Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are you feeling stuck , trapped by barriers holding
you back from reaching your fullpotential?
Well, let's bust through thosebarriers so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
passionate about helping peopleovercome barriers to achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:35):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your true potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Okay, everybody, welcome back.
I am very happy to have my guestfrom last week back this week,
(00:58):
if you weren't listening.
My guest is Dr Jean-Ron LaFond.
He spent his life in the operaand theater world.
He was an opera singer and nowis a teacher all over the world.
I'll read what his backgroundis.
He's also we call him Ron,those of us who know him, but he
has both a master's anddoctorate from the University of
Michigan and a bachelor'sdegree from the famous
(01:19):
Westminster Choir College.
Having performed over 40operatic roles as a baritone and
given at least as manyperformances of oratorio solos,
he has also presented over 400recitals.
In his prestigious career, he'sworked as a stage director and
also as an experienced theateractor.
Throughout his career as aperformer, dr Lafon maintained a
(01:41):
strong presence as a teacherand mentor.
He has taught at the Universityof Florida, east Carolina
University, the University ofDelaware and Westminster Choir
College.
Ron currently works as afreelance teacher, regularly
presenting masterclasses allover the world, as well as
private study all over the world, and he's developed his own
philosophy for teaching singersthat incorporates principles
(02:03):
from both vocal science andmartial arts, which I think is
really fascinating.
Ron, welcome back to the show.
It's good to have you again.
Thanks for doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Thanks, man Pleasure.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
We were talking about the root causes of performance
anxiety the last time, and Iwant to take that to another
level in terms now of copingmechanisms and strategies for
coping with performance anxiety,and I want to remind the
listeners that my first show ofthis series was on performance
anxiety in general, the kind weall feel.
You don't have to be aprofessional performer to
(02:35):
experience this.
You might need to give a toastat a wedding or give a
presentation at work or churchor something, and you suddenly
go through performance anxiety.
If you listen to the firstepisode I did on this, there's a
bunch of tips as to how to dealwith that, but we're going to
talk more.
We've been talking about howprofessional performers deal
with it, because I think there'sa lot to learn from that.
(02:55):
So, ron, let's.
We talked about performanceanxiety and how it, you know,
comes up, and a lot of timesit's this what you called, in
tennis, scar tissue, which isreally memories of when things
went wrong, and I mentioned thatanxiety is often caused by fear
of anxiety.
That's pretty common.
What strategies do yourecommend for your students for
(03:16):
managing performance anxietybefore stepping out on stage?
And then we'll come back to thesame question and talk about it
before stepping out on thetennis court, because, I should
mention for anybody who didn'tlisten last week, ron is also a
lifelong, serious tennis player,like a real, the real deal, and
so he can speak both from themusical perspective and the
performing arts perspective andthe sports perspective.
(03:38):
So again, ron, what strategiesdo you recommend for managing
performance anxiety beforestepping on stage?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Just like anything else, preparation is the most
important thing.
You have to know your materialbackwards and forwards such that
you can be in a place where, ifthings go a little bit awry
which they often do you have thepresence of mind to be able to
adapt.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
It's kind of like a muscle memory, right.
It's kind of like if you'rereally well prepared.
I talked about this in my show.
You create a kind of musclememory that will save your butt
in those moments.
Right, that's it.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I mean, I'm working with a tenor right now on a role
that's coming up, verydifficult role, and we've spent
the last year and a half workingon this role because it's a
role that is a bit beyond whatis done up to this point.
I received a text message fromhim just today where he said,
(04:39):
quote where is it?
Yeah, I'm feeling way moreconfident for next week, which
is something else he has to do.
Yeah, he said it in a verywonderful way that he's, that
(04:59):
he's been thinking aboutsomething.
And where did he say yeah,there it is.
I've been doing uh, I've donethis.
I tested a little bit todayanyway, just to see the
contemplating I've been doingabout separating head and chest
voices.
But this specific has marinatedand the idea is that he's been
thinking about these conceptsthat we've been talking about,
(05:21):
thinking about them, justimagining them just in his
thoughts how does it feel tofeel the separation of these two
elements?
And he said he was wondering ifthose thoughts had marinated
into actual physical experience.
And he sang and he sent me acouple of uh recordings and it's
extraordinary the growth thathe's made.
He's made that step into afeeling like, okay, my body has
(05:43):
absorbed this now.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Isn't that wonderful.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, it's incredible , I mean, and for this to work,
I mean, this is a thing I'veworked with for 14 years and we
have this back and forth goingon where it's his process that
I'm guiding him through.
But we have this back and forthand so that sensation of it's
internalized, it's physically,uh, muscle memory now.
(06:08):
So and that means that the actof singing is physical memory,
the act of moving on stage, ofacting, is physical memory.
The, the music itself is, is,is physical memory.
The text, the expression, allof that is already prepared.
Great singers do that.
(06:28):
They are absolutely perfectlyprepared, because when they go
in they're going to meet withother elements and then they
have to be able to navigate that.
So they cannot be worried aboutwhether or not their voices can
do the job.
They can't be worried aboutwhether or not their memory of
the text is a problem.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
So, first and foremost, preparation yeah, I
had a friend in classical musicsay to me that the thing is, you
never know what's going tohappen on stage.
No matter how well everybody'sprepared, things happen in the
audience that you can't expectand they may throw you.
And so being fully preparedisn't just about overcoming
anxiety, it's being able tohandle the unexpected in the
(07:06):
moment.
Is that right?
Has that been your experience?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Oh, absolutely, man.
I could tell you stories ofthings that went totally wrong
on stage, but you find a way tomake it work.
The audience doesn't know.
But when you go backstage andyou and your colleagues are
laughing your asses off becauseit's like how did we get through
that moment?
Right, Right, but that'sbecause what you were supposed
to do on stage was so worked outbetween you all that when
(07:31):
something went way off, we wereable to figure out a way to get
out of that problem in themoment, All right let's shift to
tennis, because you made thepoint last week that I think is
really important.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
The tennis we're talking about it's a solo thing.
It's like a soloist you're onyour own out there and what.
I'm sure there's similar uhissues in terms of being well
prepared, but there's otherthings that can come into one's
head before stepping out onto acourt in a match.
What, what strategies do yourecommend for for people playing
(08:03):
tennis?
To you know, get themselvescalm and focused if they're
experiencing anxiety before amatch.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, you have to have a very clear idea of what
you're doing, what the processis.
When you walk into a tenniscourt, you and your opponent
walk out.
You have a few minutes whereyou warm up together.
Right, this is the moment thatyou get yourself in preparation
mode because you heading backand forth with with uh, your
opponent.
It's, it's.
(08:31):
It's a moment where you'regetting information about how
this person hits the ball.
Uh, what are the tendencies?
You practice volleys.
How do they volley?
Is the backhand good?
Is the forehand?
All of this stuff isinformation.
So, instead of being nervous,you have tasks, very specific
tasks.
Oh, interesting, keep youfocused.
So, during this entire time,that keep you focused, okay.
(08:53):
So I'm hitting the ball backand forth.
If I'm empty-minded, what'sgoing to happen?
I'm going to fill my mind withoh, this guy hits a pretty good
forehand.
What am I going to do aboutthat?
Or maybe he's going to kill me.
That happened to me in onematch where I avoid this guy's
forehand and it wasn't even thatstrong a forehand because I was
told he had a good forehand andI ended up losing that match
(09:13):
and I shouldn't have.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
This is a match I should have won.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, so I never did that again.
So the thing is that ifsomebody has a hand there, let's
see what it does right.
It may be strong, but is itconsistent?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
so this is a version.
This is a version of beingpresent in the moment, which is
one of the tips that I gave inmy show clearing your mind out
and you know.
What are you seeing right now,what are you hearing right now,
what are you feeling right now,what is in the moment?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
to get out of your head, that's exactly what you're
saying here, right?
that's how you prepare, becausethe thing is that your game is
one thing, but your game has toadapt to somebody else's game
the person you're going to playwith so you use that time to get
information.
So now, when you go to yourseat just before you're going to
hit your first serve or theother guys are going to hit
their first serve, you alreadyhave a strategy right, and so
(10:07):
I've seen how this guy hit hispoint in backhand.
I think that's his weak side,so I'm going to test that.
Maybe for the first game youplay, the guy proves you wrong.
Okay, maybe it's the other wayaround.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Let's try this a match is, in other words, you're
very focused on what you'redoing at the moment and that in
and of itself is is pushing thebugaboos away.
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That's right, because yeah, because if you're in the
moment and you have tasks, right, that's being like oh, I was
talking about his backhand.
It's pretty strong.
Maybe I should try this one.
That's something that you'replanning to do, as opposed to oh
my God, what am I going to doabout this guy's backhand?
It's much better than I thoughtyou see.
So you're taking informationand you're processing it.
(10:50):
You might lose the first setand end up winning the match
pretty easily, because you'retaking information and it's a
martial arts technique.
The great martial artists usedto say whenever I face an
opponent, I always lose thefirst time because I'm taking
information about how thisperson fights.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Interesting, but either way, however you're doing
this.
I think this applies to anysituation where you might feel
performance anxiety.
Be present in the moment.
Find focus on what your task is.
It's going to help you get yourbrain cleared out and empty
that mind.
So, that's really important.
Now.
As for opera singers, I knowthat they have to do all kinds
(11:28):
of warm-ups to get their voicein shape before they perform.
Are there any specific warm-uptechniques that you tell your
students to do that will helpthem calm nerves.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
We always begin with breathing, first and foremost,
we do breathing exercises.
Become conscious of your breath, right.
So you breathe in, you breatheout, that's all there is One.
Breathe in, breathe out.
One Breathe in, breathe out.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
It's not two, three, four, it's just being conscious
of how your body is moving Nowlet me ask you, because I talk
about breathing in my thingabout breathing in through the
nose and out through the lips.
You know we often make fun ofthat, but there's a reason for
that, because breathing inthrough your nose kind of forces
you naturally to breathe fromthe diaphragm rather than the
lungs, which gets more oxygen inyour body.
(12:12):
Is that what you're doing withthem?
Are they breathing in throughthe nose?
I mean, singers know how to getto their diaphragm easier than
most people, so how do you havethem breathe?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
There are different mindsets about that.
There are moments where youdon't have enough time to
breathe through your nose, thatyou have to breathe through your
mouth, especially in a veryquick breath and a very fast
music, for example.
But in general, when you can,yes, breathe through your nose,
and there are lots of reasonsfor that yes, just the
resistance of the airstream fromthe air passage of the nose,
which is tighter, creates anincrease in how the diaphragm
(12:50):
works to have air come in.
So your body engages much morestrongly Like sometimes I have a
singer do this which is anotherway of getting the whole
process of the entire bodyengaging to get air in All right
.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
So let's shift to tennis then.
Before a match, I imaginethere's some breathing involved
too, but what other techniquesdo you recommend to tennis
players to stay calm before theyhave to go out into the storm?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Right, so we started with.
Okay.
So then you are about to stepinto the court.
Hopefully you've taken sometime to warm up before your time
to warm up with your opponent,because that's different.
You need to be in shape forwhat the match begins.
When it's such a warm up right,strategy, mentality, how you
(13:40):
greet your opponent, all ofthese kinds of things work into
the match, right, and I oftensay, after you've done the
exercises that you need to do toget your body prepared, that
you warmed up, you've stretched,you've hit a few balls,
whatever breathing I take thatfrom Djokovic and it's extremely
(14:02):
important.
I say sit down for a second,close your eyes and just breathe
in, breathe out, and see whatit feels like to be really calm,
because the hardest part abouttennis is when you have, for
example, a long rally, youbetween you and your partner,
you get 42 balls, you're runningaround and as you're running,
(14:25):
you're graduallyhyperventilating, right, so you
need to find a way to take airin to prevent yourself from
losing oxygen in the brain.
That way, you stay clear andyou stay focused on what you're
doing.
Most of what you're doing isgoing to be almost reactionary,
right, the thing is going soquickly that you're going to
make the right choices andtactics.
(14:46):
If you are breathing and yourbrain has enough oxygen, it's
that simple, so that's whybreathing is so crucial.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Now you were talking a minute about, you know,
getting your focus on the momentand so you're not focusing on
your nerves and all that.
But let's take that same ideain terms of turning fear,
turning away from fear andmaking enjoyment, because I
think we're you know, it seemswe're better, you're be better,
you're better opera singer,better tennis player if you're
having fun doing it and it's notlike it's not like a oppressive
(15:25):
, you know thing you've got toconstantly work through.
So, in that same vein of how toclear your mind and focus on
being in the moment, how do youshift your focus from fear
towards enjoyment?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That's a very great question.
I wish I had the perfect answerfor that, but it's memory.
It's a memory of what it feelslike to enjoy the game.
I mean, I play pretty muchevery day with friends and I
enjoy it.
And my best tennis is when I'mplaying with my friends.
I mean, I've played with a27-year-old who was a young
(15:59):
professional and we end upsplitting sets.
I'm 59 years old and the kidasked me how old are you?
He couldn't believe that I wasas old, as I was running around
the world, but I was just havingfun.
But then I went to a tournamentnot too long after.
I started to concentrate onwinning the match and I ended up
losing Right.
So what I've learned from thatis that match at home with my
(16:23):
friends or a match in atournament, if I'm not having
fun, it's not worth it, becausethe pros tell you the same thing
.
If they're having a good timeout there, they tend to make the
right choice, so it seemsbackwards, but if you want to
win the match, you'reconcentrating on winning the
match.
Concentration, just enjoyingthe point.
You know, the most famousplayer in the world right now is
(16:44):
this young spanish guy namedcarlos alcaraz uh, who has the
biggest smile on his face allthe time, and everybody loves
him because he smiles, becausehe's trying to enjoy it.
If he has a day when he's notenjoying it, it's visible like
it's kind of serious.
We know he's gonna lose, youknow, and it's really much that
is.
(17:05):
Don't forget why you're doingthis.
Professional singers or tennisplayers go through the same
exact thing.
They're kind of such a well,you know, I have to win this
match because that's my salaryfor this week, that's my salary,
that's how I'm going to pay mycoach.
And they are very specific andit's not very different.
I had my first voice lesson andmy first tennis lesson the same
(17:26):
day.
I was 15.
And so those two things havebeen fused for a long time and I
didn't know why, but they're sosimilar in a way.
You know, top opera singers arefew.
The very top people are few,and they're going to be
millionaires.
They're going to make lots ofmoney.
Don't worry about that so much.
They can try to enjoy, you know, as much as they can.
(17:48):
But they have their problemstoo.
There's expectation and allthat, but the people under that
top layer, they have to make aliving and there are people now
who are taking three buses toget to a tournament, you know,
just to make money for this weekto pay the rent.
We don't know that side ofprofessional tennis and that
(18:11):
breeds anxiety.
Those players who are playingwhat are called challenges.
If you haven't seen the moviewith Zendaya, which is a very
interesting movie, quite true tolife, you know these people who
are like number 1,000 in theworld and they're professional
and they're playing these lowertournaments, who just pay the
(18:31):
rent, you know you know yeahsame thing in professional golf.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I knew a couple guys who are?
In professional golf who didn'tmake it but were in it for
years, and that's a tough lifeman.
They didn't make a lot of moneyand they're staying in the
worst hotels, you know, yeah,yeah exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
and then you have to go play against somebody you
know staying in a luxury hotelwho's got three coaches, a
physio and all kinds of stuff,and you don't.
You're traveling alone.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Right, yeah, the thing happens to a singer who is
presenting themselves to anaudition or going to do a gig
and they have a day job foreight hours and then they have
to take, you know, two trainsand a bus and a taxi to get to
this gig.
They arrive, and a bus and ataxi to get to this gig.
They arrive, they're tired.
Meanwhile their colleagues whoare singing in this gig are at a
higher echelon and they looklike they're having the best
(19:17):
time of their lives.
So all of these things playinto the singer's mind, or the
musician's mind, or the actor'smind or whatever, or the
executive or the secretary.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
You know there is expectation, yeah, and I think
what you're you know there isexpectation, yeah, and I think
what you're saying is that thereis, and it's interesting you
bring this up, because stressand anxiety that might be you
might think of it as performanceAnxiety can also come from
other places, other otherelements in your life.
We're going to talk, we'regoing to take a quick break and
that's going to be a great placeto pick up, because I want to
(19:51):
talk about how we deal withanxiety on a daily basis, or
what things we can do on a dailybasis that will add to our
armor against anxiety when itreally kicks in.
So we're going to do that injust a minute, but first a quick
break.
Hang tight, a quick break.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
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(20:31):
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Speaker 1 (20:59):
Okay.
So right before the break, DrLaFond brought up an interesting
issue about outside stressorsthat affect you in your
performance, and anybody in anyjob really.
But you know, since we'refocusing on performance anxiety,
specifically these outsidestressors and I talked about
this in my first show on thistopic and I've talked about it
(21:19):
in other shows on other topicsthat we do have some things we
can do daily that we canincorporate regularly into our
life, our lives, that help us uh, you know, fight against
overwhelming stress and anxietywhen it kicks in.
And of course I talked abouteverybody's sick of hearing it.
(21:40):
But exercise, sleep and healthydiet right, Everybody's sick of
hearing that because we saythat with everything, but
there's a reason, because thosethings really make a difference.
I find if I'm exercisingregularly, I sleep better.
You know what I mean.
And if I eat more healthy, Ifeel better when I'm exercising.
I mean, it's a cycle, right,it's a circle, it's a cycle,
absolutely.
(22:01):
Aside from exercise and sleepand good diet, which we talk
about all the time, are therespecific daily habits or
routines that you recommend toyour students to manage anxiety,
in terms of a consistent way tomanage it?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Absolutely.
I mean one of the ways that Ideal with things, because I mean
being essentially aprofessional voice teacher.
I find myself in the flow ofvoice teaching.
I've been doing it for about 40years now, from teaching very
young people to teaching topprofessionals, and I've gotten
to a point where it's very hardfor me to remember in the last
couple of years when I've had abad voice lesson.
(22:40):
Right, because it's something Iknow really well and I interact
with new students in a way muchbetter now than I did before.
So that's a flow.
So one of the things that takesstress out of me is the lessons
I teach.
That's one, but that's notgonna help a lot of people.
What I find helps a lot issomething that I've been doing
(23:04):
since I started martial artspersonally.
For me is Tai Chi meditation.
So a Tai Chi meditation can bedone still, or it can be done in
movement.
That's for me, that's somethingthat I do.
If you're interested in that,you can go and find a wonderful
Tai Chi Kung Fu teacher.
I know a few.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And I mentioned in my show.
One of the tips was meditation,and it's not something that I'm
into, but a lot of people Iknow that are into it.
The one thing that I can sayseems to be a common thread is
that they're pretty calm ingeneral.
People that do meditation on adaily basis have a certain
calmness to them in general.
So, yeah, I think that's areally potent tool for fighting
(23:41):
anxiety, right, and there aredifferent kinds of meditation.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I mentioned touch meditation.
That's for me because that'ssomething I do, that's something
I practice, right?
I find tennis to be meditativebecause I enjoy it so much and I
don't put any stress on it.
I've stopped stressing myselfabout the tournament, but with
the tournament it's aboutmeeting new people, having fun,
so I've taken the stresses off.
I play better at tournamentsnow, so it can be anything.
(24:04):
It can be absolutely anythingthat you enjoy.
Some people run.
I live not very far away fromthe sea.
One of the ways I meditate,when I don't do necessarily
Tachi meditation, I take a walkby the sea.
Like you said, I was born bythe beach.
I'm pretty much the samedistance from the beach right
now than I was when I was a kidin Haiti.
(24:25):
It's literally a 10 minute walkand I'm in front of the
Mediterranean.
Nice and that nothing calls me,calms me more than that.
Right, so that's a meditationin itself.
I go to the tennis court via mywalk in front of the ocean and
then, when I arrive at the club,I am ready to have a good time,
(24:47):
you know.
So there are so many ways.
The other thing I'd say andagain from life experience.
I guess.
Get rid of anything that youdon't need in your life that
causes you stress right Likewhat?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Can you give us an example?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh sure, it can be someone who claims to be your
friend but gives you more stressthan they give you good
feelings.
Right, Life is about theprocessing of energy and you
have to surround yourself withelements that fill your day.
And it may sound a bit selfish,but it's not.
(25:28):
You know, we tend to.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Go ahead.
No, I was going to say what abrilliant thing to say.
Life is about the process ofenergy.
That's what you just said.
I've never thought of it thatway.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
That's wow, I gotta, I'm gonna folks think on that
one.
I'm gonna think on it too,because that's brilliant.
We often hold on to thingsbecause we think they're
absolutely necessary.
You know, I'll give you a verysimple example radical.
I've been on Facebook since itcame out in 2004.
So that's 20 years.
I've had my business profilebased on Facebook.
(26:04):
I've met friends on Facebookthat I haven't seen forever.
So Facebook became this thingthat I felt was just a part of
my life.
But over the past few months Irealized that Facebook has been
causing me more stress thananything, because it's an
environment where you're notnecessarily going to find
yourself having good debateswith people.
(26:27):
Like you know, I can sit downwith somebody who has a
completely different politicalpoint of view than me.
We communicate, we express ourdifferences and while we're
having a beer together you knowit's not a big deal, we're not
going to agree on every singlething, but you can have that
talk and hopefully, at the endof a debate like that, you both
(26:49):
come out a little bit moreinformed.
And it depends on yourfriendship.
I have friends who arediametrically opposed to me in
terms of politics, but we'rereally friends.
I don't get rid of those peoplebecause I know I can have a
talk with them and we come outlearning.
But I came to realize thatFacebook was a very stressful
(27:10):
energy in my life and I thought,well, okay, goodbye Facebook.
So I have deleted my Facebookaccount.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I did this a year ago and I want to tell you you're
going to be really happy aboutthat.
I mean, I'm back on socialmedia because I have my coaching
business now and and it's agreat way to communicate with
people, but I got back onreluctantly because I did get.
I found the exact sameexperience from Facebook.
It was great for me to connectwith old friends, uh, but it got
(27:37):
to a point where it was justtoo stressful, and I think
social media in general hasempowered people to be able to
speak up in ways they couldn'tbefore.
But unfortunately, the darkersides of human nature has caused
social media to create a lot ofangry people who can quietly
(27:59):
sit in their house and say thekind of shit you would never say
to somebody to their face, andit can be.
It's very destructive and Ithink we know we all know this
we all know why.
I don't even know why we stilldebate this.
We all know this and I wish wecould just calm that, ramp that
down.
But I think it's Absolutely, butsome people feel empowered by
having a platform of some kindeven though there's a bunch of
(28:23):
people that Well, but I thinkyour point here, which is the
one to really drill home, isthat if you're gonna incorporate
daily routines into your lifethat you're doing consciously to
help you handle stress andanxiety better, shed the things
that are causing stress.
Shed the things you can shedthat are causing.
There's always going to be somethings that cause stress that
(28:44):
you still have to deal with.
But you can take an inventoryof your life.
You can sit back, spend a halfan hour, an hour, and think
through what's unnecessary butgiving me a lot of stress and
shed it.
I think that's really superbadvice.
Let's go to your personalanecdotes, because I told you I
wanted to hear if you had anypersonal anecdotes or lessons
(29:06):
from your own experience withperformance anxiety.
You've given a few, but I'mwondering if you have any more
that you want to share.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Well, I'm going to tell you one that is pretty fun.
I kind of alluded to it.
I did a production of Tosca afew years ago when I was in
Sweden and I was supposed tosing the tenor role, because I
transitioned to tenor about 15years ago, as you know, and it
(29:34):
was the first time I was doingthis role, and it's a tough one.
It's one that requires greatstrength and stuff that I was
building up to.
But I was putting the work inand this was for this little
festival that I ran over thereand I had invited a colleague to
come and direct the show.
I had this baritone from theMet that I worked with years ago
(29:58):
to come and do this show withus, and so rehearsals were set
and everything, and the directorthat I had engaged wrote to me
two days before we startedrehearsals and told me that he
was at this other festival andhe did a vacation, so he wasn't
(30:20):
going to be able to arrive foranother week and a half, so I
had to direct the show myself,uh, thinking that when the guy
comes in I'd have the bare bonesset up, then he'd take over
from there.
But he arrived and said well,you've done a pretty good job.
I don't want to interfere withwhat you're doing.
You don't need me.
The thing became a verystressful situation where I was
(30:44):
directing the show, running thefestival and singing the lead
tenor role oh man, the role thatI was doing for the first time.
So there are so many storiesthat happened with Tosca I.
There are so many stories thathappened with Tosca.
There's a whole book ofanecdotes that happened in Tosca
that will make you laugh fromnow until next week.
Well, there's a point in theshow in the second act, when my
(31:06):
character comes in, has aconfrontation with the baritone
and then he's taken out of theroom to be tortured by two
people.
Well, these two guys were notsingers, they were extras whose
jobs were basically they show upon stage at a certain time and
they'd take me off at a certaintime.
Well, those guys decided to gooff at some point before I'm
(31:31):
supposed to be taken off.
They just walked off stage.
So now I'm on stage, I'msupposed to be taken off and
we're trying to figure out how Iget off stage to be tortured.
So I did this.
I got totally panicked.
That was about half a minutethere and I'm thinking like oh
my God, what am I going to do?
And the baritone, who knows theshow as well as looking at me?
(31:55):
Dude, what's going to happen?
So what happened is that Ijumped at the baritone, who is
the villain, and I grabbed himby the scruff of his costume and
kind of pushed and pulledagainst him and I forced myself
to fall on the ground.
And there's this general chaoson stage.
(32:15):
The soprano's running aroundtrying to figure out what's
going on.
Meanwhile I'm crawling offstage while the music but ended
up in the torture room anyway.
But it was a bizarre.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Did that affect the rest of your performance that
day?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
oh no, actually it could have, because in that
moment, absolute panic Because Ihad no idea what was going to
happen after that, because if Idon't get off stage, the rest of
the story doesn't work.
I was just trying to figure outhow to get myself off stage,
but here's the thing the panicdid happen.
(32:53):
Absolute dread happened thatmoment.
I was deer, in the headlights,I think, for about half a minute
.
All you can see me still onstage trying to figure out what
to do.
But because I was prepared, Ifigured out something absolutely
nuts and crazy to do.
The audience didn't figure itout.
Maybe a few people who know theopera very well probably
laughed a little bit in theirprograms because they knew
(33:16):
something weird had happenedover there.
But I managed to get it off andwe continued the performance
and it went fine.
But that was the woman of dread.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I'm sure I bet in the performing arts.
I can just imagine there'smillions of stories like that.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I have one more that is not as positive as that and
it was just before I realized Iwas a tenor.
It was a period when my voicestarted to crack a little bit.
I was doing a performance ofTraviata and I walked in for the
first rehearsal and my entranceand my voice just went like
(33:56):
that.
You know I was supposed to sing.
And it went entrance and myvoice just went like that.
You know I was supposed to singmadame jenna, love our lady.
And he went.
Madame jenna, love our lady, myvoice just, oh man, the
falsetto man.
I laughed, you know, as I guys.
I just came from the street.
I have to go warm up a littlebit.
Everything will be fine.
I spend the next few weekskeeping my voice from flipping
out like that.
Well, performances went fine.
(34:16):
It never flipped in performance.
And two weeks later I had aperformance.
A conductor, friend of mine, puta program together for me of
stuff that I had done a lotVaughan Williams' Five Mystical
Songs, duru Flair, requiem Aprogram specifically for me.
I walked into the firstrehearsal and it's as if my
throat was just tied in knots.
(34:38):
I had no idea what happened.
Oh boy, I admitted to the firstrehearsal and it's as if my
throat was just tied in knots.
I had no idea what happened.
Oh boy, I admitted to therehearsal, said everything, and
the conductor came to me and shesaid are you okay?
You sound a little bit huskytoday.
I said yeah, I don't know ifit's allergies or something.
You know.
I got into the performance daythe first night.
I knew that one of my greatmentors, great conductor from
(35:03):
Westminster Choir College, a guynamed Joseph Flummerfelt, was
in the audience that day and soI wanted to do.
Well, I literally the feelingwas like I was on stage and
flames just came up and I wasjust going to go down.
That was the sensation.
That's what you felt like.
(35:23):
That's what I felt, like thewhole performance was like.
I stuck it out, I did theperformance, I did what I could,
but I felt horrible.
I felt like my voice wasn'tworking, something was wrong.
But if you look at my face youwould know it, because I just
was stoic, I just went throughit, did everything, went off,
(35:45):
took my applause which I can'teven remember what it was,
because all I could feel wasflames Went to my dressing room,
felt awful, because I know itwasn't a good performance, and
this conductor came to me andshe said you know, I adore you
and that's why I put thisprogram together for you, but
something is not right with yourvoice.
You should check it out.
I've gotten somebody else to dothe second show.
(36:08):
I've never been fired from ashow in my entire life.
It was the first time ever, butI figured she was right.
And then, two months later, Iwas warming up in France for a
master class and it became veryclear to me I was a tenor and
that was a problem, and soanxiety at that point was
because something wasfundamentally wrong.
(36:28):
I didn't know what it was, andthat's what I meant.
Very often you panic becausesomething's happening wrong and
you have no idea what it is.
From one day to the next,you're doing great and then
suddenly you have no idea whatit is.
From one day to the next,you're doing great, and then
suddenly you have no.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Just real quick in that instance.
So you decide that youdiscovered that, that the
anxiety came from the fact thatyou were no longer a baritone,
you were a tenor, and you had tofind that out.
You know, through through, youknow, almost tripping over it,
basically, yeah.
Did that, that experience,though being fired did that
cause any scar tissue?
What you've been talking aboutin terms of you know, memories
(37:05):
that have affected you in futureperformances, or was just the
realization that you're a tenor,not a baritone, enough to sweep
that?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
away.
That was enough, because thatexplained it.
Then I realized, well, I didn'tmess up, you know, it was just
that.
I mean, this is one of the hardthings you know about being a
singer is that voices areextremely complex things and you
can spend a lifetime trying tofigure out what is your nature,
right?
(37:30):
I mean, in classical singing,you're called a voice type,
you're called a bass, you'recalled a baritone, you're called
this Very often.
You're trying everything youcall the baritone, you call this
very often.
You're trying everything youcan to fill those shoes, so you
don't know that you're actuallyproducing sounds that fulfill
what you're told you are asopposed to discovering your true
(37:51):
nature, and that's somethingthat takes time and and schools
often, uh, I mean I I think Ihad a teacher probably knew what
I was, but didn't want to takethe responsibility of going to
that change because it's not aneasy thing to do.
I was being successful atbaritone, so just leave it alone
, right?
Uh, I get that, but uh, and itdid take me quite a long time to
(38:13):
actually master my voice againas a tenor.
I'm glad I did it.
Uh, I didn't back away from it.
I was like that's information.
I am a tenor.
I'm glad I did it.
I didn't back away from it.
That's information.
I am a tenor, so that's whatI'm going to do and I'm a very
happy singer and I'm singingtenor now.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
He's a very happy singer everybody and I love
hearing that.
Ron, I can't thank you enoughfor these two episodes because I
think you've given us a lot ofinformation about how to
confront performance anxiety,what to look for, what to think
about doing, and I think all ofthe things you've said can
transfer over to the personwho's having performance anxiety
because they got to give atoast at the wedding this
weekend.
(38:46):
You know all those things willhelp.
So I want to thank you so muchfor taking the time to do these
two shows.
Coming all the way from Spainto do these, he didn't fly out.
We're doing this over Zoom, butI want to thank you for that
and I really wish you the best,ron.
Thanks for being on.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Thank you so much.
Same to you, my friend.
I enjoy these interviews somuch because you're such a
natural at this.
I feel like I'm beinginterviewed by Larry King or
somebody.
It flows so easily.
That's not always the case.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I can tell you that I've done tons of interviews and
it's not all the time that youget somebody that you feel like
you're in the flow, in the zone,as we say in tennis.
Well, I really appreciate thatand and you know, a lot of that,
I think, comes from uh, as acoach, you know really learning
how to listen.
That's the key as a coachreally being present and
(39:33):
listening without thinking aboutwhat you're going to say next
and all the stuff that wetypically do as people.
But that's really nice of youto say and I can't thank you
enough.
So, if you've enjoyed listeningto the show, thank you all for
tuning in.
If you've enjoyed listening,please hit that subscribe or
like button so that you can findout when I drop new episodes,
and I've been saying this a lotlately.
If you have an idea for a topicyou'd like me to cover, I'd love
(39:56):
to hear from you.
Email me.
It's matt atmattbrookscoachingcom.
That's simple Matt atmattbrookscoachingcom and two Ts
in Matt, by the way.
But shoot me an idea.
I'd love to hear from you andif it's something that I can
pull off or feel good about, Iwill absolutely do it.
So thanks for listening andplease tune in.
(40:19):
Next week I'm going topiggyback this series on
performance anxiety, with oneepisode about fear of failure,
because fear of fear of failureis very similar to performance
anxiety.
So that's what I'm going to donext week.
Meanwhile, thanks again forlistening.
Be well, and I'll catch younext time on the Barrier Busting
Podcast.
Podcast.
Are you feeling stuck , trapped by barriers holding
you back from reaching your fullpotential?
Well, let's bust through thosebarriers so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
passionate about helping peopleovercome barriers to achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:35):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your true potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Okay, everybody, welcome back.
I am very happy to have my guestfrom last week back this week,
(00:58):
if you weren't listening.
My guest is Dr Jean-Ron LaFond.
He spent his life in the operaand theater world.
He was an opera singer and nowis a teacher all over the world.
I'll read what his backgroundis.
He's also we call him Ron,those of us who know him, but he
has both a master's anddoctorate from the University of
Michigan and a bachelor'sdegree from the famous
(01:19):
Westminster Choir College.
Having performed over 40operatic roles as a baritone and
given at least as manyperformances of oratorio solos,
he has also presented over 400recitals.
In his prestigious career, he'sworked as a stage director and
also as an experienced theateractor.
Throughout his career as aperformer, dr Lafon maintained a
(01:41):
strong presence as a teacherand mentor.
He has taught at the Universityof Florida, east Carolina
University, the University ofDelaware and Westminster Choir
College.
Ron currently works as afreelance teacher, regularly
presenting masterclasses allover the world, as well as
private study all over the world, and he's developed his own
philosophy for teaching singersthat incorporates principles
(02:03):
from both vocal science andmartial arts, which I think is
really fascinating.
Ron, welcome back to the show.
It's good to have you again.
Thanks for doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Thanks, man Pleasure.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
We were talking about the root causes of performance
anxiety the last time, and Iwant to take that to another
level in terms now of copingmechanisms and strategies for
coping with performance anxiety,and I want to remind the
listeners that my first show ofthis series was on performance
anxiety in general, the kind weall feel.
You don't have to be aprofessional performer to
(02:35):
experience this.
You might need to give a toastat a wedding or give a
presentation at work or churchor something, and you suddenly
go through performance anxiety.
If you listen to the firstepisode I did on this, there's a
bunch of tips as to how to dealwith that, but we're going to
talk more.
We've been talking about howprofessional performers deal
with it, because I think there'sa lot to learn from that.
(02:55):
So, ron, let's.
We talked about performanceanxiety and how it, you know,
comes up, and a lot of timesit's this what you called, in
tennis, scar tissue, which isreally memories of when things
went wrong, and I mentioned thatanxiety is often caused by fear
of anxiety.
That's pretty common.
What strategies do yourecommend for your students for
(03:16):
managing performance anxietybefore stepping out on stage?
And then we'll come back to thesame question and talk about it
before stepping out on thetennis court, because, I should
mention for anybody who didn'tlisten last week, ron is also a
lifelong, serious tennis player,like a real, the real deal, and
so he can speak both from themusical perspective and the
performing arts perspective andthe sports perspective.
(03:38):
So again, ron, what strategiesdo you recommend for managing
performance anxiety beforestepping on stage?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Just like anything else, preparation is the most
important thing.
You have to know your materialbackwards and forwards such that
you can be in a place where, ifthings go a little bit awry
which they often do you have thepresence of mind to be able to
adapt.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
It's kind of like a muscle memory, right.
It's kind of like if you'rereally well prepared.
I talked about this in my show.
You create a kind of musclememory that will save your butt
in those moments.
Right, that's it.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I mean, I'm working with a tenor right now on a role
that's coming up, verydifficult role, and we've spent
the last year and a half workingon this role because it's a
role that is a bit beyond whatis done up to this point.
I received a text message fromhim just today where he said,
(04:39):
quote where is it?
Yeah, I'm feeling way moreconfident for next week, which
is something else he has to do.
Yeah, he said it in a verywonderful way that he's, that
(04:59):
he's been thinking aboutsomething.
And where did he say yeah,there it is.
I've been doing uh, I've donethis.
I tested a little bit todayanyway, just to see the
contemplating I've been doingabout separating head and chest
voices.
But this specific has marinatedand the idea is that he's been
thinking about these conceptsthat we've been talking about,
(05:21):
thinking about them, justimagining them just in his
thoughts how does it feel tofeel the separation of these two
elements?
And he said he was wondering ifthose thoughts had marinated
into actual physical experience.
And he sang and he sent me acouple of uh recordings and it's
extraordinary the growth thathe's made.
He's made that step into afeeling like, okay, my body has
(05:43):
absorbed this now.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Isn't that wonderful.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, it's incredible , I mean, and for this to work,
I mean, this is a thing I'veworked with for 14 years and we
have this back and forth goingon where it's his process that
I'm guiding him through.
But we have this back and forthand so that sensation of it's
internalized, it's physically,uh, muscle memory now.
(06:08):
So and that means that the actof singing is physical memory,
the act of moving on stage, ofacting, is physical memory.
The, the music itself is, is,is physical memory.
The text, the expression, allof that is already prepared.
Great singers do that.
(06:28):
They are absolutely perfectlyprepared, because when they go
in they're going to meet withother elements and then they
have to be able to navigate that.
So they cannot be worried aboutwhether or not their voices can
do the job.
They can't be worried aboutwhether or not their memory of
the text is a problem.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
So, first and foremost, preparation yeah, I
had a friend in classical musicsay to me that the thing is, you
never know what's going tohappen on stage.
No matter how well everybody'sprepared, things happen in the
audience that you can't expectand they may throw you.
And so being fully preparedisn't just about overcoming
anxiety, it's being able tohandle the unexpected in the
(07:06):
moment.
Is that right?
Has that been your experience?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Oh, absolutely, man.
I could tell you stories ofthings that went totally wrong
on stage, but you find a way tomake it work.
The audience doesn't know.
But when you go backstage andyou and your colleagues are
laughing your asses off becauseit's like how did we get through
that moment?
Right, Right, but that'sbecause what you were supposed
to do on stage was so worked outbetween you all that when
(07:31):
something went way off, we wereable to figure out a way to get
out of that problem in themoment, All right let's shift to
tennis, because you made thepoint last week that I think is
really important.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
The tennis we're talking about it's a solo thing.
It's like a soloist you're onyour own out there and what.
I'm sure there's similar uhissues in terms of being well
prepared, but there's otherthings that can come into one's
head before stepping out onto acourt in a match.
What, what strategies do yourecommend for for people playing
(08:03):
tennis?
To you know, get themselvescalm and focused if they're
experiencing anxiety before amatch.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, you have to have a very clear idea of what
you're doing, what the processis.
When you walk into a tenniscourt, you and your opponent
walk out.
You have a few minutes whereyou warm up together.
Right, this is the moment thatyou get yourself in preparation
mode because you heading backand forth with with uh, your
opponent.
It's, it's.
(08:31):
It's a moment where you'regetting information about how
this person hits the ball.
Uh, what are the tendencies?
You practice volleys.
How do they volley?
Is the backhand good?
Is the forehand?
All of this stuff isinformation.
So, instead of being nervous,you have tasks, very specific
tasks.
Oh, interesting, keep youfocused.
So, during this entire time,that keep you focused, okay.
(08:53):
So I'm hitting the ball backand forth.
If I'm empty-minded, what'sgoing to happen?
I'm going to fill my mind withoh, this guy hits a pretty good
forehand.
What am I going to do aboutthat?
Or maybe he's going to kill me.
That happened to me in onematch where I avoid this guy's
forehand and it wasn't even thatstrong a forehand because I was
told he had a good forehand andI ended up losing that match
(09:13):
and I shouldn't have.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
This is a match I should have won.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, so I never did that again.
So the thing is that ifsomebody has a hand there, let's
see what it does right.
It may be strong, but is itconsistent?
Speaker 1 (09:24):
so this is a version.
This is a version of beingpresent in the moment, which is
one of the tips that I gave inmy show clearing your mind out
and you know.
What are you seeing right now,what are you hearing right now,
what are you feeling right now,what is in the moment?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
to get out of your head, that's exactly what you're
saying here, right?
that's how you prepare, becausethe thing is that your game is
one thing, but your game has toadapt to somebody else's game
the person you're going to playwith so you use that time to get
information.
So now, when you go to yourseat just before you're going to
hit your first serve or theother guys are going to hit
their first serve, you alreadyhave a strategy right, and so
(10:07):
I've seen how this guy hit hispoint in backhand.
I think that's his weak side,so I'm going to test that.
Maybe for the first game youplay, the guy proves you wrong.
Okay, maybe it's the other wayaround.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Let's try this a match is, in other words, you're
very focused on what you'redoing at the moment and that in
and of itself is is pushing thebugaboos away.
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
That's right, because yeah, because if you're in the
moment and you have tasks, right, that's being like oh, I was
talking about his backhand.
It's pretty strong.
Maybe I should try this one.
That's something that you'replanning to do, as opposed to oh
my God, what am I going to doabout this guy's backhand?
It's much better than I thoughtyou see.
So you're taking informationand you're processing it.
(10:50):
You might lose the first setand end up winning the match
pretty easily, because you'retaking information and it's a
martial arts technique.
The great martial artists usedto say whenever I face an
opponent, I always lose thefirst time because I'm taking
information about how thisperson fights.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Interesting, but either way, however you're doing
this.
I think this applies to anysituation where you might feel
performance anxiety.
Be present in the moment.
Find focus on what your task is.
It's going to help you get yourbrain cleared out and empty
that mind.
So, that's really important.
Now.
As for opera singers, I knowthat they have to do all kinds
(11:28):
of warm-ups to get their voicein shape before they perform.
Are there any specific warm-uptechniques that you tell your
students to do that will helpthem calm nerves.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
We always begin with breathing, first and foremost,
we do breathing exercises.
Become conscious of your breath, right.
So you breathe in, you breatheout, that's all there is One.
Breathe in, breathe out.
One Breathe in, breathe out.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
It's not two, three, four, it's just being conscious
of how your body is moving Nowlet me ask you, because I talk
about breathing in my thingabout breathing in through the
nose and out through the lips.
You know we often make fun ofthat, but there's a reason for
that, because breathing inthrough your nose kind of forces
you naturally to breathe fromthe diaphragm rather than the
lungs, which gets more oxygen inyour body.
(12:12):
Is that what you're doing withthem?
Are they breathing in throughthe nose?
I mean, singers know how to getto their diaphragm easier than
most people, so how do you havethem breathe?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
There are different mindsets about that.
There are moments where youdon't have enough time to
breathe through your nose, thatyou have to breathe through your
mouth, especially in a veryquick breath and a very fast
music, for example.
But in general, when you can,yes, breathe through your nose,
and there are lots of reasonsfor that yes, just the
resistance of the airstream fromthe air passage of the nose,
which is tighter, creates anincrease in how the diaphragm
(12:50):
works to have air come in.
So your body engages much morestrongly Like sometimes I have a
singer do this which is anotherway of getting the whole
process of the entire bodyengaging to get air in All right
.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
So let's shift to tennis then.
Before a match, I imaginethere's some breathing involved
too, but what other techniquesdo you recommend to tennis
players to stay calm before theyhave to go out into the storm?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Right, so we started with.
Okay.
So then you are about to stepinto the court.
Hopefully you've taken sometime to warm up before your time
to warm up with your opponent,because that's different.
You need to be in shape forwhat the match begins.
When it's such a warm up right,strategy, mentality, how you
(13:40):
greet your opponent, all ofthese kinds of things work into
the match, right, and I oftensay, after you've done the
exercises that you need to do toget your body prepared, that
you warmed up, you've stretched,you've hit a few balls,
whatever breathing I take thatfrom Djokovic and it's extremely
(14:02):
important.
I say sit down for a second,close your eyes and just breathe
in, breathe out, and see whatit feels like to be really calm,
because the hardest part abouttennis is when you have, for
example, a long rally, youbetween you and your partner,
you get 42 balls, you're runningaround and as you're running,
(14:25):
you're graduallyhyperventilating, right, so you
need to find a way to take airin to prevent yourself from
losing oxygen in the brain.
That way, you stay clear andyou stay focused on what you're
doing.
Most of what you're doing isgoing to be almost reactionary,
right, the thing is going soquickly that you're going to
make the right choices andtactics.
(14:46):
If you are breathing and yourbrain has enough oxygen, it's
that simple, so that's whybreathing is so crucial.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Now you were talking a minute about, you know,
getting your focus on the momentand so you're not focusing on
your nerves and all that.
But let's take that same ideain terms of turning fear,
turning away from fear andmaking enjoyment, because I
think we're you know, it seemswe're better, you're be better,
you're better opera singer,better tennis player if you're
having fun doing it and it's notlike it's not like a oppressive
(15:25):
, you know thing you've got toconstantly work through.
So, in that same vein of how toclear your mind and focus on
being in the moment, how do youshift your focus from fear
towards enjoyment?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That's a very great question.
I wish I had the perfect answerfor that, but it's memory.
It's a memory of what it feelslike to enjoy the game.
I mean, I play pretty muchevery day with friends and I
enjoy it.
And my best tennis is when I'mplaying with my friends.
I mean, I've played with a27-year-old who was a young
(15:59):
professional and we end upsplitting sets.
I'm 59 years old and the kidasked me how old are you?
He couldn't believe that I wasas old, as I was running around
the world, but I was just havingfun.
But then I went to a tournamentnot too long after.
I started to concentrate onwinning the match and I ended up
losing Right.
So what I've learned from thatis that match at home with my
(16:23):
friends or a match in atournament, if I'm not having
fun, it's not worth it, becausethe pros tell you the same thing
.
If they're having a good timeout there, they tend to make the
right choice, so it seemsbackwards, but if you want to
win the match, you'reconcentrating on winning the
match.
Concentration, just enjoyingthe point.
You know, the most famousplayer in the world right now is
(16:44):
this young spanish guy namedcarlos alcaraz uh, who has the
biggest smile on his face allthe time, and everybody loves
him because he smiles, becausehe's trying to enjoy it.
If he has a day when he's notenjoying it, it's visible like
it's kind of serious.
We know he's gonna lose, youknow, and it's really much that
is.
(17:05):
Don't forget why you're doingthis.
Professional singers or tennisplayers go through the same
exact thing.
They're kind of such a well,you know, I have to win this
match because that's my salaryfor this week, that's my salary,
that's how I'm going to pay mycoach.
And they are very specific andit's not very different.
I had my first voice lesson andmy first tennis lesson the same
(17:26):
day.
I was 15.
And so those two things havebeen fused for a long time and I
didn't know why, but they're sosimilar in a way.
You know, top opera singers arefew.
The very top people are few,and they're going to be
millionaires.
They're going to make lots ofmoney.
Don't worry about that so much.
They can try to enjoy, you know, as much as they can.
(17:48):
But they have their problemstoo.
There's expectation and allthat, but the people under that
top layer, they have to make aliving and there are people now
who are taking three buses toget to a tournament, you know,
just to make money for this weekto pay the rent.
We don't know that side ofprofessional tennis and that
(18:11):
breeds anxiety.
Those players who are playingwhat are called challenges.
If you haven't seen the moviewith Zendaya, which is a very
interesting movie, quite true tolife, you know these people who
are like number 1,000 in theworld and they're professional
and they're playing these lowertournaments, who just pay the
(18:31):
rent, you know you know yeahsame thing in professional golf.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I knew a couple guys who are?
In professional golf who didn'tmake it but were in it for
years, and that's a tough lifeman.
They didn't make a lot of moneyand they're staying in the
worst hotels, you know, yeah,yeah exactly the same.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
and then you have to go play against somebody you
know staying in a luxury hotelwho's got three coaches, a
physio and all kinds of stuff,and you don't.
You're traveling alone.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Right, yeah, the thing happens to a singer who is
presenting themselves to anaudition or going to do a gig
and they have a day job foreight hours and then they have
to take, you know, two trainsand a bus and a taxi to get to
this gig.
They arrive, and a bus and ataxi to get to this gig.
They arrive, they're tired.
Meanwhile their colleagues whoare singing in this gig are at a
higher echelon and they looklike they're having the best
(19:17):
time of their lives.
So all of these things playinto the singer's mind, or the
musician's mind, or the actor'smind or whatever, or the
executive or the secretary.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
You know there is expectation, yeah, and I think
what you're you know there isexpectation, yeah, and I think
what you're saying is that thereis, and it's interesting you
bring this up, because stressand anxiety that might be you
might think of it as performanceAnxiety can also come from
other places, other otherelements in your life.
We're going to talk, we'regoing to take a quick break and
that's going to be a great placeto pick up, because I want to
(19:51):
talk about how we deal withanxiety on a daily basis, or
what things we can do on a dailybasis that will add to our
armor against anxiety when itreally kicks in.
So we're going to do that injust a minute, but first a quick
break.
Hang tight, a quick break.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Hang tight, feeling overwhelmed, struggling to find
balance in your daily life.
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, mattBrooks offers personalized
(20:31):
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace, matt is here to be your
partner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Okay.
So right before the break, DrLaFond brought up an interesting
issue about outside stressorsthat affect you in your
performance, and anybody in anyjob really.
But you know, since we'refocusing on performance anxiety,
specifically these outsidestressors and I talked about
this in my first show on thistopic and I've talked about it
(21:19):
in other shows on other topicsthat we do have some things we
can do daily that we canincorporate regularly into our
life, our lives, that help us uh, you know, fight against
overwhelming stress and anxietywhen it kicks in.
And of course I talked abouteverybody's sick of hearing it.
(21:40):
But exercise, sleep and healthydiet right, Everybody's sick of
hearing that because we saythat with everything, but
there's a reason, because thosethings really make a difference.
I find if I'm exercisingregularly, I sleep better.
You know what I mean.
And if I eat more healthy, Ifeel better when I'm exercising.
I mean, it's a cycle, right,it's a circle, it's a cycle,
absolutely.
(22:01):
Aside from exercise and sleepand good diet, which we talk
about all the time, are therespecific daily habits or
routines that you recommend toyour students to manage anxiety,
in terms of a consistent way tomanage it?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Absolutely.
I mean one of the ways that Ideal with things, because I mean
being essentially aprofessional voice teacher.
I find myself in the flow ofvoice teaching.
I've been doing it for about 40years now, from teaching very
young people to teaching topprofessionals, and I've gotten
to a point where it's very hardfor me to remember in the last
couple of years when I've had abad voice lesson.
(22:40):
Right, because it's something Iknow really well and I interact
with new students in a way muchbetter now than I did before.
So that's a flow.
So one of the things that takesstress out of me is the lessons
I teach.
That's one, but that's notgonna help a lot of people.
What I find helps a lot issomething that I've been doing
(23:04):
since I started martial artspersonally.
For me is Tai Chi meditation.
So a Tai Chi meditation can bedone still, or it can be done in
movement.
That's for me, that's somethingthat I do.
If you're interested in that,you can go and find a wonderful
Tai Chi Kung Fu teacher.
I know a few.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
And I mentioned in my show.
One of the tips was meditation,and it's not something that I'm
into, but a lot of people Iknow that are into it.
The one thing that I can sayseems to be a common thread is
that they're pretty calm ingeneral.
People that do meditation on adaily basis have a certain
calmness to them in general.
So, yeah, I think that's areally potent tool for fighting
(23:41):
anxiety, right, and there aredifferent kinds of meditation.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
I mentioned touch meditation.
That's for me because that'ssomething I do, that's something
I practice, right?
I find tennis to be meditativebecause I enjoy it so much and I
don't put any stress on it.
I've stopped stressing myselfabout the tournament, but with
the tournament it's aboutmeeting new people, having fun,
so I've taken the stresses off.
I play better at tournamentsnow, so it can be anything.
(24:04):
It can be absolutely anythingthat you enjoy.
Some people run.
I live not very far away fromthe sea.
One of the ways I meditate,when I don't do necessarily
Tachi meditation, I take a walkby the sea.
Like you said, I was born bythe beach.
I'm pretty much the samedistance from the beach right
now than I was when I was a kidin Haiti.
(24:25):
It's literally a 10 minute walkand I'm in front of the
Mediterranean.
Nice and that nothing calls me,calms me more than that.
Right, so that's a meditationin itself.
I go to the tennis court via mywalk in front of the ocean and
then, when I arrive at the club,I am ready to have a good time,
(24:47):
you know.
So there are so many ways.
The other thing I'd say andagain from life experience.
I guess.
Get rid of anything that youdon't need in your life that
causes you stress right Likewhat?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Can you give us an example?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh sure, it can be someone who claims to be your
friend but gives you more stressthan they give you good
feelings.
Right, Life is about theprocessing of energy and you
have to surround yourself withelements that fill your day.
And it may sound a bit selfish,but it's not.
(25:28):
You know, we tend to.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Go ahead.
No, I was going to say what abrilliant thing to say.
Life is about the process ofenergy.
That's what you just said.
I've never thought of it thatway.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
That's wow, I gotta, I'm gonna folks think on that
one.
I'm gonna think on it too,because that's brilliant.
We often hold on to thingsbecause we think they're
absolutely necessary.
You know, I'll give you a verysimple example radical.
I've been on Facebook since itcame out in 2004.
So that's 20 years.
I've had my business profilebased on Facebook.
(26:04):
I've met friends on Facebookthat I haven't seen forever.
So Facebook became this thingthat I felt was just a part of
my life.
But over the past few months Irealized that Facebook has been
causing me more stress thananything, because it's an
environment where you're notnecessarily going to find
yourself having good debateswith people.
(26:27):
Like you know, I can sit downwith somebody who has a
completely different politicalpoint of view than me.
We communicate, we express ourdifferences and while we're
having a beer together you knowit's not a big deal, we're not
going to agree on every singlething, but you can have that
talk and hopefully, at the endof a debate like that, you both
(26:49):
come out a little bit moreinformed.
And it depends on yourfriendship.
I have friends who arediametrically opposed to me in
terms of politics, but we'rereally friends.
I don't get rid of those peoplebecause I know I can have a
talk with them and we come outlearning.
But I came to realize thatFacebook was a very stressful
(27:10):
energy in my life and I thought,well, okay, goodbye Facebook.
So I have deleted my Facebookaccount.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I did this a year ago and I want to tell you you're
going to be really happy aboutthat.
I mean, I'm back on socialmedia because I have my coaching
business now and and it's agreat way to communicate with
people, but I got back onreluctantly because I did get.
I found the exact sameexperience from Facebook.
It was great for me to connectwith old friends, uh, but it got
(27:37):
to a point where it was justtoo stressful, and I think
social media in general hasempowered people to be able to
speak up in ways they couldn'tbefore.
But unfortunately, the darkersides of human nature has caused
social media to create a lot ofangry people who can quietly
(27:59):
sit in their house and say thekind of shit you would never say
to somebody to their face, andit can be.
It's very destructive and Ithink we know we all know this
we all know why.
I don't even know why we stilldebate this.
We all know this and I wish wecould just calm that, ramp that
down.
But I think it's Absolutely, butsome people feel empowered by
having a platform of some kindeven though there's a bunch of
(28:23):
people that Well, but I thinkyour point here, which is the
one to really drill home, isthat if you're gonna incorporate
daily routines into your lifethat you're doing consciously to
help you handle stress andanxiety better, shed the things
that are causing stress.
Shed the things you can shedthat are causing.
There's always going to be somethings that cause stress that
(28:44):
you still have to deal with.
But you can take an inventoryof your life.
You can sit back, spend a halfan hour, an hour, and think
through what's unnecessary butgiving me a lot of stress and
shed it.
I think that's really superbadvice.
Let's go to your personalanecdotes, because I told you I
wanted to hear if you had anypersonal anecdotes or lessons
(29:06):
from your own experience withperformance anxiety.
You've given a few, but I'mwondering if you have any more
that you want to share.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Well, I'm going to tell you one that is pretty fun.
I kind of alluded to it.
I did a production of Tosca afew years ago when I was in
Sweden and I was supposed tosing the tenor role, because I
transitioned to tenor about 15years ago, as you know, and it
(29:34):
was the first time I was doingthis role, and it's a tough one.
It's one that requires greatstrength and stuff that I was
building up to.
But I was putting the work inand this was for this little
festival that I ran over thereand I had invited a colleague to
come and direct the show.
I had this baritone from theMet that I worked with years ago
(29:58):
to come and do this show withus, and so rehearsals were set
and everything, and the directorthat I had engaged wrote to me
two days before we startedrehearsals and told me that he
was at this other festival andhe did a vacation, so he wasn't
(30:20):
going to be able to arrive foranother week and a half, so I
had to direct the show myself,uh, thinking that when the guy
comes in I'd have the bare bonesset up, then he'd take over
from there.
But he arrived and said well,you've done a pretty good job.
I don't want to interfere withwhat you're doing.
You don't need me.
The thing became a verystressful situation where I was
(30:44):
directing the show, running thefestival and singing the lead
tenor role oh man, the role thatI was doing for the first time.
So there are so many storiesthat happened with Tosca I.
There are so many stories thathappened with Tosca.
There's a whole book ofanecdotes that happened in Tosca
that will make you laugh fromnow until next week.
Well, there's a point in theshow in the second act, when my
(31:06):
character comes in, has aconfrontation with the baritone
and then he's taken out of theroom to be tortured by two
people.
Well, these two guys were notsingers, they were extras whose
jobs were basically they show upon stage at a certain time and
they'd take me off at a certaintime.
Well, those guys decided to gooff at some point before I'm
(31:31):
supposed to be taken off.
They just walked off stage.
So now I'm on stage, I'msupposed to be taken off and
we're trying to figure out how Iget off stage to be tortured.
So I did this.
I got totally panicked.
That was about half a minutethere and I'm thinking like oh
my God, what am I going to do?
And the baritone, who knows theshow as well as looking at me?
(31:55):
Dude, what's going to happen?
So what happened is that Ijumped at the baritone, who is
the villain, and I grabbed himby the scruff of his costume and
kind of pushed and pulledagainst him and I forced myself
to fall on the ground.
And there's this general chaoson stage.
(32:15):
The soprano's running aroundtrying to figure out what's
going on.
Meanwhile I'm crawling offstage while the music but ended
up in the torture room anyway.
But it was a bizarre.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Did that affect the rest of your performance that
day?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
oh no, actually it could have, because in that
moment, absolute panic Because Ihad no idea what was going to
happen after that, because if Idon't get off stage, the rest of
the story doesn't work.
I was just trying to figure outhow to get myself off stage,
but here's the thing the panicdid happen.
(32:53):
Absolute dread happened thatmoment.
I was deer, in the headlights,I think, for about half a minute
.
All you can see me still onstage trying to figure out what
to do.
But because I was prepared, Ifigured out something absolutely
nuts and crazy to do.
The audience didn't figure itout.
Maybe a few people who know theopera very well probably
laughed a little bit in theirprograms because they knew
(33:16):
something weird had happenedover there.
But I managed to get it off andwe continued the performance
and it went fine.
But that was the woman of dread.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
I'm sure I bet in the performing arts.
I can just imagine there'smillions of stories like that.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I have one more that is not as positive as that and
it was just before I realized Iwas a tenor.
It was a period when my voicestarted to crack a little bit.
I was doing a performance ofTraviata and I walked in for the
first rehearsal and my entranceand my voice just went like
(33:56):
that.
You know I was supposed to sing.
And it went entrance and myvoice just went like that.
You know I was supposed to singmadame jenna, love our lady.
And he went.
Madame jenna, love our lady, myvoice just, oh man, the
falsetto man.
I laughed, you know, as I guys.
I just came from the street.
I have to go warm up a littlebit.
Everything will be fine.
I spend the next few weekskeeping my voice from flipping
out like that.
Well, performances went fine.
(34:16):
It never flipped in performance.
And two weeks later I had aperformance.
A conductor, friend of mine, puta program together for me of
stuff that I had done a lotVaughan Williams' Five Mystical
Songs, duru Flair, requiem Aprogram specifically for me.
I walked into the firstrehearsal and it's as if my
throat was just tied in knots.
(34:38):
I had no idea what happened.
Oh boy, I admitted to the firstrehearsal and it's as if my
throat was just tied in knots.
I had no idea what happened.
Oh boy, I admitted to therehearsal, said everything, and
the conductor came to me and shesaid are you okay?
You sound a little bit huskytoday.
I said yeah, I don't know ifit's allergies or something.
You know.
I got into the performance daythe first night.
I knew that one of my greatmentors, great conductor from
(35:03):
Westminster Choir College, a guynamed Joseph Flummerfelt, was
in the audience that day and soI wanted to do.
Well, I literally the feelingwas like I was on stage and
flames just came up and I wasjust going to go down.
That was the sensation.
That's what you felt like.
(35:23):
That's what I felt, like thewhole performance was like.
I stuck it out, I did theperformance, I did what I could,
but I felt horrible.
I felt like my voice wasn'tworking, something was wrong.
But if you look at my face youwould know it, because I just
was stoic, I just went throughit, did everything, went off,
(35:45):
took my applause which I can'teven remember what it was,
because all I could feel wasflames Went to my dressing room,
felt awful, because I know itwasn't a good performance, and
this conductor came to me andshe said you know, I adore you
and that's why I put thisprogram together for you, but
something is not right with yourvoice.
You should check it out.
I've gotten somebody else to dothe second show.
(36:08):
I've never been fired from ashow in my entire life.
It was the first time ever, butI figured she was right.
And then, two months later, Iwas warming up in France for a
master class and it became veryclear to me I was a tenor and
that was a problem, and soanxiety at that point was
because something wasfundamentally wrong.
(36:28):
I didn't know what it was, andthat's what I meant.
Very often you panic becausesomething's happening wrong and
you have no idea what it is.
From one day to the next,you're doing great and then
suddenly you have no idea whatit is.
From one day to the next,you're doing great, and then
suddenly you have no.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Just real quick in that instance.
So you decide that youdiscovered that, that the
anxiety came from the fact thatyou were no longer a baritone,
you were a tenor, and you had tofind that out.
You know, through through, youknow, almost tripping over it,
basically, yeah.
Did that, that experience,though being fired did that
cause any scar tissue?
What you've been talking aboutin terms of you know, memories
(37:05):
that have affected you in futureperformances, or was just the
realization that you're a tenor,not a baritone, enough to sweep
that?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
away.
That was enough, because thatexplained it.
Then I realized, well, I didn'tmess up, you know, it was just
that.
I mean, this is one of the hardthings you know about being a
singer is that voices areextremely complex things and you
can spend a lifetime trying tofigure out what is your nature,
right?
(37:30):
I mean, in classical singing,you're called a voice type,
you're called a bass, you'recalled a baritone, you're called
this Very often.
You're trying everything youcall the baritone, you call this
very often.
You're trying everything youcan to fill those shoes, so you
don't know that you're actuallyproducing sounds that fulfill
what you're told you are asopposed to discovering your true
(37:51):
nature, and that's somethingthat takes time and and schools
often, uh, I mean I I think Ihad a teacher probably knew what
I was, but didn't want to takethe responsibility of going to
that change because it's not aneasy thing to do.
I was being successful atbaritone, so just leave it alone
, right?
Uh, I get that, but uh, and itdid take me quite a long time to
(38:13):
actually master my voice againas a tenor.
I'm glad I did it.
Uh, I didn't back away from it.
I was like that's information.
I am a tenor.
I'm glad I did it.
I didn't back away from it.
That's information.
I am a tenor, so that's whatI'm going to do and I'm a very
happy singer and I'm singingtenor now.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
He's a very happy singer everybody and I love
hearing that.
Ron, I can't thank you enoughfor these two episodes because I
think you've given us a lot ofinformation about how to
confront performance anxiety,what to look for, what to think
about doing, and I think all ofthe things you've said can
transfer over to the personwho's having performance anxiety
because they got to give atoast at the wedding this
weekend.
(38:46):
You know all those things willhelp.
So I want to thank you so muchfor taking the time to do these
two shows.
Coming all the way from Spainto do these, he didn't fly out.
We're doing this over Zoom, butI want to thank you for that
and I really wish you the best,ron.
Thanks for being on.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Thank you so much.
Same to you, my friend.
I enjoy these interviews somuch because you're such a
natural at this.
I feel like I'm beinginterviewed by Larry King or
somebody.
It flows so easily.
That's not always the case.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
I can tell you that I've done tons of interviews and
it's not all the time that youget somebody that you feel like
you're in the flow, in the zone,as we say in tennis.
Well, I really appreciate thatand and you know, a lot of that,
I think, comes from uh, as acoach, you know really learning
how to listen.
That's the key as a coachreally being present and
(39:33):
listening without thinking aboutwhat you're going to say next
and all the stuff that wetypically do as people.
But that's really nice of youto say and I can't thank you
enough.
So, if you've enjoyed listeningto the show, thank you all for
tuning in.
If you've enjoyed listening,please hit that subscribe or
like button so that you can findout when I drop new episodes,
and I've been saying this a lotlately.
If you have an idea for a topicyou'd like me to cover, I'd love
(39:56):
to hear from you.
Email me.
It's matt atmattbrookscoachingcom.
That's simple Matt atmattbrookscoachingcom and two Ts
in Matt, by the way.
But shoot me an idea.
I'd love to hear from you andif it's something that I can
pull off or feel good about, Iwill absolutely do it.
So thanks for listening andplease tune in.
(40:19):
Next week I'm going topiggyback this series on
performance anxiety, with oneepisode about fear of failure,
because fear of fear of failureis very similar to performance
anxiety.
So that's what I'm going to donext week.
Meanwhile, thanks again forlistening.
Be well, and I'll catch younext time on the Barrier Busting
Podcast.
Podcast.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com