September 9, 2025 • 55 mins
What does it take to run one of the world’s leading architecture practices? Grimshaw’s Group Managing Partner Mark Middleton shares lessons from three decades shaping global mega-projects, leading studios across continents, and keeping architects inspired on the world’s biggest stages.
0:00 - Intro
1:17 - Why architecture?
2:51 - How practical experience shapes better design
5:46 - Architecture school and a switch in work ethic
8:43 - Joining Grimshaw, working with Sir Nicholas Grimshaw and staying in one job for 30 years
11:44 - Becoming Group Managing Partner at Grimshaw
13:53 - Transitioning into leadership and staying close to projects
17:44 - How the global studio runs, board and regions
22:59 - Ambition, being asked to lead and the move to Australia
26:56 - Australia on the ground, local clients and a broader project mix
33:01 - Do big awards change anything?
37:10 - Film at Grimshaw, telling complex stories well
45:01 - Speak plainly and drop the archi-speak
54:24 - The gripe with architect stereotypes
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I generally hate architects. The more you look like an
architect, the less good you arein my opinion.
The Swan Inn and they've got thebig glasses.
It's like a middle-aged man by asports guy.
You're making up for something there, my friend.
Mark Middleton is a British architect and the group managing
partner at Grimshaw, one of the world's leading design
practices. Mark steers the studio's global
strategy and performance, drawing on more than two decades
(00:22):
of leadership across complex rail, aviation and metro
projects. Having led the London office for
a number of years, he's now based in Sydney, leading the
practice across its 8 studios worldwide whilst championing
growth, diversity and new ways of working.
How you became sort of global head partners sort of thing,
yeah. Is it a natural progression?
It's a great question. It was an ambition.
I think you're asked to do it ifyou fellow partners show your
(00:44):
the faith in you. It's a role you're given and
then you walk away from. It How do you kind of encourage
people to stay passionate about those monster projects that take
a long time? People's expectations should be
calibrated correctly. I think to young people.
It's always in stages, the design bits and stages, the
developments and stages. You've just got to be active.
What is it about this career path that gets you going, coming
(01:06):
back for more? It's the people you meet,
actually, when you're surroundedwith good people, it makes you
want to come into work every dayand and walking around that
bases you create, the buildings you create is incredibly
rewarding. Mark, thank you for joining me
and especially all the way from Australia.
No, it's my pleasure, yes, Just happened to be here for a
partner meeting and yeah, just thrilled in it.
It's good good to be back in London.
(01:27):
One question I'd like to ask allthe guests on the podcast, Why
architecture? What is it about this career
path that kind of gets you going, gets you, you know,
coming back for more? Why?
Well, I'd answer it in sort of two ways.
If that's right, Why in the 1st place?
Why in the 1st place? Because all my family are
tradesmen. They're all brick layers and
(01:47):
things like that and plumbers and what have you.
And I used to, you know, my crash was playing in the shops
and of a building site. And, but I worked out two
things. One is I didn't want to do that
job, but I also liked, you know,building things and being
involved and all that. So, so it was that, you know, I
was relatively good at drawing and, you know, naturally sort of
(02:09):
went, went into, went into architecture.
I wanted a professional job. I didn't want to do the things
that my my dad and my uncles were, were doing.
Then what what keeps me going, it's the people you meet
actually. I mean, I know realising
architecture is, is part of it and walking around that, you
know, you know, spaces you create, the buildings you create
(02:29):
is incredibly rewarding. But really, you know, in between
that it, there's a lot of conversation and a lot of
getting on with people and, and,and, you know, collaborating,
having ideas together, all that sort of stuff.
So when you're surrounded with good people, it makes you want
to come into work every day and,you know, enjoy, enjoy what
you're doing. So I would say it's a people.
(02:51):
Just on those sort of early memories sitting in the sharp
sand, what is it about that sortof experience of the kind of
tangible nature of architecture?And it's something that lots of
young architects failed to kind of experience in their early
career, you know, getting to site, getting that experience
early on. What has that sort of taken you
through and having an understanding of how, you know,
(03:11):
maybe buildings come together and, and you know, how the bits
come together. How has that kind of like formed
itself in your later career? Yeah, I think I'm very
practically minded as as a result of it.
I mean, you know, I genuinely used to bring my like toy
soldiers along and play in the sharp sand.
And they used to in the 70s theyactually put dye in the sand so
make it yellow. So I used to come back like a
(03:32):
Simpsons character, you know, completely sort of yellow has to
be scrubbed clean by my mum. But, but also late latterly, my
dad did put me to work on, you know, trying to teach me how to
relay bricks, stuff like that, which was just hopeless at but,
but, but I used to then take histools and make dens and, and do
all of those things. But I think that so when I lat
when I got into my architecturalcareer, I actually worked at the
(03:54):
Jubilee line for a period as an industrial designer because I
was very interested in, in, in, in things.
I actually was, I curated my career to get to get the job at
Grimshaws actually, because I knew that they were into
castings and metal processing and, and all that forming and
all that stuff. So I, I looked at a job to do
that and I, I was, my writing style is very, my drawing style
(04:16):
is very kind of graphic Y So it was always good for details and
I always found myself being ableto, you know, just sit down with
a pad of a three and just absolutely rattle through
through the details, which so, so building and the process of
building was, was really there in the forefront of my mind.
I don't do so much of that anymore now because my role's
changed, But that's, you know, I've, I really enjoy that and
(04:37):
the problems, the problem solving, you know, putting
these, these things together andactually what it helps in the
design. Because when, when you're
designing and sort of young, younger architects are
designing, you know, I can immediately say, well, they're
going to have trouble building that you need to really think
about, you know, the building, the building process,
manufacturing, how that might help help you into it.
And I know it's kind of probablywhat we do a lot of at Grimshaw,
(04:59):
but I think it really does help.I think you should never be
connected for it and practices should be, you know, taking
students on a ride along, you know, they should be, they
should be going to sites and, and, and listening to the
meetings and, and that's why I think, you know, maybe
controversial, but things like work from home, not necessarily
good for young architects because the incidental
(05:21):
conversations, you hear the opportunities, Oh, do you want
to come to site? They kind of missed those
things. So it's, so I think you've got
to be, you've got to be present and available, you know, to get
to get those opportunities. But I think it's it's absolutely
essential for a young architect.Yeah.
I think, I mean, we've had previous guests on the podcast
where we've spoken about those sort of commonalities between,
you know, being in the office and having those conversations
(05:42):
in an early career. So I think it is a common sort
of agreement through a lot of people within the industry.
So educated in Dundee, spent some time in Denmark and then
worked in London. Let's talk about that sort of
early career at university. I, I wanted to go to Dundee
because it was in a, it was in a, it was one of the few
architectural colleges that was in an art school and, and I
(06:03):
wanted to be surrounded by that a little bit more.
Plus it was a cheaper place to live.
I, I sort of wanted to work in London, but I didn't necessarily
study there. There's no shade thrown at
anyone who wanted to study in London.
I'm just that those are my choices.
And I really, I was AI was a terrible student up until I went
(06:23):
to university very, you know, boyish in the fact that I didn't
put a lot of time into stuff andI've kind of adjusted enough and
all that. And then when I got to uni, a
kind of penny dropped and I treated the whole thing like a
job. I remember I was in studio like
8 till 6 or 9 till 6 and, and I used to work like that all of
(06:45):
the time. And I was that irritating
student that I used to, you know, like the first two weeks,
you know, when everyone's down the coffee bar and, you know,
getting, getting drunk and not bothering coming in early.
I was in the model shop making all the bases to my models so
that when we then got the, you know, the final things all
drawn, then it was no, no computers, but it was all put
out. Everyone would go, how the hell
(07:05):
have you done all of those models?
It's because I'd done them the first three weeks.
I was very organised. But it, it, it changed me
personally and my attitude to learning.
But also I was thinking I'm, this is, I'm training for the
job, you know, the job's going to be, you know, like that.
So, so, so that's, that's what Idid.
I was lucky enough to go to Copenhagen for like an academic
(07:26):
year, most of an academic year on an Erasmus exchange, which
unfortunately people can't do anymore.
But that was really, that was really formative for me because
the students there, they designed in a totally different
way. You know, it was literally the
Danish thing about light and howlight enters it.
And they were these big models and spent hours, you know, with,
(07:46):
on, on solar analysis and, and things like that, which was
quite, I found, I found super interesting, just different sets
of people. So I thought it was, yeah, it's,
it's pretty lucky education. I think it was a good place.
And in Dundee there wasn't very much else for you to focus on.
So you focused on your studies. So it was pretty good.
I think that's a fascinating thing is it is that sort of
realisation that lots of students, and I think me in
(08:08):
particular, didn't come to realise until my Part 2 was that
thing about the production of information.
And, and like you say, just just, you know, dreaming up
ideas in the first first part and, and then actually getting
to work. But you're completely right.
You know, the way you actually practice architecture is, you
know, you go through that iterative sort of process.
So it's a good skill to learn early on I suppose.
(08:29):
Yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, I can imagine if I was
intensely annoying for my fellows students because I had
it all kind of sorted out. I did keep myself to myself as
well. I think actually my only regret
really, I don't think I had enough fun.
I think I should have had a bit more fun.
But anyway, you know. So you join Grimshaw in 1996.
Yeah. You've been there for 29 ish?
(08:50):
Yeah, in my I'm in my 30th year,Yeah.
You're in your 30th year. What is it about?
I mean, obviously you could ask hundreds of questions, but what
is it about, Grimshaw? That's kind of the ethos of the
practice that's made you stay within that practice for the
majority, if not all of your. Career it's a great question and
(09:11):
it's not something I ever reflect on particularly.
So I Grimshaws are my favorite architects when I was a student
and I really wanted to work there and when I I didn't know
this when I, when I when I got there, you know, because, you
know, you think these things areall top down and I know some
(09:31):
practices are still like that, but with Nick, he was always
very, you know, throw your ideason the table, fight for them.
You know, you know, the most junior person could come up with
the best idea. They just might not know what to
do with do with it. He always used to he always
says, you know, you know, I don't mind putting it down and
having an argument. It's an argument amongst friends
and, and I forget, I forget who said that, but it's he then
(09:54):
would say, you know, but you know, I am going to win a lot of
the arguments because I've been,I've been arguing longer than
you have. But I always found there was a
great equality in all of our discussions that you could, you
could, you could sit with him. And actually, Nick wasn't
involved in, in, in everything either.
It was, you know, different partners doing things.
And I was always given a great, great chance by by Andrew Wally.
(10:15):
He's now the chairman who was anassociate at the time.
But they used to give you great,it was great opportunities.
They would always give you the opportunity.
They would always kind of back you.
So I think that's really, it waskind of why I stayed.
And then upholding that legacy is being part of what what I'm
doing now is to make sure that younger architects get those
chances. They get chances to, you know,
(10:38):
come up with ideas. We're very big on origination in
the projects and trying to move up the chain and not just kind
of waiting at the letterbox for a tender invitation, actually go
and chase and generate our own projects now.
So, so we try and get those thatare good at good at that, you
(10:58):
know, in the position where where they can use those skills.
Because actually, I think what defines, say a partner or an
owner is the ability to win work.
And that can be through competition, through
relationship, through, through whatever, but I think that's the
differentiator. So, so, yeah, it's, it's really
been, I think it's, it's the quality of it.
And it's always been a really fun place.
I've always really enjoyed it. It's always a lot of great
(11:19):
people. And I think that is really
because I, I think people feel they've got an, they've got the
opportunity to, to kind of speakup.
They're not just in some sort ofmonastic tutelage where they're
sort of going around waiting for, you know, or whoever the,
you know, the the the big pen tokind of float in and kind of,
you know, pass down these kind of ideas admissives, which is,
you know, she's just nonsense. Architecture is not created that
(11:41):
way. So I think that's what makes us
different. I think that I mean, that leads
on to another question I was thinking about with obviously
you previously being a managing partner of the London office and
doing, doing my research, the the sort of voting system of the
partnering and how you became sort of global head partners
sort of thing. And it it does sort of come
(12:03):
across as quite a open, you know, the idea that a Part 1 can
walk in and have an understanding of how they may
end up in that sort of, you know, more senior position and
having that sort of, you know, the clarity and the sort of no
glass ceiling type attitude. Is that something you kind of
imbue with within the practice? Yeah, you, I mean, you've got to
live it. I mean, I've, I'm in, I think
(12:23):
one of the big changes we made and it was a number of years ago
now it'd be 10 or 15 years ago. Was that roles like the managing
partner or the group managing partner?
Our roles like, and, and if and if you move someone, an
architect into a, into a business role only, what do they
do after that? They've got nowhere to go.
So what, what we've, what we said was no, you're an
(12:45):
architect, but you're a role. So I've still got projects, I'm
doing a lot of West metro projects and some Sydney airport
and other, other, other things. And we actually won a really big
competition for new Gatti station in Budapest, which have
probably got cancelled because of the war.
But but you know, we were doing,you know, I'm still doing those
things. But it's a role and it's, and
it's we, we do it on a kind of like the presidential thing.
(13:07):
It's three-year term. You can never do more than two
terms. And I, I just think it, it, it
sort of keeps it fresh. You know that, you know, it's
not, you know, you, you've been asked by your fellow partners,
your fellow owners to take on the responsibility.
You take on the responsibility and then you hand it to someone
else afterwards. And certainly when I was a
London managing partner, I then handed on to Kirsten these and
(13:29):
supported her into the, into therole.
But then I went back to projectsand, and it's actually you don't
lose. I also think you don't lose
connection with the market. So if you're making business
decisions, you're still connected to the market.
You're still connected to winning projects and resourcing
and, and all, all that, all thatstuff.
You're not kind of, you know, hovering somewhere above it
because so I think you, you've got up that connection.
(13:51):
So I think it's a real, it's a real benefit for us, I think.
It's a fascinating approach because it's, it's something
that, I mean, I've experienced in my own career.
You know, you, you being promoted to a certain position,
you know, you're trained to be an architect and then someone
says, you know, you now manage this many people or you're an
associate or an associate partner or whatever.
You know, you, you don't necessarily get that training in
(14:11):
the same way. Oh, you've got no training?
Yeah, I think there's also, theycould be the Peter Principle,
you know, they, you could be promoted into incompetence, you
know, so, so, so it's kind of you've got, so I think it's you
don't know whether someone's going to be good at good at it.
But the other thing that I always thought was that at some
point in the future, you're going to be sitting around the
table and most of the people will have held that role at some
(14:32):
point. So they will all have a great
understanding of the responsibility that comes with
it because, you know, there's, there's, you know, there's
elements of it that aren't particularly, you know,
glamorous. But I'm AI think I'm a naturally
decisive person. So I found it quite, quite easy.
A lot of architects, I think sometimes shy away from those
(14:53):
things and, and those decisions.But, but I've learnt in
business, making a decision is the most important thing, even
if it's the wrong decision, as long as you've got the humility
to, you know, if it turns out tobe the wrong to, to change your
mind, then you can change your mind.
There's no rules, rules against it.
You don't lose face and all thatstuff.
So, yeah, I think it's good, butI do think it's the strength of
the business. So you, you starting 2930 odd
(15:18):
years ago now as group managing partner, What is what is that
group managing partner role and how does that sort of work with,
I suppose with Grimshaw being a such a global practice now, you
know, offices in eight offices in different locations across
the world, you being based as Sydney, previously being in
London, How does that sort of physically come together, you
(15:39):
know, your role and also the sort of autonomy of those
different offices? And well, I think if you talk
about the offices, I think we we've got a unique approach to
it. All the other practices that I
know are versions of FIFO that fly in, fly out.
You know, they've got a headquarter model.
Some of them have one or two people or three or four people.
(16:01):
We've got this because there's quite a few in Sydney, the
British practices, Mccaslin, butthere are tiny outfits.
We have a much more meaningful connection with the city.
So we've got 65 people in Sydney, there's about 50 all in
Melbourne That, that, that, thatproper local studios who are
connected to the market. You know, our fees are, are
pegged to the local market. You know, there's not, they're
not the international Ness comesfor free effectively.
(16:24):
You know, if you want to know about how we're building metros
or aviation or lessons learned from things abroad, then we can
bring that. But if you don't, we don't.
So, so, so I think it is a really a unique offer, you know,
you know, because each of the studios are really connected to
the city and the local market. So that's great In, in, in my
(16:46):
job, it's just, it's a lot of conversations.
So, so, so my role is I'm responsible for chairing the,
the, the, the board, the global board, which we've just changed
to have regional representatives.
So I'm also the regional managing partner for Australia
as well as a group managing partner just to keep the numbers
down. And we've got North America,
Europe and then Middle East, which is a kind of, we look on
(17:08):
it as an opportunity region. So we've got 20 people there who
are working away and do do some of the work.
But generally they're, they're, they're, they're, they're
basically helping the other studios run projects into there.
So, so it's, it's kind of they're, they're passed out.
Not very many get passed to Australia.
A lot more get passed to the UK or, or Europe and, and North
(17:31):
America just because of, you know, sort of time differences
and things like that. But, but for me, it's, it's just
a structured set of meetings that I meet, you know, I meet
the chairman once a week. We have a, a global board every
other week. It's always early morning for
me. It's late for UK.
So UK get a kind of, they get a bump steer, but I prefer to do
things in, in the, in the morning.
It's always good for America. It's in the middle of the day
(17:52):
and, and it's, it's really, it'sgoing through the financials and
making, you know, strategic decisions about, about that.
I've got a separate meeting thatdoes all the operational
departments. So we, you know, IT marketing
does the sustainability, there'sall sorts of, you know, behind
the scenes stuff, really important things and and they're
really important members of our company who are non
architectural, who need to be looked after and and have got
(18:13):
some good ideas about operational side.
And then, you know, we then try and put strategies together for,
you know, five year business plans and all that sort of
stuff. But so that really gets done in,
you know, in the mornings and then I do Sydney stuff, you
know, during the day, you know, run projects, design reviews,
just normal architectural stuff.I'm supposed to be 5050, but I
(18:37):
always think it's like 200%. I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing
2 jobs. But it it seems to work fine and
no complaints from the partners yet.
I'm just, yeah, I think that's the thing.
I'm just thinking in my head, you must have to have a lot of
sort of rigour in, you know, determining time split between
those things and not letting oneeat the other sort of thing.
Yeah, you've, well, I'm very good at partitioning stuff.
(19:02):
But, but, but also it's, you know, there's, there are some
tasks which, you know, they, they would expand to fit the
time available. So you've got to be quite
disciplined. So it's, that's why I think I've
become very, it's not quick decisions because that implies
this. They're not, they're not
thoughtful, but, you know, doingthe, doing the necessary
(19:25):
consultation with partners and, and, and the chairman and other
people and they're making, making a very clear, clear
decision and communicating that clearly and moving on to the
next one because there's always another one and not, not wasting
time. Procrastination is the enemy and
all of that. So I, I, I, I don't know whether
(19:45):
it's my Yorkshireness or so I'm predisposed to, you know, make a
very, very sort of quick decision and on to the next one.
And in, in, in that time period,you know, I keep mentioning the
29 years, but in that time period, did you ever sort of see
yourself in this position? You know, is it a natural?
(20:06):
I mean, maybe it probably didn'texist that that when you when
you started, but you know, is ita natural progression?
For you know you to make something and then you've seen
your career build to this position and fill into those
natural skills that you have or is something that you've kind of
gone for and kind of built upon as you go it's.
A great question. I no, it wasn't.
(20:28):
It wasn't ambition at all. I mean, I thought, I thought I
could become a director at the company.
I think I'm naturally ambitious.My partners will scoff by me
saying that when I first joined,but I did genuinely think that,
you know, you've got to back yourself.
I was confident about that and confident about having ideas
and, and I always thought I was good with people.
(20:48):
So I could, you know, be good with clients and therefore win
work, which is a differentiator,differentiator.
So I was really, I really thought that, but in terms of
being able to do this job, it was kind of, well, firstly, I
think you're asked to do it likeyou, you fellow partners show
your, the faith in you. But by asking you, I don't think
it's, I think it's something a bit grubby about you trying to
(21:09):
become it. I don't think it should be an
ambition. It should be.
It's a, it's a trust and the waywe've got, we've arranged it is
that it's a kind of, it's a roleyou're given and then you then
you walk away from it. So there's, so there's not, you
know, the reward is making sure the business is, is, makes the
right decisions. At that time, I progressively
thought I could do it. You know, as I, you know, I was
(21:31):
lucky enough to do some big projects and as I managed bigger
teams, it's not such a big step from managing big teams to
managing a studio. You know, you kind of you, you
understand the, the, the, those things I'd actually was, I was
my A levels was pretty good at economics.
I think I always had a reasonable business mind and
business is actually really is, is easy.
(21:52):
It's just, you know, revenue andcost really.
So, so if you I've got very overly simplistic kind of
thought about it. And so, so, so I didn't think, I
didn't think about it wasn't ambition, but latterly it was.
And the chairman asked me to do this particular role.
And it was just at the time thatLindsay and I were thinking
about moving to Australia. So, you know, I'm, I'm A1
(22:13):
contingent on the other. Just just just based on that,
you know, moving to Australia atthis point in your career and
obviously, you know, Grimshire already had a presence in
Australia. If you're too kind of to, to sit
into, how is that process from, you know, working for a long
period of your career in London,you know, leading the London
office? Did you have much contact with
(22:36):
Australia beforehand? And how have you sort of then
sort of, you know, made a presence and reputation and, you
know, gained contacts and thingslike that in, in a very sort of
different world? And I suppose is it, is it
different? Is it, is it more of the same?
And and what are those kind of, you know, do do they make
architecture slightly different there?
Yeah, there's a lot of lot of questions in there.
(22:57):
I, you may have to remind me of some, but I, in terms of moving,
I just got to the end of being in London, to be honest.
I, I, I, we'd just been nominated for the Sterling prize
with London Bridge, which I, I thought, I thought we should
have won. I still think we should have
won. But you know, Zeitgeist and you
(23:18):
know, Bloomberg won the year before.
So the giant project in Lip Centre London was never going to
win again. So there's a kind of, there's an
end there. And I just wanted a different
challenge. I wanted to work in a smaller
studio actually, and have, have,have, you know, I remember, you
know, there were 30 people in the entire company when I
joined. And I, I wanted to, to sort of
(23:41):
feel that again, my connection with Australia goes back to the
very beginning. I mean, I, I, I did the bid with
Keith Brewis and, and the designwork on Southern Cross station,
which, which set up our office in, in Melbourne and started our
presence in Australia. And I'd, I'd more or less been
back every year since to, to, toeither for work or just to visit
(24:02):
because I like to visit. A lot of my friends had
transferred from our office there and I liked Australia.
So it may be in a way there was always going to happen.
And then, but it was actually, it was Lindsay's choice.
Lindsay wanted to move and, and I was up for a move.
I thought to myself, I'm actually going to go to America
(24:23):
the way that I'd kind of had it my mind before I met Lindsay.
And then and then she then, thenthis, this kind of came out.
And then it was like I say, it was just exactly the same time
the chairman, they were looking at Vincent Chang, who was the
old group managing partner with stepping down.
He got to the end of his term sothat they, they wanted me to do
it. And there was a, an established
(24:43):
business there. And our business there does a
lot of metro and rail and aviation, which is the three
things that I've, I've got more skill in, I guess, or I've more
experienced in. So I just, I could, I could, I
could slot in there. There's a lot of Brits there.
There's a lot of, you know, engineering firms and people
that I know. So, so it wasn't entirely new.
(25:05):
It is different. It is different.
It's your connection to market is a bit like it was at the
start at Grimshaw. There's a bit more of a closer,
closer connection in, in, in, inLondon.
It's become, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of
veil which is of the tendering and, and other, other, other,
other process. You, you you're very because a
(25:27):
fairness or something, you're kind of, you can't touch it.
You, you you're separate from itand it's quite difficult.
It's also very regimented. It's it's, you know, gone are
the days where, you know, I haven't done a school, but I can
I illustrate, you know, I can. I moved attendant to a school
because I go, well, what are thelast five skills have you done?
You know, what is the last five?You know, so you can't you so
young practices can't break intothat sort of stuff.
(25:48):
So it's impossible. Yeah.
Especially what we do transport.So actually we do partner with
younger practices and I think HS2 and others have been quite
good at, at pushing that. And I think it's a good idea.
But anyway, well, you're separate from it.
Whereas in Australia and Sydney,you, you're close to it.
You know, you can go meet clients, you can come actually
meet ministers, you can go meet,you know, they'll come to your
(26:09):
office and chat to you. And, and, and I, I think that's
a, it's, it's actually a much better way because you
understand clients better. So, so I think, and I think I've
managed to establish, I've been there nearly five years,
established some good, good, good connections.
I was been supported into it by my fellow partner there,
Michael, who, who's, who's been there for been with us for like
(26:30):
10 odd years and he's he's very connected to the, the developer
market. All the studios have got their
own site character and their ownthings that they do.
We're probably much more connected in Sydney to developer
clients and workplace Rezi thosekind of developments than we are
anywhere else in the world. We, we, we probably don't have
(26:52):
hardly any of that in in London,but we have lots of that in
Sydney. So each place has its own
connection to market because themarkets are different.
And does that, I mean with the studios being able to go, you
know, take advantage of those different connections in, in
different locations, it, it kindof it morphs your strategy in
different locations and you, yougo with those opportunities, I
(27:14):
suppose. Yeah, it is different.
It is different in different places.
But we also get kind of larger what we call significant bids.
And those significant bids have to go up to the board to get
agreement for, you know, say, involve more than one studio or
they, they, some of the fees aregoing to be more than sort of
30% of fees in any one year or, or it's going to be, you know,
(27:38):
extra of people are going to work on it.
So we could kind of kind of strategize that or it's going to
cost a lot. It's usually aviation or, or, or
metro projects. But yeah, you can kind of go for
anything you want. And the, the thing for me, it's
been great is I'm now, you know,I'm bidding in high school, I'm
bidding. We got some residential staff,
(27:58):
you know, we've got a lot of industrial.
So I've been able to do lots of things that I, you know, I was
put in my box here, I was firmlyin the, in the rail kind of
aviation box. And, and you could, and also you
have the partners who are doing other things who, you know,
they've got their connection. So there was no, it was very
difficult for me to have a diverse influence on projects.
(28:19):
So by moving, you know, I felt that I, I could.
Yeah, I think that's positive interms of, I mean, obviously
young people are coming into theprofession and particularly
coming into sectors like rail and aviation and things like
that. You know, these are monster
projects that take a long time, you know, just the competitions
to take it forward and and things like that, you know, they
(28:40):
could be a a large portion of your career.
How do you kind of encourage people to, you know, stay
passionate about those projects for that period of time?
And I think something that I've experienced and lots of young
people that I speak to is like, you know, the actual process of
architecture is quite slow. You know, you will put a lot of
time and effort into something and a lot of times it will pause
(29:01):
or it will take a long time justto, you know, move forward sort
of thing. And particularly with, you know,
like I say those those sectors being of such scale.
Yeah, I mean, architecture is a slow, slow profession.
So I think that people's expectations should be
calibrated correctly. It does take a long time.
I think big projects like that, I was, we had Neil Mcclements,
who's we won the Sterling for the Elizabeth line and he was
(29:24):
giving a keynote in Sydney last week and he gave, he then gave
that again to our office and it and he was, it's 13 years on
that project. I actually, I think I did the
bid with him. He wasn't even a partner, I
don't think when we started thatproject, but there've been lots
of people on that job and some of them are now in Sydney.
And I would, I would, I think to, to young people, it's always
(29:44):
in stages, the design bits in stages, the developments in
stages. I on London Bridge, we had AI
thought we had a good, good strategy.
There was myself, there was a principal, there was an
associate principal on it. And we, we kind of strategized,
we said, right, I'll run the project now when it goes into
site, the principal runs it and then you'll run it for a year
and a bit. And then you'll hand out, you'll
(30:05):
come back to the office and you'll hand it over to this
person. And so we had a strategy kind of
laid out over the life of the project on site and, and people
sort of cycled in and cycled outand out out of it.
And I think that project leadersand sometimes are reluctant to
do that because they're like, you know, oh, they hold all the
knowledge. It's like if they don't, you
know, and knowledge can be passed on being a professionals
(30:26):
can pick things up. Guess you can't, you can't hand
over the relationships, I guess,but you, you can plan for it.
And I think it just takes you'vejust got to be active in it.
It's I think some leaders are just lazy.
Keep it as it is. And I think people can stagnate
or that they can get bored and they want to find a new
challenge. It's, it's up to us to recognise
(30:48):
the abilities in people and thenplace them in the right place.
Because as, as you'll know, whenyou're, when you're, you're
designing a project and buildinga project, there are different
skills and actually being a generalist, you know, being able
to design, you know, do the commercials, manage on site
details. It's, it's actually fairly rare,
(31:09):
you know, I think to find, to find generalists.
We've got, we've got quite a fewin our usually partners tend to
be generalists, but there are other people are in, in, in, in
the, in the business. So you do need to have to have
all of those skills and experience of, of all of that.
So I think, I think breaking it,sorry, a long answer to your
question is break it down, make it fun and interesting, you
(31:32):
know, and, and it's, and it's, it's kind of important, you
know, for me, I, I'm able to go around these, these public
buildings that we do and get great joy from walking around
Paddington or going to the London London Bridge and think
that, you know, I've had a hand handle in this.
It's not alongside lots of otherpeople.
I'm not saying I did this. I've contributed to, to the
(31:53):
Crimshaw team who did it. And, and there's a great sense
of pride with that. And yeah, it's eight years of
your life on nearly 10. But you know, like I say, we're
cycling people in and out. And, and so I think, I think, I
think that's, that's how you do it.
But if you want to change cities, you've got to be in it
for the long haul. So you, you just, you've got to
understand that. But I imagine it is quite
(32:14):
daunting if you're, if you're younger and looking at it.
But it's it's something to be embraced, not run away from.
Just with those, you know, you mentioned London Bridge, which
was up for the Sterling and thenthe Elizabeth Lyon which won it.
What is the impact of, you know,an office?
Well, particularly, I suppose a sector, you know, there was,
(32:36):
there was a lot of sort of applaud to the Elizabeth's line
for, you know, a sector like rail, you know, being, being up
there with the sterling and winning it and things like that.
And what is the impact of that on, I suppose on an office
generally, you know, the, the, the, the power of, you know,
such a sort of prestigious award.
(32:56):
I think it was very well deserved.
I think it's a real, it's a complete work, you know, from
the industrial design, Everything is it's, it's a
fantastic project and well deserved.
For us. It was, it was nice for Nick
because Nick had, you know, he'dnot, he'd had the disappointment
of, of Eden and then, you know, we'd had the disappointment of
(33:18):
Bill Murran, we'd had the disappointment of London Bridge.
So it was nice to win it finally.
So everyone felt a kind of, there was a collective glow
around the world and we will raise glasses.
So, so that's, that's great. How much is going to affect our,
our business? I mean, again, to be
controversial, I don't think it's going to affect it at all.
It's like, you know, we've won, you know, we've won a prize for
(33:40):
Metro and it's like everyone knows we can do metro.
So it's not like, you know, I think we're one of the best in
the world at doing any transportation scheme, but I
think that is known anyway. So it's a kind of affirmation.
I don't think it's going to change.
I don't think it'll change our business.
That's my view. But it's great.
It's great. And, and you know why you win,
it's zeitgeist. It's not, it's not, I don't
(34:04):
think the best building wins. I think that, you know, because
the Eden Project didn't win. The Eden Project was by far and
away the best build building that year.
It was, you know, politics and, and, and, and whatever's been
talked about at that particular time, it, it was the jurors.
So, you know, and that's not Sarah Grates by the way, that's
just, that's them's the facts. I don't, because also, I think
(34:25):
it's really difficult for the jury to, you know, reconcile,
you know, some back-to-back housing in East Anglia with a
station in central London. I mean, that's how do you do
that super, super hard. So I, I, I think it's difficult.
So, so you know, I remember Neilwas, he was about to go through
this process and of course, I'd gone through the process a few
(34:47):
years earlier and he's like, oh,we've got any advice?
You know, what, what, what can we do?
And I just said, just enjoy it. And it doesn't matter whether we
win or lose, who, who like, who cares, really, just enjoy it
because it's nice. You're in the limelight.
You get to see our project becomes talked about.
It's fantastic. Whether you win or lose or not.
It's, you know, it's who know, Imean it like it's just, it's
(35:07):
not, it's not, it's hard, it's hard to calibrate or judge
across all of these varied, varied projects.
And it's just, it depends on it depends on the, the juror.
And sometimes the juries are good and sometimes you, you
think, how on earth have these people got, got on a jury?
So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not that bothered.
(35:27):
And he, I think he took great solace in that.
I just kind of enjoyed it as I did.
I mean, I just, you know, I'd, I'd write or laugh doing it.
I thought it was really funny and I had some good, good
things. My, my, my best memory from that
whole thing was we're in Sheffield.
They do like a thing up in the North and you can give a
presentation and they, you know,did we did all, we all presented
(35:49):
and they then went, they, they did that.
Who do you think's going to win?You know, you know, like a
difficult question. And so of course everybody went,
oh, well, you know, they're all very good.
They're all worthy winners. You know, there's fantastic
projects here. We're just really went along the
line. It got to me and I said, oh, I
think Annalise is going to win. And they went, what, what, what
(36:10):
do you mean? And I was like, well, you know,
that we want to do regional housings on the agenda that,
that, that the president of the of the RBA is currently runs a
housing practice. It's like, guys, you know, we've
got, you know, this thing about gender equality.
And Alex is a strong leader of that.
But, you know, ticks all the boxes that he's going to win.
And so they're all sort of, you know, I thought it was great for
(36:33):
her. It was very mischievous of me.
And well as you probably know I put a bet on her to win and and
and my only regret was I only put 10 lbs and not 1000 lbs on
it. 11 to 1. Brilliant.
And and it's great and it's a great scheme.
It's a lovely scale. I don't want anybody to think
that sale goes, it's a great scheme and it's a great, great,
great that they won, fantastic for their for their business.
(36:55):
I think it was transformative, you know, and really elevate
them. And they've gone on to do
brilliant work in Sheffield on on this, the Department of
Housing and all that Fantastic. But you know that that whole
process is just, you know, who knows, of course.
One thing I wanted to talk to you about was your passion for
film. So I know that you did an MA in
film earlier in your career. And I know looking at the
(37:18):
website, Grimshaw have sort of gone fully into creating, you
know, films about your work. And I know the film that you're
involved in sort of celebrating Nick's life career.
How I suppose how important to you is it having a passion, you
know, like that, that kind of sits outside, if not alongside
(37:38):
architecture? And I suppose what a joy it is
to try and you know, have that to to bring into your career
with your practice now. Yeah, I love the film.
Is is always been really important to me.
My mum used to take me down the ABC cinema.
I was like obviously a bit of a nightmare.
Charles, he used to drop me off on a Saturday while she was
doing a shopping and the ABC cangive me some money.
(38:00):
I used to go and see the Children's Film Foundation films
and they'd they'd do it like there's AB feature.
I used to just sitting there, you know, literally I was the
kid, you know, kind of wide eyedwatching, watching films.
I'd watch, I'd watch. I still to this day, I'd watch
anything. And what what why I got the MA
was because I was London managing partner at the time and
I felt like my brain was turningto mush and I I just wanted to
(38:22):
become I wanted to become a better writer.
I just wanted to try and, you know, just have some structured
learning. And the other thing was as well,
I wanted to walk into a room where I wasn't expected to talk
first, because when you're a London managing partner,
everyone sits down and they lookat you and go and you go, right,
OK, today's the gender is blah, blah.
So I just wanted to be able to sit at the back of the room and
have someone else talk to me. And the structure of my learning
(38:45):
because I was, you know, I was really interested in Korean
film, which has become very, very popular and big with, you
know, Parasite and all that. So, so, but, but I loved that
and I loved the, the, the, the language of film and I love
everything about it, from the gossip to everything.
So when and I think it's a really effective way of getting
complicated stories across. I think film generally has gone
(39:05):
a bit weird recently because of digital and improv and you know,
films are two and three hours long.
I thought they're rubbish. Like brutalist is just not a
good film and should never have won the Oscar.
But but the they I love that storytelling.
I love the kind of the, the ability to do something, get so
(39:26):
much information across either through visuals and, or, or
speech. And so we, well, what happened
was I decided to make 2 films. So I made a film at Pork of Hope
and a film in reading. And I, I was, you know, key
grip, best boy, you know, I did all the other thing and the
music, we did everything. And it's a bit shonky, but I,
(39:48):
but I kind of did it and to showNick and I said, Nick, you know,
this is how we should to get thestories, some of the stories
about our, our, our projects out.
(40:12):
Hi, it's November 2012 and we'rehere in Saint Petersburg at the
new Pocovo International Airport.
This is a project we won in 2007for a new combined domestic and
international terminal designed for 17,000,000 passengers a
year. The building's been constructed
behind me. This is the first phase of the
project for 12 million passengers a year and should be
finished in December 2013. And we could become a leader and
(40:34):
we've done 40 or 50 films now and we we have a two or
three-year. We've still got a program.
I'm still producer, not in that I produce them, but I'm the kind
of producer and I think they're really, really valuable.
The, the issue we have is that, you know, the architects get in
there, the project leaders don'twant to tell the whole story.
And it's like, you know, you should only be telling part,
part of the story or the bit that's most interesting and
(40:56):
important. And so, you know, you know, the,
the edits kind of go out to 6-7 minutes.
Nobody cares. You know it's going to be 2 1/2
three minutes. It's like 2 1/2 hour films don't
interest me. 90 minute films interest me because it's, you
know, you, there's obviously discipline gone into it.
So I, I think it's a really great thing that we do, we're
continuing to do it that there'san archival legacy aspect as
(41:19):
well, because we can get people who've been been in the done the
project. Some of them are still with us,
some of them are not. It's good for we've gone back
through some of the older projects to do those as well and
revisit them. So I think it's a great
resource. I don't think we've ever made
enough of it on our socials And and I think we've been typically
kind of Grimshaw and I've had all hell sort of hidden our
(41:41):
light under the bushel about that.
But but I think we we'll continue to make them.
We're just thinking about the ones we're going to make in the
future and we want to do the Parramatta pool and a couple of
other projects might in place. So we're we're we're thinking
about the ones in in in future. But but I, I really like we've
got a film maker, Ned Williams, who, who does, who's done a lot
(42:01):
of, you know, the majority of them.
And I've got a great relationship with Ned because
it's, you know, I as a producer,I just I, I, I don't go, you
know, time carried, you know, 1212 sort of take this out.
You know, I'm like a lot of architects do.
I'm just trying to take over. I sort of say, well, it's a bit
too long. You know, I don't like the
(42:21):
beginning. You know, I think we should
start like this and just give some general and then he's the
film makers. He's he's then he's then going
to do it. So I think, I think it's been
been great for us, But I, you know, for me personally, it's
really important to have something else.
It is kind of with architecture adjacent and it's helped even
with our Cgis now and our animations.
(42:44):
I've been encouraging them to use Dolly shots and to use, you
know, other things. Appreciation of that.
Because we've all got filmic language I don't think we
understand. We've watched so much visual
media that we've been schooled in it.
So this kind of GoPro walking around a building nonsense,
which, you know, like some sort of video game.
(43:04):
It's like nobody wants to experience.
You're selling a building because that's what we're doing.
We're selling an idea or an experience or a feeling.
Then then you can use that filmic language.
So I think it's super important to me and I do take little shots
and notes and, and, and, and things with, with films and
think, Oh, I'll be really good for that project or this
(43:26):
project. And so I think it's been, I
think it's been a good, real, real benefit to us.
And I really did enjoy doing thesome kind of joy, which is the,
which is the film kind of reallyabout Nick, which I, I, I did
enjoy putting that together. We had a film maker do it, but I
enjoyed being involved in that. That was tremendous.
And we had a proper premiere at the at a cinema just by
(43:51):
Piccadilly Circus. It's fantastic.
It was really quite anarchy. This is indeed the age of
change. It's a whole new way of
thinking, cross between mechanical engineering,
sculpture and rocket science. It was almost a fetish of
(44:12):
beautiful, gleaming industrial objects.
A building like this next to Regions Park over my dead body,
he said. I think there's a really nice
parallel that I've I've sort of like been been listening to with
your sort of idea around sort ofsuccinct communication.
And like you just, you know, sort of mentioned about the
three hour film versus the 90 minute discipline movie.
(44:34):
And you know what you were saying earlier about in your
sort of leadership style of thatsuccinct communication and
things. How and I think it's I suppose
it's the thing that architects struggle with is, is, you know,
determined choice communication.You know, you speak to any young
architect and they'll tell you 100 problems without, you know,
sort of giving you the solution sort of thing.
(44:56):
How important do you think having that sort of clear
communication is and has been inyour career?
But I think it's, I do think it's incredibly important and I
think that if you take a step back, fundamentally what
architects do is they take complicated things and they make
them simple is what they do. They take a bunch of effects
(45:18):
parameters, things and make it simple and then communicate
that, you know, simply or, or, or you should be communicating
that simply. Sorry.
What they then do is they wrap it in Archie, what I call Archie
bollocks. They just talk in this kind of
weird language that only architects do, in this self
aggrandisement and pomposity andpretentiousness.
(45:38):
And it just, it turns me cold and, and I think, you know, why
can't we carry on speaking very,very clearly about it?
Because surely we'd have much more effective communication
with the, the users who don't use architectural language with,
with, with, with clients, developers, engineers,
collaborators like that, who would then respect us a bit
(45:59):
more. I think we, I think we harm
ourselves. But I think in terms of the
communication, I think also the problem architects have is they,
they want to show how clever they are.
You know, they've, it's a difficult job.
I've managed to balance all these conflicting things and now
I'm going to show you how to do it.
But it was like, you know, it's like a magician telling you how
(46:19):
he's done the trick straight after he's done the trick.
I always think it's like, you know, just just leave it as it
is. The simple communication, you
know, the buildings about this and leave it at that.
But they always seem to want to write like a 5000 word essay
about it. Pointless.
I think that is a wonderful thing about when you
particularly think about Grimshaw and the types of
projects that you do, particularly the public ones,
(46:41):
you know, the different people moving through those spaces, you
know, the hundreds of thousands,you know, millions of people
walk, you know, going through those large projects all
interpreting it in their own, you know, sort of way and stuff.
It is, you know, the kind of power of architecture of that
sort of thing. It is experienced by so many
people, I suppose. Yeah.
And and that's, you know, it's the reason why we did that film
(47:02):
and it was called some kind of joy because it's Nick's phrase.
He said, you know, we want people to use it and for it to
be easy to use. And but it also we want to give
them some kind of joy when when they're when they're going
through it. And I think that it, some of the
small choices we make, be it theLondon Bridge, you've got the
timber and there's just that little, there's that kind of
humanizing element and the warmness and you know, something
(47:24):
that's maybe a little bit unusual in spaces like that
because it can be quite cavernous and maybe a bit bit
hostile or Fulton Centre with the light coming down at that
particular part. It's what's kind of dark and
small. That's a way.
So to go in there. It's just this generous, large
light filled space. It's, it's, it's quite unusual.
And people can enjoy that on theon their daily commute.
(47:44):
It might just give them a, a bitof a smile.
So I really, I think it's those moments that, that, that, that
we, that we all work for. You know, I used the, I came in
on the Elizabeth line from Heathrow on Friday when I was
travelling in and, you know, it brought a smile to my face.
It was just, you know, kind of easy, joyous kind of experience.
(48:05):
And, and I know what's happened behind the The Wizard of Oz
curtain. I know what's happened, but it
just put simply, it just felt kind of luxuriant.
It felt sort of spacious and just really beautifully done.
And I was really proud of what we've done and the fact that our
business can do it, cuz I think only we can do things like that.
(48:28):
That's what I think, anyway. Perfect.
Just to wrap up your career, obviously, you know, with
Grimshaw stuff. You're wrapping up my career.
Yeah, we're wrapping, it's done.Sorry, it's over in, in terms
of, you know, reflecting and, and it's something you, I always
kind of ask the guests and obviously you don't normally
spend much time sort of navel gazing and reflecting on your
(48:48):
own career. And it's only these kind of
opportunities that allow it. What do you think people could
take away from, you know, our conversation and your career
that you've kind of, you know, the some of the key things for
probably young people coming into the profession?
You know, what are those kind ofkey skills or key stories you
can think of? Well, I think I was determined
(49:11):
to become an architect. I thought it matched my skills.
I wanted to work for Grimshaw. So I set out a plan in terms of
the, the work that I got. So my CV was built in the right
way. I had a really good work ethic.
So, you know, my, my dad always used to say, you know, let no
(49:33):
one outwork you. You know, you can be as clever
as you want, but no one outwork you.
And I'm not advocating long hours, by the way, because I
don't work long hours. I'm AI like to, you know, work
the, the normal hour time and, and, but really work super,
super effectively, but don't letanyone outwork you.
And then I think find something you just you really enjoy doing
(49:56):
and surround yourself with greatpeople.
Align yourself with the great people who are fun and, you
know, share their experiences and, and and and and their
stories. Because I've, I've been super
lucky at Grimshaw with all the people I've I've worked with or
worked for, they've always been super generous with their time
and they've been really, you know, influential.
(50:19):
But I've just, I've really enjoyed it.
I feel, I feel incredibly lucky and I'm looking forward to, you
know, many, many more years of, of, of, of doing projects and,
and completely some amazing spaces around the world.
I've, I haven't actually built anything in Sydney yet.
So that's an ambition. And yeah, I don't know.
(50:40):
It's, I think also be decisive and don't procrastinate.
You know, this, you don't, you don't have to pay a price.
I think, I think there's too much set on, on, on on
decisions. You know, like, I think it
starts at college for, for, for students and, and there's a
pressure to have an idea or the idea when I do design reviews as
(51:03):
an example, like people, you know, they like sit up and do
design reviews for hours. And, and I, I don't do that with
my team. It's 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
OK. And we just, we go, OK, let's
go. Is this where we're going to go?
Then they go away and test it and come back.
So I'd rather have 5-10 minute conversations, 15 minute
conversations as a review than sit around for an hour, you
(51:24):
know, sort of, you know, everyone's speaking and, you
know, self aggrandising, you know.
So I think it's being an architecture is, yeah.
Well, the other thing is I'm notsure architecture is an art.
I I think it's a, it's a sort of, it's a way of operating and
which involves creativity and ideas and, and great thoughts
and some philosophising and, and, and and and, you know,
(51:49):
social values and all, all, all,all of that stuff.
But it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a method of working.
And you shouldn't think that it's a it's, it's an art because
I don't know many art, much art that you do with, you know, 7080
other people and, and, and otherother, other, other disciplines.
You're reliant upon other disciplines going into them.
So it's a, it's a really different thing.
(52:10):
So I don't know, sorry. Hopefully you can.
They can pick the peanuts from the poo there.
Perfect. So thank you so much for joining
me. And yeah.
Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it.
And yeah, I hope people find it enjoyable.
Thank you, Margaret. Thank you, you know, it's one of
(52:31):
my book bears is bloody. You know, like tutors at
architecture school who just who've just been students.
So what the fuck are you? What do you know like you like
you've just you've come out of auni.
You're. Just creating more of.
You. Yeah, I know exactly.
It's just sort of, it's not whatcan you teach them because
you've not learned anything. And then the people, the people
who should be, I guess, like me,who got too busy.
(52:53):
I can't, I've got, I've got. Oh, you can't.
You can't go do it. Well, I'm, I'm, I am tutoring
people, but they work for me and, you know, you try and give
them opportunities, but I just stuff like that.
Just sort of 1, you know, one, we had some good tutors at
Dundee and older guys and women who were, you know, quite,
quite, quite experienced. But it was, it was a bit more of
a technical school than a sort of crazy, wacky, kind of like
(53:15):
like a sort of Barlow or anything like that.
It was a high tech school as well.
So they, they, they, they eitherdid vernacular or they did high
tech. So, so which suited me down to
the ground. So that's, that's kind of what I
wanted to do. We're quite good on the
challenge and like, you know, strategically, do you, do you
know, what are your higher order?
What you actually, what problem are you actually trying to solve
(53:36):
here? You know, take the practical
exit of it. What are you actually trying to
solve? What do you want to do is OK,
right. And then so, so we quite, we've
become quite skilled in, you know, getting to ask the right,
ask the right questions, you know, to, to, to, you know,
because it's the architecture bit comes later.
I mean, that's the problem with a lot of architects is they come
and they've already got an idea and then they spend all of their
(53:58):
time trying to shove the programinto the, into the, into the
idea that they've had, which waswrong anyway, wrong, wrong from
the start. It's like, you know, it's like
the architecture bit comes so much later.
And, and, and, and surely it should respond to the
parameters. It should respond to the things
you think you're trying to do. But a lot of architects come
with a, you know, preconceived idea, normally fashion by their
(54:23):
own limitations. So I would say there's a thing
you didn't ask. I generally hate architects.
That's my sort of thing. They're all pretentious.
I was getting that. Right.
The the more you look like an architect, the less good you are
in my my my opinion. So it's all black didn't.
You've got to be, you've got a bit.
No, you know, the big people arecoming.
(54:44):
They're kind of they're swan in and they've got the big glasses
and all that stuff that you think you are.
It's literally like a, it's likea middle-aged man by a sports
guy. You know, you're making up for
something then, my friend, you know, like all the best
architects I know are just normal looking people.
So, so there's, there's there's but, but no, there are.
I don't, not all architects. I mean sort of it's there are
(55:06):
goods. You know, the people who work
for us are good. Just, you know, it's architects
just normal. You're not a master of the
universe. You're like, you say you're in
the middle, you're in the middleand your job is to bring
everything together. So, So it's so.
And that's, that's why architects can do it until
they're 80 or 90 years old because it's actually quite, you
know, it's a, it's a collaborative thing.
(55:27):
It's, you know, it's not on yourown shoulders.
The one people I've seen, you know, wear themselves out
there've been those who are justdespots.
Yeah. It's all through me.
Yeah.
I generally hate architects. The more you look like an
architect, the less good you arein my opinion.
The Swan Inn and they've got thebig glasses.
It's like a middle-aged man by asports guy.
You're making up for something there, my friend.
Mark Middleton is a British architect and the group managing
partner at Grimshaw, one of the world's leading design
practices. Mark steers the studio's global
strategy and performance, drawing on more than two decades
(00:22):
of leadership across complex rail, aviation and metro
projects. Having led the London office for
a number of years, he's now based in Sydney, leading the
practice across its 8 studios worldwide whilst championing
growth, diversity and new ways of working.
How you became sort of global head partners sort of thing,
yeah. Is it a natural progression?
It's a great question. It was an ambition.
I think you're asked to do it ifyou fellow partners show your
(00:44):
the faith in you. It's a role you're given and
then you walk away from. It How do you kind of encourage
people to stay passionate about those monster projects that take
a long time? People's expectations should be
calibrated correctly. I think to young people.
It's always in stages, the design bits and stages, the
developments and stages. You've just got to be active.
What is it about this career path that gets you going, coming
(01:06):
back for more? It's the people you meet,
actually, when you're surroundedwith good people, it makes you
want to come into work every dayand and walking around that
bases you create, the buildings you create is incredibly
rewarding. Mark, thank you for joining me
and especially all the way from Australia.
No, it's my pleasure, yes, Just happened to be here for a
partner meeting and yeah, just thrilled in it.
It's good good to be back in London.
(01:27):
One question I'd like to ask allthe guests on the podcast, Why
architecture? What is it about this career
path that kind of gets you going, gets you, you know,
coming back for more? Why?
Well, I'd answer it in sort of two ways.
If that's right, Why in the 1st place?
Why in the 1st place? Because all my family are
tradesmen. They're all brick layers and
(01:47):
things like that and plumbers and what have you.
And I used to, you know, my crash was playing in the shops
and of a building site. And, but I worked out two
things. One is I didn't want to do that
job, but I also liked, you know,building things and being
involved and all that. So, so it was that, you know, I
was relatively good at drawing and, you know, naturally sort of
(02:09):
went, went into, went into architecture.
I wanted a professional job. I didn't want to do the things
that my my dad and my uncles were, were doing.
Then what what keeps me going, it's the people you meet
actually. I mean, I know realising
architecture is, is part of it and walking around that, you
know, you know, spaces you create, the buildings you create
(02:29):
is incredibly rewarding. But really, you know, in between
that it, there's a lot of conversation and a lot of
getting on with people and, and,and, you know, collaborating,
having ideas together, all that sort of stuff.
So when you're surrounded with good people, it makes you want
to come into work every day and,you know, enjoy, enjoy what
you're doing. So I would say it's a people.
(02:51):
Just on those sort of early memories sitting in the sharp
sand, what is it about that sortof experience of the kind of
tangible nature of architecture?And it's something that lots of
young architects failed to kind of experience in their early
career, you know, getting to site, getting that experience
early on. What has that sort of taken you
through and having an understanding of how, you know,
(03:11):
maybe buildings come together and, and you know, how the bits
come together. How has that kind of like formed
itself in your later career? Yeah, I think I'm very
practically minded as as a result of it.
I mean, you know, I genuinely used to bring my like toy
soldiers along and play in the sharp sand.
And they used to in the 70s theyactually put dye in the sand so
make it yellow. So I used to come back like a
(03:32):
Simpsons character, you know, completely sort of yellow has to
be scrubbed clean by my mum. But, but also late latterly, my
dad did put me to work on, you know, trying to teach me how to
relay bricks, stuff like that, which was just hopeless at but,
but, but I used to then take histools and make dens and, and do
all of those things. But I think that so when I lat
when I got into my architecturalcareer, I actually worked at the
(03:54):
Jubilee line for a period as an industrial designer because I
was very interested in, in, in, in things.
I actually was, I curated my career to get to get the job at
Grimshaws actually, because I knew that they were into
castings and metal processing and, and all that forming and
all that stuff. So I, I looked at a job to do
that and I, I was, my writing style is very, my drawing style
(04:16):
is very kind of graphic Y So it was always good for details and
I always found myself being ableto, you know, just sit down with
a pad of a three and just absolutely rattle through
through the details, which so, so building and the process of
building was, was really there in the forefront of my mind.
I don't do so much of that anymore now because my role's
changed, But that's, you know, I've, I really enjoy that and
(04:37):
the problems, the problem solving, you know, putting
these, these things together andactually what it helps in the
design. Because when, when you're
designing and sort of young, younger architects are
designing, you know, I can immediately say, well, they're
going to have trouble building that you need to really think
about, you know, the building, the building process,
manufacturing, how that might help help you into it.
And I know it's kind of probablywhat we do a lot of at Grimshaw,
(04:59):
but I think it really does help.I think you should never be
connected for it and practices should be, you know, taking
students on a ride along, you know, they should be, they
should be going to sites and, and, and listening to the
meetings and, and that's why I think, you know, maybe
controversial, but things like work from home, not necessarily
good for young architects because the incidental
(05:21):
conversations, you hear the opportunities, Oh, do you want
to come to site? They kind of missed those
things. So it's, so I think you've got
to be, you've got to be present and available, you know, to get
to get those opportunities. But I think it's it's absolutely
essential for a young architect.Yeah.
I think, I mean, we've had previous guests on the podcast
where we've spoken about those sort of commonalities between,
you know, being in the office and having those conversations
(05:42):
in an early career. So I think it is a common sort
of agreement through a lot of people within the industry.
So educated in Dundee, spent some time in Denmark and then
worked in London. Let's talk about that sort of
early career at university. I, I wanted to go to Dundee
because it was in a, it was in a, it was one of the few
architectural colleges that was in an art school and, and I
(06:03):
wanted to be surrounded by that a little bit more.
Plus it was a cheaper place to live.
I, I sort of wanted to work in London, but I didn't necessarily
study there. There's no shade thrown at
anyone who wanted to study in London.
I'm just that those are my choices.
And I really, I was AI was a terrible student up until I went
(06:23):
to university very, you know, boyish in the fact that I didn't
put a lot of time into stuff andI've kind of adjusted enough and
all that. And then when I got to uni, a
kind of penny dropped and I treated the whole thing like a
job. I remember I was in studio like
8 till 6 or 9 till 6 and, and I used to work like that all of
(06:45):
the time. And I was that irritating
student that I used to, you know, like the first two weeks,
you know, when everyone's down the coffee bar and, you know,
getting, getting drunk and not bothering coming in early.
I was in the model shop making all the bases to my models so
that when we then got the, you know, the final things all
drawn, then it was no, no computers, but it was all put
out. Everyone would go, how the hell
(07:05):
have you done all of those models?
It's because I'd done them the first three weeks.
I was very organised. But it, it, it changed me
personally and my attitude to learning.
But also I was thinking I'm, this is, I'm training for the
job, you know, the job's going to be, you know, like that.
So, so, so that's, that's what Idid.
I was lucky enough to go to Copenhagen for like an academic
(07:26):
year, most of an academic year on an Erasmus exchange, which
unfortunately people can't do anymore.
But that was really, that was really formative for me because
the students there, they designed in a totally different
way. You know, it was literally the
Danish thing about light and howlight enters it.
And they were these big models and spent hours, you know, with,
(07:46):
on, on solar analysis and, and things like that, which was
quite, I found, I found super interesting, just different sets
of people. So I thought it was, yeah, it's,
it's pretty lucky education. I think it was a good place.
And in Dundee there wasn't very much else for you to focus on.
So you focused on your studies. So it was pretty good.
I think that's a fascinating thing is it is that sort of
realisation that lots of students, and I think me in
(08:08):
particular, didn't come to realise until my Part 2 was that
thing about the production of information.
And, and like you say, just just, you know, dreaming up
ideas in the first first part and, and then actually getting
to work. But you're completely right.
You know, the way you actually practice architecture is, you
know, you go through that iterative sort of process.
So it's a good skill to learn early on I suppose.
(08:29):
Yeah, I think so, yeah. I mean, I can imagine if I was
intensely annoying for my fellows students because I had
it all kind of sorted out. I did keep myself to myself as
well. I think actually my only regret
really, I don't think I had enough fun.
I think I should have had a bit more fun.
But anyway, you know. So you join Grimshaw in 1996.
Yeah. You've been there for 29 ish?
(08:50):
Yeah, in my I'm in my 30th year,Yeah.
You're in your 30th year. What is it about?
I mean, obviously you could ask hundreds of questions, but what
is it about, Grimshaw? That's kind of the ethos of the
practice that's made you stay within that practice for the
majority, if not all of your. Career it's a great question and
(09:11):
it's not something I ever reflect on particularly.
So I Grimshaws are my favorite architects when I was a student
and I really wanted to work there and when I I didn't know
this when I, when I when I got there, you know, because, you
know, you think these things areall top down and I know some
(09:31):
practices are still like that, but with Nick, he was always
very, you know, throw your ideason the table, fight for them.
You know, you know, the most junior person could come up with
the best idea. They just might not know what to
do with do with it. He always used to he always
says, you know, you know, I don't mind putting it down and
having an argument. It's an argument amongst friends
and, and I forget, I forget who said that, but it's he then
(09:54):
would say, you know, but you know, I am going to win a lot of
the arguments because I've been,I've been arguing longer than
you have. But I always found there was a
great equality in all of our discussions that you could, you
could, you could sit with him. And actually, Nick wasn't
involved in, in, in everything either.
It was, you know, different partners doing things.
And I was always given a great, great chance by by Andrew Wally.
(10:15):
He's now the chairman who was anassociate at the time.
But they used to give you great,it was great opportunities.
They would always give you the opportunity.
They would always kind of back you.
So I think that's really, it waskind of why I stayed.
And then upholding that legacy is being part of what what I'm
doing now is to make sure that younger architects get those
chances. They get chances to, you know,
(10:38):
come up with ideas. We're very big on origination in
the projects and trying to move up the chain and not just kind
of waiting at the letterbox for a tender invitation, actually go
and chase and generate our own projects now.
So, so we try and get those thatare good at good at that, you
(10:58):
know, in the position where where they can use those skills.
Because actually, I think what defines, say a partner or an
owner is the ability to win work.
And that can be through competition, through
relationship, through, through whatever, but I think that's the
differentiator. So, so, yeah, it's, it's really
been, I think it's, it's the quality of it.
And it's always been a really fun place.
I've always really enjoyed it. It's always a lot of great
(11:19):
people. And I think that is really
because I, I think people feel they've got an, they've got the
opportunity to, to kind of speakup.
They're not just in some sort ofmonastic tutelage where they're
sort of going around waiting for, you know, or whoever the,
you know, the the the big pen tokind of float in and kind of,
you know, pass down these kind of ideas admissives, which is,
you know, she's just nonsense. Architecture is not created that
(11:41):
way. So I think that's what makes us
different. I think that I mean, that leads
on to another question I was thinking about with obviously
you previously being a managing partner of the London office and
doing, doing my research, the the sort of voting system of the
partnering and how you became sort of global head partners
sort of thing. And it it does sort of come
(12:03):
across as quite a open, you know, the idea that a Part 1 can
walk in and have an understanding of how they may
end up in that sort of, you know, more senior position and
having that sort of, you know, the clarity and the sort of no
glass ceiling type attitude. Is that something you kind of
imbue with within the practice? Yeah, you, I mean, you've got to
live it. I mean, I've, I'm in, I think
(12:23):
one of the big changes we made and it was a number of years ago
now it'd be 10 or 15 years ago. Was that roles like the managing
partner or the group managing partner?
Our roles like, and, and if and if you move someone, an
architect into a, into a business role only, what do they
do after that? They've got nowhere to go.
So what, what we've, what we said was no, you're an
(12:45):
architect, but you're a role. So I've still got projects, I'm
doing a lot of West metro projects and some Sydney airport
and other, other, other things. And we actually won a really big
competition for new Gatti station in Budapest, which have
probably got cancelled because of the war.
But but you know, we were doing,you know, I'm still doing those
things. But it's a role and it's, and
it's we, we do it on a kind of like the presidential thing.
(13:07):
It's three-year term. You can never do more than two
terms. And I, I just think it, it, it
sort of keeps it fresh. You know that, you know, it's
not, you know, you, you've been asked by your fellow partners,
your fellow owners to take on the responsibility.
You take on the responsibility and then you hand it to someone
else afterwards. And certainly when I was a
London managing partner, I then handed on to Kirsten these and
(13:29):
supported her into the, into therole.
But then I went back to projectsand, and it's actually you don't
lose. I also think you don't lose
connection with the market. So if you're making business
decisions, you're still connected to the market.
You're still connected to winning projects and resourcing
and, and all, all that, all thatstuff.
You're not kind of, you know, hovering somewhere above it
because so I think you, you've got up that connection.
(13:51):
So I think it's a real, it's a real benefit for us, I think.
It's a fascinating approach because it's, it's something
that, I mean, I've experienced in my own career.
You know, you, you being promoted to a certain position,
you know, you're trained to be an architect and then someone
says, you know, you now manage this many people or you're an
associate or an associate partner or whatever.
You know, you, you don't necessarily get that training in
(14:11):
the same way. Oh, you've got no training?
Yeah, I think there's also, theycould be the Peter Principle,
you know, they, you could be promoted into incompetence, you
know, so, so, so it's kind of you've got, so I think it's you
don't know whether someone's going to be good at good at it.
But the other thing that I always thought was that at some
point in the future, you're going to be sitting around the
table and most of the people will have held that role at some
(14:32):
point. So they will all have a great
understanding of the responsibility that comes with
it because, you know, there's, there's, you know, there's
elements of it that aren't particularly, you know,
glamorous. But I'm AI think I'm a naturally
decisive person. So I found it quite, quite easy.
A lot of architects, I think sometimes shy away from those
(14:53):
things and, and those decisions.But, but I've learnt in
business, making a decision is the most important thing, even
if it's the wrong decision, as long as you've got the humility
to, you know, if it turns out tobe the wrong to, to change your
mind, then you can change your mind.
There's no rules, rules against it.
You don't lose face and all thatstuff.
So, yeah, I think it's good, butI do think it's the strength of
the business. So you, you starting 2930 odd
(15:18):
years ago now as group managing partner, What is what is that
group managing partner role and how does that sort of work with,
I suppose with Grimshaw being a such a global practice now, you
know, offices in eight offices in different locations across
the world, you being based as Sydney, previously being in
London, How does that sort of physically come together, you
(15:39):
know, your role and also the sort of autonomy of those
different offices? And well, I think if you talk
about the offices, I think we we've got a unique approach to
it. All the other practices that I
know are versions of FIFO that fly in, fly out.
You know, they've got a headquarter model.
Some of them have one or two people or three or four people.
(16:01):
We've got this because there's quite a few in Sydney, the
British practices, Mccaslin, butthere are tiny outfits.
We have a much more meaningful connection with the city.
So we've got 65 people in Sydney, there's about 50 all in
Melbourne That, that, that, thatproper local studios who are
connected to the market. You know, our fees are, are
pegged to the local market. You know, there's not, they're
not the international Ness comesfor free effectively.
(16:24):
You know, if you want to know about how we're building metros
or aviation or lessons learned from things abroad, then we can
bring that. But if you don't, we don't.
So, so, so I think it is a really a unique offer, you know,
you know, because each of the studios are really connected to
the city and the local market. So that's great In, in, in my
(16:46):
job, it's just, it's a lot of conversations.
So, so, so my role is I'm responsible for chairing the,
the, the, the board, the global board, which we've just changed
to have regional representatives.
So I'm also the regional managing partner for Australia
as well as a group managing partner just to keep the numbers
down. And we've got North America,
Europe and then Middle East, which is a kind of, we look on
(17:08):
it as an opportunity region. So we've got 20 people there who
are working away and do do some of the work.
But generally they're, they're, they're, they're, they're
basically helping the other studios run projects into there.
So, so it's, it's kind of they're, they're passed out.
Not very many get passed to Australia.
A lot more get passed to the UK or, or Europe and, and North
(17:31):
America just because of, you know, sort of time differences
and things like that. But, but for me, it's, it's just
a structured set of meetings that I meet, you know, I meet
the chairman once a week. We have a, a global board every
other week. It's always early morning for
me. It's late for UK.
So UK get a kind of, they get a bump steer, but I prefer to do
things in, in the, in the morning.
It's always good for America. It's in the middle of the day
(17:52):
and, and it's, it's really, it'sgoing through the financials and
making, you know, strategic decisions about, about that.
I've got a separate meeting thatdoes all the operational
departments. So we, you know, IT marketing
does the sustainability, there'sall sorts of, you know, behind
the scenes stuff, really important things and and they're
really important members of our company who are non
architectural, who need to be looked after and and have got
(18:13):
some good ideas about operational side.
And then, you know, we then try and put strategies together for,
you know, five year business plans and all that sort of
stuff. But so that really gets done in,
you know, in the mornings and then I do Sydney stuff, you
know, during the day, you know, run projects, design reviews,
just normal architectural stuff.I'm supposed to be 5050, but I
(18:37):
always think it's like 200%. I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm doing
2 jobs. But it it seems to work fine and
no complaints from the partners yet.
I'm just, yeah, I think that's the thing.
I'm just thinking in my head, you must have to have a lot of
sort of rigour in, you know, determining time split between
those things and not letting oneeat the other sort of thing.
Yeah, you've, well, I'm very good at partitioning stuff.
(19:02):
But, but, but also it's, you know, there's, there are some
tasks which, you know, they, they would expand to fit the
time available. So you've got to be quite
disciplined. So it's, that's why I think I've
become very, it's not quick decisions because that implies
this. They're not, they're not
thoughtful, but, you know, doingthe, doing the necessary
(19:25):
consultation with partners and, and, and the chairman and other
people and they're making, making a very clear, clear
decision and communicating that clearly and moving on to the
next one because there's always another one and not, not wasting
time. Procrastination is the enemy and
all of that. So I, I, I, I don't know whether
(19:45):
it's my Yorkshireness or so I'm predisposed to, you know, make a
very, very sort of quick decision and on to the next one.
And in, in, in that time period,you know, I keep mentioning the
29 years, but in that time period, did you ever sort of see
yourself in this position? You know, is it a natural?
(20:06):
I mean, maybe it probably didn'texist that that when you when
you started, but you know, is ita natural progression?
For you know you to make something and then you've seen
your career build to this position and fill into those
natural skills that you have or is something that you've kind of
gone for and kind of built upon as you go it's.
A great question. I no, it wasn't.
(20:28):
It wasn't ambition at all. I mean, I thought, I thought I
could become a director at the company.
I think I'm naturally ambitious.My partners will scoff by me
saying that when I first joined,but I did genuinely think that,
you know, you've got to back yourself.
I was confident about that and confident about having ideas
and, and I always thought I was good with people.
(20:48):
So I could, you know, be good with clients and therefore win
work, which is a differentiator,differentiator.
So I was really, I really thought that, but in terms of
being able to do this job, it was kind of, well, firstly, I
think you're asked to do it likeyou, you fellow partners show
your, the faith in you. But by asking you, I don't think
it's, I think it's something a bit grubby about you trying to
(21:09):
become it. I don't think it should be an
ambition. It should be.
It's a, it's a trust and the waywe've got, we've arranged it is
that it's a kind of, it's a roleyou're given and then you then
you walk away from it. So there's, so there's not, you
know, the reward is making sure the business is, is, makes the
right decisions. At that time, I progressively
thought I could do it. You know, as I, you know, I was
(21:31):
lucky enough to do some big projects and as I managed bigger
teams, it's not such a big step from managing big teams to
managing a studio. You know, you kind of you, you
understand the, the, the, those things I'd actually was, I was
my A levels was pretty good at economics.
I think I always had a reasonable business mind and
business is actually really is, is easy.
(21:52):
It's just, you know, revenue andcost really.
So, so if you I've got very overly simplistic kind of
thought about it. And so, so, so I didn't think, I
didn't think about it wasn't ambition, but latterly it was.
And the chairman asked me to do this particular role.
And it was just at the time thatLindsay and I were thinking
about moving to Australia. So, you know, I'm, I'm A1
(22:13):
contingent on the other. Just just just based on that,
you know, moving to Australia atthis point in your career and
obviously, you know, Grimshire already had a presence in
Australia. If you're too kind of to, to sit
into, how is that process from, you know, working for a long
period of your career in London,you know, leading the London
office? Did you have much contact with
(22:36):
Australia beforehand? And how have you sort of then
sort of, you know, made a presence and reputation and, you
know, gained contacts and thingslike that in, in a very sort of
different world? And I suppose is it, is it
different? Is it, is it more of the same?
And and what are those kind of, you know, do do they make
architecture slightly different there?
Yeah, there's a lot of lot of questions in there.
(22:57):
I, you may have to remind me of some, but I, in terms of moving,
I just got to the end of being in London, to be honest.
I, I, I, we'd just been nominated for the Sterling prize
with London Bridge, which I, I thought, I thought we should
have won. I still think we should have
won. But you know, Zeitgeist and you
(23:18):
know, Bloomberg won the year before.
So the giant project in Lip Centre London was never going to
win again. So there's a kind of, there's an
end there. And I just wanted a different
challenge. I wanted to work in a smaller
studio actually, and have, have,have, you know, I remember, you
know, there were 30 people in the entire company when I
joined. And I, I wanted to, to sort of
(23:41):
feel that again, my connection with Australia goes back to the
very beginning. I mean, I, I, I did the bid with
Keith Brewis and, and the designwork on Southern Cross station,
which, which set up our office in, in Melbourne and started our
presence in Australia. And I'd, I'd more or less been
back every year since to, to, toeither for work or just to visit
(24:02):
because I like to visit. A lot of my friends had
transferred from our office there and I liked Australia.
So it may be in a way there was always going to happen.
And then, but it was actually, it was Lindsay's choice.
Lindsay wanted to move and, and I was up for a move.
I thought to myself, I'm actually going to go to America
(24:23):
the way that I'd kind of had it my mind before I met Lindsay.
And then and then she then, thenthis, this kind of came out.
And then it was like I say, it was just exactly the same time
the chairman, they were looking at Vincent Chang, who was the
old group managing partner with stepping down.
He got to the end of his term sothat they, they wanted me to do
it. And there was a, an established
(24:43):
business there. And our business there does a
lot of metro and rail and aviation, which is the three
things that I've, I've got more skill in, I guess, or I've more
experienced in. So I just, I could, I could, I
could slot in there. There's a lot of Brits there.
There's a lot of, you know, engineering firms and people
that I know. So, so it wasn't entirely new.
(25:05):
It is different. It is different.
It's your connection to market is a bit like it was at the
start at Grimshaw. There's a bit more of a closer,
closer connection in, in, in, inLondon.
It's become, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of
veil which is of the tendering and, and other, other, other,
other process. You, you you're very because a
(25:27):
fairness or something, you're kind of, you can't touch it.
You, you you're separate from itand it's quite difficult.
It's also very regimented. It's it's, you know, gone are
the days where, you know, I haven't done a school, but I can
I illustrate, you know, I can. I moved attendant to a school
because I go, well, what are thelast five skills have you done?
You know, what is the last five?You know, so you can't you so
young practices can't break intothat sort of stuff.
(25:48):
So it's impossible. Yeah.
Especially what we do transport.So actually we do partner with
younger practices and I think HS2 and others have been quite
good at, at pushing that. And I think it's a good idea.
But anyway, well, you're separate from it.
Whereas in Australia and Sydney,you, you're close to it.
You know, you can go meet clients, you can come actually
meet ministers, you can go meet,you know, they'll come to your
(26:09):
office and chat to you. And, and, and I, I think that's
a, it's, it's actually a much better way because you
understand clients better. So, so I think, and I think I've
managed to establish, I've been there nearly five years,
established some good, good, good connections.
I was been supported into it by my fellow partner there,
Michael, who, who's, who's been there for been with us for like
(26:30):
10 odd years and he's he's very connected to the, the developer
market. All the studios have got their
own site character and their ownthings that they do.
We're probably much more connected in Sydney to developer
clients and workplace Rezi thosekind of developments than we are
anywhere else in the world. We, we, we probably don't have
(26:52):
hardly any of that in in London,but we have lots of that in
Sydney. So each place has its own
connection to market because themarkets are different.
And does that, I mean with the studios being able to go, you
know, take advantage of those different connections in, in
different locations, it, it kindof it morphs your strategy in
different locations and you, yougo with those opportunities, I
(27:14):
suppose. Yeah, it is different.
It is different in different places.
But we also get kind of larger what we call significant bids.
And those significant bids have to go up to the board to get
agreement for, you know, say, involve more than one studio or
they, they, some of the fees aregoing to be more than sort of
30% of fees in any one year or, or it's going to be, you know,
(27:38):
extra of people are going to work on it.
So we could kind of kind of strategize that or it's going to
cost a lot. It's usually aviation or, or, or
metro projects. But yeah, you can kind of go for
anything you want. And the, the thing for me, it's
been great is I'm now, you know,I'm bidding in high school, I'm
bidding. We got some residential staff,
(27:58):
you know, we've got a lot of industrial.
So I've been able to do lots of things that I, you know, I was
put in my box here, I was firmlyin the, in the rail kind of
aviation box. And, and you could, and also you
have the partners who are doing other things who, you know,
they've got their connection. So there was no, it was very
difficult for me to have a diverse influence on projects.
(28:19):
So by moving, you know, I felt that I, I could.
Yeah, I think that's positive interms of, I mean, obviously
young people are coming into theprofession and particularly
coming into sectors like rail and aviation and things like
that. You know, these are monster
projects that take a long time, you know, just the competitions
to take it forward and and things like that, you know, they
(28:40):
could be a a large portion of your career.
How do you kind of encourage people to, you know, stay
passionate about those projects for that period of time?
And I think something that I've experienced and lots of young
people that I speak to is like, you know, the actual process of
architecture is quite slow. You know, you will put a lot of
time and effort into something and a lot of times it will pause
(29:01):
or it will take a long time justto, you know, move forward sort
of thing. And particularly with, you know,
like I say those those sectors being of such scale.
Yeah, I mean, architecture is a slow, slow profession.
So I think that people's expectations should be
calibrated correctly. It does take a long time.
I think big projects like that, I was, we had Neil Mcclements,
who's we won the Sterling for the Elizabeth line and he was
(29:24):
giving a keynote in Sydney last week and he gave, he then gave
that again to our office and it and he was, it's 13 years on
that project. I actually, I think I did the
bid with him. He wasn't even a partner, I
don't think when we started thatproject, but there've been lots
of people on that job and some of them are now in Sydney.
And I would, I would, I think to, to young people, it's always
(29:44):
in stages, the design bits in stages, the developments in
stages. I on London Bridge, we had AI
thought we had a good, good strategy.
There was myself, there was a principal, there was an
associate principal on it. And we, we kind of strategized,
we said, right, I'll run the project now when it goes into
site, the principal runs it and then you'll run it for a year
and a bit. And then you'll hand out, you'll
(30:05):
come back to the office and you'll hand it over to this
person. And so we had a strategy kind of
laid out over the life of the project on site and, and people
sort of cycled in and cycled outand out out of it.
And I think that project leadersand sometimes are reluctant to
do that because they're like, you know, oh, they hold all the
knowledge. It's like if they don't, you
know, and knowledge can be passed on being a professionals
(30:26):
can pick things up. Guess you can't, you can't hand
over the relationships, I guess,but you, you can plan for it.
And I think it just takes you'vejust got to be active in it.
It's I think some leaders are just lazy.
Keep it as it is. And I think people can stagnate
or that they can get bored and they want to find a new
challenge. It's, it's up to us to recognise
(30:48):
the abilities in people and thenplace them in the right place.
Because as, as you'll know, whenyou're, when you're, you're
designing a project and buildinga project, there are different
skills and actually being a generalist, you know, being able
to design, you know, do the commercials, manage on site
details. It's, it's actually fairly rare,
(31:09):
you know, I think to find, to find generalists.
We've got, we've got quite a fewin our usually partners tend to
be generalists, but there are other people are in, in, in, in
the, in the business. So you do need to have to have
all of those skills and experience of, of all of that.
So I think, I think breaking it,sorry, a long answer to your
question is break it down, make it fun and interesting, you
(31:32):
know, and, and it's, and it's, it's kind of important, you
know, for me, I, I'm able to go around these, these public
buildings that we do and get great joy from walking around
Paddington or going to the London London Bridge and think
that, you know, I've had a hand handle in this.
It's not alongside lots of otherpeople.
I'm not saying I did this. I've contributed to, to the
(31:53):
Crimshaw team who did it. And, and there's a great sense
of pride with that. And yeah, it's eight years of
your life on nearly 10. But you know, like I say, we're
cycling people in and out. And, and so I think, I think, I
think that's, that's how you do it.
But if you want to change cities, you've got to be in it
for the long haul. So you, you just, you've got to
understand that. But I imagine it is quite
(32:14):
daunting if you're, if you're younger and looking at it.
But it's it's something to be embraced, not run away from.
Just with those, you know, you mentioned London Bridge, which
was up for the Sterling and thenthe Elizabeth Lyon which won it.
What is the impact of, you know,an office?
Well, particularly, I suppose a sector, you know, there was,
(32:36):
there was a lot of sort of applaud to the Elizabeth's line
for, you know, a sector like rail, you know, being, being up
there with the sterling and winning it and things like that.
And what is the impact of that on, I suppose on an office
generally, you know, the, the, the, the power of, you know,
such a sort of prestigious award.
(32:56):
I think it was very well deserved.
I think it's a real, it's a complete work, you know, from
the industrial design, Everything is it's, it's a
fantastic project and well deserved.
For us. It was, it was nice for Nick
because Nick had, you know, he'dnot, he'd had the disappointment
of, of Eden and then, you know, we'd had the disappointment of
(33:18):
Bill Murran, we'd had the disappointment of London Bridge.
So it was nice to win it finally.
So everyone felt a kind of, there was a collective glow
around the world and we will raise glasses.
So, so that's, that's great. How much is going to affect our,
our business? I mean, again, to be
controversial, I don't think it's going to affect it at all.
It's like, you know, we've won, you know, we've won a prize for
(33:40):
Metro and it's like everyone knows we can do metro.
So it's not like, you know, I think we're one of the best in
the world at doing any transportation scheme, but I
think that is known anyway. So it's a kind of affirmation.
I don't think it's going to change.
I don't think it'll change our business.
That's my view. But it's great.
It's great. And, and you know why you win,
it's zeitgeist. It's not, it's not, I don't
(34:04):
think the best building wins. I think that, you know, because
the Eden Project didn't win. The Eden Project was by far and
away the best build building that year.
It was, you know, politics and, and, and, and whatever's been
talked about at that particular time, it, it was the jurors.
So, you know, and that's not Sarah Grates by the way, that's
just, that's them's the facts. I don't, because also, I think
(34:25):
it's really difficult for the jury to, you know, reconcile,
you know, some back-to-back housing in East Anglia with a
station in central London. I mean, that's how do you do
that super, super hard. So I, I, I think it's difficult.
So, so you know, I remember Neilwas, he was about to go through
this process and of course, I'd gone through the process a few
(34:47):
years earlier and he's like, oh,we've got any advice?
You know, what, what, what can we do?
And I just said, just enjoy it. And it doesn't matter whether we
win or lose, who, who like, who cares, really, just enjoy it
because it's nice. You're in the limelight.
You get to see our project becomes talked about.
It's fantastic. Whether you win or lose or not.
It's, you know, it's who know, Imean it like it's just, it's
(35:07):
not, it's not, it's hard, it's hard to calibrate or judge
across all of these varied, varied projects.
And it's just, it depends on it depends on the, the juror.
And sometimes the juries are good and sometimes you, you
think, how on earth have these people got, got on a jury?
So, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not that bothered.
(35:27):
And he, I think he took great solace in that.
I just kind of enjoyed it as I did.
I mean, I just, you know, I'd, I'd write or laugh doing it.
I thought it was really funny and I had some good, good
things. My, my, my best memory from that
whole thing was we're in Sheffield.
They do like a thing up in the North and you can give a
presentation and they, you know,did we did all, we all presented
(35:49):
and they then went, they, they did that.
Who do you think's going to win?You know, you know, like a
difficult question. And so of course everybody went,
oh, well, you know, they're all very good.
They're all worthy winners. You know, there's fantastic
projects here. We're just really went along the
line. It got to me and I said, oh, I
think Annalise is going to win. And they went, what, what, what
(36:10):
do you mean? And I was like, well, you know,
that we want to do regional housings on the agenda that,
that, that the president of the of the RBA is currently runs a
housing practice. It's like, guys, you know, we've
got, you know, this thing about gender equality.
And Alex is a strong leader of that.
But, you know, ticks all the boxes that he's going to win.
And so they're all sort of, you know, I thought it was great for
(36:33):
her. It was very mischievous of me.
And well as you probably know I put a bet on her to win and and
and my only regret was I only put 10 lbs and not 1000 lbs on
it. 11 to 1. Brilliant.
And and it's great and it's a great scheme.
It's a lovely scale. I don't want anybody to think
that sale goes, it's a great scheme and it's a great, great,
great that they won, fantastic for their for their business.
(36:55):
I think it was transformative, you know, and really elevate
them. And they've gone on to do
brilliant work in Sheffield on on this, the Department of
Housing and all that Fantastic. But you know that that whole
process is just, you know, who knows, of course.
One thing I wanted to talk to you about was your passion for
film. So I know that you did an MA in
film earlier in your career. And I know looking at the
(37:18):
website, Grimshaw have sort of gone fully into creating, you
know, films about your work. And I know the film that you're
involved in sort of celebrating Nick's life career.
How I suppose how important to you is it having a passion, you
know, like that, that kind of sits outside, if not alongside
(37:38):
architecture? And I suppose what a joy it is
to try and you know, have that to to bring into your career
with your practice now. Yeah, I love the film.
Is is always been really important to me.
My mum used to take me down the ABC cinema.
I was like obviously a bit of a nightmare.
Charles, he used to drop me off on a Saturday while she was
doing a shopping and the ABC cangive me some money.
(38:00):
I used to go and see the Children's Film Foundation films
and they'd they'd do it like there's AB feature.
I used to just sitting there, you know, literally I was the
kid, you know, kind of wide eyedwatching, watching films.
I'd watch, I'd watch. I still to this day, I'd watch
anything. And what what why I got the MA
was because I was London managing partner at the time and
I felt like my brain was turningto mush and I I just wanted to
(38:22):
become I wanted to become a better writer.
I just wanted to try and, you know, just have some structured
learning. And the other thing was as well,
I wanted to walk into a room where I wasn't expected to talk
first, because when you're a London managing partner,
everyone sits down and they lookat you and go and you go, right,
OK, today's the gender is blah, blah.
So I just wanted to be able to sit at the back of the room and
have someone else talk to me. And the structure of my learning
(38:45):
because I was, you know, I was really interested in Korean
film, which has become very, very popular and big with, you
know, Parasite and all that. So, so, but, but I loved that
and I loved the, the, the, the language of film and I love
everything about it, from the gossip to everything.
So when and I think it's a really effective way of getting
complicated stories across. I think film generally has gone
(39:05):
a bit weird recently because of digital and improv and you know,
films are two and three hours long.
I thought they're rubbish. Like brutalist is just not a
good film and should never have won the Oscar.
But but the they I love that storytelling.
I love the kind of the, the ability to do something, get so
(39:26):
much information across either through visuals and, or, or
speech. And so we, well, what happened
was I decided to make 2 films. So I made a film at Pork of Hope
and a film in reading. And I, I was, you know, key
grip, best boy, you know, I did all the other thing and the
music, we did everything. And it's a bit shonky, but I,
(39:48):
but I kind of did it and to showNick and I said, Nick, you know,
this is how we should to get thestories, some of the stories
about our, our, our projects out.
(40:12):
Hi, it's November 2012 and we'rehere in Saint Petersburg at the
new Pocovo International Airport.
This is a project we won in 2007for a new combined domestic and
international terminal designed for 17,000,000 passengers a
year. The building's been constructed
behind me. This is the first phase of the
project for 12 million passengers a year and should be
finished in December 2013. And we could become a leader and
(40:34):
we've done 40 or 50 films now and we we have a two or
three-year. We've still got a program.
I'm still producer, not in that I produce them, but I'm the kind
of producer and I think they're really, really valuable.
The, the issue we have is that, you know, the architects get in
there, the project leaders don'twant to tell the whole story.
And it's like, you know, you should only be telling part,
part of the story or the bit that's most interesting and
(40:56):
important. And so, you know, you know, the,
the edits kind of go out to 6-7 minutes.
Nobody cares. You know it's going to be 2 1/2
three minutes. It's like 2 1/2 hour films don't
interest me. 90 minute films interest me because it's, you
know, you, there's obviously discipline gone into it.
So I, I think it's a really great thing that we do, we're
continuing to do it that there'san archival legacy aspect as
(41:19):
well, because we can get people who've been been in the done the
project. Some of them are still with us,
some of them are not. It's good for we've gone back
through some of the older projects to do those as well and
revisit them. So I think it's a great
resource. I don't think we've ever made
enough of it on our socials And and I think we've been typically
kind of Grimshaw and I've had all hell sort of hidden our
(41:41):
light under the bushel about that.
But but I think we we'll continue to make them.
We're just thinking about the ones we're going to make in the
future and we want to do the Parramatta pool and a couple of
other projects might in place. So we're we're we're thinking
about the ones in in in future. But but I, I really like we've
got a film maker, Ned Williams, who, who does, who's done a lot
(42:01):
of, you know, the majority of them.
And I've got a great relationship with Ned because
it's, you know, I as a producer,I just I, I, I don't go, you
know, time carried, you know, 1212 sort of take this out.
You know, I'm like a lot of architects do.
I'm just trying to take over. I sort of say, well, it's a bit
too long. You know, I don't like the
(42:21):
beginning. You know, I think we should
start like this and just give some general and then he's the
film makers. He's he's then he's then going
to do it. So I think, I think it's been
been great for us, But I, you know, for me personally, it's
really important to have something else.
It is kind of with architecture adjacent and it's helped even
with our Cgis now and our animations.
(42:44):
I've been encouraging them to use Dolly shots and to use, you
know, other things. Appreciation of that.
Because we've all got filmic language I don't think we
understand. We've watched so much visual
media that we've been schooled in it.
So this kind of GoPro walking around a building nonsense,
which, you know, like some sort of video game.
(43:04):
It's like nobody wants to experience.
You're selling a building because that's what we're doing.
We're selling an idea or an experience or a feeling.
Then then you can use that filmic language.
So I think it's super important to me and I do take little shots
and notes and, and, and, and things with, with films and
think, Oh, I'll be really good for that project or this
(43:26):
project. And so I think it's been, I
think it's been a good, real, real benefit to us.
And I really did enjoy doing thesome kind of joy, which is the,
which is the film kind of reallyabout Nick, which I, I, I did
enjoy putting that together. We had a film maker do it, but I
enjoyed being involved in that. That was tremendous.
And we had a proper premiere at the at a cinema just by
(43:51):
Piccadilly Circus. It's fantastic.
It was really quite anarchy. This is indeed the age of
change. It's a whole new way of
thinking, cross between mechanical engineering,
sculpture and rocket science. It was almost a fetish of
(44:12):
beautiful, gleaming industrial objects.
A building like this next to Regions Park over my dead body,
he said. I think there's a really nice
parallel that I've I've sort of like been been listening to with
your sort of idea around sort ofsuccinct communication.
And like you just, you know, sort of mentioned about the
three hour film versus the 90 minute discipline movie.
(44:34):
And you know what you were saying earlier about in your
sort of leadership style of thatsuccinct communication and
things. How and I think it's I suppose
it's the thing that architects struggle with is, is, you know,
determined choice communication.You know, you speak to any young
architect and they'll tell you 100 problems without, you know,
sort of giving you the solution sort of thing.
(44:56):
How important do you think having that sort of clear
communication is and has been inyour career?
But I think it's, I do think it's incredibly important and I
think that if you take a step back, fundamentally what
architects do is they take complicated things and they make
them simple is what they do. They take a bunch of effects
(45:18):
parameters, things and make it simple and then communicate
that, you know, simply or, or, or you should be communicating
that simply. Sorry.
What they then do is they wrap it in Archie, what I call Archie
bollocks. They just talk in this kind of
weird language that only architects do, in this self
aggrandisement and pomposity andpretentiousness.
(45:38):
And it just, it turns me cold and, and I think, you know, why
can't we carry on speaking very,very clearly about it?
Because surely we'd have much more effective communication
with the, the users who don't use architectural language with,
with, with, with clients, developers, engineers,
collaborators like that, who would then respect us a bit
(45:59):
more. I think we, I think we harm
ourselves. But I think in terms of the
communication, I think also the problem architects have is they,
they want to show how clever they are.
You know, they've, it's a difficult job.
I've managed to balance all these conflicting things and now
I'm going to show you how to do it.
But it was like, you know, it's like a magician telling you how
(46:19):
he's done the trick straight after he's done the trick.
I always think it's like, you know, just just leave it as it
is. The simple communication, you
know, the buildings about this and leave it at that.
But they always seem to want to write like a 5000 word essay
about it. Pointless.
I think that is a wonderful thing about when you
particularly think about Grimshaw and the types of
projects that you do, particularly the public ones,
(46:41):
you know, the different people moving through those spaces, you
know, the hundreds of thousands,you know, millions of people
walk, you know, going through those large projects all
interpreting it in their own, you know, sort of way and stuff.
It is, you know, the kind of power of architecture of that
sort of thing. It is experienced by so many
people, I suppose. Yeah.
And and that's, you know, it's the reason why we did that film
(47:02):
and it was called some kind of joy because it's Nick's phrase.
He said, you know, we want people to use it and for it to
be easy to use. And but it also we want to give
them some kind of joy when when they're when they're going
through it. And I think that it, some of the
small choices we make, be it theLondon Bridge, you've got the
timber and there's just that little, there's that kind of
humanizing element and the warmness and you know, something
(47:24):
that's maybe a little bit unusual in spaces like that
because it can be quite cavernous and maybe a bit bit
hostile or Fulton Centre with the light coming down at that
particular part. It's what's kind of dark and
small. That's a way.
So to go in there. It's just this generous, large
light filled space. It's, it's, it's quite unusual.
And people can enjoy that on theon their daily commute.
(47:44):
It might just give them a, a bitof a smile.
So I really, I think it's those moments that, that, that, that
we, that we all work for. You know, I used the, I came in
on the Elizabeth line from Heathrow on Friday when I was
travelling in and, you know, it brought a smile to my face.
It was just, you know, kind of easy, joyous kind of experience.
(48:05):
And, and I know what's happened behind the The Wizard of Oz
curtain. I know what's happened, but it
just put simply, it just felt kind of luxuriant.
It felt sort of spacious and just really beautifully done.
And I was really proud of what we've done and the fact that our
business can do it, cuz I think only we can do things like that.
(48:28):
That's what I think, anyway. Perfect.
Just to wrap up your career, obviously, you know, with
Grimshaw stuff. You're wrapping up my career.
Yeah, we're wrapping, it's done.Sorry, it's over in, in terms
of, you know, reflecting and, and it's something you, I always
kind of ask the guests and obviously you don't normally
spend much time sort of navel gazing and reflecting on your
(48:48):
own career. And it's only these kind of
opportunities that allow it. What do you think people could
take away from, you know, our conversation and your career
that you've kind of, you know, the some of the key things for
probably young people coming into the profession?
You know, what are those kind ofkey skills or key stories you
can think of? Well, I think I was determined
(49:11):
to become an architect. I thought it matched my skills.
I wanted to work for Grimshaw. So I set out a plan in terms of
the, the work that I got. So my CV was built in the right
way. I had a really good work ethic.
So, you know, my, my dad always used to say, you know, let no
(49:33):
one outwork you. You know, you can be as clever
as you want, but no one outwork you.
And I'm not advocating long hours, by the way, because I
don't work long hours. I'm AI like to, you know, work
the, the normal hour time and, and, but really work super,
super effectively, but don't letanyone outwork you.
And then I think find something you just you really enjoy doing
(49:56):
and surround yourself with greatpeople.
Align yourself with the great people who are fun and, you
know, share their experiences and, and and and and their
stories. Because I've, I've been super
lucky at Grimshaw with all the people I've I've worked with or
worked for, they've always been super generous with their time
and they've been really, you know, influential.
(50:19):
But I've just, I've really enjoyed it.
I feel, I feel incredibly lucky and I'm looking forward to, you
know, many, many more years of, of, of, of doing projects and,
and completely some amazing spaces around the world.
I've, I haven't actually built anything in Sydney yet.
So that's an ambition. And yeah, I don't know.
(50:40):
It's, I think also be decisive and don't procrastinate.
You know, this, you don't, you don't have to pay a price.
I think, I think there's too much set on, on, on on
decisions. You know, like, I think it
starts at college for, for, for students and, and there's a
pressure to have an idea or the idea when I do design reviews as
(51:03):
an example, like people, you know, they like sit up and do
design reviews for hours. And, and I, I don't do that with
my team. It's 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
OK. And we just, we go, OK, let's
go. Is this where we're going to go?
Then they go away and test it and come back.
So I'd rather have 5-10 minute conversations, 15 minute
conversations as a review than sit around for an hour, you
(51:24):
know, sort of, you know, everyone's speaking and, you
know, self aggrandising, you know.
So I think it's being an architecture is, yeah.
Well, the other thing is I'm notsure architecture is an art.
I I think it's a, it's a sort of, it's a way of operating and
which involves creativity and ideas and, and great thoughts
and some philosophising and, and, and and and, you know,
(51:49):
social values and all, all, all,all of that stuff.
But it's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a method of working.
And you shouldn't think that it's a it's, it's an art because
I don't know many art, much art that you do with, you know, 7080
other people and, and, and otherother, other, other disciplines.
You're reliant upon other disciplines going into them.
So it's a, it's a really different thing.
(52:10):
So I don't know, sorry. Hopefully you can.
They can pick the peanuts from the poo there.
Perfect. So thank you so much for joining
me. And yeah.
Thank you so much. I've enjoyed it.
And yeah, I hope people find it enjoyable.
Thank you, Margaret. Thank you, you know, it's one of
(52:31):
my book bears is bloody. You know, like tutors at
architecture school who just who've just been students.
So what the fuck are you? What do you know like you like
you've just you've come out of auni.
You're. Just creating more of.
You. Yeah, I know exactly.
It's just sort of, it's not whatcan you teach them because
you've not learned anything. And then the people, the people
who should be, I guess, like me,who got too busy.
(52:53):
I can't, I've got, I've got. Oh, you can't.
You can't go do it. Well, I'm, I'm, I am tutoring
people, but they work for me and, you know, you try and give
them opportunities, but I just stuff like that.
Just sort of 1, you know, one, we had some good tutors at
Dundee and older guys and women who were, you know, quite,
quite, quite experienced. But it was, it was a bit more of
a technical school than a sort of crazy, wacky, kind of like
(53:15):
like a sort of Barlow or anything like that.
It was a high tech school as well.
So they, they, they, they eitherdid vernacular or they did high
tech. So, so which suited me down to
the ground. So that's, that's kind of what I
wanted to do. We're quite good on the
challenge and like, you know, strategically, do you, do you
know, what are your higher order?
What you actually, what problem are you actually trying to solve
(53:36):
here? You know, take the practical
exit of it. What are you actually trying to
solve? What do you want to do is OK,
right. And then so, so we quite, we've
become quite skilled in, you know, getting to ask the right,
ask the right questions, you know, to, to, to, you know,
because it's the architecture bit comes later.
I mean, that's the problem with a lot of architects is they come
and they've already got an idea and then they spend all of their
(53:58):
time trying to shove the programinto the, into the, into the
idea that they've had, which waswrong anyway, wrong, wrong from
the start. It's like, you know, it's like
the architecture bit comes so much later.
And, and, and, and surely it should respond to the
parameters. It should respond to the things
you think you're trying to do. But a lot of architects come
with a, you know, preconceived idea, normally fashion by their
(54:23):
own limitations. So I would say there's a thing
you didn't ask. I generally hate architects.
That's my sort of thing. They're all pretentious.
I was getting that. Right.
The the more you look like an architect, the less good you are
in my my my opinion. So it's all black didn't.
You've got to be, you've got a bit.
No, you know, the big people arecoming.
(54:44):
They're kind of they're swan in and they've got the big glasses
and all that stuff that you think you are.
It's literally like a, it's likea middle-aged man by a sports
guy. You know, you're making up for
something then, my friend, you know, like all the best
architects I know are just normal looking people.
So, so there's, there's there's but, but no, there are.
I don't, not all architects. I mean sort of it's there are
(55:06):
goods. You know, the people who work
for us are good. Just, you know, it's architects
just normal. You're not a master of the
universe. You're like, you say you're in
the middle, you're in the middleand your job is to bring
everything together. So, So it's so.
And that's, that's why architects can do it until
they're 80 or 90 years old because it's actually quite, you
know, it's a, it's a collaborative thing.
(55:27):
It's, you know, it's not on yourown shoulders.
The one people I've seen, you know, wear themselves out
there've been those who are justdespots.
Yeah. It's all through me.
Yeah.
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