Trauma Informed Practice with Karl Quast

Learn about trauma informed practice, and how BCHS' Karl Quast uses and promotes it within his work. Karl is a Community Connections Project Worker, based at the Bendigo Library. He supports people who are experiencing disadvantage to connect to services, or simply a conversation and a warm cuppa. This insightful episode may just change the way you view the people around you.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
When I first started we went through the project objectives, which there were like seven objectives there, and, at the end of it Kaye said, and there's a further objective and that is we're gonna be change agents.
And I've mentioned this to Kaye, I didn't say at the time, but I thought, who is this woman telling me we're gonna be change agents, we're gonna change systems and services.
Like this looks like a handful already.
Just let me get into the job and try and, you know, do some of the work first, but then realised within months that she was so right. 5 00:00:29,423.378571429 --> 00:00:35,573.378571429 This episode of the BCHS podcast talks about trauma and other sensitive topics, so may be distressing for some. 6 00:00:35,903.378571429 --> 00:00:37,583.378571429 Please listen at your own discretion. 7 00:00:39,113.378571429 --> 00:00:42,893.378571429 Welcome back to the Bendigo Community Health Services 50th anniversary podcast. 8 00:00:43,193.378571429 --> 00:00:50,783.378571429 We're celebrating half a century of care by catching up with some of our health heroes, as well as sharing bits and pieces from our past, some of which you might not know about. 9 00:00:51,683.378571429 --> 00:01:00,533.378571429 We're recording this podcast on Dja Dja Wurrung Country and pay respect to elders past and present for their continued holding of memories, traditions, stories, and culture. 10 00:01:01,463.378571429 --> 00:01:05,33.378571429 My name is Emma Sartori and I'm a communications officer at BCHS. 11 00:01:05,783.378571429 --> 00:01:08,923.378571429 My guest today is our Community Connector, Karl Quast. 12 00:01:09,233.378571429 --> 00:01:13,283.378571429 He's a man on a mission to help our city's most vulnerable connect with support services. 13 00:01:13,733.378571429 --> 00:01:19,223.378571429 He's got a background working in community mental health and decades of experience working with people with complex needs. 14 00:01:19,763.378571429 --> 00:01:25,283.378571429 He's based out of the Bendigo Library and as well as being there for community members experiencing tough times. 15 00:01:25,663.378571429 --> 00:01:34,583.378571429 Karl's also been mentoring library staff, providing a listening ear and workplace learning opportunities on trauma-informed practices and how they can be incorporated in daily life. 16 00:01:35,438.378571429 --> 00:01:41,858.37857143 He's passionate about providing a non-judgmental space for anyone he comes in contact with and truly believes in the power of connection. 17 00:01:42,248.37857143 --> 00:01:42,688.37857143 Hi Karl. 18 00:01:43,268.37857143 --> 00:01:43,808.37857143 Hi Emma. 19 00:01:43,808.37857143 --> 00:01:44,258.37857143 Thank you. 20 00:01:44,348.37857143 --> 00:01:45,758.37857143 Thanks for that nice introduction. 21 00:01:45,818.37857143 --> 00:01:46,598.37857143 You're welcome. 22 00:01:47,178.37857143 --> 00:01:50,508.37857143 I wanna start off with a quote that you've used in your training sessions. 23 00:01:50,538.37857143 --> 00:01:52,578.37857143 It really kind of struck a chord with me. 24 00:01:52,728.37857143 --> 00:01:52,998.37857143 Yep. 25 00:01:53,208.37857143 --> 00:02:00,198.37857143 It's by German writer Johann Goethe, and he says, "treat a person as they appear to be and you make them worse. 26 00:02:00,738.37857143 --> 00:02:07,128.37857143 Treat a person as if they were what they could potentially be, and they may move towards who they're capable of becoming." 27 00:02:07,818.37857143 --> 00:02:18,128.37857143 Why does that quote resonate with you and the work you do? I guess the first thing that comes to mind, it makes me think back to when I first found that quote, which was quite a while ago now, probably over a decade ago. 28 00:02:18,368.37857143 --> 00:02:25,233.37857143 And I had a book, I still have the book where I'd write down things that would resonate with me, either in life or in the work that I was doing. 29 00:02:25,233.37857143 --> 00:02:35,643.37857143 And then, I was working for Parkville College, which was run in the school, in the youth prisons in Victoria, and saw that they had a framed thing of that quote there as well. 30 00:02:35,673.37857143 --> 00:02:42,793.37857143 And it just reinforced that seeing the world that way and thinking like that it had value. 31 00:02:42,898.37857143 --> 00:03:00,923.37857143 And I guess it's just what I've seen works, you know, in doing the work that I get to do is that if you treat someone through the lens of stigma or discrimination or whatever it is that you may see them as, and we all have those discriminatory thoughts. 32 00:03:00,923.37857143 --> 00:03:02,83.37857143 I mean, I have them as well. 33 00:03:02,143.37857143 --> 00:03:03,693.37857143 It's just part of human nature. 34 00:03:04,603.37857143 --> 00:03:07,793.37857143 But if we treat someone like that, then we kind of push them into this corner. 35 00:03:07,793.37857143 --> 00:03:09,593.37857143 We other them, we dehumanize them. 36 00:03:09,648.37857143 --> 00:03:21,918.37857143 And what I saw, especially when working with young people in the youth justice system, young men in particular, who'd been incarcerated, was that you just perpetuate the problem by perpetuating this narrative that they're no good. 37 00:03:22,121.71190476 --> 00:03:25,31.71190476 I did see a lot of that in those environments as well. 38 00:03:25,31.71190476 --> 00:03:32,691.71190476 A lot of staff members who, for whatever reason, whether be it safety reasons or whatever, but they stepped more into the lens of discrimination and stigmatizing the young people. 39 00:03:32,691.71190476 --> 00:03:34,281.71190476 And you saw the behaviors that came from that. 40 00:03:34,386.71190476 --> 00:03:47,226.71190476 And you saw that when you looked past that and saw the person and saw the potential that they had and who they could become and treated them like that there's room for, for genuine human connection. 41 00:03:47,256.71190476 --> 00:03:55,476.71190476 I used to refer to the young men in there as a collectives gentleman and I got pushback from them sometimes of like, Karl, we're not gentlemen. 42 00:03:55,476.71190476 --> 00:03:58,536.71190476 I'll try not to swear, during this podcast so you don't have to edit it too much. 43 00:03:58,836.71190476 --> 00:04:05,76.71190476 But Karl, we're not gentlemen, we're, you know, we're effing crooks, we're crims and stuff like that, and trying to have that conversation with them. 44 00:04:05,76.71190476 --> 00:04:07,746.71190476 Well, that may be how you're seen by some pockets of society. 45 00:04:07,746.71190476 --> 00:04:11,496.71190476 It may have been how you're labeled, but it's not how you're seen by everybody. 46 00:04:12,441.71190476 --> 00:04:13,731.71190476 And it's not who you have to be. 47 00:04:13,831.71190476 --> 00:04:16,981.71190476 You're more than just some of the behaviors that you've exhibited. 48 00:04:17,404.81190476 --> 00:04:26,584.81190476 I wanna acknowledge that your role is a collaboration between BCHS, the City of Greater Bendigo Council and Goldfields Library Corporation, and it's a first for Bendigo. 49 00:04:26,764.81190476 --> 00:04:39,579.81190476 And given that you're based in the Bendigo Library, a new chapter, if you will, how has that felt stepping into a role that's completely new, but for which there's a clear need and can you talk to the need for your role? Yeah. 50 00:04:39,629.81190476 --> 00:04:41,669.81190476 So it's a big question to answer, to be honest. 51 00:04:42,89.81190476 --> 00:04:46,469.81190476 It's kind of felt all the things, it's felt a bit intimidating at times. 52 00:04:46,499.81190476 --> 00:04:49,589.81190476 It's felt a bit isolating at times. 53 00:04:49,689.81190476 --> 00:04:51,519.81190476 But it's been wonderful. 54 00:04:51,549.81190476 --> 00:04:57,689.81190476 It's gotta be the most satisfaction I've had in a job working in these type of fields. 55 00:04:57,769.81190476 --> 00:04:59,59.81190476 And there is a huge need for it. 56 00:04:59,206.47857143 --> 00:05:04,486.47857143 The real crux of the role is the idea of meeting people where they're at. 57 00:05:04,486.47857143 --> 00:05:08,896.47857143 And I believe that was put in the library, the idea of me meeting people where they're at physically. 58 00:05:09,526.47857143 --> 00:05:13,786.47857143 But the role enables to meet people where they're at psychosocially as well. 59 00:05:13,786.47857143 --> 00:05:18,256.47857143 So taking into context what's going on in people's lives, what's happened before in their lives. 60 00:05:19,166.47857143 --> 00:05:22,196.47857143 The role doesn't come with any expectations of the people I'm supporting. 61 00:05:22,196.47857143 --> 00:05:25,566.47857143 It doesn't come with you missed three appointments, you're out, you know, see you later. 62 00:05:26,286.47857143 --> 00:05:30,996.47857143 Um, so the latest census data showed there was a huge increase in people experiencing homelessness. 63 00:05:31,146.47857143 --> 00:05:33,216.47857143 It's been seen a lot in the Bendigo community. 64 00:05:33,786.47857143 --> 00:05:40,506.47857143 The library is the last kind of place that they can go to where it's supervised. 65 00:05:40,506.47857143 --> 00:05:43,206.47857143 They don't have to buy anything, nothing's expected of them. 66 00:05:43,656.47857143 --> 00:05:50,826.47857143 It has a real community mindset where during winter, anytime of the year, they'll allow people just to come in and pull up a beanbag and sleep for hours if they want to. 67 00:05:51,396.47857143 --> 00:05:59,276.47857143 So people are coming to the library, but due to the complexities that they're faced with in their live a lot of services aren't able to reach them. 68 00:05:59,276.47857143 --> 00:06:01,766.47857143 People don't have phones, they don't have addresses. 69 00:06:02,386.47857143 --> 00:06:08,906.47857143 When we look at say Maslow's hierarchy of needs, their needs of safety and shelter is the most prominent need for each day. 70 00:06:09,76.47857143 --> 00:06:21,751.47857143 So the idea of going off to an appointment to address their alcohol and other drug use or their mental health or some those things, they're really important for people and they wanna move towards that, but that's so far into the future. 71 00:06:21,821.47857143 --> 00:06:26,201.47857143 There's this thing called scarcity mentality that people aren't able to see past what's right in front of them. 72 00:06:26,301.47857143 --> 00:06:41,301.47857143 And I think that putting this role in the library is really acknowledging that and going, okay, well, rather than expecting people to adapt to the services that are here, how about we adapt a service to meet the needs of people who are kind of being pushed out of the other services. 73 00:06:41,581.47857143 --> 00:06:43,261.47857143 So it's quite opportunistic in a way. 74 00:06:43,261.47857143 --> 00:06:44,281.47857143 Massively opportunistic. 75 00:06:44,281.47857143 --> 00:06:46,771.47857143 It's a word I've used so much over the last couple of years. 76 00:06:47,21.47857143 --> 00:06:51,921.47857143 Opportunistic, ad hoc, you know, and I'll tell a little bit of the story. 77 00:06:52,251.47857143 --> 00:07:04,446.47857143 I think Kaye, my previous manager won't mind this, but when I first started we went through the project objectives, which there were like seven objectives there, and, at the end of it Kaye said, and there's a further objective and that is we're gonna be change agents. 78 00:07:04,926.47857143 --> 00:07:11,116.47857143 And I've mentioned this to Kaye, I didn't say at the time, but I thought, who is this woman telling me we're gonna be change agents, we're gonna change systems and services. 79 00:07:11,116.47857143 --> 00:07:13,396.47857143 Like this looks like a handful already. 80 00:07:13,396.47857143 --> 00:07:20,891.47857143 Just let me get into the job and try and, you know, do some of the work first, but then realised within months that she was so right. 81 00:07:20,981.47857143 --> 00:07:30,71.47857143 That a huge part of this is trying to advocate for people, enable services to change their approach in the way that they treat people, the way they offer services. 82 00:07:30,126.47857143 --> 00:07:40,705.47857143 The way they intake people into their services so that they are more accessible for the group of people who are spending a lot of time at the Bendigo Library and around the Bendigo Library. 83 00:07:41,245.47857143 --> 00:07:45,625.47857143 And the other really important part is that supporting and mentoring and training of staff. 84 00:07:45,745.47857143 --> 00:07:50,815.47857143 I speak to people who have been working in the Bendigo Library for a long time, you know, 30 years, 20 years. 85 00:07:50,815.47857143 --> 00:08:07,20.47857143 There's so much experience there, and what I hear is that t here's always been that group of people that have been on the outskirts of society that utilize the library, and there's always been the behavioral issues that come into the library, but it seems to be growing as the issues in the community grow. 86 00:08:07,630.47857143 --> 00:08:19,600.47857143 The idea of this role being based in the library and supporting library staff is not to try and turn library staff into community workers or social workers, but it's a real acknowledgement of the environment that they work in. 87 00:08:19,655.47857143 --> 00:08:27,985.47857143 And maybe trying to model some behaviors and give a few little tips and techniques of how they can interact with people who may have complex behaviors. 88 00:08:28,285.47857143 --> 00:08:33,445.47857143 So your title, which we've both mentioned, Community Connector, let's break it down a little bit more. 89 00:08:33,445.47857143 --> 00:08:47,915.47857143 What is a Community Connector and what do you do exactly? The relationship part of what I do is the most fundamental aspect, and we talked about that quote before, so genuine human connection is what I want to offer people as a foundational level. 90 00:08:48,75.47857143 --> 00:09:20,475.47857143 When you're working with people who are at this point of their lives, where they're experiencing homelessness, where they have substance use issues, where they have mental ill health, where they have physical ill health, where they have disability, and the vast majority of people that I'm supporting would have all of those, let alone just one or two of them, you are trying to support a cohort of people who have had services in their lives forever and a day, had people paid to be in their lives forever and a day and have been let down by services and people being paid to be in their lives for a long time. 91 00:09:20,655.47857143 --> 00:09:35,955.47857143 So I try and come from the approach that I'm not just another person paid to be in their life and the only way I'm ever gonna get anywhere with them and support them and walk beside them to whatever it is they want to achieve with their life or the time that I'm supporting them, is by building a strong relationship. 92 00:09:36,165.47857143 --> 00:09:39,315.47857143 And then over time, playing the long game. 93 00:09:40,95.47857143 --> 00:09:47,685.47857143 We talk about, you know, things that they want to achieve, and it's really open in the way that I'm able to support people, which has been wonderful. 94 00:09:47,685.47857143 --> 00:09:52,320.47857143 So we go from simple things like offering a space for somebody to have a chat. 95 00:09:52,420.47857143 --> 00:09:59,490.47857143 Which people really appreciate that, it doesn't matter what part of life you're in, what your income is, what your living situation is. 96 00:10:00,430.47857143 --> 00:10:09,640.47857143 To genuinely feel heard, to not be judged, to not have someone just try and just fix or take ownership of the problems immediately It takes loneliness away. 97 00:10:09,700.47857143 --> 00:10:10,270.47857143 Yeah. 98 00:10:10,270.47857143 --> 00:10:10,780.47857143 For a little while. 99 00:10:10,830.47857143 --> 00:10:12,60.47857143 And brings that human connection. 100 00:10:12,60.47857143 --> 00:10:13,860.47857143 And then from there, it's okay. 101 00:10:15,45.47857143 --> 00:10:26,955.47857143 Once this person sees that I'm here for the right reasons and not just here just to be paid or be another service in their life, then hopefully we can build that relationship up to a point where they'll trust me to try and make some appointments with them. 102 00:10:27,105.47857143 --> 00:10:33,495.47857143 I like the fact that, you know, we say opportunistic, that the job is even opportunistic in the way of what it provides. 103 00:10:33,645.47857143 --> 00:10:33,825.47857143 Okay. 104 00:10:33,825.47857143 --> 00:11:00,945.47857143 What is needed? Do we have the capability of providing that and if not, do we, are we able to link somebody in with a service that will provide it and advocate for them in that space? You know, we've gone through things like getting people's birth certificates that don't have any identifying documents, all the way through to people into dental care to having people treated for chronic illnesses, to providing food, we get blankets donated clothes. 105 00:11:00,945.47857143 --> 00:11:04,485.47857143 We've got a shoe store that donates old running shoes to us that we hand out to people. 106 00:11:04,485.47857143 --> 00:11:10,595.47857143 So it's really, really varied and it kind of can be anything and has been over the past couple of years. 107 00:11:10,665.47857143 --> 00:11:24,885.47857143 So it seems like the power of listening is the main connector to building the relationship and the playing the long game and showing an interest in, Hey, what do you want for your future? Yeah, absolutely. 108 00:11:24,885.47857143 --> 00:11:26,35.47857143 And hearing the person in the moment. 109 00:11:26,55.47857143 --> 00:11:37,615.47857143 There's, a now deceased, American psychologist, Carl Rogers, who first come up with the term client-centered therapy, which then became what we see now as person-centered approach or client-centered approach or human centered approach. 110 00:11:38,365.47857143 --> 00:11:42,555.47857143 And one of the quotes I've always liked from him was that whenever I didn't know what to do or where to go. 111 00:11:42,555.47857143 --> 00:11:44,625.47857143 I never went wrong by listening attentively. 112 00:11:44,895.47857143 --> 00:11:46,65.47857143 I don't always know what to do. 113 00:11:46,65.47857143 --> 00:11:54,445.47857143 People come to me in certain points of crisis, you know, in community housing, the house, and it's been broken into, there's domestic violence they don't feel safe at home. 114 00:11:54,655.47857143 --> 00:12:00,565.47857143 They've been to all these services and they're getting rejected or they're being treated through the lens of stigma and discrimination. 115 00:12:01,585.47857143 --> 00:12:26,515.47857143 And there's a real big part of me that wants to jump in and go, how can I fix this? Or what can I do here? But I've gotta pull myself back and go, potentially what this person needs right now is somebody just to hear just how heavy it is and how hard it is for them at the moment, and to try and sit with that, not to move too quickly away from it, you know? Because if I can't sit with it, if it makes me too uncomfortable, it's almost disrespecting the fact that they're living with it on a day-to-day basis. 116 00:12:26,515.47857143 --> 00:12:28,265.47857143 You know what I mean? Absolutely. 117 00:12:28,365.47857143 --> 00:12:34,965.47857143 So the people with complex needs that you work with are often described as having complex needs and trauma. 118 00:12:35,265.47857143 --> 00:12:41,725.47857143 So what is meant by the term complex needs and how can trauma impact a person's behavior. 119 00:12:42,325.47857143 --> 00:13:18,530.47857143 Complex needs is a real umbrella term, isn't it? It's just like a catchall thing for people, and I'm no expert into what the absolute definition of it is, but it's talking about people who potentially have, you don't have to have all of them, you can have one of them, but you know, from a psychiatric illness to substance use issues to issues going on with the court, to housing issues, to family violence issues, to all these things which adds so much stress to the person that it's very complex for them to go about the day-to-day stuff, to maintain day-to-day, jobs, relationships. 120 00:13:19,80.47857143 --> 00:13:24,85.47857143 And the other part of that question around trauma and what that can do to a person. 121 00:13:24,85.47857143 --> 00:13:32,815.47857143 And this is not something that's like an easy sort of 30 second soundbite, you know, and, and as well I'm not some sort of absolute source of knowledge on this stuff. 122 00:13:32,815.47857143 --> 00:13:46,715.47857143 But what I've learned through my studies and through the work that I've been able to do is that the impact that trauma has, and it's been well studied, on the brain, on the body's stress response system, is profound. 123 00:13:46,865.47857143 --> 00:13:48,305.47857143 You know, it really is profound. 124 00:13:48,695.47857143 --> 00:13:54,5.47857143 I can't imagine how traumatic it would be if all of a sudden I was sleeping at the town hall in Bendigo. 125 00:13:54,75.47857143 --> 00:13:55,965.47857143 If I didn't know what was gonna go on day to day. 126 00:13:55,995.47857143 --> 00:13:57,855.47857143 I'm injecting methamphetamine. 127 00:13:57,935.47857143 --> 00:14:01,75.47857143 It would be hugely traumatic for me to be experiencing life like that. 128 00:14:01,75.47857143 --> 00:14:03,745.47857143 So they're also existing in a trauma saturated environment. 129 00:14:04,285.47857143 --> 00:14:14,970.47857143 But one of the main things we see is that if we think about the brain like an upside down thumb, the brain develops from bottom to top and from inside and out as we age. 130 00:14:15,210.47857143 --> 00:14:22,140.47857143 And the brainstem is one of the first things that develops, and that also gets referred to in some of the literature on it as like the reptilian brain. 131 00:14:22,200.47857143 --> 00:14:26,30.47857143 And that can be the automatic sort of things like your heart rate and your breathing. 132 00:14:26,250.47857143 --> 00:14:31,680.47857143 At the very top we have the cortex, which is for more like the logical brain and what's referred to as a thinking brain. 133 00:14:31,710.47857143 --> 00:14:41,700.47857143 So what we see in people who've experienced a lot of trauma is that their stress response system, this brainstem is wired differently So their resting heart rate may be higher than say what yours and mine is. 134 00:14:41,800.47857143 --> 00:14:49,755.47857143 So sitting here right now, i'm a bit nervous, my resting heart rate may be about 65 beats per minute or something like that. 135 00:14:50,235.47857143 --> 00:14:52,665.47857143 On a regular day i'm sitting around, it might be around 52. 136 00:14:53,65.47857143 --> 00:15:04,495.47857143 We put, heart rate monitors on young men in remand who are going up to school at Parkville College and Parkville Youth Justice Center, and they were coming into the classroom with heart rates of, you know, the 1 10, 1 20 sort of thing. 137 00:15:04,495.47857143 --> 00:15:04,670.47857143 Oh, wow. 138 00:15:05,90.47857143 --> 00:15:09,290.47857143 So you could imagine they're revving much higher than what the average person would be. 139 00:15:09,620.47857143 --> 00:15:11,505.47857143 And that's before anything's even happened. 140 00:15:11,735.47857143 --> 00:15:14,60.47857143 Like it's before they're having a reaction to anything. 141 00:15:14,60.47857143 --> 00:15:14,750.47857143 Yeah, absolutely. 142 00:15:14,800.47857143 --> 00:15:25,770.47857143 And what we see with that then is that it becomes harder for people to stay in the cortex and the thinking brain, and they jump to fight or flight or the reptilian brain a lot quicker. 143 00:15:26,280.47857143 --> 00:15:33,690.47857143 And not only do they go there a lot quicker, but that sometimes they'll go there for things that can be perceived as well, that just came outta nowhere. 144 00:15:33,940.47857143 --> 00:15:34,690.47857143 That came outta the blue. 145 00:15:34,690.47857143 --> 00:15:35,710.47857143 That wasn't that big a deal. 146 00:15:35,710.47857143 --> 00:15:49,551.47857143 Like why did the person behave like that? And to boil it down to, I guess one basic thing, what trauma, especially from a early age and complex repeated trauma that happens to people is that they idle at 75, they idle at 80, they idle at 90. 147 00:15:49,601.47857143 --> 00:16:10,131.47857143 So a small thing can set them into fight or flight, and all of a sudden they're not in control of their behaviors, of their temper and those sorts of things And if you're seeing something like that play out in public, then the stigma and the discrimination can come in and that obviously doesn't help the person experiencing that reaction. 148 00:16:10,191.47857143 --> 00:16:10,791.47857143 Absolutely. 149 00:16:10,791.47857143 --> 00:16:16,691.47857143 It can perpetuate that narrative that, you know, people in these situations just behave like this or those sorts of things. 150 00:16:16,691.47857143 --> 00:16:26,911.47857143 A lot of the work that I do when I try and talk to people around deescalation and when I'm maintaining relationships with people I learned just through practice working in the Youth Justice Center. 151 00:16:26,961.47857143 --> 00:16:36,141.47857143 And what I learned through deescalation is there's certain ways that you can behave in the ways that you can interact with people that will give them the best chance to stay in the thinking brain. 152 00:16:36,471.47857143 --> 00:16:39,291.47857143 And you'll lessen the chance of them going to the reptilian brain. 153 00:16:39,531.47857143 --> 00:16:42,561.4785714 Doesn't always work because sometimes the situation's out of your control. 154 00:16:42,561.4785714 --> 00:16:48,721.4785714 But how we relate to people, how we present ourselves to people, predictability and consistency, promoting safety. 155 00:16:49,61.4785714 --> 00:16:58,481.4785714 You know, being aware of the cadence of my speech, the cadence of how I walk, and those sorts of things that we can do; trying to be the center point, the regulating point that people can come back down to. 156 00:16:58,481.4785714 --> 00:17:08,586.4785714 So if they're sitting at 80, if I can provide that regulation and help them come back down to say a 60 then I'm giving them the best chance to behave as their best selves. 157 00:17:08,706.4785714 --> 00:17:15,296.4785714 Again, almost coming back to that quote of, you know, enabling the person to reach their potential to behave as the person that they want to be. 158 00:17:15,536.4785714 --> 00:17:21,176.4785714 So working for a place like BCHS, I've heard the term trauma informed practice quite a bit. 159 00:17:21,696.4785714 --> 00:17:26,301.4785714 You embody it every day with what you do and how you do it. 160 00:17:26,441.4785714 --> 00:17:29,741.4785714 And you've also been running education sessions on it with the library staff. 161 00:17:29,801.4785714 --> 00:17:35,971.4785714 And from what I understand, they've had a huge impact on the staff, especially in their dealings with the patrons who have complex needs. 162 00:17:36,481.4785714 --> 00:17:43,26.4785714 For listeners who don't know the term, can we talk a little bit about trauma informed practice and what it is? For sure. 163 00:17:43,26.4785714 --> 00:17:45,131.4785714 So again, I'm not the absolute source of knowledge on this. 164 00:17:45,131.4785714 --> 00:17:50,221.4785714 There'll be other people in the field that will have different sort of views in what it is and how we do it. 165 00:17:50,221.4785714 --> 00:17:58,951.4785714 But my best understanding and best way of practicing and describing it is that, so trauma informed practice is basically exactly what it says it is. 166 00:17:58,951.4785714 --> 00:18:14,616.4785714 So being informed by the understanding of the impact of trauma and what that has on a person, what it has on their brain, what it has on their stress response system, what it has on their ability to interact with people and to maintain a certain level of behaviors. 167 00:18:15,256.4785714 --> 00:18:18,16.4785714 Deescalation is completely through that trauma informed lens. 168 00:18:18,16.4785714 --> 00:18:19,666.4785714 This is what trauma does to people. 169 00:18:19,666.4785714 --> 00:18:28,711.4785714 So I know that this person will be idling at 80 and will be much quicker into a fight or flight than say, somebody who hasn't had the life experiences that they've had. 170 00:18:29,191.4785714 --> 00:18:34,741.4785714 So I'm gonna adapt the way that I present myself, the way that I interact with them, the way that I speak to them. 171 00:18:35,251.4785714 --> 00:18:39,406.4785714 There's so much to it, But also some of it can be really, really basic. 172 00:18:39,406.4785714 --> 00:18:45,956.4785714 So even like the way that I stand when I'm talking to people, I try not to stand chest to chest, face to face with people. 173 00:18:45,956.4785714 --> 00:18:48,716.4785714 I try and stand slightly off to the side a little bit. 174 00:18:48,716.4785714 --> 00:18:49,916.4785714 So that's not as confronting. 175 00:18:50,476.4785714 --> 00:19:03,566.4785714 I try to be aware of the power imbalance that exists between the person and myself, myself as the paid person in the situation and try and reduce that power imbalance by having level eye contacts or try not to stand over people. 176 00:19:03,696.4785714 --> 00:19:14,901.4785714 One of my favorite things to do, and it's not easy to do in every situation, but say I'm sitting outside the library with somebody to sit next to them and we look the same way and occasionally what we're talking, we will we'll look and make eye contact. 177 00:19:14,981.4785714 --> 00:19:17,201.4785714 But for a lot of it, we're not making eye contact. 178 00:19:17,621.4785714 --> 00:19:29,31.4785714 So being aware of how I interact with them, but also beyond that I think a really key part of it is seeing the person past the behaviors. 179 00:19:29,571.4785714 --> 00:19:39,861.4785714 The longest study on human development is still been undertaken in the United Kingdom, and at this stage it's gone over seven generations with over, I think, 70,000 participants. 180 00:19:40,201.4785714 --> 00:19:44,281.4785714 They've tracked people since World War II from birth and throughout their lives. 181 00:19:44,671.4785714 --> 00:20:00,511.4785714 And the two most crucial findings that have come out of it, and there's been lots of findings and lots of other studies and research papers that have come out of this one study, were basically, your life is much more likely to go down a certain path if you are born into poverty and if you have parents that aren't engaged. 182 00:20:00,871.4785714 --> 00:20:02,491.4785714 So poverty and parenting matter. 183 00:20:02,671.4785714 --> 00:20:10,651.4785714 When we think about that means that the two things that we have absolutely no choice in, no say in whatsoever, matter the most in our lives. 184 00:20:11,471.4785714 --> 00:20:19,661.4785714 And so when I really sit with that, I go, okay, so where I'm at with my life isn't any of my own good doing. 185 00:20:19,991.4785714 --> 00:20:26,171.4785714 It's the fact that I was born into a family that did okay financially, and I had parents that were really engaged in their children. 186 00:20:26,651.4785714 --> 00:20:33,671.4785714 And yes, I've had to make some choices since that, but, if I was born into the situations of some of the people that I'm supporting at the moment. 187 00:20:33,771.4785714 --> 00:20:38,91.4785714 It is much more likely than not that I would be in their situation right now. 188 00:20:38,241.4785714 --> 00:20:43,731.4785714 And so understanding that I think takes away the old Margaret Thatcher thing that like poverty was like a character flaw. 189 00:20:43,731.4785714 --> 00:20:48,861.4785714 You know, I'm a massive believer in that it's a lottery where we're born. 190 00:20:49,141.4785714 --> 00:20:50,671.4785714 Some people did okay in the lottery. 191 00:20:50,671.4785714 --> 00:20:53,461.4785714 Some people have done very well, and some people have done really poorly. 192 00:20:54,1.4785714 --> 00:21:05,951.4785714 And as a society and, especially as a community health organization, I think those of us who have done okay in that lottery have a responsibility not to just look past the people who have not done so well, because it's by no choice of their own. 193 00:21:05,961.4785714 --> 00:21:33,31.4785714 But I think we have a choice in the story we tell ourselves about the people that we are supporting and if we try to understand that people have had traumas in their lives, then that trauma informed practice is seeing the person behind whatever behaviors they're exhibiting, seeing the child that missed out on the relationships and the bonds growing up and trying to do our best to provide that connection, that support and that non-judgmental, relationship. 194 00:21:33,571.4785714 --> 00:21:47,891.4785714 So in a moment where everything is heightened and maybe someone's feeling threatened, maybe both people are feeling threatened, how can you keep your calm and bring in trauma informed practice? Yeah. 195 00:21:47,891.4785714 --> 00:21:56,41.4785714 It's a really good question and it really is difficult and that's kind of what I see the craft of doing this work is, and it's a craft that I'm always working on. 196 00:21:56,601.4785714 --> 00:22:05,541.4785714 How you remain calm in those situations is it takes a lot of practice. 197 00:22:06,81.4785714 --> 00:22:08,931.4785714 And a lot of reflection and understanding. 198 00:22:09,231.4785714 --> 00:22:13,101.4785714 That wasn't about me, that was about the trauma that they've experienced throughout their lives. 199 00:22:13,101.4785714 --> 00:22:16,761.4785714 It's about the lack of power or control, the trauma they're currently experiencing. 200 00:22:16,971.4785714 --> 00:22:23,571.4785714 And that the role I play can either heighten these situations or to try and deescalate them. 201 00:22:24,111.4785714 --> 00:22:35,646.4785714 And so I've tried to do a fair bit of practice around how I try and deescalate or regulate these situations so they don't get to the point where you have that type of conflict and a lot of that is remaining calm. 202 00:22:35,776.4785714 --> 00:22:39,196.4785714 A lot of it is being what you want the other person to be. 203 00:22:39,586.4785714 --> 00:22:53,756.4785714 That doesn't mean you always get it in return, or doesn't mean you get it the same way that you give it, but I think it's massively important and there's a line though, isn't there when we talked about predictability and consistency earlier, that's predictability and consistency in boundaries though, as well. 204 00:22:53,756.4785714 --> 00:22:58,286.4785714 So there's a line between being submissive and being non-confrontational. 205 00:22:58,646.4785714 --> 00:23:12,296.4785714 So I'm all for being non-confrontational in the way that I present myself, the way that I interact with people, the way I build relationships, the way that I may apologize after I've done something that, you know, probably I didn't do the way that I would've liked or wasn't received the way that I would've liked. 206 00:23:13,166.4785714 --> 00:23:17,256.4785714 But I'm also big on having boundaries and not being submissive. 207 00:23:17,351.4785714 --> 00:23:25,91.4785714 But I think sometimes when we're in those points of conflict, when things are really heightened, some people move to, I've gotta put the boundary in place now. 208 00:23:25,91.4785714 --> 00:23:26,471.4785714 You can't talk to me like this. 209 00:23:26,471.4785714 --> 00:23:27,461.4785714 They take it personally. 210 00:23:27,756.4785714 --> 00:23:28,926.4785714 You can't do that to me. 211 00:23:28,926.4785714 --> 00:23:30,426.4785714 You can't speak to me, you can't. 212 00:23:30,456.4785714 --> 00:23:39,186.4785714 Whatever it may be where it's taken me a lot of practice and a lot of experience to realize that it doesn't matter how they talk to me. 213 00:23:39,681.4785714 --> 00:23:40,251.4785714 It doesn't matter. 214 00:23:40,251.4785714 --> 00:23:41,31.4785714 They don't know me. 215 00:23:41,91.4785714 --> 00:23:42,561.4785714 They don't really know who I am. 216 00:23:42,721.4785714 --> 00:23:43,771.4785714 Or that much about me. 217 00:23:43,771.4785714 --> 00:23:58,606.4785714 So they can say the things that they want to say about me, and then post that situation when things aren't as heightened, when they're settled down, whether it's later that day, the next day, the next time I see the person, trying to approach it to have the conversation around that sort of thing. 218 00:23:59,106.4785714 --> 00:24:04,556.4785714 You've talked a lot about the physical aspect of how to deescalate a situation. 219 00:24:04,556.4785714 --> 00:24:07,176.4785714 So let's talk about language and trauma informed practice. 220 00:24:07,176.4785714 --> 00:24:12,336.4785714 Is there specific language we can use? There is, I mean, language is ever evolving. 221 00:24:12,546.4785714 --> 00:24:14,396.4785714 And again, i'm still learning. 222 00:24:14,396.4785714 --> 00:24:19,356.4785714 I'm still getting it wrong in spaces and, one of the things you hear from people is, I'm afraid to get it wrong or whatever. 223 00:24:20,46.4785714 --> 00:24:27,76.4785714 I think if we get it wrong and we acknowledge that we got it wrong, and I've done that before and just apologize, you know, I shouldn't said this, I shouldn't have said that. 224 00:24:27,76.4785714 --> 00:24:28,186.4785714 I shouldn't have said it that way. 225 00:24:28,586.4785714 --> 00:24:31,721.4785714 I think the most common response is that's okay. 226 00:24:31,851.4785714 --> 00:24:42,506.4785714 And we learn from it when we acknowledge our mistakes, but, what I try and use in this space, in the space of supporting people with complex needs, people with mental ill health, people with substance use issues. 227 00:24:42,506.4785714 --> 00:24:44,906.4785714 I mean, you notice when I'm talking it's person's first. 228 00:24:45,206.4785714 --> 00:24:47,126.4785714 So I try and use person first language. 229 00:24:47,226.4785714 --> 00:24:52,16.4785714 And try not to label people in the collective, you know, the homeless is something you hear occasionally. 230 00:24:52,150.4316327 --> 00:25:12,765.4316327 My wife has a physical disability and we speak about language a lot at home and that other in language, you know, the homeless, the disabled, and how that pushes people outside of the norms of society, onto the outskirts of society, and also it puts up the idea that everybody in that situation is the same which they're not. 231 00:25:13,305.4316327 --> 00:25:19,85.4316327 There's a saying in the disability communities that if you've met one person with a disability, you've met one person with a disability. 232 00:25:19,295.4316327 --> 00:25:29,135.4316327 So really understanding each person is a unique individual, even though their situations may be the same, and there may be some similar understandings and approaches that we can have. 233 00:25:29,750.4316327 --> 00:25:32,210.4316327 And trying to utilize that person first language. 234 00:25:32,360.4316327 --> 00:25:36,320.4316327 So person experiencing homelessness, person who uses substances. 235 00:25:36,370.4316327 --> 00:25:50,890.4316327 And I feel, for me it has a really big impact 'cause I believe language is massively important because the way we speak about somebody really influences the way we see somebody and influences the way we think about somebody. 236 00:25:51,210.4316327 --> 00:26:05,670.4316327 And I think if we're ever gonna get to the point where we're trying to treat people with in a nonjudgmental, genuine way then we need to be really careful in the way that we think about people, the way that we see people and the way that we speak about people. 237 00:26:05,950.4316327 --> 00:26:18,740.4316327 So when we're talking about trauma informed practice and incorporating it into our everyday lives, it's use person centric language, use body language that isn't confrontational. 238 00:26:18,920.4316327 --> 00:26:26,300.4316327 It's trying to view the person with unconditional positive regard and just seeing past their behavior. 239 00:26:26,300.4316327 --> 00:26:26,480.4316327 Yeah. 240 00:26:27,245.4316327 --> 00:26:28,385.4316327 Those are the main points. 241 00:26:28,415.4316327 --> 00:26:36,915.4316327 So the unconditional positive regard comes from Carl Rogers' client-centered therapy but the three key pillars of that were unconditional positive regard, congruence. 242 00:26:37,35.4316327 --> 00:26:39,825.4316327 So your words, your actions, and your feelings matching up. 243 00:26:40,425.4316327 --> 00:26:43,155.4316327 And so I can't do any of the work that I do if I'm not congruent. 244 00:26:43,185.4316327 --> 00:26:58,360.4316327 If I say one thing but I behave in a way that opposes what I've said the street smarts of people and their relationship smarts because they've had to build these smarts to maintain their safety from an early age is that they'll smell bullshit straight away. 245 00:26:58,440.4316327 --> 00:27:01,940.4316327 And they may not even say anything to me, but they'll just move further away from me. 246 00:27:02,220.4316327 --> 00:27:03,570.4316327 And I, I can no longer support 'em. 247 00:27:03,570.4316327 --> 00:27:09,330.4316327 So being congruent, having my actions and my words match up, being who I say I am is massively important. 248 00:27:09,380.4316327 --> 00:27:14,490.4316327 And that empathic understanding was the other key pillar of that, which is really something that I still struggle with. 249 00:27:14,490.4316327 --> 00:27:27,490.4316327 I try to do, but the ability to really put yourself in the other person's shoes and try and view the world through their own worldviews and their understandings, can sound really easy to say, very difficult to practice and maintain. 250 00:27:28,240.4316327 --> 00:27:42,855.4316327 Even with the practice and maintaining those things, it can be easy when it's easy, but when it's really difficult, that's when it challenges, how can you hold steady to these philosophies, to these foundations of belief? And I'll just quickly link it back to that quote we mentioned earlier. 251 00:27:42,855.4316327 --> 00:28:06,505.4316327 So Carl Rogers said a similar thing, really differently, but his belief was that a person will always grow towards their potential if they're given the right environment, but a lot of people haven't been given the right environment to grow towards that potential, and so he believed that those three things, the empathic understanding, unconditional positive regard and congruence were fundamental to creating a environment for positive growth towards their potential. 252 00:28:07,285.4316327 --> 00:28:20,950.4316327 Okay, so knowing about and incorporating trauma informed practices into our everyday lives, do you think it can reduce stigma and discrimination? Yeah, that's a really good question. 253 00:28:20,950.4316327 --> 00:28:21,970.4316327 I, I believe so. 254 00:28:22,240.4316327 --> 00:28:23,320.4316327 I absolutely believe so. 255 00:28:23,320.4316327 --> 00:28:38,505.4316327 I think that even though, I still, stigma and discrimination exists within me, you know? And some of it still exists in the library, but if I think of that, I believe that this project has had an impact in reducing some of the stigma and discrimination that may have existed with people in the library. 256 00:28:38,685.4316327 --> 00:28:40,815.4316327 There's little things like learning people's names. 257 00:28:40,815.4316327 --> 00:28:43,725.4316327 The people that utilizing the library, library staff didn't know their names. 258 00:28:43,825.4316327 --> 00:28:54,925.4316327 Learning someone's name helps us to see that person as a person, as an individual can make a huge difference again, in the way that they're spoken about, the way they're thought about and the way they're looked at and the way they're interacted with. 259 00:28:54,995.4316327 --> 00:29:03,459.4316327 But I've had examples where so we've done the training with library staff and I've been based at the library for say, eight or nine months before I started the training. 260 00:29:03,459.4316327 --> 00:29:11,119.4316327 So they've watched me go about my work and I've been able to talk about the training about this is why you see me do certain things, certain ways and stuff like that. 261 00:29:11,119.4316327 --> 00:29:15,439.4316327 And it was nice to hear them afterwards go, oh, that connected the dots with, that's why you do that. 262 00:29:15,469.4316327 --> 00:29:25,159.4316327 Or, I did the training and then a week later I saw you were talking to somebody who was quite heightened and I could see you were doing all those things that you were sort of talking about in the training. 263 00:29:25,659.4316327 --> 00:29:27,534.4316327 I don't win everybody over with this approach. 264 00:29:27,534.4316327 --> 00:29:33,539.4316327 There are some people that don't really like the approach, that do I think mistake that kindness as weakness. 265 00:29:33,689.4316327 --> 00:29:44,774.4316327 But for the people who are willing to hear it or, or think about it, or reflect upon it the feedback has been overwhelming, that they've changed their practice in some way and they've seen the use in it. 266 00:29:44,834.4316327 --> 00:29:45,194.4316327 Yeah. 267 00:29:45,434.4316327 --> 00:29:46,124.4316327 That's awesome. 268 00:29:46,254.4316327 --> 00:29:50,154.4316327 Your role has clearly had an impact in the short time that it's been around. 269 00:29:50,331.0982993 --> 00:29:56,202.764966 You've shown the power of connection, the power of listening, and in taking care with the words that we use. 270 00:29:56,292.764966 --> 00:30:05,546.0982993 And in the power of meeting someone where they're at, you've really painted a picture about how important that is and I just think hats off to you for what you do. 271 00:30:06,46.0982993 --> 00:30:11,826.0982993 I hope that your role continues to make an impact and that people keep reaching out to you. 272 00:30:12,326.0982993 --> 00:30:17,991.0982993 It's always a privilege to get to talk about some of the work that I get to do and Thanks Emma thank you. 273 00:30:18,491.0982993 --> 00:30:24,401.0982993 To our listeners, if you're feeling triggered by anything we've talked about today and need to talk to someone, help is available. 274 00:30:24,701.0982993 --> 00:30:32,201.0982993 Call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or beyond blue on 1300 22 46 36. 275 00:30:33,221.0982993 --> 00:30:35,561.0982993 We look forward to connecting with you all on our next episode. 276 00:30:36,41.0982993 --> 00:30:37,631.0982993 In the meantime, stay well. 277 00:30:37,811.0982993 --> 00:30:42,891.0982993 Take care of yourself and others, and if you need assistance, jump onto bchs.com.au 278 00:30:42,911.0982993 --> 00:30:47,891.0982993 to discover how our more than 50 health and wellbeing services can help you and your loved ones.