January 6, 2025 • 41 mins
Licensed Clinical Social Worker and University Professor with a PHD in Human Sexuality, Dr. Nicole Zmuda, offers a captivating discussion on the critical impact of communication patterns in relationships. We explore John Gottman's groundbreaking concept of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse—criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt—as key predictors of relationship challenges.
Discover how the pioneering research by John Gottman has shed light on the intricacies of communication within relationships. We navigate through his findings, emphasizing the significance of recognizing these destructive behaviors and the importance of the "magic ratio," which suggests that a healthy relationship thrives on a balance of five positive interactions to one negative. Dr. Zmuda offers her expert perspective on therapeutic strategies derived from Gottman's work, aimed at cultivating lasting and fulfilling partnerships.
Gain practical tools to transform your relational landscape as we discuss antidotes for overcoming common communication hurdles. With Dr. Zmuda's guidance, we highlight the power of respect, appreciation, and personal accountability in combating the Four Horsemen. Learn how to foster understanding through "I" statements and gentle startups, address defensiveness by taking responsibility, and recognize the complexities of stonewalling. This episode is your roadmap to nurturing a supportive and thriving relational environment.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are you feeling stuck , trapped by barriers holding
you back from reaching your fullpotential?
Well, let's bust through thosebarriers so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
passionate about helping peopleovercome barriers to achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your true potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Well, hello everybody andwelcome back.
It is the new year.
(00:56):
We are finally into the newyear.
I hope you had a chance tolisten to my episode on New
Year's Eve resolutions, why wefail at them and how we can make
them stick.
Seriously, like 7% of NewYear's resolutions actually work
.
Think about that.
How do you make that work Ifyou're thinking about, if you're
looking back at last year,thinking about things you want
to change, and looking back andlooking forward to this year,
(01:17):
making plans, but you're worriedabout following through because
you have a history, as we alldo, of not following through
with our New Year's resolutions?
I have a solution for you Get alife coach.
Seriously, I happen to be one,by the way.
In case you want to work withme, you go to my website, scroll
down to the calendar.
That's mattbrookscoachingcom.
Scroll down to the calendar.
(01:37):
Click on a date and time thatworks for you and get a free
30-minute discovery sessionwhere we can get to know each
other, decide if we're a goodfit.
I'd love to hear your story andsee if we can work together,
but coaches will help you.
Stay on track.
We'll not only work with you toreally clarify your intentions
so that you're really clear onwhat you want to achieve, but
we'll also work asaccountability partners and
(01:59):
motivators.
So get yourself a coach.
You want to make those changes.
We'll help you with that.
Now, that's not what today'sshow is about, though.
Today's show is about thisthing called Gottman's Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
I know sounds pretty dark,right, it's because the Four
Horsemen is a reference to theBook of Revelation, and those
Four Horsemen are not people wewant in our lives.
(02:21):
But this is a little differentand we're going to talk about.
I have a special guest todaywho's going to really help us
understand what this is about.
Now I got to come clean.
This guest of mine today istruly one of my favorite people
on the planet.
As many of you know, I wentback in my 50s to get a master's
in social work, which, by theway, is a kick.
Go back to school in your 50s,it's a real kick.
(02:42):
But anyways, she was one of myprofessors.
She was my favorite professorand she was my advisor, and what
made her my favorite professorwas, first of all, nothing got
by her, Nothing.
She's really smart, she knowsher stuff and she got a lot of
respect from me because I reallygot my money's worth out of
working with her and I'm reallygrateful to her.
(03:03):
My guest today is Dr NicoleZamuda, who is currently an
assistant professor of socialwork at Fairleigh Dickinson
University in New Jersey.
Dr Zamuda holds a bachelor'sdegree in art and psychology and
a master's degree in socialwork from Marywood University
and additionally she has amaster's in education and a PhD
in human sexuality from theCenter for Human Sexuality
(03:24):
Studies at Widener University.
I hope I said that one right.
Dr Zamuda is a licensedclinical social worker with
almost 20 years experience insubstance use disorder treatment
and behavioral health care.
I should mention that, inaddition to her teaching right
now, she does continue her workas a clinician, and I'm going to
ask her about that in a minute.
For those of us that studiedwith her.
We lovingly referred to her asDr Z.
(03:48):
Dr Z, it's great to have you onthe Barrier Busty podcast.
Thanks for taking the time.
It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It's so great to be here.
Thank you so much for that warmintroduction, Matthew.
You got me all in my feels.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Did I get you all?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
a flutter there.
Well, it's genuine.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
It's genuine, and I know that some students give you
a hard time because you dothings like actually great, you
know.
You do things like actuallycall out mistakes, and but what
they don't realize is that younever once set anybody up for
failure and you always I don'tknow how you make the time, but
you make the time Like if I wasstruggling with a paper, like
(04:25):
you'd help me research it.
It's amazing stuff I wouldnever have gotten from my
professors way back when I wentto school before.
I'm not going to mention,because that was a long time ago
, but I want to ask you a coupleof questions about you before
we get into this topic of thefour horsemen.
It seems to me that you caughtthis psychology social worker
bug really early on in your life, right?
(04:47):
So what brought you to thiswhole field of study?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, so you're right about kind of catching the
study of humans, study of humanbehavior, early on.
Interestingly fun fact, I wasoriginally going to go into law.
I did mock trial in high schooland I thought that I was like,
yeah, I thought I was going togo to law school and become an
(05:14):
attorney, and so maybe that'skind of where I get my level of
precision and attention todetail, but nonetheless I ended
up going into.
I went into an educational paththat positioned me to pursue
art therapy professionally andthat was kind of the original
goal and it really came from.
(05:35):
You know, just, I think youknow, sometimes the professions
pick you.
We have these personalitystyles and these kind of natural
strengths that make us goodfits for certain careers, and I
was always someone that enjoyedlistening to people, enjoyed
helping people, and so it justkind of made sense for me to go
(05:55):
into the helping profession andso that's kind of how I got into
the general field of, you know,helping, helping professions,
helping people.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, I can't see you as a litigator.
I mean, if you were a litigatorI could see that you would be a
tough nut to crack, but I can'tsee you, knowing your persona,
as really being that kind ofperson.
But if any of your currentstudents happen to be listening
today, I want to comment on thatprecision.
You want that precision fromyour professor.
(06:26):
You're paying serious money toget an education, not just get
told you're wonderful.
It's the person that tells youwhat you don't want to hear.
That's the person you can trust.
Should I repeat that?
Let me repeat that it's theperson that tells you what you
don't want to hear.
That's the person you can trust.
Ponder that If you want me todo an episode on that in the
future, shoot me an email, matt,at mattbrookscoachingcom, and I
(06:47):
will Now back to Dr Zamuda.
After you did your master's insocial work, if I have this
story correct in my mind, youdecided you wanted to study
human sexuality and you wantedto get a PhD in it.
But you found out that in orderto get that PhD, you would
first have to get anothermaster's degree.
Right, I mean, most of us wouldhave said, nah, I'm not doing
(07:09):
that, but you somehow went okay,hold my beer, I'll do it.
I mean, that's a commitment,that's a lot of years and a lot
of hard work.
So what was it about humansexuality that made you that
passionate that you'd be willingto put yourself through those
rigors?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
So when I found myself with myfirst big girl job after my MSW,
I was working in arehabilitation program for
adults with substance usedisorders, and part of the work
that I ended up doing wasfacilitating a process group for
(07:47):
individuals who acknowledgedstruggling in some way, shape or
form with their sexual behavior, their sexual relationships.
But as I did it, I realized thatthere was so much about human
sexuality and how sexualrelationships were negotiated
(08:11):
that I just didn't know and Ifelt like I was doing the
clients that I worked with adisservice because I felt so
ignorant.
Human sexuality is a huge field.
I felt so ignorant.
Human sexuality is a huge fieldand I think that's why the
program that I attended buildsin that additional master's,
(08:33):
because it is so vast and sospecialized that, yes, it was
important that I had a master'sdegree that would allow me to do
clinical work.
Because that I had a master'sdegree that would allow me to do
clinical work.
Because, you know, the kind oftrajectory that I wanted to go
on was to pursue this additionaldegree and be able to do sex
(08:54):
therapy right, be able to workclinically with people in this
area.
But I needed that educationalfoundation first, and so that's
where that second master's camein.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, you know, it makes a lot of sense because we,
for some reason, we're stillafraid to talk about sex and
like what's, like one of ourprimary motivators in life.
What, what is in our psyche allthe time?
Stop lying about it, people,it's there, you know.
It's a question of how weprocess it, how we accept it,
how we learn about ourselves,right.
(09:26):
So it makes tremendous sense tome, but kudos to you for making
that level of a commitment, wow.
Now, in addition, I mentionedto your teaching at Fairleigh
Dickinson.
Right now you are working as aclinician.
Tell us briefly about your workas a clinician now.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, sure.
So I'm still kind of in thework of substance use disorder
treatment.
I'm currently contracting witha program that's based out of
Philadelphia that specializes inthe care of substance use
disorders and I'm facilitating ageneral outpatient group via
(10:02):
telehealth, which is really nicefor individuals who identify,
as you know, lesbian, gay,bisexual, trans, queer, and it's
been really wonderful to workwith individuals in recovery
again and specificallyindividuals who may have some
(10:24):
additional challenges inrecovery from their sexual
identity.
The space that we create inthat group is just really
wonderful and it's it's sorewarding to work with like a
good working group.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Do you look at substance abuse as a disease?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
as a disease?
That's a really good question,matt and I, you know, I think
it's where we certainly have apublic health issue.
I believe that there areindividuals where there is that
genetic predisposition, but Ialso believe and have worked
with individuals that you knowdon't have that family history
(11:10):
and yet develop the disorderfrom, you know, early trauma or
challenges in their environment.
Right, it's kind of thatnurture versus nature argument.
So I think yes, and I thinkthat's probably like the
shortest answer.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I think that's a good answer, because I think there's
still a lot of debate aboutthis.
And is it a disease, or is itsomething we bring on ourselves
and it's not?
I think it's in terms ofanything we could bring on
ourselves.
It's really more, as you said,a reaction to trauma more often.
It does not mean people are weak, is what I'm really hoping to
get at.
You know, we tend to decideweakness is certain
(11:50):
characteristics, and no there's,you know.
You know how many alcoholicsare in Mensa, for instance.
I mean it's right, so all right.
Well, let's get on to our topica little bit, and this is a
topic you brought to myattention which I find really
fascinating Gottman's FourHorsemen.
Is this about death?
What is this about?
Is this about the end of times?
What is Gottman's Four Horsemenof the Apocalypse?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I mean you're not wrong in that, Matthew, right?
I mean with the same name.
It's hard to avoid thosecomparisons.
But I think you know Gottmandid that intentionally.
So he you know, and I can talka little bit more about his work
, but Gottman is a relationshipresearcher, in short, and he
coined the phrase four horsemen,or he appropriated the phrase
(12:36):
four horsemen of the apocalypseto emphasize that these specific
behaviors, these fourbehavioral patterns and
communication will signal theend times of a relationship if
they're not addressed.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So this is about relationships.
This is about relationships.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, yes, and things that kill relationships right.
Exactly Yep, yep.
And, to be more specific, thework originated from his
research with marriedheterosexual couples, but his
work has really expanded overtime to include gay and lesbian
couples, unmarried couples andalso family systems, to really
(13:17):
understand the drivers ofsuccessful and healthy
relationships in all of thosedifferent systems, and the
important point here is that,regardless of our sexuality and
who we're involved with in ourfamily systems, these four
things are bad for everybody,and for things that everybody
kind of does right.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We're all guilty of this at some point.
We're going to talk a littlebetter, but first of all, when
did this research come out?
Was this relatively recent, oris Gottman still alive?
I mean, where's this in thespectrum of psychology?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, so Gottman is still alive, he's still doing
his work.
He and his wife, Julie arestill running what is called the
Gottman Institute.
The Gottman Institute actuallystarted as his love lab, so he
has been doing his researchsince the seventies his, his
apartment style.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Oh how seventies, is that name right?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Right, the love lab.
So he had, um, he built anapartment style laboratory that
he used for his research at theuniversity of Washington that he
that he did with couples, andthey would come in and they
would just kind of like hang outfor a week, and there were all
of these cameras situated aroundthe apartment and they would
just collect all of this data,all of this observational data.
(14:30):
They would collect biomarkerdata and physiologic data like
heart rate and urine samples.
So it was really empiricallybased.
Like there was a lot of effortthat went into this, but he's
been doing this, like I said,since the seventies.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Okay, so real quick, just give us the brief outline.
What are the four horsemen ofof the apocalypse, according to
Gottman?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, so the four horsemen, um are, as he
described, the kind of thingsthat would predict dissolution
in relationships, right, thekind of things that would
predict dissolution inrelationships, right, they're
the things that, through hisresearch, he found that, when
present and unaddressed, wouldlead to the breakdown, the
breakup, the end of anyparticular relationship, and
(15:16):
those are criticism,defensiveness, stonewalling and
contempt bitterness,stonewalling and contempt, aha,
those are all things that soundfamiliar to me, that I've
probably done and have had doneto me, right?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I mean, these are, these are not uncommon things,
right?
That's the kind of the point ofthis, right right, right,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We've all engaged in them at some point in our lives.
So I think it's important tokind of normalize this.
This is these things happen,but you know, hopefully the goal
is to become more aware of themso that you can make some
changes.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Well and I think that's part of his study doesn't
just stop at these are theproblems.
He also has solutions to theseproblems that he calls antidotes
.
Right, right, give us a withouttelling us what the antidotes
are.
We're going to break that downafter the break, but there are
solutions to fixing these thingsif we get really bad at them.
Right, talk about that briefly,please.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, exactly so Gottman.
Gottman is a therapist inaddition to a researcher and he
his research, really kind ofstarted from recognizing high
divorce rates, not only in ourcountry but kind of worldwide,
and so he really felt ethicallybound to find a way to change
that right, find a way to helpmarriages, to help couples, and
(16:41):
so he, through his research,really looked to understand the
drivers of successfulrelationships and what
contributed to the demise ofrelationships, and that's kind
of where he identified thesefour horsemen.
But there was so much that camefrom his work.
He's got a whole theory thatwe're now calling the sound
(17:04):
relationship house model andthrough that theory there are
specific interventions, there'straining courses that therapists
can go through to get trainedin the Gottman model.
And I think, more popularly Idon't know if you've heard this,
matthew, but his work inspiredthe magic ratio right when for
(17:28):
every one negative interactionthat you have with someone, it
takes five positive reactions tokind of counter that.
That comes from Gottman's work.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Really?
No, I had not heard that.
So for every one negativeinteraction you got to pay back
the bank.
Five positive interactions.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Right, yeah, he found that in the couples that were
stronger, that they had adisproportionate amount of
positive interactions happeningin their relationship, five
times more than the negativeinteractions, and so that's
where that ratio comes from.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Okay, well, we are going to take a quick break and
then we're going to go and we'regoing to break down these four
horsemen and we're going to giveyou the antidotes.
So hang tight.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Feeling overwhelmed, Struggling to find balance in
your daily life?
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help life.
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, MattBrooks offers personalized
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
(18:39):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace, Matt is here to be your
partner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Okay, back with Dr Nicole Zamuda.
We're talking about Gottman'sFour Horsemen of the Apocalypse,
which has to do with killingrelationships.
So let's break these fourhorsemen down right now.
Number one criticism.
How do we define criticism?
I mean, we all know whatcriticism is, but in this case,
how is it defined?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It's really defined much the same as we would define
it in our lay conversations.
So criticism, per Gottman, iswhen you attack an individual's
character or their personalityrather than express concern or
issue with a particular behavioror source of the conflict.
(19:46):
And in criticism oftentimes wehear things like well, you
always or you never write thesekind of sweeping generalizations
when describing what anotherperson is doing or not doing,
and you know it can soundsomething like well, you never
(20:06):
listened to me or you neverasked me how my day was Right
these kind of blanketgeneralizations instead of
taking issue with, like, oneparticular behavior or
interaction.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So, for those listening right now, let's talk
about how criticism differs fromconstructive feedback, from
both the perspective of theperson giving it and the
perspective of the personreceiving it, because there is a
difference between criticismand constructive feedback, and I
know in my life I rely on mywife to give me constructive
feedback.
(20:41):
There are times when it'scriticism and I just put the
hand up, but I do rely.
We need to hear feedback too,so how does it criticism and
feedback differ?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, criticism differs from constructive
feedback often in terms of toneand the content of what's being
said.
So, for example, as I mentioned, criticism involves attacking a
person's character you know whothey are while constructive
(21:13):
feedback really focuses in on,you know, when you left a dirty
dish out on the table right, asopposed to saying why are you so
messy or why are you so lazyand you never clean up, and
there's also, like I said, adifference in the tone.
So criticism is going to be anattack, it's going to be, you
(21:38):
know, almost like anassassination of a person's
character, whereas theconstructive feedback comes at
the issue or the interactionfrom a neutral standpoint.
Maybe one of curiosity.
You know, I noticed that youleft the dish out on the dining
room table, and I'm using thisinteraction because this happens
(22:01):
all the time in my relationship, you know like did you run out
of time to put it in the sink?
You know?
Was it a busy morning, but Iyou know I want to hit this from
both sides, though did you runout of time to put it in the
sink?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
You know, was it a busy morning, but I, you know, I
want to hit this from bothsides though, because I think
relationships problems inrelationships comes from not
only how things are approachedbut how things are received, and
sometimes you can be givingconstructive feedback and
there's an immediate pugnaciousresponse.
That's often because of thebuildup of all the stuff, the
negative things that happen inyour relationship, you know.
(22:30):
So what advice do you have forpeople receiving the feedback in
terms about being disciplinedenough to determine whether it's
constructive feedback orcriticism?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, that's a good one.
So I don't want to get too muchinto defensiveness yet because
I think you know there's someelement of that other horseman
that can rear its ugly head.
Yeah, for sure.
But I think part of the um,part of what I would say, is,
you know, kind of being aware,um of what you're hearing and
checking in with the otherperson.
(23:00):
So there are folks in therelationship world who talk
about um.
I think it's Hendrix who talksabout how to repeat back what
you're hearing so that you'renot responding with what you're
perceiving it as right.
So what I heard you say was andthen try to repeat back exactly
(23:23):
what your partner said to youversus what your interpretation
of that is, because I think ourinterpretations are kind of our
filter, right, communication isa two-way street.
Our filter can affect how wehear it, what we hear and, most
definitely, how we respond.
So I think you know taking apause and saying, okay, well,
(23:45):
here's specifically, here's whatI heard you say to me.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's great advice and actually it brought me to my
training as a therapist.
Because we do that right.
We will reflect back to peoplewhat they're saying, and I've
noticed in my own practicealready I'll reflect back how
I'm hearing someone saysomething, and it's happened a
couple of times now where theclients has said to me you know,
hearing you say it that waymakes me think of it a little
(24:12):
differently.
Right, so that is a that'sprobably a constructive thing to
do in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Now tell me what the antidote is for contempt.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
So the antidote for criticism yes, criticism, sorry,
we're on criticism.
Sorry, I'm looking at the nextone while I'm talking about the
first one.
So antidote for criticism yes.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, so what you want to do is, instead of so, if
you're the person, kind ofgiving the feedback if I want to
approach my husband and takeissue with the dirty glass
that's left out on the kitchentable Instead of coming in like
(24:56):
a bull in a china shop, becausethis isn't the first time that
it's happened.
Right, I've got to keep thatemotional reaction.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
You got to keep your guns in your holsters, as I say.
Right, that's a beautifulmetaphor.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, you got to keep your guns in your holsters, as
I say.
Right, that's a beautifulmetaphor, I love it.
Yeah, you got to keep your gunsin your holster and you want to
use what Gottman calls a gentlestartup.
So you want to use I statementsand you want to make sure that
you are addressing this specificbehavior, right.
(25:26):
So I noticed that you left thedish on the kitchen table, right
.
That's very neutral, veryobjective, and then you can
follow it up with.
That makes me feel frustratedbecause I need to then clean it
up after you leave for the day.
(25:49):
Is there a way that you couldbe more mindful?
Or my request of you is youknow, can you be more mindful to
put your dishes away afterbreakfast?
Very different than why can'tyou just clean up after yourself
?
Why do I have to tell you 10times to put the dish in the
sink, right?
(26:09):
Simple example, but hopefullyfolks can hear the difference in
that delivery.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It takes a lot of discipline, because boy can we
get contemptuous of each otherwhen we're in a relationship
which brings us to number two onthe list contempt right.
This is often considered themost destructive of the four
horsemen right.
How is contempt defined and whyis it considered the most
destructive of the four horsemenright?
How is contempt defined and whyis it?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
considered the most destructive.
Yeah, so contempt is contemptmanifests through feelings of
superiority or belittling inthat relationship.
So it really kind of isreflective of this power
imbalance.
And they're so destructivebecause these behaviors really
(26:59):
kind of belie a level oftentimesof resentment in the
relationship, whether it's Iresent how much money my partner
makes or I resent how well theyget along with their family, or
an inherent insecurity that oneof the persons in the
relationship has.
(27:19):
Whatever it is.
It's just this sense of I'mbetter than you or you're not as
good as, or you're lucky to bewith me, right, like that's not
a good foundation for arelationship and generally, when
that's present, that's a suresignal that it's on its way to
(27:41):
dissolve, which is probably forthe best, because that's not
fodder for a healthyrelationship.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yes, but there are antidotes right.
There are things we can try ifour relationships get to that
point.
What are they?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah.
So if you notice contemptshowing up in your relationship,
right, maybe there is an issuethat's gone unresolved in the
relationship and it's kind ofbreeding some of this resentment
and frustration.
Think back to what we weretalking about before with that
magic ratio, right, for everyone negative interaction, you've
got to counter that with fivepositive interactions with five
(28:23):
positive interactions.
The antidote for contempt isthrough intentionally creating
an environment of respect andappreciation within the
relationship, and so it's beingdeliberate about acknowledging
to your partner in notnecessarily in the context of
conflict, but certainly ifconflict happens.
You want to try to expressappreciation or see the other
(28:46):
person's side, but justgenerally, on a day-to-day,
expressing gratitude or thanksfor what your partner brings to
the table or contributes to therelationship.
Right, I like that because whatthey're bringing to the table
or contributes to therelationship right, like I.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
like that because what they're bringing to the
table, like I, I've noticed inmy life when I've been
contemptuous to people oftenit's because they're not
bringing what I think theyshould be bringing, but it turns
out they're bringing things tothe table Right.
So, uh, yeah, I think this isreally important.
Um and, and frankly, contemptcomes, as you said, from looking
down at people.
So get off your damn high horse, be disciplined to get off your
(29:23):
damn high horse right and seeeach other for who you are and
appreciate each other right.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, and I think you raise a good point in terms of
like what, recognizing that thiskind of comes from not seeing
what you want to see from theother person, and we can get so
caught up in our ownexpectations and the things that
we're not getting that weoverlook the things that we are
getting.
And if we can turn ourattention to those things, they
(29:51):
can make a real differenceinternally in terms of how we're
feeling in the relationship,but also for the relationship
health overall.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Love it, love it.
Okay, number three on the hitlist of four horsemen is
defensiveness.
Who doesn't have a bit of thisin them?
So define defensiveness andlet's just start to find it.
How is this defined?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, so defensiveness is a way that we,
if we are on the receiving endof feedback, it's a way that we
shift blame or responsibility toother people people in the
relationship, people outside ofthe relationship, people at work
(30:33):
right Like we can shift thatblame anywhere.
And it really is blame anywhereand it really is a lack of
accountability.
And I think you talked about,you know, coaching as a way to
help keep people accountable.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Thanks for the plug.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
You got it.
I think, listen, I thinkeverybody needs an
accountability buddy.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
That's the language that I like to use An
accountability buddy.
I'm going to borrow that.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
You have it.
It just rolls off your tongue,but yeah, so defensiveness is
when you're not takingaccountability and you're saying
it's everybody else's fault,but mine.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Okay, but there's another element to that, and
that's when you're beingattacked, and you're being
attacked unfairly and you can bedefensive, then Is that okay or
is there a better?
You know, I mean, we're goingto get to the antidotes, but I
mean, how does that fall intothis category of you know
someone's pulling contempt onyou when you're being defensive?
Right, I mean, these fourhorsemen don't work independent
(31:29):
of each other.
They all work together, don'tthey right?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
yeah, and gotman's got a whole thing about like
these, how these all kind ofcome together to form these
relationship characteristics orthese categories of
communication patterns andstyles and relationships.
That's for another conversation.
But you're right, if someone'scoming at you with contempt and
they're attacking you, they'recriticizing you, who wouldn't
(31:55):
get defensive?
And I think a lot of that isnatural and it's appropriate to
set boundaries, but I think interms of the context of the
conversation, right, so we cansee defensiveness.
You talked earlier about thatfilter.
So I might say to my husband ifhe's coming home late and he
(32:17):
will every now and then comehome late, and so I'll say to
him, oh you're late again, notintending that as a criticism,
just kind of noticing oh you'relate again and he might, because
his filter is such that hehears it as a criticism.
He might get defensive for noreason.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Because he's remembering you give him a hard
time about that glass on thecounter that he left that
morning right.
So no, I get it, I get it.
So did we talk about what arethe antidotes?
What are other antidotes here?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah.
So the antidote is to acceptresponsibility where you can,
and that is really difficult.
When I work with individualswho are struggling with
relationship issues, or whenI've worked with couples I
always talk about.
You know, you've got to keepyour side of the street clean.
There's more than one personcreating a mess in the
(33:13):
relationship, but you have theonly thing you can control is
your side of that mess, and so,even if the other person is
responsible for 90%, you stillhave 10% that you can be
responsible or takeaccountability for.
And it can be really tough tobe the bigger person, as it were
(33:36):
, and say you're right, I shouldhave called you or you're right
, I should have put the dish inthe sink.
Even when the other person'slife seems a mess and is
creating a lot of issues withinthe relationship, you still have
to take accountability.
That's the antidote for thatdefensiveness, and that can be
really hard when there's animbalance.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Sure, that can be hard for anybody.
Really All right.
Last one on our list, and thisis the one that I personally
find the most obnoxious.
I really just this is the onethat sets me over the falls.
If you know what I mean, it'scalled stonewalling.
What is the definition, whatdoes it look like and why does
it typically happen?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I think stonewalling is really interesting because
part of my training as atherapist has been on really
understanding the role thattrauma plays in our lives and
especially in relationships, andwhat we know about stonewalling
from Gottman's work is that itis a defense mechanism similar
(34:39):
to any other defense mechanismsthat people might be familiar
with from the psychology field,like denial, rationalization,
justification, etc.
When we typically seestonewalling, it's in the
context of that conflict, wheresomeone is feeling overwhelmed,
(35:06):
feeling overwhelmed, emotionallyflooded, and they need to
disengage from the conflict orfrom the argument because
they're so reactive, becausethey're so triggered.
What it looks like is maybe itdoes look like rudeness and it
can be.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
some people can just be stonewalling because they're
jerks right, like I'm not goingto say it's always, but but it's
important to know that reallythere can be a different reason
here, and most often is, andit's not that they're being
jerks, they're kind of shuttingdown right.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Right, because it's a protective mechanism for them.
So what it looks like is kindof avoiding eye contact.
Maybe they are giving one wordanswers like uh-huh, right,
they're not engaging in theconversation.
Or maybe they're just kind ofwalking away from the conflict
altogether.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, this is a rough one because it's hard to
determine which.
And there's a bigger issue thatI'm going to do a show on
someday.
Maybe you can come on it.
It's the concept of ghosting,which I think is really one of
the most horrible things you cando as a person.
Have the courage to tellsomebody you've got a problem,
don't ghost them.
But we'll get into that anothertime.
What are the?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
antidotes for stonewalling.
So, because stonewalling comesfrom being overwhelmed
emotionally, right, Emotionallyflooded, We've got to think back
to ways of self-care andself-soothing.
You had a dietician on yourpodcast a little bit ago and she
(36:36):
talked about mindfulness andmindful eating a little bit ago
and she talked about mindfulnessand mindful eating.
Mindfulness is a great skill tohave to notice when you're
starting to get overwhelmed,when the emotions are rising.
The more you can be aware ofthat, the more you can engage in
(36:57):
things like deep breathing,progressive muscle relaxation.
You can even say you know what.
In things like deep breathing,progressive muscle relaxation,
you can even say you know what.
I'm starting to feel a littleoverwhelmed right now.
Can we come back to thisconversation in maybe like five,
10 minutes?
I need to just take a break,calm myself down, whatever you
need to do to kind ofself-soothe in that situation,
(37:18):
but the important thing, right,it's not ghosting, you don't
leave and then you never comeback, right?
You've got to come back to theconversation to resolve it.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
That's key, and actually I think timeouts are
really helpful.
When you hit the wall with yourpartner or a family member and
you're just, you know, you getto a point where you're so
pissed off that nothing's makingsense.
You just got to step aside fora minute, you know so that so
pissed off that nothing's makingsense.
You just got to step aside fora minute, you know so.
That's great.
Okay, well, we've been runninglong, but here's the good news.
(37:45):
I've got one more question foryou, but I want everybody to
know she doctors and we wascoming back for a second episode
in which we are going to takethis concept of the four
horsemen and broaden it out ofromantic relationships and
family relationships into thesort of this polarized society
we're living in right now andhow these four horsemen are
getting in our way of being amore collaborative society.
(38:05):
But first, before we get off oftoday's topic, I just want to
ask you what are some smallpractical challenges or
exercises that the listenerscould do this week to reduce
even one of these destructivebehaviors?
What's a small thing we allcould do right now?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, so hopefully folks who are listening have
been able to maybe recognizesome of these horsemen in their
relationships and paid attentionto the antidotes that might be
more appropriate for them.
But I believe that practicingthat daily appreciation is a
really good start because notonly does that target contempt,
(38:44):
which is the most destructivehorseman of the four, it also
has positive implications foroverall relationship health
because it's fostering gratitudeand respect.
So, every day being intentionalabout expressing appreciation
or thanks for something thatyour partner has done, like
(39:06):
thank you for making my coffeethis morning, thank you for
bringing in the garbage can fromthe curb right, whatever, it is
to be intentional and make thatacknowledgement.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
And that costs nothing.
That's simple.
I mean I, you know, I married aJersey girl and I'm a
passionate person myself.
So there might be some fightsin our house.
There might be some fights thatyou don't want to see because
they're pretty serious.
But you know, I think we'reboth pretty good at like the
next day, making sure to put alittle bomb on the, on the wound
(39:38):
you know for each other, and Ithink that's, at the end of the
day, that's really what's mostimportant is that you somehow,
despite we're going to get inarguments, we're going to have
contempt, we're going to bedefensive, we're going to have
all these things because we'rein an intimate relationship,
because we're close to eachother.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Period, end of sentence.
But we also have to takeresponsibility for not only our
(39:58):
own behaviors but for caring Ifwe truly care about the other
person here, to take a littlebit of responsibility for how
they feel and how we make themfeel.
So yeah, we're going to get anugly fights, but we can stop,
take a deep breath and say butyou know what I do love you, or
you know you, thanks for takingcare of that thing yesterday.
(40:18):
That really saved me a fewminutes and you know you thanks
for taking care of that thingyesterday.
That really saved me a fewminutes, and you know, whatever,
find a way to do that, okay.
Well, we are.
That's all we got for today.
We're coming back next weekwith Dr Nicole Zamuda to talk
about this some more.
So thank you for being on today.
Dr Z Um, if you are listening,this is my latest offer.
If you have a topic that youwould like me to cover on this
podcast, shoot me an email.
(40:39):
I'd love to hear from you.
It's matt atmattbrookscoachingcom.
Shoot me an email, let me knowwhat you'd like me to cover and
I will do my best to cover it.
For now, we're just going to,like I said, talk next week
about some ideas about how thesefour horsemen relate to us in a
broader sense of society.
So I hope you'll tune in forthat.
(41:01):
I'm glad you were here today.
I hope you enjoyed today'sconversation.
For now, thanks for listeningand I'll catch you next time on
the Barrier Busting Podcast.
Thank you.
Are you feeling stuck , trapped by barriers holding
you back from reaching your fullpotential?
Well, let's bust through thosebarriers so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
passionate about helping peopleovercome barriers to achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your true potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
Well, hello everybody andwelcome back.
It is the new year.
(00:56):
We are finally into the newyear.
I hope you had a chance tolisten to my episode on New
Year's Eve resolutions, why wefail at them and how we can make
them stick.
Seriously, like 7% of NewYear's resolutions actually work
.
Think about that.
How do you make that work Ifyou're thinking about, if you're
looking back at last year,thinking about things you want
to change, and looking back andlooking forward to this year,
(01:17):
making plans, but you're worriedabout following through because
you have a history, as we alldo, of not following through
with our New Year's resolutions?
I have a solution for you Get alife coach.
Seriously, I happen to be one,by the way.
In case you want to work withme, you go to my website, scroll
down to the calendar.
That's mattbrookscoachingcom.
Scroll down to the calendar.
(01:37):
Click on a date and time thatworks for you and get a free
30-minute discovery sessionwhere we can get to know each
other, decide if we're a goodfit.
I'd love to hear your story andsee if we can work together,
but coaches will help you.
Stay on track.
We'll not only work with you toreally clarify your intentions
so that you're really clear onwhat you want to achieve, but
we'll also work asaccountability partners and
(01:59):
motivators.
So get yourself a coach.
You want to make those changes.
We'll help you with that.
Now, that's not what today'sshow is about, though.
Today's show is about thisthing called Gottman's Four
Horsemen of the Apocalypse.
I know sounds pretty dark,right, it's because the Four
Horsemen is a reference to theBook of Revelation, and those
Four Horsemen are not people wewant in our lives.
(02:21):
But this is a little differentand we're going to talk about.
I have a special guest todaywho's going to really help us
understand what this is about.
Now I got to come clean.
This guest of mine today istruly one of my favorite people
on the planet.
As many of you know, I wentback in my 50s to get a master's
in social work, which, by theway, is a kick.
Go back to school in your 50s,it's a real kick.
(02:42):
But anyways, she was one of myprofessors.
She was my favorite professorand she was my advisor, and what
made her my favorite professorwas, first of all, nothing got
by her, Nothing.
She's really smart, she knowsher stuff and she got a lot of
respect from me because I reallygot my money's worth out of
working with her and I'm reallygrateful to her.
(03:03):
My guest today is Dr NicoleZamuda, who is currently an
assistant professor of socialwork at Fairleigh Dickinson
University in New Jersey.
Dr Zamuda holds a bachelor'sdegree in art and psychology and
a master's degree in socialwork from Marywood University
and additionally she has amaster's in education and a PhD
in human sexuality from theCenter for Human Sexuality
(03:24):
Studies at Widener University.
I hope I said that one right.
Dr Zamuda is a licensedclinical social worker with
almost 20 years experience insubstance use disorder treatment
and behavioral health care.
I should mention that, inaddition to her teaching right
now, she does continue her workas a clinician, and I'm going to
ask her about that in a minute.
For those of us that studiedwith her.
We lovingly referred to her asDr Z.
(03:48):
Dr Z, it's great to have you onthe Barrier Busty podcast.
Thanks for taking the time.
It's nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
It's so great to be here.
Thank you so much for that warmintroduction, Matthew.
You got me all in my feels.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Did I get you all?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
a flutter there.
Well, it's genuine.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
It's genuine, and I know that some students give you
a hard time because you dothings like actually great, you
know.
You do things like actuallycall out mistakes, and but what
they don't realize is that younever once set anybody up for
failure and you always I don'tknow how you make the time, but
you make the time Like if I wasstruggling with a paper, like
(04:25):
you'd help me research it.
It's amazing stuff I wouldnever have gotten from my
professors way back when I wentto school before.
I'm not going to mention,because that was a long time ago
, but I want to ask you a coupleof questions about you before
we get into this topic of thefour horsemen.
It seems to me that you caughtthis psychology social worker
bug really early on in your life, right?
(04:47):
So what brought you to thiswhole field of study?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, so you're right about kind of catching the
study of humans, study of humanbehavior, early on.
Interestingly fun fact, I wasoriginally going to go into law.
I did mock trial in high schooland I thought that I was like,
yeah, I thought I was going togo to law school and become an
(05:14):
attorney, and so maybe that'skind of where I get my level of
precision and attention todetail, but nonetheless I ended
up going into.
I went into an educational paththat positioned me to pursue
art therapy professionally andthat was kind of the original
goal and it really came from.
(05:35):
You know, just, I think youknow, sometimes the professions
pick you.
We have these personalitystyles and these kind of natural
strengths that make us goodfits for certain careers, and I
was always someone that enjoyedlistening to people, enjoyed
helping people, and so it justkind of made sense for me to go
(05:55):
into the helping profession andso that's kind of how I got into
the general field of, you know,helping, helping professions,
helping people.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Well, I can't see you as a litigator.
I mean, if you were a litigatorI could see that you would be a
tough nut to crack, but I can'tsee you, knowing your persona,
as really being that kind ofperson.
But if any of your currentstudents happen to be listening
today, I want to comment on thatprecision.
You want that precision fromyour professor.
(06:26):
You're paying serious money toget an education, not just get
told you're wonderful.
It's the person that tells youwhat you don't want to hear.
That's the person you can trust.
Should I repeat that?
Let me repeat that it's theperson that tells you what you
don't want to hear.
That's the person you can trust.
Ponder that If you want me todo an episode on that in the
future, shoot me an email, matt,at mattbrookscoachingcom, and I
(06:47):
will Now back to Dr Zamuda.
After you did your master's insocial work, if I have this
story correct in my mind, youdecided you wanted to study
human sexuality and you wantedto get a PhD in it.
But you found out that in orderto get that PhD, you would
first have to get anothermaster's degree.
Right, I mean, most of us wouldhave said, nah, I'm not doing
(07:09):
that, but you somehow went okay,hold my beer, I'll do it.
I mean, that's a commitment,that's a lot of years and a lot
of hard work.
So what was it about humansexuality that made you that
passionate that you'd be willingto put yourself through those
rigors?
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah, thanks for asking.
So when I found myself with myfirst big girl job after my MSW,
I was working in arehabilitation program for
adults with substance usedisorders, and part of the work
that I ended up doing wasfacilitating a process group for
(07:47):
individuals who acknowledgedstruggling in some way, shape or
form with their sexual behavior, their sexual relationships.
But as I did it, I realized thatthere was so much about human
sexuality and how sexualrelationships were negotiated
(08:11):
that I just didn't know and Ifelt like I was doing the
clients that I worked with adisservice because I felt so
ignorant.
Human sexuality is a huge field.
I felt so ignorant.
Human sexuality is a huge fieldand I think that's why the
program that I attended buildsin that additional master's,
(08:33):
because it is so vast and sospecialized that, yes, it was
important that I had a master'sdegree that would allow me to do
clinical work.
Because that I had a master'sdegree that would allow me to do
clinical work.
Because, you know, the kind oftrajectory that I wanted to go
on was to pursue this additionaldegree and be able to do sex
(08:54):
therapy right, be able to workclinically with people in this
area.
But I needed that educationalfoundation first, and so that's
where that second master's camein.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, you know, it makes a lot of sense because we,
for some reason, we're stillafraid to talk about sex and
like what's, like one of ourprimary motivators in life.
What, what is in our psyche allthe time?
Stop lying about it, people,it's there, you know.
It's a question of how weprocess it, how we accept it,
how we learn about ourselves,right.
(09:26):
So it makes tremendous sense tome, but kudos to you for making
that level of a commitment, wow.
Now, in addition, I mentionedto your teaching at Fairleigh
Dickinson.
Right now you are working as aclinician.
Tell us briefly about your workas a clinician now.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yeah, sure.
So I'm still kind of in thework of substance use disorder
treatment.
I'm currently contracting witha program that's based out of
Philadelphia that specializes inthe care of substance use
disorders and I'm facilitating ageneral outpatient group via
(10:02):
telehealth, which is really nicefor individuals who identify,
as you know, lesbian, gay,bisexual, trans, queer, and it's
been really wonderful to workwith individuals in recovery
again and specificallyindividuals who may have some
(10:24):
additional challenges inrecovery from their sexual
identity.
The space that we create inthat group is just really
wonderful and it's it's sorewarding to work with like a
good working group.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Do you look at substance abuse as a disease?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
as a disease?
That's a really good question,matt and I, you know, I think
it's where we certainly have apublic health issue.
I believe that there areindividuals where there is that
genetic predisposition, but Ialso believe and have worked
with individuals that you knowdon't have that family history
(11:10):
and yet develop the disorderfrom, you know, early trauma or
challenges in their environment.
Right, it's kind of thatnurture versus nature argument.
So I think yes, and I thinkthat's probably like the
shortest answer.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I think that's a good answer, because I think there's
still a lot of debate aboutthis.
And is it a disease, or is itsomething we bring on ourselves
and it's not?
I think it's in terms ofanything we could bring on
ourselves.
It's really more, as you said,a reaction to trauma more often.
It does not mean people are weak, is what I'm really hoping to
get at.
You know, we tend to decideweakness is certain
(11:50):
characteristics, and no there's,you know.
You know how many alcoholicsare in Mensa, for instance.
I mean it's right, so all right.
Well, let's get on to our topica little bit, and this is a
topic you brought to myattention which I find really
fascinating Gottman's FourHorsemen.
Is this about death?
What is this about?
Is this about the end of times?
What is Gottman's Four Horsemenof the Apocalypse?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I mean you're not wrong in that, Matthew, right?
I mean with the same name.
It's hard to avoid thosecomparisons.
But I think you know Gottmandid that intentionally.
So he you know, and I can talka little bit more about his work
, but Gottman is a relationshipresearcher, in short, and he
coined the phrase four horsemen,or he appropriated the phrase
(12:36):
four horsemen of the apocalypseto emphasize that these specific
behaviors, these fourbehavioral patterns and
communication will signal theend times of a relationship if
they're not addressed.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
So this is about relationships.
This is about relationships.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Yes, yes, and things that kill relationships right.
Exactly Yep, yep.
And, to be more specific, thework originated from his
research with marriedheterosexual couples, but his
work has really expanded overtime to include gay and lesbian
couples, unmarried couples andalso family systems, to really
(13:17):
understand the drivers ofsuccessful and healthy
relationships in all of thosedifferent systems, and the
important point here is that,regardless of our sexuality and
who we're involved with in ourfamily systems, these four
things are bad for everybody,and for things that everybody
kind of does right.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
We're all guilty of this at some point.
We're going to talk a littlebetter, but first of all, when
did this research come out?
Was this relatively recent, oris Gottman still alive?
I mean, where's this in thespectrum of psychology?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yeah, so Gottman is still alive, he's still doing
his work.
He and his wife, Julie arestill running what is called the
Gottman Institute.
The Gottman Institute actuallystarted as his love lab, so he
has been doing his researchsince the seventies his, his
apartment style.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Oh how seventies, is that name right?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Right, the love lab.
So he had, um, he built anapartment style laboratory that
he used for his research at theuniversity of Washington that he
that he did with couples, andthey would come in and they
would just kind of like hang outfor a week, and there were all
of these cameras situated aroundthe apartment and they would
just collect all of this data,all of this observational data.
(14:30):
They would collect biomarkerdata and physiologic data like
heart rate and urine samples.
So it was really empiricallybased.
Like there was a lot of effortthat went into this, but he's
been doing this, like I said,since the seventies.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Okay, so real quick, just give us the brief outline.
What are the four horsemen ofof the apocalypse, according to
Gottman?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, so the four horsemen, um are, as he
described, the kind of thingsthat would predict dissolution
in relationships, right, thekind of things that would
predict dissolution inrelationships, right, they're
the things that, through hisresearch, he found that, when
present and unaddressed, wouldlead to the breakdown, the
breakup, the end of anyparticular relationship, and
(15:16):
those are criticism,defensiveness, stonewalling and
contempt bitterness,stonewalling and contempt, aha,
those are all things that soundfamiliar to me, that I've
probably done and have had doneto me, right?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I mean, these are, these are not uncommon things,
right?
That's the kind of the point ofthis, right right, right,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We've all engaged in them at some point in our lives.
So I think it's important tokind of normalize this.
This is these things happen,but you know, hopefully the goal
is to become more aware of themso that you can make some
changes.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Well and I think that's part of his study doesn't
just stop at these are theproblems.
He also has solutions to theseproblems that he calls antidotes
.
Right, right, give us a withouttelling us what the antidotes
are.
We're going to break that downafter the break, but there are
solutions to fixing these thingsif we get really bad at them.
Right, talk about that briefly,please.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, exactly so Gottman.
Gottman is a therapist inaddition to a researcher and he
his research, really kind ofstarted from recognizing high
divorce rates, not only in ourcountry but kind of worldwide,
and so he really felt ethicallybound to find a way to change
that right, find a way to helpmarriages, to help couples, and
(16:41):
so he, through his research,really looked to understand the
drivers of successfulrelationships and what
contributed to the demise ofrelationships, and that's kind
of where he identified thesefour horsemen.
But there was so much that camefrom his work.
He's got a whole theory thatwe're now calling the sound
(17:04):
relationship house model andthrough that theory there are
specific interventions, there'straining courses that therapists
can go through to get trainedin the Gottman model.
And I think, more popularly Idon't know if you've heard this,
matthew, but his work inspiredthe magic ratio right when for
(17:28):
every one negative interactionthat you have with someone, it
takes five positive reactions tokind of counter that.
That comes from Gottman's work.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Really?
No, I had not heard that.
So for every one negativeinteraction you got to pay back
the bank.
Five positive interactions.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Right, yeah, he found that in the couples that were
stronger, that they had adisproportionate amount of
positive interactions happeningin their relationship, five
times more than the negativeinteractions, and so that's
where that ratio comes from.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Okay, well, we are going to take a quick break and
then we're going to go and we'regoing to break down these four
horsemen and we're going to giveyou the antidotes.
So hang tight.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Feeling overwhelmed, Struggling to find balance in
your daily life?
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help life.
At Matt Brooks Coaching, we getit and we can help.
With over 25 years of nonprofitexecutive experience and an MSW
with a clinical focus, MattBrooks offers personalized
coaching designed to help yourise above your challenges and
live your best life.
(18:39):
Whether you aim to advance yourcareer, enhance your skills or
simply find more clarity andpeace, Matt is here to be your
partner and ally.
Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
today.
Take the first step towards abrighter tomorrow.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Okay, back with Dr Nicole Zamuda.
We're talking about Gottman'sFour Horsemen of the Apocalypse,
which has to do with killingrelationships.
So let's break these fourhorsemen down right now.
Number one criticism.
How do we define criticism?
I mean, we all know whatcriticism is, but in this case,
how is it defined?
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It's really defined much the same as we would define
it in our lay conversations.
So criticism, per Gottman, iswhen you attack an individual's
character or their personalityrather than express concern or
issue with a particular behavioror source of the conflict.
(19:46):
And in criticism oftentimes wehear things like well, you
always or you never write thesekind of sweeping generalizations
when describing what anotherperson is doing or not doing,
and you know it can soundsomething like well, you never
(20:06):
listened to me or you neverasked me how my day was Right
these kind of blanketgeneralizations instead of
taking issue with, like, oneparticular behavior or
interaction.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So, for those listening right now, let's talk
about how criticism differs fromconstructive feedback, from
both the perspective of theperson giving it and the
perspective of the personreceiving it, because there is a
difference between criticismand constructive feedback, and I
know in my life I rely on mywife to give me constructive
feedback.
(20:41):
There are times when it'scriticism and I just put the
hand up, but I do rely.
We need to hear feedback too,so how does it criticism and
feedback differ?
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah, criticism differs from constructive
feedback often in terms of toneand the content of what's being
said.
So, for example, as I mentioned, criticism involves attacking a
person's character you know whothey are while constructive
(21:13):
feedback really focuses in on,you know, when you left a dirty
dish out on the table right, asopposed to saying why are you so
messy or why are you so lazyand you never clean up, and
there's also, like I said, adifference in the tone.
So criticism is going to be anattack, it's going to be, you
(21:38):
know, almost like anassassination of a person's
character, whereas theconstructive feedback comes at
the issue or the interactionfrom a neutral standpoint.
Maybe one of curiosity.
You know, I noticed that youleft the dish out on the dining
room table, and I'm using thisinteraction because this happens
(22:01):
all the time in my relationship, you know like did you run out
of time to put it in the sink?
You know?
Was it a busy morning, but Iyou know I want to hit this from
both sides, though did you runout of time to put it in the
sink?
Speaker 1 (22:09):
You know, was it a busy morning, but I, you know, I
want to hit this from bothsides though, because I think
relationships problems inrelationships comes from not
only how things are approachedbut how things are received, and
sometimes you can be givingconstructive feedback and
there's an immediate pugnaciousresponse.
That's often because of thebuildup of all the stuff, the
negative things that happen inyour relationship, you know.
(22:30):
So what advice do you have forpeople receiving the feedback in
terms about being disciplinedenough to determine whether it's
constructive feedback orcriticism?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, that's a good one.
So I don't want to get too muchinto defensiveness yet because
I think you know there's someelement of that other horseman
that can rear its ugly head.
Yeah, for sure.
But I think part of the um,part of what I would say, is,
you know, kind of being aware,um of what you're hearing and
checking in with the otherperson.
(23:00):
So there are folks in therelationship world who talk
about um.
I think it's Hendrix who talksabout how to repeat back what
you're hearing so that you'renot responding with what you're
perceiving it as right.
So what I heard you say was andthen try to repeat back exactly
(23:23):
what your partner said to youversus what your interpretation
of that is, because I think ourinterpretations are kind of our
filter, right, communication isa two-way street.
Our filter can affect how wehear it, what we hear and, most
definitely, how we respond.
So I think you know taking apause and saying, okay, well,
(23:45):
here's specifically, here's whatI heard you say to me.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's great advice and actually it brought me to my
training as a therapist.
Because we do that right.
We will reflect back to peoplewhat they're saying, and I've
noticed in my own practicealready I'll reflect back how
I'm hearing someone saysomething, and it's happened a
couple of times now where theclients has said to me you know,
hearing you say it that waymakes me think of it a little
(24:12):
differently.
Right, so that is a that'sprobably a constructive thing to
do in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Now tell me what the antidote is for contempt.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
So the antidote for criticism yes, criticism, sorry,
we're on criticism.
Sorry, I'm looking at the nextone while I'm talking about the
first one.
So antidote for criticism yes.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, so what you want to do is, instead of so, if
you're the person, kind ofgiving the feedback if I want to
approach my husband and takeissue with the dirty glass
that's left out on the kitchentable Instead of coming in like
(24:56):
a bull in a china shop, becausethis isn't the first time that
it's happened.
Right, I've got to keep thatemotional reaction.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
You got to keep your guns in your holsters, as I say.
Right, that's a beautifulmetaphor.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yeah, you got to keep your guns in your holsters, as
I say.
Right, that's a beautifulmetaphor, I love it.
Yeah, you got to keep your gunsin your holster and you want to
use what Gottman calls a gentlestartup.
So you want to use I statementsand you want to make sure that
you are addressing this specificbehavior, right.
(25:26):
So I noticed that you left thedish on the kitchen table, right
.
That's very neutral, veryobjective, and then you can
follow it up with.
That makes me feel frustratedbecause I need to then clean it
up after you leave for the day.
(25:49):
Is there a way that you couldbe more mindful?
Or my request of you is youknow, can you be more mindful to
put your dishes away afterbreakfast?
Very different than why can'tyou just clean up after yourself
?
Why do I have to tell you 10times to put the dish in the
sink, right?
(26:09):
Simple example, but hopefullyfolks can hear the difference in
that delivery.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It takes a lot of discipline, because boy can we
get contemptuous of each otherwhen we're in a relationship
which brings us to number two onthe list contempt right.
This is often considered themost destructive of the four
horsemen right.
How is contempt defined and whyis it considered the most
destructive of the four horsemenright?
How is contempt defined and whyis it?
Speaker 2 (26:31):
considered the most destructive.
Yeah, so contempt is contemptmanifests through feelings of
superiority or belittling inthat relationship.
So it really kind of isreflective of this power
imbalance.
And they're so destructivebecause these behaviors really
(26:59):
kind of belie a level oftentimesof resentment in the
relationship, whether it's Iresent how much money my partner
makes or I resent how well theyget along with their family, or
an inherent insecurity that oneof the persons in the
relationship has.
(27:19):
Whatever it is.
It's just this sense of I'mbetter than you or you're not as
good as, or you're lucky to bewith me, right, like that's not
a good foundation for arelationship and generally, when
that's present, that's a suresignal that it's on its way to
(27:41):
dissolve, which is probably forthe best, because that's not
fodder for a healthyrelationship.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yes, but there are antidotes right.
There are things we can try ifour relationships get to that
point.
What are they?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah.
So if you notice contemptshowing up in your relationship,
right, maybe there is an issuethat's gone unresolved in the
relationship and it's kind ofbreeding some of this resentment
and frustration.
Think back to what we weretalking about before with that
magic ratio, right, for everyone negative interaction, you've
got to counter that with fivepositive interactions with five
(28:23):
positive interactions.
The antidote for contempt isthrough intentionally creating
an environment of respect andappreciation within the
relationship, and so it's beingdeliberate about acknowledging
to your partner in notnecessarily in the context of
conflict, but certainly ifconflict happens.
You want to try to expressappreciation or see the other
(28:46):
person's side, but justgenerally, on a day-to-day,
expressing gratitude or thanksfor what your partner brings to
the table or contributes to therelationship.
Right, I like that because whatthey're bringing to the table
or contributes to therelationship right, like I.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
like that because what they're bringing to the
table, like I, I've noticed inmy life when I've been
contemptuous to people oftenit's because they're not
bringing what I think theyshould be bringing, but it turns
out they're bringing things tothe table Right.
So, uh, yeah, I think this isreally important.
Um and, and frankly, contemptcomes, as you said, from looking
down at people.
So get off your damn high horse, be disciplined to get off your
(29:23):
damn high horse right and seeeach other for who you are and
appreciate each other right.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, and I think you raise a good point in terms of
like what, recognizing that thiskind of comes from not seeing
what you want to see from theother person, and we can get so
caught up in our ownexpectations and the things that
we're not getting that weoverlook the things that we are
getting.
And if we can turn ourattention to those things, they
(29:51):
can make a real differenceinternally in terms of how we're
feeling in the relationship,but also for the relationship
health overall.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Love it, love it.
Okay, number three on the hitlist of four horsemen is
defensiveness.
Who doesn't have a bit of thisin them?
So define defensiveness andlet's just start to find it.
How is this defined?
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, so defensiveness is a way that we,
if we are on the receiving endof feedback, it's a way that we
shift blame or responsibility toother people people in the
relationship, people outside ofthe relationship, people at work
(30:33):
right Like we can shift thatblame anywhere.
And it really is blame anywhereand it really is a lack of
accountability.
And I think you talked about,you know, coaching as a way to
help keep people accountable.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Thanks for the plug.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
You got it.
I think, listen, I thinkeverybody needs an
accountability buddy.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
That's the language that I like to use An
accountability buddy.
I'm going to borrow that.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
You have it.
It just rolls off your tongue,but yeah, so defensiveness is
when you're not takingaccountability and you're saying
it's everybody else's fault,but mine.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Okay, but there's another element to that, and
that's when you're beingattacked, and you're being
attacked unfairly and you can bedefensive, then Is that okay or
is there a better?
You know, I mean, we're goingto get to the antidotes, but I
mean, how does that fall intothis category of you know
someone's pulling contempt onyou when you're being defensive?
Right, I mean, these fourhorsemen don't work independent
(31:29):
of each other.
They all work together, don'tthey right?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
yeah, and gotman's got a whole thing about like
these, how these all kind ofcome together to form these
relationship characteristics orthese categories of
communication patterns andstyles and relationships.
That's for another conversation.
But you're right, if someone'scoming at you with contempt and
they're attacking you, they'recriticizing you, who wouldn't
(31:55):
get defensive?
And I think a lot of that isnatural and it's appropriate to
set boundaries, but I think interms of the context of the
conversation, right, so we cansee defensiveness.
You talked earlier about thatfilter.
So I might say to my husband ifhe's coming home late and he
(32:17):
will every now and then comehome late, and so I'll say to
him, oh you're late again, notintending that as a criticism,
just kind of noticing oh you'relate again and he might, because
his filter is such that hehears it as a criticism.
He might get defensive for noreason.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Because he's remembering you give him a hard
time about that glass on thecounter that he left that
morning right.
So no, I get it, I get it.
So did we talk about what arethe antidotes?
What are other antidotes here?
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah.
So the antidote is to acceptresponsibility where you can,
and that is really difficult.
When I work with individualswho are struggling with
relationship issues, or whenI've worked with couples I
always talk about.
You know, you've got to keepyour side of the street clean.
There's more than one personcreating a mess in the
(33:13):
relationship, but you have theonly thing you can control is
your side of that mess, and so,even if the other person is
responsible for 90%, you stillhave 10% that you can be
responsible or takeaccountability for.
And it can be really tough tobe the bigger person, as it were
(33:36):
, and say you're right, I shouldhave called you or you're right
, I should have put the dish inthe sink.
Even when the other person'slife seems a mess and is
creating a lot of issues withinthe relationship, you still have
to take accountability.
That's the antidote for thatdefensiveness, and that can be
really hard when there's animbalance.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Sure, that can be hard for anybody.
Really All right.
Last one on our list, and thisis the one that I personally
find the most obnoxious.
I really just this is the onethat sets me over the falls.
If you know what I mean, it'scalled stonewalling.
What is the definition, whatdoes it look like and why does
it typically happen?
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I think stonewalling is really interesting because
part of my training as atherapist has been on really
understanding the role thattrauma plays in our lives and
especially in relationships, andwhat we know about stonewalling
from Gottman's work is that itis a defense mechanism similar
(34:39):
to any other defense mechanismsthat people might be familiar
with from the psychology field,like denial, rationalization,
justification, etc.
When we typically seestonewalling, it's in the
context of that conflict, wheresomeone is feeling overwhelmed,
(35:06):
feeling overwhelmed, emotionallyflooded, and they need to
disengage from the conflict orfrom the argument because
they're so reactive, becausethey're so triggered.
What it looks like is maybe itdoes look like rudeness and it
can be.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
some people can just be stonewalling because they're
jerks right, like I'm not goingto say it's always, but but it's
important to know that reallythere can be a different reason
here, and most often is, andit's not that they're being
jerks, they're kind of shuttingdown right.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
Right, because it's a protective mechanism for them.
So what it looks like is kindof avoiding eye contact.
Maybe they are giving one wordanswers like uh-huh, right,
they're not engaging in theconversation.
Or maybe they're just kind ofwalking away from the conflict
altogether.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, this is a rough one because it's hard to
determine which.
And there's a bigger issue thatI'm going to do a show on
someday.
Maybe you can come on it.
It's the concept of ghosting,which I think is really one of
the most horrible things you cando as a person.
Have the courage to tellsomebody you've got a problem,
don't ghost them.
But we'll get into that anothertime.
What are the?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
antidotes for stonewalling.
So, because stonewalling comesfrom being overwhelmed
emotionally, right, Emotionallyflooded, We've got to think back
to ways of self-care andself-soothing.
You had a dietician on yourpodcast a little bit ago and she
(36:36):
talked about mindfulness andmindful eating a little bit ago
and she talked about mindfulnessand mindful eating.
Mindfulness is a great skill tohave to notice when you're
starting to get overwhelmed,when the emotions are rising.
The more you can be aware ofthat, the more you can engage in
(36:57):
things like deep breathing,progressive muscle relaxation.
You can even say you know what.
In things like deep breathing,progressive muscle relaxation,
you can even say you know what.
I'm starting to feel a littleoverwhelmed right now.
Can we come back to thisconversation in maybe like five,
10 minutes?
I need to just take a break,calm myself down, whatever you
need to do to kind ofself-soothe in that situation,
(37:18):
but the important thing, right,it's not ghosting, you don't
leave and then you never comeback, right?
You've got to come back to theconversation to resolve it.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
That's key, and actually I think timeouts are
really helpful.
When you hit the wall with yourpartner or a family member and
you're just, you know, you getto a point where you're so
pissed off that nothing's makingsense.
You just got to step aside fora minute, you know so that so
pissed off that nothing's makingsense.
You just got to step aside fora minute, you know so.
That's great.
Okay, well, we've been runninglong, but here's the good news.
(37:45):
I've got one more question foryou, but I want everybody to
know she doctors and we wascoming back for a second episode
in which we are going to takethis concept of the four
horsemen and broaden it out ofromantic relationships and
family relationships into thesort of this polarized society
we're living in right now andhow these four horsemen are
getting in our way of being amore collaborative society.
(38:05):
But first, before we get off oftoday's topic, I just want to
ask you what are some smallpractical challenges or
exercises that the listenerscould do this week to reduce
even one of these destructivebehaviors?
What's a small thing we allcould do right now?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, so hopefully folks who are listening have
been able to maybe recognizesome of these horsemen in their
relationships and paid attentionto the antidotes that might be
more appropriate for them.
But I believe that practicingthat daily appreciation is a
really good start because notonly does that target contempt,
(38:44):
which is the most destructivehorseman of the four, it also
has positive implications foroverall relationship health
because it's fostering gratitudeand respect.
So, every day being intentionalabout expressing appreciation
or thanks for something thatyour partner has done, like
(39:06):
thank you for making my coffeethis morning, thank you for
bringing in the garbage can fromthe curb right, whatever, it is
to be intentional and make thatacknowledgement.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
And that costs nothing.
That's simple.
I mean I, you know, I married aJersey girl and I'm a
passionate person myself.
So there might be some fightsin our house.
There might be some fights thatyou don't want to see because
they're pretty serious.
But you know, I think we'reboth pretty good at like the
next day, making sure to put alittle bomb on the, on the wound
(39:38):
you know for each other, and Ithink that's, at the end of the
day, that's really what's mostimportant is that you somehow,
despite we're going to get inarguments, we're going to have
contempt, we're going to bedefensive, we're going to have
all these things because we'rein an intimate relationship,
because we're close to eachother.
Familiarity breeds contempt.
Period, end of sentence.
But we also have to takeresponsibility for not only our
(39:58):
own behaviors but for caring Ifwe truly care about the other
person here, to take a littlebit of responsibility for how
they feel and how we make themfeel.
So yeah, we're going to get anugly fights, but we can stop,
take a deep breath and say butyou know what I do love you, or
you know you, thanks for takingcare of that thing yesterday.
(40:18):
That really saved me a fewminutes and you know you thanks
for taking care of that thingyesterday.
That really saved me a fewminutes, and you know, whatever,
find a way to do that, okay.
Well, we are.
That's all we got for today.
We're coming back next weekwith Dr Nicole Zamuda to talk
about this some more.
So thank you for being on today.
Dr Z Um, if you are listening,this is my latest offer.
If you have a topic that youwould like me to cover on this
podcast, shoot me an email.
(40:39):
I'd love to hear from you.
It's matt atmattbrookscoachingcom.
Shoot me an email, let me knowwhat you'd like me to cover and
I will do my best to cover it.
For now, we're just going to,like I said, talk next week
about some ideas about how thesefour horsemen relate to us in a
broader sense of society.
So I hope you'll tune in forthat.
(41:01):
I'm glad you were here today.
I hope you enjoyed today'sconversation.
For now, thanks for listeningand I'll catch you next time on
the Barrier Busting Podcast.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com