March 6, 2025 • 22 mins
Unlock the profound connection between biblical identity and racial reality in our latest episode with Dr. Ben Mathew from Columbia International University. Join us as we explore how prioritizing our faith can help us transcend biases and foster unity within the Ben Lippin School community. Dr. Mathew guides us through the complexities of maintaining our identity in Christ while embracing our diverse backgrounds. Discover how this perspective aligns with the gospel's message of love and redemption, offering a pathway to reconcile differences and build a stronger, more inclusive community.
Get ready for an engaging conversation as Dr. Mathew shares his insights on addressing cultural misunderstandings and hurtful comments with compassion and scriptural wisdom. We tackle the challenges of "colorblindness" and "color essentialism," advocating for a balanced approach where our faith informs our views on race and culture without overshadowing our unique identities. Drawing lessons from the unity between Jews and Gentiles in Ephesians, we aim to inspire honest dialogue and understanding. Don't miss the opportunity to connect with Dr. Mathew for further exploration of these vital topics, as he offers his contact information for those eager to continue the conversation.
Click here to submit your questions for Dr. Mathew to review.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to another episode of the Ben
Lippin podcast.
This is episode four out offive with Dr Ben Matthew, where
we are talking about the gospeland racial discussions here at
Ben Lippin School.
If you haven't listened toepisodes one, two and three, I'd
encourage you to go back andlisten to them so that you can
have more context for thisdiscussion.
But if you don't have time,it's OK.
(00:23):
We we trust the Lord hasbrought you here for this time
to listen to this and you can goback and listen to this at a
later time.
So in the first few episodes wetalked about our heart posture
when it comes to this topic andthen understanding the biblical
theology of race.
We broke that down into thebeautiful story, the big story
that the Lord has created for us, and so now it's time for us to
(00:46):
take that and apply it to ourcommunity here at Ben Lippin.
So, Dr Matthew, I'm just goingto kick it off to you and start
this discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, and one of the things I so appreciate Aaron and
the administrators at BenLippin wanting to discuss this
and we had some conversationsand prayers before where we
wanted to make this a realityfor life at Benelit, for the
students, for the parents, thefamilies that support.
We recognize this can besometimes out there or so heady
and theological that we don'tmake it relevant to our
(01:14):
particular community.
So I'm very encouraged by thatdesire to kind of put some
rubber to the road here, as itwere.
Comes to that.
And to me it kind of plays inline of what we did in those
earlier episodes in developing abiblical theology creation,
fall, cross, redemption andglory Trying to think through
okay, how can we kind ofpractically live these five
points of the biblical narrativeout?
(01:35):
At Ben Lippin, which I thinkyou know, going back to the
creation account, we talked alot about what this means.
To find our identity first andforemost in who God is and how
he created us, that our identityagain first is not our
ethnicity.
Ethnicity is part of us butit's not the priority of us.
There is a pastor,african-american pastor that I
(01:57):
knew when I was going to DallasTheological Seminary and he made
this quote one time.
He says where my blacknessbumps up against my faith, my
faith has to win.
And what I loved about hisstatement is that he wasn't
discounting his ethnic realities, his cultural realities, but he
was putting it in subordinationto a greater identity, namely
his identity in Christ.
(02:17):
So I look at that and I ask thequestion of us at Ben Lippin
where is our first identity?
That doesn't mean that you getrid of your other identity and
that could be ethnic, that couldbe political, that could be
gender, that can besocioeconomic.
There's so many other variablesof defining who we are, but
they must all fall under agreater identity, namely who I
am.
(02:37):
Made in the image of God, andthat's true for Christians and
non-Christians, right.
The image of God is somethingthat all humans have, regardless
of their standing of faith, andwe need to admit there may be
some listening to this podcastthat don't know Christ and that
may not be a reality for them.
We would hope they would andembrace the gospel of a God who
loves them through Jesus Christ,but I want them to also
understand that your identityand value is not only when you
(03:00):
come to salvation.
Your identity and value is madethere because you're created as
a human being.
What if we start looking ateach other at Ben Lippin through
that lens?
First, what does that look like?
How do I see if you're astudent?
How can you see other studentsas being made in the image of
God?
If you're a teacher oradministrator, how do I view my
colleagues and my students madein the image of God?
(03:22):
If you're a parent, how do Ihelp my kids?
How do I help myself engagewith those other people made in
the image of God, having to saythat phrase out many times, made
in the image of God.
Made in the image of God, Ithink is so important, kind of
start us working towards what Ithink God wants in his gospel.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, and we have to continuously and consciously do
that because our sin nature willwant us to go right back to
Genesis 11.
I'm going to dive back toGenesis 11, but you know, and it
kind of what you're saying,neutralizes the some of the hot
topic-ness of what we're talkingabout, because if we're
gentlemen have said, when myblackness bumps up against my
(03:59):
faith, my faith must win, we canlook at that too.
When, when my mom-ness or mywife or my habit-ness, whatever
it is, bumps up, our faithalways has to win, and so we
just can kind of take a stepback, I like to say be a curious
observer and neutralize it inthat role.
So, yeah, I mean, that'swonderful.
Just, with every interactionthat we have in the Benton
(04:19):
Lippin community, are we, are weputting that, that lens of
Christ and that lens of ourfaith, all right?
So that comes to the secondstep.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, which you kind of highlighted that I already
want to get into, how quickly wecan jump back I like the way
that you said it back to theGenesis 11 type of attitude
where we see the division, wesee the difference first.
One of the things that I oftenhave to recognize in myself is
how quick I am to do that thatwhen those differences surface
against another ethnicity,against another culture, and I
(04:48):
see the difference, how I wantto isolate and if not kind of
cause myself to think I'm alittle better than them in this
area.
I want to be very clear hereand recognize there's a lot of
discussions as it relates toindividual and systemic
realities of racism.
This podcast is not intendingto enter into that debate.
The one thing I think isimportant to say is that all of
(05:10):
us red and yellow, black andwhite, all of us have bias and
have prejudice.
That we need to confess beforethe Lord and each other.
Just because I am a person ofcolor doesn't mean I can't be
racist.
I want to be very clear.
I can and have been racist.
I have harbored emotions andthoughts in my heart against
other ethnicities, other people,in ways that have tried to make
(05:32):
me better than them, in waysthat tries to make a name for
myself like in Genesis 11, andin doing so divides me from them
.
I think sometimes our culturewants to say only certain
communities, if you're onlywhite, then those are the only
people that can be racist.
I would challenge that becauseI know my own heart.
I've been a victim of racismand I have done racist things to
others as well.
(05:52):
I need to own both thoserealities.
Again, hard to be verypractical.
I'm often.
There's a reason they're calledmy blind spots is because I'm
blind to them.
Um, my wife has a much newercar, nicer car than I do, and
she has this wonderful featurethat if she wants to move into
the other lane and if there's acar in her blind spot, it warns
(06:14):
her Like the lights startflashing, this beeping noise.
My car is over 20 years old, soI'm just going to hit the
person and get out of the way,unfortunately for me, but her
car is really cool.
She has a blind spot indicator.
I need blind spot indicators inmy life.
I don't have this electronicdevice to do that, but God has
given me other people my wife,my kids, my church, my community
(06:36):
, my colleagues.
I need other people to look atme and give them invitation to
admit the areas I'm falling inwhen it comes to my pride and my
division when it comes to othercultures.
I'm blind to my blind spot, soI need a blind spot indicator.
I need to admit the wrongbefore I can embrace the better.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Where do you think some of these blind spots come
from?
And I mean, I know I have themtoo, but where do some of these
blind spots come from?
Great question.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, I think, like many things, experience tends to
inform a lot of our biases.
What we've gone throughpersonally, I know for me, our
family, we moved into apredominantly, if not almost
exclusively, white community andwe had to deal with significant
racial violence.
Our house was firebombed, ourgarage door spray painted, all
(07:21):
kinds of verbal and physicalattacks against our family
because of our ethnicity.
I know for me, growing up, itwould have been I don't want to
say justifiable, butunderstandable for me to have a
lot of resentment against whitepeople.
And yet I look at the responseof my parents and their gospel
engagement that helped me getbeyond my biases.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, butI think I look at their
(07:43):
willingness to engage in theface of those really bad
experiences and be willing topush the gospel into it rather
than retreat.
Experiences can be powerful, butexperiences don't have to be
determinative, and so I think weneed to recognize what are the
things we've gone through andask the question maybe another
area is what am I beingdiscipled by, or who am I being
discipled by, if this is thefirst time you've ever heard a
(08:04):
biblical theology of race thatconcerns me on so many levels?
Because if we don't talk aboutit in our Christian context,
then I have to wonder what othernarratives are we hearing?
If I go to church for an houror two a week, but I'm listening
to newscasts and it's happeningon both sides of the political
aisle, whether you're more onthe conservative or more on the
progressive side.
We're being discipled five, sixhours a night by some of these
(08:26):
voices.
I need to be willing to ask arethey helping me embrace
something bigger, or is it justdividing me like we saw in
Genesis 11?
I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways in which we're
being informed by some of theseissues that then feed into our
blind spots.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, and that comes into what you're saying too
about the blind spot indicators.
Sometimes within our communitysome people can say things and
they don't realize theimplications of what they're
saying and so being able tolovingly disciple so that they
have a better understanding oftheir words.
I mean, it goes back to wordsand language.
(09:00):
It can be used to divide or tounify.
Talking about that and thiskind of I guess it goes into
some of the other points.
But if you are in a place whereyou're coming to a different
understanding of race, ethnicity, culture and the Lord has
really moved in your heartthrough this discussion, and you
have a dear friend or someone,just an acquaintance, that says
(09:20):
something that can be harmfuland hurtful, how can we address
that through the lens ofScripture when we hear those
things?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Such a good question, erin, because, let's be honest,
that's going to happen right.
We're either going to saysomething or we're going to
receive something.
That is just going to behurtful.
It's usually not meant, butnevertheless received or
understood in that context.
For me, this is kind of evengets to our next point with the
cross, when I find my identityand how I'm made in the image of
God, when I recognize myfallenness, but then I see how
(09:48):
Christ entered into our mess toredeem us for his glory.
The cross, if I can say it thisway, helps us develop not just
thicker skin but deeper identity.
I am not asking us to ignorethose hurts, those things that
either we say to others or thatwe receive from others and just
say, ah, don't worry about it.
No, those are real hurts.
I think we need to admit thatand maybe to some degree be
(10:09):
willing to broach thatindividual and ask them, kind of
like Jesus says in the Gospelof Matthew if your brother
offends you, go to him.
He doesn't say if your brotheroffends you, go on to Twitter or
Facebook.
He says to go to them.
But what if we are willing toallow that offense to not just
kind of bounce off us butrecognize our identity is not in
what they said but on whatChrist has done for me.
(10:31):
He died to reconcile ustogether.
That then gives me somesustainability, that when those
hits happen I don't have to letit be the end of the
conversation, that it can infact lead to more.
As you know, in good therapy yourecognize you have to get hurt
a little bit.
You got to unpack the woundbefore there can be healing.
But there's hope because ofwhat Christ did at the cross,
(10:52):
that there can be reconciliation.
Will it be hard?
Yeah, let's own that and thosecomments and those, those
contexts where we feel that hurt.
Sometimes we just want to.
We want to go back to Genesis11 and just retreat.
But the cross gives us power anddeeper identity to engage,
because I think then, gettinginto the redemption narrative,
it gives us some parameters ofrecognizing.
(11:13):
The two things I often try tohelp people understand is that
we want to avoid two particularthings ideas.
One is what I callcolorblindness.
If you've ever heard this termbefore, I had a friend of mine
at a meeting we were having thisdiscussion.
He was from a European whitebackground and he said to me Ben
, I don't see you as a brown man.
I just see you as my brother inChrist.
So I want to first commend himfor that comment, because I
(11:35):
think I know what he was tryingto get at.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
And he's right.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
First and foremost, our connection is through Christ
, not through the color of ourskin.
At the same time to talk aboutwell, I don't see your brown
skin.
I remember responding to him.
I said brother, I so appreciatethat, but when I look in the
mirror every day, guess what Isee?
I see a brown guy.
Right, that's part of who I am.
It's not the totality of who Iam.
(11:58):
But to ignore that, I think, isnot.
It'd be like me going up to awoman and saying you know what?
I don't see you as a female, Ijust see you as another person
in Christ.
Well, to be sure, I don't wantto elevate gender above or
beyond, because we'veunfortunately seen that through
history, but neither do I thinkthat means I go to an
egalitarian position that saysthere is no difference between
men and women.
If you know the theologicaldebate regarding complementarian
(12:20):
and egalitarianism when itrelates to men and women, I
think the egalitarian positioncan lead into some dangerous
difficult areas because itflattens out the differences.
I think God created men andwomen to be different.
I also think that, as itrelates to not just gendered
realities but ethnic realities,god created us to be different,
not as a priority.
Like my friend said, where myblackness bumps up against my
(12:41):
faith, my faith has to win.
But I don't think that means Iget rid of, I don't become
colorblind.
In fact, god's not colorblindRevelation.
Go back to some of those otherpodcasts.
God most definitely sees color,but color through the lens of
the gospel, not through my ownpersonal desires.
I also want to avoid the otherside of it, what I call color
essentialism.
If you look at the book ofEphesians, in chapter two Paul
(13:03):
is very clear that our firstidentity chapter one he kind of
unpacks this reality and how nowthese two dividing communities
of Jews and Gentiles can now bebrought together.
But it's only because of thework of Christ that the
Jew-Gentile divide is sosecondary to this greater
identity, namely the church,that I can't put my ethnicity
(13:23):
higher than my identity as abeliever in Jesus Christ.
I do think sometimes and Ithink at Ben Lippin we need to
kind of ask ourselves thequestion, and can I say this
particularly to the minoritycommunity?
I think sometimes,predominantly the white
community can be a little morecolorblind in their mindset and
they need to be challenged inthat.
If I can gently challenge thosein the minority community
sometimes we want our minoritystatus to be put a little higher
(13:47):
.
I think we are pushing anessentialism way that is not
healthy for the conversationthat we may need to reprioritize
.
I don't mean get rid of, but Ido mean reprioritize.
So I want to avoid both thoserealities of color blindness and
color essentialism that may getin the way of some honest
communications at Ben Lippin.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Absolutely, and you know even me as a, as a white
woman, there are certainperceptions about me and my
history is not what would belike a stereotypical, what you
would think of.
You know I went to a dominantlyAfrican-American school for
many of my years and I have.
You know I've been immersed indifferent cultures, I've done
(14:26):
mission trips in differentplaces.
You know so, just taking me oranybody else at face value, you
limit the ability to see howtheir experiences have helped
them to better understand you.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, absolutely, which I appreciate you saying
that, because I think we all, weall do that at some level when
we engage with someone and,again, that's just kind of human
nature.
But we don't have to allow thatinitial reaction to be the only
reaction.
I like how you said it earlier.
How can we be curious, right?
How can we develop this senseof?
Okay, that may be my firstperception, but is that the
(15:00):
reality means more engagement,more questions, more curiosity
that helps me appreciate theunique realities of this person
in front of me.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Right, and it goes back to Philippians 4.8.
You know, is it true?
Okay, well, I'm having thisthought or this perception, and
now I need to measure it againstPhilippians.
Like, is this true?
Well, I don't know.
So let's ask some questions.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
That's a great point.
It's a great point, yeah.
That leads us, I think, thatmuch more to that last point of
glory.
I think glory.
I think the new heavens and thenew earth will be filled with
the reality of diversity, notjust for diversity's sake, but
diversity to show our unity, togive glory to the one who
brought us together.
If that's what the future hopeis, I think we need to be kind
of holding onto that hope andliving out that hope today.
(15:40):
One of the things that I'velearned from some of my
missiological colleagues isChristianity's unique relation
to the nations.
Let me say it this way I havefriends who are Muslims, who are
Hindus, who are Buddhists, whoare Jews and almost every major
religion.
For you to be part of thatreligion, you have to not just
take on the name but the ethnicreality of it.
(16:02):
If you want to be a Muslim, youkind of have to speak Arabic.
You have to not just take onthe name but the ethnic reality
of it.
If you want to be a Muslim, youkind of have to speak Arabic.
You have to pray towards Mecca.
You have to kind of becomeMiddle Eastern.
If you want to be Hindu, you'rekind of Indian.
If you're Buddhist you're kindof more Asian.
If you're Jewish, you're more.
You know, within that Jew youhave to conform to the
mono-ethnic reality of thatreligion.
Christianity stands apart fromall of those in that the way
that the gospel expands isthrough the different cultures,
(16:26):
so that a Christian in Brazillooks totally different than a
Christian in Norway, who lookstotally different than a
Christian in China, and so onand so forth.
But there are ethnicdifferences.
I'll highlight a deeper realitythat it actually you find
greater.
Going back to what you said,you get curious, like how are
you able to express yourChristianity in a Scandinavian
culture?
that is so different than anAfrican culture and yet worship
(16:48):
the same God.
And that's actually the beautyof the gospel is that it
actually becomes more beautifulthrough the differences.
Not like every other religionthat demands you become
mono-ethnic.
What if we at Ben Lippin startgetting curious about that when
I come across someone who isfrom a different culture,
whether it be from another partof the world or just a different
part of Columbia?
What if we start gettingexcited about the differences,
(17:10):
and not just the differences buthow they help us see the same
Savior and savor the joy of thatsalvation, if that's going to
be a reality in glory?
What if we start I tell mystudents sometimes, feel free to
work ahead a little on yourhomework if it helps you.
What if we work ahead a littlebit on our assignment here of
what the new heavens and newearth will look like and start
getting curious about how thedifferent cultures bring us
(17:32):
together to savor our Lord andSavior, Jesus Christ?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Absolutely, and you know you're talking about these
different nations and blindspots and things like that and
things that make us different.
One of my children is hasdyslexia and I got a text from
Sarah Beth Helsley, who is our.
She works at the Ridge here andshe let me know that in January
of 2025, january 9th, that theyare releasing a Bible that is
for individuals who havedyslexia and I I'm getting
(17:58):
emotional even talking about it,but I just wept because I had
never thought that about thechallenges that someone with
dyslexia has accessing the wordof God and you know, when it
comes to these other nations andwe are called to take his word
and make disciples of allnations and in order to do that,
(18:19):
we need to understand theirlanguage and communicate with
how God made them and thebeautiful ways that God made
them.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So what a great story .
How can we step into theirreality?
Whether it be a learning issue,like dyslexia, whether it be a
culture Listen, this should notbe too unfamiliar with us
because, again, that's what theincarnation is God steps into
our reality, our mess, in orderto bring us hope.
He doesn't leave us to our ownends.
(18:48):
As we try to make a name forourselves, god comes down and
says no, no, I got a better plan.
Let me step into your reality,and I think that's the model we
can have.
We can be incarnational intoother cultures, we can step into
their realities, which meansstepping out of our comfort.
I look at a God who very easilycould have stayed in his glory
and yet humbled himself, as Paulsays in Philippians, taking on
(19:09):
the form of a servant in orderto bring more glory to himself
and greater joy to us.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's a beautiful way to wrap this up here.
So in conclusion, in summation,how can we go forth and be
disciples of all nations here atBen Lippin?
Because we have a lot ofnations here.
We don't have all of them, butwe have a lot.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No, it's a great question, Erin, because again, I
speak not just as one who'slooked at this theologically.
It's something I deal with inmy with my students, something
that I deal with with my clients.
But I have a special interestat Ben Lippin.
Three of my four kids go there,my wife works there.
We're relatively new to BenLippin in Columbia and this has
been a blessing to us.
(19:46):
So, to figure out ways in whichwe can be part of this
community, but to see thiscommunity grow, Kind of going
back to one of our firstepisodes, come as you are and
kind of be willing to kind ofhave some of these conversations
, but know that God wants totake you beyond where you're at
my question, whether you're astudent, staff member, a parent,
a family member, how can westart looking at Ben Lippin
(20:11):
through a gospel lens ratherthan just the political or
cultural lens that's been so putout To me?
I think that's part of it ishaving some honest conversations
, Like we said, stepping out ofour comfort zone and being
willing to have willingness tolet the gospel inform us, to see
how we can move forward in waysthat I hope are informed more
by truth rather than ourpersonal biases.
We got to admit our biases, butknow that there is hope beyond
it as well.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Absolutely, that's wonderful, all right.
So again, if you have questions, comments, concerns, there's a
form that's in the show notes.
Please take some time to fillit out.
We care about your thoughts, wecare about you know your
concerns, that maybe this theseconversations have brought up.
We are open to that.
So please fill this form out,because we're going to be doing
a fifth episode where we'regoing to be coming to those
(20:52):
comments and questions and wewant to help continue to, to
give opportunities for everyonehere at Bentley to grow in this
narrative in the way that he hasalready designed for us to.
All right, dr Matthew, we thankyou so much for being here and
if anyone wants to get in touchwith you, what's the best way?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, I'm a professor over at Columbia International
University.
So my email benmathew at ciuedu.
It's the best way to get aholdof me.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
All right, guys.
Well, we'll see you in that Q&Aepisode.
Welcome back to another episode of the Ben
Lippin podcast.
This is episode four out offive with Dr Ben Matthew, where
we are talking about the gospeland racial discussions here at
Ben Lippin School.
If you haven't listened toepisodes one, two and three, I'd
encourage you to go back andlisten to them so that you can
have more context for thisdiscussion.
But if you don't have time,it's OK.
(00:23):
We we trust the Lord hasbrought you here for this time
to listen to this and you can goback and listen to this at a
later time.
So in the first few episodes wetalked about our heart posture
when it comes to this topic andthen understanding the biblical
theology of race.
We broke that down into thebeautiful story, the big story
that the Lord has created for us, and so now it's time for us to
(00:46):
take that and apply it to ourcommunity here at Ben Lippin.
So, Dr Matthew, I'm just goingto kick it off to you and start
this discussion.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, and one of the things I so appreciate Aaron and
the administrators at BenLippin wanting to discuss this
and we had some conversationsand prayers before where we
wanted to make this a realityfor life at Benelit, for the
students, for the parents, thefamilies that support.
We recognize this can besometimes out there or so heady
and theological that we don'tmake it relevant to our
(01:14):
particular community.
So I'm very encouraged by thatdesire to kind of put some
rubber to the road here, as itwere.
Comes to that.
And to me it kind of plays inline of what we did in those
earlier episodes in developing abiblical theology creation,
fall, cross, redemption andglory Trying to think through
okay, how can we kind ofpractically live these five
points of the biblical narrativeout?
(01:35):
At Ben Lippin, which I thinkyou know, going back to the
creation account, we talked alot about what this means.
To find our identity first andforemost in who God is and how
he created us, that our identityagain first is not our
ethnicity.
Ethnicity is part of us butit's not the priority of us.
There is a pastor,african-american pastor that I
(01:57):
knew when I was going to DallasTheological Seminary and he made
this quote one time.
He says where my blacknessbumps up against my faith, my
faith has to win.
And what I loved about hisstatement is that he wasn't
discounting his ethnic realities, his cultural realities, but he
was putting it in subordinationto a greater identity, namely
his identity in Christ.
(02:17):
So I look at that and I ask thequestion of us at Ben Lippin
where is our first identity?
That doesn't mean that you getrid of your other identity and
that could be ethnic, that couldbe political, that could be
gender, that can besocioeconomic.
There's so many other variablesof defining who we are, but
they must all fall under agreater identity, namely who I
am.
(02:37):
Made in the image of God, andthat's true for Christians and
non-Christians, right.
The image of God is somethingthat all humans have, regardless
of their standing of faith, andwe need to admit there may be
some listening to this podcastthat don't know Christ and that
may not be a reality for them.
We would hope they would andembrace the gospel of a God who
loves them through Jesus Christ,but I want them to also
understand that your identityand value is not only when you
(03:00):
come to salvation.
Your identity and value is madethere because you're created as
a human being.
What if we start looking ateach other at Ben Lippin through
that lens?
First, what does that look like?
How do I see if you're astudent?
How can you see other studentsas being made in the image of
God?
If you're a teacher oradministrator, how do I view my
colleagues and my students madein the image of God?
(03:22):
If you're a parent, how do Ihelp my kids?
How do I help myself engagewith those other people made in
the image of God, having to saythat phrase out many times, made
in the image of God.
Made in the image of God, Ithink is so important, kind of
start us working towards what Ithink God wants in his gospel.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah, and we have to continuously and consciously do
that because our sin nature willwant us to go right back to
Genesis 11.
I'm going to dive back toGenesis 11, but you know, and it
kind of what you're saying,neutralizes the some of the hot
topic-ness of what we're talkingabout, because if we're
gentlemen have said, when myblackness bumps up against my
(03:59):
faith, my faith must win, we canlook at that too.
When, when my mom-ness or mywife or my habit-ness, whatever
it is, bumps up, our faithalways has to win, and so we
just can kind of take a stepback, I like to say be a curious
observer and neutralize it inthat role.
So, yeah, I mean, that'swonderful.
Just, with every interactionthat we have in the Benton
(04:19):
Lippin community, are we, are weputting that, that lens of
Christ and that lens of ourfaith, all right?
So that comes to the secondstep.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, which you kind of highlighted that I already
want to get into, how quickly wecan jump back I like the way
that you said it back to theGenesis 11 type of attitude
where we see the division, wesee the difference first.
One of the things that I oftenhave to recognize in myself is
how quick I am to do that thatwhen those differences surface
against another ethnicity,against another culture, and I
(04:48):
see the difference, how I wantto isolate and if not kind of
cause myself to think I'm alittle better than them in this
area.
I want to be very clear hereand recognize there's a lot of
discussions as it relates toindividual and systemic
realities of racism.
This podcast is not intendingto enter into that debate.
The one thing I think isimportant to say is that all of
(05:10):
us red and yellow, black andwhite, all of us have bias and
have prejudice.
That we need to confess beforethe Lord and each other.
Just because I am a person ofcolor doesn't mean I can't be
racist.
I want to be very clear.
I can and have been racist.
I have harbored emotions andthoughts in my heart against
other ethnicities, other people,in ways that have tried to make
(05:32):
me better than them, in waysthat tries to make a name for
myself like in Genesis 11, andin doing so divides me from them
.
I think sometimes our culturewants to say only certain
communities, if you're onlywhite, then those are the only
people that can be racist.
I would challenge that becauseI know my own heart.
I've been a victim of racismand I have done racist things to
others as well.
(05:52):
I need to own both thoserealities.
Again, hard to be verypractical.
I'm often.
There's a reason they're calledmy blind spots is because I'm
blind to them.
Um, my wife has a much newercar, nicer car than I do, and
she has this wonderful featurethat if she wants to move into
the other lane and if there's acar in her blind spot, it warns
(06:14):
her Like the lights startflashing, this beeping noise.
My car is over 20 years old, soI'm just going to hit the
person and get out of the way,unfortunately for me, but her
car is really cool.
She has a blind spot indicator.
I need blind spot indicators inmy life.
I don't have this electronicdevice to do that, but God has
given me other people my wife,my kids, my church, my community
(06:36):
, my colleagues.
I need other people to look atme and give them invitation to
admit the areas I'm falling inwhen it comes to my pride and my
division when it comes to othercultures.
I'm blind to my blind spot, soI need a blind spot indicator.
I need to admit the wrongbefore I can embrace the better.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Where do you think some of these blind spots come
from?
And I mean, I know I have themtoo, but where do some of these
blind spots come from?
Great question.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, I think, like many things, experience tends to
inform a lot of our biases.
What we've gone throughpersonally, I know for me, our
family, we moved into apredominantly, if not almost
exclusively, white community andwe had to deal with significant
racial violence.
Our house was firebombed, ourgarage door spray painted, all
(07:21):
kinds of verbal and physicalattacks against our family
because of our ethnicity.
I know for me, growing up, itwould have been I don't want to
say justifiable, butunderstandable for me to have a
lot of resentment against whitepeople.
And yet I look at the responseof my parents and their gospel
engagement that helped me getbeyond my biases.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, butI think I look at their
(07:43):
willingness to engage in theface of those really bad
experiences and be willing topush the gospel into it rather
than retreat.
Experiences can be powerful, butexperiences don't have to be
determinative, and so I think weneed to recognize what are the
things we've gone through andask the question maybe another
area is what am I beingdiscipled by, or who am I being
discipled by, if this is thefirst time you've ever heard a
(08:04):
biblical theology of race thatconcerns me on so many levels?
Because if we don't talk aboutit in our Christian context,
then I have to wonder what othernarratives are we hearing?
If I go to church for an houror two a week, but I'm listening
to newscasts and it's happeningon both sides of the political
aisle, whether you're more onthe conservative or more on the
progressive side.
We're being discipled five, sixhours a night by some of these
(08:26):
voices.
I need to be willing to ask arethey helping me embrace
something bigger, or is it justdividing me like we saw in
Genesis 11?
I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways in which we're
being informed by some of theseissues that then feed into our
blind spots.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, and that comes into what you're saying too
about the blind spot indicators.
Sometimes within our communitysome people can say things and
they don't realize theimplications of what they're
saying and so being able tolovingly disciple so that they
have a better understanding oftheir words.
I mean, it goes back to wordsand language.
(09:00):
It can be used to divide or tounify.
Talking about that and thiskind of I guess it goes into
some of the other points.
But if you are in a place whereyou're coming to a different
understanding of race, ethnicity, culture and the Lord has
really moved in your heartthrough this discussion, and you
have a dear friend or someone,just an acquaintance, that says
(09:20):
something that can be harmfuland hurtful, how can we address
that through the lens ofScripture when we hear those
things?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Such a good question, erin, because, let's be honest,
that's going to happen right.
We're either going to saysomething or we're going to
receive something.
That is just going to behurtful.
It's usually not meant, butnevertheless received or
understood in that context.
For me, this is kind of evengets to our next point with the
cross, when I find my identityand how I'm made in the image of
God, when I recognize myfallenness, but then I see how
(09:48):
Christ entered into our mess toredeem us for his glory.
The cross, if I can say it thisway, helps us develop not just
thicker skin but deeper identity.
I am not asking us to ignorethose hurts, those things that
either we say to others or thatwe receive from others and just
say, ah, don't worry about it.
No, those are real hurts.
I think we need to admit thatand maybe to some degree be
(10:09):
willing to broach thatindividual and ask them, kind of
like Jesus says in the Gospelof Matthew if your brother
offends you, go to him.
He doesn't say if your brotheroffends you, go on to Twitter or
Facebook.
He says to go to them.
But what if we are willing toallow that offense to not just
kind of bounce off us butrecognize our identity is not in
what they said but on whatChrist has done for me.
(10:31):
He died to reconcile ustogether.
That then gives me somesustainability, that when those
hits happen I don't have to letit be the end of the
conversation, that it can infact lead to more.
As you know, in good therapy yourecognize you have to get hurt
a little bit.
You got to unpack the woundbefore there can be healing.
But there's hope because ofwhat Christ did at the cross,
(10:52):
that there can be reconciliation.
Will it be hard?
Yeah, let's own that and thosecomments and those, those
contexts where we feel that hurt.
Sometimes we just want to.
We want to go back to Genesis11 and just retreat.
But the cross gives us power anddeeper identity to engage,
because I think then, gettinginto the redemption narrative,
it gives us some parameters ofrecognizing.
(11:13):
The two things I often try tohelp people understand is that
we want to avoid two particularthings ideas.
One is what I callcolorblindness.
If you've ever heard this termbefore, I had a friend of mine
at a meeting we were having thisdiscussion.
He was from a European whitebackground and he said to me Ben
, I don't see you as a brown man.
I just see you as my brother inChrist.
So I want to first commend himfor that comment, because I
(11:35):
think I know what he was tryingto get at.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
And he's right.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
First and foremost, our connection is through Christ
, not through the color of ourskin.
At the same time to talk aboutwell, I don't see your brown
skin.
I remember responding to him.
I said brother, I so appreciatethat, but when I look in the
mirror every day, guess what Isee?
I see a brown guy.
Right, that's part of who I am.
It's not the totality of who Iam.
(11:58):
But to ignore that, I think, isnot.
It'd be like me going up to awoman and saying you know what?
I don't see you as a female, Ijust see you as another person
in Christ.
Well, to be sure, I don't wantto elevate gender above or
beyond, because we'veunfortunately seen that through
history, but neither do I thinkthat means I go to an
egalitarian position that saysthere is no difference between
men and women.
If you know the theologicaldebate regarding complementarian
(12:20):
and egalitarianism when itrelates to men and women, I
think the egalitarian positioncan lead into some dangerous
difficult areas because itflattens out the differences.
I think God created men andwomen to be different.
I also think that, as itrelates to not just gendered
realities but ethnic realities,god created us to be different,
not as a priority.
Like my friend said, where myblackness bumps up against my
(12:41):
faith, my faith has to win.
But I don't think that means Iget rid of, I don't become
colorblind.
In fact, god's not colorblindRevelation.
Go back to some of those otherpodcasts.
God most definitely sees color,but color through the lens of
the gospel, not through my ownpersonal desires.
I also want to avoid the otherside of it, what I call color
essentialism.
If you look at the book ofEphesians, in chapter two Paul
(13:03):
is very clear that our firstidentity chapter one he kind of
unpacks this reality and how nowthese two dividing communities
of Jews and Gentiles can now bebrought together.
But it's only because of thework of Christ that the
Jew-Gentile divide is sosecondary to this greater
identity, namely the church,that I can't put my ethnicity
(13:23):
higher than my identity as abeliever in Jesus Christ.
I do think sometimes and Ithink at Ben Lippin we need to
kind of ask ourselves thequestion, and can I say this
particularly to the minoritycommunity?
I think sometimes,predominantly the white
community can be a little morecolorblind in their mindset and
they need to be challenged inthat.
If I can gently challenge thosein the minority community
sometimes we want our minoritystatus to be put a little higher
(13:47):
.
I think we are pushing anessentialism way that is not
healthy for the conversationthat we may need to reprioritize
.
I don't mean get rid of, but Ido mean reprioritize.
So I want to avoid both thoserealities of color blindness and
color essentialism that may getin the way of some honest
communications at Ben Lippin.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Absolutely, and you know even me as a, as a white
woman, there are certainperceptions about me and my
history is not what would belike a stereotypical, what you
would think of.
You know I went to a dominantlyAfrican-American school for
many of my years and I have.
You know I've been immersed indifferent cultures, I've done
(14:26):
mission trips in differentplaces.
You know so, just taking me oranybody else at face value, you
limit the ability to see howtheir experiences have helped
them to better understand you.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yeah, absolutely, which I appreciate you saying
that, because I think we all, weall do that at some level when
we engage with someone and,again, that's just kind of human
nature.
But we don't have to allow thatinitial reaction to be the only
reaction.
I like how you said it earlier.
How can we be curious, right?
How can we develop this senseof?
Okay, that may be my firstperception, but is that the
(15:00):
reality means more engagement,more questions, more curiosity
that helps me appreciate theunique realities of this person
in front of me.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Right, and it goes back to Philippians 4.8.
You know, is it true?
Okay, well, I'm having thisthought or this perception, and
now I need to measure it againstPhilippians.
Like, is this true?
Well, I don't know.
So let's ask some questions.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
That's a great point.
It's a great point, yeah.
That leads us, I think, thatmuch more to that last point of
glory.
I think glory.
I think the new heavens and thenew earth will be filled with
the reality of diversity, notjust for diversity's sake, but
diversity to show our unity, togive glory to the one who
brought us together.
If that's what the future hopeis, I think we need to be kind
of holding onto that hope andliving out that hope today.
(15:40):
One of the things that I'velearned from some of my
missiological colleagues isChristianity's unique relation
to the nations.
Let me say it this way I havefriends who are Muslims, who are
Hindus, who are Buddhists, whoare Jews and almost every major
religion.
For you to be part of thatreligion, you have to not just
take on the name but the ethnicreality of it.
(16:02):
If you want to be a Muslim, youkind of have to speak Arabic.
You have to not just take onthe name but the ethnic reality
of it.
If you want to be a Muslim, youkind of have to speak Arabic.
You have to pray towards Mecca.
You have to kind of becomeMiddle Eastern.
If you want to be Hindu, you'rekind of Indian.
If you're Buddhist you're kindof more Asian.
If you're Jewish, you're more.
You know, within that Jew youhave to conform to the
mono-ethnic reality of thatreligion.
Christianity stands apart fromall of those in that the way
that the gospel expands isthrough the different cultures,
(16:26):
so that a Christian in Brazillooks totally different than a
Christian in Norway, who lookstotally different than a
Christian in China, and so onand so forth.
But there are ethnicdifferences.
I'll highlight a deeper realitythat it actually you find
greater.
Going back to what you said,you get curious, like how are
you able to express yourChristianity in a Scandinavian
culture?
that is so different than anAfrican culture and yet worship
(16:48):
the same God.
And that's actually the beautyof the gospel is that it
actually becomes more beautifulthrough the differences.
Not like every other religionthat demands you become
mono-ethnic.
What if we at Ben Lippin startgetting curious about that when
I come across someone who isfrom a different culture,
whether it be from another partof the world or just a different
part of Columbia?
What if we start gettingexcited about the differences,
(17:10):
and not just the differences buthow they help us see the same
Savior and savor the joy of thatsalvation, if that's going to
be a reality in glory?
What if we start I tell mystudents sometimes, feel free to
work ahead a little on yourhomework if it helps you.
What if we work ahead a littlebit on our assignment here of
what the new heavens and newearth will look like and start
getting curious about how thedifferent cultures bring us
(17:32):
together to savor our Lord andSavior, Jesus Christ?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Absolutely, and you know you're talking about these
different nations and blindspots and things like that and
things that make us different.
One of my children is hasdyslexia and I got a text from
Sarah Beth Helsley, who is our.
She works at the Ridge here andshe let me know that in January
of 2025, january 9th, that theyare releasing a Bible that is
for individuals who havedyslexia and I I'm getting
(17:58):
emotional even talking about it,but I just wept because I had
never thought that about thechallenges that someone with
dyslexia has accessing the wordof God and you know, when it
comes to these other nations andwe are called to take his word
and make disciples of allnations and in order to do that,
(18:19):
we need to understand theirlanguage and communicate with
how God made them and thebeautiful ways that God made
them.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So what a great story .
How can we step into theirreality?
Whether it be a learning issue,like dyslexia, whether it be a
culture Listen, this should notbe too unfamiliar with us
because, again, that's what theincarnation is God steps into
our reality, our mess, in orderto bring us hope.
He doesn't leave us to our ownends.
(18:48):
As we try to make a name forourselves, god comes down and
says no, no, I got a better plan.
Let me step into your reality,and I think that's the model we
can have.
We can be incarnational intoother cultures, we can step into
their realities, which meansstepping out of our comfort.
I look at a God who very easilycould have stayed in his glory
and yet humbled himself, as Paulsays in Philippians, taking on
(19:09):
the form of a servant in orderto bring more glory to himself
and greater joy to us.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
It's a beautiful way to wrap this up here.
So in conclusion, in summation,how can we go forth and be
disciples of all nations here atBen Lippin?
Because we have a lot ofnations here.
We don't have all of them, butwe have a lot.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No, it's a great question, Erin, because again, I
speak not just as one who'slooked at this theologically.
It's something I deal with inmy with my students, something
that I deal with with my clients.
But I have a special interestat Ben Lippin.
Three of my four kids go there,my wife works there.
We're relatively new to BenLippin in Columbia and this has
been a blessing to us.
(19:46):
So, to figure out ways in whichwe can be part of this
community, but to see thiscommunity grow, Kind of going
back to one of our firstepisodes, come as you are and
kind of be willing to kind ofhave some of these conversations
, but know that God wants totake you beyond where you're at
my question, whether you're astudent, staff member, a parent,
a family member, how can westart looking at Ben Lippin
(20:11):
through a gospel lens ratherthan just the political or
cultural lens that's been so putout To me?
I think that's part of it ishaving some honest conversations
, Like we said, stepping out ofour comfort zone and being
willing to have willingness tolet the gospel inform us, to see
how we can move forward in waysthat I hope are informed more
by truth rather than ourpersonal biases.
We got to admit our biases, butknow that there is hope beyond
it as well.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Absolutely, that's wonderful, all right.
So again, if you have questions, comments, concerns, there's a
form that's in the show notes.
Please take some time to fillit out.
We care about your thoughts, wecare about you know your
concerns, that maybe this theseconversations have brought up.
We are open to that.
So please fill this form out,because we're going to be doing
a fifth episode where we'regoing to be coming to those
(20:52):
comments and questions and wewant to help continue to, to
give opportunities for everyonehere at Bentley to grow in this
narrative in the way that he hasalready designed for us to.
All right, dr Matthew, we thankyou so much for being here and
if anyone wants to get in touchwith you, what's the best way?
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Yeah, I'm a professor over at Columbia International
University.
So my email benmathew at ciuedu.
It's the best way to get aholdof me.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
All right, guys.
Well, we'll see you in that Q&Aepisode.
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