February 20, 2025 • 19 mins
Discover how the cross shapes our understanding of race and reconciliation with Dr. Ben Mathew on the Ben Lippen Podcast. Join us as we explore the profound themes of creation, fall, cross, redemption, and glory, focusing on the central role of the cross in God's grand narrative. Dr. Mathew offers fresh insights from Revelation 5, illuminating the powerful image of a multi-ethnic community united through Jesus' sacrifice. This episode promises to challenge and enrich your views on how the gospel informs racial discussions, reminding us that the ultimate story is about God's glory and our joy.
Through a thoughtful conversation, we examine how God's narrative is one of redemption and reconciliation, emphasizing that while the Bible's metanarrative centers on the gospel, it also informs essential narratives like racial reconciliation. Dr. Mathew, with his extensive knowledge, helps us uncover the significance of Jesus' blood in ransoming people from every tribe, language, people, and nation. Don't miss this chance to reflect on these profound themes and grow with us on this enlightening journey.
Click here to submit your questions and feedback for Dr. Mathew
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to another episode of the Ben Lippin
Podcast, and we are continuingour series with Dr Ben Matthew
about the gospel and racialdiscussions here at Ben Lippin
School.
If you haven't caught the firsttwo episodes, I encourage you
to go back, listen to those andthen pop over to listen to this
one, and this one will make awhole lot more sense if you have
the context of the first two.
(00:22):
But if you don't have time todo that, that's okay.
We'd love for you just tolisten and see what the Lord has
to offer you through thisepisode.
So welcome, dr Matthew.
We're so thankful that you'rehere today and we're excited to
dive into part two of thisdeveloping a biblical theology
of race.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Absolutely.
This has been a good journey.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, it absolutely has.
And you know I was telling DrMatthew when we weren't
recording that this is good formy heart to just to continue to
examine things and grow.
You know we never want to stopgrowing and learning.
All right, so we coveredcreation in the fall in the last
episode, which that then takesus to, which part, the cross.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, as we're now, the five kind of points of this
narrative creation, fall, cross,redemption and glory.
God starts this wonderful thing, but man and our rebellion
breaks it.
But God doesn't give up on hisstory, he doesn't give up on his
creation, and so the OldTestament is a continued
narrative of man's attempts butfailures, to reach God, to make
(01:17):
reconciliation, and so, insteadof us trying to make it up to
God, God decides to come down tohumans.
This is appropriate because, aswe're recording this, we're
getting ready for the Christmasseason and, as one of my
professors said, ourneighborhood is singing our
songs because we, as Christians,appreciate this time, I think,
more than anyone else, as weshould that God became man and
(01:40):
the reason he became man was tolive a life of perfect obedience
and ultimately, to go to thecross to die for our sins.
And so, as I said in one of theearlier podcasts, we need to
remember that the main story ofthe Bible is not racial
reconciliation.
The main story, themetanarrative, is the gospel of
God coming to redeem mankindback to himself for God's glory
(02:03):
and for our joy.
That's the big story and thereason why Jesus died on the
cross, but under that we canhave these little stories, these
other narratives that areinformed by the big story, how
the gospel informs, and when wecome to this issue of the cross.
One way that we kind of see thisis actually not in the gospels
itself, but actually in apassage in Revelation 5.
Revelation 5 is John on theisland of Patmos having these
(02:26):
visions and these incrediblerevelation of God regarding the
things that were and the thingsthat are to come.
And one of the visions he seesis this recognition of who Jesus
is.
As it's even said there, he'sthe lion and the lamb.
And so in this passage inRevelation, chapter 5, after
there's much weeping because noone can open the seals, and
(02:47):
finally they look and it's thisgreat passage Someone says to
him there's the lion, the tribeof Judah has come.
And then he looks and he sees alamb.
And it's not it's not intendedto be a bait and switch kind of
idea it's the lion, is the lamb.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
He's both.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
But then it goes on to say because of who he is.
In verse nine of Revelationfive, worthy are you to take the
scroll and to open its seals?
For you were slain, and by yourblood.
So just to be clear, they'redeclaring the worthiness of
Jesus because of his sacrificeof blood on the cross.
So this passage is actuallyabout the cross.
(03:21):
It's what Jesus did.
When it says and by your blood,that's a direct reference to
the cross.
But according to this passage,look what his blood accomplishes
by your blood you ransomedpeople for God from every tribe,
in language and people andnation.
What I find fascinating aboutwhat John does here through the
Holy Spirit, he doesn't just sayand you ransomed people from
(03:43):
God, from everywhere.
He goes out of his way to useterms, very specific terms tribe
, language, people and nation,to highlight that the redemption
of God, the ransoming of peoplefor God through the blood of
Jesus Christ on the cross, isintended to find a multi-ethnic
community.
This is part of the reason Oneway that I said it to a
(04:03):
colleague of mine is that notthe main reason, but one of the
reasons.
One way that I said it to acolleague of mine is that not
the main reason, but one of thereasons.
One of the reasons Jesus diedon the cross was to redeem and
ransom to himself a multi-ethniccommunity.
I don't see any other way ofinterpreting this verse than
through that lens.
It's not the main reason, it'snot the only reason Jesus died,
but if any of you know ideas ofwhat we refer to as the
(04:24):
atonement, the reasons why Jesusdied, we appreciate.
I think the main theory of theatonement is that he died for
our sins.
But other things wereaccomplished at the cross.
Namely, he died for our sins sothat he to have a multi-ethnic
(04:46):
community in heaven in glory.
That gives a greateropportunity to give glory back
to the lion and to the lamb.
So I think we need toappreciate again that the cross
is doing something.
The work of the atonement isconnected.
It's not the only reason, butit's part of the reason Jesus
died, which puts thisconversation on a much higher
plane.
This is not just like, if weget time to talk about
(05:08):
reconciliation, great.
No, this is to the very heartof the gospel and if we miss it,
it's to our incredible lossthat we don't see the full
beauty.
It's kind of like a diamond.
It has many facets.
Turn it, it sparkles.
This is one of the facets ofthe gospel that I think we need
to find and find the joy andbeauty in it?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, and it's interesting because when you
read that scripture fromRevelation, it ties right back
to what you mentioned in episodetwo about Genesis and Genesis
11 and what happened there,because that's when the
diversity in the nation startedto be, and so he's coming back
to reconcile that.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
That's a great way of saying it, aaron, what he
started in Abraham.
Abraham, I want to work withyou and your nation to bless the
nations.
But we see failure afterfailure after failure in the Old
Testament.
And so what does God do?
He comes down and he's going tobe, but the only way he can
reach the nations is by dyingfor them.
I think too often we get soworked up in the political
(06:05):
discourse of this discussion itblinds us to the gospel
orientation of this discussion.
Jesus died for a multi-ethniccommunity.
Put aside whatever other biasesor political notions you may
have.
Let the gospel first speak toit.
This is why we celebrateChristmas.
Part of the joy of saying MerryChristmas is that Jesus became
a man to fulfill the reality ofRevelation 5.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I'm getting emotional as you're talking about this,
because I mean, we see, here atBen Lippin we have an
international program withstudents literally from all over
the world, and even with ourday program we have students
from different parts of theworld or different cities, and
it's overwhelming to me to thinkabout that.
So in our discussion so far wecovered God and the fall and the
(06:50):
cross, but we are missing a keycomponent that kind of makes it
all happen for us.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's exactly right, because what Jesus accomplishes
on the cross, he now gives us,the church, the opportunity to
live out, which I find soamazing.
It's kind of like when Godstarted with Adam and Eve.
He doesn't need them to do hiswork, but he wants to labor with
them because we're made in hisimage.
I think we see a repeat of thatwith the beginning of the
church.
Jesus accomplishes the work,but he wants to partner with us
(07:15):
to realize the work.
He doesn't need our help, buthe wants to partner with us.
And so I looked up a passage inActs, chapter two.
It's what theologians oftenrefer to as the beginning of the
church, church with a big Cright Church.
That's been going on for about2000 years in all kinds of
contexts and cultures andcommunities.
The church is the bride ofChrist.
It's the means by which he nowwill reach the nation.
(07:39):
The work is done, but the workis now to be affected through
the church.
And what I love about Actschapter two, if you read through
this passage, it talks abouthow there suddenly came from
heaven a sound like a mightyrushing wind.
It filled the entire housewhere they were sitting and the
divided tongues, as a fireappeared to them, rested on each
one of them and they were allfilled with the Holy Spirit and
began to speak in other tonguesas the Spirit gave them
(08:02):
utterance.
What's so amazing about this?
I don't have time to readthrough, but if you read Acts,
chapter 2, verses 5 to 11, thephysician, dr Luke, goes through
and names all of the differentplaces they're from.
It's almost like you kind ofappreciate physicians being
detailed in their work.
This is what he does when he'swriting this account of the Acts
of the Apostles and he talksabout from Parthenians and Medes
(08:23):
and Judea and Cappadocia.
And he goes through this longlist and part of me is like Luke
, why not just say from all overthe place?
And I think what he's doing ishe's going out of his way,
through the inspiration of theHoly Spirit, to highlight these
are people from all over thenations the same nations that
were dispersed all the way backin Genesis 11, are now gathered
together and look what happens.
Remember Genesis 11, as Aaronsaid before, if you missed that
(08:44):
podcast, go listen to it.
But in Genesis 11, god comesdown and through language
divides.
But look now here at Acts 2.
God, through the Holy Spirit,comes down and through language
unites.
You're supposed to see thosebookends from Genesis 11 and
Acts 2.
Genesis 11 is because of therebellion of man and the
judgment of God to divide themthrough language.
(09:05):
But Acts 2 is because of thefinished work of Christ on the
cross, which now enables peoplefrom all of these different
nations to come together.
As it says there, we hear themtelling in our own tongues
Before they couldn't understandeach other and they were divided
.
Now they understand each other,but what do they understand?
We hear them telling in our owntongues the mighty works of God
(09:27):
.
The whole point is that now andyou read the rest of Acts and
you see that what starts inJerusalem, this ragtag group of
people, are now being sent,sometimes by their own decisions
, sometimes through persecution,but there is no doubt that the
gospel starts spreading to allof these people outside of the
Jewish nation.
Sometimes people struggle withthat.
(09:52):
Look at what Peter goes through.
Look at the council atJerusalem, Look at all the
discussions.
Can people who are not Jew comeinto relationship with God?
And the answer is yes, Becauseof what Christ accomplished.
The church has now has theopportunity to be a witness to
the mighty works of God.
But I love those bookends.
Genesis 11, god comes down andthrough language divides.
Acts 2, god comes down andthrough language unites.
(10:13):
We can't miss that.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
No, it's beautiful and it's, you know, even
applying that to ourselves withthe language that we use, can be
used, like Genesis, to divide,or it can be like we see here in
Acts, to unify.
So we can use that parallel.
As you're talking to him,thinking, you know you're naming
all the nations and it's thislong list, and what came to mind
is he called the nations byname.
(10:36):
And we all don't, we all desireto be called by name and to be
recognized and to be seen, andwe even see that.
You know by name.
I have called you, you are mine, or you know we were knit in
our mother's womb, and we evensee that.
You know by name.
I have called you, you are mine, or you know we were knit in
our mother's womb, and so that'san example of that too.
You know he calls the nationsby name because he cares and
loves all of them and Luke, Ilove how he defines that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
He goes out of his way to highlight that.
We see a story later of Philipwith an Ethiopian eunuch and
again, this guy's already gottwo strikes against him.
He's an Ethiopian and he's aeunuch According to Old
Testament law.
Both those things disqualifyhim from coming into the
assembly of God.
And yet, because of thefinished work of Christ on the
cross and what is initiated inthe church, this Ethiopian
(11:18):
eunuch who's reading a scrollfrom the book of Isaiah is like
is this someone I can know?
Is this a reality for me?
Ethiopian eunuch, which Philipsays yeah, that is unheard of In
the thousands of years of theJewish faith that someone who is
so far outside can be broughtin.
Why?
Because what God started inGenesis 1, making humanity in
(11:39):
his image is now what he'sredeeming to himself, but still
engaging with the realities ofwho they are.
I just think that's such abeautiful reality.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, god doesn't change, he is who he is.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
He is Exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Okay, so what are the realities and the culmination
of these when it comes to racialdiscussions?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And I love the word that you use there, erin the
culmination.
That's exactly what this is.
It's the resolution that Godhas, because we're in this
moment of reconciliation, ofredemption.
But we need to be honest, it'sstill hard, it's still difficult
, we're still working, sometimesnot always working well, and so
the hope that we have, thereason why saints throughout
history have said Maranatha toeach other is because we look
(12:20):
forward to the day of Jesus'sreturn, the King coming back to
put right all that is wrong.
And there's a passage inRevelation 7, we're going back
to the book of Revelation whereagain John sees a vision.
He doesn't discuss just thethings that were like Revelation
5, but he also talks about thethings that are to come.
And when John is given a visionof what is to come Revelation
7,.
After this I looked and beholda great multitude that no one
(12:41):
could number and again look athis detail from every nation and
tribe and people and language.
The same distinctions that weremade in Revelation 5 regarding
the death of Jesus secures thosepeople.
John now looks into the futureand he sees those same people
standing before the throne andbefore the lamb, clothed in
white robes, with palm branchesin their hands and crying out
with a loud voice Salvationbelongs to our God, who sits on
(13:04):
the throne, and to the lamb.
What I love about this again,john doesn't just say I saw a
whole bunch of people.
He goes out of his ways todescribe a multi-ethnic, diverse
community, and I think thereason is is because even in
their diversity there'ssignificant unity, but it's
actually their diversity thatinforms their unity.
(13:26):
So the fact that they're inwhite robes, I think, is key,
because they're now clothed withthe righteousness of Christ,
but they don't how can I saythis best?
They don't lose their ethnicreality.
I look at a passage like thisand I have to understand.
Let me say this very clearlyyou can't see me in the podcast,
but my family is originallyfrom India and so my complexion
is brown, very, very dark skin,comparatively to Erin, who I can
(13:50):
assume you're from more of aEuropean background.
Correct, yes, and so you wouldidentify, I assume, as white.
Yes, based on this verse, I'mgoing to go out on a bit of a
limb, but I don't think too farof a limb.
When we get to glory, we willmaintain our ethnic realities,
(14:11):
according to this passage, whenthere's people from every tribe
and tongue and nation andlanguage.
I think if I'm born a brown manin this life, I'm going to
persist to be a brown man inglory.
If you're born a white woman inthis life, you're going to
persist as a white woman inglory.
But here's the reason why Godwants to persist our differences
, because the differencesactually add to the fact that
only Jesus can bring us together, only the great conductor.
(14:32):
If you've ever been to asymphony, you know when you
listen to the brass section, ohthey're awesome.
And you listen to the woodwinds, oh they're incredible.
And you hear the strings andyou're like, oh, that's amazing.
But it's only when thediversity of the symphony comes
together under the instructionof the great conductor that you
fully love and enjoy the beautyof the song.
(14:52):
What if we look at glory in thatsame way that when we all get
to heaven?
My wife is also of Europeandescent and she's very white and
I'm very brown.
God will not bring us to heavenone day and take out his
universal, remote and colorcorrect us all to beige right?
Yeah, he's not going to darkenher up and he's not going to
lighten me up, because thedifferences we have here in life
(15:14):
are intended to be a reflectionof the glory of God.
He wants the diversity, but notjust for diversity's sake, and
I think that's where we kind ofgo wrong in our culture.
We want diversity for ourselves.
God wants diversity for hisglory.
What if we got a vision of that?
And what if, kind of like theLord's Prayer our Father, which
art in heaven, give us this dayor day?
Thy kingdom come, thy will bedone, and earth as it is in
(15:36):
heaven.
What if we have a vision forwhat God's going to do in the
glory?
To come and work for thatreality now.
I to come and work for thatreality now.
I think that's what our hope inChrist is all about is that we
have a vision of what he's goingto do and we can have hope to
live that reality out.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Difficult to be sure but possible because of the
finished work of Christ that wetalked about on the cross.
It's so true.
I love everything that we havetalked about and that we're just
continuing to build on this andour prayer.
Dr Matthew and I, we've beenpraying about this podcast for a
while, but our prayer is thatthe Lord is just working within
you through listening to thisand that he is showing you his
truth and where he wants you tomove and grow.
So I'm going to close thisepisode up like we have the
(16:15):
other two.
What would you say to theperson who's listening to this
and like, wow, this is justgreat, but I don't really know
what to do with the information.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Those three points that we kind of covered today in
this episode cross, redemptionand glory.
Have you first to quote someold great hymns have you come to
the cross?
And I don't mean for salvation,but the cross informs my
continued sanctification.
I can get caught up in all thedebates and politics of this
topic and just get so polarized,but when I come to the cross it
(16:42):
just humbles me.
It just it puts me in rightperspective to him, One of the
reasons Jesus died was to redeema multi-ethnic community for
his glory.
Am I willing to embrace thatcross?
That's hard.
When Jesus says, take up yourcross, that's a hard thing to do
but it actually leads tosomething so much better.
But can we start there with thehopes then, of that cross truth
(17:04):
informing our redemption work?
And so to me again, part of itis am I willing to engage with
others, kind of like whathappened in Acts 2.
Am I willing to actually sitdown and have a cup of coffee
with someone who's not from mycommunity and start talking
about some of this stuff?
Hey, did you hear that podcastthat Ben Lippin's putting out?
I'd love to get your thoughts.
What do you think, what do youlike, what do you not like, but
do it with someone that youwould never think you would do.
(17:26):
Because I think that's whatthey felt like at Pentecost what
is that guy doing there?
Why is she here?
But then they saw the mightyworks of God and said, oh, look
what God is doing.
If we can start having thoseconversations just little bit,
maybe just reaching out tosomebody outside of your
comfortable community and havingsome coffee, I think that'd be
a good thing.
To then celebrate that we'renot just stuck here.
(17:47):
There's a future hope.
How can you think about?
I always tell my kids atChristmas time Christmas leads
to Easter, easter leads to theKing.
How can this time help us thinkabout what God is going to do
in the future?
How can we be part of asymphony that actually brings
greater glory to the conductor?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Thank you so much for that.
Okay, so, like we said in theother episodes, we have a form
linked in the show notes.
If you have any questions,comments concerns that you would
like to share with me or DrMatthew, please fill out that
form.
We want you to fill out thatform.
We want to know your thoughtsand have your questions, because
we're going to be doing a finalwrap-up episode where we're
taking all of your questions,comments concerns and discussing
(18:24):
them because we want you tohave a voice in this discussion
as well.
So, before we hit stop, how canpeople get in touch with you if
they want to?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, I always appreciate communication with
others to the degree I canactually have a cup of coffee.
That's always good.
But you can always reach methrough an email benmathew at
ciuedu.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Wonderful.
All right, guys, we'll see youon our.
Welcome to another episode of the Ben Lippin
Podcast, and we are continuingour series with Dr Ben Matthew
about the gospel and racialdiscussions here at Ben Lippin
School.
If you haven't caught the firsttwo episodes, I encourage you
to go back, listen to those andthen pop over to listen to this
one, and this one will make awhole lot more sense if you have
the context of the first two.
(00:22):
But if you don't have time todo that, that's okay.
We'd love for you just tolisten and see what the Lord has
to offer you through thisepisode.
So welcome, dr Matthew.
We're so thankful that you'rehere today and we're excited to
dive into part two of thisdeveloping a biblical theology
of race.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Absolutely.
This has been a good journey.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, it absolutely has.
And you know I was telling DrMatthew when we weren't
recording that this is good formy heart to just to continue to
examine things and grow.
You know we never want to stopgrowing and learning.
All right, so we coveredcreation in the fall in the last
episode, which that then takesus to, which part, the cross.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, as we're now, the five kind of points of this
narrative creation, fall, cross,redemption and glory.
God starts this wonderful thing, but man and our rebellion
breaks it.
But God doesn't give up on hisstory, he doesn't give up on his
creation, and so the OldTestament is a continued
narrative of man's attempts butfailures, to reach God, to make
(01:17):
reconciliation, and so, insteadof us trying to make it up to
God, God decides to come down tohumans.
This is appropriate because, aswe're recording this, we're
getting ready for the Christmasseason and, as one of my
professors said, ourneighborhood is singing our
songs because we, as Christians,appreciate this time, I think,
more than anyone else, as weshould that God became man and
(01:40):
the reason he became man was tolive a life of perfect obedience
and ultimately, to go to thecross to die for our sins.
And so, as I said in one of theearlier podcasts, we need to
remember that the main story ofthe Bible is not racial
reconciliation.
The main story, themetanarrative, is the gospel of
God coming to redeem mankindback to himself for God's glory
(02:03):
and for our joy.
That's the big story and thereason why Jesus died on the
cross, but under that we canhave these little stories, these
other narratives that areinformed by the big story, how
the gospel informs, and when wecome to this issue of the cross.
One way that we kind of see thisis actually not in the gospels
itself, but actually in apassage in Revelation 5.
Revelation 5 is John on theisland of Patmos having these
(02:26):
visions and these incrediblerevelation of God regarding the
things that were and the thingsthat are to come.
And one of the visions he seesis this recognition of who Jesus
is.
As it's even said there, he'sthe lion and the lamb.
And so in this passage inRevelation, chapter 5, after
there's much weeping because noone can open the seals, and
(02:47):
finally they look and it's thisgreat passage Someone says to
him there's the lion, the tribeof Judah has come.
And then he looks and he sees alamb.
And it's not it's not intendedto be a bait and switch kind of
idea it's the lion, is the lamb.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
He's both.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
But then it goes on to say because of who he is.
In verse nine of Revelationfive, worthy are you to take the
scroll and to open its seals?
For you were slain, and by yourblood.
So just to be clear, they'redeclaring the worthiness of
Jesus because of his sacrificeof blood on the cross.
So this passage is actuallyabout the cross.
(03:21):
It's what Jesus did.
When it says and by your blood,that's a direct reference to
the cross.
But according to this passage,look what his blood accomplishes
by your blood you ransomedpeople for God from every tribe,
in language and people andnation.
What I find fascinating aboutwhat John does here through the
Holy Spirit, he doesn't just sayand you ransomed people from
(03:43):
God, from everywhere.
He goes out of his way to useterms, very specific terms tribe
, language, people and nation,to highlight that the redemption
of God, the ransoming of peoplefor God through the blood of
Jesus Christ on the cross, isintended to find a multi-ethnic
community.
This is part of the reason Oneway that I said it to a
(04:03):
colleague of mine is that notthe main reason, but one of the
reasons.
One way that I said it to acolleague of mine is that not
the main reason, but one of thereasons.
One of the reasons Jesus diedon the cross was to redeem and
ransom to himself a multi-ethniccommunity.
I don't see any other way ofinterpreting this verse than
through that lens.
It's not the main reason, it'snot the only reason Jesus died,
but if any of you know ideas ofwhat we refer to as the
(04:24):
atonement, the reasons why Jesusdied, we appreciate.
I think the main theory of theatonement is that he died for
our sins.
But other things wereaccomplished at the cross.
Namely, he died for our sins sothat he to have a multi-ethnic
(04:46):
community in heaven in glory.
That gives a greateropportunity to give glory back
to the lion and to the lamb.
So I think we need toappreciate again that the cross
is doing something.
The work of the atonement isconnected.
It's not the only reason, butit's part of the reason Jesus
died, which puts thisconversation on a much higher
plane.
This is not just like, if weget time to talk about
(05:08):
reconciliation, great.
No, this is to the very heartof the gospel and if we miss it,
it's to our incredible lossthat we don't see the full
beauty.
It's kind of like a diamond.
It has many facets.
Turn it, it sparkles.
This is one of the facets ofthe gospel that I think we need
to find and find the joy andbeauty in it?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, and it's interesting because when you
read that scripture fromRevelation, it ties right back
to what you mentioned in episodetwo about Genesis and Genesis
11 and what happened there,because that's when the
diversity in the nation startedto be, and so he's coming back
to reconcile that.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
That's a great way of saying it, aaron, what he
started in Abraham.
Abraham, I want to work withyou and your nation to bless the
nations.
But we see failure afterfailure after failure in the Old
Testament.
And so what does God do?
He comes down and he's going tobe, but the only way he can
reach the nations is by dyingfor them.
I think too often we get soworked up in the political
(06:05):
discourse of this discussion itblinds us to the gospel
orientation of this discussion.
Jesus died for a multi-ethniccommunity.
Put aside whatever other biasesor political notions you may
have.
Let the gospel first speak toit.
This is why we celebrateChristmas.
Part of the joy of saying MerryChristmas is that Jesus became
a man to fulfill the reality ofRevelation 5.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I'm getting emotional as you're talking about this,
because I mean, we see, here atBen Lippin we have an
international program withstudents literally from all over
the world, and even with ourday program we have students
from different parts of theworld or different cities, and
it's overwhelming to me to thinkabout that.
So in our discussion so far wecovered God and the fall and the
(06:50):
cross, but we are missing a keycomponent that kind of makes it
all happen for us.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
That's exactly right, because what Jesus accomplishes
on the cross, he now gives us,the church, the opportunity to
live out, which I find soamazing.
It's kind of like when Godstarted with Adam and Eve.
He doesn't need them to do hiswork, but he wants to labor with
them because we're made in hisimage.
I think we see a repeat of thatwith the beginning of the
church.
Jesus accomplishes the work,but he wants to partner with us
(07:15):
to realize the work.
He doesn't need our help, buthe wants to partner with us.
And so I looked up a passage inActs, chapter two.
It's what theologians oftenrefer to as the beginning of the
church, church with a big Cright Church.
That's been going on for about2000 years in all kinds of
contexts and cultures andcommunities.
The church is the bride ofChrist.
It's the means by which he nowwill reach the nation.
(07:39):
The work is done, but the workis now to be affected through
the church.
And what I love about Actschapter two, if you read through
this passage, it talks abouthow there suddenly came from
heaven a sound like a mightyrushing wind.
It filled the entire housewhere they were sitting and the
divided tongues, as a fireappeared to them, rested on each
one of them and they were allfilled with the Holy Spirit and
began to speak in other tonguesas the Spirit gave them
(08:02):
utterance.
What's so amazing about this?
I don't have time to readthrough, but if you read Acts,
chapter 2, verses 5 to 11, thephysician, dr Luke, goes through
and names all of the differentplaces they're from.
It's almost like you kind ofappreciate physicians being
detailed in their work.
This is what he does when he'swriting this account of the Acts
of the Apostles and he talksabout from Parthenians and Medes
(08:23):
and Judea and Cappadocia.
And he goes through this longlist and part of me is like Luke
, why not just say from all overthe place?
And I think what he's doing ishe's going out of his way,
through the inspiration of theHoly Spirit, to highlight these
are people from all over thenations the same nations that
were dispersed all the way backin Genesis 11, are now gathered
together and look what happens.
Remember Genesis 11, as Aaronsaid before, if you missed that
(08:44):
podcast, go listen to it.
But in Genesis 11, god comesdown and through language
divides.
But look now here at Acts 2.
God, through the Holy Spirit,comes down and through language
unites.
You're supposed to see thosebookends from Genesis 11 and
Acts 2.
Genesis 11 is because of therebellion of man and the
judgment of God to divide themthrough language.
(09:05):
But Acts 2 is because of thefinished work of Christ on the
cross, which now enables peoplefrom all of these different
nations to come together.
As it says there, we hear themtelling in our own tongues
Before they couldn't understandeach other and they were divided
.
Now they understand each other,but what do they understand?
We hear them telling in our owntongues the mighty works of God
(09:27):
.
The whole point is that now andyou read the rest of Acts and
you see that what starts inJerusalem, this ragtag group of
people, are now being sent,sometimes by their own decisions
, sometimes through persecution,but there is no doubt that the
gospel starts spreading to allof these people outside of the
Jewish nation.
Sometimes people struggle withthat.
(09:52):
Look at what Peter goes through.
Look at the council atJerusalem, Look at all the
discussions.
Can people who are not Jew comeinto relationship with God?
And the answer is yes, Becauseof what Christ accomplished.
The church has now has theopportunity to be a witness to
the mighty works of God.
But I love those bookends.
Genesis 11, god comes down andthrough language divides.
Acts 2, god comes down andthrough language unites.
(10:13):
We can't miss that.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
No, it's beautiful and it's, you know, even
applying that to ourselves withthe language that we use, can be
used, like Genesis, to divide,or it can be like we see here in
Acts, to unify.
So we can use that parallel.
As you're talking to him,thinking, you know you're naming
all the nations and it's thislong list, and what came to mind
is he called the nations byname.
(10:36):
And we all don't, we all desireto be called by name and to be
recognized and to be seen, andwe even see that.
You know by name.
I have called you, you are mine, or you know we were knit in
our mother's womb, and we evensee that.
You know by name.
I have called you, you are mine, or you know we were knit in
our mother's womb, and so that'san example of that too.
You know he calls the nationsby name because he cares and
loves all of them and Luke, Ilove how he defines that.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
He goes out of his way to highlight that.
We see a story later of Philipwith an Ethiopian eunuch and
again, this guy's already gottwo strikes against him.
He's an Ethiopian and he's aeunuch According to Old
Testament law.
Both those things disqualifyhim from coming into the
assembly of God.
And yet, because of thefinished work of Christ on the
cross and what is initiated inthe church, this Ethiopian
(11:18):
eunuch who's reading a scrollfrom the book of Isaiah is like
is this someone I can know?
Is this a reality for me?
Ethiopian eunuch, which Philipsays yeah, that is unheard of In
the thousands of years of theJewish faith that someone who is
so far outside can be broughtin.
Why?
Because what God started inGenesis 1, making humanity in
(11:39):
his image is now what he'sredeeming to himself, but still
engaging with the realities ofwho they are.
I just think that's such abeautiful reality.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
Yeah, god doesn't change, he is who he is.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
He is Exactly.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Okay, so what are the realities and the culmination
of these when it comes to racialdiscussions?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And I love the word that you use there, erin the
culmination.
That's exactly what this is.
It's the resolution that Godhas, because we're in this
moment of reconciliation, ofredemption.
But we need to be honest, it'sstill hard, it's still difficult
, we're still working, sometimesnot always working well, and so
the hope that we have, thereason why saints throughout
history have said Maranatha toeach other is because we look
(12:20):
forward to the day of Jesus'sreturn, the King coming back to
put right all that is wrong.
And there's a passage inRevelation 7, we're going back
to the book of Revelation whereagain John sees a vision.
He doesn't discuss just thethings that were like Revelation
5, but he also talks about thethings that are to come.
And when John is given a visionof what is to come Revelation
7,.
After this I looked and beholda great multitude that no one
(12:41):
could number and again look athis detail from every nation and
tribe and people and language.
The same distinctions that weremade in Revelation 5 regarding
the death of Jesus secures thosepeople.
John now looks into the futureand he sees those same people
standing before the throne andbefore the lamb, clothed in
white robes, with palm branchesin their hands and crying out
with a loud voice Salvationbelongs to our God, who sits on
(13:04):
the throne, and to the lamb.
What I love about this again,john doesn't just say I saw a
whole bunch of people.
He goes out of his ways todescribe a multi-ethnic, diverse
community, and I think thereason is is because even in
their diversity there'ssignificant unity, but it's
actually their diversity thatinforms their unity.
(13:26):
So the fact that they're inwhite robes, I think, is key,
because they're now clothed withthe righteousness of Christ,
but they don't how can I saythis best?
They don't lose their ethnicreality.
I look at a passage like thisand I have to understand.
Let me say this very clearlyyou can't see me in the podcast,
but my family is originallyfrom India and so my complexion
is brown, very, very dark skin,comparatively to Erin, who I can
(13:50):
assume you're from more of aEuropean background.
Correct, yes, and so you wouldidentify, I assume, as white.
Yes, based on this verse, I'mgoing to go out on a bit of a
limb, but I don't think too farof a limb.
When we get to glory, we willmaintain our ethnic realities,
(14:11):
according to this passage, whenthere's people from every tribe
and tongue and nation andlanguage.
I think if I'm born a brown manin this life, I'm going to
persist to be a brown man inglory.
If you're born a white woman inthis life, you're going to
persist as a white woman inglory.
But here's the reason why Godwants to persist our differences
, because the differencesactually add to the fact that
only Jesus can bring us together, only the great conductor.
(14:32):
If you've ever been to asymphony, you know when you
listen to the brass section, ohthey're awesome.
And you listen to the woodwinds, oh they're incredible.
And you hear the strings andyou're like, oh, that's amazing.
But it's only when thediversity of the symphony comes
together under the instructionof the great conductor that you
fully love and enjoy the beautyof the song.
(14:52):
What if we look at glory in thatsame way that when we all get
to heaven?
My wife is also of Europeandescent and she's very white and
I'm very brown.
God will not bring us to heavenone day and take out his
universal, remote and colorcorrect us all to beige right?
Yeah, he's not going to darkenher up and he's not going to
lighten me up, because thedifferences we have here in life
(15:14):
are intended to be a reflectionof the glory of God.
He wants the diversity, but notjust for diversity's sake, and
I think that's where we kind ofgo wrong in our culture.
We want diversity for ourselves.
God wants diversity for hisglory.
What if we got a vision of that?
And what if, kind of like theLord's Prayer our Father, which
art in heaven, give us this dayor day?
Thy kingdom come, thy will bedone, and earth as it is in
(15:36):
heaven.
What if we have a vision forwhat God's going to do in the
glory?
To come and work for thatreality now.
I to come and work for thatreality now.
I think that's what our hope inChrist is all about is that we
have a vision of what he's goingto do and we can have hope to
live that reality out.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Difficult to be sure but possible because of the
finished work of Christ that wetalked about on the cross.
It's so true.
I love everything that we havetalked about and that we're just
continuing to build on this andour prayer.
Dr Matthew and I, we've beenpraying about this podcast for a
while, but our prayer is thatthe Lord is just working within
you through listening to thisand that he is showing you his
truth and where he wants you tomove and grow.
So I'm going to close thisepisode up like we have the
(16:15):
other two.
What would you say to theperson who's listening to this
and like, wow, this is justgreat, but I don't really know
what to do with the information.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Those three points that we kind of covered today in
this episode cross, redemptionand glory.
Have you first to quote someold great hymns have you come to
the cross?
And I don't mean for salvation,but the cross informs my
continued sanctification.
I can get caught up in all thedebates and politics of this
topic and just get so polarized,but when I come to the cross it
(16:42):
just humbles me.
It just it puts me in rightperspective to him, One of the
reasons Jesus died was to redeema multi-ethnic community for
his glory.
Am I willing to embrace thatcross?
That's hard.
When Jesus says, take up yourcross, that's a hard thing to do
but it actually leads tosomething so much better.
But can we start there with thehopes then, of that cross truth
(17:04):
informing our redemption work?
And so to me again, part of itis am I willing to engage with
others, kind of like whathappened in Acts 2.
Am I willing to actually sitdown and have a cup of coffee
with someone who's not from mycommunity and start talking
about some of this stuff?
Hey, did you hear that podcastthat Ben Lippin's putting out?
I'd love to get your thoughts.
What do you think, what do youlike, what do you not like, but
do it with someone that youwould never think you would do.
(17:26):
Because I think that's whatthey felt like at Pentecost what
is that guy doing there?
Why is she here?
But then they saw the mightyworks of God and said, oh, look
what God is doing.
If we can start having thoseconversations just little bit,
maybe just reaching out tosomebody outside of your
comfortable community and havingsome coffee, I think that'd be
a good thing.
To then celebrate that we'renot just stuck here.
(17:47):
There's a future hope.
How can you think about?
I always tell my kids atChristmas time Christmas leads
to Easter, easter leads to theKing.
How can this time help us thinkabout what God is going to do
in the future?
How can we be part of asymphony that actually brings
greater glory to the conductor?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Thank you so much for that.
Okay, so, like we said in theother episodes, we have a form
linked in the show notes.
If you have any questions,comments concerns that you would
like to share with me or DrMatthew, please fill out that
form.
We want you to fill out thatform.
We want to know your thoughtsand have your questions, because
we're going to be doing a finalwrap-up episode where we're
taking all of your questions,comments concerns and discussing
(18:24):
them because we want you tohave a voice in this discussion
as well.
So, before we hit stop, how canpeople get in touch with you if
they want to?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, I always appreciate communication with
others to the degree I canactually have a cup of coffee.
That's always good.
But you can always reach methrough an email benmathew at
ciuedu.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Wonderful.
All right, guys, we'll see youon our.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com