and ask questions to clarifywhat the interviewer is looking?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
for before you jump into it.
Questions are good, right.
Questions show you're curious.
Questions show that you don'tthink you know it all right,
that's so important.
So that's great.
Listen, we're running long.
I got one really importantquestion to ask you now.
Great Listen, we're runninglong.
But I got one really importantquestion to ask you now.
Our next show.
We're going to talk aboutspecific pivoting techniques and
(31:58):
what people need to know whenthey're pivoting, and we're
going to talk a little bit aboutpivoting over 50, because
that's something I did a fullshow on.
But we're going to go to theother end of the spectrum in Gen
Z.
Now we're going to talk justbriefly about Gen Z, because
there has been a rash ofarticles lately in the news
about Gen Z getting fired allover the place.
Like six out of 10 Gen Z peoplewho've been hired in the last
year or two were fired within afew months of getting the jobs.
(32:21):
What I've read is it's a lot todo with the fact that they're
showing up late, they'redressing in pajamas, basically
they're not actingprofessionally.
They're actually telling theirbosses things like no, I'm not
doing that, I'm not doing that,and and sometimes their moms or
dads call their boss to complainabout.
You know, um, things that arejust so crazy to me coming up
(32:43):
when I came up.
But what?
What do we need to tell Gen Zto so that they can become
successful in the workforce andand?
um you know.
I mean, are you?
I know you're not going toadmit this, that you might be
hesitant or not with Gen Z, butbut what do they need to do, to
you know, keep, maintain theirjobs.
(33:03):
And what do they need to dowhen they present themselves in
an interview?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yeah, no, I definitely hear your concerns
and it's funny because you knowI remember this coming up and
all the challenges with themillennials Right.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Well, first of all, it's not my concerns.
I've been reading about thisall over the news lately, but it
was the same.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, it was the same .
When the millennial generationcame into the workplace, there
was all these challenges.
So it's kind of like that youknow that ever, that that, that
concern that's always there.
You know, with the youngergeneration it wasn't my
generation.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
We got the gig and they're like you either do it
our way or you're gone.
You know, there wasn't any.
There wasn't any.
We're going to accommodate youbecause you feel like wearing
pajamas to work today.
No, no, no, no.
That didn't happen in mygeneration, so it is foreign to
me what's going on.
So what do you think?
How are we going to get throughthis?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, no, I think that we're going to get through
it.
I mean we always do.
And I think Gen Z eventually, Imean they're the first
generation that it was.
You know, when they were born,apple phones were out.
You know the social media isjust a part of their norm and
it's totally affecting their wayof being social outside and
(34:15):
inside of the workplace.
And top that with the pandemicright, all of these challenges
that they've had to face andthey really, when they first
graduated college, they werehaving to work remotely from
home.
So they were kind of set upwith a shitty start there, up
(34:35):
with a shitty, you know, startthere.
But, um, you know, I, I, ifyou're asking what my advice
would be you know you do have tobe polished.
You know the workplace is theworkplace.
There are certain basicexpectations that companies are
going to hold and you knowcompanies are evolving, their
cultures are changing.
Um, you know, as far as likemental health, I know that's a
big thing with the Gen Zers, andyou know, as far as like mental
health, I know that's a bigthing with the Gen Zers, and you
know anxiety and this and that.
(34:56):
So you know it's a two-waystreet where we do have to make
some changes and, I think,accommodate.
But at the same time they gotto put on their big kid pants
and show up.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Right, you know, yeah , exactly.
My father used to have a sayingand he was a World War II vet,
so you know, put it inperspective.
But his saying was you don'thave rights, you have
responsibilities.
And what he meant by that waswith rights come
responsibilities.
You can't just you know.
I'll give you an example, afunny one, with my son, who's
young.
He said to me about a year agohe said you know, dad, my friend
(35:30):
gets an allowance for doing hischores.
And I said well, isn't yourfriend lucky?
And he looked at me shocked.
And I said he said shouldn't Iget something?
I said you do.
There's that roof over yourhead and that refrigerator and
that PS5.
No, he looked shocked and Isaid look, we all have to make
an effort to contribute.
We don't get compensated foreverything.
Whenever you need money, Ifloat you what you need, but
(35:53):
you're not going to just getpaid for breathing, for being on
this planet.
And I said but when the daycomes that the world decides to
pay me a salary for just beinghere, I'll cut you in on 10%.
You know, I said I mean we dohave to live up to standards and
if people are paying us forwork, they get to decide what
that work is.
(36:13):
They get to decide what theculture of that environment is,
and if you don't like theculture of it, you know there's
the door right.
I mean, I think there's anawful lot and I understand Gen Z
has really interestingchallenges, really tough
challenges that my generationdidn't have.
Things like you said socialmedia.
You know 24-7 bullying onsocial media, covid.
(36:36):
There are a lot of challengesbut at the end of the day, when
the rubber meets the road, beinga professional is being a
professional right.
It's taking a shower before yougo to work and looking, you
know, clean and going to workand bringing your best attitude
to it.
And if you don't do that, youknow throughout history what
happens to people who don't dotheir jobs they get fired.
(36:57):
It's the way it is.
So I'm not going to take anymore time on this, but I do
appreciate you kind of standingup for them, because I think
they're getting battered rightnow in the press.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, it's a totally different world.
I mean, our kids are watchingthese YouTube YouTubers making
hundreds of thousands of dollarsjust sitting in their basements
.
You know doing the things thatour kids and they're like, oh, I
want to do that.
And it's like, oh, my gosh.
Like you know, I think, genZers, they have this whole
different world that they'reliving in and you know they want
(37:25):
to do things that they'repassionate about and you know
that align with their interests.
But yeah, it's definitely, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, and I like to tell my son, I like to say look,
this idea of influencer isreally fascinating to me because
I want to be influenced bypeople who actually have life
experience.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
frankly, you know, but that's for another show.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
All right, we got to run.
We've run quite a bit long onthis one, but the good news is
Jamie's going to be back foranother show and we're going to
get.
We're going to talk morespecifically about what we need
to know when we're making lifepivots.
So, jamie, thank you for beinghere.
It's great to have you.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
And we will be back with her again.
If you've liked this show,please hit the follow or
subscribe button so we can youcan get notified anytime we drop
a new show Back with Jamie nextweek, so please join us for
that.
For now, thank you forlistening.
No-transcript.
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