February 6, 2025 • 22 mins
Dr. Ben Mathew from Columbia International University joins us to explore the intricate relationship between the gospel and racial discussions, guided by a reflective heart posture. Discover how good theology serves as a vital foundation for addressing race through a biblical perspective, using the rich framework of creation, fall, cross, redemption, and glory. While racial reconciliation might not be the Bible's central theme, it emerges as a pivotal subplot in the greater narrative of redemption and God's glory.
We journey into the profound concept of intrinsic human value through the eyes of faith and theology. Inspired by a child's innocent perspective and the wisdom of C.S. Lewis, we unravel the sacredness of each individual, created in God's image, worthy of love and respect. The creation story reinforces our collective unity and "very good" nature before the fall. Delving into the tale of the Tower of Babel, we set the stage for understanding our identity, value, and purpose, offering a biblical lens to navigate race and diversity discussions.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into the divine plan for redemption and unity as showcased in Genesis. The contrast between human ambition in the Tower of Babel story and God's redemptive promise to Abram illuminates the path from division to unity. By recentering our identity in God's image, we unveil a hope that transcends cultural and ethnic distinctions. Engage with us by submitting your thoughts and questions for Dr. Mathew, as we address them in our concluding episode. Connect with Dr. Matthew at ben.mathew@ciu.edu and be part of this transformative dialogue.
Click here to submit your questions and comments for Dr. Mathew to review.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
We are diving into the secondepisode of our series with Dr.
Ben Mathew from ColumbiaInternational University, and
this series is about the gospeland racial discussions here at
Ben Lippen School.
So if you missed the firstepisode, go back, have a listen
and then come back to this one.
(00:21):
It'll make a whole lot moresense with what we're talking
about.
So welcome, Dr.
Mathew, we're glad to have youhere.
Dr. Ben Mathew (00:25):
Great to be back again.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:26):
So in the last episode we talked a little bit
about our heart posture and nowthat we have established our
personal heart posture, we cannow step more fully or be more
present with developing thatbiblical theology of race and
what that looks like, examiningeverything through the lens of
scripture and what the Lord says.
So I turn that over to you.
(00:46):
This is definitely yourwheelhouse.
Dr. Ben Mathew (00:48):
Yeah, I so appreciate that we can start
that first episode on heartposture With the recognition
that may be continual work thatwe need to do.
As we get into these otherepisodes Other responses may
come up, other recognitions ofhow you're feeling about this,
and so feel free to go back tothe encouragements that we
discussed in that first episode.
(01:09):
It's not kind of a once anddone kind of thing, as much as
it is an ongoing, as we'reengaging with these ideas.
But the way that I always liketo kind of move forward with
this, because we do want to getand that's kind of getting to
some of our later episodes, wedo want to be very practical and
think about the applications ofthis, particularly within Ben
Lippen, within your family,within your community.
(01:29):
So we are kind of moving thebus down there.
But we can't have goodapplication unless we have good
theology.
Read almost any of the epistles.
You'll see that they almost allstart with significant and
robust theology that theninforms practical ways of living
.
I think that's always a goodmodel to have and so for me, in
(02:01):
this area of race, of ethnicity,of multicultural discussions,
before we get into all I can sayit that way to kind of organize
our ways of thinking throughthis issue of race and ethnicity
.
It's called biblical theologyand it's been helpful.
(02:24):
That, I think, really does agood job of trying to help you
understand essentially whatbiblical theology is is seeing a
story, and I think we can allappreciate a good story, whether
you've read a book or seen amovie or gone to a play.
We all know the basic elementsof a good story Once upon a time
and in the beginning they haveall the characters and the
setting and the development.
(02:44):
But then something difficulthappens, some problem enters
into this individual's life butthrough progress and effort,
with some bumps and bruisesalong the way, they're able to
somewhat overcome the situationthat's come on to them with the
hopes of resolution.
Or often what we say, they alllived happily ever after of
(03:06):
resolution.
Or often what we say, and theyall lived happily ever after.
That idea of what entails a goodstory really, in my opinion,
comes from the best story of all, namely the gospel.
The Bible starts with, not onceupon a time, but in the
beginning, god and Genesis 1 and2 set up the characters, the
setting, which then Genesis 3helps us understand the problem,
particularly of the fall, andwe see that in human throughout
(03:28):
generations.
But God doesn't give up on hisstory.
In fact, he enters into hisstory through the person and
work of Jesus Christ, a lifethat's perfect, that is
sacrificed on a Roman cross.
But three days later he'sresurrected and he's now in the
midst of doing this redemption,this reconciliation work that
we're in right now.
Here we are trying to be partof God's work because one day
(03:51):
the king is coming back.
Jesus will return and will makeall things right.
It's not just that they alllived happily ever after, it's
that the king returns and wins.
The main story, just to be clear, the main story of the Bible is
not racial reconciliation.
We need to start there becauseI think sometimes we make the
issue of race maybe too much andwe try to push it into
(04:13):
scripture in ways that it's not.
It's what theologians calledeisegesis, reading into the text
rather than allowing the textto speak to us, pulling out of
exegetical work.
The main story of the Bible isnot about race.
And yet, as DA Carson, anothertheologian up at Trinity
Evangelical School, says, we cantrace other stories under the
(04:34):
bigger story.
The big story is the redemptionof mankind through the sacrifice
of Jesus Christ.
That's the big story, what somecall the meta-narrative
over-story but there are otherlittle stories that connect with
that, using that samescaffolding creation, fall,
frost, redemption, glory.
So for our next couple ofpodcast episodes, I want to use
(04:55):
those five particular areas togive us some scaffolding
framework and help us understandthat, while race is not the
main story of the gospel, it isactually part of a story of the
gospel.
It's one aspect that isintended to not just bless
humanity but ultimately to giveglory to God, and so that's kind
(05:16):
of the framework if that kindof makes sense of what I'm
hoping to get into with oursessions here.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:21):
Yeah, that does make sense.
It's something that we shouldfocus on and examine, but it
shouldn't be all that we focuson and examine as humans and or
as Christians and sometimes itcan become all consuming because
we have so many differentvoices and narratives and
changing scripts happeningaround us.
It can, it can be a distractionat times, all right.
(05:41):
So something else that I thinkthat is important to do here is
just to do some quickdefinitions of race, ethnicity
and culture, and what are thedifferences between those three
things?
Dr. Ben Mathew (05:53):
Great question.
Yeah, this is one thatsometimes it's difficult to make
those definitions, because ifyou look up 20 books you'll get
20 different answers on whatthat means.
I think kind of a shortenedversion that I often go by is
the recognition that race issomewhat of a bit of a made up
concept.
I mean, there's there's a longhistory as to how the idea of
(06:13):
race whether it be white orblack or or Asian or whatever
that unfortunately has a prettydark history to it, and so the
term race technically doesn'thave any like biological or
really any kind of physiologicalreality to it.
It's a made up term that wasused in a lot of ways to really
(06:35):
hurt people, and so I often saythat race is not real but racism
is very real, and so thedifference that I think about
when it comes to that, I thinkwhat we're we are talking about
is ethnicity.
Ethnicity are some of thosecultural distinctions.
For instance, I'm from anIndian background.
My parents were born and raisedin India, but they came to
Canada, so I was born and raisedin Canada and so, as you kind
(06:57):
of said in my bio, I was able tokind of understand the
differences, what somesociologists called code
switching.
When I was with my Indianfamily, my cousins, we would eat
and dress and talk and respondto certain realities that were
common to our ethnic constructthere.
But when I was at school or achurch which was predominantly
(07:17):
in a white Canadian context,there were different ways and so
understandably if I can giveyou one example with my Indian
family, we didn't talk a lotabout ice hockey.
Somewhat understandably, it'snot part of their culture.
A lot of players on Team Indiafor hockey, surprisingly but
when I was with my Canadianfriends that was always part of
the conversation.
And so I think ethnicity is amuch more helpful term in that
we're trying to engage with thecultural differences that are
(07:40):
found within people groups, whatthe New Testament often refers
to as ethnos that you'll see,this idea of nations or
different people groups.
Sometimes race is used for that.
It's kind of used as asynonymous term.
We don't have enough time inthis episode to get into the
history of it, but that's why weeven use it in this, because
it's kind of a shorthand forwhat I think a lot of times
we're talking about when itcomes to ethnicity and culture
(08:02):
in some of those ways.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:03):
That ties back so well to the point that you made
in the first episode when youwere talking about Paul and him
kind of becoming but doing itresponsibly.
Dr. Ben Mathew (08:13):
Yeah, that his ethnic, cultural realities and
that's what I like about it isthat he doesn't ignore them
they're still light enough tohim that he can adjust as needed
.
Jewish context I'll be veryJewish.
Greek context I'll be veryGreek, and so ethnicity was
something and I think that'spart of what we want to get into
that even starts from thisfirst issue of creation, right?
So that's kind of the firstpart of this biblical theology
(08:35):
is that in the beginning, whenGod creates, particularly when
he comes to the creation ofmankind, there's this great
theological concept of beingmade in the image of God.
You want to impress yourfriends at lunch day?
Use the Imago Dei, get back tosome ancient, and I think it's a
concept most of us, asChristians, are familiar with.
There's a lot to unpack withthis.
There's ideas of relationship.
(08:56):
That's part of the Imago Deibeing made in the image of a God
who is a community himself.
Let us make man in our image.
I think there's ideas ofreflection, of who we get to
reflect to the world.
I think there's aspects ofreigning and kind of for lack of
a better way of sayingco-management that God instills
in us as stewardship.
He doesn't need our help, buthe wants to work with us, Like
(09:19):
he wants to partner and co-laborwith us.
I think that's all built intothe Imago Dei as well.
But one of the aspects I thinkthat is also important is this
idea of worth is intrinsic valueof humans that is unlike
anything else in creation.
And so this notion of who weare, that when the Lord formed
(09:40):
the man, this idea, as he saysin Genesis 1, let us make kind
in our image, after our likeness.
So he created them in the imageof God.
He created them male and female.
The example I often think aboutthe house I used to live at with
my wife and my kids.
There was a school at the endof the street where it was a
grade school, so lots of littlekids, and I remember one day
(10:01):
dropping my kids off and they'rekind of in the middle of the
road.
Was this squirrel that I wantto be careful how I say this had
had had its last nut, if I cansay it that way?
It did not win the battleagainst whatever cars was
crashing going through there,and so it was kind of.
One of my kids noticed I saidDad, look at the dead squirrel.
And sure enough, it actuallyled to a great conversation and
(10:22):
I said why do you think it'sinteresting that all of us are
just driving past this deadsquirrel in the road?
And one of my kids said well,because it's just a squirrel.
I said I think that's the rightanswer.
It's like we're not looking tohit the squirrel.
That'd be another whole issue.
But there's a dead squirrel inthe which.
I asked them the next question.
I said but what if it was oneof your friends that are going
(10:43):
to school?
They were crossing the streetand one of your friends got hit
by a car.
What do you think we should dothen?
Oh, Dada, we should stop.
We should stop and help thatlittle kid.
I said but why, If you're notstopping for the squirrel, why
stop for your friend?
To which my kid.
You know, the greatest truthscomes out of the smallest minds
and hearts.
But they said because God lovesthem.
I just remember that responseof hearing them say they
(11:05):
understood, even at that youngage.
The difference between ananimal and a human is because of
how God sees them.
It's not that God doesn't careabout that squirrel.
He cares even for the birds ofthe air, the foxes, and he cares
about creation.
But there's a unique andintrinsic value that he puts on
humans that I think needs tostart our conversation.
(11:26):
It's not first about race, it'sactually first about being
loved by a God who cares for us.
That, to me, centers my mindand heart on how we need to
start this conversation.
Cs Lewis has a great quote wherehe talks about this idea that
there are no ordinary people.
You have never talked to a meremortal.
Next to the blessed sacramentitself, your neighbor is the
(11:48):
holiest object presented to yoursenses.
Wow, Isn't that just great?
Yeah, and what if we startthere?
What if we, instead of saying,OK, that person's black, that
person's white, that person'sAsian, Again, we're going to get
to some of those, but what ifwe start with?
That person is a holyindividual made in the image of
God that God loves.
And if that can be our startingpoint, I think that really
(12:11):
helps us engage with so many ofthe other discussions we need to
have as well.
Mrs. Erin Kay (12:15):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And in the creation story yousee, god made this and it was
good and he made this and it wasgood.
But then when he got to man, itwas very good because we're set
above.
Dr. Ben Mathew (12:24):
Yeah, our identity is from God.
This whole idea, this purposeis from God.
Our value and, to be honest,the discussion of race and
ethnicity is actually not in thebeginning, largely because
there's just two people there.
There is no discussion ofdiversity when you only got two
humans to start the story,Because I think God wants to not
start with diversity.
He wants to start with unity ofwho we are made in his image,
(12:50):
our identity, our value, ourpurpose.
Now we're going to get to someof the other stuff, but we need
to start at the beginning who weare made in the image of God,
Absolutely.
Mrs. Erin Kay (12:54):
So the fall you have creation and then we have
very, you know, Genesis goesright quickly into the fall.
Dr. Ben Mathew (13:00):
And it does, and that's part of the ways I try
to think about this.
We can't start at the fall.
We need to understand where wecame from.
That informs the fall Meaning.
We can't know what the fall isunless we've understood where
we've fallen from.
We started in relationship withGod, being made in value and
worth.
Genesis 3, we know the storyhow Satan comes in and, through
(13:20):
temptation, adam and Eve rebel.
They want to essentially do ittheir own way, in rebellion to
God, and that causes us, causesthem, to be separated and causes
us as humanity to be brokenfrom loving relationship.
I try to fast forward a little.
Genesis 3 most definitely isthe fall of humanity, but I use
(13:44):
another passage in Genesis 11 toinform a little bit as it
relates to this discussion ofracial reconciliation, because
of some of the things that we'regoing to get into some future
podcasts.
Genesis 11, some of you knowit's a well-known story of the
Tower of Babel.
This desire, as it says inGenesis 11, 4, come, let us
build ourselves a city and atower with its top to the
heavens.
Let us this is the Hemanspeaking Let us make a name for
ourselves, lest we be dispersedover the face of the whole earth
(14:06):
.
So we've got to do a littlecontext.
This is coming after the floodNoah and his family on the ark.
The waters have started torecede, the flood has been put
away, ark has now been opened,noah and his family is given
this commandment to be fruitfuland multiply and to disperse
amongst the earth.
It's kind of like a redoing ofthe garden, but instead of going
out, the descendants of Noahstay together, and when they
(14:28):
stay together, they come up withthis plan let's go do this
thing, let's make it up to God.
But again, it's not so they canbe in relationship with the God
.
As the text says, let's make aname for ourselves.
If there's one thing that thefall has done to humanity, it
has made us the center of thestory.
Let us make a name forourselves, and we've been
struggling with that since dayone.
(14:49):
And so I look at that desire,the evil desire of humans to
build a tower to reach God.
And then you see the responseof God accordingly Genesis 11,
verses 7 and 8.
And then the Lord said come,let us go down.
So again you see the parallelHumans want to go up.
God says I'm coming down andconfused their language so that
(15:11):
they may not understand oneanother's speech.
So the Lord dispersed them fromthere over the face of the
earth, and this is what a lot oftheologians recognize as kind
of the beginning of the nations,the table of nations as we kind
of refer to it.
This idea that when man in hisrebellion wants to move to God,
to make a name for himself, godin judgment and here's the ways
(15:33):
I often try to think about itGod comes down and through
language divides.
God comes down and throughlanguage divides.
And so this is where we startseeing the division of people,
groups, ethnic groups, culturalgroups is here because of the
rebellion of humanity.
And this is an important point,because this is going to be the
first point of a bookend thatwe're going to see later in the
(15:55):
book of Acts, and we'll get tothat in a future podcast.
But we need to understand thatthis is most definitely because
of the rebellion of man.
But one of the things that Ilove to remind people is that
while they're arrogant, pridefuland rebellious, and so God
comes down, and through languagedivides, god doesn't give up.
So Genesis 11 is God's judgment.
(16:17):
But you just turn the page overto the next chapter.
In Genesis 12, god initiates aplan.
Now, he's already known thisplan before the foundations of
the earth, but he's now enactingit, particularly through a man
named Abram, who we later knowas Abraham.
And he says to him this is inGenesis 1, 12 and 1, go from
your country to your kindred, toyour father's house, to a land.
(16:46):
I will show you and listen towhat he says here in verse 2.
And I will make of you a greatnation, I will bless you and
make your name great.
So and I look at that and Irecognize one of the things that
is so amazing about this Again,genesis 11, god comes down
through language divides, turnthe page over and he says okay,
now, abram, I want to bless youwhat we know through the nation
of Israel.
But it's not just to blessIsrael, it's actually to bless
(17:08):
the nation, and one of thethings he says to Abram is I
will make your name great, whichis almost the exact word for
word phrase that the builders ofthe Tower of Babel said for
themselves.
They said let us make our namegreat.
God disciplines them injudgment.
Then God says to Abraham I'mgoing to make your name great.
It's not that making a namegreat is bad, it's who you're
trying to do it for.
(17:29):
I look at Genesis 11 and 12 asthis great challenge, but also
hope God doesn't give up onhumanity, even though he's now
dispersed them throughout thenations.
He has a plan to redeem thosepeople, starting first through
Abraham, but ultimately throughwhat we know as the Messiah, the
one that's coming to deliverand redeem even though we're
fallen.
Mrs. Erin Kay (17:48):
Oh, and as you're talking, I'm thinking about,
when it comes to this discussionof race and ethnicity and
culture, are we, in ourinteractions with other people
and interactions with our ownthoughts, even trying to make a
name for ourselves?
Are we trying to make our pointknown?
I?
Dr. Ben Mathew (18:03):
think that's going to be some of the stuff we
get into those applicationpoints in our later podcast,
because you're absolutely right,aaron, we have to recognize
that some of our motivations, ifwe're honest, stem out of that
Genesis 3, genesis 11 motivation.
Part of it is recognizing itand seeking how the gospel can
hopefully inform us in somebetter ways.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I even saw, as you'respeaking about.
You know, god came down andcreated that division through
language, which is reallydiversity being born, but then,
like you said, diversitydivision.
But then he also used that,that redemptive power.
He used it for unity in a waythat only the Lord can.
That's right, which is why wecan't leave him out of this
(18:43):
conversation.
Dr. Ben Mathew (18:44):
Absolutely, he doesn't give up.
If we were left with Genesis 11, it'd be pretty sad and I feel
sometimes we have not culturally, maybe even as a Christian
church community, kind of seenpast Genesis 11 because we get
so stuck in that mentality.
We're all divided.
Why even bother?
I want to give us some hope,because I think scripture gives
us some hope beyond chapter 11.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:08):
Absolutely Okay.
Well, this has been a veryinformative episode, giving us
those contexts.
I love when we can tie the OldTestament into today.
So, closing this up, what wouldyou say to a listener who is
just grappling with this idea,all these ideas that you shared
with us today?
How would you speak to them tohelp them center back in?
Dr. Ben Mathew (19:22):
You know, especially going off these first
two elements, I think.
First, recognizing creation.
You are made in the image of aGod who loves you.
That's your identity first andforemost, not your ethnicity,
not the color of your skin, notthe culture you're from or the
expressions of.
Those are all good andwonderful things.
We're going to get to that, butyour identity is not first your
culture, your ethnicity.
(19:43):
Your identity is informed bywhat God has done, making you
one in his image.
I think sometimes we need tokind of let that be the first
point.
And if your identity is seen inanything other than that, maybe
that needs to be a challengefor you to kind of recenter your
identity, whatever ethnicityyou may be.
And I appreciate how you saidit earlier, aaron.
I think when it comes to thefall, perhaps there are some
(20:03):
elements of the fall stillworking in our heart where we
kind of want to maintain thedivision because we want to make
a name for ourselves.
I do believe a lot of thediscussion in today's culture
about race and ethnicity ismotivated out of pride rather
than a desire to make a greatname for God.
I need to.
I need to be willing to askthose hard questions why am I
getting into this?
(20:24):
What am I trying to advocatefor?
Am I advocating for the nameand the greatness of God, or my
own name and my own greatness?
I think those are somequestions we need to really
wrestle with, so we can let thegospel inform us that much more.
Mrs. Erin Kay (20:36):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I will like in our firstepisode, there'll be a form
linked in the show notes whereyou can post any questions that
you have, any comments, anyconcerns.
Dr Mathew and I we will bedoing our final episode where
we're going to be taking thesequestions and comments and
putting them together so thaty'all can be involved in this
process.
So again, Dr.
(20:57):
Mathew, thank you for beinghere with us today.
And how should people get intouch with you if they would
like to speak with you?
Dr. Ben Mathew (21:02):
I'm a professor over at Columbia International
University, so my email isalways going to be the easiest
way to get ahold of me.
B-e-n dot M-A-T-H-E-W at C-I-Udot E-D-U.
Mrs. Erin Kay (21:14):
Awesome.
Thanks so much and we'll seeeverybody on the next episode.
Welcome to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
We are diving into the secondepisode of our series with Dr.
Ben Mathew from ColumbiaInternational University, and
this series is about the gospeland racial discussions here at
Ben Lippen School.
So if you missed the firstepisode, go back, have a listen
and then come back to this one.
(00:21):
It'll make a whole lot moresense with what we're talking
about.
So welcome, Dr.
Mathew, we're glad to have youhere.
Dr. Ben Mathew (00:25):
Great to be back again.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:26):
So in the last episode we talked a little bit
about our heart posture and nowthat we have established our
personal heart posture, we cannow step more fully or be more
present with developing thatbiblical theology of race and
what that looks like, examiningeverything through the lens of
scripture and what the Lord says.
So I turn that over to you.
(00:46):
This is definitely yourwheelhouse.
Dr. Ben Mathew (00:48):
Yeah, I so appreciate that we can start
that first episode on heartposture With the recognition
that may be continual work thatwe need to do.
As we get into these otherepisodes Other responses may
come up, other recognitions ofhow you're feeling about this,
and so feel free to go back tothe encouragements that we
discussed in that first episode.
(01:09):
It's not kind of a once anddone kind of thing, as much as
it is an ongoing, as we'reengaging with these ideas.
But the way that I always liketo kind of move forward with
this, because we do want to getand that's kind of getting to
some of our later episodes, wedo want to be very practical and
think about the applications ofthis, particularly within Ben
Lippen, within your family,within your community.
(01:29):
So we are kind of moving thebus down there.
But we can't have goodapplication unless we have good
theology.
Read almost any of the epistles.
You'll see that they almost allstart with significant and
robust theology that theninforms practical ways of living
.
I think that's always a goodmodel to have and so for me, in
(02:01):
this area of race, of ethnicity,of multicultural discussions,
before we get into all I can sayit that way to kind of organize
our ways of thinking throughthis issue of race and ethnicity
.
It's called biblical theologyand it's been helpful.
(02:24):
That, I think, really does agood job of trying to help you
understand essentially whatbiblical theology is is seeing a
story, and I think we can allappreciate a good story, whether
you've read a book or seen amovie or gone to a play.
We all know the basic elementsof a good story Once upon a time
and in the beginning they haveall the characters and the
setting and the development.
(02:44):
But then something difficulthappens, some problem enters
into this individual's life butthrough progress and effort,
with some bumps and bruisesalong the way, they're able to
somewhat overcome the situationthat's come on to them with the
hopes of resolution.
Or often what we say, they alllived happily ever after of
(03:06):
resolution.
Or often what we say, and theyall lived happily ever after.
That idea of what entails a goodstory really, in my opinion,
comes from the best story of all, namely the gospel.
The Bible starts with, not onceupon a time, but in the
beginning, god and Genesis 1 and2 set up the characters, the
setting, which then Genesis 3helps us understand the problem,
particularly of the fall, andwe see that in human throughout
(03:28):
generations.
But God doesn't give up on hisstory.
In fact, he enters into hisstory through the person and
work of Jesus Christ, a lifethat's perfect, that is
sacrificed on a Roman cross.
But three days later he'sresurrected and he's now in the
midst of doing this redemption,this reconciliation work that
we're in right now.
Here we are trying to be partof God's work because one day
(03:51):
the king is coming back.
Jesus will return and will makeall things right.
It's not just that they alllived happily ever after, it's
that the king returns and wins.
The main story, just to be clear, the main story of the Bible is
not racial reconciliation.
We need to start there becauseI think sometimes we make the
issue of race maybe too much andwe try to push it into
(04:13):
scripture in ways that it's not.
It's what theologians calledeisegesis, reading into the text
rather than allowing the textto speak to us, pulling out of
exegetical work.
The main story of the Bible isnot about race.
And yet, as DA Carson, anothertheologian up at Trinity
Evangelical School, says, we cantrace other stories under the
(04:34):
bigger story.
The big story is the redemptionof mankind through the sacrifice
of Jesus Christ.
That's the big story, what somecall the meta-narrative
over-story but there are otherlittle stories that connect with
that, using that samescaffolding creation, fall,
frost, redemption, glory.
So for our next couple ofpodcast episodes, I want to use
(04:55):
those five particular areas togive us some scaffolding
framework and help us understandthat, while race is not the
main story of the gospel, it isactually part of a story of the
gospel.
It's one aspect that isintended to not just bless
humanity but ultimately to giveglory to God, and so that's kind
(05:16):
of the framework if that kindof makes sense of what I'm
hoping to get into with oursessions here.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:21):
Yeah, that does make sense.
It's something that we shouldfocus on and examine, but it
shouldn't be all that we focuson and examine as humans and or
as Christians and sometimes itcan become all consuming because
we have so many differentvoices and narratives and
changing scripts happeningaround us.
It can, it can be a distractionat times, all right.
(05:41):
So something else that I thinkthat is important to do here is
just to do some quickdefinitions of race, ethnicity
and culture, and what are thedifferences between those three
things?
Dr. Ben Mathew (05:53):
Great question.
Yeah, this is one thatsometimes it's difficult to make
those definitions, because ifyou look up 20 books you'll get
20 different answers on whatthat means.
I think kind of a shortenedversion that I often go by is
the recognition that race issomewhat of a bit of a made up
concept.
I mean, there's there's a longhistory as to how the idea of
(06:13):
race whether it be white orblack or or Asian or whatever
that unfortunately has a prettydark history to it, and so the
term race technically doesn'thave any like biological or
really any kind of physiologicalreality to it.
It's a made up term that wasused in a lot of ways to really
(06:35):
hurt people, and so I often saythat race is not real but racism
is very real, and so thedifference that I think about
when it comes to that, I thinkwhat we're we are talking about
is ethnicity.
Ethnicity are some of thosecultural distinctions.
For instance, I'm from anIndian background.
My parents were born and raisedin India, but they came to
Canada, so I was born and raisedin Canada and so, as you kind
(06:57):
of said in my bio, I was able tokind of understand the
differences, what somesociologists called code
switching.
When I was with my Indianfamily, my cousins, we would eat
and dress and talk and respondto certain realities that were
common to our ethnic constructthere.
But when I was at school or achurch which was predominantly
(07:17):
in a white Canadian context,there were different ways and so
understandably if I can giveyou one example with my Indian
family, we didn't talk a lotabout ice hockey.
Somewhat understandably, it'snot part of their culture.
A lot of players on Team Indiafor hockey, surprisingly but
when I was with my Canadianfriends that was always part of
the conversation.
And so I think ethnicity is amuch more helpful term in that
we're trying to engage with thecultural differences that are
(07:40):
found within people groups, whatthe New Testament often refers
to as ethnos that you'll see,this idea of nations or
different people groups.
Sometimes race is used for that.
It's kind of used as asynonymous term.
We don't have enough time inthis episode to get into the
history of it, but that's why weeven use it in this, because
it's kind of a shorthand forwhat I think a lot of times
we're talking about when itcomes to ethnicity and culture
(08:02):
in some of those ways.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:03):
That ties back so well to the point that you made
in the first episode when youwere talking about Paul and him
kind of becoming but doing itresponsibly.
Dr. Ben Mathew (08:13):
Yeah, that his ethnic, cultural realities and
that's what I like about it isthat he doesn't ignore them
they're still light enough tohim that he can adjust as needed
.
Jewish context I'll be veryJewish.
Greek context I'll be veryGreek, and so ethnicity was
something and I think that'spart of what we want to get into
that even starts from thisfirst issue of creation, right?
So that's kind of the firstpart of this biblical theology
(08:35):
is that in the beginning, whenGod creates, particularly when
he comes to the creation ofmankind, there's this great
theological concept of beingmade in the image of God.
You want to impress yourfriends at lunch day?
Use the Imago Dei, get back tosome ancient, and I think it's a
concept most of us, asChristians, are familiar with.
There's a lot to unpack withthis.
There's ideas of relationship.
(08:56):
That's part of the Imago Deibeing made in the image of a God
who is a community himself.
Let us make man in our image.
I think there's ideas ofreflection, of who we get to
reflect to the world.
I think there's aspects ofreigning and kind of for lack of
a better way of sayingco-management that God instills
in us as stewardship.
He doesn't need our help, buthe wants to work with us, Like
(09:19):
he wants to partner and co-laborwith us.
I think that's all built intothe Imago Dei as well.
But one of the aspects I thinkthat is also important is this
idea of worth is intrinsic valueof humans that is unlike
anything else in creation.
And so this notion of who weare, that when the Lord formed
(09:40):
the man, this idea, as he saysin Genesis 1, let us make kind
in our image, after our likeness.
So he created them in the imageof God.
He created them male and female.
The example I often think aboutthe house I used to live at with
my wife and my kids.
There was a school at the endof the street where it was a
grade school, so lots of littlekids, and I remember one day
(10:01):
dropping my kids off and they'rekind of in the middle of the
road.
Was this squirrel that I wantto be careful how I say this had
had had its last nut, if I cansay it that way?
It did not win the battleagainst whatever cars was
crashing going through there,and so it was kind of.
One of my kids noticed I saidDad, look at the dead squirrel.
And sure enough, it actuallyled to a great conversation and
(10:22):
I said why do you think it'sinteresting that all of us are
just driving past this deadsquirrel in the road?
And one of my kids said well,because it's just a squirrel.
I said I think that's the rightanswer.
It's like we're not looking tohit the squirrel.
That'd be another whole issue.
But there's a dead squirrel inthe which.
I asked them the next question.
I said but what if it was oneof your friends that are going
(10:43):
to school?
They were crossing the streetand one of your friends got hit
by a car.
What do you think we should dothen?
Oh, Dada, we should stop.
We should stop and help thatlittle kid.
I said but why, If you're notstopping for the squirrel, why
stop for your friend?
To which my kid.
You know, the greatest truthscomes out of the smallest minds
and hearts.
But they said because God lovesthem.
I just remember that responseof hearing them say they
(11:05):
understood, even at that youngage.
The difference between ananimal and a human is because of
how God sees them.
It's not that God doesn't careabout that squirrel.
He cares even for the birds ofthe air, the foxes, and he cares
about creation.
But there's a unique andintrinsic value that he puts on
humans that I think needs tostart our conversation.
(11:26):
It's not first about race, it'sactually first about being
loved by a God who cares for us.
That, to me, centers my mindand heart on how we need to
start this conversation.
Cs Lewis has a great quote wherehe talks about this idea that
there are no ordinary people.
You have never talked to a meremortal.
Next to the blessed sacramentitself, your neighbor is the
(11:48):
holiest object presented to yoursenses.
Wow, Isn't that just great?
Yeah, and what if we startthere?
What if we, instead of saying,OK, that person's black, that
person's white, that person'sAsian, Again, we're going to get
to some of those, but what ifwe start with?
That person is a holyindividual made in the image of
God that God loves.
And if that can be our startingpoint, I think that really
(12:11):
helps us engage with so many ofthe other discussions we need to
have as well.
Mrs. Erin Kay (12:15):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And in the creation story yousee, god made this and it was
good and he made this and it wasgood.
But then when he got to man, itwas very good because we're set
above.
Dr. Ben Mathew (12:24):
Yeah, our identity is from God.
This whole idea, this purposeis from God.
Our value and, to be honest,the discussion of race and
ethnicity is actually not in thebeginning, largely because
there's just two people there.
There is no discussion ofdiversity when you only got two
humans to start the story,Because I think God wants to not
start with diversity.
He wants to start with unity ofwho we are made in his image,
(12:50):
our identity, our value, ourpurpose.
Now we're going to get to someof the other stuff, but we need
to start at the beginning who weare made in the image of God,
Absolutely.
Mrs. Erin Kay (12:54):
So the fall you have creation and then we have
very, you know, Genesis goesright quickly into the fall.
Dr. Ben Mathew (13:00):
And it does, and that's part of the ways I try
to think about this.
We can't start at the fall.
We need to understand where wecame from.
That informs the fall Meaning.
We can't know what the fall isunless we've understood where
we've fallen from.
We started in relationship withGod, being made in value and
worth.
Genesis 3, we know the storyhow Satan comes in and, through
(13:20):
temptation, adam and Eve rebel.
They want to essentially do ittheir own way, in rebellion to
God, and that causes us, causesthem, to be separated and causes
us as humanity to be brokenfrom loving relationship.
I try to fast forward a little.
Genesis 3 most definitely isthe fall of humanity, but I use
(13:44):
another passage in Genesis 11 toinform a little bit as it
relates to this discussion ofracial reconciliation, because
of some of the things that we'regoing to get into some future
podcasts.
Genesis 11, some of you knowit's a well-known story of the
Tower of Babel.
This desire, as it says inGenesis 11, 4, come, let us
build ourselves a city and atower with its top to the
heavens.
Let us this is the Hemanspeaking Let us make a name for
ourselves, lest we be dispersedover the face of the whole earth
(14:06):
.
So we've got to do a littlecontext.
This is coming after the floodNoah and his family on the ark.
The waters have started torecede, the flood has been put
away, ark has now been opened,noah and his family is given
this commandment to be fruitfuland multiply and to disperse
amongst the earth.
It's kind of like a redoing ofthe garden, but instead of going
out, the descendants of Noahstay together, and when they
(14:28):
stay together, they come up withthis plan let's go do this
thing, let's make it up to God.
But again, it's not so they canbe in relationship with the God
.
As the text says, let's make aname for ourselves.
If there's one thing that thefall has done to humanity, it
has made us the center of thestory.
Let us make a name forourselves, and we've been
struggling with that since dayone.
(14:49):
And so I look at that desire,the evil desire of humans to
build a tower to reach God.
And then you see the responseof God accordingly Genesis 11,
verses 7 and 8.
And then the Lord said come,let us go down.
So again you see the parallelHumans want to go up.
God says I'm coming down andconfused their language so that
(15:11):
they may not understand oneanother's speech.
So the Lord dispersed them fromthere over the face of the
earth, and this is what a lot oftheologians recognize as kind
of the beginning of the nations,the table of nations as we kind
of refer to it.
This idea that when man in hisrebellion wants to move to God,
to make a name for himself, godin judgment and here's the ways
(15:33):
I often try to think about itGod comes down and through
language divides.
God comes down and throughlanguage divides.
And so this is where we startseeing the division of people,
groups, ethnic groups, culturalgroups is here because of the
rebellion of humanity.
And this is an important point,because this is going to be the
first point of a bookend thatwe're going to see later in the
(15:55):
book of Acts, and we'll get tothat in a future podcast.
But we need to understand thatthis is most definitely because
of the rebellion of man.
But one of the things that Ilove to remind people is that
while they're arrogant, pridefuland rebellious, and so God
comes down, and through languagedivides, god doesn't give up.
So Genesis 11 is God's judgment.
(16:17):
But you just turn the page overto the next chapter.
In Genesis 12, god initiates aplan.
Now, he's already known thisplan before the foundations of
the earth, but he's now enactingit, particularly through a man
named Abram, who we later knowas Abraham.
And he says to him this is inGenesis 1, 12 and 1, go from
your country to your kindred, toyour father's house, to a land.
(16:46):
I will show you and listen towhat he says here in verse 2.
And I will make of you a greatnation, I will bless you and
make your name great.
So and I look at that and Irecognize one of the things that
is so amazing about this Again,genesis 11, god comes down
through language divides, turnthe page over and he says okay,
now, abram, I want to bless youwhat we know through the nation
of Israel.
But it's not just to blessIsrael, it's actually to bless
(17:08):
the nation, and one of thethings he says to Abram is I
will make your name great, whichis almost the exact word for
word phrase that the builders ofthe Tower of Babel said for
themselves.
They said let us make our namegreat.
God disciplines them injudgment.
Then God says to Abraham I'mgoing to make your name great.
It's not that making a namegreat is bad, it's who you're
trying to do it for.
(17:29):
I look at Genesis 11 and 12 asthis great challenge, but also
hope God doesn't give up onhumanity, even though he's now
dispersed them throughout thenations.
He has a plan to redeem thosepeople, starting first through
Abraham, but ultimately throughwhat we know as the Messiah, the
one that's coming to deliverand redeem even though we're
fallen.
Mrs. Erin Kay (17:48):
Oh, and as you're talking, I'm thinking about,
when it comes to this discussionof race and ethnicity and
culture, are we, in ourinteractions with other people
and interactions with our ownthoughts, even trying to make a
name for ourselves?
Are we trying to make our pointknown?
I?
Dr. Ben Mathew (18:03):
think that's going to be some of the stuff we
get into those applicationpoints in our later podcast,
because you're absolutely right,aaron, we have to recognize
that some of our motivations, ifwe're honest, stem out of that
Genesis 3, genesis 11 motivation.
Part of it is recognizing itand seeking how the gospel can
hopefully inform us in somebetter ways.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then I even saw, as you'respeaking about.
You know, god came down andcreated that division through
language, which is reallydiversity being born, but then,
like you said, diversitydivision.
But then he also used that,that redemptive power.
He used it for unity in a waythat only the Lord can.
That's right, which is why wecan't leave him out of this
(18:43):
conversation.
Dr. Ben Mathew (18:44):
Absolutely, he doesn't give up.
If we were left with Genesis 11, it'd be pretty sad and I feel
sometimes we have not culturally, maybe even as a Christian
church community, kind of seenpast Genesis 11 because we get
so stuck in that mentality.
We're all divided.
Why even bother?
I want to give us some hope,because I think scripture gives
us some hope beyond chapter 11.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:08):
Absolutely Okay.
Well, this has been a veryinformative episode, giving us
those contexts.
I love when we can tie the OldTestament into today.
So, closing this up, what wouldyou say to a listener who is
just grappling with this idea,all these ideas that you shared
with us today?
How would you speak to them tohelp them center back in?
Dr. Ben Mathew (19:22):
You know, especially going off these first
two elements, I think.
First, recognizing creation.
You are made in the image of aGod who loves you.
That's your identity first andforemost, not your ethnicity,
not the color of your skin, notthe culture you're from or the
expressions of.
Those are all good andwonderful things.
We're going to get to that, butyour identity is not first your
culture, your ethnicity.
(19:43):
Your identity is informed bywhat God has done, making you
one in his image.
I think sometimes we need tokind of let that be the first
point.
And if your identity is seen inanything other than that, maybe
that needs to be a challengefor you to kind of recenter your
identity, whatever ethnicityyou may be.
And I appreciate how you saidit earlier, aaron.
I think when it comes to thefall, perhaps there are some
(20:03):
elements of the fall stillworking in our heart where we
kind of want to maintain thedivision because we want to make
a name for ourselves.
I do believe a lot of thediscussion in today's culture
about race and ethnicity ismotivated out of pride rather
than a desire to make a greatname for God.
I need to.
I need to be willing to askthose hard questions why am I
getting into this?
(20:24):
What am I trying to advocatefor?
Am I advocating for the nameand the greatness of God, or my
own name and my own greatness?
I think those are somequestions we need to really
wrestle with, so we can let thegospel inform us that much more.
Mrs. Erin Kay (20:36):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I will like in our firstepisode, there'll be a form
linked in the show notes whereyou can post any questions that
you have, any comments, anyconcerns.
Dr Mathew and I we will bedoing our final episode where
we're going to be taking thesequestions and comments and
putting them together so thaty'all can be involved in this
process.
So again, Dr.
(20:57):
Mathew, thank you for beinghere with us today.
And how should people get intouch with you if they would
like to speak with you?
Dr. Ben Mathew (21:02):
I'm a professor over at Columbia International
University, so my email isalways going to be the easiest
way to get ahold of me.
B-e-n dot M-A-T-H-E-W at C-I-Udot E-D-U.
Mrs. Erin Kay (21:14):
Awesome.
Thanks so much and we'll seeeverybody on the next episode.
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