April 14, 2025 • 34 mins
What happens when you leave a 30-year teaching career to start fresh in an entirely different field? In this captivating conversation, Norma Kayatsa reveals the challenges, triumphs, and unexpected lessons from her pivot from music educator to successful real estate agent.
Norma's journey begins with an early career detour - studying opera at the prestigious University of Michigan before returning to teaching. That experience planted seeds of adaptability that would serve her decades later when contemplating retirement from education. Rather than simply ending her professional life, Norma sought renewal through real estate, a field she'd long been curious about from casual visits to open houses.
The transition wasn't without significant hurdles. After decades in education's highly structured environment, Norma found herself without external schedules, struggling to create productive routines. Her solution? Using her Roomba's 9am start time as an irritating but effective prompt to begin her workday - a brilliant example of habit building that listeners can immediately apply to their own lives.
Perhaps most fascinating is how Norma discovered unexpected transferable skills. Her background in opera and theater became a secret weapon in real estate negotiations, allowing her to "act the part" when confidence wavered. Meanwhile, her teaching experience translated perfectly to explaining complex real estate concepts to clients - proving that our past careers often equip us in surprising ways for new challenges.
For anyone contemplating a major life change, especially in midlife, Norma offers refreshingly direct advice: "Get out of your own head and just do it." Her story powerfully demonstrates that our second acts can be just as rewarding as our first, provided we're willing to take the leap.
Ready to break through your own barriers? Subscribe now for more inspiring conversations that will help you unlock your full potential, regardless of your life stage.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Well, okay, we're back.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks.
(00:55):
Welcome back to the BarrierBusting Podcast.
I am excited to continue thisseries on pivoting, where I'm
getting the great opportunity totalk to some really interesting
people who have done pivots intheir life and find out from
them how they approached it, howthey came to that decision and
the challenges they've had whiledoing it.
My guest today has what I wouldcall more of a traditional kind
(01:18):
of pivot for those people thatpivot, but it is still
nonetheless a pivot and it has alot of challenges to it and you
have to figure out if you wantto even take the leap, and it
takes a lot of courage.
And she also had a few minorpivots earlier on in life, so
we're going to talk about allthat.
My guest today is Norma Kayatza, who has recently pivoted from
public school teacher to realtor.
Norma spent 30 years as apublic school music teacher and
(01:40):
theater director, who, duringthe last five years of her
tenure as a teacher, also beganher life as a real estate agent.
Norma's success is, in part,the result of finely honed
creativity, communication andeducation skills, which she
utilizes every day to guide herclients through the process of
buying and selling homes, andher work has resulted in
multi-millions of dollars insales, earning her recognition
(02:02):
as part of the Caldwell BankerDiamond Club and consistently
ranking in the top 10 realtorsin her East Greenwich, rhode
Island, office.
As a certified, accreditedbuyer's representative, senior
real estate specialist andat-home with diversity,
professional, norma is committedto serving a wide range of
clients with both expertise andcare.
Norma holds a bachelor's degreein music education from
(02:24):
Vanderkoek College of Music inChicago, a master's of music
education from North FloridaState University, a master's in
performance as an opera singerwhich is pretty interesting from
the University of Michigan andis just a few credits shy of her
doctorate of musical arts, alsofrom the prestigious University
of Michigan School of Music,theater and Dance.
(02:44):
Wow, that's a lot, norm.
It's great to have you here.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Great to be here, thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, it's really interesting to me that you've
had some interesting pivots here, and I want to start with.
You know, going from teachingto real estate isn't exactly, as
I said, like an uncommon pivot,but first.
First you went from teaching inFlorida and then moving to
Michigan to teach, to operasinging and then back to
teaching.
Tell us a bit about that and,in particular, how you made your
decisions to pivot.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Of course.
Well, I always wanted to be amusic teacher, started out at
the Florida School for the Blindand enjoyed the job a lot, but
went back to school for amaster's degree because it was,
of course, paid for by myinstitution.
So why not?
And I started taking voicelessons and I really loved
singing and was told I had atalent for it.
(03:39):
So I decided I was going to goback to school to explore opera
and continued my teaching inMichigan so that I could get
in-state tuition, where I thenwent on and started my grad
degree.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
If I'm right, can I jump in?
If I'm right, that Universityof Michigan school is a top 10
school in the country?
Like you, don't get into that.
If you're, you know, justsinging, you've got to be really
good, right.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I did a little something, something a little
something, something Excellent.
Yeah, so I mean I, I, I wasencouraged, I was, I was a vocal
talent.
That was encouraged.
So I I definitely, you know,put a lot into it and decided I
was going to go for it.
It was probably my first bigpivot leave teaching was
(04:26):
probably my first big pivotLeave teaching.
I quit my job in Floridawithout a job in Michigan, came
to Michigan, found a job to workfor a year because of course U
of M is not cheap.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Okay.
So wait a minute, I want tostop right there.
So you decided you wanted to goto Michigan to study opera and
then, as part of a strategy todo that, move to Michigan to
teach there, to get in-statetuition right.
Correct, all right.
See, this is what I'm talkingabout.
You got to have a strategy, yougot to have a plan, and that's
a great plan because.
I can just imagine how muchmoney that saved you.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, it saved a great deal of money and that really
was the advice from my thenvocal teacher who was at the
University of Michigan at thetime.
Leslie Gwynn said you know, youdon't have to come here right
away, we can study privately fora year while you get in state
tuition.
So it just kind of reallyworked out.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's very cool.
So what happened to opera?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So well, I definitely .
I graduated with a degree and Iended up doing an audition tour
in Europe.
I was recently married, did anaudition tour in Europe and I
decided that I didn't want to be.
After doing it for a bit, Idecided I did not want to be a
(05:40):
70-year-old woman by myself in ahotel room.
I decided what I really wantedto be is I wanted to be a 70
year old woman by myself in ahotel room, um.
I decided what I really wantedto be is I wanted to be a mom,
um, and I wanted to be a presentmom, not traveling all the time
.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, you know it's.
It's funny you talk about thiscause.
I do know one opera person whotold me once that his address is
a PO box in Chicago.
He's just lives in hotel rooms.
He's never home.
I don't think people realizethe sacrifices that performers
and professions like that make.
They just don't have a normallife, right.
And you have twins.
You wanted to be a mom and yougot two for one.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I did I got?
I got two for one, a boy and agirl.
One stop shopping.
Nice, that was a bit hardthough no-transcript and my full
(06:54):
time job took priority for meand singing kind of took a kind
of a side gig job.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Sure, okay, well, all right, let's.
Let's now jump ahead 25 years,cause you're there in Rhode
Island and you're teaching andyou're doing the high school
musicals, I understand Right,which is a that's a big, that's
a big job right there.
So you're doing all that for 25years and you decide that you
can see your retirement in sight.
You know it's going to be fiveyears from then and somehow you
(07:23):
go hey, real estate, let's doreal estate, right.
First of all, how did you decidereal estate?
I mean, how was it that youdecided?
After I retire, I still want towork, and what I want to do is
work in real estate, decidingthat.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I started noticing that one of my favorite things
to do, like when we'd take rides, when our kids would nap in the
back seat and would be, youknow, driving down all these
country roads and would see openhouse signs and I would tell my
husband, can you just pull over, Because I want to go in and
(08:15):
take a look at this house?
Oh, I'm sure he loved that andmy in-laws and mother-in-law was
going to need to come and livewith us, so we were going to
have to sell our house and get anew house and a friend referred
a real estate agent to me andthis real estate agent and I
became friends and she goes.
(08:35):
You know, if you're thisinterested in it, you should
think about checking out.
You know, getting certified,getting a license, and you know
it planted the seed in my brainand I started thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Interesting.
I want to say to my clientslistening right now that learn
something from that.
You never know.
Someone might just pass you byand say a quick something, but
if you're really in tune with it, it could really mean something
for your life, like this didfor you, right.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Right, and it's not even something I did right away,
because at the time our kids,you know, were getting ready to
finish elementary school and goto high school, and so it's not
like it was something that I wasgoing to apply right away, but
certainly my brain wrappedaround it and thought about it.
I mean, hgtv started coming on,I started watching those shows
(09:28):
and then both of my kids, havingtwins, they were both out of
high school at the same time.
I'm by myself, you know, andempty.
We're empty nesters, and I'm,I'm teaching, and it's not that
I had a whole lot of other time,but I was like maybe now I want
to go back to singing, maybenow I want to try something else
.
Maybe now I want to, I want todo something.
(09:49):
And it wasn't necessarily aplan for after I leave teaching
at first, but it was like whatis it that Norma really enjoys
doing and wants to do with herlife?
And I'm not going to sit hereand cry because my kids are gone
now.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Right, ok.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
OK, so that's kind of how it started.
And then during the summer Idecided maybe I could take the
licensing classes and see wherewhere it lies.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Well and that's because, ultimately, you did
start to devise a strategy,though, right, you did go, okay,
I'm going to, I'm going to hookinto this, right so?
But you're still working.
So you just brought up takingclasses.
What's it like taking classes,you know, 20, 30 years after you
finish college and you go backto taking classes?
I mean, I've done it.
(10:38):
I could answer this question,but I want to hear it from your
perspective.
I mean, what was it likelearning the ropes, also in your
off hours, because you had anexhausting job?
I don't think people realizethis.
I have a friend who's a middleschool choir teacher.
She sees 450 people a week, 450students a week.
This is not 25 students in theclassroom.
(10:59):
This is, you know, in middleschool.
You put 50 of them in a roomand it's just mass chaos, right?
So she's exhausted when shecomes home.
You come home and you're takingclasses and learning the ropes.
What was that experience like?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It absolutely was exhausting and it was
challenging, and at an older ageyou question whether it's
something you actually can dohad spent time doing other
things and was kind of thinkingabout other things I might want
to do.
I was kind of in shock at how,for granted, some of the people
(11:47):
who were in the class with mewere like, in other words, I
don't know that they had thesame kind of drive or ambition
that I had.
It was almost as if, yeah, thisis what I'm going to do now,
because this is what I'msupposed to do now, but not a
given choice.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
You know, I went back to school in my retirement to
get a master's degree in socialwork and I was planning to be a
clinician, as most people I'vetold on this show, and I had the
exact same experience.
First of all, can I do this?
I mean like, come on, it's been30 years, can I really pull
this off?
And then I find myself in areally hard degree and I'm sorry
(12:19):
to say, but I wiped the floorwith these kids.
I just did.
And there was something aboutthe fact that I was coming back
to school, because now I've beento grad school twice, once in
my 20s, once in my 50s and mygrades, everything were a
thousand fold better in my50sies.
Because, yes, you have thatlife experience now, which does
pay off and it does add up tosomething.
(12:40):
Those of you who think oldpeople are old and should be
discarded, um and, and it didbring me a different perspective
in terms of how I went toschool.
I mean, I was all in.
This was what I was going to donow.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Right, Right, exactly , and and not only are you all
in, but you have like a thirstfor it, a hunger for it that
maybe you just didn't understandwhen you were younger or or
took for grant, you definitelytook for granted.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, you hit on it a minute ago, I think.
When we're younger, we're doingit because we think we should
be doing it.
When we're older, we're doingit because we've fully decided
to commit, that we want to dothis.
There is and I'm not sayingeverybody young hasn't fully
decided to commit, but it's morecommon at that age to be like
okay, what should I do?
I should do this, okay, I'lltake classes for this and I'll
get a degree in that, but it has.
There's a different type ofhunger when you're our age.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Right Agreed and it's not in.
I mean, I remember loving beingin school when I was young.
It's just when you go back withall these other experiences you
realize all the mistakes thatyou made, even if you were
successful.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And you're better equipped.
I think you're better, allright, so you're doing all this.
It's a lot of work, but you'vementioned to me that COVID
actually helped you out in thisprocess.
Right?
How did COVID?
I mean because it didn't help alot of people.
So how did COVID?
We want to hear a COVID successstory, so hit us with that.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
A COVID success story .
Well, so sure.
Our my teaching classes wereall online and they all had to
kind of be prerecorded so youcould do it at your own time.
It wasn't, it wasn't live.
Most of our assignments weregiven and then you just go back
and check on them.
So there was a lot of free time, and so I took that time to do
(14:22):
all kinds of market analysis andall kinds of extra classes.
That's why I have all thoseinitials after my name, because
I was able to take additionalclasses and everything was
offered online.
So so I was able to just kindof dive in.
I was able to take the chancesof making phone calls that I
wouldn't normally be able to doand just use the time Cool.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Cool, All right.
Well, all right.
Now I got to ask you real quick.
You, I've been doing a coupleof episodes on pivoting and I
classified three reasons forpeople to pivot I want to, I
need to and I have to and I seeyou hovering between I want to
and I need to.
Right, and can you talk to usabout why you wanted to and why
(15:07):
you needed to?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Sure, I wanted to because of course, I was
interested in the subject andbecause I feel strongly that
teachers should be retiring andif they started young, in their
50s, and I was getting to thepoint where I love?
I love my students, I loveteaching, but I could see the
value in somebody new coming inand taking over.
(15:29):
A lot of things werefrustrating me about the way
education was changing andevolving, and it was changing
and evolving in a way.
I wasn't necessarily willing togo, and you're not the first
person to say this to me, by theway.
Education was changing andevolving and it was changing and
evolving in a way.
I wasn't necessarily willing togo.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And you're not the first person to say this to me,
by the way including thispodcast series.
Someone else who pivoted fromteaching.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
From any of your teacher clients that you work
with.
I'm sure all of us have saidthe same thing.
You know, if you startedteaching in the 80s as I did,
it's just a whole differentballgame and it's just not
something I was wanting to dofor a whole lot longer.
Now that I don't feel like Iwas serving them the students as
well as's pension is not uh,it's not necessarily going to
(16:08):
fulfill um the kind ofretirement.
I want Right.
So not only that, but I'm apretty energetic person.
I'm not the kind of person whois just going to sit here with
(16:29):
my cats and knit and my teaAlthough I love doing that,
don't get me wrong.
I knew I had to do somethingelse, so I may not throw myself
into something that I've alwaysjust kind of loved.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well see, I like this because your need to, as far as
I can distinguish, is notbecause you needed to, because
you had to get out of the job,or not because you needed to,
because you really needed money,even though that was part of it
.
Your need to is to fulfillyourself.
This is something I'm workingon with my clients.
You know your need to was torecognize what you need to live
a happy life and you need.
(17:02):
You said you're an energeticperson, you need to keep busy.
You're not going to sit at homeand crochet, right, and so I
think that's really importantfor the listeners to hear.
That need to can also be aboutself-fulfillment, not
necessarily needing to fill yourbank account or needing to
leave a job because it'smiserable.
All right, you had a long anddistinguished career and all of
a sudden, you find yourself as arookie again.
(17:23):
Right, and I had a littleexperience with this, with some
internships where I was like therookie intern again and I was
still 20 years older thaneverybody I was interning for
and in your training and thelearning whatever, there was
some apprenticing, I'm sure thatyou had to do.
So.
Talk about the experience of,you know, finding yourself,
after a distinguished careerbeing a rookie again.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Wow, that is a very difficult but a very exciting
position to be in.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Interesting Because you're a rookie.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Because you're learning something new every day
, and you're learning somethingnew with a whole different
wisdom, as we talked aboutbefore in classes.
So with real estate, no one,you don't really have an
apprenticeship.
It's not like you have studentteaching or you have clinical or
anything like that.
You literally OK, you've passedthe test and now you can go out
and figure out who your clientsare and how you're going to
(18:22):
sell somebody's house or howyou're going to help a buyer,
and that's it.
Um, you have.
So I I felt like I was, youknow, somewhere out there, you
know just kind of all by myself.
But I had an amazing managerand then this realtor that kind
of pushed me into the field toreally pick the phone up and
(18:44):
call constantly, and I was.
I was able to.
Just, I made mistakes.
I was able to call up and say,ok, I screwed this up, what do I
do?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Well, that's one of the tenants I talked about,
about pivoting, and my firstepisode on this was seek
mentorship.
Be humble enough to seekmentorship when you're pivoting
in your fifties, you know,because as much as we've learned
in our lives, we don't knoweverything and uh, it's, it's
terrible to be out thereguessing on your own right.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right and you don't want to.
I mean, when you're talkingabout that, I there's very,
there are very few fields, butthat you could not mess
somebody's life up, but youdon't want to screw up
somebody's home purchase, sure,home sale, you know.
So it's just really important,regardless of your field, I
think when you're doingsomething new, especially when
you don't have those safeguardsin place, is to have a couple
people near you that you reallytrust, that are just a phone
call, you know, or a door knockaway where you can say, hey,
(19:40):
listen, this happened, I need toknow how to handle this
situation.
Or what would you do if, if, ifyou know you made this mistake?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I can relate to this because in my clinical
internship I worked in a privatepractice and I had patients and
they basically just threw me inthe pool, just go and.
And I was like, wait a minute,what do I?
My first client said to me Iwant to kill myself.
That was the first thing out ofher mouth.
And I'm like whoa, hold timeout.
I, you know what do I do andand I I would say you know,
(20:13):
there's a certain gravitas tothis where I don't want to be
guessing, I want to know whatI'm doing and I want so I had to
, like you, I had to seek thatmentorship out.
I really had to like beaggressive to find that.
Well, this is a great place totake a quick break.
We've got much more with Normawhen we come back.
But real quick, her website youcan checkA, so it's
normakiazzahomescom.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Back with more with Norma in just a minute, feeling
overwhelmed, struggling to findbalance in your daily life.
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, mattBrooks offers personalized
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live your best life.
(21:09):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace.
Career, enhance your skills orsimply find more clarity and
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Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
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Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Okay, we're back, you know.
I want to ask you.
So now you're officiallyretired and you're full time
doing this, and let's startright from when you retired and
started full time doing this.
What new skills did yousuddenly discover you needed to
learn, Because now you're inbusiness essentially for
yourself, even though you'reworking for a.
I don't know what you call it.
You don't call it a practice,you call it a brokerage.
(21:53):
Okay, so you're working for abrokerage, but really everybody
that's working for brokerages inbusiness for themselves, so
you've got to now deal with allthat, so what?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
took you out of your comfort zone.
What really you know everything, everything, everything you
know.
I've been a teacher for yearsand you know from seven, 15 to
eight, 30, I have concert choirand from everything was
scheduled for me.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Very structured very structured.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I knew what I was doing.
If you, if you told me normal,you asked me normal, what are
you doing at 12 on a Wednesday,I could tell you what I was
doing.
Now there's no structure.
The structure that there is, astructure I make for myself and
I've never in my entire lifebecause either I've been a
student or a teacher for all buta very short portion of time
(22:42):
when I was a mom to little ones,I've always had my schedule
dictated to me.
So now, all of a sudden, I'mdictating my own schedule.
I'm figuring that out myself.
Not only that, but when I havea class of students, I get a
roster.
Those are my students.
No one has handed me a rosterof houses to sell or buyers to
(23:05):
find houses for.
I have to go out and find those.
A lot of people are under themisconception that when you sign
on with a brokerage likeColdwell Banker, that they're
going to hand you referrals andthat you know if these people
like you they'll hire you.
Nobody gives you a referral.
You know from the brokerageMaybe on a rare occasion, if
(23:27):
you're in the office andsomebody happens to walk in,
will you get that.
So you're literally makingphone calls or paying a referral
firm to give you referrals or,you know, trying to get to know
people in the community and doreach out all on your own.
(23:47):
And that is just so far out ofmy initial comfort zone and
certainly my skillset that I'vehad for years and years.
So I'm learning how to schedulemyself, I'm learning how to
market myself, I'm learning howto do all of those things.
It was a huge learning curveand which I'm still working on
(24:08):
on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Are you struggling at all with social media?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
You would struggle with social media.
Um, and I and I understand thatthat is the key to success, but
I, I gotta tell you that I'mvery intimidated by it.
Um, and every day I I I've I'vehad days where I were like I
really need to do this, I can'tdo it, I'm going to do it
tomorrow.
I really need to do this, Ican't do this, I'm going to do
(24:34):
it tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'm with you a hundred percent because I'm
having the same problem.
I mean, it wasn't that I wasn'ton some social media for a
while there, but you know, heck,I went through my first
master's degree without acomputer.
We didn't have you know.
So I mean, you know, and then I, you know, got on social media
for a while and kind of gotturned off, right, and so
stepped away from it.
And now, yes, to make thebusiness that I'm running work,
(24:56):
I have to be a regular presenceon social media, which not only
means I have to be on it, I haveto create engaging posts.
And you know it's like, and I,like you, I have a lot of skills
.
But that marketing thing, thatselling myself thing, is just
not, it doesn't come natural atall and I really have to work
for it.
So I feel your pain there.
But also this interesting pointyou brought up of suddenly you
(25:18):
have no rigid schedule to follow, you have to make your own
schedule.
Tell me it's.
Tell me I'm wrong when, when Isay it's pretty easy in that
situation to sometimes sit inthat chair drinking tea and
crochet longer than you reallyshould have, right?
It's hard sometimes to motivateyourself day in and day out.
There is no other forcemotivating you, it's just you
got to do it right.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It absolutely is.
And I tell you, the first monthwas like you know, I'd you know
I'd have coffee and my coffeewould turn into a couple of
hours of coffee, a couple hoursof yeah, I'll get to this, maybe
I'll do that Kind of.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I know nothing about this, just what I'm saying I
know nothing about what you'resaying.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
So now I've started making?
Um, I actually listened to oneof your podcasts about making
some small changes.
Um, yeah, I actually listenedto one of your podcasts about
making some small changes.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, I believe it was one of your very first ones
and it inspired me to startmaking some habits, Because I
think that it's very that wasexceptionally wise advice that
you gave.
So now I have a habit my Roombastarts at 9 am and I find it
exceptionally irritating.
(26:31):
So at 9 am, when that Roombagoes off, that is my cue to go
to the gym.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That is exactly what I was talking about in my
podcast.
I wish I knew that example,though I mean she's talking
about the second episode Ipublished, where I talked about
building good habits anddeveloping cues.
Oh my God, the Roomba.
I wish I never thought of thatBrilliant.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah.
So now that gets me out of thehouse to the gym and then, once
I'm done at the gym, I'm goingto devote at least three hours
to something real estate Okay,at least three, and then I can
take a break and then I'll goback to it.
So it has really helped me toforce I've really had to almost
force myself for a schedule.
(27:18):
Now, with real estate sometimesyou get calls to show houses at
unusual times and there has tobe some flux in it.
But the standard schedule ofevery day, you know, is what I
struggled with and I'm makinginroads on a daily basis.
But it is true that you reallydo have to kind of change it by
habit, one at a time.
(27:39):
It's not going to all happen atonce.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Remember what I said in that episode 1% changes,
little changes.
We always fail at New Year'sresolutions because we just aim
too big, we aim too high andlittle changes, and then, once
those become automatic, you moveto the next one.
Well, that's great.
Oh my God, I am so excitedSomebody listened to my show.
That alone is amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
There are several of us.
We have coffee every morning.
We talk about.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Well, actually no, the show's starting to pick up
steam, so I'm pretty happy aboutthat.
Thank all the listeners fordoing that.
How did you find, even thoughyour career was in music and
teaching and real estate is sodifferent what kind of things
from your long and professionalcareer, what kind of experience
has really paid off for you,that you have been able to, you
know, transfer over to this newendeavor?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
I would say the biggest element that I've been
able to transfer, you know,transfer over to this new
endeavor.
I would say the biggest elementthat I've been able to transfer
.
Well, there are two, but one ofthe largest is when you're an
opera singer, you also have toact.
And then in teaching, I taughtdrama and I find myself as a
real estate agent, and someuncomfortable situations.
I'm kind of.
You know, I'm not that, I'm aquiet person, but I'm certainly
(28:48):
not a confrontational person, orI've never.
I guess I use my acting skillsto allow me to negotiate Like I
believe a negotiator shouldnegotiate.
Even though Norma isn't anegotiator, norma knows how to
(29:08):
plug into the acting.
Not that I'm not sincere, but Ihave to use that end.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Sure, oh my God, I wish I thought of that, because
I could do a little bit of thattoo.
That's a brilliant approach,it's just.
It's just reprogramming yourbrain to look at it from a
different angle.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Correct, so I I can take on the persona of a
negotiator.
It doesn't have to be Norma Imean, yes, norma's there, um,
but I I use that.
I use that a lot in real estatewhen I'm negotiating the best
price for um for my buyer, orwhen I'm helping sell my
(29:47):
seller's beautiful home.
And I have to use those skillsthat I've learned Also as an
educator, teaching people.
People don't understand a lotof things about real estate.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
And.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I feel like I can come at it from the educational
standpoint of you.
But those are the two skillsthat I really feel have fared me
very well.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
That's interesting too.
And the educational point ofview, because a lot of people in
a lot of professions that haveto work with people who don't
know their work aren't reallygood at explaining it Right.
They throw out a lot oftechnical terms, like we, you
know.
I know that when I'm withdoctors sometimes they'll use
overly technical terms and Ihave no idea what they're saying
and I'll say I'm sorry theydidn't teach that that day that
(30:29):
I was at the at the in college.
You know I missed.
I must've missed that daybecause I think it's a.
I think it's really importantfor us as professionals to
recognize that the people wework with didn't study like we
did, so it's incumbent upon usto find a way to to make them
comfortable learn what they needto learn without it being
oppressive or making them feelsmall for not knowing the
(30:49):
language Right, so I'm sure,yeah, that's a great thing.
Ok, I want to finish up with onelast thing, because we're
almost out of time.
You, for those that arelistening right now, who are
considering a pivot in theirlives and there's all kinds.
There's people who areconsidering a pivot because they
have to, there's people thatneed to, there's people that
want to, but a pivot is a pivot,regardless, in my opinion,
(31:13):
regardless of the reasons whyyou are going to pivot, it's a
pivot and it takes a lot ofelements that we've talked about
.
What advice can you give them?
I've given them my advice, butI like to hear it from other
people too who've lived thiswhat advice can you share with
people about you know, uh,making a decision to pivot or
doing the pivot or I don't know.
Tell us, tell us what you canshare.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I think the biggest issue is to get out of your own
head and just do it.
I think a lot of times you tryto talk yourself well, what if?
What if I don't find anyclients?
Or what if I don't like itthere?
Or what if this doesn't fitthis particular need of mine?
The fact is is you really don'tknow until you just dive in.
You just have to go for it.
(31:57):
If it's something you'reinterested in, there's something
there.
So I think a lot of times wetalk ourselves out of trying
things that we really want totry.
You know, Norma, I got to saywhat the end is going to be.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I got to say you could be a life coach.
I've heard a lot of it today.
You could really do a great jobwith that, but I think that is
really that's.
The best advice I've heard sofar is get out of your own way,
take the risk, just jump in thepool, why not?
What's the worst that couldhappen?
(32:35):
Right, and we do stop ourselveswith lots of things in life and
those things, to be fair,happen because of negative
experiences we've had throughoutour whole lives.
A lot of things that are poppedinto our heads from our
childhood and throughout ourlives make us a little more
reluctant and a little reticentin a lot of different situations
and make us talk ourselves intostaying away from things.
You're just damn right.
Take the plunge, just do it.
Wow, what a great episode.
(32:56):
I can't thank you enough forbeing here, norma.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
It's been a thrill.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, Remember to visit her at
wwwnormakayatahomescom.
She's in Rhode Island.
So if you're looking for a homein Rhode Island, she's your
girl.
She will do a great job for you.
Everybody I've got next week, Ithink it is I've got a
recruiter coming on and we'regoing to talk about what we need
to know from a recruiter'sperspective, about pivoting not
(33:22):
only in our lives in general atany age, but also, in particular
, if we're going to pivot after50, which is a whole different
thing.
So thank you all for listening.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please hit the follow
or subscribe button so you'llknow when we drop new episodes.
Also, I want to put this out toyou If you're listening and you
have an idea for a topic you'dlike me to cover, I want to
(33:42):
invite you to shoot me an emailat matt at mattbrookscoachingcom
.
Matt, invite you to shoot me anemail at matt at
mattbrookscoachingcom.
Matt at mattbrookscoachingcomyou spell Matt with two Ts, by
the way but send me your ideas.
I'd love to hear from you andmaybe we'll get some great ideas
and I will do my best to dogreat shows for you on that.
But in the meantime, thanksagain to Norma Kayatsa.
Thank you all for listening Bewell and I'll catch you next
(34:04):
time on the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Thank you.
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Well, okay, we're back.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks.
(00:55):
Welcome back to the BarrierBusting Podcast.
I am excited to continue thisseries on pivoting, where I'm
getting the great opportunity totalk to some really interesting
people who have done pivots intheir life and find out from
them how they approached it, howthey came to that decision and
the challenges they've had whiledoing it.
My guest today has what I wouldcall more of a traditional kind
(01:18):
of pivot for those people thatpivot, but it is still
nonetheless a pivot and it has alot of challenges to it and you
have to figure out if you wantto even take the leap, and it
takes a lot of courage.
And she also had a few minorpivots earlier on in life, so
we're going to talk about allthat.
My guest today is Norma Kayatza, who has recently pivoted from
public school teacher to realtor.
Norma spent 30 years as apublic school music teacher and
(01:40):
theater director, who, duringthe last five years of her
tenure as a teacher, also beganher life as a real estate agent.
Norma's success is, in part,the result of finely honed
creativity, communication andeducation skills, which she
utilizes every day to guide herclients through the process of
buying and selling homes, andher work has resulted in
multi-millions of dollars insales, earning her recognition
(02:02):
as part of the Caldwell BankerDiamond Club and consistently
ranking in the top 10 realtorsin her East Greenwich, rhode
Island, office.
As a certified, accreditedbuyer's representative, senior
real estate specialist andat-home with diversity,
professional, norma is committedto serving a wide range of
clients with both expertise andcare.
Norma holds a bachelor's degreein music education from
(02:24):
Vanderkoek College of Music inChicago, a master's of music
education from North FloridaState University, a master's in
performance as an opera singerwhich is pretty interesting from
the University of Michigan andis just a few credits shy of her
doctorate of musical arts, alsofrom the prestigious University
of Michigan School of Music,theater and Dance.
(02:44):
Wow, that's a lot, norm.
It's great to have you here.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Great to be here, thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, it's really interesting to me that you've
had some interesting pivots here, and I want to start with.
You know, going from teachingto real estate isn't exactly, as
I said, like an uncommon pivot,but first.
First you went from teaching inFlorida and then moving to
Michigan to teach, to operasinging and then back to
teaching.
Tell us a bit about that and,in particular, how you made your
decisions to pivot.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Of course.
Well, I always wanted to be amusic teacher, started out at
the Florida School for the Blindand enjoyed the job a lot, but
went back to school for amaster's degree because it was,
of course, paid for by myinstitution.
So why not?
And I started taking voicelessons and I really loved
singing and was told I had atalent for it.
(03:39):
So I decided I was going to goback to school to explore opera
and continued my teaching inMichigan so that I could get
in-state tuition, where I thenwent on and started my grad
degree.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
If I'm right, can I jump in?
If I'm right, that Universityof Michigan school is a top 10
school in the country?
Like you, don't get into that.
If you're, you know, justsinging, you've got to be really
good, right.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I did a little something, something a little
something, something Excellent.
Yeah, so I mean I, I, I wasencouraged, I was, I was a vocal
talent.
That was encouraged.
So I I definitely, you know,put a lot into it and decided I
was going to go for it.
It was probably my first bigpivot leave teaching was
(04:26):
probably my first big pivotLeave teaching.
I quit my job in Floridawithout a job in Michigan, came
to Michigan, found a job to workfor a year because of course U
of M is not cheap.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Okay.
So wait a minute, I want tostop right there.
So you decided you wanted to goto Michigan to study opera and
then, as part of a strategy todo that, move to Michigan to
teach there, to get in-statetuition right.
Correct, all right.
See, this is what I'm talkingabout.
You got to have a strategy, yougot to have a plan, and that's
a great plan because.
I can just imagine how muchmoney that saved you.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yes, it saved a great deal of money and that really
was the advice from my thenvocal teacher who was at the
University of Michigan at thetime.
Leslie Gwynn said you know, youdon't have to come here right
away, we can study privately fora year while you get in state
tuition.
So it just kind of reallyworked out.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
That's very cool.
So what happened to opera?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So well, I definitely .
I graduated with a degree and Iended up doing an audition tour
in Europe.
I was recently married, did anaudition tour in Europe and I
decided that I didn't want to be.
After doing it for a bit, Idecided I did not want to be a
(05:40):
70-year-old woman by myself in ahotel room.
I decided what I really wantedto be is I wanted to be a 70
year old woman by myself in ahotel room, um.
I decided what I really wantedto be is I wanted to be a mom,
um, and I wanted to be a presentmom, not traveling all the time
.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well, you know it's.
It's funny you talk about thiscause.
I do know one opera person whotold me once that his address is
a PO box in Chicago.
He's just lives in hotel rooms.
He's never home.
I don't think people realizethe sacrifices that performers
and professions like that make.
They just don't have a normallife, right.
And you have twins.
You wanted to be a mom and yougot two for one.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
I did I got?
I got two for one, a boy and agirl.
One stop shopping.
Nice, that was a bit hardthough no-transcript and my full
(06:54):
time job took priority for meand singing kind of took a kind
of a side gig job.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Sure, okay, well, all right, let's.
Let's now jump ahead 25 years,cause you're there in Rhode
Island and you're teaching andyou're doing the high school
musicals, I understand Right,which is a that's a big, that's
a big job right there.
So you're doing all that for 25years and you decide that you
can see your retirement in sight.
You know it's going to be fiveyears from then and somehow you
(07:23):
go hey, real estate, let's doreal estate, right.
First of all, how did you decidereal estate?
I mean, how was it that youdecided?
After I retire, I still want towork, and what I want to do is
work in real estate, decidingthat.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I started noticing that one of my favorite things
to do, like when we'd take rides, when our kids would nap in the
back seat and would be, youknow, driving down all these
country roads and would see openhouse signs and I would tell my
husband, can you just pull over, Because I want to go in and
(08:15):
take a look at this house?
Oh, I'm sure he loved that andmy in-laws and mother-in-law was
going to need to come and livewith us, so we were going to
have to sell our house and get anew house and a friend referred
a real estate agent to me andthis real estate agent and I
became friends and she goes.
(08:35):
You know, if you're thisinterested in it, you should
think about checking out.
You know, getting certified,getting a license, and you know
it planted the seed in my brainand I started thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Interesting.
I want to say to my clientslistening right now that learn
something from that.
You never know.
Someone might just pass you byand say a quick something, but
if you're really in tune with it, it could really mean something
for your life, like this didfor you, right.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Right, and it's not even something I did right away,
because at the time our kids,you know, were getting ready to
finish elementary school and goto high school, and so it's not
like it was something that I wasgoing to apply right away, but
certainly my brain wrappedaround it and thought about it.
I mean, hgtv started coming on,I started watching those shows
(09:28):
and then both of my kids, havingtwins, they were both out of
high school at the same time.
I'm by myself, you know, andempty.
We're empty nesters, and I'm,I'm teaching, and it's not that
I had a whole lot of other time,but I was like maybe now I want
to go back to singing, maybenow I want to try something else
.
Maybe now I want to, I want todo something.
(09:49):
And it wasn't necessarily aplan for after I leave teaching
at first, but it was like whatis it that Norma really enjoys
doing and wants to do with herlife?
And I'm not going to sit hereand cry because my kids are gone
now.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Right, ok.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
OK, so that's kind of how it started.
And then during the summer Idecided maybe I could take the
licensing classes and see wherewhere it lies.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Well and that's because, ultimately, you did
start to devise a strategy,though, right, you did go, okay,
I'm going to, I'm going to hookinto this, right so?
But you're still working.
So you just brought up takingclasses.
What's it like taking classes,you know, 20, 30 years after you
finish college and you go backto taking classes?
I mean, I've done it.
(10:38):
I could answer this question,but I want to hear it from your
perspective.
I mean, what was it likelearning the ropes, also in your
off hours, because you had anexhausting job?
I don't think people realizethis.
I have a friend who's a middleschool choir teacher.
She sees 450 people a week, 450students a week.
This is not 25 students in theclassroom.
(10:59):
This is, you know, in middleschool.
You put 50 of them in a roomand it's just mass chaos, right?
So she's exhausted when shecomes home.
You come home and you're takingclasses and learning the ropes.
What was that experience like?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
It absolutely was exhausting and it was
challenging, and at an older ageyou question whether it's
something you actually can dohad spent time doing other
things and was kind of thinkingabout other things I might want
to do.
I was kind of in shock at how,for granted, some of the people
(11:47):
who were in the class with mewere like, in other words, I
don't know that they had thesame kind of drive or ambition
that I had.
It was almost as if, yeah, thisis what I'm going to do now,
because this is what I'msupposed to do now, but not a
given choice.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
You know, I went back to school in my retirement to
get a master's degree in socialwork and I was planning to be a
clinician, as most people I'vetold on this show, and I had the
exact same experience.
First of all, can I do this?
I mean like, come on, it's been30 years, can I really pull
this off?
And then I find myself in areally hard degree and I'm sorry
(12:19):
to say, but I wiped the floorwith these kids.
I just did.
And there was something aboutthe fact that I was coming back
to school, because now I've beento grad school twice, once in
my 20s, once in my 50s and mygrades, everything were a
thousand fold better in my50sies.
Because, yes, you have thatlife experience now, which does
pay off and it does add up tosomething.
(12:40):
Those of you who think oldpeople are old and should be
discarded, um and, and it didbring me a different perspective
in terms of how I went toschool.
I mean, I was all in.
This was what I was going to donow.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Right, Right, exactly , and and not only are you all
in, but you have like a thirstfor it, a hunger for it that
maybe you just didn't understandwhen you were younger or or
took for grant, you definitelytook for granted.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Well, you hit on it a minute ago, I think.
When we're younger, we're doingit because we think we should
be doing it.
When we're older, we're doingit because we've fully decided
to commit, that we want to dothis.
There is and I'm not sayingeverybody young hasn't fully
decided to commit, but it's morecommon at that age to be like
okay, what should I do?
I should do this, okay, I'lltake classes for this and I'll
get a degree in that, but it has.
There's a different type ofhunger when you're our age.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Right Agreed and it's not in.
I mean, I remember loving beingin school when I was young.
It's just when you go back withall these other experiences you
realize all the mistakes thatyou made, even if you were
successful.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And you're better equipped.
I think you're better, allright, so you're doing all this.
It's a lot of work, but you'vementioned to me that COVID
actually helped you out in thisprocess.
Right?
How did COVID?
I mean because it didn't help alot of people.
So how did COVID?
We want to hear a COVID successstory, so hit us with that.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
A COVID success story .
Well, so sure.
Our my teaching classes wereall online and they all had to
kind of be prerecorded so youcould do it at your own time.
It wasn't, it wasn't live.
Most of our assignments weregiven and then you just go back
and check on them.
So there was a lot of free time, and so I took that time to do
(14:22):
all kinds of market analysis andall kinds of extra classes.
That's why I have all thoseinitials after my name, because
I was able to take additionalclasses and everything was
offered online.
So so I was able to just kindof dive in.
I was able to take the chancesof making phone calls that I
wouldn't normally be able to doand just use the time Cool.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Cool, All right.
Well, all right.
Now I got to ask you real quick.
You, I've been doing a coupleof episodes on pivoting and I
classified three reasons forpeople to pivot I want to, I
need to and I have to and I seeyou hovering between I want to
and I need to.
Right, and can you talk to usabout why you wanted to and why
(15:07):
you needed to?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Sure, I wanted to because of course, I was
interested in the subject andbecause I feel strongly that
teachers should be retiring andif they started young, in their
50s, and I was getting to thepoint where I love?
I love my students, I loveteaching, but I could see the
value in somebody new coming inand taking over.
(15:29):
A lot of things werefrustrating me about the way
education was changing andevolving, and it was changing
and evolving in a way.
I wasn't necessarily willing togo, and you're not the first
person to say this to me, by theway.
Education was changing andevolving and it was changing and
evolving in a way.
I wasn't necessarily willing togo.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And you're not the first person to say this to me,
by the way including thispodcast series.
Someone else who pivoted fromteaching.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
From any of your teacher clients that you work
with.
I'm sure all of us have saidthe same thing.
You know, if you startedteaching in the 80s as I did,
it's just a whole differentballgame and it's just not
something I was wanting to dofor a whole lot longer.
Now that I don't feel like Iwas serving them the students as
well as's pension is not uh,it's not necessarily going to
(16:08):
fulfill um the kind ofretirement.
I want Right.
So not only that, but I'm apretty energetic person.
I'm not the kind of person whois just going to sit here with
(16:29):
my cats and knit and my teaAlthough I love doing that,
don't get me wrong.
I knew I had to do somethingelse, so I may not throw myself
into something that I've alwaysjust kind of loved.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well see, I like this because your need to, as far as
I can distinguish, is notbecause you needed to, because
you had to get out of the job,or not because you needed to,
because you really needed money,even though that was part of it
.
Your need to is to fulfillyourself.
This is something I'm workingon with my clients.
You know your need to was torecognize what you need to live
a happy life and you need.
(17:02):
You said you're an energeticperson, you need to keep busy.
You're not going to sit at homeand crochet, right, and so I
think that's really importantfor the listeners to hear.
That need to can also be aboutself-fulfillment, not
necessarily needing to fill yourbank account or needing to
leave a job because it'smiserable.
All right, you had a long anddistinguished career and all of
a sudden, you find yourself as arookie again.
(17:23):
Right, and I had a littleexperience with this, with some
internships where I was like therookie intern again and I was
still 20 years older thaneverybody I was interning for
and in your training and thelearning whatever, there was
some apprenticing, I'm sure thatyou had to do.
So.
Talk about the experience of,you know, finding yourself,
after a distinguished careerbeing a rookie again.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Wow, that is a very difficult but a very exciting
position to be in.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Interesting Because you're a rookie.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Because you're learning something new every day
, and you're learning somethingnew with a whole different
wisdom, as we talked aboutbefore in classes.
So with real estate, no one,you don't really have an
apprenticeship.
It's not like you have studentteaching or you have clinical or
anything like that.
You literally OK, you've passedthe test and now you can go out
and figure out who your clientsare and how you're going to
(18:22):
sell somebody's house or howyou're going to help a buyer,
and that's it.
Um, you have.
So I I felt like I was, youknow, somewhere out there, you
know just kind of all by myself.
But I had an amazing managerand then this realtor that kind
of pushed me into the field toreally pick the phone up and
(18:44):
call constantly, and I was.
I was able to.
Just, I made mistakes.
I was able to call up and say,ok, I screwed this up, what do I
do?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Well, that's one of the tenants I talked about,
about pivoting, and my firstepisode on this was seek
mentorship.
Be humble enough to seekmentorship when you're pivoting
in your fifties, you know,because as much as we've learned
in our lives, we don't knoweverything and uh, it's, it's
terrible to be out thereguessing on your own right.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Right and you don't want to.
I mean, when you're talkingabout that, I there's very,
there are very few fields, butthat you could not mess
somebody's life up, but youdon't want to screw up
somebody's home purchase, sure,home sale, you know.
So it's just really important,regardless of your field, I
think when you're doingsomething new, especially when
you don't have those safeguardsin place, is to have a couple
people near you that you reallytrust, that are just a phone
call, you know, or a door knockaway where you can say, hey,
(19:40):
listen, this happened, I need toknow how to handle this
situation.
Or what would you do if, if, ifyou know you made this mistake?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I can relate to this because in my clinical
internship I worked in a privatepractice and I had patients and
they basically just threw me inthe pool, just go and.
And I was like, wait a minute,what do I?
My first client said to me Iwant to kill myself.
That was the first thing out ofher mouth.
And I'm like whoa, hold timeout.
I, you know what do I do andand I I would say you know,
(20:13):
there's a certain gravitas tothis where I don't want to be
guessing, I want to know whatI'm doing and I want so I had to
, like you, I had to seek thatmentorship out.
I really had to like beaggressive to find that.
Well, this is a great place totake a quick break.
We've got much more with Normawhen we come back.
But real quick, her website youcan checkA, so it's
normakiazzahomescom.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Back with more with Norma in just a minute, feeling
overwhelmed, struggling to findbalance in your daily life.
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, mattBrooks offers personalized
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
(21:09):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace.
Career, enhance your skills orsimply find more clarity and
peace, matt is here to be yourpartner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Okay, we're back, you know.
I want to ask you.
So now you're officiallyretired and you're full time
doing this, and let's startright from when you retired and
started full time doing this.
What new skills did yousuddenly discover you needed to
learn, Because now you're inbusiness essentially for
yourself, even though you'reworking for a.
I don't know what you call it.
You don't call it a practice,you call it a brokerage.
(21:53):
Okay, so you're working for abrokerage, but really everybody
that's working for brokerages inbusiness for themselves, so
you've got to now deal with allthat, so what?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
took you out of your comfort zone.
What really you know everything, everything, everything you
know.
I've been a teacher for yearsand you know from seven, 15 to
eight, 30, I have concert choirand from everything was
scheduled for me.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Very structured very structured.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
I knew what I was doing.
If you, if you told me normal,you asked me normal, what are
you doing at 12 on a Wednesday,I could tell you what I was
doing.
Now there's no structure.
The structure that there is, astructure I make for myself and
I've never in my entire lifebecause either I've been a
student or a teacher for all buta very short portion of time
(22:42):
when I was a mom to little ones,I've always had my schedule
dictated to me.
So now, all of a sudden, I'mdictating my own schedule.
I'm figuring that out myself.
Not only that, but when I havea class of students, I get a
roster.
Those are my students.
No one has handed me a rosterof houses to sell or buyers to
(23:05):
find houses for.
I have to go out and find those.
A lot of people are under themisconception that when you sign
on with a brokerage likeColdwell Banker, that they're
going to hand you referrals andthat you know if these people
like you they'll hire you.
Nobody gives you a referral.
You know from the brokerageMaybe on a rare occasion, if
(23:27):
you're in the office andsomebody happens to walk in,
will you get that.
So you're literally makingphone calls or paying a referral
firm to give you referrals or,you know, trying to get to know
people in the community and doreach out all on your own.
(23:47):
And that is just so far out ofmy initial comfort zone and
certainly my skillset that I'vehad for years and years.
So I'm learning how to schedulemyself, I'm learning how to
market myself, I'm learning howto do all of those things.
It was a huge learning curveand which I'm still working on
(24:08):
on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Are you struggling at all with social media?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
You would struggle with social media.
Um, and I and I understand thatthat is the key to success, but
I, I gotta tell you that I'mvery intimidated by it.
Um, and every day I I I've I'vehad days where I were like I
really need to do this, I can'tdo it, I'm going to do it
tomorrow.
I really need to do this, Ican't do this, I'm going to do
(24:34):
it tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'm with you a hundred percent because I'm
having the same problem.
I mean, it wasn't that I wasn'ton some social media for a
while there, but you know, heck,I went through my first
master's degree without acomputer.
We didn't have you know.
So I mean, you know, and then I, you know, got on social media
for a while and kind of gotturned off, right, and so
stepped away from it.
And now, yes, to make thebusiness that I'm running work,
(24:56):
I have to be a regular presenceon social media, which not only
means I have to be on it, I haveto create engaging posts.
And you know it's like, and I,like you, I have a lot of skills
.
But that marketing thing, thatselling myself thing, is just
not, it doesn't come natural atall and I really have to work
for it.
So I feel your pain there.
But also this interesting pointyou brought up of suddenly you
(25:18):
have no rigid schedule to follow, you have to make your own
schedule.
Tell me it's.
Tell me I'm wrong when, when Isay it's pretty easy in that
situation to sometimes sit inthat chair drinking tea and
crochet longer than you reallyshould have, right?
It's hard sometimes to motivateyourself day in and day out.
There is no other forcemotivating you, it's just you
got to do it right.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It absolutely is.
And I tell you, the first monthwas like you know, I'd you know
I'd have coffee and my coffeewould turn into a couple of
hours of coffee, a couple hoursof yeah, I'll get to this, maybe
I'll do that Kind of.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I know nothing about this, just what I'm saying I
know nothing about what you'resaying.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
So now I've started making?
Um, I actually listened to oneof your podcasts about making
some small changes.
Um, yeah, I actually listenedto one of your podcasts about
making some small changes.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, I believe it was one of your very first ones
and it inspired me to startmaking some habits, Because I
think that it's very that wasexceptionally wise advice that
you gave.
So now I have a habit my Roombastarts at 9 am and I find it
exceptionally irritating.
(26:31):
So at 9 am, when that Roombagoes off, that is my cue to go
to the gym.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
That is exactly what I was talking about in my
podcast.
I wish I knew that example,though I mean she's talking
about the second episode Ipublished, where I talked about
building good habits anddeveloping cues.
Oh my God, the Roomba.
I wish I never thought of thatBrilliant.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah.
So now that gets me out of thehouse to the gym and then, once
I'm done at the gym, I'm goingto devote at least three hours
to something real estate Okay,at least three, and then I can
take a break and then I'll goback to it.
So it has really helped me toforce I've really had to almost
force myself for a schedule.
(27:18):
Now, with real estate sometimesyou get calls to show houses at
unusual times and there has tobe some flux in it.
But the standard schedule ofevery day, you know, is what I
struggled with and I'm makinginroads on a daily basis.
But it is true that you reallydo have to kind of change it by
habit, one at a time.
(27:39):
It's not going to all happen atonce.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Remember what I said in that episode 1% changes,
little changes.
We always fail at New Year'sresolutions because we just aim
too big, we aim too high andlittle changes, and then, once
those become automatic, you moveto the next one.
Well, that's great.
Oh my God, I am so excitedSomebody listened to my show.
That alone is amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
There are several of us.
We have coffee every morning.
We talk about.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Well, actually no, the show's starting to pick up
steam, so I'm pretty happy aboutthat.
Thank all the listeners fordoing that.
How did you find, even thoughyour career was in music and
teaching and real estate is sodifferent what kind of things
from your long and professionalcareer, what kind of experience
has really paid off for you,that you have been able to, you
know, transfer over to this newendeavor?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
I would say the biggest element that I've been
able to transfer, you know,transfer over to this new
endeavor.
I would say the biggest elementthat I've been able to transfer
.
Well, there are two, but one ofthe largest is when you're an
opera singer, you also have toact.
And then in teaching, I taughtdrama and I find myself as a
real estate agent, and someuncomfortable situations.
I'm kind of.
You know, I'm not that, I'm aquiet person, but I'm certainly
(28:48):
not a confrontational person, orI've never.
I guess I use my acting skillsto allow me to negotiate Like I
believe a negotiator shouldnegotiate.
Even though Norma isn't anegotiator, norma knows how to
(29:08):
plug into the acting.
Not that I'm not sincere, but Ihave to use that end.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Sure, oh my God, I wish I thought of that, because
I could do a little bit of thattoo.
That's a brilliant approach,it's just.
It's just reprogramming yourbrain to look at it from a
different angle.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Correct, so I I can take on the persona of a
negotiator.
It doesn't have to be Norma Imean, yes, norma's there, um,
but I I use that.
I use that a lot in real estatewhen I'm negotiating the best
price for um for my buyer, orwhen I'm helping sell my
(29:47):
seller's beautiful home.
And I have to use those skillsthat I've learned Also as an
educator, teaching people.
People don't understand a lotof things about real estate.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
And.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
I feel like I can come at it from the educational
standpoint of you.
But those are the two skillsthat I really feel have fared me
very well.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
That's interesting too.
And the educational point ofview, because a lot of people in
a lot of professions that haveto work with people who don't
know their work aren't reallygood at explaining it Right.
They throw out a lot oftechnical terms, like we, you
know.
I know that when I'm withdoctors sometimes they'll use
overly technical terms and Ihave no idea what they're saying
and I'll say I'm sorry theydidn't teach that that day that
(30:29):
I was at the at the in college.
You know I missed.
I must've missed that daybecause I think it's a.
I think it's really importantfor us as professionals to
recognize that the people wework with didn't study like we
did, so it's incumbent upon usto find a way to to make them
comfortable learn what they needto learn without it being
oppressive or making them feelsmall for not knowing the
(30:49):
language Right, so I'm sure,yeah, that's a great thing.
Ok, I want to finish up with onelast thing, because we're
almost out of time.
You, for those that arelistening right now, who are
considering a pivot in theirlives and there's all kinds.
There's people who areconsidering a pivot because they
have to, there's people thatneed to, there's people that
want to, but a pivot is a pivot,regardless, in my opinion,
(31:13):
regardless of the reasons whyyou are going to pivot, it's a
pivot and it takes a lot ofelements that we've talked about
.
What advice can you give them?
I've given them my advice, butI like to hear it from other
people too who've lived thiswhat advice can you share with
people about you know, uh,making a decision to pivot or
doing the pivot or I don't know.
Tell us, tell us what you canshare.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
I think the biggest issue is to get out of your own
head and just do it.
I think a lot of times you tryto talk yourself well, what if?
What if I don't find anyclients?
Or what if I don't like itthere?
Or what if this doesn't fitthis particular need of mine?
The fact is is you really don'tknow until you just dive in.
You just have to go for it.
(31:57):
If it's something you'reinterested in, there's something
there.
So I think a lot of times wetalk ourselves out of trying
things that we really want totry.
You know, Norma, I got to saywhat the end is going to be.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I got to say you could be a life coach.
I've heard a lot of it today.
You could really do a great jobwith that, but I think that is
really that's.
The best advice I've heard sofar is get out of your own way,
take the risk, just jump in thepool, why not?
What's the worst that couldhappen?
(32:35):
Right, and we do stop ourselveswith lots of things in life and
those things, to be fair,happen because of negative
experiences we've had throughoutour whole lives.
A lot of things that are poppedinto our heads from our
childhood and throughout ourlives make us a little more
reluctant and a little reticentin a lot of different situations
and make us talk ourselves intostaying away from things.
You're just damn right.
Take the plunge, just do it.
Wow, what a great episode.
(32:56):
I can't thank you enough forbeing here, norma.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
It's been a thrill.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Yeah, Remember to visit her at
wwwnormakayatahomescom.
She's in Rhode Island.
So if you're looking for a homein Rhode Island, she's your
girl.
She will do a great job for you.
Everybody I've got next week, Ithink it is I've got a
recruiter coming on and we'regoing to talk about what we need
to know from a recruiter'sperspective, about pivoting not
(33:22):
only in our lives in general atany age, but also, in particular
, if we're going to pivot after50, which is a whole different
thing.
So thank you all for listening.
If you've enjoyed today'sepisode, please hit the follow
or subscribe button so you'llknow when we drop new episodes.
Also, I want to put this out toyou If you're listening and you
have an idea for a topic you'dlike me to cover, I want to
(33:42):
invite you to shoot me an emailat matt at mattbrookscoachingcom
.
Matt, invite you to shoot me anemail at matt at
mattbrookscoachingcom.
Matt at mattbrookscoachingcomyou spell Matt with two Ts, by
the way but send me your ideas.
I'd love to hear from you andmaybe we'll get some great ideas
and I will do my best to dogreat shows for you on that.
But in the meantime, thanksagain to Norma Kayatsa.
Thank you all for listening Bewell and I'll catch you next
(34:04):
time on the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Thank you.
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