July 24, 2025 • 21 mins
What happens when God redirects your carefully laid plans? Dr. Bill Jones knows this redirection intimately. Once determined to serve as an overseas church planter among unreached people groups, a pivotal conversation with three seminary graduates forever changed his trajectory, leading him to Columbia International University and an unexpected leadership path.
Dr. Jones shares how a simple yet profound analogy—comparing the world to waffles rather than pancakes—revolutionized his understanding of missions. This new perspective inspired him to found Crossover Global, one of the first mission agencies focused specifically on reaching cultural groups rather than countries. Today, that organization has planted more than 6,000 churches among Muslims and Hindus across over 30 countries—far exceeding what he might have accomplished alone.
The thread of breaking generational cycles runs powerfully through Dr. Jones' testimony. Having grown up in what he describes as an "unchurched, non-Christian, dysfunctional home" marked by addiction, mental health struggles, and broken relationships, he now leads a family transformed by faith. His daily prayer from Isaiah 59:21—that God's Spirit and Word would remain with his offspring and his offspring's offspring—reflects his passion for multi-generational impact.
As president of CIU and champion of Ben Lippen School, Dr. Jones advocates for education that equips students "from a biblical worldview to impact the nations." He believes deeply in developing both "professional ministers" and "ministering professionals," recognizing that all believers have a divine platform for influence regardless of vocation. His own family experienced the transformative power of Christian education, particularly through Ben Lippin's specialized learning support that dramatically improved his son's academic performance and life trajectory.
Listen as Dr. Jones shares practical wisdom on staying faithful in your current sphere, developing spiritual disciplines through his "five fingers" approach to Scripture, and embracing God's redirection for kingdom impact that spans generations and continents. His journey reminds us that sometimes our greatest contribution comes through surrendering our original plans to God's greater vision.
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Episode Transcript
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Mrs. Erin Kay (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode
of the Ben Lippen Podcast.
This is our summer series wherewe are getting to know people
in the Ben Lippen community,getting to know their heart, and
today I have with me Dr BillJones, and I just want to thank
you for being here with us today.
Dr. Bill Jones (00:17):
My pleasure.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:17):
I'm excited to learn more about you and who you
are.
So first share with us a littlebit about who you are and how
you are connected here to BenLippen.
Dr. Bill Jones (00:27):
Well as president of CIU and Ben
Lippen's part of CIU, so that'show I'm connected, but the
connection goes back many years.
All four of our childrengraduated from Ben Lippen, so we
have many precious memorieshere at Ben Lippen.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:45):
So, Dr.
Jones, tell us about what ledyou into Christian education.
Dr. Bill Jones (00:57):
Oh, great question.
That was not my intent, Iassure you.
I was headed overseas to be achurch planter and to share the
gospel among unreached peoplegroups and see those that came
to Christ planted in churchesand, by God's grace, see those
churches multiplied.
So in 1987, three graduates,three female graduates, of CIU
Seminary.
They visited our little churchplant in Atlanta and after a
(01:18):
while they came up to me one dayand said these were precious,
godly young ladies.
All three went to serve on themission field and they came up
to me and said that I didn'thave a vision for the world.
And I was a little indignantwhen they said that.
So I kind of puffed my chestout a little bit.
I said yes, I do.
(01:39):
And they said no, you don't.
I said yes, I do.
They said no, you don't.
You think?
In the gospel the syrup spreadsto the edges of the pancake.
The country, they said theworld's not made up of 220
pancakes, it's made up ofwaffles.
You take the syrup of God'slove and forgiveness, you pour
it on the waffle.
It gets caught in these pocketsand these pockets are cultural
people groups and there are somethat are reach people groups.
(02:01):
They have the syrup, the gospel.
But there are a lot that don'thave the gospel, they're called
unreached people groups.
And I said I get it.
They said no, you don't.
They said you need to go toColumbia International
University to really get it.
(02:21):
So that spring of 1987, I was inSingapore at the Younger
Lausanne Conference on WorldEvangelization, their Younger
Leaders Group.
There were 400 of us and Idon't know why they invited me,
but I was there and there, atthe University of Singapore,
made two life-changing decisions.
So came back to America andwithin weeks, two things we
decided.
Number one, to start a missionagency that targeted unreached
(02:44):
people groups.
Now you have to understand, inthe history of the church, the
history of missions, it wasn'tuntil 1974 that this idea of
reached and unreached peoplegroups, cultures, had really
entered into our vocabulary andmost mission well, all mission
agencies were focused oncountries, not cultures.
So we started one of the firstmission agencies focused on
(03:08):
reaching cultures with thegospel as opposed to countries.
So we made that decision.
And then the second decisionwas to enroll in the doctoral
program in missions at ColumbiaInternational University.
So then one day I told the deanof the seminary, my mentor Dr
Ken Mulholland, that God hadcalled Debbie and me to go serve
(03:31):
as church planters amongunreached people groups and he
said no, he hasn't.
And that really hurt becausethat was my passion, my heart.
But he was right, because mylanguage acquisition skills are
horrible.
He was right because mylanguage acquisition skills are
horrible.
So he said I would do bettermobilizing than evangelizing.
He felt my gifts were more inpulling teams together and
(03:54):
casting vision and creatingculture.
He saw a lot more in me than Idid, that's for sure.
So we stayed, started buildingthe little mission agency and I
wanted to send me.
I didn't see me as overseeingit and today one of the offices
is across the street and it'splanted Crossover.
(04:16):
Global just surpassed 6,000churches among Muslims and
Hindus.
It's exciting to see what'shappened.
But while I was still studying,they asked if I would teach as
an adjunct.
I said that sounds fun.
What does that mean?
They said well, I want you toteach this course.
I said great, can it counttoward my doctorate?
(04:37):
They said yes, but you have topay tuition.
I said well, great, would youpay me enough to teach it that I
can pay my tuition?
I didn't have any money.
There were three businessmen inAtlanta that were putting me
through school, so taught as anadjunct.
Then the next year they askedme to join the faculty.
It was the furthest thing frommy mind and I said, well, what
about Crossover Global?
They said, if you'll move theministry from Atlanta here to
(05:01):
Columbia, we will furnishoffices for it.
So for three years we had ouroffices on campus until we could
move across the street.
So since 1987, I've been withCIU and with Crossover Global in
various roles.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:17):
So how have you learned to listen to the voices
of others and compare that towhat the Lord is calling you to
do?
Dr. Bill Jones (05:24):
There's this principle in Scripture.
We often have what I would saya perceived calling, but that
has to be confirmed with thechurch.
So you have a young guy whosays God's called me to preach.
That may be fine and well andgood, but the church will
confirm the conviction of God'scalling.
So it's God's calling.
I feel the conviction, but it'sreally not genuine unless the
(05:48):
church confirms it.
So it's beautiful, the balance.
There's an interdependencythroughout Scripture.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:54):
I agree with that .
And when you speak about thechurch, are you speaking about
the big church, capital C, lowerchurch, little c?
Good, good.
Dr. Bill Jones (06:01):
Good.
It's the big church representedin the Little C church.
It's those that know you andthat's why it's so important to
be involved in your church.
It's the people God's calledyou to be with that.
Hebrews 10, 24, 25,.
Let us not forsake our siblingstogether, as the habit of some.
We need to be plugged in tothat local fellowship, giving to
them and let them giving backto us.
Mrs. Erin Kay (06:23):
So, crossover, global, what is your role with
them now and where are they?
Dr. Bill Jones (06:28):
Great question.
I serve as the chairman of theboard and have an incredible
team.
We have offices, maybe sixdifferent countries, I think we
minister.
We don't keep up with thenumber, you know it's not a big
deal.
We keep up with how manybaptisms, that's important to us
.
How many keep up with how manybaptisms?
That's important to us.
How many churches planted, howmany fail, how many succeed.
(06:48):
But I think we're ministeringin about the low 30s.
I think it's maybe 34 differentcountries, mostly Muslim.
Mrs. Erin Kay (06:58):
That's fantastic.
This speaks to how, again, wemight feel that we're being
called in this direction, butthe Lord has something so much
greater for your life in orderto serve His kingdom yes, that's
just a beautiful explanation ofthat through your life.
Dr. Bill Jones (07:15):
Yes, and CIU and Ben Lippen does our mission
statement.
In both we have a little extra.
We've added to the Ben Lippenmission statement, but the first
part of Ben Lippen's missionstatement is the same as CIU's
mission statement is to educatestudents from a biblical
worldview to impact the nationswith the message of Christ.
And so we see studentsgraduating from Ben Lippen and
(07:36):
from CIU going out and servingeither as professional ministers
or ministering professionals.
But we want all of ourgraduates, high school to
college, to PhD, we want themall going out to make a
difference for Christ in theirsphere of influences.
So if perhaps some listeningtoday they say I'm not in the
ministry, well, that's not true.
(07:57):
They are.
They may not be a professionalminister, but they're a
ministering professional andthey need to see their position
in the marketplace.
They need to use let me say itdifferently they need to use
that position in the marketplaceas a platform for ministry.
God has placed them exactlywhere they are for His purposes
and His purposes.
He wants us to fulfill thegreat commandment and he wants
(08:20):
us to fill the great commission.
And what a great opportunity tobe out in the marketplace or in
a neighborhood maybe it's anat-home mom to make a huge
difference for Christ in thelives of those around them and
their sphere of influence.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:34):
Yes, and I love that you touched on that about
the stay-at-home mom piece orthe stay-at-home dad.
Dr. Bill Jones (08:39):
Yes, I have a dear friend who's a stay-at-home
dad.
Same thing Find that sphere ofinfluence and use it to reach
people for Christ and to growthem in their faith.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:49):
Yes, and even with our children at home,
having our children at home,being able to pour into them.
I was a stay-at-home mom for 12years and they were wonderful
years.
I wouldn't trade for anything,but they were hard, and
sometimes you feel like you'rejust doing the same thing over
and over again and you're notgaining any traction.
I see the fruit of it now, butwhat would you say to someone
who's kind of in that statewhether they're a stay-at-home
(09:11):
parent or they're a studentwho's just maybe not
understanding what their nextsteps are, or somebody in the
professional world?
How would you explain to themstaying true to the Lord's Word
and being fruitful where theyare?
Dr. Bill Jones (09:24):
That's great.
Just the words you use remindsme of In Isaiah, chapter 59,
verse 21,.
It's a verse I pray literallyevery morning for my family, but
the phrase you were was beingtrue to His Word.
The way I pray this verseIsaiah 59, 21,.
It says May your spirit andyour word not depart from my
(09:46):
mouth, nor the mouths of myoffspring, nor the mouths of my
offspring's offspring, both nowand forever.
So when it comes to parenting, Ilike to think of it in these
terms when they're little, it'sdemanding physically.
When they get to be teenagers,it's demanding emotionally.
Oh no, it's 1101 and they'renot home yet.
(10:07):
What has happened?
When they get to college, it'sdemanding financially, so
mentally, when they're teenagers, financially.
When in their college age, andthen when they get married and
have grandchildren and they livethree states away, it's
demanding emotionally.
You know, I want thosegrandbabies.
So when we're as parents andit's so hard, the years go by
(10:28):
quickly, but the minutes drag by, sometimes very slowly.
We need to see ourselves aswe're raising world changers.
May your spirit and your wordnot depart from my mouth.
I need to be faithful and true,right where I am, because God's
called me.
Right where I am, right hereand now, and he's using me to
raise up this next generation.
And more than that, may it notdepart from their mouths.
(10:51):
But may it not depart from themouths of my offspring's
offspring.
A lot of times parents don'trealize they're not raising
children as much as they'reraising future parents and the
success of our ministries.
And this is the hard part.
It's all hard, but there aretremendous joys Grandchildren
are the reward for not murderingyour kids when they were
teenagers.
I mean, it's all hard, but I donot know how successful I will
(11:14):
be, because I'll never see thatfourth generation.
It's that fourth generation.
We're impacting, not just ourkids, but our kids' kids and
then ultimately our kids, ourchildren's, children's children.
Another verse in Isaiah, verse44, verse three, says would you
pour out your spirit on myoffspring, your blessing on my
descendants?
(11:35):
Another verse, or two later itsays May they all name your name
with honor, so being true toHis Word.
It seems so hard today, but asthe years go by, we see the
faithfulness of God, we see Hismercies, his grace poured out
upon our children and then, oneday, our children's children.
Mrs. Erin Kay (11:54):
Yes, absolutely, and we can do that, whether they
are biological children,adopted children, Spiritual
children.
Spiritual children yeah, thewhole gamut there.
So the Lord, he's a very strongpresence in your life and I
know he's been a strong presencesince at least 1987.
But tell us about your storyand how you came to know the
Lord.
Was it an introduction early inchildhood, or how did that look
(12:18):
for you?
I wish.
Dr. Bill Jones (12:19):
I grew up in an unchurched, non-Christian,
dysfunctional home.
Four grandparents, two parents,a sister, three aunts, three
uncles, seven cousins and myself.
That's 21.
That's why Isaiah 59, 21, meansa lot and I'll explain why in
just a second here.
But of those 21,.
Four alcoholics, one crystalmeth addict, four in mental
(12:41):
health hospitals, not all theirlives, but in and out.
If you understand, two suicidesit doesn't count the suicides
of married-in family to thosecousins or aunts and uncles and
four marital infidelity.
The number four comes up a lot,but it's different fours, you
understand.
So it was just.
It was sad, very sad.
(13:01):
So I didn't want to be likethem.
I don't know why, that's justthe grace of God.
So there was a real seeking forGod at a young teenage, so at
age 15, I wasn't legal to drive,but my dad let me drive anyway.
There was a monastery 13.3miles from our house in Georgia.
I grew up in Atlanta and everyI'd say on average every three
(13:25):
months, I would go to thisTrappist order of monks, this
Catholic monastery, for three,four days, depending on if it
was summer or not.
I had my own room.
I went so often it was in thebarn, upstairs, in the loft they
had boarded up a room, had heatbut didn't have air
conditioning.
My job was to collect all theeggs every morning.
(13:46):
I hated those chickens becausethey would peck or do a mess on
my hand.
I hated them.
They would peck or do a mess onmy hand, it was just I hated
them.
But then the afternoons I hadthe free run of 2,000 acres.
During the vigils to vespersthey prayed five times a day.
I'd be with them, I had mylittle own cloister and those
monks took care of me.
I did that from age 15 to 18.
(14:08):
Then I went away to college.
I went to college in Atlanta.
Three students there that werebelievers, followers of Christ,
genuine believers, loved Jesus,shared the gospel with me and I
just didn't get it.
I'd read my Bible through twice.
I knew, if I just read enoughin this book of incantations,
(14:29):
that the magic would suddenlyhappen and I would be a
different person.
But it never did.
I didn't go to church, I wentto a monastery.
I mean, Lord, what else can Ido to make this change in my
life?
And they were saying you don'tdo anything, it's all grace,
Receive the gift.
I said, well, I'm going to worka little bit harder.
So then I went to Iowa StateUniversity representing Georgia
(14:51):
Tech I don't even remember whatI was supposed to be
representing, what we were doingand a charismatic Lutheran
pastoring a Methodist church asa 21-year-old student at Iowa
State University.
He just kind of took this young18-year-old kid under his wing
that weekend or week or whateverit was, and he asked me a
(15:12):
question that navigated all themental roadblocks in my mind.
He asked if I'd ever made JesusChrist Lord of my life.
And I looked at him and I went,no, I haven't, but I want to.
And it was two o'clock in themorning, 20 degrees below zero.
It was horrible.
Went to the chapel on campus,got on my knees, prayed to
(15:32):
receive Christ.
Went to the chapel on campus,got on my knees, prayed to
receive Christ, went back to myroom, wrote the prayer down in
the middle of my Old Testamentand New Testament, my little
King James Bible, and signed itand dated it March 24th 1974.
And I still have that Bible inmy study at home, open to that
little prayer for salvation.
And God changed me.
(15:53):
So today, Debbie and I havefour married children.
So the two of us plus the eightof them is 10, 11 grandchildren
, 21,.
A totally different kind offamily.
Isaiah 59, 21,.
May your spirit and your wordnot depart from my mouth, nor
the mouths of my offspring, northe mouths of my offspring's
offspring, both now and forever.
(16:13):
It's a special verse.
Mrs. Erin Kay (16:16):
That's a wonderful story.
So, as you've gone through lifeand different challenges have
come your way, because you'vehad your experiences in the
secular world and then the worldof a saved believer, how do you
stay with the Lord, how do youkeep Him Lord of your life when
(16:38):
the difficult things happen?
Dr. Bill Jones (16:39):
We have a ministry.
It's called the Ezra Journey.
It's just some Bible studiesthat we have one that's popular
downtown.
I think somebody told me wehave about 140 men going through
it right now.
It's a two-year study of theBible from cover to cover,
except we go through itchronologically and we break it
down into 10 eras, five pairs ofopposite words, so they can
(17:00):
remember the story of the Bibleand then make sense where the
stories from the Bible fit.
So nothing, something exiting,entering, united, divided,
scattered, gathered, cominggoing.
God creates the human race outof nothing, turns the Hebrew
race into something great sizeof significance.
They exit Egypt, they enterCanaan.
The United keep stand.
The divided kings fall.
(17:21):
They exit, they're scattered toBabylon, they're gathered back
to Judah.
Four and a half centuries ofsilence, the coming of Christ,
the going of the church, andthen they can fit the stories.
It goes down deeper.
So we've had about 400 men gothrough that.
And I say that to say when westick to the Word of God, we
don't want to just master theWord of God, we want the Word of
God to master us, and it's thatI have to stay in the
(17:42):
Scriptures and studying it I'velearned, as a young Christian.
Five ways to get a grip on theScripture.
If you think of your fivefingers, the baby finger is
listening to it preached in thechurch.
The ring finger is listening toit preached in the church.
The ring finger would be readit and a lot of people those two
, but they're weak fingers.
That middle finger study it.
That's a much stronger fingerthan the other two.
(18:04):
The pointer finger would be tomemorize it.
But those four fingers are notenough to keep a grip on
anything.
You can't hardly pick up abottle of water with that fifth
finger is to meditate on it andwe have to be careful.
It's just not a commitment tothe Word of God.
But as we're spending time inthose five ways in the Word of
God, as we're getting a strongerand stronger grip, the ultimate
(18:27):
goal is to get to know the Godof the Word.
So we can't a lot of times wetend to to worship the Word of
God, but the Word of God is justa pathway to stay committed and
to know intimately the God ofthe Word.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:40):
How do you incorporate rest into your life?
Dr. Bill Jones (18:44):
That's a great question.
I think there's a rhythm anddifferent people have different
rhythms.
So you rarely will find me at abreakfast function because the
mornings I need the mornings andI have an extended time
virtually every morning Notevery single one, but virtually
every single one and then I tryto get after it as hard and fast
(19:06):
as possible the rest of the day, but then I don't schedule a
whole lot of nights out.
And the way I like to say it isI don't want to burn out.
Okay, as doing too much for toolong, I definitely don't want
to rust out.
I would much rather burn outthan rust out.
Rusting out is we don't doanything, I just want to wear
out.
You know, eventually we come toan end, right, and I want to be
(19:30):
that in God's timing.
I don't want to accelerate itand I definitely don't want to
sit around and do nothing.
That's not who I am.
I want to wear out for God'sglory.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:40):
I love that Wearing out for God's glory.
So, as we wrap this up today,is there any closing thoughts
that you would like to sharewith our listeners as we wrap up
?
Dr. Bill Jones (19:48):
Oh, I'm just.
I'm grateful to God for theministry of Ben Lippen.
To give you an example of ourfour children one of them three
of the four had learningdisabilities.
One graduated from Furman, youknow.
Ben Lippen taught them how tocope in spite of their
limitations, how to excel.
But I'll mention one of thefour specifically.
(20:10):
I wanted to keep them publicschool because my passion is
evangelism.
I want people to know there isa God that can change their life
, that can change their 21s,right, I mean, if he changed my
life as much as he did, I wantthem to know that he can change
their life.
So I want to stay in the publicschool system to reach people
(20:34):
who didn't know Christ.
But one of our children wastesting in the 30 percentile and
wasn't getting the time orattention.
So understand how I say thisreluctantly.
I love Ben Lippen because it'spart of our family, but I don't
see a lot of lost people,non-christians there, right,
most are strong followers ofChrist.
So we enrolled all of them atBen Lippen, but particularly for
(20:58):
the youngest one, and enrolledhim in the NILD, the National
Institute in LearningDisabilities, which was housed
at Ben Lippen at the time, andin one year he went from testing
in the 30 percentile to testingin the 85 percentile in just
one year.
Well, when he went to gradschool he made straight A's in
(21:19):
his MBA.
But he tells me this now.
He says Dad before.
I was eight years old, thirdgrade.
I don't remember anythingbefore the age of eight, but he
has like a photographic memorynow and I attribute God gets the
glory, but I give Ben Lippenthe credit.
I'm eternally indebted to BenLippen.
(21:40):
It has an incredible ministryto our community and to other
nations because we bring ininternational students.
But it's changing families.
I remember there was a time myyoungest the one that was
impacted perhaps the most camehome and he said I will never
send my kids to Ben Lippen.
Well, today it's.
(22:01):
I will never send my kidsanywhere else but Ben Lippen.
It's made a generational impacton my family and I'm grateful
to be a part.
Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode
of the Ben Lippen Podcast.
This is our summer series wherewe are getting to know people
in the Ben Lippen community,getting to know their heart, and
today I have with me Dr BillJones, and I just want to thank
you for being here with us today.
Dr. Bill Jones (00:17):
My pleasure.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:17):
I'm excited to learn more about you and who you
are.
So first share with us a littlebit about who you are and how
you are connected here to BenLippen.
Dr. Bill Jones (00:27):
Well as president of CIU and Ben
Lippen's part of CIU, so that'show I'm connected, but the
connection goes back many years.
All four of our childrengraduated from Ben Lippen, so we
have many precious memorieshere at Ben Lippen.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:45):
So, Dr.
Jones, tell us about what ledyou into Christian education.
Dr. Bill Jones (00:57):
Oh, great question.
That was not my intent, Iassure you.
I was headed overseas to be achurch planter and to share the
gospel among unreached peoplegroups and see those that came
to Christ planted in churchesand, by God's grace, see those
churches multiplied.
So in 1987, three graduates,three female graduates, of CIU
Seminary.
They visited our little churchplant in Atlanta and after a
(01:18):
while they came up to me one dayand said these were precious,
godly young ladies.
All three went to serve on themission field and they came up
to me and said that I didn'thave a vision for the world.
And I was a little indignantwhen they said that.
So I kind of puffed my chestout a little bit.
I said yes, I do.
(01:39):
And they said no, you don't.
I said yes, I do.
They said no, you don't.
You think?
In the gospel the syrup spreadsto the edges of the pancake.
The country, they said theworld's not made up of 220
pancakes, it's made up ofwaffles.
You take the syrup of God'slove and forgiveness, you pour
it on the waffle.
It gets caught in these pocketsand these pockets are cultural
people groups and there are somethat are reach people groups.
(02:01):
They have the syrup, the gospel.
But there are a lot that don'thave the gospel, they're called
unreached people groups.
And I said I get it.
They said no, you don't.
They said you need to go toColumbia International
University to really get it.
(02:21):
So that spring of 1987, I was inSingapore at the Younger
Lausanne Conference on WorldEvangelization, their Younger
Leaders Group.
There were 400 of us and Idon't know why they invited me,
but I was there and there, atthe University of Singapore,
made two life-changing decisions.
So came back to America andwithin weeks, two things we
decided.
Number one, to start a missionagency that targeted unreached
(02:44):
people groups.
Now you have to understand, inthe history of the church, the
history of missions, it wasn'tuntil 1974 that this idea of
reached and unreached peoplegroups, cultures, had really
entered into our vocabulary andmost mission well, all mission
agencies were focused oncountries, not cultures.
So we started one of the firstmission agencies focused on
(03:08):
reaching cultures with thegospel as opposed to countries.
So we made that decision.
And then the second decisionwas to enroll in the doctoral
program in missions at ColumbiaInternational University.
So then one day I told the deanof the seminary, my mentor Dr
Ken Mulholland, that God hadcalled Debbie and me to go serve
(03:31):
as church planters amongunreached people groups and he
said no, he hasn't.
And that really hurt becausethat was my passion, my heart.
But he was right, because mylanguage acquisition skills are
horrible.
He was right because mylanguage acquisition skills are
horrible.
So he said I would do bettermobilizing than evangelizing.
He felt my gifts were more inpulling teams together and
(03:54):
casting vision and creatingculture.
He saw a lot more in me than Idid, that's for sure.
So we stayed, started buildingthe little mission agency and I
wanted to send me.
I didn't see me as overseeingit and today one of the offices
is across the street and it'splanted Crossover.
(04:16):
Global just surpassed 6,000churches among Muslims and
Hindus.
It's exciting to see what'shappened.
But while I was still studying,they asked if I would teach as
an adjunct.
I said that sounds fun.
What does that mean?
They said well, I want you toteach this course.
I said great, can it counttoward my doctorate?
(04:37):
They said yes, but you have topay tuition.
I said well, great, would youpay me enough to teach it that I
can pay my tuition?
I didn't have any money.
There were three businessmen inAtlanta that were putting me
through school, so taught as anadjunct.
Then the next year they askedme to join the faculty.
It was the furthest thing frommy mind and I said, well, what
about Crossover Global?
They said, if you'll move theministry from Atlanta here to
(05:01):
Columbia, we will furnishoffices for it.
So for three years we had ouroffices on campus until we could
move across the street.
So since 1987, I've been withCIU and with Crossover Global in
various roles.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:17):
So how have you learned to listen to the voices
of others and compare that towhat the Lord is calling you to
do?
Dr. Bill Jones (05:24):
There's this principle in Scripture.
We often have what I would saya perceived calling, but that
has to be confirmed with thechurch.
So you have a young guy whosays God's called me to preach.
That may be fine and well andgood, but the church will
confirm the conviction of God'scalling.
So it's God's calling.
I feel the conviction, but it'sreally not genuine unless the
(05:48):
church confirms it.
So it's beautiful, the balance.
There's an interdependencythroughout Scripture.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:54):
I agree with that .
And when you speak about thechurch, are you speaking about
the big church, capital C, lowerchurch, little c?
Good, good.
Dr. Bill Jones (06:01):
Good.
It's the big church representedin the Little C church.
It's those that know you andthat's why it's so important to
be involved in your church.
It's the people God's calledyou to be with that.
Hebrews 10, 24, 25,.
Let us not forsake our siblingstogether, as the habit of some.
We need to be plugged in tothat local fellowship, giving to
them and let them giving backto us.
Mrs. Erin Kay (06:23):
So, crossover, global, what is your role with
them now and where are they?
Dr. Bill Jones (06:28):
Great question.
I serve as the chairman of theboard and have an incredible
team.
We have offices, maybe sixdifferent countries, I think we
minister.
We don't keep up with thenumber, you know it's not a big
deal.
We keep up with how manybaptisms, that's important to us
.
How many keep up with how manybaptisms?
That's important to us.
How many churches planted, howmany fail, how many succeed.
(06:48):
But I think we're ministeringin about the low 30s.
I think it's maybe 34 differentcountries, mostly Muslim.
Mrs. Erin Kay (06:58):
That's fantastic.
This speaks to how, again, wemight feel that we're being
called in this direction, butthe Lord has something so much
greater for your life in orderto serve His kingdom yes, that's
just a beautiful explanation ofthat through your life.
Dr. Bill Jones (07:15):
Yes, and CIU and Ben Lippen does our mission
statement.
In both we have a little extra.
We've added to the Ben Lippenmission statement, but the first
part of Ben Lippen's missionstatement is the same as CIU's
mission statement is to educatestudents from a biblical
worldview to impact the nationswith the message of Christ.
And so we see studentsgraduating from Ben Lippen and
(07:36):
from CIU going out and servingeither as professional ministers
or ministering professionals.
But we want all of ourgraduates, high school to
college, to PhD, we want themall going out to make a
difference for Christ in theirsphere of influences.
So if perhaps some listeningtoday they say I'm not in the
ministry, well, that's not true.
(07:57):
They are.
They may not be a professionalminister, but they're a
ministering professional andthey need to see their position
in the marketplace.
They need to use let me say itdifferently they need to use
that position in the marketplaceas a platform for ministry.
God has placed them exactlywhere they are for His purposes
and His purposes.
He wants us to fulfill thegreat commandment and he wants
(08:20):
us to fill the great commission.
And what a great opportunity tobe out in the marketplace or in
a neighborhood maybe it's anat-home mom to make a huge
difference for Christ in thelives of those around them and
their sphere of influence.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:34):
Yes, and I love that you touched on that about
the stay-at-home mom piece orthe stay-at-home dad.
Dr. Bill Jones (08:39):
Yes, I have a dear friend who's a stay-at-home
dad.
Same thing Find that sphere ofinfluence and use it to reach
people for Christ and to growthem in their faith.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:49):
Yes, and even with our children at home,
having our children at home,being able to pour into them.
I was a stay-at-home mom for 12years and they were wonderful
years.
I wouldn't trade for anything,but they were hard, and
sometimes you feel like you'rejust doing the same thing over
and over again and you're notgaining any traction.
I see the fruit of it now, butwhat would you say to someone
who's kind of in that statewhether they're a stay-at-home
(09:11):
parent or they're a studentwho's just maybe not
understanding what their nextsteps are, or somebody in the
professional world?
How would you explain to themstaying true to the Lord's Word
and being fruitful where theyare?
Dr. Bill Jones (09:24):
That's great.
Just the words you use remindsme of In Isaiah, chapter 59,
verse 21,.
It's a verse I pray literallyevery morning for my family, but
the phrase you were was beingtrue to His Word.
The way I pray this verseIsaiah 59, 21,.
It says May your spirit andyour word not depart from my
(09:46):
mouth, nor the mouths of myoffspring, nor the mouths of my
offspring's offspring, both nowand forever.
So when it comes to parenting, Ilike to think of it in these
terms when they're little, it'sdemanding physically.
When they get to be teenagers,it's demanding emotionally.
Oh no, it's 1101 and they'renot home yet.
(10:07):
What has happened?
When they get to college, it'sdemanding financially, so
mentally, when they're teenagers, financially.
When in their college age, andthen when they get married and
have grandchildren and they livethree states away, it's
demanding emotionally.
You know, I want thosegrandbabies.
So when we're as parents andit's so hard, the years go by
(10:28):
quickly, but the minutes drag by, sometimes very slowly.
We need to see ourselves aswe're raising world changers.
May your spirit and your wordnot depart from my mouth.
I need to be faithful and true,right where I am, because God's
called me.
Right where I am, right hereand now, and he's using me to
raise up this next generation.
And more than that, may it notdepart from their mouths.
(10:51):
But may it not depart from themouths of my offspring's
offspring.
A lot of times parents don'trealize they're not raising
children as much as they'reraising future parents and the
success of our ministries.
And this is the hard part.
It's all hard, but there aretremendous joys Grandchildren
are the reward for not murderingyour kids when they were
teenagers.
I mean, it's all hard, but I donot know how successful I will
(11:14):
be, because I'll never see thatfourth generation.
It's that fourth generation.
We're impacting, not just ourkids, but our kids' kids and
then ultimately our kids, ourchildren's, children's children.
Another verse in Isaiah, verse44, verse three, says would you
pour out your spirit on myoffspring, your blessing on my
descendants?
(11:35):
Another verse, or two later itsays May they all name your name
with honor, so being true toHis Word.
It seems so hard today, but asthe years go by, we see the
faithfulness of God, we see Hismercies, his grace poured out
upon our children and then, oneday, our children's children.
Mrs. Erin Kay (11:54):
Yes, absolutely, and we can do that, whether they
are biological children,adopted children, Spiritual
children.
Spiritual children yeah, thewhole gamut there.
So the Lord, he's a very strongpresence in your life and I
know he's been a strong presencesince at least 1987.
But tell us about your storyand how you came to know the
Lord.
Was it an introduction early inchildhood, or how did that look
(12:18):
for you?
I wish.
Dr. Bill Jones (12:19):
I grew up in an unchurched, non-Christian,
dysfunctional home.
Four grandparents, two parents,a sister, three aunts, three
uncles, seven cousins and myself.
That's 21.
That's why Isaiah 59, 21, meansa lot and I'll explain why in
just a second here.
But of those 21,.
Four alcoholics, one crystalmeth addict, four in mental
(12:41):
health hospitals, not all theirlives, but in and out.
If you understand, two suicidesit doesn't count the suicides
of married-in family to thosecousins or aunts and uncles and
four marital infidelity.
The number four comes up a lot,but it's different fours, you
understand.
So it was just.
It was sad, very sad.
(13:01):
So I didn't want to be likethem.
I don't know why, that's justthe grace of God.
So there was a real seeking forGod at a young teenage, so at
age 15, I wasn't legal to drive,but my dad let me drive anyway.
There was a monastery 13.3miles from our house in Georgia.
I grew up in Atlanta and everyI'd say on average every three
(13:25):
months, I would go to thisTrappist order of monks, this
Catholic monastery, for three,four days, depending on if it
was summer or not.
I had my own room.
I went so often it was in thebarn, upstairs, in the loft they
had boarded up a room, had heatbut didn't have air
conditioning.
My job was to collect all theeggs every morning.
(13:46):
I hated those chickens becausethey would peck or do a mess on
my hand.
I hated them.
They would peck or do a mess onmy hand, it was just I hated
them.
But then the afternoons I hadthe free run of 2,000 acres.
During the vigils to vespersthey prayed five times a day.
I'd be with them, I had mylittle own cloister and those
monks took care of me.
I did that from age 15 to 18.
(14:08):
Then I went away to college.
I went to college in Atlanta.
Three students there that werebelievers, followers of Christ,
genuine believers, loved Jesus,shared the gospel with me and I
just didn't get it.
I'd read my Bible through twice.
I knew, if I just read enoughin this book of incantations,
(14:29):
that the magic would suddenlyhappen and I would be a
different person.
But it never did.
I didn't go to church, I wentto a monastery.
I mean, Lord, what else can Ido to make this change in my
life?
And they were saying you don'tdo anything, it's all grace,
Receive the gift.
I said, well, I'm going to worka little bit harder.
So then I went to Iowa StateUniversity representing Georgia
(14:51):
Tech I don't even remember whatI was supposed to be
representing, what we were doingand a charismatic Lutheran
pastoring a Methodist church asa 21-year-old student at Iowa
State University.
He just kind of took this young18-year-old kid under his wing
that weekend or week or whateverit was, and he asked me a
(15:12):
question that navigated all themental roadblocks in my mind.
He asked if I'd ever made JesusChrist Lord of my life.
And I looked at him and I went,no, I haven't, but I want to.
And it was two o'clock in themorning, 20 degrees below zero.
It was horrible.
Went to the chapel on campus,got on my knees, prayed to
(15:32):
receive Christ.
Went to the chapel on campus,got on my knees, prayed to
receive Christ, went back to myroom, wrote the prayer down in
the middle of my Old Testamentand New Testament, my little
King James Bible, and signed itand dated it March 24th 1974.
And I still have that Bible inmy study at home, open to that
little prayer for salvation.
And God changed me.
(15:53):
So today, Debbie and I havefour married children.
So the two of us plus the eightof them is 10, 11 grandchildren
, 21,.
A totally different kind offamily.
Isaiah 59, 21,.
May your spirit and your wordnot depart from my mouth, nor
the mouths of my offspring, northe mouths of my offspring's
offspring, both now and forever.
(16:13):
It's a special verse.
Mrs. Erin Kay (16:16):
That's a wonderful story.
So, as you've gone through lifeand different challenges have
come your way, because you'vehad your experiences in the
secular world and then the worldof a saved believer, how do you
stay with the Lord, how do youkeep Him Lord of your life when
(16:38):
the difficult things happen?
Dr. Bill Jones (16:39):
We have a ministry.
It's called the Ezra Journey.
It's just some Bible studiesthat we have one that's popular
downtown.
I think somebody told me wehave about 140 men going through
it right now.
It's a two-year study of theBible from cover to cover,
except we go through itchronologically and we break it
down into 10 eras, five pairs ofopposite words, so they can
(17:00):
remember the story of the Bibleand then make sense where the
stories from the Bible fit.
So nothing, something exiting,entering, united, divided,
scattered, gathered, cominggoing.
God creates the human race outof nothing, turns the Hebrew
race into something great sizeof significance.
They exit Egypt, they enterCanaan.
The United keep stand.
The divided kings fall.
(17:21):
They exit, they're scattered toBabylon, they're gathered back
to Judah.
Four and a half centuries ofsilence, the coming of Christ,
the going of the church, andthen they can fit the stories.
It goes down deeper.
So we've had about 400 men gothrough that.
And I say that to say when westick to the Word of God, we
don't want to just master theWord of God, we want the Word of
God to master us, and it's thatI have to stay in the
(17:42):
Scriptures and studying it I'velearned, as a young Christian.
Five ways to get a grip on theScripture.
If you think of your fivefingers, the baby finger is
listening to it preached in thechurch.
The ring finger is listening toit preached in the church.
The ring finger would be readit and a lot of people those two
, but they're weak fingers.
That middle finger study it.
That's a much stronger fingerthan the other two.
(18:04):
The pointer finger would be tomemorize it.
But those four fingers are notenough to keep a grip on
anything.
You can't hardly pick up abottle of water with that fifth
finger is to meditate on it andwe have to be careful.
It's just not a commitment tothe Word of God.
But as we're spending time inthose five ways in the Word of
God, as we're getting a strongerand stronger grip, the ultimate
(18:27):
goal is to get to know the Godof the Word.
So we can't a lot of times wetend to to worship the Word of
God, but the Word of God is justa pathway to stay committed and
to know intimately the God ofthe Word.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:40):
How do you incorporate rest into your life?
Dr. Bill Jones (18:44):
That's a great question.
I think there's a rhythm anddifferent people have different
rhythms.
So you rarely will find me at abreakfast function because the
mornings I need the mornings andI have an extended time
virtually every morning Notevery single one, but virtually
every single one and then I tryto get after it as hard and fast
(19:06):
as possible the rest of the day, but then I don't schedule a
whole lot of nights out.
And the way I like to say it isI don't want to burn out.
Okay, as doing too much for toolong, I definitely don't want
to rust out.
I would much rather burn outthan rust out.
Rusting out is we don't doanything, I just want to wear
out.
You know, eventually we come toan end, right, and I want to be
(19:30):
that in God's timing.
I don't want to accelerate itand I definitely don't want to
sit around and do nothing.
That's not who I am.
I want to wear out for God'sglory.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:40):
I love that Wearing out for God's glory.
So, as we wrap this up today,is there any closing thoughts
that you would like to sharewith our listeners as we wrap up
?
Dr. Bill Jones (19:48):
Oh, I'm just.
I'm grateful to God for theministry of Ben Lippen.
To give you an example of ourfour children one of them three
of the four had learningdisabilities.
One graduated from Furman, youknow.
Ben Lippen taught them how tocope in spite of their
limitations, how to excel.
But I'll mention one of thefour specifically.
(20:10):
I wanted to keep them publicschool because my passion is
evangelism.
I want people to know there isa God that can change their life
, that can change their 21s,right, I mean, if he changed my
life as much as he did, I wantthem to know that he can change
their life.
So I want to stay in the publicschool system to reach people
(20:34):
who didn't know Christ.
But one of our children wastesting in the 30 percentile and
wasn't getting the time orattention.
So understand how I say thisreluctantly.
I love Ben Lippen because it'spart of our family, but I don't
see a lot of lost people,non-christians there, right,
most are strong followers ofChrist.
So we enrolled all of them atBen Lippen, but particularly for
(20:58):
the youngest one, and enrolledhim in the NILD, the National
Institute in LearningDisabilities, which was housed
at Ben Lippen at the time, andin one year he went from testing
in the 30 percentile to testingin the 85 percentile in just
one year.
Well, when he went to gradschool he made straight A's in
(21:19):
his MBA.
But he tells me this now.
He says Dad before.
I was eight years old, thirdgrade.
I don't remember anythingbefore the age of eight, but he
has like a photographic memorynow and I attribute God gets the
glory, but I give Ben Lippenthe credit.
I'm eternally indebted to BenLippen.
(21:40):
It has an incredible ministryto our community and to other
nations because we bring ininternational students.
But it's changing families.
I remember there was a time myyoungest the one that was
impacted perhaps the most camehome and he said I will never
send my kids to Ben Lippen.
Well, today it's.
(22:01):
I will never send my kidsanywhere else but Ben Lippen.
It's made a generational impacton my family and I'm grateful
to be a part.
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