April 9, 2025 • 22 mins
Dr. Ben Mathew returns to conclude our five-part series on racial reconciliation with a powerful synthesis of biblical teaching and practical wisdom. Rather than diving into political talking points, we ground our conversation in scripture's grand narrative—from creation to revelation—exploring how God's design for a diverse human family unfolds.
The journey begins with the Imago Dei, establishing our primary identity as image-bearers before any racial or ethnic distinction. Through the lens of Genesis 11 and Acts 2, we witness God's judgment through language division at Babel contrasted with his redemptive work through language unification at Pentecost. Most significantly, Revelation reveals Christ's sacrifice specifically ransomed people "from every tribe, language, people and nation"—diversity that brings God glory like a symphony of distinct instruments playing in harmony.
When discussing evangelical unity, Dr. Mathew emphasizes holding core Gospel truths with conviction while approaching secondary matters with charity. His practical advice for building cross-cultural relationships starts simply: "Ask people to tell their stories." This human connection builds relational equity that can eventually support more challenging conversations about race.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is the biblical evidence for both individual and systemic expressions of sin. Through examples like Achan's family punishment, Daniel's national repentance, and Adam's sin affecting all humanity, scripture acknowledges community responsibility alongside personal accountability—a balanced perspective that challenges our cultural extremes.
As our community grows increasingly diverse, Dr. Mathew leaves us with this guiding principle: "The Gospel creates soft hearts and thick skin." Our secure identity in Christ gives us both the compassion and resilience needed to engage difficult conversations with grace, humility, and hope.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Ben
Lippin Podcast.
This is our final episode withDr Ben Matthew.
We're going to be summarizingwhat we have discussed in the
previous four episodes with himand digging a little bit deeper
into one of the questions thatwas brought to us and talking a
little bit more about some otherissues that have come to the
surface.
(00:20):
So welcome back, dr Matthew.
We are so excited you're herewith us today.
Why don't we just dive rightinto an overview of what we've
talked about in our previousepisodes?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me again,because I really do appreciate
Ben Lippin's willingness toengage into a topic that I know
tends to create sometimes moreheat than light, which is why
we've wanted to start this wholeepisode's whole section on what
does God's word say, ratherthan just kind of go into the
political talking heads or thecultural debates of our day.
Let's start, let's be groundedby scripture and the story, the
narrative that God presentsthere.
(00:55):
That's really what we weretrying to do in those earlier
episodes I often think about.
The story of God is first andforemost, the person and work of
Jesus.
And then how that greater storythen informs smaller stories,
one of which is racial andethnic reconciliation.
It's not the main story of theBible but it's one of the
stories that I think unfoldsfrom creation, where God creates
(01:17):
humans in his image.
That theology of the Imago Dei,I think, is so important.
That gives us not racial orethnic identity but identity
grounded on God's love for us,that he creates us in his image
to be a icon, a steward of hisengagement.
And in the beginning of Genesisit's a beautiful thing that we
get to co-partner with God increation.
(01:39):
The fall obviously mars thatand puts a strain on that
relationship between us and God,between us and each other,
between us and the world.
And I use Genesis 11 as acontinuation.
We know the fall happens inGenesis 3, but Genesis 11 is
kind of this continuation of thefall particular to the problems
of humanity.
You look at that story in thecreation of a tower of Babel.
(02:02):
It wants to reach the heavensto make a name for themselves,
and so it's out of selfishness,it's out of real desire to
uphold themselves rather thanhonor God, and the story
essentially ends with God comingdown and, through language,
dividing them.
So we see the people scatteredbecause of their rebellion and
judgment from God, butthankfully God doesn't give up
(02:23):
on his creation.
Rebellion and judgment from God, but thankfully God doesn't
give up on his creation.
Genesis 11 leads us to thenarrative that finds fulfillment
ultimately in Jesus Christ, andI use a passage in Revelation 5
that really tries to helpunpack what happens at the cross
.
Theologians talk a lot about theatonement and different
theories of the atonement,meaning what happens in the
death of Jesus.
Ultimately, I think the deathof Jesus provides a means of
(02:46):
salvation for us in that hebecomes sin for us, he becomes
our substitute, he dies for us.
But scripture also communicatesother things happen there, like
in Revelation 5, where it saysby your blood there's a direct
reference to the cross youransom people for God from every
tribe and language and peopleand nation.
So I think John, through theHoly Spirit, is trying to paint
(03:09):
a picture that when Jesus diedon the cross, one of the reasons
he died not the only reason,but one of the reasons he died
was to redeem ransom for himselfa multi-ethnic community.
This is why he says tribe,language, people and nation.
He doesn't just say a bunch ofpeople, he goes out of his way
to highlight distinct ethnicrealities of this ransomed
community.
(03:30):
And that happened because ofthe cross.
That happened because of thedeath and burial resurrection of
Jesus Christ, which leads usthen to the reconciliation that
is happening in Acts 2, providesus this great kind of bookmark
to Genesis 11.
We call it the day of Pentecost, or the beginning of the
universal church, where allthese people are gathered in
Jerusalem and the Holy Spiritcomes on them powerfully to
(03:50):
start this new work called thechurch.
But I use it as a bookmark toGenesis 11 because, if you
remember, in Genesis 11, godcomes down and through language
divides.
Well, in Acts, chapter two, god, the Holy Spirit, comes down
and through language unites andyou're supposed to see those
similarities and differencesbetween Genesis 11 and Acts two.
You're supposed to see thesimilarity of God coming down,
(04:12):
but in Genesis 11, he's judgingthem and they're divided,
whereas in Acts two they'reseeing the blessings of God, as
the text says, that we may seethe mighty works of God, and it
unites them to go spread thegospel.
That can only be done becausewhat Jesus accomplished on the
cross, that people from all overthe known world and if you look
at Dr Luke's explanation in thebook of Acts he lists all the
(04:34):
different people, groups fromall over the world.
He doesn't again just say abunch of people gathered
together, he lists them all out.
And I love that because I thinkhe's trying to make the point
that this is a multi-ethnic workof God which ultimately leads
to the end of the story inRevelation 7, right when John is
(04:55):
looking into the future, thisvision he's given on the Isle of
Patmos, he sees a greatmultitude that no one could
number, and again from everynation and tribe, people and
language standing before thethrone and before the lamb.
John goes out of his way againto not just say a bunch of
people, but he goes out of hisway to highlight a multi-ethnic
people because the diversitybrings greater glory to God.
Diversity in itself is not whatGod's for, but he wants
(05:18):
diversity if it brings himgreater glory.
Much like a symphony.
If you just have one personplaying a violin, they can be a
beautiful musician and it cansound lovely.
But if you pair that violinwith brass instruments and
percussions and woodwinds andall the other variety of
instruments, you get a symphony.
That's what God wants, and sowhen we get to the glory I base
(05:38):
off of this passage inRevelation 7, that we will
persist in our ethnic realities.
My family is originally fromIndia, so I'm of a darker brown
shade.
My wife's family is most likelyof Scandinavian background, so
she has a much fairer complexionthan I do, and I often joke
that when we get to heaven, godwill not take, like his cosmic,
universal, remote change, thecolor contrast on me and lighten
(06:00):
me up and darken my wife, wherewe're all just beige, right,
right, right.
God loves the diversity, peoplefrom every tribe and tongue and
nation, because it actuallybrings him greater glory, and so
that story, I think, is reallyimportant where we start.
There's a lot of debates aboutso many other issues, but
instead of starting at thedebates, what if we start with
the gospel?
and let that really inform.
How then we engage with thosediscussions?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Absolutely.
Our understanding of thescripture is what they mean,
what they truly mean, not whatwe want them to mean or not what
you know, dear Aunt Sally toldus that they should mean
according to what her littlecountry church told her that
they meant.
You know, it's really importantto really look at what they
mean.
So thank you for that and oneof the beautiful.
(06:43):
As you're talking, I'm justthinking, trying to paint a
picture for people who might notbe familiar with the campus of
Columbia InternationalUniversity and the main campus
of Ben Lippitt and how it's setup.
So we, essentially our campuses, are joined together and
something that we might take forgranted is when you pull on to
International Boulevard, it'scalled International Boulevard
and there are flags from everycountry.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I think it's intended to represent both current and
past students, so I don't thinkit's every country, but at least
students that have come fromthose countries.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yes, so there are flags all the way down the
International Boulevard so thatwe can see exactly what you're
mentioning here.
You know the language, thepeople and the tribes that are
bringing glory to God, so I lovethat we try to embody that here
, which again brings us to thenext point of discussion,
evangelical unity, which issomething that I know Columbia
International University reallyleans towards.
(07:31):
So share with us a little bit.
What does that mean?
Evangelical unity?
It's one of our corecommitments.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
We have five core commitments and this is one of
evangelical unity.
I always talk about both wordsbeing so important.
When we talk about unity, wewant to happily engage with
other Christians who claim thegospel of Jesus Christ and
recognize that there's so muchmore in common than what we
disagree.
Now that doesn't mean that wecan't have conversations and
(07:55):
healthy debates about the wayswe do church or how we
understand baptism or how wecelebrate the Lord's Supper or
all these other interestingdiscussions.
But the hope is we do it withcharity, that we do it with
humility, that we recognizethese are my brothers and
sisters in Christ, that even ifwe may not agree on these issues
, we agree that we're part ofthe family of God and so we
treat each other with the neededrespect in those conversations.
(08:18):
That's the unity part.
I also tried to really stressthe evangelical part.
The word evangelical just meansreally good news.
It's how we understand thegospel.
We want to be charitable to allbut recognize we can only be
evangelical based upon thegospel.
I often go to 1 Corinthians,chapter 15, as kind of my
central text for that, when Paulis trying to help the
Corinthian church with so manydifferent issues, he always
(08:41):
brings it back to the gospel.
For I delivered unto you, as offirst importance, the gospel,
and Paul doesn't get into thecolor of the walls in the church
, he doesn't talk about whichinstruments to play, he doesn't
talk about what mode of baptism.
What Paul says is who Jesus isand what Jesus accomplished,
based upon the authority ofGod's word.
That's the core and we havesome non-negotiables, if I can
(09:02):
say it that way, that we musthave to define ourselves as
evangelical Christians.
I realize it means there'sothers that don't agree with
that, people that are atheisticor of other religions, and I
should always be charitable, butI can't say that we're
evangelical together and that'sreally, at its core right, the
gospel of Jesus Christ.
So when it comes to an issuelike this of race, I need to
(09:22):
remember this is not necessarilya gospel core issue, right?
How you think and believe aboutthe issue of racial
reconciliation, whether it bethrough scripture or through
culture, doesn't determine ifyou're a Christian or not.
That is not what defines me asa Christian.
What defines me as a Christianis how I believe about who Jesus
is and the salvation he'soffered me.
So I hope to have charity withpeople but understand there are
(09:43):
things that really define thecore of who we are and hold that
with conviction and havecivility with other people.
That may differ on some of theother issues.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
In one of the previous episodes, you
challenged us to go and havecoffee with someone who looks
different, believes different,thinks different than we do, to
get to know them.
So, when it comes to theoverarching theme of this
podcast series, how would youencourage someone who has not
done this before, who has notsat across the table having
(10:14):
coffee with someone who looksdifferent, thinks different,
believes different than they do?
How would you encourage them tohave that evangelical unity
within this discussion?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
That's a great question would you encourage
them to have that evangelicalunity within this discussion?
That's a great question For me,one of the things I love I say
both as an educator who teachesin a graduate clinical counselor
, also as a therapist.
I have I'm a licensedprofessional counselor and I can
, I say, just as a human, I lovehearing people's stories.
I just find it fascinating justto hear the different contexts
of their life and where itstarted and some of the
(10:42):
struggles but some of the waysthey came through it.
I just I love hearing storiesfrom people and one of the ways
I think I can do this best,especially when it comes to
others I'm unfamiliar with orunfamiliar about their
experience.
Instead of trying to say, okay,help me understand this concept,
help me, let's debate thistheology.
What if, instead, we just say,can you just tell me your story?
Like, give me some informationabout you, and it could be
(11:05):
really big, from I was born at ayoung age to on to the present.
Or it could be what happenedthis past week, like give me
something that just happened.
And I realize when I startgetting into people's stories,
their narratives actually startfinding out about them.
Right, what motivates them,what scares them, what excites
them, what makes them nervous,who are the most important
people in their lives, who arethe places and situation they
(11:27):
want to avoid.
When I am willing to listen tostories, without it being this
kind of fight about these issues, I tend to start developing
relationship, and it's out ofrelationship where I can
hopefully put in that relationalequity right.
I earn the right to maybe thenunderstand some deeper issues as
well and engage with some ofthese a little more difficult
(11:47):
conversations, but I've earnedthe right because I just wanted
to get to know you right Interms of who you are.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Helps you to see people for people, instead of
seeing people as whatever theissue is at the table.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Right.
They're not a project, they'rea human right.
I mean, that's the thing mywife and I would often talk
about.
In whatever neighborhood welived in, we most definitely
want to share the gospel withour neighbors, but we made an
effort to say what if, instead,our first job is just to be a
good neighbor?
Don't get me wrong.
We want to share the gospel.
It's the most important thingthey need to hear.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
But what if we just?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I don't know have them over for burgers.
What if we just like help themmow their grass and just be a
good friend whereby, if it comesup right, if not, we at least
can just be good neighbors?
And I think that's what god'scalling us to do in a lot of
these conversations, because weget so concerned about the
conversation we forget there'sjust a real person that is just
looking to connect oh, that'srich.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That's wonderful.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, and that comes into youknow this these systematic and
individual issues, so share withus a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, I think one of the big questions that where the
rubber meets the road.
So it's one thing to say youknow all this stuff about a
biblical theology of race andethnic engagement.
I think for a lot of peoplethere's concern as to what does
this look like and then how dowe actually address it?
And so I usually get into aconversation of what I often
refer to, both systemic andindividual racism, and I try to
avoid systemic or individualracism, that it's an either or.
(13:13):
The reality is, I think we seeit on both fronts.
I think, most of us understandindividual racism meaning a
person says or does somethingtowards another person based on
their race or ethnicity thatmaligns them, that discourages
them.
I know this has happened to mewhen people spray painted on my
garage door as a little kid, gohome, get out of here.
(13:33):
That was most definitelyhurtful to me and my family.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I think most people understand that.
The one that a lot of peopleare concerned about or don't
understand or haven't beenexposed to is this idea of
systems of racism.
And one way I try to kind ofhelp them think about this, for
instance, at Ben Lippin we.
What's the mascot for BenLippin?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
The Falcon Falcon.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So I assume all of our teams are the Falcon.
So I assume if, if anyone has akid who plays for any of the
sports teams, and, more oftenthan not, if that team wins and
I'm just gushing with pride andjoy over my kids' involvement
I'm more likely than not willsay to others hey, guess what?
The Falcons won.
We won the game this past week,and I wanted to highlight how I
(14:17):
said it there.
We won.
And what I'm trying tohighlight there is, though, to
be clear, I never stepped footonto that field, I never hit the
ball once in the volleyballtournament, but yet somehow I
feel somewhat encouraged to saywe, the Falcons, won, because I
identify with the team, eventhough I never played on it.
I'm part of it, and so thisidea of engaging with a
(14:40):
community, even when we're notfully engaged with it, gives us
an idea that we're part of thesesystems.
So that can be sports teams,that can definitely be countries
.
Right, I was born and raised inCanada, and so I'll be honest
when, during the Olympics comeup, there's some division in my
household because my wife'sAmerican, I'm Canadian, and when
Team Canada wins, I say to mywife we won.
(15:00):
Let's be clear, I've never beenon an Olympic team and I will
never participate in one, and Ihad nothing to do with it, but I
used the language of we usbecause I identify with that
community.
That, to me, is one way of kindof thinking through how
sometimes we need to understandthat there are systems,
communities at play, even whenit comes to things like racism,
(15:22):
not just individual bad apples,as it were.
Sometimes there are systems atplay that are actually promoting
racist ideologies.
The question for us today is isthat where we're at in America,
was that where we were at andno longer are there?
That's the big debate.
So I'm not it's not that I'mnot interested in that debate,
but kind of like what we didbefore.
(15:42):
I want to ground this inscripture first.
Does the Bible talk aboutsystemic racism or, more
importantly, does it talk aboutsystemic evil, regardless of
what type of evil, whether it'sracism or otherwise?
To me I want to look atscripture and ask that question
Is there something in scripturethat talks about systems that
produce and encourage an evilreality in our culture?
(16:04):
And so for me it kind of goes.
There's a bunch of differentstories that highlight this.
For instance, in like Joshua 7,there's this individual who the
whole nation, whenever theywould conquer enemies, they were
told destroy everything, don'tkeep anything for yourself.
And there's this one guy whoends up keeping a little for
himself, right Achan, and hehides it underneath his tent and
, of course, it comes out andhe's found out and he's like
(16:25):
yeah, I stole it, I did it.
And if you read the story inJoshua 7, not only is he
punished through capitalpunishment he's killed but also
his wife and kids are killed too.
Now, I don't know about you,but here I am in 2025 reading a
passage like this and going waita second, that seems so unfair
Achan's sin.
Why is his family being killedin light of his sin?
(16:46):
I think it's in part because inthe ancient Near East,
especially in a Middle Easterncontext, there was much more of
a community identity that if oneperson wins, we all win, but if
one person sins, we all sin andthe consequences of that extend
to us as well.
This idea, I think, issomething that's a little hard
for us in the West, becausewe're all about individualism,
(17:08):
right, we're all aboutmeritocracy and our ability to
do what we do and not because ofwhat other people do.
But in the Bible it's kind ofaccepted that you're part of
something bigger than yourself,which is why, like in Daniel 9,
when, if you read that story,daniel is reading through the
Old Testament and he realizeshow far Israel has sinned, how
far the nation has come apartfrom God.
(17:29):
So Daniel in Daniel 9 prays toGod and he says God, we have
sinned against you, we as anation have sinned.
Now again, in 2025, if I wassitting there hearing Daniel
pray this, I'd be like hey,daniel, speak for yourself.
Buddy.
Like why are you saying Isinned?
That seems unfair to implicatethe entire nation for sinning,
but in Daniel's mindset it isthe whole nation.
(17:50):
Even if it was a small group ofpeople, they represent and are
part of a larger community.
And so there are these storieswe have in scripture that I
think even at the heart of thegospel.
I had a friend of mine in highschool.
I remember he said to me Ben, Igot to be honest, I hear your
gospel, but it kind of bothersme because, if I understand it,
(18:10):
you're saying some guy namedAdam, thousands of years ago, on
the other side of the world,ate some fruit, and because of
what he did, I'm in trouble.
I was like, uh yeah, that'sabout right and I could
understand his frustration.
Right, some guy he's never met,some guy who he'll never have a
chance to engage with becausehe messed up.
I'm now messed up.
He felt that was just so unjust, so unfair.
(18:33):
But the Bible says this is true,right In Romans 5, because of
one man's sin, sin entered intothe world.
Because of one man'sdisobedience, we are all
condemned that we are part of asystem, not of just a family
like Achan, not just of a nationlike Israel, but of a community
called humanity.
We are all sinful because ofwhat one person did.
(18:53):
The good news I often try totell him is that where the first
Adam failed, a second Adamrestored.
Because of the good of thesecond Adam, we can now all have
life, not because I've earnedit, which was interesting,
because my friend he rejectedthat too.
He got really upset thatsomeone else provided a way for
him, but he wanted to do ithimself and so I always think
about my friend, as he fullyunderstood the gospel.
(19:16):
One man messed me up, one mansaves me, and he rejected both
because he was so anti andtypical to the idea that others
impact me.
I'm not part of a system, I'mmy own man, is what he would say
, to which the Bible says no,you are both your own man and
part of a system, and we need tounderstand that there is this
thing called systemic evil asmuch as there both is individual
(19:37):
evil.
That doesn't excuse individualresponsibility, and so I think
some cultures go a little toofar and say, well, it's just the
system you're in Now you needto take accountability for the
decisions you make and you willstand before God ultimately.
But that doesn't remove therealities that there are systems
in place as well.
So that's kind of my shortversion of trying to understand
it.
Does scripture, aside from theissue of racism?
(19:59):
Does scripture talk aboutsystemic evil?
And I think there are a numberof examples where it does.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Absolutely, and this has been a wonderful, a
wonderful discussion and it, youknow, it's all.
It all circles back around toscripture, coming back to
scripture, coming back to thelens of the Lord and how he
would approach our neighbors,and you know the conversations
that he would have with peopleand how he looks at us, how he
views us and how he would talkto us, and that's how we need to
(20:25):
be approaching one another,these discussions.
So I just appreciate your time,you know, over the years, not
just within these discussions,but over the years that have
allowed us to engage in thesediscussions with Ben Lippin.
So is there anything that you'dlike to share in closing with
our community, with thesediscussions?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Again, just my appreciation to Ben Lippin for
your willingness to jump into aconversation that I know is not
always the easiest but I thinkis really important, especially
as that question even mentioned.
Our community is growing andthat's a good thing.
I think we're having greaterimpact and the opportunities to
Stewart's gifts here at BenLippin.
But with that, I think, comesgreater responsibility.
The more blessing we have, themore God has called us to engage
(21:05):
, and part of that is theengagement with other
communities, other cultures,other ethnicities.
To me, if we're grounded in thegospel, if our identity is
first in Christ, that gives usallowance to engage with all
these other identities.
The way that I keep on thinkingabout it is the gospel creates
soft hearts and thick skin.
I know my identity in Christ, Iknow where I stand and so I
(21:25):
realize the thick skin comes inbecause sometimes people are not
always careful or alwaysgracious.
But my hope is that we canstill have these conversations
knowing that our ultimateidentity is rooted in the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And understanding that sometimes I'm not always
graceful either.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Likewise, and Lord is still working on me in these
areas too.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, dr Matthew,and again, what's the best way
for people to get in touch withyou if they'd like further
clarification or if they havequestions?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Absolutely.
I'm a professor in the GraduateClinical Counseling Programs
here at CIU, so you can alwaysreach me through my email,
benmathew at ciuedu.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Thank you so much.
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Ben
Lippin Podcast.
This is our final episode withDr Ben Matthew.
We're going to be summarizingwhat we have discussed in the
previous four episodes with himand digging a little bit deeper
into one of the questions thatwas brought to us and talking a
little bit more about some otherissues that have come to the
surface.
(00:20):
So welcome back, dr Matthew.
We are so excited you're herewith us today.
Why don't we just dive rightinto an overview of what we've
talked about in our previousepisodes?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me again,because I really do appreciate
Ben Lippin's willingness toengage into a topic that I know
tends to create sometimes moreheat than light, which is why
we've wanted to start this wholeepisode's whole section on what
does God's word say, ratherthan just kind of go into the
political talking heads or thecultural debates of our day.
Let's start, let's be groundedby scripture and the story, the
narrative that God presentsthere.
(00:55):
That's really what we weretrying to do in those earlier
episodes I often think about.
The story of God is first andforemost, the person and work of
Jesus.
And then how that greater storythen informs smaller stories,
one of which is racial andethnic reconciliation.
It's not the main story of theBible but it's one of the
stories that I think unfoldsfrom creation, where God creates
(01:17):
humans in his image.
That theology of the Imago Dei,I think, is so important.
That gives us not racial orethnic identity but identity
grounded on God's love for us,that he creates us in his image
to be a icon, a steward of hisengagement.
And in the beginning of Genesisit's a beautiful thing that we
get to co-partner with God increation.
(01:39):
The fall obviously mars thatand puts a strain on that
relationship between us and God,between us and each other,
between us and the world.
And I use Genesis 11 as acontinuation.
We know the fall happens inGenesis 3, but Genesis 11 is
kind of this continuation of thefall particular to the problems
of humanity.
You look at that story in thecreation of a tower of Babel.
(02:02):
It wants to reach the heavensto make a name for themselves,
and so it's out of selfishness,it's out of real desire to
uphold themselves rather thanhonor God, and the story
essentially ends with God comingdown and, through language,
dividing them.
So we see the people scatteredbecause of their rebellion and
judgment from God, butthankfully God doesn't give up
(02:23):
on his creation.
Rebellion and judgment from God, but thankfully God doesn't
give up on his creation.
Genesis 11 leads us to thenarrative that finds fulfillment
ultimately in Jesus Christ, andI use a passage in Revelation 5
that really tries to helpunpack what happens at the cross
.
Theologians talk a lot about theatonement and different
theories of the atonement,meaning what happens in the
death of Jesus.
Ultimately, I think the deathof Jesus provides a means of
(02:46):
salvation for us in that hebecomes sin for us, he becomes
our substitute, he dies for us.
But scripture also communicatesother things happen there, like
in Revelation 5, where it saysby your blood there's a direct
reference to the cross youransom people for God from every
tribe and language and peopleand nation.
So I think John, through theHoly Spirit, is trying to paint
(03:09):
a picture that when Jesus diedon the cross, one of the reasons
he died not the only reason,but one of the reasons he died
was to redeem ransom for himselfa multi-ethnic community.
This is why he says tribe,language, people and nation.
He doesn't just say a bunch ofpeople, he goes out of his way
to highlight distinct ethnicrealities of this ransomed
community.
(03:30):
And that happened because ofthe cross.
That happened because of thedeath and burial resurrection of
Jesus Christ, which leads usthen to the reconciliation that
is happening in Acts 2, providesus this great kind of bookmark
to Genesis 11.
We call it the day of Pentecost, or the beginning of the
universal church, where allthese people are gathered in
Jerusalem and the Holy Spiritcomes on them powerfully to
(03:50):
start this new work called thechurch.
But I use it as a bookmark toGenesis 11 because, if you
remember, in Genesis 11, godcomes down and through language
divides.
Well, in Acts, chapter two, god, the Holy Spirit, comes down
and through language unites andyou're supposed to see those
similarities and differencesbetween Genesis 11 and Acts two.
You're supposed to see thesimilarity of God coming down,
(04:12):
but in Genesis 11, he's judgingthem and they're divided,
whereas in Acts two they'reseeing the blessings of God, as
the text says, that we may seethe mighty works of God, and it
unites them to go spread thegospel.
That can only be done becausewhat Jesus accomplished on the
cross, that people from all overthe known world and if you look
at Dr Luke's explanation in thebook of Acts he lists all the
(04:34):
different people, groups fromall over the world.
He doesn't again just say abunch of people gathered
together, he lists them all out.
And I love that because I thinkhe's trying to make the point
that this is a multi-ethnic workof God which ultimately leads
to the end of the story inRevelation 7, right when John is
(04:55):
looking into the future, thisvision he's given on the Isle of
Patmos, he sees a greatmultitude that no one could
number, and again from everynation and tribe, people and
language standing before thethrone and before the lamb.
John goes out of his way againto not just say a bunch of
people, but he goes out of hisway to highlight a multi-ethnic
people because the diversitybrings greater glory to God.
Diversity in itself is not whatGod's for, but he wants
(05:18):
diversity if it brings himgreater glory.
Much like a symphony.
If you just have one personplaying a violin, they can be a
beautiful musician and it cansound lovely.
But if you pair that violinwith brass instruments and
percussions and woodwinds andall the other variety of
instruments, you get a symphony.
That's what God wants, and sowhen we get to the glory I base
(05:38):
off of this passage inRevelation 7, that we will
persist in our ethnic realities.
My family is originally fromIndia, so I'm of a darker brown
shade.
My wife's family is most likelyof Scandinavian background, so
she has a much fairer complexionthan I do, and I often joke
that when we get to heaven, godwill not take, like his cosmic,
universal, remote change, thecolor contrast on me and lighten
(06:00):
me up and darken my wife, wherewe're all just beige, right,
right, right.
God loves the diversity, peoplefrom every tribe and tongue and
nation, because it actuallybrings him greater glory, and so
that story, I think, is reallyimportant where we start.
There's a lot of debates aboutso many other issues, but
instead of starting at thedebates, what if we start with
the gospel?
and let that really inform.
How then we engage with thosediscussions?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Absolutely.
Our understanding of thescripture is what they mean,
what they truly mean, not whatwe want them to mean or not what
you know, dear Aunt Sally toldus that they should mean
according to what her littlecountry church told her that
they meant.
You know, it's really importantto really look at what they
mean.
So thank you for that and oneof the beautiful.
(06:43):
As you're talking, I'm justthinking, trying to paint a
picture for people who might notbe familiar with the campus of
Columbia InternationalUniversity and the main campus
of Ben Lippitt and how it's setup.
So we, essentially our campuses, are joined together and
something that we might take forgranted is when you pull on to
International Boulevard, it'scalled International Boulevard
and there are flags from everycountry.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I think it's intended to represent both current and
past students, so I don't thinkit's every country, but at least
students that have come fromthose countries.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yes, so there are flags all the way down the
International Boulevard so thatwe can see exactly what you're
mentioning here.
You know the language, thepeople and the tribes that are
bringing glory to God, so I lovethat we try to embody that here
, which again brings us to thenext point of discussion,
evangelical unity, which issomething that I know Columbia
International University reallyleans towards.
(07:31):
So share with us a little bit.
What does that mean?
Evangelical unity?
It's one of our corecommitments.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
We have five core commitments and this is one of
evangelical unity.
I always talk about both wordsbeing so important.
When we talk about unity, wewant to happily engage with
other Christians who claim thegospel of Jesus Christ and
recognize that there's so muchmore in common than what we
disagree.
Now that doesn't mean that wecan't have conversations and
(07:55):
healthy debates about the wayswe do church or how we
understand baptism or how wecelebrate the Lord's Supper or
all these other interestingdiscussions.
But the hope is we do it withcharity, that we do it with
humility, that we recognizethese are my brothers and
sisters in Christ, that even ifwe may not agree on these issues
, we agree that we're part ofthe family of God and so we
treat each other with the neededrespect in those conversations.
(08:18):
That's the unity part.
I also tried to really stressthe evangelical part.
The word evangelical just meansreally good news.
It's how we understand thegospel.
We want to be charitable to allbut recognize we can only be
evangelical based upon thegospel.
I often go to 1 Corinthians,chapter 15, as kind of my
central text for that, when Paulis trying to help the
Corinthian church with so manydifferent issues, he always
(08:41):
brings it back to the gospel.
For I delivered unto you, as offirst importance, the gospel,
and Paul doesn't get into thecolor of the walls in the church
, he doesn't talk about whichinstruments to play, he doesn't
talk about what mode of baptism.
What Paul says is who Jesus isand what Jesus accomplished,
based upon the authority ofGod's word.
That's the core and we havesome non-negotiables, if I can
(09:02):
say it that way, that we musthave to define ourselves as
evangelical Christians.
I realize it means there'sothers that don't agree with
that, people that are atheisticor of other religions, and I
should always be charitable, butI can't say that we're
evangelical together and that'sreally, at its core right, the
gospel of Jesus Christ.
So when it comes to an issuelike this of race, I need to
(09:22):
remember this is not necessarilya gospel core issue, right?
How you think and believe aboutthe issue of racial
reconciliation, whether it bethrough scripture or through
culture, doesn't determine ifyou're a Christian or not.
That is not what defines me asa Christian.
What defines me as a Christianis how I believe about who Jesus
is and the salvation he'soffered me.
So I hope to have charity withpeople but understand there are
(09:43):
things that really define thecore of who we are and hold that
with conviction and havecivility with other people.
That may differ on some of theother issues.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
In one of the previous episodes, you
challenged us to go and havecoffee with someone who looks
different, believes different,thinks different than we do, to
get to know them.
So, when it comes to theoverarching theme of this
podcast series, how would youencourage someone who has not
done this before, who has notsat across the table having
(10:14):
coffee with someone who looksdifferent, thinks different,
believes different than they do?
How would you encourage them tohave that evangelical unity
within this discussion?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
That's a great question would you encourage
them to have that evangelicalunity within this discussion?
That's a great question For me,one of the things I love I say
both as an educator who teachesin a graduate clinical counselor
, also as a therapist.
I have I'm a licensedprofessional counselor and I can
, I say, just as a human, I lovehearing people's stories.
I just find it fascinating justto hear the different contexts
of their life and where itstarted and some of the
(10:42):
struggles but some of the waysthey came through it.
I just I love hearing storiesfrom people and one of the ways
I think I can do this best,especially when it comes to
others I'm unfamiliar with orunfamiliar about their
experience.
Instead of trying to say, okay,help me understand this concept,
help me, let's debate thistheology.
What if, instead, we just say,can you just tell me your story?
Like, give me some informationabout you, and it could be
(11:05):
really big, from I was born at ayoung age to on to the present.
Or it could be what happenedthis past week, like give me
something that just happened.
And I realize when I startgetting into people's stories,
their narratives actually startfinding out about them.
Right, what motivates them,what scares them, what excites
them, what makes them nervous,who are the most important
people in their lives, who arethe places and situation they
(11:27):
want to avoid.
When I am willing to listen tostories, without it being this
kind of fight about these issues, I tend to start developing
relationship, and it's out ofrelationship where I can
hopefully put in that relationalequity right.
I earn the right to maybe thenunderstand some deeper issues as
well and engage with some ofthese a little more difficult
(11:47):
conversations, but I've earnedthe right because I just wanted
to get to know you right Interms of who you are.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Helps you to see people for people, instead of
seeing people as whatever theissue is at the table.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Right.
They're not a project, they'rea human right.
I mean, that's the thing mywife and I would often talk
about.
In whatever neighborhood welived in, we most definitely
want to share the gospel withour neighbors, but we made an
effort to say what if, instead,our first job is just to be a
good neighbor?
Don't get me wrong.
We want to share the gospel.
It's the most important thingthey need to hear.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
But what if we just?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I don't know have them over for burgers.
What if we just like help themmow their grass and just be a
good friend whereby, if it comesup right, if not, we at least
can just be good neighbors?
And I think that's what god'scalling us to do in a lot of
these conversations, because weget so concerned about the
conversation we forget there'sjust a real person that is just
looking to connect oh, that'srich.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That's wonderful.
Thank you for that.
Yeah, and that comes into youknow this these systematic and
individual issues, so share withus a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, I think one of the big questions that where the
rubber meets the road.
So it's one thing to say youknow all this stuff about a
biblical theology of race andethnic engagement.
I think for a lot of peoplethere's concern as to what does
this look like and then how dowe actually address it?
And so I usually get into aconversation of what I often
refer to, both systemic andindividual racism, and I try to
avoid systemic or individualracism, that it's an either or.
(13:13):
The reality is, I think we seeit on both fronts.
I think, most of us understandindividual racism meaning a
person says or does somethingtowards another person based on
their race or ethnicity thatmaligns them, that discourages
them.
I know this has happened to mewhen people spray painted on my
garage door as a little kid, gohome, get out of here.
(13:33):
That was most definitelyhurtful to me and my family.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I think most people understand that.
The one that a lot of peopleare concerned about or don't
understand or haven't beenexposed to is this idea of
systems of racism.
And one way I try to kind ofhelp them think about this, for
instance, at Ben Lippin we.
What's the mascot for BenLippin?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
The Falcon Falcon.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So I assume all of our teams are the Falcon.
So I assume if, if anyone has akid who plays for any of the
sports teams, and, more oftenthan not, if that team wins and
I'm just gushing with pride andjoy over my kids' involvement
I'm more likely than not willsay to others hey, guess what?
The Falcons won.
We won the game this past week,and I wanted to highlight how I
(14:17):
said it there.
We won.
And what I'm trying tohighlight there is, though, to
be clear, I never stepped footonto that field, I never hit the
ball once in the volleyballtournament, but yet somehow I
feel somewhat encouraged to saywe, the Falcons, won, because I
identify with the team, eventhough I never played on it.
I'm part of it, and so thisidea of engaging with a
(14:40):
community, even when we're notfully engaged with it, gives us
an idea that we're part of thesesystems.
So that can be sports teams,that can definitely be countries
.
Right, I was born and raised inCanada, and so I'll be honest
when, during the Olympics comeup, there's some division in my
household because my wife'sAmerican, I'm Canadian, and when
Team Canada wins, I say to mywife we won.
(15:00):
Let's be clear, I've never beenon an Olympic team and I will
never participate in one, and Ihad nothing to do with it, but I
used the language of we usbecause I identify with that
community.
That, to me, is one way of kindof thinking through how
sometimes we need to understandthat there are systems,
communities at play, even whenit comes to things like racism,
(15:22):
not just individual bad apples,as it were.
Sometimes there are systems atplay that are actually promoting
racist ideologies.
The question for us today is isthat where we're at in America,
was that where we were at andno longer are there?
That's the big debate.
So I'm not it's not that I'mnot interested in that debate,
but kind of like what we didbefore.
(15:42):
I want to ground this inscripture first.
Does the Bible talk aboutsystemic racism or, more
importantly, does it talk aboutsystemic evil, regardless of
what type of evil, whether it'sracism or otherwise?
To me I want to look atscripture and ask that question
Is there something in scripturethat talks about systems that
produce and encourage an evilreality in our culture?
(16:04):
And so for me it kind of goes.
There's a bunch of differentstories that highlight this.
For instance, in like Joshua 7,there's this individual who the
whole nation, whenever theywould conquer enemies, they were
told destroy everything, don'tkeep anything for yourself.
And there's this one guy whoends up keeping a little for
himself, right Achan, and hehides it underneath his tent and
, of course, it comes out andhe's found out and he's like
(16:25):
yeah, I stole it, I did it.
And if you read the story inJoshua 7, not only is he
punished through capitalpunishment he's killed but also
his wife and kids are killed too.
Now, I don't know about you,but here I am in 2025 reading a
passage like this and going waita second, that seems so unfair
Achan's sin.
Why is his family being killedin light of his sin?
(16:46):
I think it's in part because inthe ancient Near East,
especially in a Middle Easterncontext, there was much more of
a community identity that if oneperson wins, we all win, but if
one person sins, we all sin andthe consequences of that extend
to us as well.
This idea, I think, issomething that's a little hard
for us in the West, becausewe're all about individualism,
(17:08):
right, we're all aboutmeritocracy and our ability to
do what we do and not because ofwhat other people do.
But in the Bible it's kind ofaccepted that you're part of
something bigger than yourself,which is why, like in Daniel 9,
when, if you read that story,daniel is reading through the
Old Testament and he realizeshow far Israel has sinned, how
far the nation has come apartfrom God.
(17:29):
So Daniel in Daniel 9 prays toGod and he says God, we have
sinned against you, we as anation have sinned.
Now again, in 2025, if I wassitting there hearing Daniel
pray this, I'd be like hey,daniel, speak for yourself.
Buddy.
Like why are you saying Isinned?
That seems unfair to implicatethe entire nation for sinning,
but in Daniel's mindset it isthe whole nation.
(17:50):
Even if it was a small group ofpeople, they represent and are
part of a larger community.
And so there are these storieswe have in scripture that I
think even at the heart of thegospel.
I had a friend of mine in highschool.
I remember he said to me Ben, Igot to be honest, I hear your
gospel, but it kind of bothersme because, if I understand it,
(18:10):
you're saying some guy namedAdam, thousands of years ago, on
the other side of the world,ate some fruit, and because of
what he did, I'm in trouble.
I was like, uh yeah, that'sabout right and I could
understand his frustration.
Right, some guy he's never met,some guy who he'll never have a
chance to engage with becausehe messed up.
I'm now messed up.
He felt that was just so unjust, so unfair.
(18:33):
But the Bible says this is true,right In Romans 5, because of
one man's sin, sin entered intothe world.
Because of one man'sdisobedience, we are all
condemned that we are part of asystem, not of just a family
like Achan, not just of a nationlike Israel, but of a community
called humanity.
We are all sinful because ofwhat one person did.
(18:53):
The good news I often try totell him is that where the first
Adam failed, a second Adamrestored.
Because of the good of thesecond Adam, we can now all have
life, not because I've earnedit, which was interesting,
because my friend he rejectedthat too.
He got really upset thatsomeone else provided a way for
him, but he wanted to do ithimself and so I always think
about my friend, as he fullyunderstood the gospel.
(19:16):
One man messed me up, one mansaves me, and he rejected both
because he was so anti andtypical to the idea that others
impact me.
I'm not part of a system, I'mmy own man, is what he would say
, to which the Bible says no,you are both your own man and
part of a system, and we need tounderstand that there is this
thing called systemic evil asmuch as there both is individual
(19:37):
evil.
That doesn't excuse individualresponsibility, and so I think
some cultures go a little toofar and say, well, it's just the
system you're in Now you needto take accountability for the
decisions you make and you willstand before God ultimately.
But that doesn't remove therealities that there are systems
in place as well.
So that's kind of my shortversion of trying to understand
it.
Does scripture, aside from theissue of racism?
(19:59):
Does scripture talk aboutsystemic evil?
And I think there are a numberof examples where it does.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Absolutely, and this has been a wonderful, a
wonderful discussion and it, youknow, it's all.
It all circles back around toscripture, coming back to
scripture, coming back to thelens of the Lord and how he
would approach our neighbors,and you know the conversations
that he would have with peopleand how he looks at us, how he
views us and how he would talkto us, and that's how we need to
(20:25):
be approaching one another,these discussions.
So I just appreciate your time,you know, over the years, not
just within these discussions,but over the years that have
allowed us to engage in thesediscussions with Ben Lippin.
So is there anything that you'dlike to share in closing with
our community, with thesediscussions?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Again, just my appreciation to Ben Lippin for
your willingness to jump into aconversation that I know is not
always the easiest but I thinkis really important, especially
as that question even mentioned.
Our community is growing andthat's a good thing.
I think we're having greaterimpact and the opportunities to
Stewart's gifts here at BenLippin.
But with that, I think, comesgreater responsibility.
The more blessing we have, themore God has called us to engage
(21:05):
, and part of that is theengagement with other
communities, other cultures,other ethnicities.
To me, if we're grounded in thegospel, if our identity is
first in Christ, that gives usallowance to engage with all
these other identities.
The way that I keep on thinkingabout it is the gospel creates
soft hearts and thick skin.
I know my identity in Christ, Iknow where I stand and so I
(21:25):
realize the thick skin comes inbecause sometimes people are not
always careful or alwaysgracious.
But my hope is that we canstill have these conversations
knowing that our ultimateidentity is rooted in the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
And understanding that sometimes I'm not always
graceful either.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Likewise, and Lord is still working on me in these
areas too.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, dr Matthew,and again, what's the best way
for people to get in touch withyou if they'd like further
clarification or if they havequestions?
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Absolutely.
I'm a professor in the GraduateClinical Counseling Programs
here at CIU, so you can alwaysreach me through my email,
benmathew at ciuedu.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Thank you so much.
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