August 26, 2025 • 50 mins
From cubbies in the bush to projects in Melbourne, London, and New York, Martin’s career has spanned continents, practices, and passions. Now an Associate at FXCollaborative, he reflects on what drives him as an architect and his advocacy for diversity through Build Out Alliance.
00:00 Intro
02:51 Designing for the end user’s needs and enjoyment
05:38 DIY projects family building and formal training
08:09 London office planting the seed for international work
11:49 Getting licensed from the UK to New York
16:19 Balancing the technical and creative sides of architecture
18:49 Taking projects from concept through to completion
21:32 Working in London compared with New York contracts
24:10 Investing time in relearning codes and licensing
26:43 Build Out Alliance advocacy and LGBTQ+ support
29:33 Splitting time between comfort and work quality
32:21 Building awareness and inclusivity in the creative industry
36:18 Gaining opportunities and confidence through Build Out Alliance
39:14 Navigating straight environments and the energy of code switching
42:40 Designing with inclusivity and community in mind4
5:11 Making the move to New York and the mainland
48:02 Supporting queer communities through architecture and advocacy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There is a lack of advocacy and support or LGBTQ plus people
within our industry. So as a gay architect, my main
goal is to be a good architect. But sometimes when you have to
put a lot of time into making sure you're not too gay or
you're not too queer or some of your mind can get used up, as
opposed to putting that all intoyour work.
(00:20):
Martin Scott is an Australian architect based in New York.
He is an associate at Ethics Collaborative, working on a wide
range of complex projects from conception to construction.
Along aside his work in practice, Martin is a director
of the Build Out Alliance, an advocate organization for
diversity and inclusivity withinthe design and the construction
industries. We did things like rebuilding
(00:40):
webshops for junior architects or students within industry,
other events like panel events, so bringing in queer architects
within the industry to talk about their experiences.
What are those kind of skills that you really lean upon when
you're leaving? It's part of our duty, I think,
as architects as well, to have care for others in the working
environment and if only speakingup if something isn't right.
(01:02):
Have you found the industry improving in in the sort of
inclusivity aspect? I think it's definitely better
than it was 1015 years ago, but there's a lot more to do.
Martin, thanks so much for joining me.
No worries. Thanks for having me, Chris.
It's a pleasure to be here. Right.
So a question that I ask all theguests on the podcast Why
(01:23):
architecture? What is it about a career in
architecture that gets you up inthe morning, that keeps you
coming back for more? It's a good question.
For me, I think it's there's multiple things.
Architecture is a creative industry, but that's also I
think a good mix of a lot of different skill sets.
(01:44):
So I'm a creative person. I think that kind of comes
naturally, but there's also a lot of complexity to it too.
So the technical side of things I'm paired with the creative
side is what really interests me.
I love a challenge and I love solving puzzles.
And every day we would say that I'm faced with definitely a
(02:07):
challenge or two. So that keeps me excited and I'm
always learning. But definitely having that
creative side to it as well is ais a big, big part of it.
Do you think that variety reallyhelps?
Because I think that's somethingthat I always kind of talk about
with people. You know, an architecture, a
career in architecture is so different every day.
You know, one minute you're drawing, one minute you're
(02:29):
solving problems on site next toyour talking to community sort
of thing. I think that's for me is the is
the real value. Exactly.
Yeah, I think it never gets dullthere.
There are some monotonous parts of, of projects, but that's
always diversified by, yeah, the, the stage of the project
that you're working on or the design of the project or yeah,
(02:50):
the client themselves and what they actually need.
And then also keeping in mind what the end users going to
debt. And that's quite an exciting
part to knowing that. I mean, you're designing this
for someone ultimately to make sure that you're providing
whatever it is they need to makethem enjoy the end, the end
product that they get. Completely.
(03:13):
So what was your route into, youknow, this career graph?
What's the, what's the sort of early upbringings?
I know you're originally from Australia and and I wonder if we
kind of talk about that sort of early upbringing and, and maybe
how that kind of led to, you know, a career in architecture.
Yeah, So I think my decision to go into architecture didn't
didn't happen until later on in high school.
(03:33):
But in the background I think back to how I grew up and I grew
up on a small farm in Tasmania and was always, I think, exposed
to a, a creative mindset. My dad was an engineer and my
mum was a teacher. And so having the mum's quite
(03:56):
creative too in, in art and thatsort of thing.
So having those two paired technical mindset and a creative
mindset, I think unconsciously prepared me for the architecture
world. But having other vivid memories,
like when I was really little, my dad would be tinkering in the
shed and I'd be at the front andhe'd bring out like there was a
(04:20):
bucket, a green bucket of nuts and bolts and a tin of nails.
And he'd just put them out the front with some tools and off
cuts of wood and things. And to say like, do what you
want and be creative with it. So I just build little models
and just from a really young agehaving that opportunity to to be
(04:41):
creative. Yeah, any of it is just going
out into the nature and and being amongst abortion with
other animals. I think having that open
mindedness to be able to kind ofgo exploring and build cubbies
and houses out of the vegetationand bits of thick bits and
(05:02):
pieces that are around you, I think was yeah, that kind of put
in my mind that I could be creative and and build things
myself. There's that lovely sort of
connection, isn't there? Yeah.
Like when you when you think like about us sort of physically
building stuff. And I suppose it's that that
sort of thing. Sometimes maybe you lose a
little bit in architecture school when it all becomes a bit
(05:23):
academic, the actual act of building.
But like you say, like having anearly experience of actually,
you know, putting things together and like you say, like
from found objects or you know, out in the out in the
environment sounds like an amazing kind of starter for it.
It was, yeah. And then actually using those, I
think once I grew up a little bit, being able to do things
(05:44):
like DLI projects with the family, like all of us kids
would, I think, help whenever, whenever mum and dad needed a
hand. So we're always like building
things growing up. And then once I went into
architecture school, yeah, I wasactually able to put some of
those early skills to use and actually formalize some of my
(06:06):
training. What was your early experience
of architecture school like? Like did you, did you naturally
sort of find yourself in, you know, being able to communicate
your ideas well and you know, incrits and things like that
because it's something that, youknow, people.
I mean, architecture school is an incredibly kind of bit of a
baptism of fire for people and aquite difficult experience for
(06:28):
some. Like what was, what's your kind
of reflection on that time period?
Yeah, I think being open for, open to criticism, it is, it is
a hard thing, but it's somethingthat I was always open to
receiving. Having to not take things
personally, which is difficult because when you put your design
out there, you're, you're putting yourself, this project
(06:49):
represents you. And so you're putting a lot of
personal elements too out there.And to receive criticism on that
can be difficult. But I, I've always had the
mindset that I'm going to learn from whatever it is other people
take from my work and I can use that however I best feel.
(07:12):
So I think not taking things toopersonally, they're not taking,
they're not doing it maliciously, they're doing it to
give you honest, good feedback. And I think that's valuable.
You obviously your, your early career was at, at Denton Core
Commercial in Melbourne and thenlater in London.
What, what drew you to London and what was it about?
(07:33):
So it's how do you compare thoseearly experiences working for
the same practice in two different locations?
And obviously coming from a sortof rural Australian background,
you know, working now in in London, you know, how, how do
you sort of reflect on those those kind of two different
things? The, I think first moving to
(07:54):
Melbourne was a big culture shock because it was going from
the small Tasmania to Melbourne and, and I love that, that
change and being in such an urban context.
But then once I was at identicalcommercial in Melbourne and
learning about their London office and that kind of, I think
(08:16):
planted the seed that, oh, actually while I'm working with
Dentinco Commercial in Melbourne, maybe one day I could
work for them in London. And I remember setting up, OK,
started at Dentinco Commercial as a student and one of the
tasks as a student was to set upfor conference calls.
And makes me feel old saying it's, it was like there was a
lot to set up for conference calls.
(08:36):
So it wasn't like setting clicking a button to zoom, but
there was stuff to set up that Ican remember setting up for a
call with some of the partners. It was for the athletes,
Athletes Village for the Olympics 2012 in London.
And so that project was going onwhen I was in Melbourne and
setting up that call and then seeing everyone in London pop up
(08:59):
at Denton Court Crosswell over there, that that planted that
seed thinking, oh, actually there is another office over
there and they're working on exciting projects.
There was also the Stonehenge Visitors Centre that was going
on as well. And it was quite exciting
thinking about all the things that were going on in Europe
and, well, Australia and in Melbourne, it's a big city, but
(09:21):
it's still geographically quite isolated.
And so being in a context like Europe, I think making that
transition, so once I did move over to London was really
exciting because there was a lotmore exposure literally kind of
right next door to these other countries.
And the other projects that thatwe worked on were, yeah, we just
(09:44):
had a lot greater exposure to toother parts of the world.
Even just living in another citylike London that's so big and
diverse in itself was a huge draw card.
So yeah. It's fascinating.
I've got lots of friends and connections that are either
Australian or from New Zealand and they kind of use London as
their their base to explore the rest of Europe.
(10:05):
Like you say, like we're so close to everything else sort of
thing. It's such a opportunity for
people exactly in, in terms of the architecture and the the way
things were done. Did you find any noticeable
difference between the company in Australia and the the company
in London? Or was it, I mean, was it all
set up in the same ways or, you know, did you find the actual
act of being an architect quite different?
(10:25):
I. Think the size of that practice
definitely had a lot to do with it.
There was like Melbourne was about 100 people when I was
there, London was more about 25.So whilst it was still the same
firm and a lot of the procedureswere still the same, the way
that projects were set up, that was all the same sort of
(10:47):
protocol. But being in a smaller office,
the dynamics were quite different as well.
So smaller teams, generally the projects were a little smaller.
So in that way things did operate a little different.
It was, yeah, it was like a miniature version of the the
Dentin core commercial in Melbourne.
(11:09):
Like we still had, I can remember on a Friday night and
you'd still have drinks, but it was more intimate in the office,
which was fun. And the the area where the
office was located was in Exmouth Market and that was a
beautiful area. But yeah, the way that the the
day-to-day running of projects, I think it had more to do with
(11:29):
the size of the office as opposed to the geographical
location. Definitely.
I mean, in the UK things are praised a little different in
terms of project stages and terminology.
Those things are different and licensing obviously as well.
But more or less it was just thethe scale of things that
changed. Obviously in in terms of the
(11:50):
sort of licensing thing, we kindof come up from this kind of
interesting thing where you qualify as an architect, do your
Part 3 in London and then quite soon afterwards then moved to
New York. How did you find that sort of
transition and what kind of drewyou there, having qualified in
one country, then to then explore another?
Yeah. And a lot of people might think
(12:11):
why, why did you get licensed inthe UK and then move to another
country soon after. But I, I see in getting licensed
you learn a lot from that regardless.
And I still have that license, Istill renew, I can still
maintain my safety hours, all those things.
So it's still a useful qualification to have.
(12:31):
And it whilst it doesn't specifically transfer, like I
can't transfer my UK license to New York State specifically.
There is reciprocal agreement with other states within the US,
but unfortunately for New York that doesn't that it, there
isn't a reciprocal agreement. So I would need to do my exams
(12:53):
over here if I were to become a New York State licensed
architect. But yeah, I think that the
process to get licensed in the UK was also a little complex
because my bachelor maniasis were done in Australia, my Part
1 and my Part 2. So I had to 1st I did my Part 3
but then I had to go to the process of getting reciprocal
(13:14):
agreement for my Part 1 and my Part 2 in the UK and that all up
took about a year. So it was a complex bit of a
long winded process. But I'm I have no regrets.
I'm so glad that I have my UK license.
It opens up doors for the future.
But it also there is reciprocal agreement between the UK and
Australia. So if I did want to get licensed
(13:35):
in Australia then I can go that way too.
So who knows, maybe eventually I'll be licensed in all three.
And what, what drew you from eventually, you know, we've gone
rural Tasmania, London and now New York.
What was it that? I mean, obviously I can imagine
the glamour of New York and stuff throwing you there, but
what? What specifically?
Yeah, I think the, it's just such a dense concentration of so
(14:03):
much diverse architecture, a lotof good, a lot of bad, a lot of
mediocre, but it's all in such small area.
And I found like I did a few trips to New York when I was
living in London and I found each trip I did was quite
inspiring. I was able to seek projects that
I'd studied in university and they're all so close to one
another. Also just the the buzz that you
(14:26):
get when you're in New York to kind of live within that is, is
really exciting. And that's part of, I think that
going back to that question about what gets me up in the
morning, having a buzz, getting up and and going to work is
it's, I mean, it's a commute, but it's still like I'm still in
Manhattan and going to work eachday.
But I think what drew me, yeah, to New York is was moving to a
(14:49):
really big and even more diversecity than London.
So going from London, which was already a great WA city, to New
York, which I felt like that waslike that a tenfold.
So I, yeah, was eager to kind ofsee another part of the world
(15:10):
and, and live within it and not just be a tourist walking
through it. Yeah, yeah.
Sounds, sounds wonderful. Yeah, there was, there was AI
mean obviously I've been to New York and there was a period
where we did definitely considerit moving over.
Yeah, unfortunately we were, we were just kind of thinking about
it and then my dad passed away, so we had to stay home.
But yeah, it was a that was a missed opportunity.
(15:32):
Unfortunately, yeah. And I think that's, yeah, I
almost felt like if I didn't do it when I chose to do it and
soon after my licensing, then I would never have done it.
I could have quite easily and happily stayed in London.
It was quite comfortable to livethere.
But yeah, if I didn't do it, I may not have never done it.
So. I think that is that wonderful
(15:52):
thing of, of when you're a bit younger, like having those, you
know, embracing the opportunities that come and just
kind of fully, you know, when whenever I talk to architecture
students and stuff like the ideaof, you know, take a gap year
doing this or go to a different university or abroad sort of
thing. Like there's so many, you know,
then is the time to really explore those things and find
out, you know, what suits you best sort of thing and what
(16:14):
doesn't. So.
We're 100%. Sounds like you've really done
that, which is wonderful. Obviously in your in your, your
role within FX collaborative, you're an associate.
What do you, what would you say are those kind of important
day-to-day skills that you now have?
You know, talking earlier it wasit was kind of a, a balance
between the technical side and the creative side.
(16:36):
Do you do you find that sort of all rounder type aspect has
stayed with you or do you think that the specialism kind of
angle suits suits people better?Yeah, I, I think it's very
subjective. I feel like for me, I personally
feel like being having a broaderrange, a broader skill set is
(16:56):
important to me. And that's what I feel has
helped me take on projects and will help me in the future take
on larger projects and lead projects when I have a more
diverse spread skill set. I think if I were to specialize
in something, then it may limit my opportunities as to what sort
(17:16):
of projects I could work on in the future or taking on leading
projects, it might limit me. I think I've worked on and I
also enjoy it. I think being able to, I get
excited about working on a facade detail and can get quite
passionate about that. But then I also really enjoy
crafting a really finely detailed millwork detail too.
(17:38):
And I think also as architects, we need to know how to do all of
it. I think if we were to design a
full project, we needed to have knowledge to to help other
people within our team. Then to at least have that part
of knowledge in in all facets ofthe building is important.
(18:01):
I think that's that that sort offascinating thing about
architecture generally, isn't it?
It's such a you know, the, the designing of a building is a is
a massive, massive thing. And and like you say, you only
really kind of learn the processonce you've kind of experienced
all stages of it. You know, again, I talk to lots
of students about trying to get that sort of rounded experience
to kind of then find where you kind of sit.
(18:22):
Well, you know, I think, you know, similar to you, like I
like to kind of think of myself as an all rounder.
Whether other people would say the same thing, I don't know.
But you say, like, you only really kind of understand things
once you've built something or, you know, once you've understood
how something goes together, then that will teach you the
next time when you're designing something, all those kind of
things to watch out for. And it's only with that sort of,
(18:43):
you know, the full loop of something that that helps you
kind of, yeah, work it all out. Absolutely.
And I think that can also spreadto other, other types of the
architectural world too, whetherit be the different stages of a
project right from concept inception through to completion
and handover or a scale of a project, a smaller scale
(19:03):
project, whether it be residential or mixed-use or
commercial or educational. There there's so many, yeah,
different areas where we can diversify our experiences.
And if I'm able to diversify mine as much as possible in on
all the facets, then that's valuable for me, the most
valuable opportunity, yeah. Outside of a sort of design
(19:27):
thinking background, what are the, what are the skill sets
that have kind of helped you in your management role in terms
of, you know, managing projects and stuff?
And obviously, you know, again, we talk so much about, you know,
managing our time, managing our relationships with people, you
know, understanding how things work.
Like what are those things that you kind of, you know how, how
(19:47):
you kind of lead? You know what, what are those
kind of skills that you really lean upon when you're leading?
I think understanding your team's skill sets where each of
the members can best be plugged into.
And utilize their skills, but also understanding what they
want to learn and and what they want to focus on too.
(20:10):
But yeah, utilizing their skillsmost often leads to them doing
their better work and, and them enjoying what they're doing,
which equals usually a happy team.
And I think also being able to have an understanding of
schedule and time constraints aswell is important to making sure
(20:35):
that you you meet your deadlinesthat also produce a quality
drawing set or, or, or whatever that deadline is.
But yeah, understanding also what the the end goal is and
what their client's needs are. So being able to build a good
relationship with their client right from the beginning and in
(20:56):
that trust that they they reallyneed.
And then if it does get to construction, they need to work
well with the contractor. There's always a lot of
challenges that I think when it comes to construction and that
final stage of getting the project built, but I know can be
quite tense a lot of the time that managing and creating a, a
(21:19):
good environment with the contractor is, I think, really
important because you all all need to be, I don't know,
getting on with one another whenyou're at that final stage,
yeah. How have you found it different
again from London? You know, the actual act of
being an architect in New York and in America, What, what are
(21:43):
those sort of differences? And yeah, even even to down to
the way the sort of contractual relationships work and how
contractors work or how consultants, you know, treat
each other. Yeah, there's some differences
about differences I've noticed within the just the the way that
architects formed within firms. And so you often have, I didn't
(22:06):
notice this in the UK or I've not seen it in Australia.
Are they that you have in New York and we're in in America,
you have architects or design architects or technical
architects and there's a quite aclear difference in my
experience in other countries, it's you're, if you're an
architect, you're an architect and you design, but you also
(22:27):
need to have a solid technical still set as well.
So that learning that and working with that is a little
different. I think that we should all have
the opportunity to design, to lead to the design on a project.
I think as architects, that's going back to the, again, what
gets me up in the morning, it's that creative element.
(22:49):
And when that's not utilised, I think that's it can make the job
a little bit more difficult whenyou're not utilising the design
skills. And we're in for some
architects, maybe that that isn't their their interest and
they're happy just doing the technical or the other parts.
But I think there still needs tobe, or there should be areas
that allow architects to have design exposure, technical
(23:11):
exposure, all of those things all at once.
That's a big difference I've noticed.
Contract types, I think, yeah, every city or country has its
own contract types. And without going into too much
of the details, I think, yeah, it's, it's just a matter of
learning the different contractswhen you're in that country.
(23:36):
But I haven't felt that be a deal breaker or something
difficult to adapt to. It's just you.
It's like the code in a way. There's different codes for each
country that I've lived in. And it's a matter of just
learning it. Yeah, I suppose that's the
thing. It's like for people, for people
listening, you know, the, the imagine going between Australia,
London, New York and, you know, you've lived that, you've done
(23:58):
that. It, it feels like you've managed
to transition quite easily. I mean, sorry, I'm not trying to
put words in your mouth, but it feels like it's, you know, like
you've, you've managed to do that quite easily and, and taken
the challenge upon yourself sortof thing.
Because I feel like it's, you know, it's.
Definitely something to be conscious of before doing it,
knowing that that there are there are things that you need
(24:21):
to put more time into. Time that maybe those that
you're working for may not recognise that you have to
reload, relearn a code or get relicensed or a lot of these
things that if someone were to just stay in that one city or
country doesn't necessarily haveto do and so I can spend more
time putting that into their day-to-day work.
(24:46):
So there is a lot of I feel withto try and not get held back.
You've got to put in the extra time to to learn the code or to
relearn these other things. That or even just a different
measurement system. That's true.
Going from metric to imperial, that's.
Probably the biggest change, isn't it?
Correct. And it is, it's just something
(25:09):
you have to do. And I, I remember thinking it
before moving to the US that Oh yeah, they've got imperial and
I'd done an exchange in university to the US before.
So I had a little bit of an exposure.
But when you're, you literally go from one week working in the
UK in metric and from Australia,that was comes naturally to
having to do everything scales really difficult to, to, to
(25:34):
switch. And I think you can't switch.
There's no equivalent of 1 scaleto the other.
You just have to learn what scales, what sheet sizes, all
those sorts of things are completely different.
So there have been a few embarrassing instances where
I've put like a stupid scale on a sheet or done a really odd
sheet size because I thought it was the right one.
There's a process. Do you do?
(25:54):
You think in feet and inches nowthough.
Yeah, yeah, I do, yeah. When I'm on the projects here,
it's kind of like a language actually.
It's like you just, yeah, yeah, look into it.
But then like, I was recently back in Tasmania and was helping
my mum do some work on her houseand everything.
I mean, I had to consciously think, I know this needs to be
(26:15):
in metric, but that's that's switched immediately back to
metrics. So it's now there.
I think they both come naturally.
Like, like you say, like a language.
That's that's really. It is, yeah.
Yeah. Now I want to talk about your
sort of your your sort of passion points and we've
mentioned diversity a few times in what you've been talking
(26:37):
about. You're an active voice in terms
of divesting inclusion within the design, construction
industry, real estate industriesand you're heavy involved in
something called the Build Out Alliance.
I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about that and what
what you guys do? Sure.
Yep. So build out alliance.
It's a non profit organization. A5O1C3 since 2018 and it's yeah.
(27:02):
So our mission is to provide advocacy and support for LGBTQ
plus people within the building design and construction
industry. So my involvement first started
off, I was just joined FX Collaborative and had heard of
this organization through one ofmy colleagues.
(27:23):
And so I got involved through the professional programming
committee. The there's a several committees
that the organization has and I was the Co chair for that
committee for a few years and that focused on doing
educational and informative events for the community.
So that was we did things like career building webshops for
(27:45):
junior architects or students within industry and that's
something that we've actually continued to do every year
since. We actually just did that again
last weekend, but other events like panel events.
So bringing in queer architects within the industry to talk
about their experiences because often there is a lack or there
has been a lack of advocacy and support for LGBTQ plus people
(28:08):
within our industry. So providing that support that
we do need because the industry still does have and has in the
past hasn't had a great track record in treating LGBTQ plus
people and something that goes across I think all industries
and there needs to be a support network out there.
(28:30):
So hearing other people's stories can often sometimes
really help. Providing a network of other
people out there who are able tohelp if you need it, whether
it's to talk about a bad experience that you've had or if
you're even just having difficulty at your own firm or
you need more experience in a certain area or if you you need
(28:52):
a mentor. We've also created mentorship
programs for junior architects or, or graduates as well.
So it's something that I wish I had more when I had warm up
before I'd started in the industry because I, I didn't
come out until 30, I was 30 and so was well and truly through my
(29:12):
education. And there's difficulties when
you are closeted and, and whilstit is a personal thing, I think
it still does impact to a degreehow you can perform.
I think as a guy architect, I, my, my main goal is to be a good
architect. That's, that's who I am.
I'm an architect. But sometimes when you have to
(29:37):
put a lot of time into making sure you're not, I don't know,
making people feel uncomfortableor you're not too gay or you're
not too queer, or you're saying things correctly that some of
your mind or your time can get used up and your energy into
that as opposed to putting that all into your work.
(29:59):
So I think, yeah, it's, it's a great organization and it's
continuing to grow. So we did start off in New York,
but now we've start up in several other locations.
So we've got LA, San Francisco, Chicago and DC as well as New
York. So it's a growing organization
and provides a a greater networkacross the country.
(30:22):
But also I think within each city, it's got a really good
network within those cities to the community level, which is
also just important as the largest scale too.
I think, like you say, it's a it's a wonderful thing being
able to think about your past self and provide the support
that you, you know, you would have enjoyed or wanted at that
age. And yeah, I wholeheartedly kind
(30:44):
of agree. I do a little sort of mentoring
stuff on the side of all of this.
And I think again, you're alwayskind of talking to your past
self, honey. You're always trying to improve
the industry as a whole and thentry and get rid of the aspects
which you know, you, you don't enjoy and you know, alongside
all the, all the negative aspects of like over time and,
and, and working experiences andthings like that.
(31:05):
And I wonder whether you throughthrough your career, have you
found the industry improving in,in the sort of inclusive
inclusivity aspect? And I suppose in terms of have
you, have you, have you seen different experiences across the
three, you know, countries that you've worked?
I mean, obviously New York famously has a huge amount of
(31:26):
diversity and, and you know, hasbeen talking about inclusivity
for a long time sort of thing. And and I wonder, you know, what
those different experiences are like in those different
countries. Yeah, and I would say it's
interesting too, because I thinkas I've moved from one country
to the next, the the world has also fortunately moved forward.
(31:50):
The different period, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So I think when I was in Australia and I probably
experienced more homophobia in Australia and then into London
and then on to New York. And each place that I've moved
to has improved. But I think each of those
countries has also improved throughout the same timeline as
well. It's just I haven't been in in
(32:11):
those countries at that time. But it is promising, I think to
see that that our industry is diversifying more.
That's still got such a long wayto go.
There's a lot more to do, but I think it's definitely better
than it was 1015 years ago on all, on all levels.
(32:31):
I think there's a better awareness.
In terms of like, obviously we're in a sort of creative
industry and a lot of people kind of expressing themselves.
So may naturally fall to more elements of inclusivity sort of
thing. Would do you find interacting
with other professions in your role as an architect?
And you know, I'm, I'm not trying to specifically say, you
know, contractors and things like that, but one would
typically think that maybe a, a contracting firm, maybe, you
(32:55):
know, less, less progressive in those areas.
Would you consider that fair? Yeah, I think so there's it
comes with I think, yeah, the the way that those different
industries have have evolved, that it has been less diverse
and less inclusive in the past. I think they are also changing
(33:17):
and there's great groups out there that are helping diversify
those fields. But an important part I think of
being part of Build Out Alliance, but also just being a
queer architect is that when I am in those environments,
whether it be on site with a contractor, if I do experience
or see that sort of behaviour happening is to speak up about
(33:39):
it. And actually say and not be
argumentative about it, but justkind of give your perspective if
it's something that's not right to say, just perhaps say that
there's nothing more that reallyneeds to be said, but planting
that seed in someone's head thatactually what you just said was
perhaps offensive to that subcontractor.
(34:00):
It's part of our duty, I think as architects as well, to have
care for others in the working environment and and definitely
speaking up if something isn't right.
Otherwise, it's the the problem's just going to keep
happening. I suppose I'm like you say, it's
that it's that kind of thing of,you know, as a person that's
been through it and is a bit older sort of thing.
(34:22):
You, you have that sort of ability.
The the agency almost to to to have the, you know, the, the,
the chance to say that that maybe a younger person in that
position may not feel the same level of comfort to do.
That's right, yeah. I love the idea of, of advocacy
alongside, you know, it's not just about the sort of
inclusivity sort of thing. It's advocacy.
(34:42):
In what ways do you find yourself as a group advocating,
you know, for architects and andyou know people from the
background? They just being who I am and
being present and not being, I guess not being closeted, but
being open about who I am and, and not shoving it in people's
(35:05):
faces. But yeah, not hiding it and kind
of speaking up about its importance that, yeah, I think
being a spokesperson for other other people helps.
And the more of us who can advocate for ourselves, but as
well As for the the community asa whole makes it easier for
(35:27):
everyone. And that includes every part of
the LGBTQ plus community. Especially at the moment with
the current climate, there's certain parts of our community
like trans or non binary people who are being targeted more.
So speaking up for them and being their voice too is
(35:48):
incredibly important. And it's not always easy to, I
would say speak up because sometimes the environment that
you can be in is, is quite difficult.
You could be in A room full of very conservative people or
straight people, or you don't, you don't know their their
mindsets. And but it yeah, like I said
before, if I don't do it, then maybe that no one else does it.
(36:11):
So I think the advocacy is is a very big part of it.
And again, through Build Out Alliance, how we do put events
out there where providing opportunities for people to to
go to these events, to learn from one another, to meet other
people who might have gone through similar issues so that
(36:34):
they can build their confidence to speak up when it matters as
well. So, so obviously build out
alliances is kind of a an organization that's kind of led
by your you and a group of otherpeople's kind of impetus.
Have you found much sort of change in terms of your sort of
professional bodies within the US, for example, so like the AIA
(36:55):
and people like that? Is there any sort of dialogue
when it comes to those elements of diversity and inclusion that
you've kind of found? Yeah.
So there it seems like we were quite early in starting being a
group like this. There weren't previously other
that I knew of other groups of asimilar scale, but to see now
(37:20):
that the AIA does have their ownLGBTQ plus group as well, it's
good to see that other there areother groups out there starting.
I think Good Outlines is still quite unique in that we provide
a very large cover for all partsof the industry, whether it be
(37:40):
architecture, engineering, construction, interior design,
lighting design, all of those things.
They they kind of come under ourour umbrella.
There are the groups out there that are a bit more focused on
whether it be sustainability, but for the quick community than
sustainability or landscape architecture.
(38:00):
So there are other groups out there, but it is good to see
that we are kind of moving alongat the same pace and working
together to help one another spread out in missions.
I think we we have an underlyingmission that we that really
(38:21):
drives what we do. But that's it's good to see
that. Yeah, there's collaboration
between our groups and I think that's really important.
Would you, I mean, I've, I've spoken to a lot of architects
on, on the podcast and a lot of architects kind of get involved
in sort of extracurricular groups and whether they're about
design or, you know, in London being involved in the RBA sort
(38:41):
of thing. Obviously your, your intention
is, is around your sort of diversity ideas.
Would you, I mean, there must beso many other benefits just by
finding a group of people withinthe industry and like you say,
like having different people from different areas of the
industry, not just architects, having those conversations that
are, you know, outside of the diversity of conversation just
(39:04):
about design, about the process,about architecture.
I mean, you must have found a huge amount of value in just
having that network and being involved in those things.
Yep, definitely. It's interesting.
It makes you realize sometimes how much you can be using your,
your energy on when you're in a very straight environment, how
(39:26):
much time, how much energy subconsciously put towards just
kind of making sure you're, you're, I don't know, code
switching to a degree to a degree.
But when you're in an environment where everyone is
queer, you can focus wholeheartedly on that
discussion about whatever it is and actually feel a little bit
more free and open to, to be 100% who you are and, and have
(39:51):
really constructive conversations about design with
0 distractions about every anything else that's going on.
It's yeah, it's a, it's not a conscious thing too.
But when you're in that environment, it happens
naturally, and it is really. Beautiful.
When you can do that. Yeah, No, it sounds, it sounds
like a, a wonderful initiative. And and I mean, yeah, it's, it's
(40:13):
great that you're kind of spreading amongst, you know,
throughout different states likeyou say, is that, is that the
plan sort of moving forward to, to grow as much as you can?
And yeah, partially, I think it's, it's not our focus to just
grow. And I've been on the board now
for a few years and now just started in my second term.
We've got a lot about the focuses and yes, expanding has
(40:37):
been one to provide a greater outreach and greater advocacy
and support for our community throughout the country and to
areas where they may not necessarily have that support
that they need. But in saying that the our
mission is our our core and that's at the community level as
(40:58):
well. So making sure that yes, as we
grow, as we grow, we're providing, we're keeping our
mission, but we also need to be making sure that we're keeping
it at a community level too. So that's, if you look at the
macro level, just in New York, there's communities here within
New York where there is an advocacy and support or they,
(41:20):
they need more of it. And so you're making sure that
parts of New York, communities within New York are getting
support and advocacy as well. And so that we're providing
events or programs or initiatives within this city and
not losing track of that. Sure.
In terms of, I mean, obviously you've been through architecture
(41:43):
school and, and like we kind of hinted at the beginning,
sometimes it can be a very difficult place to, to kind of
exist and with with great deadlines and and all of that.
Do you, do you think there should be more conversations
around, you know, architecture school around inclusivity and
things like that? And I suppose thinking back to
(42:04):
your experience of architecture school, you know what, what sort
of things would you like to see put in place that maybe improves
things for the future? Yeah.
And yeah, I I think that could be more.
I don't. Again, I can't speak to how
certain classes are being done now, but I know that when I
studied, there wasn't much focusat all on inclusive design.
(42:26):
And inclusive is a broad topic. And it could be inclusive in
terms of designing for accessibility or designing for
different community groups, or that there's so many types of
inclusivity that we need to be designing for.
If you're designing a project inthe middle of a neighborhood,
(42:47):
you should be designing for thatcommunity that surrounds.
You need to be inclusive of thatexisting community.
So yeah, I think it's something that we should always be pushing
more. And I think in yeah, there's
there's, if you look in the states, there's cities were
designed around segregation, redlining, literally divided
(43:09):
cities. And so especially in places
where it's been such a it's still inbuilt into the system,
these patterns are still there, there's a lot of work that needs
to be done to undo that damage that was done when redlining was
first put in place. So I mean, that's just one facet
(43:30):
of inclusivity. And I think it's important to
have that from the beginning so that as an architecture, you're
always aware and you're always thinking of that it's not an
afterthought. Yeah.
I think that's like you say, that's the that's the thing.
It's about having those sort of early dialogues and just
opening. I mean, you know, hopefully most
(43:51):
of us architects come into the profession to with the idea to
make things better and, and havethose open conversations not
dictate ideas onto people. But right, obviously they can
say you don't want yeah, being sometimes things go right along
the way. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, being aware of it is a bigpart.
So that it's not, yeah, like I say, like an afterthought or
(44:13):
something that's done as a tokengesture, because that's where
it's really meaningless. How would you, I mean, what,
what would you want people to take away from your career?
I mean, having, having, you know, spoken with you for an
hour, you know, I'm, I'm seeing this kind of incredible journey
from like, like we started with from rural Australia to New
(44:34):
York. And like you say, this sort of
progression. And, you know, you've kind of
finding yourself in, in or communicating that to the
outside world in later life sortof thing.
And, and, you know, finding yourself in New York and you
know, it feels like you being inthe right place now sort of
thing. Like how how would you kind of
reflect on your journey and whatwhat people might be able to
take from it? I feel like I'm only part way
(44:56):
who I am only part way, of course.
Not going to start on it just yet.
I'm quite excited to see what what is to come as well.
But I think from where I've gotten to so far, it's I'm glad
that I've taken opportunities toto move to New York, to move to
(45:18):
the mainland when I left Tasmania to, to take those
opportunities. And whether it be a school
exchange or actually moving country to live in another
country rather than that just being a thought of, Oh yeah, I
could do that. But no, no, it's too difficult.
But I think it's, it's valuable to if there is an idea that you
(45:40):
have or something that you want to do, there's reason behind
that and to kind of work out, you know, in mind what that
reason is and why you want to dothat, what's pushing you to do
that. And then if it's something that
you really want to do, then do it.
And it's, yes, it is difficult to move countries and there's a
lot of complexities involved with that, whether it be visas
(46:02):
or immigration. But there's so many people out
there who can help you. So finding those who those
people are and what, what is theroute to make that happen?
I think one thing that was really helpful for me earlier
on, I did like a year by year plan on kind of kind of quite
scary when you put map everything out in a year of
where you might want to be. It makes your career look really
(46:26):
short because you start working out.
Oh yeah. Well, that's I've had a year
here to to move to get licensed.Like it starts to take up chunks
of time, but then also what typeof work you might want to do and
how you work that in with your plan as well, how you're going
to get to a specific firm that you might want to work for.
(46:47):
But having that map, that 20 year plan is really useful.
And that always evolves, but it might have different paths that
DEA off it. But I think, yeah, that that
really helped me get to where I am, but not being afraid to take
a leap of faith and move to another country.
(47:10):
If it doesn't work out, then at least you gave it a go.
I think that's you've, you've kind of you've hit on my next
question, which is one that I normally ask everyone, which is
about has your career turned outhow you imagined and how much of
it being intentional and how much of it's being kind of
adaption. And I think you're probably the
one, the first people that I've spoken to that actually has
thought about the plan. Yeah, I think that's a quite a
(47:33):
strong a strong idea. Yeah, yeah, it's very, very
useful and it's something that Ican continue to go back to and
it's just like an Excel doc and visual shit.
So it's something that I'm like always reminding myself of like,
Oh yeah, I was needing to this. I need to maybe get back on
track. But I think my yeah, I mean to
(47:54):
where I am now in my career, it's I didn't have a specific
plan, like I'm going to be in New York working for this firm.
It was more, I think, what did Iwant my experiences to be?
I didn't, I never would have thought that I would have become
more of an advocate for the queer community within the
(48:15):
architecture, engineering and construction industry.
But that's something I'm so pleased that I've fallen into in
a way, and honestly is I think acore part of who I am as an
architect is providing support and advocacy for people who need
it. I think we can all, everyone can
do with a bit more of that. But yeah, no, I am very pleased
(48:40):
with where I am and I think I'velearnt a huge amount from each
of the, the steps that I've taken for the different
companies that I've worked for and the different countries that
I've worked in. Yeah, I I don't have any regrets
with the the path that I've taken.
I think it's I think it's great that you take that time to sort
(49:01):
of reflect on it and it's something maybe some of us need
to be a bit more kind of self aware and have those check
insurance, you know, with ourselves sort of thing.
How you know, we, we, we spoke about you not being done just
yet and there's so much of your career left.
What do you what, what, what is that plan moving forward?
Just just to enjoy the ride and do more of the same?
(49:22):
Or have you got another ambition?
Yeah, I, I don't have timelines on, I have to do certain things
by this this time, but I'm enjoying where I am now and
continuing to work on complex projects.
I'm looking forward to to work on more projects and of greater
complexity, maybe of larger scale.
(49:43):
And yeah, continue to do it to best find my experiences like
we're talking about before. Yeah, continuing to spread my
skills and learn more, I think. And yeah, we've built our
alliance, continuing to spread that mission and help that that
group grow as well. Brilliant.
(50:03):
Well, thank you so much for joining me.
I think you're doing some amazing stuff and long may it
continue. Thank you very much.
Thanks for having me, Chris.
There is a lack of advocacy and support or LGBTQ plus people
within our industry. So as a gay architect, my main
goal is to be a good architect. But sometimes when you have to
put a lot of time into making sure you're not too gay or
you're not too queer or some of your mind can get used up, as
opposed to putting that all intoyour work.
(00:20):
Martin Scott is an Australian architect based in New York.
He is an associate at Ethics Collaborative, working on a wide
range of complex projects from conception to construction.
Along aside his work in practice, Martin is a director
of the Build Out Alliance, an advocate organization for
diversity and inclusivity withinthe design and the construction
industries. We did things like rebuilding
(00:40):
webshops for junior architects or students within industry,
other events like panel events, so bringing in queer architects
within the industry to talk about their experiences.
What are those kind of skills that you really lean upon when
you're leaving? It's part of our duty, I think,
as architects as well, to have care for others in the working
environment and if only speakingup if something isn't right.
(01:02):
Have you found the industry improving in in the sort of
inclusivity aspect? I think it's definitely better
than it was 1015 years ago, but there's a lot more to do.
Martin, thanks so much for joining me.
No worries. Thanks for having me, Chris.
It's a pleasure to be here. Right.
So a question that I ask all theguests on the podcast Why
(01:23):
architecture? What is it about a career in
architecture that gets you up inthe morning, that keeps you
coming back for more? It's a good question.
For me, I think it's there's multiple things.
Architecture is a creative industry, but that's also I
think a good mix of a lot of different skill sets.
(01:44):
So I'm a creative person. I think that kind of comes
naturally, but there's also a lot of complexity to it too.
So the technical side of things I'm paired with the creative
side is what really interests me.
I love a challenge and I love solving puzzles.
And every day we would say that I'm faced with definitely a
(02:07):
challenge or two. So that keeps me excited and I'm
always learning. But definitely having that
creative side to it as well is ais a big, big part of it.
Do you think that variety reallyhelps?
Because I think that's somethingthat I always kind of talk about
with people. You know, an architecture, a
career in architecture is so different every day.
You know, one minute you're drawing, one minute you're
(02:29):
solving problems on site next toyour talking to community sort
of thing. I think that's for me is the is
the real value. Exactly.
Yeah, I think it never gets dullthere.
There are some monotonous parts of, of projects, but that's
always diversified by, yeah, the, the stage of the project
that you're working on or the design of the project or yeah,
(02:50):
the client themselves and what they actually need.
And then also keeping in mind what the end users going to
debt. And that's quite an exciting
part to knowing that. I mean, you're designing this
for someone ultimately to make sure that you're providing
whatever it is they need to makethem enjoy the end, the end
product that they get. Completely.
(03:13):
So what was your route into, youknow, this career graph?
What's the, what's the sort of early upbringings?
I know you're originally from Australia and and I wonder if we
kind of talk about that sort of early upbringing and, and maybe
how that kind of led to, you know, a career in architecture.
Yeah, So I think my decision to go into architecture didn't
didn't happen until later on in high school.
(03:33):
But in the background I think back to how I grew up and I grew
up on a small farm in Tasmania and was always, I think, exposed
to a, a creative mindset. My dad was an engineer and my
mum was a teacher. And so having the mum's quite
(03:56):
creative too in, in art and thatsort of thing.
So having those two paired technical mindset and a creative
mindset, I think unconsciously prepared me for the architecture
world. But having other vivid memories,
like when I was really little, my dad would be tinkering in the
shed and I'd be at the front andhe'd bring out like there was a
(04:20):
bucket, a green bucket of nuts and bolts and a tin of nails.
And he'd just put them out the front with some tools and off
cuts of wood and things. And to say like, do what you
want and be creative with it. So I just build little models
and just from a really young agehaving that opportunity to to be
(04:41):
creative. Yeah, any of it is just going
out into the nature and and being amongst abortion with
other animals. I think having that open
mindedness to be able to kind ofgo exploring and build cubbies
and houses out of the vegetationand bits of thick bits and
(05:02):
pieces that are around you, I think was yeah, that kind of put
in my mind that I could be creative and and build things
myself. There's that lovely sort of
connection, isn't there? Yeah.
Like when you when you think like about us sort of physically
building stuff. And I suppose it's that that
sort of thing. Sometimes maybe you lose a
little bit in architecture school when it all becomes a bit
(05:23):
academic, the actual act of building.
But like you say, like having anearly experience of actually,
you know, putting things together and like you say, like
from found objects or you know, out in the out in the
environment sounds like an amazing kind of starter for it.
It was, yeah. And then actually using those, I
think once I grew up a little bit, being able to do things
(05:44):
like DLI projects with the family, like all of us kids
would, I think, help whenever, whenever mum and dad needed a
hand. So we're always like building
things growing up. And then once I went into
architecture school, yeah, I wasactually able to put some of
those early skills to use and actually formalize some of my
(06:06):
training. What was your early experience
of architecture school like? Like did you, did you naturally
sort of find yourself in, you know, being able to communicate
your ideas well and you know, incrits and things like that
because it's something that, youknow, people.
I mean, architecture school is an incredibly kind of bit of a
baptism of fire for people and aquite difficult experience for
(06:28):
some. Like what was, what's your kind
of reflection on that time period?
Yeah, I think being open for, open to criticism, it is, it is
a hard thing, but it's somethingthat I was always open to
receiving. Having to not take things
personally, which is difficult because when you put your design
out there, you're, you're putting yourself, this project
(06:49):
represents you. And so you're putting a lot of
personal elements too out there.And to receive criticism on that
can be difficult. But I, I've always had the
mindset that I'm going to learn from whatever it is other people
take from my work and I can use that however I best feel.
(07:12):
So I think not taking things toopersonally, they're not taking,
they're not doing it maliciously, they're doing it to
give you honest, good feedback. And I think that's valuable.
You obviously your, your early career was at, at Denton Core
Commercial in Melbourne and thenlater in London.
What, what drew you to London and what was it about?
(07:33):
So it's how do you compare thoseearly experiences working for
the same practice in two different locations?
And obviously coming from a sortof rural Australian background,
you know, working now in in London, you know, how, how do
you sort of reflect on those those kind of two different
things? The, I think first moving to
(07:54):
Melbourne was a big culture shock because it was going from
the small Tasmania to Melbourne and, and I love that, that
change and being in such an urban context.
But then once I was at identicalcommercial in Melbourne and
learning about their London office and that kind of, I think
(08:16):
planted the seed that, oh, actually while I'm working with
Dentinco Commercial in Melbourne, maybe one day I could
work for them in London. And I remember setting up, OK,
started at Dentinco Commercial as a student and one of the
tasks as a student was to set upfor conference calls.
And makes me feel old saying it's, it was like there was a
lot to set up for conference calls.
(08:36):
So it wasn't like setting clicking a button to zoom, but
there was stuff to set up that Ican remember setting up for a
call with some of the partners. It was for the athletes,
Athletes Village for the Olympics 2012 in London.
And so that project was going onwhen I was in Melbourne and
setting up that call and then seeing everyone in London pop up
(08:59):
at Denton Court Crosswell over there, that that planted that
seed thinking, oh, actually there is another office over
there and they're working on exciting projects.
There was also the Stonehenge Visitors Centre that was going
on as well. And it was quite exciting
thinking about all the things that were going on in Europe
and, well, Australia and in Melbourne, it's a big city, but
(09:21):
it's still geographically quite isolated.
And so being in a context like Europe, I think making that
transition, so once I did move over to London was really
exciting because there was a lotmore exposure literally kind of
right next door to these other countries.
And the other projects that thatwe worked on were, yeah, we just
(09:44):
had a lot greater exposure to toother parts of the world.
Even just living in another citylike London that's so big and
diverse in itself was a huge draw card.
So yeah. It's fascinating.
I've got lots of friends and connections that are either
Australian or from New Zealand and they kind of use London as
their their base to explore the rest of Europe.
(10:05):
Like you say, like we're so close to everything else sort of
thing. It's such a opportunity for
people exactly in, in terms of the architecture and the the way
things were done. Did you find any noticeable
difference between the company in Australia and the the company
in London? Or was it, I mean, was it all
set up in the same ways or, you know, did you find the actual
act of being an architect quite different?
(10:25):
I. Think the size of that practice
definitely had a lot to do with it.
There was like Melbourne was about 100 people when I was
there, London was more about 25.So whilst it was still the same
firm and a lot of the procedureswere still the same, the way
that projects were set up, that was all the same sort of
(10:47):
protocol. But being in a smaller office,
the dynamics were quite different as well.
So smaller teams, generally the projects were a little smaller.
So in that way things did operate a little different.
It was, yeah, it was like a miniature version of the the
Dentin core commercial in Melbourne.
(11:09):
Like we still had, I can remember on a Friday night and
you'd still have drinks, but it was more intimate in the office,
which was fun. And the the area where the
office was located was in Exmouth Market and that was a
beautiful area. But yeah, the way that the the
day-to-day running of projects, I think it had more to do with
(11:29):
the size of the office as opposed to the geographical
location. Definitely.
I mean, in the UK things are praised a little different in
terms of project stages and terminology.
Those things are different and licensing obviously as well.
But more or less it was just thethe scale of things that
changed. Obviously in in terms of the
(11:50):
sort of licensing thing, we kindof come up from this kind of
interesting thing where you qualify as an architect, do your
Part 3 in London and then quite soon afterwards then moved to
New York. How did you find that sort of
transition and what kind of drewyou there, having qualified in
one country, then to then explore another?
Yeah. And a lot of people might think
(12:11):
why, why did you get licensed inthe UK and then move to another
country soon after. But I, I see in getting licensed
you learn a lot from that regardless.
And I still have that license, Istill renew, I can still
maintain my safety hours, all those things.
So it's still a useful qualification to have.
(12:31):
And it whilst it doesn't specifically transfer, like I
can't transfer my UK license to New York State specifically.
There is reciprocal agreement with other states within the US,
but unfortunately for New York that doesn't that it, there
isn't a reciprocal agreement. So I would need to do my exams
(12:53):
over here if I were to become a New York State licensed
architect. But yeah, I think that the
process to get licensed in the UK was also a little complex
because my bachelor maniasis were done in Australia, my Part
1 and my Part 2. So I had to 1st I did my Part 3
but then I had to go to the process of getting reciprocal
(13:14):
agreement for my Part 1 and my Part 2 in the UK and that all up
took about a year. So it was a complex bit of a
long winded process. But I'm I have no regrets.
I'm so glad that I have my UK license.
It opens up doors for the future.
But it also there is reciprocal agreement between the UK and
Australia. So if I did want to get licensed
(13:35):
in Australia then I can go that way too.
So who knows, maybe eventually I'll be licensed in all three.
And what, what drew you from eventually, you know, we've gone
rural Tasmania, London and now New York.
What was it that? I mean, obviously I can imagine
the glamour of New York and stuff throwing you there, but
what? What specifically?
Yeah, I think the, it's just such a dense concentration of so
(14:03):
much diverse architecture, a lotof good, a lot of bad, a lot of
mediocre, but it's all in such small area.
And I found like I did a few trips to New York when I was
living in London and I found each trip I did was quite
inspiring. I was able to seek projects that
I'd studied in university and they're all so close to one
another. Also just the the buzz that you
(14:26):
get when you're in New York to kind of live within that is, is
really exciting. And that's part of, I think that
going back to that question about what gets me up in the
morning, having a buzz, getting up and and going to work is
it's, I mean, it's a commute, but it's still like I'm still in
Manhattan and going to work eachday.
But I think what drew me, yeah, to New York is was moving to a
(14:49):
really big and even more diversecity than London.
So going from London, which was already a great WA city, to New
York, which I felt like that waslike that a tenfold.
So I, yeah, was eager to kind ofsee another part of the world
(15:10):
and, and live within it and not just be a tourist walking
through it. Yeah, yeah.
Sounds, sounds wonderful. Yeah, there was, there was AI
mean obviously I've been to New York and there was a period
where we did definitely considerit moving over.
Yeah, unfortunately we were, we were just kind of thinking about
it and then my dad passed away, so we had to stay home.
But yeah, it was a that was a missed opportunity.
(15:32):
Unfortunately, yeah. And I think that's, yeah, I
almost felt like if I didn't do it when I chose to do it and
soon after my licensing, then I would never have done it.
I could have quite easily and happily stayed in London.
It was quite comfortable to livethere.
But yeah, if I didn't do it, I may not have never done it.
So. I think that is that wonderful
(15:52):
thing of, of when you're a bit younger, like having those, you
know, embracing the opportunities that come and just
kind of fully, you know, when whenever I talk to architecture
students and stuff like the ideaof, you know, take a gap year
doing this or go to a different university or abroad sort of
thing. Like there's so many, you know,
then is the time to really explore those things and find
out, you know, what suits you best sort of thing and what
(16:14):
doesn't. So.
We're 100%. Sounds like you've really done
that, which is wonderful. Obviously in your in your, your
role within FX collaborative, you're an associate.
What do you, what would you say are those kind of important
day-to-day skills that you now have?
You know, talking earlier it wasit was kind of a, a balance
between the technical side and the creative side.
(16:36):
Do you do you find that sort of all rounder type aspect has
stayed with you or do you think that the specialism kind of
angle suits suits people better?Yeah, I, I think it's very
subjective. I feel like for me, I personally
feel like being having a broaderrange, a broader skill set is
(16:56):
important to me. And that's what I feel has
helped me take on projects and will help me in the future take
on larger projects and lead projects when I have a more
diverse spread skill set. I think if I were to specialize
in something, then it may limit my opportunities as to what sort
(17:16):
of projects I could work on in the future or taking on leading
projects, it might limit me. I think I've worked on and I
also enjoy it. I think being able to, I get
excited about working on a facade detail and can get quite
passionate about that. But then I also really enjoy
crafting a really finely detailed millwork detail too.
(17:38):
And I think also as architects, we need to know how to do all of
it. I think if we were to design a
full project, we needed to have knowledge to to help other
people within our team. Then to at least have that part
of knowledge in in all facets ofthe building is important.
(18:01):
I think that's that that sort offascinating thing about
architecture generally, isn't it?
It's such a you know, the, the designing of a building is a is
a massive, massive thing. And and like you say, you only
really kind of learn the processonce you've kind of experienced
all stages of it. You know, again, I talk to lots
of students about trying to get that sort of rounded experience
to kind of then find where you kind of sit.
(18:22):
Well, you know, I think, you know, similar to you, like I
like to kind of think of myself as an all rounder.
Whether other people would say the same thing, I don't know.
But you say, like, you only really kind of understand things
once you've built something or, you know, once you've understood
how something goes together, then that will teach you the
next time when you're designing something, all those kind of
things to watch out for. And it's only with that sort of,
(18:43):
you know, the full loop of something that that helps you
kind of, yeah, work it all out. Absolutely.
And I think that can also spreadto other, other types of the
architectural world too, whetherit be the different stages of a
project right from concept inception through to completion
and handover or a scale of a project, a smaller scale
(19:03):
project, whether it be residential or mixed-use or
commercial or educational. There there's so many, yeah,
different areas where we can diversify our experiences.
And if I'm able to diversify mine as much as possible in on
all the facets, then that's valuable for me, the most
valuable opportunity, yeah. Outside of a sort of design
(19:27):
thinking background, what are the, what are the skill sets
that have kind of helped you in your management role in terms
of, you know, managing projects and stuff?
And obviously, you know, again, we talk so much about, you know,
managing our time, managing our relationships with people, you
know, understanding how things work.
Like what are those things that you kind of, you know how, how
(19:47):
you kind of lead? You know what, what are those
kind of skills that you really lean upon when you're leading?
I think understanding your team's skill sets where each of
the members can best be plugged into.
And utilize their skills, but also understanding what they
want to learn and and what they want to focus on too.
(20:10):
But yeah, utilizing their skillsmost often leads to them doing
their better work and, and them enjoying what they're doing,
which equals usually a happy team.
And I think also being able to have an understanding of
schedule and time constraints aswell is important to making sure
(20:35):
that you you meet your deadlinesthat also produce a quality
drawing set or, or, or whatever that deadline is.
But yeah, understanding also what the the end goal is and
what their client's needs are. So being able to build a good
relationship with their client right from the beginning and in
(20:56):
that trust that they they reallyneed.
And then if it does get to construction, they need to work
well with the contractor. There's always a lot of
challenges that I think when it comes to construction and that
final stage of getting the project built, but I know can be
quite tense a lot of the time that managing and creating a, a
(21:19):
good environment with the contractor is, I think, really
important because you all all need to be, I don't know,
getting on with one another whenyou're at that final stage,
yeah. How have you found it different
again from London? You know, the actual act of
being an architect in New York and in America, What, what are
(21:43):
those sort of differences? And yeah, even even to down to
the way the sort of contractual relationships work and how
contractors work or how consultants, you know, treat
each other. Yeah, there's some differences
about differences I've noticed within the just the the way that
architects formed within firms. And so you often have, I didn't
(22:06):
notice this in the UK or I've not seen it in Australia.
Are they that you have in New York and we're in in America,
you have architects or design architects or technical
architects and there's a quite aclear difference in my
experience in other countries, it's you're, if you're an
architect, you're an architect and you design, but you also
(22:27):
need to have a solid technical still set as well.
So that learning that and working with that is a little
different. I think that we should all have
the opportunity to design, to lead to the design on a project.
I think as architects, that's going back to the, again, what
gets me up in the morning, it's that creative element.
(22:49):
And when that's not utilised, I think that's it can make the job
a little bit more difficult whenyou're not utilising the design
skills. And we're in for some
architects, maybe that that isn't their their interest and
they're happy just doing the technical or the other parts.
But I think there still needs tobe, or there should be areas
that allow architects to have design exposure, technical
(23:11):
exposure, all of those things all at once.
That's a big difference I've noticed.
Contract types, I think, yeah, every city or country has its
own contract types. And without going into too much
of the details, I think, yeah, it's, it's just a matter of
learning the different contractswhen you're in that country.
(23:36):
But I haven't felt that be a deal breaker or something
difficult to adapt to. It's just you.
It's like the code in a way. There's different codes for each
country that I've lived in. And it's a matter of just
learning it. Yeah, I suppose that's the
thing. It's like for people, for people
listening, you know, the, the imagine going between Australia,
London, New York and, you know, you've lived that, you've done
(23:58):
that. It, it feels like you've managed
to transition quite easily. I mean, sorry, I'm not trying to
put words in your mouth, but it feels like it's, you know, like
you've, you've managed to do that quite easily and, and taken
the challenge upon yourself sortof thing.
Because I feel like it's, you know, it's.
Definitely something to be conscious of before doing it,
knowing that that there are there are things that you need
(24:21):
to put more time into. Time that maybe those that
you're working for may not recognise that you have to
reload, relearn a code or get relicensed or a lot of these
things that if someone were to just stay in that one city or
country doesn't necessarily haveto do and so I can spend more
time putting that into their day-to-day work.
(24:46):
So there is a lot of I feel withto try and not get held back.
You've got to put in the extra time to to learn the code or to
relearn these other things. That or even just a different
measurement system. That's true.
Going from metric to imperial, that's.
Probably the biggest change, isn't it?
Correct. And it is, it's just something
(25:09):
you have to do. And I, I remember thinking it
before moving to the US that Oh yeah, they've got imperial and
I'd done an exchange in university to the US before.
So I had a little bit of an exposure.
But when you're, you literally go from one week working in the
UK in metric and from Australia,that was comes naturally to
having to do everything scales really difficult to, to, to
(25:34):
switch. And I think you can't switch.
There's no equivalent of 1 scaleto the other.
You just have to learn what scales, what sheet sizes, all
those sorts of things are completely different.
So there have been a few embarrassing instances where
I've put like a stupid scale on a sheet or done a really odd
sheet size because I thought it was the right one.
There's a process. Do you do?
(25:54):
You think in feet and inches nowthough.
Yeah, yeah, I do, yeah. When I'm on the projects here,
it's kind of like a language actually.
It's like you just, yeah, yeah, look into it.
But then like, I was recently back in Tasmania and was helping
my mum do some work on her houseand everything.
I mean, I had to consciously think, I know this needs to be
(26:15):
in metric, but that's that's switched immediately back to
metrics. So it's now there.
I think they both come naturally.
Like, like you say, like a language.
That's that's really. It is, yeah.
Yeah. Now I want to talk about your
sort of your your sort of passion points and we've
mentioned diversity a few times in what you've been talking
(26:37):
about. You're an active voice in terms
of divesting inclusion within the design, construction
industry, real estate industriesand you're heavy involved in
something called the Build Out Alliance.
I wonder if you can tell us a bit more about that and what
what you guys do? Sure.
Yep. So build out alliance.
It's a non profit organization. A5O1C3 since 2018 and it's yeah.
(27:02):
So our mission is to provide advocacy and support for LGBTQ
plus people within the building design and construction
industry. So my involvement first started
off, I was just joined FX Collaborative and had heard of
this organization through one ofmy colleagues.
(27:23):
And so I got involved through the professional programming
committee. The there's a several committees
that the organization has and I was the Co chair for that
committee for a few years and that focused on doing
educational and informative events for the community.
So that was we did things like career building webshops for
(27:45):
junior architects or students within industry and that's
something that we've actually continued to do every year
since. We actually just did that again
last weekend, but other events like panel events.
So bringing in queer architects within the industry to talk
about their experiences because often there is a lack or there
has been a lack of advocacy and support for LGBTQ plus people
(28:08):
within our industry. So providing that support that
we do need because the industry still does have and has in the
past hasn't had a great track record in treating LGBTQ plus
people and something that goes across I think all industries
and there needs to be a support network out there.
(28:30):
So hearing other people's stories can often sometimes
really help. Providing a network of other
people out there who are able tohelp if you need it, whether
it's to talk about a bad experience that you've had or if
you're even just having difficulty at your own firm or
you need more experience in a certain area or if you you need
(28:52):
a mentor. We've also created mentorship
programs for junior architects or, or graduates as well.
So it's something that I wish I had more when I had warm up
before I'd started in the industry because I, I didn't
come out until 30, I was 30 and so was well and truly through my
(29:12):
education. And there's difficulties when
you are closeted and, and whilstit is a personal thing, I think
it still does impact to a degreehow you can perform.
I think as a guy architect, I, my, my main goal is to be a good
architect. That's, that's who I am.
I'm an architect. But sometimes when you have to
(29:37):
put a lot of time into making sure you're not, I don't know,
making people feel uncomfortableor you're not too gay or you're
not too queer, or you're saying things correctly that some of
your mind or your time can get used up and your energy into
that as opposed to putting that all into your work.
(29:59):
So I think, yeah, it's, it's a great organization and it's
continuing to grow. So we did start off in New York,
but now we've start up in several other locations.
So we've got LA, San Francisco, Chicago and DC as well as New
York. So it's a growing organization
and provides a a greater networkacross the country.
(30:22):
But also I think within each city, it's got a really good
network within those cities to the community level, which is
also just important as the largest scale too.
I think, like you say, it's a it's a wonderful thing being
able to think about your past self and provide the support
that you, you know, you would have enjoyed or wanted at that
age. And yeah, I wholeheartedly kind
(30:44):
of agree. I do a little sort of mentoring
stuff on the side of all of this.
And I think again, you're alwayskind of talking to your past
self, honey. You're always trying to improve
the industry as a whole and thentry and get rid of the aspects
which you know, you, you don't enjoy and you know, alongside
all the, all the negative aspects of like over time and,
and, and working experiences andthings like that.
(31:05):
And I wonder whether you throughthrough your career, have you
found the industry improving in,in the sort of inclusive
inclusivity aspect? And I suppose in terms of have
you, have you, have you seen different experiences across the
three, you know, countries that you've worked?
I mean, obviously New York famously has a huge amount of
(31:26):
diversity and, and you know, hasbeen talking about inclusivity
for a long time sort of thing. And and I wonder, you know, what
those different experiences are like in those different
countries. Yeah, and I would say it's
interesting too, because I thinkas I've moved from one country
to the next, the the world has also fortunately moved forward.
(31:50):
The different period, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
So I think when I was in Australia and I probably
experienced more homophobia in Australia and then into London
and then on to New York. And each place that I've moved
to has improved. But I think each of those
countries has also improved throughout the same timeline as
well. It's just I haven't been in in
(32:11):
those countries at that time. But it is promising, I think to
see that that our industry is diversifying more.
That's still got such a long wayto go.
There's a lot more to do, but I think it's definitely better
than it was 1015 years ago on all, on all levels.
(32:31):
I think there's a better awareness.
In terms of like, obviously we're in a sort of creative
industry and a lot of people kind of expressing themselves.
So may naturally fall to more elements of inclusivity sort of
thing. Would do you find interacting
with other professions in your role as an architect?
And you know, I'm, I'm not trying to specifically say, you
know, contractors and things like that, but one would
typically think that maybe a, a contracting firm, maybe, you
(32:55):
know, less, less progressive in those areas.
Would you consider that fair? Yeah, I think so there's it
comes with I think, yeah, the the way that those different
industries have have evolved, that it has been less diverse
and less inclusive in the past. I think they are also changing
(33:17):
and there's great groups out there that are helping diversify
those fields. But an important part I think of
being part of Build Out Alliance, but also just being a
queer architect is that when I am in those environments,
whether it be on site with a contractor, if I do experience
or see that sort of behaviour happening is to speak up about
(33:39):
it. And actually say and not be
argumentative about it, but justkind of give your perspective if
it's something that's not right to say, just perhaps say that
there's nothing more that reallyneeds to be said, but planting
that seed in someone's head thatactually what you just said was
perhaps offensive to that subcontractor.
(34:00):
It's part of our duty, I think as architects as well, to have
care for others in the working environment and and definitely
speaking up if something isn't right.
Otherwise, it's the the problem's just going to keep
happening. I suppose I'm like you say, it's
that it's that kind of thing of,you know, as a person that's
been through it and is a bit older sort of thing.
(34:22):
You, you have that sort of ability.
The the agency almost to to to have the, you know, the, the,
the chance to say that that maybe a younger person in that
position may not feel the same level of comfort to do.
That's right, yeah. I love the idea of, of advocacy
alongside, you know, it's not just about the sort of
inclusivity sort of thing. It's advocacy.
(34:42):
In what ways do you find yourself as a group advocating,
you know, for architects and andyou know people from the
background? They just being who I am and
being present and not being, I guess not being closeted, but
being open about who I am and, and not shoving it in people's
(35:05):
faces. But yeah, not hiding it and kind
of speaking up about its importance that, yeah, I think
being a spokesperson for other other people helps.
And the more of us who can advocate for ourselves, but as
well As for the the community asa whole makes it easier for
(35:27):
everyone. And that includes every part of
the LGBTQ plus community. Especially at the moment with
the current climate, there's certain parts of our community
like trans or non binary people who are being targeted more.
So speaking up for them and being their voice too is
(35:48):
incredibly important. And it's not always easy to, I
would say speak up because sometimes the environment that
you can be in is, is quite difficult.
You could be in A room full of very conservative people or
straight people, or you don't, you don't know their their
mindsets. And but it yeah, like I said
before, if I don't do it, then maybe that no one else does it.
(36:11):
So I think the advocacy is is a very big part of it.
And again, through Build Out Alliance, how we do put events
out there where providing opportunities for people to to
go to these events, to learn from one another, to meet other
people who might have gone through similar issues so that
(36:34):
they can build their confidence to speak up when it matters as
well. So, so obviously build out
alliances is kind of a an organization that's kind of led
by your you and a group of otherpeople's kind of impetus.
Have you found much sort of change in terms of your sort of
professional bodies within the US, for example, so like the AIA
(36:55):
and people like that? Is there any sort of dialogue
when it comes to those elements of diversity and inclusion that
you've kind of found? Yeah.
So there it seems like we were quite early in starting being a
group like this. There weren't previously other
that I knew of other groups of asimilar scale, but to see now
(37:20):
that the AIA does have their ownLGBTQ plus group as well, it's
good to see that other there areother groups out there starting.
I think Good Outlines is still quite unique in that we provide
a very large cover for all partsof the industry, whether it be
(37:40):
architecture, engineering, construction, interior design,
lighting design, all of those things.
They they kind of come under ourour umbrella.
There are the groups out there that are a bit more focused on
whether it be sustainability, but for the quick community than
sustainability or landscape architecture.
(38:00):
So there are other groups out there, but it is good to see
that we are kind of moving alongat the same pace and working
together to help one another spread out in missions.
I think we we have an underlyingmission that we that really
(38:21):
drives what we do. But that's it's good to see
that. Yeah, there's collaboration
between our groups and I think that's really important.
Would you, I mean, I've, I've spoken to a lot of architects
on, on the podcast and a lot of architects kind of get involved
in sort of extracurricular groups and whether they're about
design or, you know, in London being involved in the RBA sort
(38:41):
of thing. Obviously your, your intention
is, is around your sort of diversity ideas.
Would you, I mean, there must beso many other benefits just by
finding a group of people withinthe industry and like you say,
like having different people from different areas of the
industry, not just architects, having those conversations that
are, you know, outside of the diversity of conversation just
(39:04):
about design, about the process,about architecture.
I mean, you must have found a huge amount of value in just
having that network and being involved in those things.
Yep, definitely. It's interesting.
It makes you realize sometimes how much you can be using your,
your energy on when you're in a very straight environment, how
(39:26):
much time, how much energy subconsciously put towards just
kind of making sure you're, you're, I don't know, code
switching to a degree to a degree.
But when you're in an environment where everyone is
queer, you can focus wholeheartedly on that
discussion about whatever it is and actually feel a little bit
more free and open to, to be 100% who you are and, and have
(39:51):
really constructive conversations about design with
0 distractions about every anything else that's going on.
It's yeah, it's a, it's not a conscious thing too.
But when you're in that environment, it happens
naturally, and it is really. Beautiful.
When you can do that. Yeah, No, it sounds, it sounds
like a, a wonderful initiative. And and I mean, yeah, it's, it's
(40:13):
great that you're kind of spreading amongst, you know,
throughout different states likeyou say, is that, is that the
plan sort of moving forward to, to grow as much as you can?
And yeah, partially, I think it's, it's not our focus to just
grow. And I've been on the board now
for a few years and now just started in my second term.
We've got a lot about the focuses and yes, expanding has
(40:37):
been one to provide a greater outreach and greater advocacy
and support for our community throughout the country and to
areas where they may not necessarily have that support
that they need. But in saying that the our
mission is our our core and that's at the community level as
(40:58):
well. So making sure that yes, as we
grow, as we grow, we're providing, we're keeping our
mission, but we also need to be making sure that we're keeping
it at a community level too. So that's, if you look at the
macro level, just in New York, there's communities here within
New York where there is an advocacy and support or they,
(41:20):
they need more of it. And so you're making sure that
parts of New York, communities within New York are getting
support and advocacy as well. And so that we're providing
events or programs or initiatives within this city and
not losing track of that. Sure.
In terms of, I mean, obviously you've been through architecture
(41:43):
school and, and like we kind of hinted at the beginning,
sometimes it can be a very difficult place to, to kind of
exist and with with great deadlines and and all of that.
Do you, do you think there should be more conversations
around, you know, architecture school around inclusivity and
things like that? And I suppose thinking back to
(42:04):
your experience of architecture school, you know what, what sort
of things would you like to see put in place that maybe improves
things for the future? Yeah.
And yeah, I I think that could be more.
I don't. Again, I can't speak to how
certain classes are being done now, but I know that when I
studied, there wasn't much focusat all on inclusive design.
(42:26):
And inclusive is a broad topic. And it could be inclusive in
terms of designing for accessibility or designing for
different community groups, or that there's so many types of
inclusivity that we need to be designing for.
If you're designing a project inthe middle of a neighborhood,
(42:47):
you should be designing for thatcommunity that surrounds.
You need to be inclusive of thatexisting community.
So yeah, I think it's something that we should always be pushing
more. And I think in yeah, there's
there's, if you look in the states, there's cities were
designed around segregation, redlining, literally divided
(43:09):
cities. And so especially in places
where it's been such a it's still inbuilt into the system,
these patterns are still there, there's a lot of work that needs
to be done to undo that damage that was done when redlining was
first put in place. So I mean, that's just one facet
(43:30):
of inclusivity. And I think it's important to
have that from the beginning so that as an architecture, you're
always aware and you're always thinking of that it's not an
afterthought. Yeah.
I think that's like you say, that's the that's the thing.
It's about having those sort of early dialogues and just
opening. I mean, you know, hopefully most
(43:51):
of us architects come into the profession to with the idea to
make things better and, and havethose open conversations not
dictate ideas onto people. But right, obviously they can
say you don't want yeah, being sometimes things go right along
the way. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, being aware of it is a bigpart.
So that it's not, yeah, like I say, like an afterthought or
(44:13):
something that's done as a tokengesture, because that's where
it's really meaningless. How would you, I mean, what,
what would you want people to take away from your career?
I mean, having, having, you know, spoken with you for an
hour, you know, I'm, I'm seeing this kind of incredible journey
from like, like we started with from rural Australia to New
(44:34):
York. And like you say, this sort of
progression. And, you know, you've kind of
finding yourself in, in or communicating that to the
outside world in later life sortof thing.
And, and, you know, finding yourself in New York and you
know, it feels like you being inthe right place now sort of
thing. Like how how would you kind of
reflect on your journey and whatwhat people might be able to
take from it? I feel like I'm only part way
(44:56):
who I am only part way, of course.
Not going to start on it just yet.
I'm quite excited to see what what is to come as well.
But I think from where I've gotten to so far, it's I'm glad
that I've taken opportunities toto move to New York, to move to
(45:18):
the mainland when I left Tasmania to, to take those
opportunities. And whether it be a school
exchange or actually moving country to live in another
country rather than that just being a thought of, Oh yeah, I
could do that. But no, no, it's too difficult.
But I think it's, it's valuable to if there is an idea that you
(45:40):
have or something that you want to do, there's reason behind
that and to kind of work out, you know, in mind what that
reason is and why you want to dothat, what's pushing you to do
that. And then if it's something that
you really want to do, then do it.
And it's, yes, it is difficult to move countries and there's a
lot of complexities involved with that, whether it be visas
(46:02):
or immigration. But there's so many people out
there who can help you. So finding those who those
people are and what, what is theroute to make that happen?
I think one thing that was really helpful for me earlier
on, I did like a year by year plan on kind of kind of quite
scary when you put map everything out in a year of
where you might want to be. It makes your career look really
(46:26):
short because you start working out.
Oh yeah. Well, that's I've had a year
here to to move to get licensed.Like it starts to take up chunks
of time, but then also what typeof work you might want to do and
how you work that in with your plan as well, how you're going
to get to a specific firm that you might want to work for.
(46:47):
But having that map, that 20 year plan is really useful.
And that always evolves, but it might have different paths that
DEA off it. But I think, yeah, that that
really helped me get to where I am, but not being afraid to take
a leap of faith and move to another country.
(47:10):
If it doesn't work out, then at least you gave it a go.
I think that's you've, you've kind of you've hit on my next
question, which is one that I normally ask everyone, which is
about has your career turned outhow you imagined and how much of
it being intentional and how much of it's being kind of
adaption. And I think you're probably the
one, the first people that I've spoken to that actually has
thought about the plan. Yeah, I think that's a quite a
(47:33):
strong a strong idea. Yeah, yeah, it's very, very
useful and it's something that Ican continue to go back to and
it's just like an Excel doc and visual shit.
So it's something that I'm like always reminding myself of like,
Oh yeah, I was needing to this. I need to maybe get back on
track. But I think my yeah, I mean to
(47:54):
where I am now in my career, it's I didn't have a specific
plan, like I'm going to be in New York working for this firm.
It was more, I think, what did Iwant my experiences to be?
I didn't, I never would have thought that I would have become
more of an advocate for the queer community within the
(48:15):
architecture, engineering and construction industry.
But that's something I'm so pleased that I've fallen into in
a way, and honestly is I think acore part of who I am as an
architect is providing support and advocacy for people who need
it. I think we can all, everyone can
do with a bit more of that. But yeah, no, I am very pleased
(48:40):
with where I am and I think I'velearnt a huge amount from each
of the, the steps that I've taken for the different
companies that I've worked for and the different countries that
I've worked in. Yeah, I I don't have any regrets
with the the path that I've taken.
I think it's I think it's great that you take that time to sort
(49:01):
of reflect on it and it's something maybe some of us need
to be a bit more kind of self aware and have those check
insurance, you know, with ourselves sort of thing.
How you know, we, we, we spoke about you not being done just
yet and there's so much of your career left.
What do you what, what, what is that plan moving forward?
Just just to enjoy the ride and do more of the same?
(49:22):
Or have you got another ambition?
Yeah, I, I don't have timelines on, I have to do certain things
by this this time, but I'm enjoying where I am now and
continuing to work on complex projects.
I'm looking forward to to work on more projects and of greater
complexity, maybe of larger scale.
(49:43):
And yeah, continue to do it to best find my experiences like
we're talking about before. Yeah, continuing to spread my
skills and learn more, I think. And yeah, we've built our
alliance, continuing to spread that mission and help that that
group grow as well. Brilliant.
(50:03):
Well, thank you so much for joining me.
I think you're doing some amazing stuff and long may it
continue. Thank you very much.
Thanks for having me, Chris.
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