December 2, 2024 • 37 mins
Unlock the secrets of a successful career transition with insights from Jamie Stevenson, who shifted her path from teaching high school social studies to becoming a talent acquisition partner. In this episode, we unpack the various types of career pivots—voluntary, necessary, and obligatory—and offer practical guidance on how to leverage your existing skills to excel in new roles. Jamie shares her story and expertise, illustrating how to tailor your resume and present your experience in a way that resonates with potential employers.
Facing the challenge of standing out in a new industry can be daunting, yet it's also an opportunity to bring fresh perspectives and transferable skills to the table. We discuss why you should consider applying for jobs even if you don't tick every box on the list of requirements. Think of job postings as a wish list rather than a checklist. Employers often value diverse experiences and soft skills that don't always fit neatly into a job description, and we’ll tell you how to make yourself an attractive candidate by showcasing these strengths.
For those over 50, tackling ageism in job applications can be a significant hurdle. We offer strategies to showcase your value and align with a company's mission and values. By emphasizing passion, curiosity, and a robust skill set while navigating the fear of making a career change, this episode aims to empower you to take control of your professional journey. Listen in as we explore networking, research, and taking action to make your dream career a reality, because the only limits are the ones you set for yourself.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
fascinated with how peopleovercome barriers and achieve
success.
Join me for insights,strategies and inspiring stories
(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
All right, we are back at theBarrier Busting Podcast.
(00:55):
I'm Matt Brooks and we're happyto have you with us.
Thanks for listening.
We started last week with atalent acquisition partner, or
what we used to call a jobrecruiter, jamie Stevenson, and
she is back with us for part twoof our discussion.
We have been talking aboutpivoting for the last several
weeks, and today we're going totalk about her role and her
(01:18):
advice more specifically gearedtowards pivoting, and for those
of us who are out there doing apivot or thinking about pivots,
just to remind you, jamieStevenson was a high school
social studies teacher for 13years and then she pivoted
herself into work as a talentacquisition partner, has spent
six years recruiting acrossdiverse industries.
(01:40):
She began her career at a smallagency in New Jersey
specializing in technical rolesand has since worked directly
with tech startups in healthtech, fintech and cybersecurity,
where her role is to attractand retain top talent.
Jamie, great to see you again.
Thanks for joining me for yetanother episode.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, happy to be here.
Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Let's just get right into pivoting now, because I've
been talking about job pivoting,and you know pivoting is both
exciting and terrifying.
Right?
It's a really tricky thing, and, just so you know, I've
identified three types of pivotsin my series.
There's the I want to, which ispeople that just would like a
(02:22):
change.
There's the I need to, which ispeople who could stay in their
jobs but they're like they justcan't take it anymore.
They got to do something else.
And then there's the I have to,people in particular, who've
been forced out of their jobs orlaid off and they need to make
a pivot.
There's a process, though, forthose who want to and need to in
(02:43):
particular, that they have togo through to figure out what to
do, how to do it.
So let's talk about thisprocess and get some advice from
you.
When you decide you're going topivot, all right, you're,
obviously, if you're not goingto go specifically into the same
job with another company, butyou're going to change slightly
(03:06):
what advice do you have foridentifying and communicating
transferable skills when movinginto a new industry or role?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, I mean you obviously need to figure out,
like, what type of a role, likewhat is the pivot Is it?
Is it a career, like a titlechange, or is it an industry
change?
Like you know, you kind of haveto organize yourself as far as,
like, what type of a pivot isthis?
Um, and then you know in yourjob search, like I always tell
(03:34):
you know, friends, candidates,um, when I was, especially when
I was working at agency, um, youknow I was servicing a lot of
different clients, working on alot of different kinds of roles.
But I would say you want tolook at the job description and
the company and their corevalues, and always you tweak
your resume for each role thatyou're applying for to really
(03:55):
showcase and highlight theskills they're looking for and
the skills that you possess.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And get somebody to bounce ideas off with, because
sometimes you might not see askill in a broader sense, but
someone might go oh wait aminute, you did this.
It works in this way, you know,am I right?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I my uh good coworker ofmine, uh a good friend and
coworker of mine, uh, from myprevious role.
Um, I'm in actually in atransition, I'm starting a new
role.
On Monday she was at thecompany I was just at as well,
and she started a couple weeksback, but we were both on the
job search together and reallyhelped each other recognize like
(04:35):
wow, yeah, like I could putthis in my resume, like I forgot
, yeah, I did that, and the waythat she worded it too was just
so much more, you know,captivating than I had in my
head or than you know.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So it's definitely good to have a sounding board
and you know your skills thatare specific to one job can
apply to many other jobs in abroader sense, and you just need
to widen your vision with thema little bit and think through.
And I'm not talking aboutbullshitting, I'm talking about
just looking at those skills andseeing how they really have you
prepared for much more thanjust the specifics of the gig
(05:10):
you were in.
Okay, here's a good one.
I think we all want to knowwhat might scare an employer off
from hiring someone who'spivoting from another industry
or role.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
What might scare them off?
Lack of experience is theobvious one.
Um, maybe needing too muchcoaching, and you know the
manager may not have the time orthe bandwidth or, you know,
motivation to do that.
Um, I do see that especially inlean environments.
I've been in, like I said, techstartups.
It's a very lean environment sothey like people to come in and
(05:44):
, as they say, hit the groundrunning.
You know that don't require alot of ramp up and training, but
usually that's somebody that'sat that mid senior plus level.
Obviously, if you're applyingto something that's entry level,
it should be implied and maybeit's not always, I know I've
seen lots of jokes and memesabout this.
Like, entry level means thatthere is going to be coaching
(06:08):
and training available on thejob and you know, if the hiring
manager or the recruiter thatyou speak to you know says the
opposite, then it's not an entrylevel job.
You know it's not.
It's not that that basic level,that level one.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
That's good to know.
I didn't know that.
Entry level, you know, justinherently means there'll be
training that comes with that.
So that's good to know, I meanit makes sense.
But what might?
Now let's go the other side ofthis coin.
What might turn an employer onfor hiring someone from another
industry or role?
I mean, how can candidatesstand out when recruiters to
(06:45):
recruiters when they come from adifferent industry or role?
I mean, how can candidatesstand out when recruiters to
recruiters when they come from adifferent industry or have a
nonlinear career path.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I would say, something that would stand out
is and this is what I love toois diversity right.
Diversity of experience, ofmindset, and just a different
frame of reference that you canbring to the table that may not
already be there.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So that'll pop out at you from the page.
You'll see that from the resumeor from their cover letter or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Not necessarily, um, you know, just by knowing like,
oh, this person is coming from adifferent industry or role,
like you know.
But but some of these softskills apply, that's that's
appealing.
You know that could bring adifferent perspective.
You know, you kind of assumethat.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Okay.
Are there industries or rolesthat are more open to hiring
pivoters than others?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's kind of a broad question.
I think it really depends onthe company and you know the
company and you know what it isand the role itself that they're
looking for.
I'd say that there are certainjobs where, yeah, there is that
ability to sort of apply, solike, for instance, recruiting,
(08:02):
like you know, I think that thatis an easy one.
I don't say that sort ofdisqualifying myself here, but
you know, I was able totransition from teaching to you
know recruiting, because it'snot like there's a super hard
(08:23):
skill that you've got the peopleskills you can communicate and
you're resourceful and you know,you know how to do a search and
you can use some social mediaand whatnot.
You know you can get trained up.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, see, I like to ask a lot of stupid questions,
because I find that stupidquestions, the simple things
that we think should be obvious,always have an answer.
That'll have something in therethat's not so obvious, and in
this case, I think a lot ofpeople are afraid to take a risk
and go into something else, butthat they should give it a shot
.
You know that there aretransferable skills that
(08:56):
companies are more willing tolook at than we realize.
I mean, yeah, if you're hiringsomeone for coding, then they
got to know coding.
But you know how important youjust because you just mentioned
it how important is formaleducation and certification when
pivoting to a different career,and when does experience alone
suffice?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, again, I think that is sort of depends on the
role and what, what they'relooking for.
But a lot of times from my own,you know, unless unless a
hiring manager or company or hrrequires that there's like a
degree involved um, you know, Idon't look at that, it's more
(09:36):
about the experience to me.
You know you gain.
I personally feel like you gainmore experience on a job than
you do in the classroom becauseyou're actually hands on doing
it.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I remember going into my MSW degree to study to
become a therapist and atherapist I knew said you
understand, you're not going tolearn a thing about therapy in
this degree.
Right, and that's, that's thecase.
Yeah, so when?
I guess what I'm getting at iswhen we say when we, when we see
on a job posting, uh, degree insuch and such preferred.
(10:08):
When the word says preferred.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I always say go for it.
I always, you know, I say applyeven if you're um, you know you
don't meet every criteria.
Yeah, it can't hurt because,again, keep in mind that that
job posting is a Christmas list.
They want, you know that is theperfect candidate, which
doesn't exist.
So I always say take the shot.
(10:33):
Even if you have a couple ofyears less experience or you
know you don't have that degree,go for it.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Well, I think that's really great to know that what
she said, that was in our lastepisode and saying it again here
, that you know a job posting isa Christmas list, because I
think some people get to.
I know I have I've not appliedfor things I probably could have
at least got an interview forin retrospect, just because I'm
like I don't have some of thethings on this, this list, but
(11:02):
it's a christmas list, it's notthey're.
You know they're writing theperfect candidate but they're
never going to find that.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So you know it's like buying a house, right right
like when you're on the marketlooking for a house.
There's certain things you'regoing to have to concede on.
You're not.
Usually you're not going to geteverything especially in jersey
.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
What can you waver on ?
Yeah, exactly, conceding onseveral things.
All right, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Let's talk about one thing I do want to, can I just I
wanted to say something about,like, when you're applying for
that job that you you know maynot be the perfect you know fit
on paper for, or there's certainthings that you're lacking.
One piece of advice I I wouldlike to offer the audience is
you know you apply for that job,look for the hiring manager on
(11:45):
LinkedIn, um, who is hiring forthat job, or the recruiter
that's owning that job, but Iwould say the hiring manager is
going to be more effective andsend them a message.
This is a super effective wayto gain the attention of you
know the hiring team, um, andsell yourself.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So that doesn't come off as sleazy in any way.
That's a really a positivething to do.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Oh yeah, and I see it more and more and I can't tell
you how many times I've hadhiring managers reach out to me
as the recruiter and say, hey,this person said they applied,
they reached out to me and youknow, I think they sound really
motivated.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You know I'd like to talk to them.
Set up an interview.
It's happened more like it'shappened a lot.
Excellent, oh, that's reallygood to know.
So go ahead and have thechutzpah to reach out to those
hiring managers through theirsocial media account.
I love that.
Um, what are key changes aperson should make to their
resume and to their LinkedIn andtheir personal branding?
I mean, obviously, we do knowyou want to tailor your resume
to whatever job you're lookingat, but what are things that you
(12:53):
see that are common mistakespeople make?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Um, common mistakes like, let's say, if you're
pivoting specifically you want.
One thing that drives me crazyas the recruiter is when your
LinkedIn doesn't match yourresume and I'm not saying that,
like, it has to be word for word, verbatim, because I see
LinkedIn more as a marketingtool than really a way to, you
(13:21):
know, apply for jobs per se oras a resume.
Right, your resume is yourresume, that's what you're
applying to the job for.
The LinkedIn is to sort ofenhance and market yourself as
to, like what you're good at,what you can do.
But you do want to have jobtitles matching.
You do want to have dates.
Um, you know, in years ofemployment and all of that stuff
, you want it to match.
(13:44):
Um, a lot, of, a lot of timesI'll look at a resume and be
like, wow, this is really,really great.
And then I go to LinkedIn andI'm like, wait, this doesn't add
up.
And then let's say, if thecandidate does make it through,
this is where sometimes they'llmess up on those background
checks.
And we've had folks we'verescinded offers from folks
because of their lack ofintegrity, or they're trying to
embellish or stretch out datesto fill in a gap of employment.
(14:05):
Um, you know that is notsomething I recommend and I say,
you know, be very careful withthat Um.
But you know, when trying topivot and transition, I would
say just try to highlight andhave at the top of your bulleted
list of skills the ones thatare most applicable to the role
you're applying for.
(14:26):
You know, that would be myrecommendation.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
But your other recommendation is really careful
with the bullshit, careful withthe hyperbole, oh yeah, because
especially nowadays that can befound.
We can find out that stuff.
So present yourself who you areand try to.
I mean, we all have to sellourselves.
We have to use hyperbole tosome extent, but if you're lying
on your resume it's going toget found, right, that's what
(14:54):
you're saying.
Okay, this is a perfect placefor us to take a quick break,
because when we come back, weare going to talk more about
this, only from an angle thatI'm pretty passionate about, and
that is what happens whenyou're pivoting after the age of
50.
Back in a second.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
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(15:38):
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Speaker 1 (16:01):
Don't I have the best voiceover artist for that ad?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I was gonna say I recognize that I get a lot of
compliments on that voice andpeople think I spent big money
to hire that voice artist.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Voiceover artist and I guess you could say I did, but
um, all right, we're back, um,and now I want to get into a a
little bit of a awkward,uncomfortable area, but it's
really important.
I did a whole show a few weeksago on pivoting over 50 and
ageism, and I want to get intothis area of ageism, not to put
(16:34):
you in an uncomfortable position.
I know you need to be careful,but I want to see if you can
give us some advice that mighthelp.
First, though, I want to set itup with some numbers that I
gave in this episode I did a fewweeks ago, because they are
pretty startling, okay.
So, according to ProPublica andthe Urban Institute, more than
half of the workers in thiscountry who are over 50 are
(16:55):
pushed out of employment, andonly one in 10 of those are
going to recover.
Okay, 28% of stable, stable,long-time employees sustain at
least one layoff between the ageof 50 and retirement.
56% of that job loss isemployer driven.
Okay, so that 56% breaks down28% from layoffs, 15% due to
(17:17):
something called deterioratingconditions I still don't know
what that means and 13% due tosomething called classified as
unexpected retirement, which tome is just they got pushed out.
Okay.
Information from the US CensusBureau states that there are
over 40 million workers in thiscountry over the age of 50.
And of those, it's predicted 22million will likely suffer
(17:39):
layoffs, forced retirement orinvoluntary separations from
their jobs.
And here's the reallyfrightening thing Of that 22
million, it's predicted thatonly 2 million will recover.
I'm not going to ask you theobvious question, which is why
do we do this to people over 50,?
Because it doesn't make anysense to me, especially now that
(17:59):
we're living longer andhealthier lives.
50 is often when people, Ithink, are at the height of
their game.
They're at the top of theirgame, but for some reason we
have this arbitrary number of 50, and it is a reality.
It's a real thing and it is, asBill Maher said, the last
acceptable prejudice ageism.
So the one thing that we dohave at 50, if we have to
(18:25):
reinvent, is we got a lot ofexperience.
We have extensive experience bythat age, typically.
So how is extensive experiencelike that viewed when
transitioning to a new role orfield, and what would you
suggest a person does tohighlight that in a positive way
?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, that is.
It's a good question, it'sdefinitely a tricky.
It's a tricky subject because Iwould say that extensive
experience is obviously can beheld in high esteem, but then I
think also hiring managers mayfeel threatened, right?
Especially if they'repotentially younger, right?
(19:05):
So there, I think that's whysometimes this ageism exists.
There's this fear that like, oh, what if they're better than me
?
What if they know more than me,right?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Oh, I just got the truth finally came out right.
That's a lot to do with it.
And salary right.
Your hiring manager thinksthey're going to expect to be
paid commensurate with theirexperience and that's not what
we're looking to do.
So what can you tell theapplicant, the person over 50
who's applying?
What can they do to put thathiring manager at ease, to put
that that owner of that companyor that that boss, that CEO, at
(19:36):
ease?
What can they do to get themessage out that they're not
necessarily looking for thesalary that the people might?
I mean you don't want to sayI'm not looking for good pay,
but how do you, how do you comeacross in a way that says, look,
I'm going to be a team member?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, no, I think one thing that all candidates, no
matter what the age is like,make sure you really understand
the company, what their missionis, what their values are, and
speak to that, whether it's in,you know, I don't.
I don't really like coverletters.
That's a whole other subject wehaven't really talked about.
But if you are going to submita cover letter, you know you can
(20:13):
speak to that, you know.
Or if you're going to email thehiring manager or the recruiter
or reach out to them onLinkedIn, like I'd mentioned
before, like speak to thosethings you know.
Here's why I want to join yourorganization, like I'm very pat,
you know.
Again, it comes down to thatpassion, that curiosity, um,
that you know, not just lookingfor a competitive salary but
(20:34):
looking for the opportunitylooking for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
That's the key right there.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
And.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I'm just going to pause you briefly.
I want to back up cover letter.
All right, let's not get intothe whole reasons why you don't
like cover letters.
But if you don't have a coverletter, how do you communicate
this?
Is it that you're reaching outon social media and over email?
I mean, if the cover letter istypically the place where your
resume is, the place where youconvey your skills and
(20:59):
experience, the cover letter isthe place where you get to
convey your passion often, yeah.
So if the cover letter is nolonger effective.
How do we do that?
How do we get that across?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
I advise that you put a summary on the top of your
resume, almost like what is yourobjective for applying for the
job, and summarize it againsuccinctly there.
You know why.
You know whatever the companyname is, why you know I'm
interested in this role.
I feel like I could be a valuebecause of X, y and Z.
(21:31):
You know and speak to not justthe job that you're applying to,
but also the overall, like corevalues and the mission of the
company itself.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
What subtle thing can somebody say in that or in
their interviews or whateverthat will let the company know
that they already understandthat they're pivoting and that
means they have to take a fewsteps back, like we talked about
in the last episode, and thatthey are not expecting they be
paid equally to what they werepaid in their last role.
(21:58):
They want to get their foot inthe door and work really hard.
What, how?
How do we get that point acrosswithout saying those words?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
You know you could say, like I've seen on on
resumes and in those likesummaries and objectives, where
it's like you know I havediverse experience, you know
working as an IC, like anindividual contributor,
management and I'm a team playerand willing to start I wouldn't
say start at a basic level, butin some ways, you know, use
(22:31):
some verbiage that talks aboutlike willing to, to learn and
you know, again, begin as likean individual contributor and,
you know, look forward togrowing within the team and the
company.
You know something along thoselines also have had in my head
(22:54):
but haven't mentioned in thispodcast, is I love to use you
may hate this I love to use AIand chat GPT to try to really
get a good um way to convey mythoughts.
Um, especially when it comes towriting, you know, formal,
whether it's like resume or youknow um a blurb or a summary,
it's super helpful.
So I, for the record.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Don't hate it because I use it myself, but I don't
like I use it.
I used it for some of myquestions, for this podcast in
fact, and but I don't take.
I don't take what it saysverbatim.
I take what it says as givingme a starting point for me to
write everything in my own words, and that's that's what.
I use.
Oh my God, are you kidding?
I mean, these are tools thatnow exist to make our lives.
(23:33):
You know, I look at it as athinking tool, right?
I think a lot of.
I know.
I was just talking to a formerprofessor of mine yesterday
who's like you wouldn't believethe rash of papers I'm getting
now that are just literallystraight out of it.
That's not what I'm talkingabout, but a thinking tool.
Okay, are there any qualitiesor contributions that people you
(23:55):
know make throughout theircareers that employers
particularly value more now inmature candidates?
Are there any?
That may be a stupid question.
There may be no answer to that,but is there a way?
I'm always looking to find waysthat older people can stand out
, because I'm an older personand I love older people yeah
right no, I'm, I'm not far farfrom that either, matthew.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So, um, I would say, uh, you know kind of how I look
at, like, like folks that areconsultants, um, you can kind of
compare that to the folks thathave been, you know, that are,
uh, progressed in their career.
They have a diverse skill likeamount of diverse experience.
They've been exposed to a lotof challenges and ebbs and flow
(24:40):
in the market, in the job right,in changing technology, and
they've, you know, beenresilient through that right.
They've been able to navigatethose changes.
But also, having that longevityin a career, you've picked up a
lot of skills, hard skills,soft skills and you can use that
(25:03):
to market yourself.
But I guess one thing that I cansee in a resume is longevity in
a role.
How long were you at a companyand you took them from point A
to point B?
Like, what I always love to seein a resume is like the numbers
right.
So many companies are datadriven right now and they
specifically say, like every jobdescription I feel like I help
(25:26):
craft or that I read when I'mapplying, is, like you know,
data driven recruiter, or usesdata and metrics to drive change
or implement change or whatever.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,that jargon.
But seeing the real numbers, um, you know, on the resume and
being able to speak to that,like I made an impact that drove
revenue from X you know, fromum, from you know, uh, a to B or
(25:51):
whatever the case may be, likethat kind of stuff, I think
really really does help showyour impact right and the impact
you've made in the roles thatyou've held.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Excellent.
Now what should you avoid whenyou're over 50 and you're
applying for a job?
What should you leave out?
Like you know, I know I haveone in mind that I want to
mention about resumes, butbefore I say it what?
What do you think people over50 should avoid?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, anybody, whether, no matter what your age
, avoid anything personal, likenothing bothers me more on a
resume.
Somebody putting like I enjoyreading and hiking in my spare
time, Like I always say like.
Keep it professional, even whenyou're asked to do that
elevator pitch.
Do not mention anythingpersonal.
Oh my God, let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I had a rule when I was hiring people in my former
career and I hired people allthe time.
If anybody in an interview saidI'm a people person, they were
done, I would not hire them.
You know what I mean.
I don't want to hear what kindof person you are, I want to see
it.
Do you know what?
I mean, and so I agree with youon the personal side, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, yeah, but as far as and what was the question
?
Again, how?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I'm like what should?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
we avoid.
What should people?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
avoid.
So one tip I could say, like ifyou're worried about the ageism
which definitely as we all, youknow, your numbers proved it it
exists in the workplace, is youcan tailor your resume so that
it doesn't project your ageRight, um.
So one piece of advice I giveuh, you know, friends,
(27:20):
candidates, whoever anybody likeyou know looking to make a
change or revamping their resumeis you really only need to
provide your last 10 years ofexperience, not even like seven,
I think.
In my last company thebackground check went no longer
than seven years, but I alwayssay 10 years, right, 10 years
past experience is what youreally need to speak to on your
(27:41):
resume.
And then you can put a line inat the bottom to you know, to
weed out, like how old you are,that says, like you know, prior
experience available uponrequest.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Right, that's perfect .
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Something along those lines where you're not giving
away your age.
You're not.
You know that bias won't existwhen the recruiter or the hiring
manager is looking at yourresume.
And you don't need to put datesof when you graduated college,
although some applicationsystems may require it, but
unless they do, you don't haveto put that.
If you earned a degree, justsay, like earned a degree from
(28:14):
this college and this was thedegree, you don't have to put
the years.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
And I wanted to bring that point up.
That was my point for people?
Um, because the agediscrimination and employment
act exists to protect peoplefrom ageism but it turns out
that on average, at least overthe last decade, only about two
and a half percent of casesbrought on that act have been
seen to have cause.
Because it's really easy tohide ageism and one of the ways
(28:41):
is what are the dates of yourdegrees?
So you graduate from highschool in 1988, we know your age
.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And so.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I always say take the dates off unless they
specifically request them takethe dates off.
So I'm glad to hear you say thesame thing.
Um, if the only thing thatbothers me about just the last
10 years is, if you haveextensive 30 years of experience
, you're not selling your.
It seems to me like you're notselling yourself as well as you
could, or are you?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You can.
Uh, well, that's where you canalso write in your summary, you
know, your sort of progressionof experience, or at the end of
the resume.
There's a lot of ways to playaround with this.
If that's a concern that youhave is you want to show that
progression right and that hardwork that you've done.
You could say, like previousexperience available upon upon
(29:33):
requests, and you know wouldinclude, you know, um, whatever,
though, those path roles, are,but in a very general way, I see
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and or,like I said, in your summer you
could say, like you know, kickedoff my career, as you know, I
don't know, a projectcoordinator, blah blah, and then
, like you know, through throughthe years, have you know, have
(29:57):
progressed to, you know, adirector of project management
or you know a PMO, like head ofPMO or something like that, you
know.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
All right.
So you know, I know it's.
This is a tough topic becausewe all have to be careful.
But I'm not a hiring person.
I have my own small businessand I talk about ageism because
I see it all the time and it'sterribly offensive to me because
there's a hell of a lot ofpeople I know in their 50s and
(30:26):
60s who are extraordinarilytalented people and it seems
like a lot of talent andexpertise to be wasting.
So I really hope that I'm gonnabe pounding this drum for a
long time.
I hope we can find a way tomake the last acceptable
prejudice no longer acceptable.
But that's enough of mypontificating for the day.
I got one last question for you,jamie.
Back to pivoting in general.
(30:47):
A lot of people wanna pivot.
They have a dream, they dreamabout it, they want to get out
of the rut they're in orwhatever, but they're, frankly,
scared to do it.
Now I've given some advice onhow to go about this, but for
those people that really aren'tfulfilled in their lives and
want to pivot but they're scaredto pivot, do you have any
(31:09):
thoughts for them?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
to pivot.
Do you have any thoughts forthem?
I, I mean, that was me, andthen I was kind of in that mode
I know you talked about thethree different types of pivots
where, like I had to, I had todo it in order to maintain, you
know, stability for my kids andthe lifestyle that they were
used to leading Um, so I waskind of forced into it.
Otherwise, I think I probablywould have just been afraid and
not done it, um, frankly, youknow, probably would have just
been afraid and not done it,frankly, you know, and would
have just like gone with what Iknew.
But it's always, you know, thefear of the unknown really is
(31:39):
what I think prevents peoplefrom actually making that jump.
But I would say, you know, andthis is something I did talk to
people reach out to you know,people that you know that are
doing it, or even people thatyou don't know, like it's funny,
you know people that you knowthat are doing it, or even
people that you don't know, likeit's funny, on LinkedIn, I'll
get people that reach out to meabout, you know, not getting a
(31:59):
role at my company.
They just want to pick my brainon, kind of like what we're
talking about today, like what'sa good, and you know, sometimes
those connections can lead tobigger opportunities, you know.
So I would say reach out to youknow, either, and you can look
at school, like if there'ssomething specific you're
looking into or you'repassionate about that you want
to pivot into, like look atprograms online.
(32:23):
Or you know local schools andwhatnot, and talk to you know
professors or folks over atthose departments, like, what is
it going to take?
You know and I think, matthew,you could probably speak to this
as far as what you did in yourpivot, you know, getting that
insight of, like, what is itgoing to take for me to do it?
Like, do I have it in me to doit?
(32:43):
Is it worth it?
You know, and just gather thatinformation and educate yourself
as best you can about what thatyou know pivot will entail what
the role entails, like what arethe?
You know, if you do have to goback to school, what are the
courses you have to take, isthat something you want to
commit yourself to?
Or you know, also, you need tokeep in mind, like, am I willing
(33:03):
to start over?
Am I willing to potentiallytake a pay cut?
You know to.
Am I that passionate about itand am I that unhappy in my
current career that that'ssomething that I can justify?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
But what I'm trying to get at, though, is the fear
that holds people back, because,yes, there are all those things
.
Looking at the I talked aboutthis in my first episode in this
series you know all the sort ofthings you got to go through in
terms of what it's going tocost, what the financial
ramifications are, do you needmore training, what that's going
(33:37):
to cost, but but really, in theend of the day, it's about the
fear.
I think for a lot of people andyou know I'm going to say the
obvious.
You have one life, we have onelife to live, you know.
But you said something to meand when we were doing a
pre-interview that I thought waspretty important for people
that are thinking about pivotingdon't wait, do it.
Yeah, the earlier you do it thebetter, because as someone who
pivoted in his 50s, I can tellyou it's, it's a lot harder than
had I done it in my 30s, youknow.
(33:58):
So if you just if you're unhappy, don't quit your job, but start
doing the research.
Listen to my podcast, getonline there's plenty of books
and and materials on this youcan find with a simple Google
search and just start lookingthrough all the angles of
pivoting.
But don't be afraid to take theleap, because you get only one
(34:19):
shot at this life right, and weoften waste some of it.
We all do, we're guilty of that.
But if you really if it's inyour heart, if you're hearing
those messages that it's time topivot, that doesn't mean you
got to quit your job today.
It just means that the universeis sending you a message and
you need to start listening andlooking and reading and
researching and networking, asyou said, and I love the idea
(34:42):
that you say people who youdon't even know will just reach
out to you for advice and you'recomfortable with that.
You're cool with that, right.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, when I have the time.
I don't necessarily it's not myfirst priority to get back to
them, but I do try to becauseyou know, especially in what I
do, it's all about.
You know, networking and youknow, uh, getting word out there
.
Part of my role also is likeblasting on on.
So on LinkedIn, you know theopen roles and the more
connections I have on LinkedIn,the more that word is going to
(35:12):
get out there and I'm going tobe able to more easily find my
perfect candidate, whether it'sthey directly, you know are
connected to me, or somebody youknow sends my post to that
person because I'm connected tothem.
You know it's all about that.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
And keep the network.
It's absolutely.
I have a friend who pivoted inhis early fifties.
He's a business generalist andhe was very successful, but he
decided to pivot.
He took 150 interviews and theonly even hit he got of any
interest was from a company thatknew him.
So you know, that's anotherreality that we we didn't talk a
lot about in this show.
(35:44):
But yeah a lot of times thatit's not.
It's not so um, it's not sosleazy that we sometimes think
you can only get a job if youhave a connection.
It's just people stuff.
We don't want to.
We're, we're all afraid ofstrangers, period, End of story.
And so you know, knowing peopleit isn't necessarily about
(36:05):
having them do you a favor, it'sabout them being more
comfortable with you.
So knowing people, reaching outto people is good, all right.
Well, these have been two greatshows and got a lot of
information from you.
I can't thank you enough and,yes, we're going to have you
back.
We're definitely going to haveyou back to talk about a few
other topics at some point, butthank you again, jamie.
Really I appreciate you beingon.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
No, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
All right, everybody.
Thanks again for tuning in.
I hope you enjoyed this.
If you did, please hit thatfollow or subscribe button.
Next week we're going to changetopics.
We've just done a long serieson pivoting.
Next week, we're going to do acouple quick shows on time
management skills, something I'msure we all can improve and
something that's reallyimportant in terms of how we use
(36:49):
our time effectively andefficiently.
I've got some really good tipsand tricks for you, so be sure
to check it out.
For now, be well, and I'llcatch you next time on the
Barrier Busting Podcast.
Thank you.
Are you feeling stuck ?
Is something holding you back?
Are there obstacles in your way?
Well, let's smash through thoseobstacles so that you can live
your best life.
Hi, I'm Matt Brooks, founder ofMatt Brooks Coaching, and I'm
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(00:34):
as we explore practical tipsand powerful tools to unlock
your full potential.
This is the Barrier BustingPodcast.
All right, we are back at theBarrier Busting Podcast.
(00:55):
I'm Matt Brooks and we're happyto have you with us.
Thanks for listening.
We started last week with atalent acquisition partner, or
what we used to call a jobrecruiter, jamie Stevenson, and
she is back with us for part twoof our discussion.
We have been talking aboutpivoting for the last several
weeks, and today we're going totalk about her role and her
(01:18):
advice more specifically gearedtowards pivoting, and for those
of us who are out there doing apivot or thinking about pivots,
just to remind you, jamieStevenson was a high school
social studies teacher for 13years and then she pivoted
herself into work as a talentacquisition partner, has spent
six years recruiting acrossdiverse industries.
(01:40):
She began her career at a smallagency in New Jersey
specializing in technical rolesand has since worked directly
with tech startups in healthtech, fintech and cybersecurity,
where her role is to attractand retain top talent.
Jamie, great to see you again.
Thanks for joining me for yetanother episode.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, happy to be here.
Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Let's just get right into pivoting now, because I've
been talking about job pivoting,and you know pivoting is both
exciting and terrifying.
Right?
It's a really tricky thing, and, just so you know, I've
identified three types of pivotsin my series.
There's the I want to, which ispeople that just would like a
(02:22):
change.
There's the I need to, which ispeople who could stay in their
jobs but they're like they justcan't take it anymore.
They got to do something else.
And then there's the I have to,people in particular, who've
been forced out of their jobs orlaid off and they need to make
a pivot.
There's a process, though, forthose who want to and need to in
(02:43):
particular, that they have togo through to figure out what to
do, how to do it.
So let's talk about thisprocess and get some advice from
you.
When you decide you're going topivot, all right, you're,
obviously, if you're not goingto go specifically into the same
job with another company, butyou're going to change slightly
(03:06):
what advice do you have foridentifying and communicating
transferable skills when movinginto a new industry or role?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, I mean you obviously need to figure out,
like, what type of a role, likewhat is the pivot Is it?
Is it a career, like a titlechange, or is it an industry
change?
Like you know, you kind of haveto organize yourself as far as,
like, what type of a pivot isthis?
Um, and then you know in yourjob search, like I always tell
(03:34):
you know, friends, candidates,um, when I was, especially when
I was working at agency, um, youknow I was servicing a lot of
different clients, working on alot of different kinds of roles.
But I would say you want tolook at the job description and
the company and their corevalues, and always you tweak
your resume for each role thatyou're applying for to really
(03:55):
showcase and highlight theskills they're looking for and
the skills that you possess.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And get somebody to bounce ideas off with, because
sometimes you might not see askill in a broader sense, but
someone might go oh wait aminute, you did this.
It works in this way, you know,am I right?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I my uh good coworker ofmine, uh a good friend and
coworker of mine, uh, from myprevious role.
Um, I'm in actually in atransition, I'm starting a new
role.
On Monday she was at thecompany I was just at as well,
and she started a couple weeksback, but we were both on the
job search together and reallyhelped each other recognize like
(04:35):
wow, yeah, like I could putthis in my resume, like I forgot
, yeah, I did that, and the waythat she worded it too was just
so much more, you know,captivating than I had in my
head or than you know.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So it's definitely good to have a sounding board
and you know your skills thatare specific to one job can
apply to many other jobs in abroader sense, and you just need
to widen your vision with thema little bit and think through.
And I'm not talking aboutbullshitting, I'm talking about
just looking at those skills andseeing how they really have you
prepared for much more thanjust the specifics of the gig
(05:10):
you were in.
Okay, here's a good one.
I think we all want to knowwhat might scare an employer off
from hiring someone who'spivoting from another industry
or role.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
What might scare them off?
Lack of experience is theobvious one.
Um, maybe needing too muchcoaching, and you know the
manager may not have the time orthe bandwidth or, you know,
motivation to do that.
Um, I do see that especially inlean environments.
I've been in, like I said, techstartups.
It's a very lean environment sothey like people to come in and
(05:44):
, as they say, hit the groundrunning.
You know that don't require alot of ramp up and training, but
usually that's somebody that'sat that mid senior plus level.
Obviously, if you're applyingto something that's entry level,
it should be implied and maybeit's not always, I know I've
seen lots of jokes and memesabout this.
Like, entry level means thatthere is going to be coaching
(06:08):
and training available on thejob and you know, if the hiring
manager or the recruiter thatyou speak to you know says the
opposite, then it's not an entrylevel job.
You know it's not.
It's not that that basic level,that level one.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
That's good to know.
I didn't know that.
Entry level, you know, justinherently means there'll be
training that comes with that.
So that's good to know, I meanit makes sense.
But what might?
Now let's go the other side ofthis coin.
What might turn an employer onfor hiring someone from another
industry or role?
I mean, how can candidatesstand out when recruiters to
(06:45):
recruiters when they come from adifferent industry or role?
I mean, how can candidatesstand out when recruiters to
recruiters when they come from adifferent industry or have a
nonlinear career path.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I would say, something that would stand out
is and this is what I love toois diversity right.
Diversity of experience, ofmindset, and just a different
frame of reference that you canbring to the table that may not
already be there.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
So that'll pop out at you from the page.
You'll see that from the resumeor from their cover letter or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Not necessarily, um, you know, just by knowing like,
oh, this person is coming from adifferent industry or role,
like you know.
But but some of these softskills apply, that's that's
appealing.
You know that could bring adifferent perspective.
You know, you kind of assumethat.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Okay.
Are there industries or rolesthat are more open to hiring
pivoters than others?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
That's kind of a broad question.
I think it really depends onthe company and you know the
company and you know what it isand the role itself that they're
looking for.
I'd say that there are certainjobs where, yeah, there is that
ability to sort of apply, solike, for instance, recruiting,
(08:02):
like you know, I think that thatis an easy one.
I don't say that sort ofdisqualifying myself here, but
you know, I was able totransition from teaching to you
know recruiting, because it'snot like there's a super hard
(08:23):
skill that you've got the peopleskills you can communicate and
you're resourceful and you know,you know how to do a search and
you can use some social mediaand whatnot.
You know you can get trained up.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Well, see, I like to ask a lot of stupid questions,
because I find that stupidquestions, the simple things
that we think should be obvious,always have an answer.
That'll have something in therethat's not so obvious, and in
this case, I think a lot ofpeople are afraid to take a risk
and go into something else, butthat they should give it a shot
.
You know that there aretransferable skills that
(08:56):
companies are more willing tolook at than we realize.
I mean, yeah, if you're hiringsomeone for coding, then they
got to know coding.
But you know how important youjust because you just mentioned
it how important is formaleducation and certification when
pivoting to a different career,and when does experience alone
suffice?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, again, I think that is sort of depends on the
role and what, what they'relooking for.
But a lot of times from my own,you know, unless unless a
hiring manager or company or hrrequires that there's like a
degree involved um, you know, Idon't look at that, it's more
(09:36):
about the experience to me.
You know you gain.
I personally feel like you gainmore experience on a job than
you do in the classroom becauseyou're actually hands on doing
it.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
I remember going into my MSW degree to study to
become a therapist and atherapist I knew said you
understand, you're not going tolearn a thing about therapy in
this degree.
Right, and that's, that's thecase.
Yeah, so when?
I guess what I'm getting at iswhen we say when we, when we see
on a job posting, uh, degree insuch and such preferred.
(10:08):
When the word says preferred.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I always say go for it.
I always, you know, I say applyeven if you're um, you know you
don't meet every criteria.
Yeah, it can't hurt because,again, keep in mind that that
job posting is a Christmas list.
They want, you know that is theperfect candidate, which
doesn't exist.
So I always say take the shot.
(10:33):
Even if you have a couple ofyears less experience or you
know you don't have that degree,go for it.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Well, I think that's really great to know that what
she said, that was in our lastepisode and saying it again here
, that you know a job posting isa Christmas list, because I
think some people get to.
I know I have I've not appliedfor things I probably could have
at least got an interview forin retrospect, just because I'm
like I don't have some of thethings on this, this list, but
(11:02):
it's a christmas list, it's notthey're.
You know they're writing theperfect candidate but they're
never going to find that.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
So you know it's like buying a house, right right
like when you're on the marketlooking for a house.
There's certain things you'regoing to have to concede on.
You're not.
Usually you're not going to geteverything especially in jersey
.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
What can you waver on ?
Yeah, exactly, conceding onseveral things.
All right, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Let's talk about one thing I do want to, can I just I
wanted to say something about,like, when you're applying for
that job that you you know maynot be the perfect you know fit
on paper for, or there's certainthings that you're lacking.
One piece of advice I I wouldlike to offer the audience is
you know you apply for that job,look for the hiring manager on
(11:45):
LinkedIn, um, who is hiring forthat job, or the recruiter
that's owning that job, but Iwould say the hiring manager is
going to be more effective andsend them a message.
This is a super effective wayto gain the attention of you
know the hiring team, um, andsell yourself.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So that doesn't come off as sleazy in any way.
That's a really a positivething to do.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Oh yeah, and I see it more and more and I can't tell
you how many times I've hadhiring managers reach out to me
as the recruiter and say, hey,this person said they applied,
they reached out to me and youknow, I think they sound really
motivated.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
You know I'd like to talk to them.
Set up an interview.
It's happened more like it'shappened a lot.
Excellent, oh, that's reallygood to know.
So go ahead and have thechutzpah to reach out to those
hiring managers through theirsocial media account.
I love that.
Um, what are key changes aperson should make to their
resume and to their LinkedIn andtheir personal branding?
I mean, obviously, we do knowyou want to tailor your resume
to whatever job you're lookingat, but what are things that you
(12:53):
see that are common mistakespeople make?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Um, common mistakes like, let's say, if you're
pivoting specifically you want.
One thing that drives me crazyas the recruiter is when your
LinkedIn doesn't match yourresume and I'm not saying that,
like, it has to be word for word, verbatim, because I see
LinkedIn more as a marketingtool than really a way to, you
(13:21):
know, apply for jobs per se oras a resume.
Right, your resume is yourresume, that's what you're
applying to the job for.
The LinkedIn is to sort ofenhance and market yourself as
to, like what you're good at,what you can do.
But you do want to have jobtitles matching.
You do want to have dates.
Um, you know, in years ofemployment and all of that stuff
, you want it to match.
(13:44):
Um, a lot, of, a lot of timesI'll look at a resume and be
like, wow, this is really,really great.
And then I go to LinkedIn andI'm like, wait, this doesn't add
up.
And then let's say, if thecandidate does make it through,
this is where sometimes they'llmess up on those background
checks.
And we've had folks we'verescinded offers from folks
because of their lack ofintegrity, or they're trying to
embellish or stretch out datesto fill in a gap of employment.
(14:05):
Um, you know that is notsomething I recommend and I say,
you know, be very careful withthat Um.
But you know, when trying topivot and transition, I would
say just try to highlight andhave at the top of your bulleted
list of skills the ones thatare most applicable to the role
you're applying for.
(14:26):
You know, that would be myrecommendation.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
But your other recommendation is really careful
with the bullshit, careful withthe hyperbole, oh yeah, because
especially nowadays that can befound.
We can find out that stuff.
So present yourself who you areand try to.
I mean, we all have to sellourselves.
We have to use hyperbole tosome extent, but if you're lying
on your resume it's going toget found, right, that's what
(14:54):
you're saying.
Okay, this is a perfect placefor us to take a quick break,
because when we come back, weare going to talk more about
this, only from an angle thatI'm pretty passionate about, and
that is what happens whenyou're pivoting after the age of
50.
Back in a second.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
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(15:38):
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Visit mattbrookscoachingcom tobook your free discovery session
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Speaker 1 (16:01):
Don't I have the best voiceover artist for that ad?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I was gonna say I recognize that I get a lot of
compliments on that voice andpeople think I spent big money
to hire that voice artist.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Voiceover artist and I guess you could say I did, but
um, all right, we're back, um,and now I want to get into a a
little bit of a awkward,uncomfortable area, but it's
really important.
I did a whole show a few weeksago on pivoting over 50 and
ageism, and I want to get intothis area of ageism, not to put
(16:34):
you in an uncomfortable position.
I know you need to be careful,but I want to see if you can
give us some advice that mighthelp.
First, though, I want to set itup with some numbers that I
gave in this episode I did a fewweeks ago, because they are
pretty startling, okay.
So, according to ProPublica andthe Urban Institute, more than
half of the workers in thiscountry who are over 50 are
(16:55):
pushed out of employment, andonly one in 10 of those are
going to recover.
Okay, 28% of stable, stable,long-time employees sustain at
least one layoff between the ageof 50 and retirement.
56% of that job loss isemployer driven.
Okay, so that 56% breaks down28% from layoffs, 15% due to
(17:17):
something called deterioratingconditions I still don't know
what that means and 13% due tosomething called classified as
unexpected retirement, which tome is just they got pushed out.
Okay.
Information from the US CensusBureau states that there are
over 40 million workers in thiscountry over the age of 50.
And of those, it's predicted 22million will likely suffer
(17:39):
layoffs, forced retirement orinvoluntary separations from
their jobs.
And here's the reallyfrightening thing Of that 22
million, it's predicted thatonly 2 million will recover.
I'm not going to ask you theobvious question, which is why
do we do this to people over 50,?
Because it doesn't make anysense to me, especially now that
(17:59):
we're living longer andhealthier lives.
50 is often when people, Ithink, are at the height of
their game.
They're at the top of theirgame, but for some reason we
have this arbitrary number of 50, and it is a reality.
It's a real thing and it is, asBill Maher said, the last
acceptable prejudice ageism.
So the one thing that we dohave at 50, if we have to
(18:25):
reinvent, is we got a lot ofexperience.
We have extensive experience bythat age, typically.
So how is extensive experiencelike that viewed when
transitioning to a new role orfield, and what would you
suggest a person does tohighlight that in a positive way
?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, that is.
It's a good question, it'sdefinitely a tricky.
It's a tricky subject because Iwould say that extensive
experience is obviously can beheld in high esteem, but then I
think also hiring managers mayfeel threatened, right?
Especially if they'repotentially younger, right?
(19:05):
So there, I think that's whysometimes this ageism exists.
There's this fear that like, oh, what if they're better than me
?
What if they know more than me,right?
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Oh, I just got the truth finally came out right.
That's a lot to do with it.
And salary right.
Your hiring manager thinksthey're going to expect to be
paid commensurate with theirexperience and that's not what
we're looking to do.
So what can you tell theapplicant, the person over 50
who's applying?
What can they do to put thathiring manager at ease, to put
that that owner of that companyor that that boss, that CEO, at
(19:36):
ease?
What can they do to get themessage out that they're not
necessarily looking for thesalary that the people might?
I mean you don't want to sayI'm not looking for good pay,
but how do you, how do you comeacross in a way that says, look,
I'm going to be a team member?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, no, I think one thing that all candidates, no
matter what the age is like,make sure you really understand
the company, what their missionis, what their values are, and
speak to that, whether it's in,you know, I don't.
I don't really like coverletters.
That's a whole other subject wehaven't really talked about.
But if you are going to submita cover letter, you know you can
(20:13):
speak to that, you know.
Or if you're going to email thehiring manager or the recruiter
or reach out to them onLinkedIn, like I'd mentioned
before, like speak to thosethings you know.
Here's why I want to join yourorganization, like I'm very pat,
you know.
Again, it comes down to thatpassion, that curiosity, um,
that you know, not just lookingfor a competitive salary but
(20:34):
looking for the opportunitylooking for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
That's the key right there.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
And.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
I'm just going to pause you briefly.
I want to back up cover letter.
All right, let's not get intothe whole reasons why you don't
like cover letters.
But if you don't have a coverletter, how do you communicate
this?
Is it that you're reaching outon social media and over email?
I mean, if the cover letter istypically the place where your
resume is, the place where youconvey your skills and
(20:59):
experience, the cover letter isthe place where you get to
convey your passion often, yeah.
So if the cover letter is nolonger effective.
How do we do that?
How do we get that across?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
I advise that you put a summary on the top of your
resume, almost like what is yourobjective for applying for the
job, and summarize it againsuccinctly there.
You know why.
You know whatever the companyname is, why you know I'm
interested in this role.
I feel like I could be a valuebecause of X, y and Z.
(21:31):
You know and speak to not justthe job that you're applying to,
but also the overall, like corevalues and the mission of the
company itself.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
What subtle thing can somebody say in that or in
their interviews or whateverthat will let the company know
that they already understandthat they're pivoting and that
means they have to take a fewsteps back, like we talked about
in the last episode, and thatthey are not expecting they be
paid equally to what they werepaid in their last role.
(21:58):
They want to get their foot inthe door and work really hard.
What, how?
How do we get that point acrosswithout saying those words?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
You know you could say, like I've seen on on
resumes and in those likesummaries and objectives, where
it's like you know I havediverse experience, you know
working as an IC, like anindividual contributor,
management and I'm a team playerand willing to start I wouldn't
say start at a basic level, butin some ways, you know, use
(22:31):
some verbiage that talks aboutlike willing to, to learn and
you know, again, begin as likean individual contributor and,
you know, look forward togrowing within the team and the
company.
You know something along thoselines also have had in my head
(22:54):
but haven't mentioned in thispodcast, is I love to use you
may hate this I love to use AIand chat GPT to try to really
get a good um way to convey mythoughts.
Um, especially when it comes towriting, you know, formal,
whether it's like resume or youknow um a blurb or a summary,
it's super helpful.
So I, for the record.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
Don't hate it because I use it myself, but I don't
like I use it.
I used it for some of myquestions, for this podcast in
fact, and but I don't take.
I don't take what it saysverbatim.
I take what it says as givingme a starting point for me to
write everything in my own words, and that's that's what.
I use.
Oh my God, are you kidding?
I mean, these are tools thatnow exist to make our lives.
(23:33):
You know, I look at it as athinking tool, right?
I think a lot of.
I know.
I was just talking to a formerprofessor of mine yesterday
who's like you wouldn't believethe rash of papers I'm getting
now that are just literallystraight out of it.
That's not what I'm talkingabout, but a thinking tool.
Okay, are there any qualitiesor contributions that people you
(23:55):
know make throughout theircareers that employers
particularly value more now inmature candidates?
Are there any?
That may be a stupid question.
There may be no answer to that,but is there a way?
I'm always looking to find waysthat older people can stand out
, because I'm an older personand I love older people yeah
right no, I'm, I'm not far farfrom that either, matthew.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
So, um, I would say, uh, you know kind of how I look
at, like, like folks that areconsultants, um, you can kind of
compare that to the folks thathave been, you know, that are,
uh, progressed in their career.
They have a diverse skill likeamount of diverse experience.
They've been exposed to a lotof challenges and ebbs and flow
(24:40):
in the market, in the job right,in changing technology, and
they've, you know, beenresilient through that right.
They've been able to navigatethose changes.
But also, having that longevityin a career, you've picked up a
lot of skills, hard skills,soft skills and you can use that
(25:03):
to market yourself.
But I guess one thing that I cansee in a resume is longevity in
a role.
How long were you at a companyand you took them from point A
to point B?
Like, what I always love to seein a resume is like the numbers
right.
So many companies are datadriven right now and they
specifically say, like every jobdescription I feel like I help
(25:26):
craft or that I read when I'mapplying, is, like you know,
data driven recruiter, or usesdata and metrics to drive change
or implement change or whatever.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,that jargon.
But seeing the real numbers, um, you know, on the resume and
being able to speak to that,like I made an impact that drove
revenue from X you know, fromum, from you know, uh, a to B or
(25:51):
whatever the case may be, likethat kind of stuff, I think
really really does help showyour impact right and the impact
you've made in the roles thatyou've held.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Excellent.
Now what should you avoid whenyou're over 50 and you're
applying for a job?
What should you leave out?
Like you know, I know I haveone in mind that I want to
mention about resumes, butbefore I say it what?
What do you think people over50 should avoid?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, anybody, whether, no matter what your age
, avoid anything personal, likenothing bothers me more on a
resume.
Somebody putting like I enjoyreading and hiking in my spare
time, Like I always say like.
Keep it professional, even whenyou're asked to do that
elevator pitch.
Do not mention anythingpersonal.
Oh my God, let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I had a rule when I was hiring people in my former
career and I hired people allthe time.
If anybody in an interview saidI'm a people person, they were
done, I would not hire them.
You know what I mean.
I don't want to hear what kindof person you are, I want to see
it.
Do you know what?
I mean, and so I agree with youon the personal side, you know.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, yeah, but as far as and what was the question
?
Again, how?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I'm like what should?
Speaker 3 (26:59):
we avoid.
What should people?
Speaker 2 (27:00):
avoid.
So one tip I could say, like ifyou're worried about the ageism
which definitely as we all, youknow, your numbers proved it it
exists in the workplace, is youcan tailor your resume so that
it doesn't project your ageRight, um.
So one piece of advice I giveuh, you know, friends,
(27:20):
candidates, whoever anybody likeyou know looking to make a
change or revamping their resumeis you really only need to
provide your last 10 years ofexperience, not even like seven,
I think.
In my last company thebackground check went no longer
than seven years, but I alwayssay 10 years, right, 10 years
past experience is what youreally need to speak to on your
(27:41):
resume.
And then you can put a line inat the bottom to you know, to
weed out, like how old you are,that says, like you know, prior
experience available uponrequest.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Right, that's perfect .
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Something along those lines where you're not giving
away your age.
You're not.
You know that bias won't existwhen the recruiter or the hiring
manager is looking at yourresume.
And you don't need to put datesof when you graduated college,
although some applicationsystems may require it, but
unless they do, you don't haveto put that.
If you earned a degree, justsay, like earned a degree from
(28:14):
this college and this was thedegree, you don't have to put
the years.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
And I wanted to bring that point up.
That was my point for people?
Um, because the agediscrimination and employment
act exists to protect peoplefrom ageism but it turns out
that on average, at least overthe last decade, only about two
and a half percent of casesbrought on that act have been
seen to have cause.
Because it's really easy tohide ageism and one of the ways
(28:41):
is what are the dates of yourdegrees?
So you graduate from highschool in 1988, we know your age
.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And so.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
I always say take the dates off unless they
specifically request them takethe dates off.
So I'm glad to hear you say thesame thing.
Um, if the only thing thatbothers me about just the last
10 years is, if you haveextensive 30 years of experience
, you're not selling your.
It seems to me like you're notselling yourself as well as you
could, or are you?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You can.
Uh, well, that's where you canalso write in your summary, you
know, your sort of progressionof experience, or at the end of
the resume.
There's a lot of ways to playaround with this.
If that's a concern that youhave is you want to show that
progression right and that hardwork that you've done.
You could say, like previousexperience available upon upon
(29:33):
requests, and you know wouldinclude, you know, um, whatever,
though, those path roles, are,but in a very general way, I see
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and or,like I said, in your summer you
could say, like you know, kickedoff my career, as you know, I
don't know, a projectcoordinator, blah blah, and then
, like you know, through throughthe years, have you know, have
(29:57):
progressed to, you know, adirector of project management
or you know a PMO, like head ofPMO or something like that, you
know.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
All right.
So you know, I know it's.
This is a tough topic becausewe all have to be careful.
But I'm not a hiring person.
I have my own small businessand I talk about ageism because
I see it all the time and it'sterribly offensive to me because
there's a hell of a lot ofpeople I know in their 50s and
(30:26):
60s who are extraordinarilytalented people and it seems
like a lot of talent andexpertise to be wasting.
So I really hope that I'm gonnabe pounding this drum for a
long time.
I hope we can find a way tomake the last acceptable
prejudice no longer acceptable.
But that's enough of mypontificating for the day.
I got one last question for you,jamie.
Back to pivoting in general.
(30:47):
A lot of people wanna pivot.
They have a dream, they dreamabout it, they want to get out
of the rut they're in orwhatever, but they're, frankly,
scared to do it.
Now I've given some advice onhow to go about this, but for
those people that really aren'tfulfilled in their lives and
want to pivot but they're scaredto pivot, do you have any
(31:09):
thoughts for them?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
to pivot.
Do you have any thoughts forthem?
I, I mean, that was me, andthen I was kind of in that mode
I know you talked about thethree different types of pivots
where, like I had to, I had todo it in order to maintain, you
know, stability for my kids andthe lifestyle that they were
used to leading Um, so I waskind of forced into it.
Otherwise, I think I probablywould have just been afraid and
not done it, um, frankly, youknow, probably would have just
been afraid and not done it,frankly, you know, and would
have just like gone with what Iknew.
But it's always, you know, thefear of the unknown really is
(31:39):
what I think prevents peoplefrom actually making that jump.
But I would say, you know, andthis is something I did talk to
people reach out to you know,people that you know that are
doing it, or even people thatyou don't know, like it's funny,
you know people that you knowthat are doing it, or even
people that you don't know, likeit's funny, on LinkedIn, I'll
get people that reach out to meabout, you know, not getting a
(31:59):
role at my company.
They just want to pick my brainon, kind of like what we're
talking about today, like what'sa good, and you know, sometimes
those connections can lead tobigger opportunities, you know.
So I would say reach out to youknow, either, and you can look
at school, like if there'ssomething specific you're
looking into or you'repassionate about that you want
to pivot into, like look atprograms online.
(32:23):
Or you know local schools andwhatnot, and talk to you know
professors or folks over atthose departments, like, what is
it going to take?
You know and I think, matthew,you could probably speak to this
as far as what you did in yourpivot, you know, getting that
insight of, like, what is itgoing to take for me to do it?
Like, do I have it in me to doit?
(32:43):
Is it worth it?
You know, and just gather thatinformation and educate yourself
as best you can about what thatyou know pivot will entail what
the role entails, like what arethe?
You know, if you do have to goback to school, what are the
courses you have to take, isthat something you want to
commit yourself to?
Or you know, also, you need tokeep in mind, like, am I willing
(33:03):
to start over?
Am I willing to potentiallytake a pay cut?
You know to.
Am I that passionate about itand am I that unhappy in my
current career that that'ssomething that I can justify?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
But what I'm trying to get at, though, is the fear
that holds people back, because,yes, there are all those things
.
Looking at the I talked aboutthis in my first episode in this
series you know all the sort ofthings you got to go through in
terms of what it's going tocost, what the financial
ramifications are, do you needmore training, what that's going
(33:37):
to cost, but but really, in theend of the day, it's about the
fear.
I think for a lot of people andyou know I'm going to say the
obvious.
You have one life, we have onelife to live, you know.
But you said something to meand when we were doing a
pre-interview that I thought waspretty important for people
that are thinking about pivotingdon't wait, do it.
Yeah, the earlier you do it thebetter, because as someone who
pivoted in his 50s, I can tellyou it's, it's a lot harder than
had I done it in my 30s, youknow.
(33:58):
So if you just if you're unhappy, don't quit your job, but start
doing the research.
Listen to my podcast, getonline there's plenty of books
and and materials on this youcan find with a simple Google
search and just start lookingthrough all the angles of
pivoting.
But don't be afraid to take theleap, because you get only one
(34:19):
shot at this life right, and weoften waste some of it.
We all do, we're guilty of that.
But if you really if it's inyour heart, if you're hearing
those messages that it's time topivot, that doesn't mean you
got to quit your job today.
It just means that the universeis sending you a message and
you need to start listening andlooking and reading and
researching and networking, asyou said, and I love the idea
(34:42):
that you say people who youdon't even know will just reach
out to you for advice and you'recomfortable with that.
You're cool with that, right.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, when I have the time.
I don't necessarily it's not myfirst priority to get back to
them, but I do try to becauseyou know, especially in what I
do, it's all about.
You know, networking and youknow, uh, getting word out there
.
Part of my role also is likeblasting on on.
So on LinkedIn, you know theopen roles and the more
connections I have on LinkedIn,the more that word is going to
(35:12):
get out there and I'm going tobe able to more easily find my
perfect candidate, whether it'sthey directly, you know are
connected to me, or somebody youknow sends my post to that
person because I'm connected tothem.
You know it's all about that.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
And keep the network.
It's absolutely.
I have a friend who pivoted inhis early fifties.
He's a business generalist andhe was very successful, but he
decided to pivot.
He took 150 interviews and theonly even hit he got of any
interest was from a company thatknew him.
So you know, that's anotherreality that we we didn't talk a
lot about in this show.
(35:44):
But yeah a lot of times thatit's not.
It's not so um, it's not sosleazy that we sometimes think
you can only get a job if youhave a connection.
It's just people stuff.
We don't want to.
We're, we're all afraid ofstrangers, period, End of story.
And so you know, knowing peopleit isn't necessarily about
(36:05):
having them do you a favor, it'sabout them being more
comfortable with you.
So knowing people, reaching outto people is good, all right.
Well, these have been two greatshows and got a lot of
information from you.
I can't thank you enough and,yes, we're going to have you
back.
We're definitely going to haveyou back to talk about a few
other topics at some point, butthank you again, jamie.
Really I appreciate you beingon.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
No, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
All right, everybody.
Thanks again for tuning in.
I hope you enjoyed this.
If you did, please hit thatfollow or subscribe button.
Next week we're going to changetopics.
We've just done a long serieson pivoting.
Next week, we're going to do acouple quick shows on time
management skills, something I'msure we all can improve and
something that's reallyimportant in terms of how we use
(36:49):
our time effectively andefficiently.
I've got some really good tipsand tricks for you, so be sure
to check it out.
For now, be well, and I'llcatch you next time on the
Barrier Busting Podcast.
Thank you.
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