October 28, 2025 • 27 mins
What if the thing making parenting feel impossible isn’t you, but the way our world flips risk and connection on their heads? We sit down with Dr. Seth Scott—counselor educator, assistant dean, and dad—to unpack why raising kids in today’s culture can feel like sprinting uphill with a phone in each hand. From earlier individuation and eroding community to the tug-of-war over when to give a child a phone, we trace how isolation sneaks in, why symptoms deserve curiosity, and where parents can reclaim steady ground.
We walk through the biggest modern pressure points: the myth of constant safety, the very real hazards of unfiltered online life, and the rising expectation that parents should always know, always respond, always fix. Dr. Scott offers a whole-child framework—biological, psychological, social, and spiritual—that helps reframe “acting out” as a signal. Sometimes the right move is protein and bedtime, not punishment. We dig into how tech can numb discomfort just enough to stall growth, and how to rebuild the muscles of boredom tolerance, conflict repair, and resilience so kids can handle real-life stress without spiraling.
Parents aren’t sidelined in this story. Using the reservoir-and-dam metaphor, we explore emotional self-awareness, practical outlets that prevent evening meltdowns, and the power of tag-teaming with a spouse or trusted community. The aim isn’t perfect parenting; it’s “good enough” parenting grounded in consistent love, clear limits, and thoughtful repair. You’ll leave with language for tough transitions, ideas to delay or right-size phones, and confidence to see behavior as information, not defiance.
If this conversation helps you breathe a little easier, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs encouragement, and leave a quick review so more parents can find it. What hard place are you navigating right now?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
Today I'm going to beintroducing a new two-part
series to the Ben Lippen Podcastabout parenting in the hard
places.
And I have with me today Dr.
Seth Scott.
He is a professor over at CIU.
Dr.
Scott, will you just tell us alittle bit about yourself and
what makes you an expert in thisparticular topic?
Dr. Seth Scott (00:20):
Sure.
Glad to be here.
So I'm the assistant dean forthe seminary and school of
counseling, and I'm the directorof our clinical counseling
program, our MA program, andteach and created our PhD in
counselor education supervision.
I'm also the father of twoteenagers, a college student and
a high school student.
And so some personal experiencein parenting in hard places.
(00:40):
But my training and experiencein clinical work over the past
almost 20 years has beenpredominantly in working with
families and kids with issues ofconduct and then kind of
walking families through thesystemic issues of addiction,
trauma, family systems issueslike divorce and separation.
And so most of my focus hasbeen on supporting kids and
advocating for kids and youngadults in these areas and then
(01:03):
working with couples on issuesof marriage and family and
addiction and in loss,separation, and trauma.
Mrs. Erin Kay (01:09):
We're grateful to have you here and to be able to
lean into your wisdom to helpguide our parents who either
might currently be going throughhard places or hard places will
come in the future.
So our first episode, it'sfocused on navigating crisis and
transition.
So can you share a little bitabout what it would mean to
(01:30):
parent in hard places?
Dr. Seth Scott (01:32):
Yeah, I think that anytime there's change, we
have to adapt and adjust whatwe're doing because what we did
yesterday may not work today asthe parameters change.
And so parenting is all aboutthat, right?
Is at every developmentalstage, you might have just
figured out how to parent yourtoddler and now they're an
elementary school kid.
And as soon as you figure thatout, and then you might figure
out how to parent one kid andthe next kid comes and you try
(01:53):
to apply those same principlesand they're different.
So parenting in general isdifficult, but specifically
parenting in hard places is thekind of external pressures and
systemic factors that just addto the complexity of trying to
parent.
And so things like addiction,like cell phones, trauma, the
noise of our world, and thenyour kind of your own
background, history, family oforigin, maybe issues in
(02:16):
marriage, divorce, separation,infidelity, those are how do we
sustain and kind of hold on toour capacity to represent God
well in the lives of our kidsand to parent well in spite of
our own cycles and struggles anddifficulties.
And so parenting in the hardplaces can range across the
continuum from expecteddevelopmental milestones like
(02:39):
parenting kids as they head intoschool, parenting middle
schoolers and the complexity ofthe 21st century and peers and
isolation and friendship toparenting through our own
struggles and maintainingconsistency in those.
Mrs. Erin Kay (02:52):
Yeah, it's interesting that you place cell
phones and trauma in the samecontainer as parenting in the
hard places.
Can you speak to that a littlebit more?
Dr. Seth Scott (03:01):
So you would explain that uh in creation, God
created us in his image to bein relationship with him, with
one another, have kind of wholeand complete understanding of
ourselves and engagement withcreation.
Part of the fall was that weexchanged the trust of that
relationship and God kind ofdefining things for us to choose
(03:23):
to define things for ourselves.
And that fractured ourrelationships.
And so from there, we have thistendency towards selfish
self-centeredness and curvinginward on ourselves, and
isolation is a component ofthat.
And so the world around us,we're we're constantly pushing
against the pursuit ofrelationship in kind of
(03:43):
selfishness to relationship inwholeness.
And the things that occur inour world are factors of that.
So trauma is a fracturing ofyour sense of self and your self
in relationship.
And cell phones, as SherryTurkle explained in her book,
Alone Together, technology camealong at such a place where we
were beginning as a society toindividuate and need connection.
(04:06):
And the internet promised theseconnections at just the time
when it was most necessarybecause we were starting to kind
of fracture as a culture, as asociety, become more
individuated.
And yet the promise ofconnection was a fake promise
that created a vicious cycle ofmeeting our needs just enough to
not motivate us to engage ineffective real relationship.
(04:26):
And so the reason we combinekind of the role of phones and
trauma is they're both an aspectof the consequence of the fall
of fractured relationships.
But it's like amplifying theeffect of the fall in that we
are even more separated, evenmore disconnected, even more
isolated from one anotherbecause of our hurt, which then
(04:47):
causes us to retreat and seeksafety in relationship, like
connected through technology.
But then that continued safetymakes us weaker and more
fragile, which makes us morelikely to be shattered.
And so the perpetuation of thiscycle means that technology
itself will make parenting moredifficult because as Jonathan
(05:09):
Hayde says in The AnxiousGeneration, right?
We now live in probably in theUnited States one of the safest
cultures in the world, one ofthe safest times in the world.
And yet we're afraid to let ourkids kind of engage in real
life because of the perceiveddangers.
And yet the internet is thewild west and the unknown.
And so we restrict our kidsfrom what we know to be safe in
(05:30):
real life in engagement, but werestrict our kids in what
actually is really dangerous intechnological life and the
internet.
We've reversed the perceptionof danger, which then leads to
continued fracturing anddisruption.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:45):
I understand what you're the picture you're
painting here.
And, you know, when we look atthe fall, it kind of sets the
tone and normalizes for us thatparenting will be hard and
parenting will have hard places,even though that was not God's
intentional design with it.
So speaking of society andculture and where we are today,
what are some of the most commoncrises or transitions that
(06:07):
families are facing today?
Dr. Seth Scott (06:08):
So it used to be that probably in high school
you had to navigate thatconnection and release as kids
want to do more things infreedom and independence with
their peers.
That's occurring earlier now.
And I think one of the biggestdecisions that parents have to
make is when do you firstintroduce something like a cell
phone?
It's not an individual or afamily decision because of the
(06:28):
peer pressure of everyone else.
That's a hard developmentaltransition that we know is kind
of it's happening too early, butit has big implications.
The expectations forindividuation, for privacy, for
isolation are something thatwe're fighting against.
The lack of community forfamilies in raising kids.
And so I think it was actuallyHillary Clinton that wrote the
(06:51):
book, right?
It takes a village to raise achild.
In previous generations, and inmost places around the world,
it does.
Like people work in community,communal lifestyles to help
support, if not the direct childrearing, the values and needs
and assumptions of the children,of the parents, of the family.
And so I think parenting isespecially difficult today
(07:12):
because we live in a societythat has, we've always lived in
a world that has competingvalues, but we now live in a
world whose values are sodissonant to what we would view
as biblical and Christian valuesthat our kids are growing up
with desires and assumptionsthat are contrary to a biblical
worldview, and we're losing thevoice, right?
So we don't have as vocal apresence because our kids are
(07:35):
influenced from younger andyounger ages through media,
through other things.
And so, yeah, some of thosehard places are just the degree
of influence that we have, theamount of time that we have to
speak into our kids' lives, theopportunities that we have.
So again, we're busy.
We're busier, I think, thanwe've been before.
We spend less time while wehave more total time with our
kids.
The time we have is not asfocused, it's more disrupted.
(07:57):
And so each of these things andbeing pulled in all directions
makes parenting much moredifficult.
And trying to do it alone, Ithink, makes it additionally
complex.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:07):
So we have the pull to isolation with some of
the advances in technology andadvances in the approach.
How does that couple with someof the hard places of parenting
that we can relate to thathappened in biblical times that
are still happening today?
Dr. Seth Scott (08:24):
Yeah, I think that, you know, you've always
had the family life cycle wherekids grow up through different
stages.
Having young kids has alwaysbeen difficult.
You know, pairing the needs ofinfants with the reduced sleep
that you have, I don't I thinkthat's always been an issue,
right?
Mary and Joseph, I'm sure, youknow, whether they took turns or
not, when Jesus, you know, wokeup in the middle of the night,
(08:46):
someone had to deal with thatand they're probably both
exhausted.
Right.
So some of those things areuniversals.
But the difference today is ourincreasing individualism and
kind of selfishness as aculture, as a society, which
causes us to have to overcomeour own entitlement or
expectations.
That I think in previousgenerations there was a more
(09:06):
cohesive collective lens.
And so in biblical times, firstcentury Judaism, right, you had
a society that kind of haddifferent values that would
conform.
And so if your marriage wasn'tgoing well, for good or for bad,
you didn't have many options toget out of it.
And up through like the late70s in the United States, right?
(09:27):
We had very few divorces andprobably more abuse, but very
few divorces because the kind ofcollective assumption was
marriage stays together with thefreedom for no fault divorces.
That creates new hard placesfor kids, right?
The impact of divorce on kids.
And so I think as eachgeneration shifts, the normal
developmental milestones ofraising kids are always going to
(09:49):
be there.
When do you let kids sleep overat a friend's house on their
own?
At what point do you let kidsride their bike around the
neighborhood?
But our society amplifies.
So, like since the 50s, right,kids have gotten their license
and had the autonomy andfreedom.
And so multiple generationsbefore us have had to, as
parents, had to kind of releaseand address the fear of your kid
(10:11):
driving, pulling out of thedriveway for the first time.
I think the complexity of thatnow is amplified by both the
presence of a cell phone so thatwe know where they are at all
times, but the expectation thatwe then should know where they
are at all times as a result andthat they should be always
available creates a heightenedanxiety or expectation, as well
as the distraction that comesfrom that for the safety of
(10:34):
driving, for example.
Right.
So every time we have anadvancement in technology to
hopefully provide more ease orconnection, it's hollow.
So that I think parenting todayis more difficult because our
expectations for what we shouldbe able to do is higher.
So when my daughter at college,because she has a cell phone
and I can text her, I wouldexpect to hear back from her
(10:56):
when I text her.
And if I don't, it could createheightened anxiety of well,
what's wrong?
Is there something wrong?
Why isn't she responding?
Whereas when I was in college,there is a floor phone for, you
know, 30 people that, you know,I could go weeks with missing
calls from my mom and or my dadand me trying to call back and
missing and just leaving noteson a whiteboard.
But that the expectation ofaccess and availability has
(11:17):
created a more anxious societybecause we think that we should
be able to do more.
So we think that we should beable to regulate and control
things.
We think that bad thingsshouldn't happen because we live
in a safer society.
So all of these are elements Ithink that make parenting hard
because what we think we shoulddo and the demands we place on
us just heighten theexpectations that are more
(11:39):
difficult to meet.
Mrs. Erin Kay (11:40):
So shifting gears a little bit and looking at
transitions and the crises thatcan occur in the lives of adults
and children, how do childrentypically respond to these
disruptions?
And I know it's it'll bedifferent for kindergartner
versus a 12th grader.
So could you paint a picture ofkind of what those milestones
would look like, what thoseexperiences would look like,
(12:02):
depending on where that child isdevelopmentally?
Dr. Seth Scott (12:04):
Yeah, one of the things that's important to
understand is that ourexperience as adults of
transition, of uncertainty, ofanxiety might produce hesitancy
or sadness or fear.
In kids, those same symptomsmight look very different.
So a child that's experiencingfriend issues in school and the
the aloneness or the you knowmelancholy from that may start
(12:28):
acting out behaviorally or maystart, because they have trouble
sleeping, may be more grumpy ormoody.
And if we try to apply likebehavioral approaches to that
without understanding thatthey're reacting or responding
to a normal social piece, thenit ends up actually create
fracturing more our opportunityfor relationship.
So as kids hit each of thesepieces, we need to look at the
(12:49):
whole person, right?
Which means we need to makesure that they're getting
effective sleep, that they'regetting sufficient nutrition,
that they have good connectionand social relationships for
trusting, listening andresponding.
All of those things kind ofneed to be in place as well as
their capacity to understand andexpress what they're
experiencing inside to peoplethat are able to listen and
respond.
And so in a society that maybedoesn't give us the language or
(13:11):
the opportunity to discuss, kidsare going to be more likely to
avoid, distract, or numb theexperience of uncomfortable
emotions that they have, whichwe have the perfect delivery
system for avoiding distractingor numbing in technology today,
right?
So the ability to sit withdiscomfort or be able to talk
through and address problemswith friends, problems at home
(13:34):
requires the language and thetime and the willingness to lean
into that.
And that's kind of a learnedmuscle of relationship.
If every time we feel anydiscomfort, whether it's pain
that we medicate or hunger thatwe feed, if our immediate
response is to escape or avoidthat discomfort, that will then
apply across all aspects oflife.
(13:56):
And we will kind of lose thediscipline or muscle of doing
harder things.
And so as we work with kids, inmany ways, parents need to let
kids be bored, right?
They need to let kids learn howto deal with and experience
aspects of discomfort becauseit's through those experiences
that we grow muscles and we havethe capacity to kind of engage
(14:16):
in more difficult things andthrough resiliency.
And so some of thosedevelopmental milestones that
are normal are, you know, peerpressure or peer relationships,
right?
So kids have to figure out howto get along, how to disagree,
how to have conflict.
When they observe their parentsnot being able to resolve
conflict, and that leads tomaybe separation or divorce,
which complicates it, then theydon't know how to deal with it
(14:36):
either.
And they're dealing with theadded pressure of observing that
and the uncertainty of that andnot having modeled to then
cause disruption in their intheir peer relationships.
And so we would see you'd seesleep disturbance, behavioral
disturbance, maybe grade issues,right?
It's hard to focus.
Kids might have symptoms ofanxiety that is not necessarily
anxiety or symptoms that looklike ADHD or ADD that are more
(15:00):
sleep disturbance or disruptionfrom technology.
And so we want to be quick, wewant to not be too quick to just
assume that it's anxiety orADHD or trauma and assess the
whole person in their system'scontext to say, are you getting
enough sleep?
What are your relationshipslike?
Because we need to prepare youfor normal developmental pieces
like disagreeing with friends,like launching into high school
(15:21):
and the added stressors ofhomework, preparing for
uncertainty of self in laterhigh school, going to college,
right?
And so if we can look at thewhole person and look at the
system, some of those symptomsare symptoms to tell us
something's wrong without maybebeing quick to just solve the
symptom.
Right.
Johan Hari in his book LostConnections gives the example of
(15:41):
eating a tainted applesomewhere in Asia and it it
caused vomiting and diarrhea.
And he was dangerouslydehydrated.
And he told the doctors, no, Ijust give me something so that I
don't feel this anymore.
And the doctors told him, No,the symptoms tell us that
something is wrong, right?
We we need the symptoms to tellus something is wrong.
I think we live in a culturethat is quick to try to resolve
(16:02):
the symptoms by avoidingescaping or numbing and not deal
with the underlying cause,which is fracturing of self
through sin and disruption ofrelationships in a culture that
individuates and isolates.
And so parenting is especiallydifficult today, I think,
because we all tend to be moredistracted and isolated than
before.
Mrs. Erin Kay (16:22):
You've mentioned the whole child, the whole
person several times.
Can you explain a little bitdeeper what you mean by the
whole child?
Dr. Seth Scott (16:30):
Yeah, so God designed us as bio-psychosocial
spiritual beings.
So we are we are biological, wehave mirror neurons, we have
synapses, we have biochemicalsin our system that inform that
is influenced by sleep, bynutrition.
We are psychological that formsbelief systems and values of
thinking and processing that canbe adjusted and informed.
(16:52):
We are social in that we aremade for, God designed us for
relationship, and that we arespiritual, we are created for
relationship with Him andothers.
All of those dynamics togetherinfluence and affect one another
and can be habituated orlearned and adjusted.
And so, for example, if whenyou feel hungry, you feel like
that means, well, I have a pitin my stomach, that means that
(17:14):
I'm hungry.
Your belief is that hungershould be resolved.
And so you go to the cabinetand get something.
And that getting somethingmakes you feel better both
emotionally and physically.
If you do that in isolation,that's the relational pieces,
all kind of tied together andinforming one another.
But if when you feel hungry, itdrives you to uh have a meal
with your family, the bio,psychosocial, spiritual
(17:37):
relationships that we associatethen with hunger become
something that meet ourrelational needs as well as our
physical needs instead of justour physical or emotional needs.
So kids are all of those thingstogether, but our tendency is
to break things down intocomponent parts and try to come
up with simplistic solutions.
And so uh when kids aremisbehaving at 3:30 on your
(17:59):
drive home from picking them upat school, we tend to view that
as a behavioral issue.
If they're 10 years old, thelikelihood is, or even if
they're 15 years old, thelikelihood is that they ate
lunch at 10:30 and now it's 3:30and they're tired from sitting
still and paying attention allday, and they're hungry.
So that what looks like abehavioral issue could be
resolved with peanut buttercrackers.
(18:19):
And so recognizing that all ofthese things influence each
other helps us see a child andsee the component parts as
influencing and informing oneanother to be able to represent
love and compassion across theirwhole self.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:33):
Do you see an over complication of parenting
approaches to navigating some ofthese simple things like I ate
lunch at 10:30 and also the morecomplex things that children
are going through, whether it'sa divorce or a death in the
family, things like that.
Do you see an overcomplicationof how parents are engaging in
(18:54):
working through those thingswith their children?
Dr. Seth Scott (18:56):
I think that we're flooded with information
all of the time.
And so it's difficult to knowwhat to do at any given moment
because it seems like there'salways more research to be done
and there's competing responsesfor those, right?
So there's, you know, fivesteps for this, seven steps for
this.
We want to address the wholebrainchild here, but we want to
make sure they get leafy greensand organic here.
(19:19):
And so I think because we haveso much information, it
paralyzes us in making anychoices because I think parents
are told that the wrong choicehas significant implications.
And I mean, one of the dangers,even in the past couple of
weeks, of the exploration of allright, well, what seems to
contribute to autism is there'sa danger in trying to identify
(19:41):
one thing in a complex systembecause it creates an aspect of
blame potentially for you didthis or you caused this.
If only I had done somethingdifferent in this moment.
And so I think that because welive in a society where there's
so much information, we feellike we should know better, but
there's competing informationand we have to make a decision
in any given moment.
I think the simplistic approachto parenting is we need to just
(20:03):
be a good enough parent.
We're not gonna be a greatparent, probably all the time,
and we're not gonna be the bestparent for our child at any
given moment.
We need to be a good parent,which means we are attentive to
our child's needs and we exhibitGod's love to them in as
consistent manner as we can byrepresenting God in their lives.
And that's gonna look likediscipline at times, that's
(20:25):
gonna look like grace and mercyat other times.
But in order to be able tofoster the identity of your
child, you need to know who youare in relationship to self and
God and others.
And I think that's where webreak down a lot of times.
And so parenting becomesespecially difficult if you
haven't dealt with your ownstuff.
So if you're unsure of who youare and you're still trying to
(20:48):
kind of use others or use thingsor use your child to give you
meaning and value and purpose,then you're not going to be able
to give from a place ofwholeness and completeness to
your child.
And then your child doesn'testablish their sense of self in
kind of attachment andacceptance.
And that just trickles downgeneration after generation.
And so parenting means that youknow you are loved by God and
(21:09):
you are able to then experiencethat love and express that love
to others in healthyrelationships and provide care
and support for your child fromthe safety of that relationship.
Mrs. Erin Kay (21:20):
As parents, we are whole people as well.
Just because we graduate fromhigh school or cross over the
threshold into adulting doesn'tmean that we are any less of a
whole person than we were whenwe were a child.
So, how can parents balancetheir emotional needs and even
their needs to be a whole personwhile also supporting their
(21:42):
children?
Dr. Seth Scott (21:42):
I think it's important.
So we think emotions begin withour expression of them, but
actually they begin inrecognizing that lots of things
contribute to the experience ofemotions and then the expression
of emotions.
So I have an analogy that I useof a reservoir and dam for
emotions, in that lots of eventscome in and build up flowing
upstream into our reservoir thatbuild up pressure behind the
(22:05):
wall of the dam.
And our ability to experienceand express emotions is
determined to some degree by ourinsight and awareness of what
we are experiencing, and thenour capacity to express and
control those emotions inappropriate ways to provide
outlets to power ourrelationships.
And so I think as society, andthen specifically as parents, we
(22:27):
lack awareness of our emotionalstates.
We're not aware of what's goingon inside of us until it's too
much, until it's more than wecan handle.
And then we end up kind ofexploding with the water going
over the top of the damn wallinstead of going through in
powered control.
And so one of the things thatas parents we need for our
emotional needs is we need to beable to be aware of what our
(22:48):
present emotional state is.
As I work with a lot of parentsin conduct issues, they'll say,
My kid goes from zero to 10.
And so no interventions work.
And I said, Well, actually,everybody goes through all of
those numbers, but we may not beaware that we're actually
starting at a six or a seven,not a zero, because we're we
don't have awareness of ourinternal state.
And so the work in working withkids is trying to help them be
(23:10):
aware of, all right, what areyou experiencing inside?
How does the sensation in yourbody influence your
interpretation of thatexperience to produce a belief
that informs an interpretationof emotion that we then express?
So kids have trouble doing thisbecause it's learned and
modeled from parents.
So as parents, we can be awareof all right, how has our day
impacted the level of water inour emotional reservoir?
(23:33):
So that when I get home and I'mtired and I'm cranky and I'm
hungry, and it's 5:30 and I'mtrying to have my kids do
homework and make dinner, and myspouse comes in the door, our
water reservoir is cresting atthe top.
And so that means that maybe werelease water earlier, we let
out emotions through effectiveexpression or practice or
physical exercise so that weknow that four o'clock to seven
(23:57):
o'clock time frame is gonna be aflood of lots more emotions.
And so I need to prepare myselfand have appropriate outlets to
exhibit and express thoseemotions in effective and
constructive ways.
But this is where I think God'sdesign for two parents and then
community and village is sonecessary because just like
growing up watching, you know,WWF wrestling, tag team,
(24:19):
hopefully in in parenting, infamilies, when you're
overwhelmed, exhaustedemotionally, physically,
relationally, spiritually, youcan tap out and tag somebody
else who's able to come infresh.
And so that's part of thenecessity of maintaining the
priority of your marriage as acouple as the primary
preventative support for raisinggood kids.
(24:40):
You have one another's back.
You're able to experience God'slove, you're able to express
God's love, you're able to feelseen and valued and heard so
that your emotional reservoir isregulated to then give more
than you're ever probablyimagined you're able to to your
kids in times of need becauseyou have someone else that's
there for you and hopefully lotsof people that are there for
(25:01):
you.
So, yeah, as parents, our ownemotional needs mean that we are
aware, we have insight andcapacity, and then we have
appropriate expressions andoutlets relationally to maintain
our own spiritual, emotional,relational help.
Mrs. Erin Kay (25:15):
It sounds like when we're parenting in some of
these hard places, whether it isthrough when my child is going
to have a cell phone and thosehard discussions that occur to
death in the family or someother kind of hardship in that
way, that the nuances ofparenting are different in the
situations, but the foundationalapproach is consistent.
(25:36):
Would you say that's true?
Dr. Seth Scott (25:38):
Yeah, I think that's a great summary.
Mrs. Erin Kay (25:39):
All right.
So, what can our listenersexpect in our next episode as we
continue this conversation?
Dr. Seth Scott (25:44):
I think we want to look at what are some
specific ways to buildresilience.
And then how do we recover fromhaving done things poorly?
All of us could have done, madebetter choices at particular
points, right?
We tend to take the shortcut.
So, you know, when you took theshortcut and let your kids,
because you needed emotionalspace, watch, you know, four
hours of blues, clues, whatever.
How do you recover from thatwhen they're habituated to
(26:06):
expect that shortcut, right?
How do we recover?
How do we improve?
You know, if you've beendivorced and you're single
parenting, how do you do that?
What does that look like?
We know what the ideal is, butwe know that we also don't live
in an ideal world.
And so I think that's part ofwhat we want to look at next.
Mrs. Erin Kay (26:20):
Great.
Thanks, listeners, and makesure that you subscribe so that
you can catch the next episode.
Welcome to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
Today I'm going to beintroducing a new two-part
series to the Ben Lippen Podcastabout parenting in the hard
places.
And I have with me today Dr.
Seth Scott.
He is a professor over at CIU.
Dr.
Scott, will you just tell us alittle bit about yourself and
what makes you an expert in thisparticular topic?
Dr. Seth Scott (00:20):
Sure.
Glad to be here.
So I'm the assistant dean forthe seminary and school of
counseling, and I'm the directorof our clinical counseling
program, our MA program, andteach and created our PhD in
counselor education supervision.
I'm also the father of twoteenagers, a college student and
a high school student.
And so some personal experiencein parenting in hard places.
(00:40):
But my training and experiencein clinical work over the past
almost 20 years has beenpredominantly in working with
families and kids with issues ofconduct and then kind of
walking families through thesystemic issues of addiction,
trauma, family systems issueslike divorce and separation.
And so most of my focus hasbeen on supporting kids and
advocating for kids and youngadults in these areas and then
(01:03):
working with couples on issuesof marriage and family and
addiction and in loss,separation, and trauma.
Mrs. Erin Kay (01:09):
We're grateful to have you here and to be able to
lean into your wisdom to helpguide our parents who either
might currently be going throughhard places or hard places will
come in the future.
So our first episode, it'sfocused on navigating crisis and
transition.
So can you share a little bitabout what it would mean to
(01:30):
parent in hard places?
Dr. Seth Scott (01:32):
Yeah, I think that anytime there's change, we
have to adapt and adjust whatwe're doing because what we did
yesterday may not work today asthe parameters change.
And so parenting is all aboutthat, right?
Is at every developmentalstage, you might have just
figured out how to parent yourtoddler and now they're an
elementary school kid.
And as soon as you figure thatout, and then you might figure
out how to parent one kid andthe next kid comes and you try
(01:53):
to apply those same principlesand they're different.
So parenting in general isdifficult, but specifically
parenting in hard places is thekind of external pressures and
systemic factors that just addto the complexity of trying to
parent.
And so things like addiction,like cell phones, trauma, the
noise of our world, and thenyour kind of your own
background, history, family oforigin, maybe issues in
(02:16):
marriage, divorce, separation,infidelity, those are how do we
sustain and kind of hold on toour capacity to represent God
well in the lives of our kidsand to parent well in spite of
our own cycles and struggles anddifficulties.
And so parenting in the hardplaces can range across the
continuum from expecteddevelopmental milestones like
(02:39):
parenting kids as they head intoschool, parenting middle
schoolers and the complexity ofthe 21st century and peers and
isolation and friendship toparenting through our own
struggles and maintainingconsistency in those.
Mrs. Erin Kay (02:52):
Yeah, it's interesting that you place cell
phones and trauma in the samecontainer as parenting in the
hard places.
Can you speak to that a littlebit more?
Dr. Seth Scott (03:01):
So you would explain that uh in creation, God
created us in his image to bein relationship with him, with
one another, have kind of wholeand complete understanding of
ourselves and engagement withcreation.
Part of the fall was that weexchanged the trust of that
relationship and God kind ofdefining things for us to choose
(03:23):
to define things for ourselves.
And that fractured ourrelationships.
And so from there, we have thistendency towards selfish
self-centeredness and curvinginward on ourselves, and
isolation is a component ofthat.
And so the world around us,we're we're constantly pushing
against the pursuit ofrelationship in kind of
(03:43):
selfishness to relationship inwholeness.
And the things that occur inour world are factors of that.
So trauma is a fracturing ofyour sense of self and your self
in relationship.
And cell phones, as SherryTurkle explained in her book,
Alone Together, technology camealong at such a place where we
were beginning as a society toindividuate and need connection.
(04:06):
And the internet promised theseconnections at just the time
when it was most necessarybecause we were starting to kind
of fracture as a culture, as asociety, become more
individuated.
And yet the promise ofconnection was a fake promise
that created a vicious cycle ofmeeting our needs just enough to
not motivate us to engage ineffective real relationship.
(04:26):
And so the reason we combinekind of the role of phones and
trauma is they're both an aspectof the consequence of the fall
of fractured relationships.
But it's like amplifying theeffect of the fall in that we
are even more separated, evenmore disconnected, even more
isolated from one anotherbecause of our hurt, which then
(04:47):
causes us to retreat and seeksafety in relationship, like
connected through technology.
But then that continued safetymakes us weaker and more
fragile, which makes us morelikely to be shattered.
And so the perpetuation of thiscycle means that technology
itself will make parenting moredifficult because as Jonathan
(05:09):
Hayde says in The AnxiousGeneration, right?
We now live in probably in theUnited States one of the safest
cultures in the world, one ofthe safest times in the world.
And yet we're afraid to let ourkids kind of engage in real
life because of the perceiveddangers.
And yet the internet is thewild west and the unknown.
And so we restrict our kidsfrom what we know to be safe in
(05:30):
real life in engagement, but werestrict our kids in what
actually is really dangerous intechnological life and the
internet.
We've reversed the perceptionof danger, which then leads to
continued fracturing anddisruption.
Mrs. Erin Kay (05:45):
I understand what you're the picture you're
painting here.
And, you know, when we look atthe fall, it kind of sets the
tone and normalizes for us thatparenting will be hard and
parenting will have hard places,even though that was not God's
intentional design with it.
So speaking of society andculture and where we are today,
what are some of the most commoncrises or transitions that
(06:07):
families are facing today?
Dr. Seth Scott (06:08):
So it used to be that probably in high school
you had to navigate thatconnection and release as kids
want to do more things infreedom and independence with
their peers.
That's occurring earlier now.
And I think one of the biggestdecisions that parents have to
make is when do you firstintroduce something like a cell
phone?
It's not an individual or afamily decision because of the
(06:28):
peer pressure of everyone else.
That's a hard developmentaltransition that we know is kind
of it's happening too early, butit has big implications.
The expectations forindividuation, for privacy, for
isolation are something thatwe're fighting against.
The lack of community forfamilies in raising kids.
And so I think it was actuallyHillary Clinton that wrote the
(06:51):
book, right?
It takes a village to raise achild.
In previous generations, and inmost places around the world,
it does.
Like people work in community,communal lifestyles to help
support, if not the direct childrearing, the values and needs
and assumptions of the children,of the parents, of the family.
And so I think parenting isespecially difficult today
(07:12):
because we live in a societythat has, we've always lived in
a world that has competingvalues, but we now live in a
world whose values are sodissonant to what we would view
as biblical and Christian valuesthat our kids are growing up
with desires and assumptionsthat are contrary to a biblical
worldview, and we're losing thevoice, right?
So we don't have as vocal apresence because our kids are
(07:35):
influenced from younger andyounger ages through media,
through other things.
And so, yeah, some of thosehard places are just the degree
of influence that we have, theamount of time that we have to
speak into our kids' lives, theopportunities that we have.
So again, we're busy.
We're busier, I think, thanwe've been before.
We spend less time while wehave more total time with our
kids.
The time we have is not asfocused, it's more disrupted.
(07:57):
And so each of these things andbeing pulled in all directions
makes parenting much moredifficult.
And trying to do it alone, Ithink, makes it additionally
complex.
Mrs. Erin Kay (08:07):
So we have the pull to isolation with some of
the advances in technology andadvances in the approach.
How does that couple with someof the hard places of parenting
that we can relate to thathappened in biblical times that
are still happening today?
Dr. Seth Scott (08:24):
Yeah, I think that, you know, you've always
had the family life cycle wherekids grow up through different
stages.
Having young kids has alwaysbeen difficult.
You know, pairing the needs ofinfants with the reduced sleep
that you have, I don't I thinkthat's always been an issue,
right?
Mary and Joseph, I'm sure, youknow, whether they took turns or
not, when Jesus, you know, wokeup in the middle of the night,
(08:46):
someone had to deal with thatand they're probably both
exhausted.
Right.
So some of those things areuniversals.
But the difference today is ourincreasing individualism and
kind of selfishness as aculture, as a society, which
causes us to have to overcomeour own entitlement or
expectations.
That I think in previousgenerations there was a more
(09:06):
cohesive collective lens.
And so in biblical times, firstcentury Judaism, right, you had
a society that kind of haddifferent values that would
conform.
And so if your marriage wasn'tgoing well, for good or for bad,
you didn't have many options toget out of it.
And up through like the late70s in the United States, right?
(09:27):
We had very few divorces andprobably more abuse, but very
few divorces because the kind ofcollective assumption was
marriage stays together with thefreedom for no fault divorces.
That creates new hard placesfor kids, right?
The impact of divorce on kids.
And so I think as eachgeneration shifts, the normal
developmental milestones ofraising kids are always going to
(09:49):
be there.
When do you let kids sleep overat a friend's house on their
own?
At what point do you let kidsride their bike around the
neighborhood?
But our society amplifies.
So, like since the 50s, right,kids have gotten their license
and had the autonomy andfreedom.
And so multiple generationsbefore us have had to, as
parents, had to kind of releaseand address the fear of your kid
(10:11):
driving, pulling out of thedriveway for the first time.
I think the complexity of thatnow is amplified by both the
presence of a cell phone so thatwe know where they are at all
times, but the expectation thatwe then should know where they
are at all times as a result andthat they should be always
available creates a heightenedanxiety or expectation, as well
as the distraction that comesfrom that for the safety of
(10:34):
driving, for example.
Right.
So every time we have anadvancement in technology to
hopefully provide more ease orconnection, it's hollow.
So that I think parenting todayis more difficult because our
expectations for what we shouldbe able to do is higher.
So when my daughter at college,because she has a cell phone
and I can text her, I wouldexpect to hear back from her
(10:56):
when I text her.
And if I don't, it could createheightened anxiety of well,
what's wrong?
Is there something wrong?
Why isn't she responding?
Whereas when I was in college,there is a floor phone for, you
know, 30 people that, you know,I could go weeks with missing
calls from my mom and or my dadand me trying to call back and
missing and just leaving noteson a whiteboard.
But that the expectation ofaccess and availability has
(11:17):
created a more anxious societybecause we think that we should
be able to do more.
So we think that we should beable to regulate and control
things.
We think that bad thingsshouldn't happen because we live
in a safer society.
So all of these are elements Ithink that make parenting hard
because what we think we shoulddo and the demands we place on
us just heighten theexpectations that are more
(11:39):
difficult to meet.
Mrs. Erin Kay (11:40):
So shifting gears a little bit and looking at
transitions and the crises thatcan occur in the lives of adults
and children, how do childrentypically respond to these
disruptions?
And I know it's it'll bedifferent for kindergartner
versus a 12th grader.
So could you paint a picture ofkind of what those milestones
would look like, what thoseexperiences would look like,
(12:02):
depending on where that child isdevelopmentally?
Dr. Seth Scott (12:04):
Yeah, one of the things that's important to
understand is that ourexperience as adults of
transition, of uncertainty, ofanxiety might produce hesitancy
or sadness or fear.
In kids, those same symptomsmight look very different.
So a child that's experiencingfriend issues in school and the
the aloneness or the you knowmelancholy from that may start
(12:28):
acting out behaviorally or maystart, because they have trouble
sleeping, may be more grumpy ormoody.
And if we try to apply likebehavioral approaches to that
without understanding thatthey're reacting or responding
to a normal social piece, thenit ends up actually create
fracturing more our opportunityfor relationship.
So as kids hit each of thesepieces, we need to look at the
(12:49):
whole person, right?
Which means we need to makesure that they're getting
effective sleep, that they'regetting sufficient nutrition,
that they have good connectionand social relationships for
trusting, listening andresponding.
All of those things kind ofneed to be in place as well as
their capacity to understand andexpress what they're
experiencing inside to peoplethat are able to listen and
respond.
And so in a society that maybedoesn't give us the language or
(13:11):
the opportunity to discuss, kidsare going to be more likely to
avoid, distract, or numb theexperience of uncomfortable
emotions that they have, whichwe have the perfect delivery
system for avoiding distractingor numbing in technology today,
right?
So the ability to sit withdiscomfort or be able to talk
through and address problemswith friends, problems at home
(13:34):
requires the language and thetime and the willingness to lean
into that.
And that's kind of a learnedmuscle of relationship.
If every time we feel anydiscomfort, whether it's pain
that we medicate or hunger thatwe feed, if our immediate
response is to escape or avoidthat discomfort, that will then
apply across all aspects oflife.
(13:56):
And we will kind of lose thediscipline or muscle of doing
harder things.
And so as we work with kids, inmany ways, parents need to let
kids be bored, right?
They need to let kids learn howto deal with and experience
aspects of discomfort becauseit's through those experiences
that we grow muscles and we havethe capacity to kind of engage
(14:16):
in more difficult things andthrough resiliency.
And so some of thosedevelopmental milestones that
are normal are, you know, peerpressure or peer relationships,
right?
So kids have to figure out howto get along, how to disagree,
how to have conflict.
When they observe their parentsnot being able to resolve
conflict, and that leads tomaybe separation or divorce,
which complicates it, then theydon't know how to deal with it
(14:36):
either.
And they're dealing with theadded pressure of observing that
and the uncertainty of that andnot having modeled to then
cause disruption in their intheir peer relationships.
And so we would see you'd seesleep disturbance, behavioral
disturbance, maybe grade issues,right?
It's hard to focus.
Kids might have symptoms ofanxiety that is not necessarily
anxiety or symptoms that looklike ADHD or ADD that are more
(15:00):
sleep disturbance or disruptionfrom technology.
And so we want to be quick, wewant to not be too quick to just
assume that it's anxiety orADHD or trauma and assess the
whole person in their system'scontext to say, are you getting
enough sleep?
What are your relationshipslike?
Because we need to prepare youfor normal developmental pieces
like disagreeing with friends,like launching into high school
(15:21):
and the added stressors ofhomework, preparing for
uncertainty of self in laterhigh school, going to college,
right?
And so if we can look at thewhole person and look at the
system, some of those symptomsare symptoms to tell us
something's wrong without maybebeing quick to just solve the
symptom.
Right.
Johan Hari in his book LostConnections gives the example of
(15:41):
eating a tainted applesomewhere in Asia and it it
caused vomiting and diarrhea.
And he was dangerouslydehydrated.
And he told the doctors, no, Ijust give me something so that I
don't feel this anymore.
And the doctors told him, No,the symptoms tell us that
something is wrong, right?
We we need the symptoms to tellus something is wrong.
I think we live in a culturethat is quick to try to resolve
(16:02):
the symptoms by avoidingescaping or numbing and not deal
with the underlying cause,which is fracturing of self
through sin and disruption ofrelationships in a culture that
individuates and isolates.
And so parenting is especiallydifficult today, I think,
because we all tend to be moredistracted and isolated than
before.
Mrs. Erin Kay (16:22):
You've mentioned the whole child, the whole
person several times.
Can you explain a little bitdeeper what you mean by the
whole child?
Dr. Seth Scott (16:30):
Yeah, so God designed us as bio-psychosocial
spiritual beings.
So we are we are biological, wehave mirror neurons, we have
synapses, we have biochemicalsin our system that inform that
is influenced by sleep, bynutrition.
We are psychological that formsbelief systems and values of
thinking and processing that canbe adjusted and informed.
(16:52):
We are social in that we aremade for, God designed us for
relationship, and that we arespiritual, we are created for
relationship with Him andothers.
All of those dynamics togetherinfluence and affect one another
and can be habituated orlearned and adjusted.
And so, for example, if whenyou feel hungry, you feel like
that means, well, I have a pitin my stomach, that means that
(17:14):
I'm hungry.
Your belief is that hungershould be resolved.
And so you go to the cabinetand get something.
And that getting somethingmakes you feel better both
emotionally and physically.
If you do that in isolation,that's the relational pieces,
all kind of tied together andinforming one another.
But if when you feel hungry, itdrives you to uh have a meal
with your family, the bio,psychosocial, spiritual
(17:37):
relationships that we associatethen with hunger become
something that meet ourrelational needs as well as our
physical needs instead of justour physical or emotional needs.
So kids are all of those thingstogether, but our tendency is
to break things down intocomponent parts and try to come
up with simplistic solutions.
And so uh when kids aremisbehaving at 3:30 on your
(17:59):
drive home from picking them upat school, we tend to view that
as a behavioral issue.
If they're 10 years old, thelikelihood is, or even if
they're 15 years old, thelikelihood is that they ate
lunch at 10:30 and now it's 3:30and they're tired from sitting
still and paying attention allday, and they're hungry.
So that what looks like abehavioral issue could be
resolved with peanut buttercrackers.
(18:19):
And so recognizing that all ofthese things influence each
other helps us see a child andsee the component parts as
influencing and informing oneanother to be able to represent
love and compassion across theirwhole self.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:33):
Do you see an over complication of parenting
approaches to navigating some ofthese simple things like I ate
lunch at 10:30 and also the morecomplex things that children
are going through, whether it'sa divorce or a death in the
family, things like that.
Do you see an overcomplicationof how parents are engaging in
(18:54):
working through those thingswith their children?
Dr. Seth Scott (18:56):
I think that we're flooded with information
all of the time.
And so it's difficult to knowwhat to do at any given moment
because it seems like there'salways more research to be done
and there's competing responsesfor those, right?
So there's, you know, fivesteps for this, seven steps for
this.
We want to address the wholebrainchild here, but we want to
make sure they get leafy greensand organic here.
(19:19):
And so I think because we haveso much information, it
paralyzes us in making anychoices because I think parents
are told that the wrong choicehas significant implications.
And I mean, one of the dangers,even in the past couple of
weeks, of the exploration of allright, well, what seems to
contribute to autism is there'sa danger in trying to identify
(19:41):
one thing in a complex systembecause it creates an aspect of
blame potentially for you didthis or you caused this.
If only I had done somethingdifferent in this moment.
And so I think that because welive in a society where there's
so much information, we feellike we should know better, but
there's competing informationand we have to make a decision
in any given moment.
I think the simplistic approachto parenting is we need to just
(20:03):
be a good enough parent.
We're not gonna be a greatparent, probably all the time,
and we're not gonna be the bestparent for our child at any
given moment.
We need to be a good parent,which means we are attentive to
our child's needs and we exhibitGod's love to them in as
consistent manner as we can byrepresenting God in their lives.
And that's gonna look likediscipline at times, that's
(20:25):
gonna look like grace and mercyat other times.
But in order to be able tofoster the identity of your
child, you need to know who youare in relationship to self and
God and others.
And I think that's where webreak down a lot of times.
And so parenting becomesespecially difficult if you
haven't dealt with your ownstuff.
So if you're unsure of who youare and you're still trying to
(20:48):
kind of use others or use thingsor use your child to give you
meaning and value and purpose,then you're not going to be able
to give from a place ofwholeness and completeness to
your child.
And then your child doesn'testablish their sense of self in
kind of attachment andacceptance.
And that just trickles downgeneration after generation.
And so parenting means that youknow you are loved by God and
(21:09):
you are able to then experiencethat love and express that love
to others in healthyrelationships and provide care
and support for your child fromthe safety of that relationship.
Mrs. Erin Kay (21:20):
As parents, we are whole people as well.
Just because we graduate fromhigh school or cross over the
threshold into adulting doesn'tmean that we are any less of a
whole person than we were whenwe were a child.
So, how can parents balancetheir emotional needs and even
their needs to be a whole personwhile also supporting their
(21:42):
children?
Dr. Seth Scott (21:42):
I think it's important.
So we think emotions begin withour expression of them, but
actually they begin inrecognizing that lots of things
contribute to the experience ofemotions and then the expression
of emotions.
So I have an analogy that I useof a reservoir and dam for
emotions, in that lots of eventscome in and build up flowing
upstream into our reservoir thatbuild up pressure behind the
(22:05):
wall of the dam.
And our ability to experienceand express emotions is
determined to some degree by ourinsight and awareness of what
we are experiencing, and thenour capacity to express and
control those emotions inappropriate ways to provide
outlets to power ourrelationships.
And so I think as society, andthen specifically as parents, we
(22:27):
lack awareness of our emotionalstates.
We're not aware of what's goingon inside of us until it's too
much, until it's more than wecan handle.
And then we end up kind ofexploding with the water going
over the top of the damn wallinstead of going through in
powered control.
And so one of the things thatas parents we need for our
emotional needs is we need to beable to be aware of what our
(22:48):
present emotional state is.
As I work with a lot of parentsin conduct issues, they'll say,
My kid goes from zero to 10.
And so no interventions work.
And I said, Well, actually,everybody goes through all of
those numbers, but we may not beaware that we're actually
starting at a six or a seven,not a zero, because we're we
don't have awareness of ourinternal state.
And so the work in working withkids is trying to help them be
(23:10):
aware of, all right, what areyou experiencing inside?
How does the sensation in yourbody influence your
interpretation of thatexperience to produce a belief
that informs an interpretationof emotion that we then express?
So kids have trouble doing thisbecause it's learned and
modeled from parents.
So as parents, we can be awareof all right, how has our day
impacted the level of water inour emotional reservoir?
(23:33):
So that when I get home and I'mtired and I'm cranky and I'm
hungry, and it's 5:30 and I'mtrying to have my kids do
homework and make dinner, and myspouse comes in the door, our
water reservoir is cresting atthe top.
And so that means that maybe werelease water earlier, we let
out emotions through effectiveexpression or practice or
physical exercise so that weknow that four o'clock to seven
(23:57):
o'clock time frame is gonna be aflood of lots more emotions.
And so I need to prepare myselfand have appropriate outlets to
exhibit and express thoseemotions in effective and
constructive ways.
But this is where I think God'sdesign for two parents and then
community and village is sonecessary because just like
growing up watching, you know,WWF wrestling, tag team,
(24:19):
hopefully in in parenting, infamilies, when you're
overwhelmed, exhaustedemotionally, physically,
relationally, spiritually, youcan tap out and tag somebody
else who's able to come infresh.
And so that's part of thenecessity of maintaining the
priority of your marriage as acouple as the primary
preventative support for raisinggood kids.
(24:40):
You have one another's back.
You're able to experience God'slove, you're able to express
God's love, you're able to feelseen and valued and heard so
that your emotional reservoir isregulated to then give more
than you're ever probablyimagined you're able to to your
kids in times of need becauseyou have someone else that's
there for you and hopefully lotsof people that are there for
(25:01):
you.
So, yeah, as parents, our ownemotional needs mean that we are
aware, we have insight andcapacity, and then we have
appropriate expressions andoutlets relationally to maintain
our own spiritual, emotional,relational help.
Mrs. Erin Kay (25:15):
It sounds like when we're parenting in some of
these hard places, whether it isthrough when my child is going
to have a cell phone and thosehard discussions that occur to
death in the family or someother kind of hardship in that
way, that the nuances ofparenting are different in the
situations, but the foundationalapproach is consistent.
(25:36):
Would you say that's true?
Dr. Seth Scott (25:38):
Yeah, I think that's a great summary.
Mrs. Erin Kay (25:39):
All right.
So, what can our listenersexpect in our next episode as we
continue this conversation?
Dr. Seth Scott (25:44):
I think we want to look at what are some
specific ways to buildresilience.
And then how do we recover fromhaving done things poorly?
All of us could have done, madebetter choices at particular
points, right?
We tend to take the shortcut.
So, you know, when you took theshortcut and let your kids,
because you needed emotionalspace, watch, you know, four
hours of blues, clues, whatever.
How do you recover from thatwhen they're habituated to
(26:06):
expect that shortcut, right?
How do we recover?
How do we improve?
You know, if you've beendivorced and you're single
parenting, how do you do that?
What does that look like?
We know what the ideal is, butwe know that we also don't live
in an ideal world.
And so I think that's part ofwhat we want to look at next.
Mrs. Erin Kay (26:20):
Great.
Thanks, listeners, and makesure that you subscribe so that
you can catch the next episode.
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Dateline NBC
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