People Need People

Episode Transcript
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Mrs. Erin Kay (00:27):
Welcome back to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
In this episode, we areentering into episode two in our
Parenting in the Hard Placesseries with Dr.
Seth Scott.
And Dr.
Scott, share with us just alittle bit about what we
highlighted in our firstepisode.

Dr. Seth Scott (00:43):
Yeah, so we looked at recognizing that
parenting is hard.
And so just by itself, it's ahard place.
But the complexity of the worldthat we live in and different
situations like divorce, loss,technology amplify the
difficulty of the developmentalstages and developmental crises
we face naturally.
And that part of the solutionto that is recognizing that

(01:04):
while there's lots of noise outthere, lots of information, the
trying to address the wholechild of the kid, right?
In body, soul, spiritrelationship, and knowing that
by basking in God's loveyourself and experiencing God's
love across your whole personand caring for your whole person
emotionally, relationally,socially, biologically,

(01:24):
spiritually, you're then able tobe in a place to give and care
for your child in the midst ofthese hard places.

So, what do you think is the most important
mindset shift that parents needto make when they're facing
these various challenges?

I think we live in a society that tends to cause
us to think that we need to bethe sole solution or that we are
fully responsible for thesolution while at the same time
blaming others or situations forthe problem.
And I think actually both ofthose are incorrect, right?
We exist in community.
We need community, we needrelationships.

(02:00):
And so we can build intocommunity and relationship
opportunities for support andhelp and encouragement while
also maybe taking moreresponsibility for some of the
situations we're in.
So it's the both end of thoseelements to say we need one
another, and that in thedifficulty of pursuing others,

(02:20):
it's going to create its ownproblems.
But we have to be careful notto shortcut into
self-protection, individuation,isolation.

In your work with families and in your research,
have you discovered or leaned onany particular principles that
apply across different types ofhard places?

One of my favorite authors that my mom
gave to me when I was firststarted parenting my two kids by
Tim Kimmel called Grace-BasedParenting.
And his model, this recognitionthat because we live in a
fallen world and are fallenourselves, we're going to make
mistakes.
And our own struggles,insecurities, family of origin,
perspectives, and expectationsdistort and adjust us.

(03:01):
And so we need to be quick toacknowledge our need and
dependence on God and others andour ability to start over
quickly, right?
To experience grace and toexpress grace in our
relationship with others and notkind of hold things over long
periods of time.
So both for ourselves and forothers, right?
So we messed up, right?
Being able to experience God'sgrace and forgiveness and

(03:25):
exhibit and express God's graceand forgiveness to others to
keep short accounts in ourcapacity to move forward in
relationship.

So let's get down to some more specifics.
And one of the common thingsthat we can see, as you know,
you talked about in the previousepisode with divorce and how
divorce rates are a little bithigher than they were in the 70s
and before.
So what approaches have youfound to be most effective for
co-parenting after a separationor divorce?

I think even in when families are together, kids
are going to try to pit parentsagainst each other to find the
answer that they want.
That's kind of our sin naturegenerally.
In divorce and separation, theyknow that there's cracks in the
parental relationship and theability for the parents to kind
of be on the same page in theirparenting perspectives.
And so one of the mostimportant things that we can do

(04:13):
that we do clinically is try tocreate consistency and cohesion
in rules and expectations acrossthe different environments and
make those explicit.
And so every family has rulesand expectations, but most of
the time it's implicit andunconscious or unexpressed.
And so everyone in the systemkind of knows what's allowed or

(04:33):
not allowed.
But when it goes unexpressed,it's hard to then make choice
for following it and then theconsequence.
So clinically, one of the firstthings we do is we create
consistency in thoseexpectations and house rules and
try to apply it across bothenvironments and then agree in
advance what the consequencesare for not following through on
those expectations or rules.

(04:54):
So that in the moment theparent doesn't have to try to
come up with a consequencebecause in the moment, our
consequence will either be toosevere or too light.
And neither of those will beeffective at encouraging growth
and formation and discipleshipwith our kids.
And so it's the ability to kindof work in spite of the
parental relationship to createconsistency in their

(05:14):
environments so that kids canfeel safe at least in knowing
what to expect and how tobehave.

When it comes to parenting through grief or after
a family loss, what strategieshelp children to process their
emotions in healthy ways?

I think we often expect kids to grieve in the
same way that we do in, youknow, sadness and emotion in
lots of emotions, whereas kidsoften don't have the same access
to the experience of emotions.
And they're still maybe theyprocess slower and differently.
If they're young children, theyoften process everything
through play.
They try it out.

(05:50):
That's why we see young kidsplaying house or playing
princess or playing cowboy.
Like they're they're trying outadult roles to know where they
fit.
And it creates a goodopportunity for us to kind of
hear and see their perspectiveof our roles, which is kind of
interesting.
So in grief and loss, it's theopportunity to kind of give them
space to process an experienceto allow a wide range of

(06:13):
emotions from anger to sadnesswithout discipline necessarily
tied to appropriate levels ofexpression, but consistency in
your availability to allow themto experience and express their
emotions and just be seen,valued, and heard, as well as
for parents to, I think ourtendency, especially in loss, is

(06:35):
to hide our emotionalexpression from children because
we don't want to overwhelm themor we don't want to make them
feel sad.
But then that teaches them thatsadness or overwhelming
emotions aren't okay to express.
I think traditionally we'velike kept kids from things like
a funeral service because theydon't really seem to understand
anyway.
But then that limits theirexperienced modeling and

(06:55):
expression of emotions in grief.
And so I think part of thestrategy is having kids hear
about the emotions that peopleare experiencing, about talking
about the person who was lost orwho left and let them kind of
express their relationship, whatthey remember, what they
understand, to give them anoutlet for exploring and kind of

(07:16):
sorting the differences andemotions that they have.

At Ben Lippen, we do have some families that have
one child, but we also have alot of families that have
multiple children, sometimesfive or six different children.
What can parents expect whenthey are entering into a season
of grief and loss within theirfamily unit across the
experience of their childrenwhen it comes to grief?

It is fascinating, both by age and
just by temperament, howeveryone experiences and
expresses grief, sadness, joy,excitement differently.
And so one of the things that Ialways found helpful clinically
is doing a gram, which is apicture of the family.
It lets me explain to parentsthe difference in levels between
parents and kids.

(08:01):
And so I think in ourcontemporary world, parents are
quicker to jump in and want tointervene to protect kids from
emotions, from difficultsituations.
And that actually reduces theircapacity, their muscle
building, their resiliency ofemotions, of relationship.
And so with multiple kids,they're all going to experience
and express loss, grief,relationships differently.

(08:22):
And in some ways, letting thekids learn from one another and
support and encourage oneanother in that range of
experience is going to be reallybeneficial for them without us
needing to necessarily interveneand either consciously or
unconsciously say what types ofemotions or types of expressions
are appropriate because we'rein what we do and what we don't
do, we're constantly teachingsocial norms and expectations.

(08:45):
And so in many ways, it'sallowing the kids across because
they haven't maybe learned thecultural or family norms.
And so they'll just expresswhat they're experiencing, which
gives a wider range maybe thanwhat we've been habituated to as
adults.

When a family is dealing with the aftermath of
foices, whether that is byparents or children, how can
trust and stability be rebuiltin these relationships?

I think one of the most important things that a
parent can say to anotherparent and to their child is,
I'm sorry, I was wrong.
Please forgive me.
How can I make this up to you?
And being able to modelquickness and forgiveness and
acknowledgement of error becausewe're all fallen and we all
continue in the fight againstsin as we as we desire for the

(09:32):
spirit to live in us, modelingthat is going to be important.
And then also modeling theability to trust in dependence
on God for the results.
C.S.
Lewis once said that we're alltime travelers, but we're all we
can only impact the future,right?
We're all moving forward.
And so that's an importantperspective, I think, that we
have as well is that we canalways dwell in the past and

(09:54):
beat ourselves up over the knowntrajectory now of past choices.
The problem is we don't knowall of the trajectories of
alternative choices.
And so we need to be quick toacknowledge maybe the
consequences of the choices thatwe've made and how it's led us
here today.
But we don't know what theconsequences of alternative
choices would have been.
And so I think we're quick toacknowledge this was not the

(10:16):
right choice.
Here's how I know it was thewrong choice.
And even maybe expressing notwith lots of detail, but helping
your kids learn from yourmistakes so that they don't have
to repeat them if possible, butalso not dwelling on those
mistakes so that your identityis as a saint in Christ moving
towards restoration and able tolive in the unity and hope of

(10:37):
redemption and not in theperpetual brokenness of the
fall.

That speaks to the next question about
transparency.
And how transparent shouldparents be about their own
struggles, whether it's they'vemade a poor choice or they're
just struggling with a divorceor a death in a family.
How transparent should parentsbe?

That's a hard question.
I think there's a lot offactors, right?
The developmental age of thechild.
I think it's similar to incounseling.
I train my students to say weneed an appropriate level of
emotion, right?
So if your client is sittingthere and is crying and is
really struggling, if you'resitting there kind of stoically
checking your nails, like that'snot going to build
relationship.
If you're crying harder thanthe client, that's also not

(11:20):
going to be beneficial for therelationship.
And so part of what we want tobe able to do as parents is
recognize all right, well, whatis the kind of perspective and
understanding and capacity ofour child at this stage?
Because they shouldn't carryour emotions and our emotional
needs.
We do it that on our plane withour peers, with those above us

(11:42):
and those on our plane, not tothose below us as children.
But we want to be able to behonest and exhibit the
experiences that we have.
We want them to see us trustingour spouse, trusting our
friends with hard things, sothat they learn that they can do
that as well and that they cantrust us.
We don't need to trust themwith those things.
And so it's recognizing, Ithink, if you can see those, the

(12:05):
planes of kind of a genogram isto say we want to model for our
kids what healthy dependence onGod looks like.
And so maybe we say, yeah,we're struggling financially
this month, and let's praytogether that God will provide
for what we need, but maybeprotect them from all right,
well, here's the bills.
What do you think we should do?
Right.
So looking at at big pictureaspects and as an opportunity to

(12:28):
direct them towards the rightresponse, not as a dwelling on
the problem, but an opportunityto direct towards how do we live
in the solution?

Yes, how do we live in the solution?
And that ties right back intothe C.S.
Lewis quote that you mentioned.
So when we're in these hardplaces, how can parents create
safe spaces for children to beable to express their feelings
about family challenges?

I think we model that in the opportunities for
relationships that we have,right?
So if you go on a field trip, Ithink five kids to one adult is
like the, I think, the normalcount, right?
And then you have like yourbuddy system and everything.
The literature that we've seentoo is in marriage, you need
five positives for everyonenegative.
In parenting, you need fivepositives for everyone negative.
The literature that I've seenwith raising kids is your kids

(13:11):
need five adults that see themand know them and value them,
that they can rely on.
And the best way to get thoseadults is that there are peers
as adults.
There are friends that theadvice that someone that they go
to that they would get fromthem would be consistent with
what we'd want from them.
And so I think that part ofthis space is that they also

(13:32):
have their own friends and peersthat they can experience and
exhibit emotions without ushaving to necessarily sweep in
or address it, but that we putparameters on experiencing and
expressing emotion within thescope of the truth of the
gospel.
And so, even, you know, we tendto focus on Philippians 4 and
use it as somewhat as a bludgeonof well, don't be anxious, just

(13:56):
kind of quickly shut that offand think better, think
positive.
And we end up being likePollyanna-ish about it a little
bit.
But the reason that we are ableto dwell on what is true, pure,
and right is becausePhilippians 4.8 says that the
Lord is near, the Lord is athand.
And so the reason that we don'thave to dwell in anxiety is
because, like the disciples inthe boat, Jesus is there, right?

(14:18):
So when the storms arehappening, the emotions that we
experience are tempered by ourwillingness to experience the
presence of the Lord.
And so with our kids, as theyexperience emotions, we want
them to be able to express andexperience the range of
emotions, but we want to filterthe experience of those emotions
through the truth of ourpresence as parents, that you
don't have to be anxious aboutthat thing, like we're here to

(14:40):
care for that, and be able toprovide a kind of a corrective
interpretation of the emotionwithout limiting the emotion
itself, because they'll learncorrect interpretation by the
safety of being able to exhibitthe emotion.
But that means that we alsohave to then maintain those
correct beliefs andinterpretations ourselves and
live in alignment with them.
And so the space for that is wegive them space with peers, we

(15:02):
give them space with siblings,we talk about emotions and train
them in the language ofemotions, seven primary
emotions, right?
We train them in the languageof that, and then we train them
in the process of interpretingwhat they're feeling
sensationally, physiologically,to how they make sense of that,
to then be able to express it.
But there's appropriate ways toexpress it in inappropriate

(15:24):
ways.
So you can feel angry aboutsomething, but exhibiting that
through breaking something orhurting someone is inappropriate
expression of anger.
Anger is not the problem.
It's the way that you'reexhibiting that.
And so we want to, throughregular practice, teach them the
language of emotion and connectit to the experience so that we
can model and practiceappropriate expression.

What types of professional support do you
recommend for families who needadditional support?

I'm reading a really good book right now on
the role of the church in kindof filling the gap.
There's not enough professionalcounselors.
And as someone who trainsprofessional counselors, not
everyone needs to be aprofessional counselor.
And so part of the role ofsupport is saying people need
people.
And while some issues ofcomplex trauma or unresolved

(16:14):
emotion may benefit fromprofessional support, we need
people that see us, that valueus, and that know us.
And so one of the things thatthis book by Jim Sells is
addressing is that lots ofpeople in the body of Christ can
just be present and listen,right?
So professional support haslevels, right?
We need those five adults thatsee our kids, that love them

(16:37):
like we do, that know them.
We need them to have peers thatallow them to kind of practice
differing opinions and conflictresolution.
We need medical professionalsthat are able to evaluate,
right, are there biologicalissues that are going on?
But when we get to clinical,the way that we would know that
it's clinical versusnon-clinical is usually if their

(16:58):
ability to move forward in thepresent and future is impaired
by something that's unresolvedin the past.
And if you have to go backwardsto resolve some impediment,
usually that would be a clinicalcounseling lens, right?
If they just get if they'restuck in some way, or if their
experience of emotion seemsbeyond their capacity to
experience and express it,either because they don't have

(17:19):
the language for it, or there'ssome limitation in their
capacity to understand orexpress in a learning limitation
or intellectual limitation orsignificant relational trauma.
Those are all things that kindof are in the past that are
influencing their present toimpair their future.
That would be a professionalscope.

What resources have you found to be most
helpful for parents who arenavigating difficult
circumstances?

I think that in our world today, there's very
few social communities outsidethe church, right?
And as I work with clients,it's really hard if they're not
Christians to find outlets forrelationship.
And so one of the bestcommunity supports is your peers
and those older than you whohave journeyed ahead of you in
the body of Christ to buildrelationship, to risk the

(18:07):
vulnerability of being known andproviding opportunity.
And so, you know, it can gofrom the level of doing a
parenting book or trainingtogether with a group of people
so that you can be supported,reading through scripture with
other people in a small group,right?
So those supports seem to bemost effective to make us not
feel isolated and alone, to giveus the space to express and

(18:30):
experience frustrations, hardspaces, and to just practically
provide hopefully relationalsupport so that when you're
running to and fro and can't bein two places at once, you have
someone that's willing to stepin, right?
And watch your kids and washyour laundry.
And, you know, like we needthose aspects of community that
I think for most in our kind ofmobile environment where we move

(18:52):
all around and we aren't maybeclose to biological family, is
going to come from the church.
Interestingly, that the sayingthat we often use blood is
thicker than water, whichassumes that you know the
biological family is strongerthan whatever water would be, is
part of a larger saying thathas a reverse meaning, which is
the blood of the new covenant isthicker than the water of
birth, which is an early churchsaying that says the body of

(19:16):
Christ and the relationshipsthat we establish are more
important than our biologicalrelationships.
And we need to live in thatreality.
That's what Jesus said in theGospels when they come looking
for him.
And he says, Your mother andbrother and sisters are looking
for you.
And Jesus says, Who are mymother and brother and sisters?
But those who do the will of myfather in heaven.
And so, as followers of Christ,our best community supports and

(19:37):
our best opportunity to supportothers who are in the stage
that maybe we were in is goingto be the body of Christ, too,
as a maybe someone who's aboutto be empty-nested, right?
Be able to support parents withyoung kids and give them a
break, give them a night outwhere you don't have to spend,
you know, a hundred dollars forbabysitters, right?
It's being able to support andencourage and interact with one

(19:58):
another and live according tothe whole body, right?
According to that community.

What final thoughts or advice would you
like to leave with our listenersto include hope?
What hope do we have when weare parenting through a crisis?

I think the present situation always seems
most immediate and as ourpriority and an urgent.
But if we look back throughwhatever was most urgent at the
moment, we often realize that itprobably wasn't as dire as we
thought it was, right?
So objects in our mirrors arecloser than they appear in the

(20:32):
immediacy of the moment, beingable to surround yourself by
people who can see yoursituation from a variety of
perspectives will help us maybesee it with greater perspective.
So I would encourage people tobe in community because with
others, we're able to both carrymore and bear more, but also to
rest more effectively.

(20:53):
And I think the hope is thatGod loves us and God loves our
kids more than we do, and he issovereign over all things.
And he, you know, we see inscripture really good parents
that have really good kids, andthat's kind of our hope.
But we also see really badparents who have really good
kids and really good parents whohave really bad kids.
And so ultimately we we rest inGod's sufficiency and

(21:16):
sovereignty and his love for us,and we seek as much as possible
to love him with our whole selfand love others as the
expression of that whole self.

Thank you for that.
If our listeners have morequestions or would like to get
in touch with you, what is thebest way for them to do so?

They can email me, Seth S-E-T-H period
S-C-O-T-T, Seth period scott atCIU.edu.
They can swing by my office atColumbia International
University.
They can take classes in themaster's or clinical counseling
or the PhD in counseloreducation and kind of take what
they've learned and are learningand want to train and teach
others.
Any of those are ways they canmake in touch with me.

Great.
Thank you so much.
And thank you to our listeners.
And we look forward to seeingyou on the next episode of the
BidLip and Podcast.

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