January 23, 2025 • 17 mins
Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Dr. Ben Mathew, a respected figure in counseling and theology, as we navigate the complex intersection of The Gospel and race at Ben Lippen School. Discover how Dr. Mathew’s multicultural upbringing shapes his unique approach to these sensitive discussions, emphasizing the critical role of heart posture and personal reflection. Learn how grounding our conversations in biblical truth, specifically Jude 3, can be a powerful unifying force, steering us away from political divides and towards a faith-driven dialogue.
We explore the delicate balance between holding strong convictions and remaining adaptable, drawing inspiration from biblical figures like Jude and Paul. Through engaging metaphors, such as comparing our heart posture to Gumby and Stretch Armstrong, we illustrate the importance of staying grounded while being flexible. We uncover personal and communal growth opportunities by examining our initial reactions and encouraging honest self-reflection. This episode is a call to embrace God’s invitation to grow beyond our current state, aligning with the sanctification journey.
Click here to share your questions about this episode with us. We will review responses to cover in an upcoming recording
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:02):
Welcome to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
I am excited to have the firstepisode in our series, our new
series that we're introducingabout The Gospel and race
discussions at Ben Lippen School.
And, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce to you our
guest expert, Dr.
Ben Mathew.
How are you doing today?
Dr. Ben Mathew (00:22):
I'm doing great, Erin, great to be with you.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:27):
Thank you All right.
So a little bit about Dr Mathew.
So, with his family from Indiaand being born and raised in
Canada, Ben has alwaysappreciated the integration of
cultures and ideas and wasblessed to be involved in
several ministries in his homechurch and community.
With degrees in counseling,psychology and theology, Ben
also enjoys the integration andcollaboration of various
(00:48):
academic disciplines.
He earned his bachelor's degreein biblical studies from Emmaus
Bible College and continued hisgraduate work at Dallas
Theological Seminary, earning anMA in counseling and a PhD in
psychology from North CentralUniversity.
Ben worked in the Dallas areafor several years in private
(01:09):
practice and at the nationallyknown Minrith Clinic,
specializing in adolescent rehaband treatment of mental health
issues.
For the past two decades, Benhas been involved in higher
education, helping to developstudents and others to think
critically and holisticallyabout their faith, profession
and care for others.
He served for over 20 years atEmmaus Bible College in various
(01:33):
positions, most recently as achair of the health service
department and professor in thecounseling psychology program.
Ben is a board-cert certifiedcounselor in CC and currently
serves as a professor ofclinical counseling in the
graduate counseling programs MAand PhD at Columbia
International University.
(01:54):
He also maintains a smallcounseling practice as a
licensed professional counselorand supervisor in South Carolina
, where he lives with his wife,Jenna, and their four children.
We're so thankful to have youand to have you as a resource
here at Ben Lippen.
You're literally right herebecause we share campus, so
(02:14):
we're just so thankful to haveyour expertise in this kind of a
hot topic, to be able to tie itback to a Biblical worldview
and how we can implement some ofthese things.
So I'm sure our listeners arejust Erin, well, where is this
conversation going to go andwhat is the vein that we're
going to be in?
So let's just kind of dive in.
So in this first episode wewant to talk about our posture
(02:38):
on the topic of race, so I'mjust going to kind of turn it
over to you and your expertise.
Dr. Ben Mathew (02:42):
Yeah, no, I appreciate this, Erin, and I
really do appreciate the desireof Ben Lippen to kind of step
into it.
You said it perfectly this is atopic that's rife with a lot of
opinion and a lot ofpolarization, and somewhat
understandably, I get that.
I think our culture tends toprovide a lot of heat and not a
(03:05):
lot of light when it comes tothese issues, and so we kind of
encamp ourselves into one sideor the other.
And so I think, understandably,some people that are listening
to this podcast, even seeing thetitle come up on their screen,
might go, oh my, what's BenLippen getting into, and why are
they getting into it?
All these questions, I'm sure,are coming up because our
(03:26):
culture really wants to push thepolarization of it.
So, as much as we need to getinto some of the specifics, we
need to talk some biblicaltheology, we need to talk about
some practical elements.
Before we kind of dive into allthat, I always try to think
about what I refer to as myheart posture, knowing that I'm
(03:49):
not unbiased, knowing that Ialready have certain
perspectives when I'm challenged, when I'm engaging with areas
that I may be unfamiliar with.
First thing I need to often dobefore I get into the topic is
address my heart and be willingto say, okay, what areas do I
need to submit myself to theLord and respond to with the
Holy Spirit?
That's my hope with this firstepisode.
Before we get into the issues,before we even kind of get into
(04:12):
some of the responses that wemay have, my hope is that we can
kind of start thinking about aheart posture so that we can get
into the issues, so we don'tmiss, I think, what God's Word
and what we here at Ben LippenSchool can be doing in this
important topic.
So that's kind of one of theareas I wanted to start with
with you in this first episode.
Mrs. Erin Kay (04:32):
Yeah, I agree with that.
It's important to understandhow we're created, why we're
created, the way that we are asindividuals and as a collective,
but also where some of theseimplicit biases lie within us,
and you know that discussion of.
Are our biases bad or are theyan opportunity for us to examine
posture?
So what is your?
(04:53):
What are your thoughts on heartposture?
Dr. Ben Mathew (04:55):
Like I said, a really important place to start,
maybe kind of alleviate kind ofconcerns on both sides.
One of the things that I'mwanting to ensure is that we are
wanting to, first and foremost,speak out of an authority of
God's word, out of a convictionof God's truth.
In no way is this intended tobe a political podcast.
This is not intending to be.
(05:16):
Hey, this is what this sidesays, or that side says.
We want to ground this first inGod's truth.
So I often think of a passagelike in Jude 3, this little
epistle right before the book ofRevelation, where he says
although I was very eager towrite to you about our common
salvation, I found it necessaryto write appealing to you to
contend for the faith that wasonce for all delivered to the
(05:38):
saints.
I look at that.
That's a great passage, thislittle powerful epistle where
Jude is wanting to say, firstand foremost, the reason we're
talking and engaging with theseideas is because The Gospel
unites us.
And because The Gospel unitesus, it's The Gospel that informs
our continued engagement inwhatever issue, whether it be
race, whether it be sexuality,whether it be politics, whatever
(06:02):
topic we may come across, thehope is that we're first coming
out of a point of biblicalconviction that we can contend
for the faith that is oncedelivered to the saints.
And that's I want to kind ofhopefully let the hearers of
this podcast understand that'swhere we want to start from.
We're not looking to be woke,we're not looking to be cutting
edge or culturally.
(06:23):
You know, with it Our desirefirst and foremost and I know
this of Ben Lippen, I know thisof where I'm at at CIU we want
the authority of God's word tolead our discussions, and so to
me I think that's reallyimportant.
Now, hopefully, the listenersof this podcast will assess that
truth or not.
I'm hoping I can kind ofshowcase that, but I think, like
(06:44):
the Bereans in the book of Acts, it's your job to make sure
that assessment is true.
We're hoping we've come out ofa conviction of God's truth to
contend for it earnestly andletting that be our kind of
North Star in some of thesediscussions.
On the other side, if I cankind of maybe say it, on kind of
two sides of the same coin, Ido want us to recognize we have
an opportunity here, I think, tohold conviction with one hand
(07:09):
and be flexible with the other.
And the passage that I oftenthink about for that is the
Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9.
Corinthians is this great bookthat they're dealing with so
many different issues and Paul'strying to constantly bring them
back to The Gospel as itinforms the Lord's Supper, or
marriage, or sexuality orwhatever.
And there's this one contextwhere he's talking about
cultural engagement, and wewon't get into all the details
(07:30):
of it, but one of the things hesays in 1 Corinthians, chapter 9
, let me read some of thepassage and it kind of informs
what I'm talking about.
For though I am free from all,I've made myself a servant to
all that I might win more ofthem.
To the Jews I become a Jew inorder to win Jews.
To those under the law, Ibecame as one under the law that
I might win those who are underthe law.
To those outside the law, Ibecome as one outside the law
(07:53):
that I might win those outsidethe law.
To the weak I become weak thatI might win the weak.
I become all things to allpeople that by all means I might
save some.
I do it for the sake of TheGospel.
Now I read a verse like that.
I think there's no question Paulis a passionate man for The
Gospel.
In the book of Galatians, whenhe sees Peter doing things that
(08:14):
are not in keeping, he rebukeshim straight to his face, as he
does the Galatian church ingeneral.
But in this passage, eventhough he's firmly committed to
The Gospel, he's also willing tobe flexible.
Right, like even the first lineto the Jews I've become a Jew,
which is such an almost funnysounding statement.
I've become a Jew, which issuch an almost funny sounding
statement.
How does a man who is already aJew become a Jew to reach Jews?
(08:36):
It seems like an antitheticalkind of notion, but I think what
Paul is saying is that his if Ican use this term his Jewness
was something he can use and notuse, because it wasn't his
defining reality, it wasn't themost important thing to him.
But he'll use it, he'll engagewith it if it helps advance The
Gospel, similarly to those whoaren't Jewish, those who, as he
(08:59):
says, are outside of the law.
If he's with Greeks, he's goingto be a little more Greek.
If he's with weak, if he's withthose outside inside, he's
willing to have a flexibility inthe contexts he's in in order
to help people see andunderstand The Gospel of Jesus
Christ.
He has this conviction that Ithink Jude is talking about Let
us contend earnestly for thefaith.
(09:21):
And yet he has a flexibilitywhere he's willing to move into
different spaces and reach themwhere they're at.
And I look at that and Irealize, yeah, I want to have
conviction and not be just wokeor culturally relevant, but nor
do I want to be indifferent tothese issues.
Paul was willing to recognizethe cultural, religious,
(09:42):
socioeconomic, like one of them.
He talks about how he does this, all for the sake of The Gospel
.
I want to have both thosepostures.
I want to be a person ofconviction, no-transcript,
(10:16):
especially as relates tosomething that's so polarizing.
That, to me, is, I think, wherewe need to start when it comes
to this heart posture idea.
Mrs. Erin Kay (10:24):
And what's coming to mind when you're talking
about this and I'm dating myselfa little bit here, but Gumby,
or that old doll.
Stretch Armstrong or InspectorGadget right.
Like the molecules that createGumby and Stretch Armstrong,
they don't change, but theirflexibility allows them to reach
out and do more.
Dr. Ben Mathew (10:42):
Gumby's still Gumby, even when you pull on
them.
Mrs. Erin Kay (10:44):
Exactly, exactly, and we are still who God
designed us to be.
And you know, something elsethat's coming to mind too is,
you know, having the heartposture is having a hardened
heart, and sometimes we realizeit, we recognize it and maybe we
don't want to change it, or wedo want to change it, or
sometimes we don't even realizeit.
So what are some steps to kindof examining our hearts and
(11:06):
being open and willing to beokay with where we are?
Dr. Ben Mathew (11:10):
Yeah, that's great, great question.
I think one of the first thingsis actually quite practical.
Even as some of you saw thetitle of this podcast on your
phone or started hearing thiscome up on your device, ask
yourself the question what wasmy first response?
What was my first reaction tohearing that Ben Lippen School
(11:30):
is doing a podcast on racialissues?
Was it?
Oh?
I can't believe they're goingwoke.
Was it?
Oh?
This is amazing.
Finally they're doing it.
Or was it?
Oh?
They're going to totally messthis up?
They have no idea what they'retalking about and I don't want
to assume that that's a right orwrong response.
Please understand, I'm notlooking to judge your response,
(11:52):
but I am hopeful that, one,you'll be willing to look back
and ask yourself what was yourresponse.
And two, to consider is thatresponse holding you back from
engaging?
Now, again, I think theresponse is somewhat
understandable given our currentclimate experiences.
Again, I don't want to assumethat the response is wrong, but
(12:13):
to what degree is it alreadymaybe putting up some barriers
of engagement?
One of the things I often sayfor myself, if not for my
students and clients that I workwith.
First step is admitting.
Next step is dealing.
And how do we now start dealingwith those barriers that may be
coming up?
For me, that's kind of whatwe're going to be getting into
(12:33):
with some of this discussion ona biblical theology of race.
I'm hopeful that we'll let TheGospel, the word of God, inform
and start maybe pulling downsome of those barriers that
we've developed.
But for me, yeah, it always kindof comes back to one admit and
now start to deal in some honestways.
Part of that might be talkingto somebody about it too, right?
(12:56):
I think one of the I know forme, one of the biggest and most
impactful ways I grow and learnis just talking to others.
Let's be honest, this is atopic that sometimes people are
a little nervous to even engagewith, and so I recognize maybe
some of the awkwardness orhesitation.
But I think just getting it outsometimes in itself can be such
(13:17):
a helpful means of betterunderstanding our response and
then asking okay, what can I doto maybe start removing some of
those barriers to furtherengaging?
Mrs. Erin Kay (13:25):
Yeah, and it's our intention behind sharing
what's in our heart.
Dr. Ben Mathew (13:30):
Yeah, right, right that, hopefully that gives
us a we're not looking to fight, we're not looking to okay, I'm
going to put this person intheir place kind of idea.
But it's truly asking if webelieve that we're all on a
growth journey, what wetheologically called
sanctification.
There's.
Every area of my life needsimprovement, every area, and so
if this is one area that you'rehearing and you're thinking I
(13:53):
got this one figured out, mightI suggest that's probably a area
you need to work on, because weall are growing until the Lord
takes us to glory.
Mrs. Erin Kay (14:00):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And something else that'scoming to mind as you're talking
is God wants us to come just aswe are, whatever our heart
posture is, he wants us to comeand be open with him.
Dr. Ben Mathew (14:11):
That's a great point and maybe to kind of even
add to that he wants us to comeas we are, but not stay as we
are.
Mrs. Erin Kay (14:16):
Yes.
Dr. Ben Mathew (14:17):
Because I think both are.
That's a great point, Erin.
I think both are so important.
You don't have to get yourselfall figured out and then come to
God.
God's like no, no, no, no.
Just like the prodigal son.
You just need to turn in all ofyour brokenness and God, the
father, is waiting for you.
And yet that story in Luke 15indicates the father is so
thankful to receive the son inhis brokenness, but then he puts
(14:39):
a ring on his finger, a robe onhis back, sandals.
He doesn't leave him in hisbrokenness.
Come as you are, but the fatherloves you too much to leave you
as you are.
Perhaps this may be one of thoseareas that you recognize.
You're okay.
I need to grow, I need todevelop.
I need to maybe admit somebrokenness in this area, but
come with hope, knowing theFather wants to do something
(15:00):
here.
And I think, in a communitylike Ben Lippen, where that's
one of our goals right, we arelooking to glorify God from a
biblical worldview, so that ourstudents can grow in every sense
of the word, and I think that'sa large reason why parents and
family members send their kidsto Ben Lippen, because they want
that for their kids, but theymost definitely want to see that
(15:22):
in their families as well.
Mrs. Erin Kay (15:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, listeners, we're not justgoing to leave you hanging here.
We're going to.
This is going to be an ongoingseries and we've broken it up
into bite-sized chunks so thatit's not overwhelming.
And this is just theintroduction to it, so that you
can come as you are.
So what are your suggestionsfor?
You know, you mentioned oneabout you know what is my first
(15:45):
response and kind of examiningheart posture but what are some
really solid ways that ourlisteners can prepare for the
rest of this series?
Dr. Ben Mathew (15:54):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question.
Yeah, we already kind ofmentioned the.
In light of the title, in lightof the podcast topic, what's
your first response?
Maybe starting to identify someof those initial engagements.
Also Erin is that then perhapsputting up some barriers?
Are you finding yourselfresistant just because of the
topic and some of theexperiences or ways you've
(16:15):
engaged?
And then I think, verypractically, to try to have some
of these conversations withpeople you trust, find some
people in your community, inyour family, where you can start
asking those questions,admitting some of those
realities, to what degree youcan be part of that conversation
with others, I think could bereally helpful and asking.
I think one area particularlyfor me is asking the Lord to
(16:39):
help my heart and let that thenguide my mind.
If my heart is filled with TheGospel, my mind will be willing
to engage with God's truth.
I think what Paul says in 2Timothy this is kind of coming
near the end of Paul's life,he's kind of going to be dealing
with execution and so he'ssomewhat reflective on the life
the Lord has led him into ashe's sitting there in jail and
(17:00):
he says the Lord's servant thisis in 2 Timothy 2, the Lord's
servant must not be quarrelsome,but kind to only those we agree
with is not what the text says.
Just to be clear, I'mintentionally misreading it
there.
Mrs. Erin Kay (17:13):
Let me read it in the right way then.
Dr. Ben Mathew (17:14):
The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome
but kind to everyone.
If your first response, if myfirst response, is this is the
topic and those are the peopleI'm against, again, I.
If my first response is this isthe topic and those are the
people I'm against, again, Iunderstand.
I want to give space for thefrustrations and the concerns
that I think are legitimate whenit comes to these areas, but if
my first response is how can Ibeat these other people down?
How can I win, how can I ownthe other side, as it were?
(17:35):
If that's my first response, Iam not in keeping with the
commands of scripture.
Being kind to everyone and I'mnot a Greek scholar, but I'm
pretty sure the Greek foreveryone there means everyone
agree with them or not.
The best way I can startengaging, if not in my own life,
in my own community, at BenLippen, is to start letting my
responses be honest, talking toothers and letting my engagement
(17:58):
be a winsome engagement, and Ithink that's a good place to
start, in terms of our postureof the heart at least.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:04):
That's great.
Thank you so much for that.
So this series is going to be alittle bit different than the
one that we did with ChrisMcKenna, with Protect Young Eyes
, in that Dr Mathew and I we arerecording four episodes and
then we're leaving the lastepisode, not recorded just yet,
because we want to open thefloor to our listeners, to be
able to have this open dialogueand to ask questions and to just
(18:26):
let us know how you're feelingas we navigate through this.
So in our show notes, you willfind a link to a form that you
can fill out where you can askyour questions about what we
talked about today, and DrMathew and I we are going to
review them and we will have alittle questions, concerns and
comments where you get to have avoice in this.
(18:46):
So please fill that out and letus know if there's anything
that we can do to help supportyou with this journey.
Dr. Ben Mathew (18:52):
Yeah, that's a great reminder, Erin.
I think we want to provide someengagement.
In no ways do we have all theanswers, but I think that's part
of the joy of working togetheris having some dialogue and then
keeping to go back to scriptureso we can find more answers in
God's truth.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:07):
Absolutely, Dr Mathew.
If anyone wants to get in touchwith you, what's the best way?
Dr. Ben Mathew (19:11):
Yeah, I'm a professor at Columbia
International University and soI'm not nearly as cool as
everyone else with Instagram andall the other social media, so
email is just going to be theeasiest way to contact me.
B-e-n dot M-A-T-H-E-W at C-I-Udot E-D-U.
My kids are quick to remind meI was born in the 1900s, so I'm
pretty old.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:32):
So, anyway, well, thank you so much for being
here with us today, and we willsee everyone on our next episode
.
Welcome to another episode of the Ben
Lippen Podcast.
I am excited to have the firstepisode in our series, our new
series that we're introducingabout The Gospel and race
discussions at Ben Lippen School.
And, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce to you our
guest expert, Dr.
Ben Mathew.
How are you doing today?
Dr. Ben Mathew (00:22):
I'm doing great, Erin, great to be with you.
Mrs. Erin Kay (00:27):
Thank you All right.
So a little bit about Dr Mathew.
So, with his family from Indiaand being born and raised in
Canada, Ben has alwaysappreciated the integration of
cultures and ideas and wasblessed to be involved in
several ministries in his homechurch and community.
With degrees in counseling,psychology and theology, Ben
also enjoys the integration andcollaboration of various
(00:48):
academic disciplines.
He earned his bachelor's degreein biblical studies from Emmaus
Bible College and continued hisgraduate work at Dallas
Theological Seminary, earning anMA in counseling and a PhD in
psychology from North CentralUniversity.
Ben worked in the Dallas areafor several years in private
(01:09):
practice and at the nationallyknown Minrith Clinic,
specializing in adolescent rehaband treatment of mental health
issues.
For the past two decades, Benhas been involved in higher
education, helping to developstudents and others to think
critically and holisticallyabout their faith, profession
and care for others.
He served for over 20 years atEmmaus Bible College in various
(01:33):
positions, most recently as achair of the health service
department and professor in thecounseling psychology program.
Ben is a board-cert certifiedcounselor in CC and currently
serves as a professor ofclinical counseling in the
graduate counseling programs MAand PhD at Columbia
International University.
(01:54):
He also maintains a smallcounseling practice as a
licensed professional counselorand supervisor in South Carolina
, where he lives with his wife,Jenna, and their four children.
We're so thankful to have youand to have you as a resource
here at Ben Lippen.
You're literally right herebecause we share campus, so
(02:14):
we're just so thankful to haveyour expertise in this kind of a
hot topic, to be able to tie itback to a Biblical worldview
and how we can implement some ofthese things.
So I'm sure our listeners arejust Erin, well, where is this
conversation going to go andwhat is the vein that we're
going to be in?
So let's just kind of dive in.
So in this first episode wewant to talk about our posture
(02:38):
on the topic of race, so I'mjust going to kind of turn it
over to you and your expertise.
Dr. Ben Mathew (02:42):
Yeah, no, I appreciate this, Erin, and I
really do appreciate the desireof Ben Lippen to kind of step
into it.
You said it perfectly this is atopic that's rife with a lot of
opinion and a lot ofpolarization, and somewhat
understandably, I get that.
I think our culture tends toprovide a lot of heat and not a
(03:05):
lot of light when it comes tothese issues, and so we kind of
encamp ourselves into one sideor the other.
And so I think, understandably,some people that are listening
to this podcast, even seeing thetitle come up on their screen,
might go, oh my, what's BenLippen getting into, and why are
they getting into it?
All these questions, I'm sure,are coming up because our
(03:26):
culture really wants to push thepolarization of it.
So, as much as we need to getinto some of the specifics, we
need to talk some biblicaltheology, we need to talk about
some practical elements.
Before we kind of dive into allthat, I always try to think
about what I refer to as myheart posture, knowing that I'm
(03:49):
not unbiased, knowing that Ialready have certain
perspectives when I'm challenged, when I'm engaging with areas
that I may be unfamiliar with.
First thing I need to often dobefore I get into the topic is
address my heart and be willingto say, okay, what areas do I
need to submit myself to theLord and respond to with the
Holy Spirit?
That's my hope with this firstepisode.
Before we get into the issues,before we even kind of get into
(04:12):
some of the responses that wemay have, my hope is that we can
kind of start thinking about aheart posture so that we can get
into the issues, so we don'tmiss, I think, what God's Word
and what we here at Ben LippenSchool can be doing in this
important topic.
So that's kind of one of theareas I wanted to start with
with you in this first episode.
Mrs. Erin Kay (04:32):
Yeah, I agree with that.
It's important to understandhow we're created, why we're
created, the way that we are asindividuals and as a collective,
but also where some of theseimplicit biases lie within us,
and you know that discussion of.
Are our biases bad or are theyan opportunity for us to examine
posture?
So what is your?
(04:53):
What are your thoughts on heartposture?
Dr. Ben Mathew (04:55):
Like I said, a really important place to start,
maybe kind of alleviate kind ofconcerns on both sides.
One of the things that I'mwanting to ensure is that we are
wanting to, first and foremost,speak out of an authority of
God's word, out of a convictionof God's truth.
In no way is this intended tobe a political podcast.
This is not intending to be.
(05:16):
Hey, this is what this sidesays, or that side says.
We want to ground this first inGod's truth.
So I often think of a passagelike in Jude 3, this little
epistle right before the book ofRevelation, where he says
although I was very eager towrite to you about our common
salvation, I found it necessaryto write appealing to you to
contend for the faith that wasonce for all delivered to the
(05:38):
saints.
I look at that.
That's a great passage, thislittle powerful epistle where
Jude is wanting to say, firstand foremost, the reason we're
talking and engaging with theseideas is because The Gospel
unites us.
And because The Gospel unitesus, it's The Gospel that informs
our continued engagement inwhatever issue, whether it be
race, whether it be sexuality,whether it be politics, whatever
(06:02):
topic we may come across, thehope is that we're first coming
out of a point of biblicalconviction that we can contend
for the faith that is oncedelivered to the saints.
And that's I want to kind ofhopefully let the hearers of
this podcast understand that'swhere we want to start from.
We're not looking to be woke,we're not looking to be cutting
edge or culturally.
(06:23):
You know, with it Our desirefirst and foremost and I know
this of Ben Lippen, I know thisof where I'm at at CIU we want
the authority of God's word tolead our discussions, and so to
me I think that's reallyimportant.
Now, hopefully, the listenersof this podcast will assess that
truth or not.
I'm hoping I can kind ofshowcase that, but I think, like
(06:44):
the Bereans in the book of Acts, it's your job to make sure
that assessment is true.
We're hoping we've come out ofa conviction of God's truth to
contend for it earnestly andletting that be our kind of
North Star in some of thesediscussions.
On the other side, if I cankind of maybe say it, on kind of
two sides of the same coin, Ido want us to recognize we have
an opportunity here, I think, tohold conviction with one hand
(07:09):
and be flexible with the other.
And the passage that I oftenthink about for that is the
Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9.
Corinthians is this great bookthat they're dealing with so
many different issues and Paul'strying to constantly bring them
back to The Gospel as itinforms the Lord's Supper, or
marriage, or sexuality orwhatever.
And there's this one contextwhere he's talking about
cultural engagement, and wewon't get into all the details
(07:30):
of it, but one of the things hesays in 1 Corinthians, chapter 9
, let me read some of thepassage and it kind of informs
what I'm talking about.
For though I am free from all,I've made myself a servant to
all that I might win more ofthem.
To the Jews I become a Jew inorder to win Jews.
To those under the law, Ibecame as one under the law that
I might win those who are underthe law.
To those outside the law, Ibecome as one outside the law
(07:53):
that I might win those outsidethe law.
To the weak I become weak thatI might win the weak.
I become all things to allpeople that by all means I might
save some.
I do it for the sake of TheGospel.
Now I read a verse like that.
I think there's no question Paulis a passionate man for The
Gospel.
In the book of Galatians, whenhe sees Peter doing things that
(08:14):
are not in keeping, he rebukeshim straight to his face, as he
does the Galatian church ingeneral.
But in this passage, eventhough he's firmly committed to
The Gospel, he's also willing tobe flexible.
Right, like even the first lineto the Jews I've become a Jew,
which is such an almost funnysounding statement.
I've become a Jew, which issuch an almost funny sounding
statement.
How does a man who is already aJew become a Jew to reach Jews?
(08:36):
It seems like an antitheticalkind of notion, but I think what
Paul is saying is that his if Ican use this term his Jewness
was something he can use and notuse, because it wasn't his
defining reality, it wasn't themost important thing to him.
But he'll use it, he'll engagewith it if it helps advance The
Gospel, similarly to those whoaren't Jewish, those who, as he
(08:59):
says, are outside of the law.
If he's with Greeks, he's goingto be a little more Greek.
If he's with weak, if he's withthose outside inside, he's
willing to have a flexibility inthe contexts he's in in order
to help people see andunderstand The Gospel of Jesus
Christ.
He has this conviction that Ithink Jude is talking about Let
us contend earnestly for thefaith.
(09:21):
And yet he has a flexibilitywhere he's willing to move into
different spaces and reach themwhere they're at.
And I look at that and Irealize, yeah, I want to have
conviction and not be just wokeor culturally relevant, but nor
do I want to be indifferent tothese issues.
Paul was willing to recognizethe cultural, religious,
(09:42):
socioeconomic, like one of them.
He talks about how he does this, all for the sake of The Gospel
.
I want to have both thosepostures.
I want to be a person ofconviction, no-transcript,
(10:16):
especially as relates tosomething that's so polarizing.
That, to me, is, I think, wherewe need to start when it comes
to this heart posture idea.
Mrs. Erin Kay (10:24):
And what's coming to mind when you're talking
about this and I'm dating myselfa little bit here, but Gumby,
or that old doll.
Stretch Armstrong or InspectorGadget right.
Like the molecules that createGumby and Stretch Armstrong,
they don't change, but theirflexibility allows them to reach
out and do more.
Dr. Ben Mathew (10:42):
Gumby's still Gumby, even when you pull on
them.
Mrs. Erin Kay (10:44):
Exactly, exactly, and we are still who God
designed us to be.
And you know, something elsethat's coming to mind too is,
you know, having the heartposture is having a hardened
heart, and sometimes we realizeit, we recognize it and maybe we
don't want to change it, or wedo want to change it, or
sometimes we don't even realizeit.
So what are some steps to kindof examining our hearts and
(11:06):
being open and willing to beokay with where we are?
Dr. Ben Mathew (11:10):
Yeah, that's great, great question.
I think one of the first thingsis actually quite practical.
Even as some of you saw thetitle of this podcast on your
phone or started hearing thiscome up on your device, ask
yourself the question what wasmy first response?
What was my first reaction tohearing that Ben Lippen School
(11:30):
is doing a podcast on racialissues?
Was it?
Oh?
I can't believe they're goingwoke.
Was it?
Oh?
This is amazing.
Finally they're doing it.
Or was it?
Oh?
They're going to totally messthis up?
They have no idea what they'retalking about and I don't want
to assume that that's a right orwrong response.
Please understand, I'm notlooking to judge your response,
(11:52):
but I am hopeful that, one,you'll be willing to look back
and ask yourself what was yourresponse.
And two, to consider is thatresponse holding you back from
engaging?
Now, again, I think theresponse is somewhat
understandable given our currentclimate experiences.
Again, I don't want to assumethat the response is wrong, but
(12:13):
to what degree is it alreadymaybe putting up some barriers
of engagement?
One of the things I often sayfor myself, if not for my
students and clients that I workwith.
First step is admitting.
Next step is dealing.
And how do we now start dealingwith those barriers that may be
coming up?
For me, that's kind of whatwe're going to be getting into
(12:33):
with some of this discussion ona biblical theology of race.
I'm hopeful that we'll let TheGospel, the word of God, inform
and start maybe pulling downsome of those barriers that
we've developed.
But for me, yeah, it always kindof comes back to one admit and
now start to deal in some honestways.
Part of that might be talkingto somebody about it too, right?
(12:56):
I think one of the I know forme, one of the biggest and most
impactful ways I grow and learnis just talking to others.
Let's be honest, this is atopic that sometimes people are
a little nervous to even engagewith, and so I recognize maybe
some of the awkwardness orhesitation.
But I think just getting it outsometimes in itself can be such
(13:17):
a helpful means of betterunderstanding our response and
then asking okay, what can I doto maybe start removing some of
those barriers to furtherengaging?
Mrs. Erin Kay (13:25):
Yeah, and it's our intention behind sharing
what's in our heart.
Dr. Ben Mathew (13:30):
Yeah, right, right that, hopefully that gives
us a we're not looking to fight, we're not looking to okay, I'm
going to put this person intheir place kind of idea.
But it's truly asking if webelieve that we're all on a
growth journey, what wetheologically called
sanctification.
There's.
Every area of my life needsimprovement, every area, and so
if this is one area that you'rehearing and you're thinking I
(13:53):
got this one figured out, mightI suggest that's probably a area
you need to work on, because weall are growing until the Lord
takes us to glory.
Mrs. Erin Kay (14:00):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And something else that'scoming to mind as you're talking
is God wants us to come just aswe are, whatever our heart
posture is, he wants us to comeand be open with him.
Dr. Ben Mathew (14:11):
That's a great point and maybe to kind of even
add to that he wants us to comeas we are, but not stay as we
are.
Mrs. Erin Kay (14:16):
Yes.
Dr. Ben Mathew (14:17):
Because I think both are.
That's a great point, Erin.
I think both are so important.
You don't have to get yourselfall figured out and then come to
God.
God's like no, no, no, no.
Just like the prodigal son.
You just need to turn in all ofyour brokenness and God, the
father, is waiting for you.
And yet that story in Luke 15indicates the father is so
thankful to receive the son inhis brokenness, but then he puts
(14:39):
a ring on his finger, a robe onhis back, sandals.
He doesn't leave him in hisbrokenness.
Come as you are, but the fatherloves you too much to leave you
as you are.
Perhaps this may be one of thoseareas that you recognize.
You're okay.
I need to grow, I need todevelop.
I need to maybe admit somebrokenness in this area, but
come with hope, knowing theFather wants to do something
(15:00):
here.
And I think, in a communitylike Ben Lippen, where that's
one of our goals right, we arelooking to glorify God from a
biblical worldview, so that ourstudents can grow in every sense
of the word, and I think that'sa large reason why parents and
family members send their kidsto Ben Lippen, because they want
that for their kids, but theymost definitely want to see that
(15:22):
in their families as well.
Mrs. Erin Kay (15:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, listeners, we're not justgoing to leave you hanging here.
We're going to.
This is going to be an ongoingseries and we've broken it up
into bite-sized chunks so thatit's not overwhelming.
And this is just theintroduction to it, so that you
can come as you are.
So what are your suggestionsfor?
You know, you mentioned oneabout you know what is my first
(15:45):
response and kind of examiningheart posture but what are some
really solid ways that ourlisteners can prepare for the
rest of this series?
Dr. Ben Mathew (15:54):
Yeah, that's a that's a great question.
Yeah, we already kind ofmentioned the.
In light of the title, in lightof the podcast topic, what's
your first response?
Maybe starting to identify someof those initial engagements.
Also Erin is that then perhapsputting up some barriers?
Are you finding yourselfresistant just because of the
topic and some of theexperiences or ways you've
(16:15):
engaged?
And then I think, verypractically, to try to have some
of these conversations withpeople you trust, find some
people in your community, inyour family, where you can start
asking those questions,admitting some of those
realities, to what degree youcan be part of that conversation
with others, I think could bereally helpful and asking.
I think one area particularlyfor me is asking the Lord to
(16:39):
help my heart and let that thenguide my mind.
If my heart is filled with TheGospel, my mind will be willing
to engage with God's truth.
I think what Paul says in 2Timothy this is kind of coming
near the end of Paul's life,he's kind of going to be dealing
with execution and so he'ssomewhat reflective on the life
the Lord has led him into ashe's sitting there in jail and
(17:00):
he says the Lord's servant thisis in 2 Timothy 2, the Lord's
servant must not be quarrelsome,but kind to only those we agree
with is not what the text says.
Just to be clear, I'mintentionally misreading it
there.
Mrs. Erin Kay (17:13):
Let me read it in the right way then.
Dr. Ben Mathew (17:14):
The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome
but kind to everyone.
If your first response, if myfirst response, is this is the
topic and those are the peopleI'm against, again, I.
If my first response is this isthe topic and those are the
people I'm against, again, Iunderstand.
I want to give space for thefrustrations and the concerns
that I think are legitimate whenit comes to these areas, but if
my first response is how can Ibeat these other people down?
How can I win, how can I ownthe other side, as it were?
(17:35):
If that's my first response, Iam not in keeping with the
commands of scripture.
Being kind to everyone and I'mnot a Greek scholar, but I'm
pretty sure the Greek foreveryone there means everyone
agree with them or not.
The best way I can startengaging, if not in my own life,
in my own community, at BenLippen, is to start letting my
responses be honest, talking toothers and letting my engagement
(17:58):
be a winsome engagement, and Ithink that's a good place to
start, in terms of our postureof the heart at least.
Mrs. Erin Kay (18:04):
That's great.
Thank you so much for that.
So this series is going to be alittle bit different than the
one that we did with ChrisMcKenna, with Protect Young Eyes
, in that Dr Mathew and I we arerecording four episodes and
then we're leaving the lastepisode, not recorded just yet,
because we want to open thefloor to our listeners, to be
able to have this open dialogueand to ask questions and to just
(18:26):
let us know how you're feelingas we navigate through this.
So in our show notes, you willfind a link to a form that you
can fill out where you can askyour questions about what we
talked about today, and DrMathew and I we are going to
review them and we will have alittle questions, concerns and
comments where you get to have avoice in this.
(18:46):
So please fill that out and letus know if there's anything
that we can do to help supportyou with this journey.
Dr. Ben Mathew (18:52):
Yeah, that's a great reminder, Erin.
I think we want to provide someengagement.
In no ways do we have all theanswers, but I think that's part
of the joy of working togetheris having some dialogue and then
keeping to go back to scriptureso we can find more answers in
God's truth.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:07):
Absolutely, Dr Mathew.
If anyone wants to get in touchwith you, what's the best way?
Dr. Ben Mathew (19:11):
Yeah, I'm a professor at Columbia
International University and soI'm not nearly as cool as
everyone else with Instagram andall the other social media, so
email is just going to be theeasiest way to contact me.
B-e-n dot M-A-T-H-E-W at C-I-Udot E-D-U.
My kids are quick to remind meI was born in the 1900s, so I'm
pretty old.
Mrs. Erin Kay (19:32):
So, anyway, well, thank you so much for being
here with us today, and we willsee everyone on our next episode
.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com