July 15, 2025 • 52 mins
We spend roughly a third of our adult lives at work. A third. That's about 90,000 hours over the course of a career. And yet, many of us have never stopped to really think about how our physical environment is shaping our mental health, our productivity, and our overall wellbeing every single day.
We're living through the biggest shift in how we work since the Industrial Revolution. Hybrid working, which felt revolutionary just a few years ago, is now the norm.
But as Kirsten will explain, we're still getting it wrong in some fundamental ways. We're still thinking about workplace design as something that gets done to employees, rather than with them.0:00 - Intro1:29 - What is it about people's relationship with their environment?3:03 - Background in landscape architecture5:58 - The step into real estate7:03 - Transferable skills in design9:03 - Herman Miller and the importance of company values14:02 - The missing piece in designing for wellbeing at work 18:03 - The disconnect between designers and users21:12 - What happens when employees help design the workplace strategy23:52 - Are firms keeping health and wellbeing "in a box"?23:48 - How do we appeal to companies that aren't invested in wellbeing?27:10 - Do certifications like WELL and Fitwel actually matter?32:01 - What are the workplace wellness strategies that make a difference?33:19 - The balance/disconnect between health and sustainability36:53 - Latest research on hybrid working41:22 - The link between wellbeing and flexibility44:14 - Career trade-offs and raising a family45:55 - Key lessons from Kirsten's career journey: "Never stop learning!"48:22 - Has your career turned out how you imagined?50:05 - What's next?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Initially, the conversation around hybrid working was trust.
Oh, I need to hit you in the office because I don't trust you
or I feel like that. The conversation has moved to be
much more focused on the value of humans being together.
Doctor Kirsten Brown is an experienced workplace strategy
and well-being consultant with aPhD in Health in the workplace.
(00:20):
She's a thought leader and expert in building health and
resilience in organisations for a more productive workforce.
She currently works as a self-employed consultant, having
been involved in all aspects of workplace consultancy design,
real estate, commerce and research.
We're dealing with humans, everyhumans different.
The work that we do, the way we deal with our managers.
There's no magic formula. What are those things, design
(00:41):
changes or office structural things that that you are finding
or you personally are pushing for as as evidence based?
Well, I think in terms of the evidence the the factors that
really impact people's health isthe air quality and the access
to daylight. Sometimes any career, what makes
you good at it is actually just longevity, like doing it for a
long time. There's a lot of stuff that you
(01:02):
just can't know without experience.
I don't know whether you've everheard that expression that
people say, oh, you should work in an organization that the
values align with your values, just like, oh, what does that
actually mean? But it wasn't until I worked in
a place that the values didn't align with my values that I
understood it very loud and clear.
(01:25):
Gaston, thank you so much for joining me.
It's so good to be here. I usually start by asking our
guests why architecture, but I think given your sort of diverse
career, I think the question is a bit more nuanced, if you would
agree. So I suppose across all of your
roles, the sort of common denominator theme seems to be a
(01:46):
sort of thread about people's relationships with their
environment. What is it about this that kind
of fascinates you? Well, I suppose there's so many
dimensions to it. I, I suppose I started out in
landscape architecture because Ifound that really interesting,
the relationship between how people respond and enjoy more of
(02:09):
an external environment. While I was at school, I was
really interested in natural systems.
I did, you know, biology, biology and geography, geology,
et cetera. And that sort of led me on that
path to understand that the natural environment, you know,
and more of a design sense. So I suppose that's where it
started. And then to build on that in
(02:31):
terms of how people respond to it.
Is that the next area of study Iwanted to understand was
actually from the client perspective, how they see
projects and what is important to them.
So yeah. And then and then later in my
career in that really in depth research part, again, it's how
people, what's important to people, what, how we how we can
(02:55):
actually elevate the experience,whether it's interior or
exterior and really make places and spaces that people thrive
in. Let's talk about the early sort
of experience of, of landscape architecture, like the, the
that's obviously a design background and you later go on
to, you know, go more into sort of research and sales and lots
of different things. But what was it that kind of
(03:17):
initially kind of drew you to tolandscapes in particular?
Well, that's actually quite funny because when I had, you
know, this is a long time ago when when, Well actually there
wasn't even the Internet when I went to uni, when I started,
when I got, and it was a book. It was a book produced by the
university. It was a paragraph with two
sentences in it describing what the degree was about, you know,
(03:40):
amongst all the other degrees. And that's how you chose it.
That was it. I must say I didn't actually
have a full understanding of what I was getting myself into
when I chose this degree. Me from 2 sentences in a in a
book I was sort of quite surprised at while it was all
about natural systems, you know,and the environment and botany
(04:02):
etcetera, etcetera. Obviously design is at the
centre of it and probably designis not my strength, but I, I
stuck at it because I found learning about the design
process, the way you go through the, you know, it's quite a
different way of thinking when you actually step through and
you're trained in terms of how you view the world and how you
(04:25):
take parts of, you know, how yousolve problems.
So I think that's how I, you know, ended up, I started on
that path, you know, and then four years later finished it.
I think the other major part that really ignited my interest
and continued with landscape, I had a opportunity to work to go
(04:47):
to a university in America, to the University of Illinois.
And landscape architecture as a profession was much more highly
regarded and respected and was much more.
It wasn't just sort of somethingon the side that came after
architecture, it was actually integrated into projects.
So yeah, that sort of got me started on the process, but it
(05:09):
was probably more by accident really.
You you. You'd be surprised how many
people that say that. Yeah, but you know, that's life,
isn't it? That exactly.
Yeah, completely. How long How long do you
practice in in landscape architecture before you moved
over to the real estate world? It was probably about a decade.
(05:31):
I by then I had two young children and I suppose I started
to move away from it because I found I just wasn't enjoying it
enough. I found it, you know, very long
hours. I wasn't, you know, wasn't 100%
passionate about it. I was at a point where if I was
going to be away from my children, you know, putting them
(05:51):
in daycare, etcetera, it had to really count.
You know, I had to really want to be loving the work I did.
What was that next step into real estate?
What was it that kind of drew you to that area of of of kind
of the built environment? The reason why I wanted to
undertake that study, more formal study is that I found
often in projects, particularly the way landscape was positioned
(06:14):
in as part of the project. And it's, it's amazing to see
now because you know, the we're so much more focused on the
environment and natural systems is that landscape as a
profession is much more pivotal in projects.
So back then, because it was often it wasn't as valued, I
really wanted to understand whatwere the drivers from the client
(06:36):
end? So what were the key things?
What, what, what did they place value on and and why, why did
they place value on particular parts of projects?
So that's when I started to really become more interested
in, yeah, that end of how, how does the deal stack up?
How does a, how is a project formed?
How and how and why are these the parameters and and the
(07:00):
design? How does the design process fit
into that? Yeah, it's fascinating because I
mean, I've had so many sort of friends and colleagues that get
probably in a similar sort of situation, get to that sort of
point in their career where theywant more of an understanding
like, like, like, like yourself of the bigger picture of, you
know, the, the, the overarching idea around, you know, how
things get built and, and how, Isuppose development it actually
(07:24):
happens. And was that, I mean, was there
much sort of transferable skillsfrom landscaping to that realm?
Or is that quite a sort of freshstart and you were kind of
starting? No, no, no, it's all it's all
useful. I mean, and that's often what
people say, oh, you know, and I even see my children at
university now and oh, it's all wait, you know, I shouldn't have
done that. I shouldn't no, no study or, you
(07:48):
know, learning is wasted. And even now everyday, all of
the, you know, maybe the plant names aren't so relevant in my
daily life, but the process, thethinking, the way you, you, you,
you know, design is all about problem solving, you know, in a,
in a quite a clever way. So I, that even was relevant
(08:11):
when I approached my PhD. And what was super interesting
is my supervisor said, oh, many people that undertake APHD find
it very difficult to, you know, they do some work, they write it
and then they might just have tobeen part, part, you know, big
sections of it because it becomes as you work through the
(08:32):
journey, you know, it's not relevant or some, you know, it
goes in different directions. And that's what design is that,
that design process is that sometimes you head down a path
and you have to go a bit to the left to know that a bit to the
left is the wrong decision or a bit to the right.
That, and it's iterative. You're constantly refining it
and, and, and it is a, it's never a straight pass.
(08:52):
So those, those skills definitely are useful.
And I've still use those you know today.
So from client side, we jump nowinto sort of product side,
product sales, marketing obviously in this sort of
commercial interiors and that's something you've spent quite a
(09:13):
period of time. I know you worked at Herman
Miller for a for a long time. What's that experience like with
a? With a different sort of focus,
I suppose? Look, the reason I, when I was
at that point in my career, I was very specific about where I
chose to work. So I know sometimes it's
difficult when you come to that crossroads about, OK, what do I
(09:36):
want to do? You know, what am I good at?
Where would I like to work? I was really clear.
I actually took it. I actually had created a list of
the companies that I wanted to work for.
So I had previously had a, a stint in a construction company
and I wasn't, you know, I don't know whether you've ever heard
(09:57):
that expression that people say,oh, you should work in an
organization that the values align with your values.
And, and I never really understood what that meant.
It's like, oh, what does that actually mean?
But it wasn't until I worked in a place that the values didn't
align with my values that I understood it very loud and
(10:19):
clear, you know, just a very oldschool construction company that
just, you know, just didn't for a whole bunch of reasons.
Anyway, so that I had a very clear list here of the types of
companies that I would like to work for.
One of them was Herman Miller. The reason being is that
everything they do is it's very design focused.
(10:41):
It's very considered, it's builton evidence.
It's very anything that it that they create.
It's it often, you know, I mean,timeless is probably too strong
a word, but it, it's it all the the way they go about their
processes. I thought, you know, it was a
place that aligned again with myvalues so that there any in
(11:07):
Australia though at that time and still today, there's only
four or 500 million people in Australia.
So they're they're not jobs thatcome around very often.
I so a job came around yeah and I applied for it and and was
successful. So, yeah, super, yeah, super
interesting company and, and what I find fascinating about
(11:31):
that company is that they have managed to capture history and
culture that was built by a few very special individuals that,
you know, Ray and Charles Eames and other people of that era.
It's still embedded into their culture everyday and everything
they design and and that is pretty unique I think.
(11:55):
Sure. I mean it, it sounds like a sort
of glowing review of your experience there.
What was that? Sort of.
Yeah. How many years were you there?
It was more than. 08, yeah, about 8 years. 8-9 years.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
What was your experience sort ofmoving through that company?
Because I I know that there was a sort of sales role, marketing
role and and then into a more sort of an exploratory thing
(12:17):
that probably lead on to your PhD.
Yeah, look what I spoke. There was lots of things, as I
said, Yeah, the companies as itself I was aligned with and
really enjoyed the role itself. I was the only person in Sydney
based in Sydney, so it was very autonomous.
You know, to be completely frank, it also really a lot.
(12:39):
It was really helpful at the period of where I was in my
life. I had two young children.
I needed fully flexible living and working.
And then a lot of flexible jobs just didn't exist.
No, flexible was, oh, did you want to pick your children up
one day a week or something? So the role was fully
(13:00):
autonomous. I'm a motivated and, you know,
hard working person. So I just get on and and do
things And it led me and I builta whole lot of skills around,
you know, working with people, managing the dealers, learning
how products, you know, how things are put together.
And then yes, as you said, I started on the journey of
(13:24):
research there because they, they obviously need do huge
amounts of research for their products.
Yeah. And I teamed up actually before
I started Herman Miller, I remember now they had a
researcher coming to Australia to understand workplace here
because it is tends to be a little bit more forward thinking
(13:44):
than the US market. And they need the, the person
needed an assistant, the the researcher needed an assistant.
And I said, OK, I'll do it. Yeah.
So that was my first sort of bite.
And look at what does research look like in a, you know, from
an industry perspective. What was it that that made you
decide to jump into a PhD? Did it kind of naturally flow
(14:08):
from the work you were doing andand kind of thought felt like a
sort of natural extension of that or was it, I mean, did you
have a burning desire to do it? No, no, it not actually.
What? Again, it's funny how these
things happen. So it was at a stage, I'm not
sure whether you remember, but about 10 years ago, every
(14:28):
headline related to to interiorsand workplace was sitting is the
new smoking. Do do you remember that?
You know that headline sitting isn't.
And it was everywhere. It was everywhere and every
conference you went to and everyone was always talking
about sitting is the new smoking.
We're all gonna die because we sit too much.
I I start, I want, I was really intrigued by that.
I'm quite a curious person. I was like, OK, I want to
(14:49):
actually understand what is behind these headlines that
people is everywhere. And when I started unpicking it
and doing a little bit of research, I found that behind
those headlines were five peoplefor five days, you know, three
people for six days, that the actual size of the experiments
or what was being the data that was pretty, you know, making
(15:11):
these headlines was pretty, pretty, you know, loose.
It wasn't. I don't, I wouldn't have rated
that. Yeah.
So I start, I don't actually even know how.
I then decided, oh, OK, maybe I should, you know, do a little
bit more. So I just started inch by inch,
started doing some research and then we to do a PhD here in
(15:32):
Australia. You, you pretty much pitched to
a university and say, here's my idea, here's what I want to
research. And then you're funded by the
federal government. And so I created A and I ended
up in the faculty of Health, which was on which I chose to do
because I wanted to have a lot of rigour, that sort of health
rigour to the research rather than more design.
(15:54):
And then initially it started off as a, as a more of a
master's in research. And then they're saying, oh,
this topic's way too big and complicated.
You need to do a PHDI was like, oh, do I OK, I'll do 1.
So, so, yeah, again, it wasn't aconscious, OK, I really want to
(16:14):
do this. And this is something that is,
you know, a life idea. It really came about just, you
know, probably the same way as Istarted my bachelor degree.
OK, I'm going to, I'm going to tell everyone what the title of
the PhD is, the relationship between workplace to design and
perceived health status of office workers, a salut genic
(16:36):
perspective. Could you just tell us a little
bit about your findings? Yeah, OK.
So the way I undertook the studyin the end is that I used a case
study of an organization moving from one location to another.
So I had pre and post data and the the post environment was
(16:56):
actually specifically designed with health and well-being in
mind. And what was really interesting
is that while many of the elements existed that you would
what you would expect to see with that focus.
So lots of biophilia, natural light, the access to stairs, all
the things that do count. Is that the bit that was missing
(17:18):
that really the didn't you know it could have been elevated to a
whole new level was the communications piece?
Is that piece it or what is known as health promotion?
So if you create these environments, you really need to
work with people, you know when they move in and then ongoing
(17:39):
in, explain to them why the space has been designed a
certain way and then how to use it.
So when I did different cohorts of, for example, how and why to
use a desk and chair, those thathad that training actually sat
list. So and those that were explained
(17:59):
the importance and the value of taking the stairs a few times a
day, use the stairs more versus those that the stairs were just
there. So that was one of the key
findings is that it's not only important to create these
environments, but you do need tocommunicate the value and
importance of them on an ongoingbasis.
(18:20):
Because what might seem really obvious sometimes is not.
We often need to be as humans need to know the why to to to
see the value in things. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's,
that is the kind of fascinating sort of idea because obviously
as as an architect, we always kind of think that people will
will see what we see, will understand what our intentions
(18:40):
are between the decisions we make.
And I always find it incredibly fascinating how I always will.
I've I've, I've, I've done this anecdote before, but I always
use my wife as an example of howa, how a, a non architect
understands the world around her.
And, and when we, whenever we sit anywhere in a restaurant or
something, the things that I notice versus the things that
she notices sort of thing, and how she experiences the space
(19:03):
versus I, how I experience the space sort of thing.
And it is that thing of when you're a designer, you just kind
of you presume it's implied or it's it's understood, but.
Like you say like. The communication around it
feels, yeah, like that missing piece.
Yeah, I totally agree. And there's so many examples of
that and it and that actually came out loud and clear in my
(19:24):
research. So and you and that sayetogenic
lens is actually focusing on that you you need to have a much
more holistic view of projects and really in order to actually
maximize their full potential. So really looking at all the
factors rather than just the designed environment, all the
(19:44):
other layers that make the environment, you know, most, you
know, most effective in terms ofhealth outcomes.
I think that's the thing, isn't it, when you when you think
about all these conversations and, and I'll come on to the on
the question later about sort of, you know, the different
building standards that talk about, you know, the the, the
qualities, the different office spaces should be.
But I suppose the point is about.
(20:08):
The organization as a whole and probably leading onto what you
said previously about the, the ethos behind Herman Miller, you
know, the organization that sings at all levels through its
ideology. It's it's way of thinking and
through it's sort of architecture and design sort of
thing. It's not one without the other,
I suppose. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You do need, you need all of it to to sing, don't you?
(20:30):
For it to all make sense, particularly to the end user
that sometimes things that exactly that as designers make
sense, just common sense that wejust take for granted.
But yeah, it's not it needs to often be communicated.
And I think, you know, the otherpart that is often forgotten is
that as designers that are focused on creating spaces is
(20:52):
that space can fix, fix the problem, fix the problems.
But you can have the most amazing spaces.
But if the culture is not right or is not positive, then the
space really is, you know, come become secondary.
So yeah, there's obviously otherelements.
So with this with this point in your career, you now have a a
(21:15):
shiny doctorate to move forward with and you're specialising in
workplace design. You then decide to sort of go
out as a sort of consultant and I know originally as an employee
and now is your own, your own body sort of thing.
What does your sort of work looklike in that sort of consultancy
and, and what's your kind of day-to-day process of providing
(21:37):
advice for, I guess organisations and and different
companies looking for a different way of working, I
suppose? Well, at the moment my work
consists a lot of I do tend to do a lot of workshops.
I feel Co designing and engagingpeople in an organization,
whatever the outcome you're trying to achieve is just so
(22:00):
critical to success. Whether you're you know, I often
I might be working with employees to create what they
think is an effective health andwell-being policy or strategy
for their organization, or it could actually be in terms of
workplace strategy. So what is the workplace?
How how do we want it to be? How do we work?
How are we going to work in the future?
(22:21):
Really identifying the key factors, the purpose of the, the
workplace. And you know, there's so much
research and evidence that we all know about that.
If you engage the end users, theemployees, all those that are
going to be actively impacted bythe strategy, the policy, you
have such better outcomes because people again, understand
(22:42):
from the, you know, they have input, so they're invested in
it. They will be more committed to
it. They also understand the why.
So they don't just turn up at day one when something is built
or something is written and they're expected to adopt it or
believe it that they've, if they've been part of it, that
engagement and you just you, youcan see.
(23:02):
And that's actually really rewarding when you see better
outcomes that people. And then in terms of the health
and well-being strategy, is thatoften you in smaller
organisations, they might see health and well-being as
something to the side. Is that OK?
Here's our business. Oh, we know we need to look
after our people. Let's have a little budget over
(23:23):
there and we'll just do some, you know, health and well-being
stuff. When you actually start
embedding, you know, working with people and showing them the
evidence of what really does impact their health and start to
be integrated into everyday business, that's when you start
to see, you know, not a needle. Will leadership start to get on
(23:44):
board. And everyone is much more aware
of what actually does impact them.
So using evidence too, I think is really, really important.
How, how much do you find yourself sort of being asked
questions and kind of held in a box to some degree?
Like are, are companies willing to kind of pick apart their
processes? Because I, I can imagine you ask
(24:07):
those sort of big questions about, about companies and, and
why they are certain ways and how they work sort of things.
Are they do they prefer to say, you know, you, you, you stick to
the health and well-being thing and we'll, we'll keep to our,
our business? Or are they willing to kind of
look at the way they work generally, I suppose?
It varies and I, I, I suppose inthe first instance, they're not
(24:29):
going to appoint me as a consultant if they think that
health and well-being is to the side.
You know, they're actually looking to improve outcomes for
their employees in the first instance or they're trying to
make the so often in projects now there will be someone such
as myself with that health and well-being evidence based lens.
(24:51):
So, you know, we're, we're here is the design or here is the
design brief. Do do we have a strong lens or a
strong understanding of the, theevidence to, you know, support
this design that it is actually going to enable better health
outcomes? So I think you the the people
that all the organizations that are interested in and want and
(25:13):
engage are thinking differently anyway.
So it's, it's almost the same way people organizations are
approaching AI those that, you know, some people say CAI is a
thing over here that we can just, you know, make things a
little bit more efficient. But organizations that are
actually progressive, it's embedding it into everyday
(25:35):
business, everyday, everyday processes, everything that
you're doing and you're seeing those organizations will take
off and be super successful. So it is it is getting your head
around how it can be more integrated.
So how do we, how do we catch the organizations that on that
are putting it to the side. You know, obviously like you
(25:56):
say, the, the the ones that are employing you are are ready and
willing and embracing it. What are the?
What are the processes to improve the the other 50%?
Well, I, I wish I had that answer because then I'd have a
lot more clients. Look, I think it does, it comes
down to like a lot of these things, you know, it can be
(26:16):
about connection. So, you know, people might, I do
often public speaking as well. People might see me.
Oh, what that per, you know, Kirsten is making sense to me.
Yes, that makes so much more sense in the way we're currently
approaching it. Maybe we need to look at things
differently. That might be someone in APNC or
HR role. It might be an executive to say,
(26:37):
yes, this makes sense to me. Let's do things differently.
So I think it because some of it's awareness, some of it's,
you know, people keeping up withwhat, you know, better ways of
doing things or being more open.Any change or any improvement in
an organization or any organization that is putting
(26:58):
employee health at the centre, you know, that that just, it
starts like all these things. It starts with someone willing
and wanting to, you know, maybe improve outcomes for people.
Leading on to that point and, and kind of what I mentioned
previously, we, you have standards like well fit well,
which I know I know you you haveaccreditation for as well.
(27:21):
What roles do you think they play in all of these
conversations? And I mean, as an architect,
we've, we've had, you know, hundreds of conversations with
our clients previously about, you know, these standards and,
and, and how they sort of promote different aspects.
And each one probably goes slightly into different depths
about whether it's just the design front or whether it's the
organizational, organizational thing and, and how that sort of
(27:45):
works in a holistic way. How much do you think they are
useful which the the the conversation along or are they
are they more just about marketing and and you know,
sales to to potential, you know,lease leases?
I think they're super useful as,as a guide to or providing a set
(28:10):
of, you know, checklists or frameworks to measure projects
Again, So it's, it's similar to how we all had green star.
I'm guessing you have Green Staror the Green Building Council of
Australia or the, you know, world.
There's a stand. Yeah, Yeah, we have Briam.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And when that first started, everyone really struggled with
(28:32):
it. But now that's just become the
standard has been elevated and that's just the way we do
business now. That is the new standard.
You know, it's not a, it's not apush to reach those
environmental. So I think with these health
standards, it's the same thing that some of it, it's elevating
it in those checklists and it'lljust become part of business as
(28:53):
usual. The issue I have with both of
the standards that currently exist, well, the two American
ones is they're very US focused and there's no bending in terms
of nuance for regional. So what is law here and it's
just a given is not law in the US and you have to go and you
(29:14):
might have to go and prove a point where it's just law here.
So you don't need to prove it because that's just the way we
work. So I think they're valuable for
designers and project consultants to to as yeah, as
that checklist, whether you actually go to the cost and the
significant expense of getting the actual stamp.
(29:35):
Yeah, I think the jury's, you know, still still out on that.
You know, the money that you spend on that certification
could be, you know, spent on actually doing, you're using
those funds to up the grade the building to make sure that the
air quality is of, you know, improved or whatever you're
trying to focus on. So yeah, useful reference.
(29:57):
But whether you need to have thestamp, I'm, I'm sure others
would argue that the purpose of the stamp or the mark or that
you have is that it's, it indicates that you have a third
party endorsement, that it's notyou marking your own homework,
it's actually a third party marking your work.
And yeah, so I suppose that's where the value is for some
(30:19):
people. Yeah, I, I, I completely echo
that. And, and in my experience with
with clients is that thing of, you know, actually signing up
and getting the certification isthe big scary number and the,
the recurring costs and things like that.
But yeah, obviously as a, as a marketing tool, like you say,
the the OR I guess, you know, people coming into the building
to have something as, as that. I mean, are you, are you
(30:42):
finding, I suppose that the clients are asking for these
things? You know, obviously I'm probably
talking more bias from a developer LED, you know, office
building, for example, where, you know, they're putting in
things rather than the sort of fit out.
But is the if you're kind of pushing businesses, is the
market side demanding these things?
(31:03):
No. So I did spend a couple of years
working for one of the Australia's biggest landlords
who owns the most commercial real estate and we had these
conversations, you know, what's the value, should we do it?
I think that there's not enough awareness at the end like the
tenant end, so the end user end of the value of it.
So therefore it was like, well, what as a landlord, why would we
(31:25):
get that building certified if the tenant doesn't see any value
or doesn't know about it? So I think the fit well standard
is really the way it is set up. It's really accessible.
It is based on some really, really solid evidence.
They do have some really good checklists, but and I really
(31:46):
would love to see that because it the way it's, you know, it is
quite accessible, but there's noawareness of it in the
Australian market. So therefore it's that that's
how it's viewed. Say OK, the landlord says well
why should I go and get the stamp on the building if no one
knows what it means? So what are those?
I mean, obviously probably most of the people listening to this
(32:06):
can, can kind of, you know, havea small understanding and a
guess at what those sort of general health and well-being
strategies could be within, you know, within office space.
And like you say, the access to light, biophilia, you know,
walking up staircases. I think we can all kind of get
on board with that. But what are those things that
you're finding probably you know, most recently and most
pertinently kind of you know, design changes or office
(32:31):
structural things that that you are finding or you you
personally are pushing for as asevidence based?
Well, I think in terms of the evidence, so the factors that
really impact people's health isthe air quality and the access
to daylight. So access to daylight has a
massive impact on people's quality of sleep.
(32:51):
And as we know, sleeper is a, you know, pretty one of the big
pillars of good health. So if people aren't getting
enough daylight during their, during their working hours, they
will have, you know it will they, you can develop sleep
disorders or just have disordered sleep.
And same with the air quality. So the yes, the air quality is
(33:15):
critical. So that really comes back to the
base building and there's issues.
There's there's a balancing act that many asset owners have to
cope with because in order to keep the buildings really energy
efficient. So in order to keep them at a
certain rating, energy rating that controls how much you know,
(33:36):
fresh in air intake you're having, what temperature you're
setting the building. All your mechanical systems need
to be operating a certain level to keep them running
efficiently. Now, sometimes that is
incongruent with the level of, you know, fresh in air intake
that if you actually wanted to really clean up and really have
a super high quality air, the energy required to do that
(34:00):
becomes much greater. So then we're left in that
balancing, OK, what how do we treat, you know, unless more
contemporary buildings, more modern buildings, of course, are
much more efficient now. So that's not so much of an
issue, but with the bulk of the market being, you know,
buildings that are over 20 yearsold that there's only so
(34:22):
efficient without really cranking the the mechanical
systems. And then you then you're dealing
with the issues associated with,you know, climate issues
relating to too much energy consumption to balance like
everything isn't. It like everything, yeah, yeah,
yeah. How much do you find the, the
sustainability angle sits amongst this?
(34:44):
Because obviously we'd, we'd like to think that, you know,
sustainability sits holisticallywith health and well-being and.
And yeah, you know, they're all singing from the same hymn
sheet. But like you say, you just use
an example where maybe those twothings are, you know, sort of
fighting. Yeah, look, they go hand in
hand. I mean, obviously if we have,
(35:05):
you know, healthy humans as a healthy planet and vice versa,
healthy planet will make healthyhumans.
So I, the, the focus on sustainability in Australia is
getting, it is, you know, reasonable mandatory reporting
of carbon has just commenced. So that now changes the dial,
(35:27):
the focus now we now projects are much more focused, right?
There's two columns on projects now.
We've got the financial column, then we've got the carbon
column. So decisions are not just 100%
based on, I don't know Europe and you guys have been doing it
for a long time, but we're getting there, we're getting on
board now. So but that takes and you
(35:48):
probably have experience of thistoo, it takes time for it to be
better down and become part of everyday business.
So there is and now you know many of the large landlords that
own these commercial assets are you know reporting to their
shareholders. Shareholders, particularly all
the superannuation companies owna lot of these assets.
(36:10):
People are asking questions about their, the environmental
responsibility, the social responsibility.
So it, it's shining a lot more light on it.
There's a much more focus, You know, we, we, we're getting
there and we're making progress.But the issue around there's
still a lot of short term decision making, particularly in
(36:33):
a market where you've got low occupancy, you know, just post
COVID mop up dealing when when you're a landlord and you just
need to get the building fill full, you'll, you know, cut
corners or do whatever's required to make it so rather
than thinking about long term sustainability outcomes.
With, with that sort of point about sort of post COVID that
(36:57):
you just made, how and how have you sort of seen it over the
last couple of years? And obviously we're we're kind
of in this kind of strange period where we're now looking
at pushing workers back into theoffice.
And I suppose it must be being an incredibly kind of
interesting time for you to kindof understand the impact of home
working and now sort of this, you know, this period of now to
(37:19):
the post home working where, youknow, people are dragging their
feet back into the office. And, and I suppose the, the
potential draw or improvement oran improvement on people's
health and well-being by being back in those spaces, you know,
rather than more working flexibly.
Well, it was interesting. I was finishing my, my research,
(37:40):
my PhD, pretty much just in the beginning stretches of COVID,
and there was already some starting some research starting
to appear. And what was unfortunate that
while we people didn't have commute times, they had an extra
hour or two in their day that they weren't replacing that time
with, you know, doing something good for themselves or their
family, you know, walking, doingwhatever with their families or
(38:03):
on their own. They were just replacing it with
more work. So which was a shame because we
had that, that moment to actually, you know, for some
people, they did improve their health outcomes, but most of the
research showed that that didn'thappen.
We didn't replace it with, you know, looking after ourselves.
And I think that now that, you know, we, we're, we're on the
(38:24):
other side of the tired conversation around hybrid, no
hybrid. What are we doing?
More productive, productive. I I feel like that the
conversation has moved to be much more focused on the value
of humans being together in in one space, the value of us being
connected, the value of how ideas and things happen when
(38:49):
people, humans are physically together and recognizing that
being at home while we all did get work done because we had no
choice. Yes, do things got things
happened and life went on because that we're all all in it
together, that it has led to, you know, a lot of issues around
(39:10):
loneliness and disconnection. One of the pieces of research I
spent a bit of time looking at is that blurred line between
work and home that we didn't have before.
That people in, you know, appreciated that time on that on
their commute that they had to themselves.
So for many, that was theirs, their time in the day where they
could tune out, put music on, read a book, whatever they did
(39:32):
before they entered the home environment, they had that
break. They had that stop and start
then when you have a blur, when the line is blurred is then it
was sort of many employers feel like, oh, well, you're, you're
of course you're available all the time now because you're, you
know, so that blurred line does have an impact and it needs to
(39:53):
be really carefully managed and that's a personal responsibility
to, you know, put those boundaries up.
So I and I think the the net outcome will.
And I feel like where we got, where we're settling, it has
made a massive improvement into people's health and well-being
because we can now start to see that you get the benefit of
(40:15):
connection and being together with others a few days a week.
We have the benefit of possibly being at home and having, if
we're depending on our personality, we can have that,
that home environment isn't now extension of the office versus
the other way around. That if we need to do quiet work
and concentrate and disconnect, we have the opportunity to do
(40:37):
that for periods in in a remote environment.
And we can hopefully use those days to focus more on ourselves
where we don't have the commute time.
So the and the other benefit, ofcourse, is that if your work
environment doesn't have the cleanest air or you know, you're
sitting in the dark corner, thatthat you're mitigating any.
(41:00):
If your work environment isn't agrade, you're mitigating it
because you're not there five days a week.
So, you know, and the other way around, some people might be
living in tiny apartments that all places that aren't ideal to
be in five days a week either. So yeah, you're getting the
benefit of both environments, I think where I feel like it's
settling and and will make sensefor everyone.
(41:22):
Do you do you find that that is now also part of the
conversation that you're having with with companies?
Yeah, the health and well-being conversation is, is about that
flexibility inherent and that's have has proven benefits I
suppose. Yeah, I've yes, definitely the
initially the conversation around hybrid working and this
(41:44):
sort of old mandating or no mandating or return to the
office was this conversation around trust.
Oh, I, I I need to have your nervous because I don't trust
you or you, you know, which of course is a fundamental pillar
of any working relationship or whether it's a marriage or an
employee employee, you know, trust is fundamental.
(42:04):
But I've that conversation is now boot moved beyond that.
And yes, people do ask me, OK, what is the to achieved employee
optimal health? What's the right what's the
right balance? What's how many days in, out,
you know? Yeah, what's?
The secret? Yeah, What's the secret?
What's the scientific formula tell you know, I need to know if
my people are in 22 hours a weekthat they're gonna be an optimal
(42:27):
performance, You know, because again, we're dealing with
humans, every humans different. The work that we do, the way we
deal with our managers and the people around us is unique and
every day and is constantly moving.
There's no, there's no magic formula, you know, and then I
think it just comes back to someof those fundamental, you know,
if there is those that trust relationship depending on the
(42:50):
work that you do to isn't most effective.
You know, in the case of design and architecture, it's probably
most effective done for many of us together because you're in
the business of ideas and problem solving.
And again, that can be most effectively done together.
If you're more of a processing type person, you might be, you
know, not being with your colleagues all the time might be
(43:12):
OK for the role you do. So it depends so much on and I
think it's also another big factor around health is life
stage. Depending on where you are in
your career and your, whether you're having families or not
does have a massive impact on what people's commitments are
outside their work. And, and that does, and you
(43:36):
know, a lot of, there's a lot ofconversations in the workshops
that I do around that piece is that people that have high
commitments outside work, whether they're training for the
Olympics, have young children, whatever they're doing, are
often marked down for lack of commitment to the organizational
passion for the job because they're not there 60 hours a
(43:57):
week. But often that's not the case.
They are very passionate, very committed and they're committed
the time that they're there, butthey have a really full life
outside work. So it's really important to, I
think, to recognise that, you know, from that, particularly
that well-being lens. And do you think you you, you
sort of feel that from personal experiences like to spoke about
(44:19):
with your landscape architect career?
And I know personally as an architect with the three kids
and one of them disabled, you know, like it is, you know, life
having, being a full life outside of work is a is an
incredibly difficult thing to manage alongside a creative
career. Totally.
And that's probably Part 1 of the reasons why I put it to the
side in the end, because it just, it didn't align.
(44:40):
And having a husband who was hada really big job, one of us had
to be the primary carer or, you know, be run, be at home, you
know, someone's got to do it. And, you know, at the time, I
found that quite difficult that I sort of had to take step back.
(45:00):
But now what is really fantasticand, and you know, it's good to
know is that I now have young adult children who have actually
said, thanks, mum. We know we, they've recognized
that. They actually say, we know that
you took a step back. We know that you made career
choices, you know, putting us atthe front.
(45:23):
At the time it's not that easy to do that, but now I'm glad I
did do it. I remind my children to say that
to their mother, and they're when they're.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, they'll probably they'll, you know, it's a, it's a, you
know, at the end of the day, when you leave the planet, it's
not about the job that you had. It's the, you know, the legacy
of your children or other legacies that will you'll be
(45:44):
remembered for. So I suppose that's if you
really step back and look at your career as part of, you
know, yourself on the planet, planet, that's what it probably
counts more. With that, with that in mind,
and you've, you've wrapped her up quite nicely in a bow.
Looking at your career journey, what, what do you think those
key lessons that you found are? And I suppose obviously talking
(46:06):
to you has been, you know, fascinating and, and you've had
lots of different career points and obviously, you know, you're,
you're our first doctor. That's that's been on the show.
What, what, what do you think are those kind of key lessons
that you can take away from fromthat sort of that wiggly career
path you've taken? I suppose never stop learning
(46:29):
and I know I'm probably on the extreme end that I've, you know,
done so much formal study, but Ithrive on that.
I really enjoy the OR just learning and just hearing
different things in different perspectives and going in
different directions. And I suppose it, what it gives
you is you get a really good sense of how things are put
(46:54):
together and in a much more broader context.
And you can, I mean, even if youstudy one path, of course you
can understand life from different perspectives, But it,
I suppose it, it's given me that.
But I do also admire people thathave done, you know, have
studied a particular vocation and done that because they
(47:16):
become absolute experts in theirgame.
You know, when you see architects that have been
architects for 30 years, they are really, really good.
They're really, really and, and,and sometimes any career, it's
the what makes you good at it isactually just longevity, like
doing it for a long time. There's a lot of stuff as you
(47:38):
know as a practising architect that you just couldn't.
You just can't know without experience with time.
Yeah, without doing it, without living it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I think that, yeah, never
stop learning. And whether that's on the job
learning, you know, having an open mindset is really
(47:58):
fundamental, particularly in themodern world.
You, you'll be left behind if you, you know, you really need
to anything that comes at you, any amount of change, go with
change. Change is good.
Keep a normal mindset that will help you, you know, get through
anything that's presented to youthat might seem really difficult
or you know, different to the way you think.
(48:21):
On the other side, there will besome valuable learning and it
will open a door or another another pathway for sure.
Yeah, I think that's the sort ofbeautiful mindset to kind of see
change and challenge as a sort of positive and something to
thrive on rather than, you know,being scared of it sort of
thing. Yeah.
(48:41):
With all of this in mind, has your has your career unfolded in
a way that you could have imagined or had any element of
planning to? No, in a nutshell, I mean.
That's OK. That's not a yeah.
Yeah, Yeah. That's not a right answer.
I suppose when, yeah, maybe whenI was younger I was quite
(49:02):
focused on, you know, really having a quite a clear pathway
and progressing step up and you know, managing this and and
growing and developing. But that's how I saw the growing
and developing by moving up, whereas I've probably moved
about and found that equally as rewarding and enriching.
(49:25):
So yeah, I think that any pathway doesn't need to
necessarily. And for some people that is
important, moving up, having more people, more responsibility
that is important to them. But I, I started out probably
with that intention and then have just enjoyed the different
path, even though I feel like there is a common thread
(49:48):
throughout it the exactly your question at the beginning around
focusing on people. But yeah, I, I think that it's,
it's all interesting. It's all learning.
It's all sort of part of work and part of life.
And and with that in mind, what's what's next?
(50:08):
What is next? Look, I feel like I'm at a place
now where I can actually fully commit to the work that I'm
doing again now that I'm on the other side of children, that I
had my capacity to think. It's amazing when you don't have
family logistics operating, you know, when you're not operating
(50:29):
a whole, you know, universe. You had a good night's sleep as
well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You get a good night's sleep. You can think straight.
You can actually think much deeper for much more longer
periods of time. You're not disrupted.
So I feel like it's focusing, Yeah, more of the same and
really becoming a true expert inwhen it comes to how, how the
(50:52):
environment does impact people'sand the workplace does impact
people's health and well-being. And that's just through, again,
more some of it's rate, just formal research, some of it's
connecting, it's doing projects.Every project that you do, you
learn something. So I feel like it's, and of
course, yeah, a little bit of, you know, a bit more fun not
(51:12):
working. I don't need to work 60 hours.
I'm doing a more, I'm actually starting to do a lot more local
volunteering, which again, is really enriching.
I haven't had the capacity to dothat.
So I love the fact that I can connect with my community that I
haven't been able to do before. So yeah, I think really focusing
(51:34):
in on where my skill set is now and yeah, community having some
other interests outside work that don't.
Yeah, it's not just all work. Kirsten, thank you so much for
joining me. Absolutely fascinating
conversation and hopefully lots to take away from that.
Yeah. Well, thank you.
You've had it's really interesting questions too.
(51:55):
So yeah. Hopefully.
Yeah, no. Well, you know, this is
obviously something that you're really interested and passionate
about. And Eddie, I'm sure Eddie is
really interesting from your perspective, hearing all, all
the different stories that people have to tell.
Exactly. Perfect.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
Initially, the conversation around hybrid working was trust.
Oh, I need to hit you in the office because I don't trust you
or I feel like that. The conversation has moved to be
much more focused on the value of humans being together.
Doctor Kirsten Brown is an experienced workplace strategy
and well-being consultant with aPhD in Health in the workplace.
(00:20):
She's a thought leader and expert in building health and
resilience in organisations for a more productive workforce.
She currently works as a self-employed consultant, having
been involved in all aspects of workplace consultancy design,
real estate, commerce and research.
We're dealing with humans, everyhumans different.
The work that we do, the way we deal with our managers.
There's no magic formula. What are those things, design
(00:41):
changes or office structural things that that you are finding
or you personally are pushing for as as evidence based?
Well, I think in terms of the evidence the the factors that
really impact people's health isthe air quality and the access
to daylight. Sometimes any career, what makes
you good at it is actually just longevity, like doing it for a
long time. There's a lot of stuff that you
(01:02):
just can't know without experience.
I don't know whether you've everheard that expression that
people say, oh, you should work in an organization that the
values align with your values, just like, oh, what does that
actually mean? But it wasn't until I worked in
a place that the values didn't align with my values that I
understood it very loud and clear.
(01:25):
Gaston, thank you so much for joining me.
It's so good to be here. I usually start by asking our
guests why architecture, but I think given your sort of diverse
career, I think the question is a bit more nuanced, if you would
agree. So I suppose across all of your
roles, the sort of common denominator theme seems to be a
(01:46):
sort of thread about people's relationships with their
environment. What is it about this that kind
of fascinates you? Well, I suppose there's so many
dimensions to it. I, I suppose I started out in
landscape architecture because Ifound that really interesting,
the relationship between how people respond and enjoy more of
(02:09):
an external environment. While I was at school, I was
really interested in natural systems.
I did, you know, biology, biology and geography, geology,
et cetera. And that sort of led me on that
path to understand that the natural environment, you know,
and more of a design sense. So I suppose that's where it
started. And then to build on that in
(02:31):
terms of how people respond to it.
Is that the next area of study Iwanted to understand was
actually from the client perspective, how they see
projects and what is important to them.
So yeah. And then and then later in my
career in that really in depth research part, again, it's how
people, what's important to people, what, how we how we can
(02:55):
actually elevate the experience,whether it's interior or
exterior and really make places and spaces that people thrive
in. Let's talk about the early sort
of experience of, of landscape architecture, like the, the
that's obviously a design background and you later go on
to, you know, go more into sort of research and sales and lots
of different things. But what was it that kind of
(03:17):
initially kind of drew you to tolandscapes in particular?
Well, that's actually quite funny because when I had, you
know, this is a long time ago when when, Well actually there
wasn't even the Internet when I went to uni, when I started,
when I got, and it was a book. It was a book produced by the
university. It was a paragraph with two
sentences in it describing what the degree was about, you know,
(03:40):
amongst all the other degrees. And that's how you chose it.
That was it. I must say I didn't actually
have a full understanding of what I was getting myself into
when I chose this degree. Me from 2 sentences in a in a
book I was sort of quite surprised at while it was all
about natural systems, you know,and the environment and botany
(04:02):
etcetera, etcetera. Obviously design is at the
centre of it and probably designis not my strength, but I, I
stuck at it because I found learning about the design
process, the way you go through the, you know, it's quite a
different way of thinking when you actually step through and
you're trained in terms of how you view the world and how you
(04:25):
take parts of, you know, how yousolve problems.
So I think that's how I, you know, ended up, I started on
that path, you know, and then four years later finished it.
I think the other major part that really ignited my interest
and continued with landscape, I had a opportunity to work to go
(04:47):
to a university in America, to the University of Illinois.
And landscape architecture as a profession was much more highly
regarded and respected and was much more.
It wasn't just sort of somethingon the side that came after
architecture, it was actually integrated into projects.
So yeah, that sort of got me started on the process, but it
(05:09):
was probably more by accident really.
You you. You'd be surprised how many
people that say that. Yeah, but you know, that's life,
isn't it? That exactly.
Yeah, completely. How long How long do you
practice in in landscape architecture before you moved
over to the real estate world? It was probably about a decade.
(05:31):
I by then I had two young children and I suppose I started
to move away from it because I found I just wasn't enjoying it
enough. I found it, you know, very long
hours. I wasn't, you know, wasn't 100%
passionate about it. I was at a point where if I was
going to be away from my children, you know, putting them
(05:51):
in daycare, etcetera, it had to really count.
You know, I had to really want to be loving the work I did.
What was that next step into real estate?
What was it that kind of drew you to that area of of of kind
of the built environment? The reason why I wanted to
undertake that study, more formal study is that I found
often in projects, particularly the way landscape was positioned
(06:14):
in as part of the project. And it's, it's amazing to see
now because you know, the we're so much more focused on the
environment and natural systems is that landscape as a
profession is much more pivotal in projects.
So back then, because it was often it wasn't as valued, I
really wanted to understand whatwere the drivers from the client
(06:36):
end? So what were the key things?
What, what, what did they place value on and and why, why did
they place value on particular parts of projects?
So that's when I started to really become more interested
in, yeah, that end of how, how does the deal stack up?
How does a, how is a project formed?
How and how and why are these the parameters and and the
(07:00):
design? How does the design process fit
into that? Yeah, it's fascinating because I
mean, I've had so many sort of friends and colleagues that get
probably in a similar sort of situation, get to that sort of
point in their career where theywant more of an understanding
like, like, like, like yourself of the bigger picture of, you
know, the, the, the overarching idea around, you know, how
things get built and, and how, Isuppose development it actually
(07:24):
happens. And was that, I mean, was there
much sort of transferable skillsfrom landscaping to that realm?
Or is that quite a sort of freshstart and you were kind of
starting? No, no, no, it's all it's all
useful. I mean, and that's often what
people say, oh, you know, and I even see my children at
university now and oh, it's all wait, you know, I shouldn't have
done that. I shouldn't no, no study or, you
(07:48):
know, learning is wasted. And even now everyday, all of
the, you know, maybe the plant names aren't so relevant in my
daily life, but the process, thethinking, the way you, you, you,
you know, design is all about problem solving, you know, in a,
in a quite a clever way. So I, that even was relevant
(08:11):
when I approached my PhD. And what was super interesting
is my supervisor said, oh, many people that undertake APHD find
it very difficult to, you know, they do some work, they write it
and then they might just have tobeen part, part, you know, big
sections of it because it becomes as you work through the
(08:32):
journey, you know, it's not relevant or some, you know, it
goes in different directions. And that's what design is that,
that design process is that sometimes you head down a path
and you have to go a bit to the left to know that a bit to the
left is the wrong decision or a bit to the right.
That, and it's iterative. You're constantly refining it
and, and, and it is a, it's never a straight pass.
(08:52):
So those, those skills definitely are useful.
And I've still use those you know today.
So from client side, we jump nowinto sort of product side,
product sales, marketing obviously in this sort of
commercial interiors and that's something you've spent quite a
(09:13):
period of time. I know you worked at Herman
Miller for a for a long time. What's that experience like with
a? With a different sort of focus,
I suppose? Look, the reason I, when I was
at that point in my career, I was very specific about where I
chose to work. So I know sometimes it's
difficult when you come to that crossroads about, OK, what do I
(09:36):
want to do? You know, what am I good at?
Where would I like to work? I was really clear.
I actually took it. I actually had created a list of
the companies that I wanted to work for.
So I had previously had a, a stint in a construction company
and I wasn't, you know, I don't know whether you've ever heard
(09:57):
that expression that people say,oh, you should work in an
organization that the values align with your values.
And, and I never really understood what that meant.
It's like, oh, what does that actually mean?
But it wasn't until I worked in a place that the values didn't
align with my values that I understood it very loud and
(10:19):
clear, you know, just a very oldschool construction company that
just, you know, just didn't for a whole bunch of reasons.
Anyway, so that I had a very clear list here of the types of
companies that I would like to work for.
One of them was Herman Miller. The reason being is that
everything they do is it's very design focused.
(10:41):
It's very considered, it's builton evidence.
It's very anything that it that they create.
It's it often, you know, I mean,timeless is probably too strong
a word, but it, it's it all the the way they go about their
processes. I thought, you know, it was a
place that aligned again with myvalues so that there any in
(11:07):
Australia though at that time and still today, there's only
four or 500 million people in Australia.
So they're they're not jobs thatcome around very often.
I so a job came around yeah and I applied for it and and was
successful. So, yeah, super, yeah, super
interesting company and, and what I find fascinating about
(11:31):
that company is that they have managed to capture history and
culture that was built by a few very special individuals that,
you know, Ray and Charles Eames and other people of that era.
It's still embedded into their culture everyday and everything
they design and and that is pretty unique I think.
(11:55):
Sure. I mean it, it sounds like a sort
of glowing review of your experience there.
What was that? Sort of.
Yeah. How many years were you there?
It was more than. 08, yeah, about 8 years. 8-9 years.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
What was your experience sort ofmoving through that company?
Because I I know that there was a sort of sales role, marketing
role and and then into a more sort of an exploratory thing
(12:17):
that probably lead on to your PhD.
Yeah, look what I spoke. There was lots of things, as I
said, Yeah, the companies as itself I was aligned with and
really enjoyed the role itself. I was the only person in Sydney
based in Sydney, so it was very autonomous.
You know, to be completely frank, it also really a lot.
(12:39):
It was really helpful at the period of where I was in my
life. I had two young children.
I needed fully flexible living and working.
And then a lot of flexible jobs just didn't exist.
No, flexible was, oh, did you want to pick your children up
one day a week or something? So the role was fully
(13:00):
autonomous. I'm a motivated and, you know,
hard working person. So I just get on and and do
things And it led me and I builta whole lot of skills around,
you know, working with people, managing the dealers, learning
how products, you know, how things are put together.
And then yes, as you said, I started on the journey of
(13:24):
research there because they, they obviously need do huge
amounts of research for their products.
Yeah. And I teamed up actually before
I started Herman Miller, I remember now they had a
researcher coming to Australia to understand workplace here
because it is tends to be a little bit more forward thinking
(13:44):
than the US market. And they need the, the person
needed an assistant, the the researcher needed an assistant.
And I said, OK, I'll do it. Yeah.
So that was my first sort of bite.
And look at what does research look like in a, you know, from
an industry perspective. What was it that that made you
decide to jump into a PhD? Did it kind of naturally flow
(14:08):
from the work you were doing andand kind of thought felt like a
sort of natural extension of that or was it, I mean, did you
have a burning desire to do it? No, no, it not actually.
What? Again, it's funny how these
things happen. So it was at a stage, I'm not
sure whether you remember, but about 10 years ago, every
(14:28):
headline related to to interiorsand workplace was sitting is the
new smoking. Do do you remember that?
You know that headline sitting isn't.
And it was everywhere. It was everywhere and every
conference you went to and everyone was always talking
about sitting is the new smoking.
We're all gonna die because we sit too much.
I I start, I want, I was really intrigued by that.
I'm quite a curious person. I was like, OK, I want to
(14:49):
actually understand what is behind these headlines that
people is everywhere. And when I started unpicking it
and doing a little bit of research, I found that behind
those headlines were five peoplefor five days, you know, three
people for six days, that the actual size of the experiments
or what was being the data that was pretty, you know, making
(15:11):
these headlines was pretty, pretty, you know, loose.
It wasn't. I don't, I wouldn't have rated
that. Yeah.
So I start, I don't actually even know how.
I then decided, oh, OK, maybe I should, you know, do a little
bit more. So I just started inch by inch,
started doing some research and then we to do a PhD here in
(15:32):
Australia. You, you pretty much pitched to
a university and say, here's my idea, here's what I want to
research. And then you're funded by the
federal government. And so I created A and I ended
up in the faculty of Health, which was on which I chose to do
because I wanted to have a lot of rigour, that sort of health
rigour to the research rather than more design.
(15:54):
And then initially it started off as a, as a more of a
master's in research. And then they're saying, oh,
this topic's way too big and complicated.
You need to do a PHDI was like, oh, do I OK, I'll do 1.
So, so, yeah, again, it wasn't aconscious, OK, I really want to
(16:14):
do this. And this is something that is,
you know, a life idea. It really came about just, you
know, probably the same way as Istarted my bachelor degree.
OK, I'm going to, I'm going to tell everyone what the title of
the PhD is, the relationship between workplace to design and
perceived health status of office workers, a salut genic
(16:36):
perspective. Could you just tell us a little
bit about your findings? Yeah, OK.
So the way I undertook the studyin the end is that I used a case
study of an organization moving from one location to another.
So I had pre and post data and the the post environment was
(16:56):
actually specifically designed with health and well-being in
mind. And what was really interesting
is that while many of the elements existed that you would
what you would expect to see with that focus.
So lots of biophilia, natural light, the access to stairs, all
the things that do count. Is that the bit that was missing
(17:18):
that really the didn't you know it could have been elevated to a
whole new level was the communications piece?
Is that piece it or what is known as health promotion?
So if you create these environments, you really need to
work with people, you know when they move in and then ongoing
(17:39):
in, explain to them why the space has been designed a
certain way and then how to use it.
So when I did different cohorts of, for example, how and why to
use a desk and chair, those thathad that training actually sat
list. So and those that were explained
(17:59):
the importance and the value of taking the stairs a few times a
day, use the stairs more versus those that the stairs were just
there. So that was one of the key
findings is that it's not only important to create these
environments, but you do need tocommunicate the value and
importance of them on an ongoingbasis.
(18:20):
Because what might seem really obvious sometimes is not.
We often need to be as humans need to know the why to to to
see the value in things. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's,
that is the kind of fascinating sort of idea because obviously
as as an architect, we always kind of think that people will
will see what we see, will understand what our intentions
(18:40):
are between the decisions we make.
And I always find it incredibly fascinating how I always will.
I've I've, I've, I've done this anecdote before, but I always
use my wife as an example of howa, how a, a non architect
understands the world around her.
And, and when we, whenever we sit anywhere in a restaurant or
something, the things that I notice versus the things that
she notices sort of thing, and how she experiences the space
(19:03):
versus I, how I experience the space sort of thing.
And it is that thing of when you're a designer, you just kind
of you presume it's implied or it's it's understood, but.
Like you say like. The communication around it
feels, yeah, like that missing piece.
Yeah, I totally agree. And there's so many examples of
that and it and that actually came out loud and clear in my
(19:24):
research. So and you and that sayetogenic
lens is actually focusing on that you you need to have a much
more holistic view of projects and really in order to actually
maximize their full potential. So really looking at all the
factors rather than just the designed environment, all the
(19:44):
other layers that make the environment, you know, most, you
know, most effective in terms ofhealth outcomes.
I think that's the thing, isn't it, when you when you think
about all these conversations and, and I'll come on to the on
the question later about sort of, you know, the different
building standards that talk about, you know, the the, the
qualities, the different office spaces should be.
But I suppose the point is about.
(20:08):
The organization as a whole and probably leading onto what you
said previously about the, the ethos behind Herman Miller, you
know, the organization that sings at all levels through its
ideology. It's it's way of thinking and
through it's sort of architecture and design sort of
thing. It's not one without the other,
I suppose. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You do need, you need all of it to to sing, don't you?
(20:30):
For it to all make sense, particularly to the end user
that sometimes things that exactly that as designers make
sense, just common sense that wejust take for granted.
But yeah, it's not it needs to often be communicated.
And I think, you know, the otherpart that is often forgotten is
that as designers that are focused on creating spaces is
(20:52):
that space can fix, fix the problem, fix the problems.
But you can have the most amazing spaces.
But if the culture is not right or is not positive, then the
space really is, you know, come become secondary.
So yeah, there's obviously otherelements.
So with this with this point in your career, you now have a a
(21:15):
shiny doctorate to move forward with and you're specialising in
workplace design. You then decide to sort of go
out as a sort of consultant and I know originally as an employee
and now is your own, your own body sort of thing.
What does your sort of work looklike in that sort of consultancy
and, and what's your kind of day-to-day process of providing
(21:37):
advice for, I guess organisations and and different
companies looking for a different way of working, I
suppose? Well, at the moment my work
consists a lot of I do tend to do a lot of workshops.
I feel Co designing and engagingpeople in an organization,
whatever the outcome you're trying to achieve is just so
(22:00):
critical to success. Whether you're you know, I often
I might be working with employees to create what they
think is an effective health andwell-being policy or strategy
for their organization, or it could actually be in terms of
workplace strategy. So what is the workplace?
How how do we want it to be? How do we work?
How are we going to work in the future?
(22:21):
Really identifying the key factors, the purpose of the, the
workplace. And you know, there's so much
research and evidence that we all know about that.
If you engage the end users, theemployees, all those that are
going to be actively impacted bythe strategy, the policy, you
have such better outcomes because people again, understand
(22:42):
from the, you know, they have input, so they're invested in
it. They will be more committed to
it. They also understand the why.
So they don't just turn up at day one when something is built
or something is written and they're expected to adopt it or
believe it that they've, if they've been part of it, that
engagement and you just you, youcan see.
(23:02):
And that's actually really rewarding when you see better
outcomes that people. And then in terms of the health
and well-being strategy, is thatoften you in smaller
organisations, they might see health and well-being as
something to the side. Is that OK?
Here's our business. Oh, we know we need to look
after our people. Let's have a little budget over
(23:23):
there and we'll just do some, you know, health and well-being
stuff. When you actually start
embedding, you know, working with people and showing them the
evidence of what really does impact their health and start to
be integrated into everyday business, that's when you start
to see, you know, not a needle. Will leadership start to get on
(23:44):
board. And everyone is much more aware
of what actually does impact them.
So using evidence too, I think is really, really important.
How, how much do you find yourself sort of being asked
questions and kind of held in a box to some degree?
Like are, are companies willing to kind of pick apart their
processes? Because I, I can imagine you ask
(24:07):
those sort of big questions about, about companies and, and
why they are certain ways and how they work sort of things.
Are they do they prefer to say, you know, you, you, you stick to
the health and well-being thing and we'll, we'll keep to our,
our business? Or are they willing to kind of
look at the way they work generally, I suppose?
It varies and I, I, I suppose inthe first instance, they're not
(24:29):
going to appoint me as a consultant if they think that
health and well-being is to the side.
You know, they're actually looking to improve outcomes for
their employees in the first instance or they're trying to
make the so often in projects now there will be someone such
as myself with that health and well-being evidence based lens.
(24:51):
So, you know, we're, we're here is the design or here is the
design brief. Do do we have a strong lens or a
strong understanding of the, theevidence to, you know, support
this design that it is actually going to enable better health
outcomes? So I think you the the people
that all the organizations that are interested in and want and
(25:13):
engage are thinking differently anyway.
So it's, it's almost the same way people organizations are
approaching AI those that, you know, some people say CAI is a
thing over here that we can just, you know, make things a
little bit more efficient. But organizations that are
actually progressive, it's embedding it into everyday
(25:35):
business, everyday, everyday processes, everything that
you're doing and you're seeing those organizations will take
off and be super successful. So it is it is getting your head
around how it can be more integrated.
So how do we, how do we catch the organizations that on that
are putting it to the side. You know, obviously like you
(25:56):
say, the, the the ones that are employing you are are ready and
willing and embracing it. What are the?
What are the processes to improve the the other 50%?
Well, I, I wish I had that answer because then I'd have a
lot more clients. Look, I think it does, it comes
down to like a lot of these things, you know, it can be
(26:16):
about connection. So, you know, people might, I do
often public speaking as well. People might see me.
Oh, what that per, you know, Kirsten is making sense to me.
Yes, that makes so much more sense in the way we're currently
approaching it. Maybe we need to look at things
differently. That might be someone in APNC or
HR role. It might be an executive to say,
(26:37):
yes, this makes sense to me. Let's do things differently.
So I think it because some of it's awareness, some of it's,
you know, people keeping up withwhat, you know, better ways of
doing things or being more open.Any change or any improvement in
an organization or any organization that is putting
(26:58):
employee health at the centre, you know, that that just, it
starts like all these things. It starts with someone willing
and wanting to, you know, maybe improve outcomes for people.
Leading on to that point and, and kind of what I mentioned
previously, we, you have standards like well fit well,
which I know I know you you haveaccreditation for as well.
(27:21):
What roles do you think they play in all of these
conversations? And I mean, as an architect,
we've, we've had, you know, hundreds of conversations with
our clients previously about, you know, these standards and,
and, and how they sort of promote different aspects.
And each one probably goes slightly into different depths
about whether it's just the design front or whether it's the
organizational, organizational thing and, and how that sort of
(27:45):
works in a holistic way. How much do you think they are
useful which the the the conversation along or are they
are they more just about marketing and and you know,
sales to to potential, you know,lease leases?
I think they're super useful as,as a guide to or providing a set
(28:10):
of, you know, checklists or frameworks to measure projects
Again, So it's, it's similar to how we all had green star.
I'm guessing you have Green Staror the Green Building Council of
Australia or the, you know, world.
There's a stand. Yeah, Yeah, we have Briam.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And when that first started, everyone really struggled with
(28:32):
it. But now that's just become the
standard has been elevated and that's just the way we do
business now. That is the new standard.
You know, it's not a, it's not apush to reach those
environmental. So I think with these health
standards, it's the same thing that some of it, it's elevating
it in those checklists and it'lljust become part of business as
(28:53):
usual. The issue I have with both of
the standards that currently exist, well, the two American
ones is they're very US focused and there's no bending in terms
of nuance for regional. So what is law here and it's
just a given is not law in the US and you have to go and you
(29:14):
might have to go and prove a point where it's just law here.
So you don't need to prove it because that's just the way we
work. So I think they're valuable for
designers and project consultants to to as yeah, as
that checklist, whether you actually go to the cost and the
significant expense of getting the actual stamp.
(29:35):
Yeah, I think the jury's, you know, still still out on that.
You know, the money that you spend on that certification
could be, you know, spent on actually doing, you're using
those funds to up the grade the building to make sure that the
air quality is of, you know, improved or whatever you're
trying to focus on. So yeah, useful reference.
(29:57):
But whether you need to have thestamp, I'm, I'm sure others
would argue that the purpose of the stamp or the mark or that
you have is that it's, it indicates that you have a third
party endorsement, that it's notyou marking your own homework,
it's actually a third party marking your work.
And yeah, so I suppose that's where the value is for some
(30:19):
people. Yeah, I, I, I completely echo
that. And, and in my experience with
with clients is that thing of, you know, actually signing up
and getting the certification isthe big scary number and the,
the recurring costs and things like that.
But yeah, obviously as a, as a marketing tool, like you say,
the the OR I guess, you know, people coming into the building
to have something as, as that. I mean, are you, are you
(30:42):
finding, I suppose that the clients are asking for these
things? You know, obviously I'm probably
talking more bias from a developer LED, you know, office
building, for example, where, you know, they're putting in
things rather than the sort of fit out.
But is the if you're kind of pushing businesses, is the
market side demanding these things?
(31:03):
No. So I did spend a couple of years
working for one of the Australia's biggest landlords
who owns the most commercial real estate and we had these
conversations, you know, what's the value, should we do it?
I think that there's not enough awareness at the end like the
tenant end, so the end user end of the value of it.
So therefore it was like, well, what as a landlord, why would we
(31:25):
get that building certified if the tenant doesn't see any value
or doesn't know about it? So I think the fit well standard
is really the way it is set up. It's really accessible.
It is based on some really, really solid evidence.
They do have some really good checklists, but and I really
(31:46):
would love to see that because it the way it's, you know, it is
quite accessible, but there's noawareness of it in the
Australian market. So therefore it's that that's
how it's viewed. Say OK, the landlord says well
why should I go and get the stamp on the building if no one
knows what it means? So what are those?
I mean, obviously probably most of the people listening to this
(32:06):
can, can kind of, you know, havea small understanding and a
guess at what those sort of general health and well-being
strategies could be within, you know, within office space.
And like you say, the access to light, biophilia, you know,
walking up staircases. I think we can all kind of get
on board with that. But what are those things that
you're finding probably you know, most recently and most
pertinently kind of you know, design changes or office
(32:31):
structural things that that you are finding or you you
personally are pushing for as asevidence based?
Well, I think in terms of the evidence, so the factors that
really impact people's health isthe air quality and the access
to daylight. So access to daylight has a
massive impact on people's quality of sleep.
(32:51):
And as we know, sleeper is a, you know, pretty one of the big
pillars of good health. So if people aren't getting
enough daylight during their, during their working hours, they
will have, you know it will they, you can develop sleep
disorders or just have disordered sleep.
And same with the air quality. So the yes, the air quality is
(33:15):
critical. So that really comes back to the
base building and there's issues.
There's there's a balancing act that many asset owners have to
cope with because in order to keep the buildings really energy
efficient. So in order to keep them at a
certain rating, energy rating that controls how much you know,
(33:36):
fresh in air intake you're having, what temperature you're
setting the building. All your mechanical systems need
to be operating a certain level to keep them running
efficiently. Now, sometimes that is
incongruent with the level of, you know, fresh in air intake
that if you actually wanted to really clean up and really have
a super high quality air, the energy required to do that
(34:00):
becomes much greater. So then we're left in that
balancing, OK, what how do we treat, you know, unless more
contemporary buildings, more modern buildings, of course, are
much more efficient now. So that's not so much of an
issue, but with the bulk of the market being, you know,
buildings that are over 20 yearsold that there's only so
(34:22):
efficient without really cranking the the mechanical
systems. And then you then you're dealing
with the issues associated with,you know, climate issues
relating to too much energy consumption to balance like
everything isn't. It like everything, yeah, yeah,
yeah. How much do you find the, the
sustainability angle sits amongst this?
(34:44):
Because obviously we'd, we'd like to think that, you know,
sustainability sits holisticallywith health and well-being and.
And yeah, you know, they're all singing from the same hymn
sheet. But like you say, you just use
an example where maybe those twothings are, you know, sort of
fighting. Yeah, look, they go hand in
hand. I mean, obviously if we have,
(35:05):
you know, healthy humans as a healthy planet and vice versa,
healthy planet will make healthyhumans.
So I, the, the focus on sustainability in Australia is
getting, it is, you know, reasonable mandatory reporting
of carbon has just commenced. So that now changes the dial,
(35:27):
the focus now we now projects are much more focused, right?
There's two columns on projects now.
We've got the financial column, then we've got the carbon
column. So decisions are not just 100%
based on, I don't know Europe and you guys have been doing it
for a long time, but we're getting there, we're getting on
board now. So but that takes and you
(35:48):
probably have experience of thistoo, it takes time for it to be
better down and become part of everyday business.
So there is and now you know many of the large landlords that
own these commercial assets are you know reporting to their
shareholders. Shareholders, particularly all
the superannuation companies owna lot of these assets.
(36:10):
People are asking questions about their, the environmental
responsibility, the social responsibility.
So it, it's shining a lot more light on it.
There's a much more focus, You know, we, we, we're getting
there and we're making progress.But the issue around there's
still a lot of short term decision making, particularly in
(36:33):
a market where you've got low occupancy, you know, just post
COVID mop up dealing when when you're a landlord and you just
need to get the building fill full, you'll, you know, cut
corners or do whatever's required to make it so rather
than thinking about long term sustainability outcomes.
With, with that sort of point about sort of post COVID that
(36:57):
you just made, how and how have you sort of seen it over the
last couple of years? And obviously we're we're kind
of in this kind of strange period where we're now looking
at pushing workers back into theoffice.
And I suppose it must be being an incredibly kind of
interesting time for you to kindof understand the impact of home
working and now sort of this, you know, this period of now to
(37:19):
the post home working where, youknow, people are dragging their
feet back into the office. And, and I suppose the, the
potential draw or improvement oran improvement on people's
health and well-being by being back in those spaces, you know,
rather than more working flexibly.
Well, it was interesting. I was finishing my, my research,
(37:40):
my PhD, pretty much just in the beginning stretches of COVID,
and there was already some starting some research starting
to appear. And what was unfortunate that
while we people didn't have commute times, they had an extra
hour or two in their day that they weren't replacing that time
with, you know, doing something good for themselves or their
family, you know, walking, doingwhatever with their families or
(38:03):
on their own. They were just replacing it with
more work. So which was a shame because we
had that, that moment to actually, you know, for some
people, they did improve their health outcomes, but most of the
research showed that that didn'thappen.
We didn't replace it with, you know, looking after ourselves.
And I think that now that, you know, we, we're, we're on the
(38:24):
other side of the tired conversation around hybrid, no
hybrid. What are we doing?
More productive, productive. I I feel like that the
conversation has moved to be much more focused on the value
of humans being together in in one space, the value of us being
connected, the value of how ideas and things happen when
(38:49):
people, humans are physically together and recognizing that
being at home while we all did get work done because we had no
choice. Yes, do things got things
happened and life went on because that we're all all in it
together, that it has led to, you know, a lot of issues around
(39:10):
loneliness and disconnection. One of the pieces of research I
spent a bit of time looking at is that blurred line between
work and home that we didn't have before.
That people in, you know, appreciated that time on that on
their commute that they had to themselves.
So for many, that was theirs, their time in the day where they
could tune out, put music on, read a book, whatever they did
(39:32):
before they entered the home environment, they had that
break. They had that stop and start
then when you have a blur, when the line is blurred is then it
was sort of many employers feel like, oh, well, you're, you're
of course you're available all the time now because you're, you
know, so that blurred line does have an impact and it needs to
(39:53):
be really carefully managed and that's a personal responsibility
to, you know, put those boundaries up.
So I and I think the the net outcome will.
And I feel like where we got, where we're settling, it has
made a massive improvement into people's health and well-being
because we can now start to see that you get the benefit of
(40:15):
connection and being together with others a few days a week.
We have the benefit of possibly being at home and having, if
we're depending on our personality, we can have that,
that home environment isn't now extension of the office versus
the other way around. That if we need to do quiet work
and concentrate and disconnect, we have the opportunity to do
(40:37):
that for periods in in a remote environment.
And we can hopefully use those days to focus more on ourselves
where we don't have the commute time.
So the and the other benefit, ofcourse, is that if your work
environment doesn't have the cleanest air or you know, you're
sitting in the dark corner, thatthat you're mitigating any.
(41:00):
If your work environment isn't agrade, you're mitigating it
because you're not there five days a week.
So, you know, and the other way around, some people might be
living in tiny apartments that all places that aren't ideal to
be in five days a week either. So yeah, you're getting the
benefit of both environments, I think where I feel like it's
settling and and will make sensefor everyone.
(41:22):
Do you do you find that that is now also part of the
conversation that you're having with with companies?
Yeah, the health and well-being conversation is, is about that
flexibility inherent and that's have has proven benefits I
suppose. Yeah, I've yes, definitely the
initially the conversation around hybrid working and this
(41:44):
sort of old mandating or no mandating or return to the
office was this conversation around trust.
Oh, I, I I need to have your nervous because I don't trust
you or you, you know, which of course is a fundamental pillar
of any working relationship or whether it's a marriage or an
employee employee, you know, trust is fundamental.
(42:04):
But I've that conversation is now boot moved beyond that.
And yes, people do ask me, OK, what is the to achieved employee
optimal health? What's the right what's the
right balance? What's how many days in, out,
you know? Yeah, what's?
The secret? Yeah, What's the secret?
What's the scientific formula tell you know, I need to know if
my people are in 22 hours a weekthat they're gonna be an optimal
(42:27):
performance, You know, because again, we're dealing with
humans, every humans different. The work that we do, the way we
deal with our managers and the people around us is unique and
every day and is constantly moving.
There's no, there's no magic formula, you know, and then I
think it just comes back to someof those fundamental, you know,
if there is those that trust relationship depending on the
(42:50):
work that you do to isn't most effective.
You know, in the case of design and architecture, it's probably
most effective done for many of us together because you're in
the business of ideas and problem solving.
And again, that can be most effectively done together.
If you're more of a processing type person, you might be, you
know, not being with your colleagues all the time might be
(43:12):
OK for the role you do. So it depends so much on and I
think it's also another big factor around health is life
stage. Depending on where you are in
your career and your, whether you're having families or not
does have a massive impact on what people's commitments are
outside their work. And, and that does, and you
(43:36):
know, a lot of, there's a lot ofconversations in the workshops
that I do around that piece is that people that have high
commitments outside work, whether they're training for the
Olympics, have young children, whatever they're doing, are
often marked down for lack of commitment to the organizational
passion for the job because they're not there 60 hours a
(43:57):
week. But often that's not the case.
They are very passionate, very committed and they're committed
the time that they're there, butthey have a really full life
outside work. So it's really important to, I
think, to recognise that, you know, from that, particularly
that well-being lens. And do you think you you, you
sort of feel that from personal experiences like to spoke about
(44:19):
with your landscape architect career?
And I know personally as an architect with the three kids
and one of them disabled, you know, like it is, you know, life
having, being a full life outside of work is a is an
incredibly difficult thing to manage alongside a creative
career. Totally.
And that's probably Part 1 of the reasons why I put it to the
side in the end, because it just, it didn't align.
(44:40):
And having a husband who was hada really big job, one of us had
to be the primary carer or, you know, be run, be at home, you
know, someone's got to do it. And, you know, at the time, I
found that quite difficult that I sort of had to take step back.
(45:00):
But now what is really fantasticand, and you know, it's good to
know is that I now have young adult children who have actually
said, thanks, mum. We know we, they've recognized
that. They actually say, we know that
you took a step back. We know that you made career
choices, you know, putting us atthe front.
(45:23):
At the time it's not that easy to do that, but now I'm glad I
did do it. I remind my children to say that
to their mother, and they're when they're.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, they'll probably they'll, you know, it's a, it's a, you
know, at the end of the day, when you leave the planet, it's
not about the job that you had. It's the, you know, the legacy
of your children or other legacies that will you'll be
(45:44):
remembered for. So I suppose that's if you
really step back and look at your career as part of, you
know, yourself on the planet, planet, that's what it probably
counts more. With that, with that in mind,
and you've, you've wrapped her up quite nicely in a bow.
Looking at your career journey, what, what do you think those
key lessons that you found are? And I suppose obviously talking
(46:06):
to you has been, you know, fascinating and, and you've had
lots of different career points and obviously, you know, you're,
you're our first doctor. That's that's been on the show.
What, what, what do you think are those kind of key lessons
that you can take away from fromthat sort of that wiggly career
path you've taken? I suppose never stop learning
(46:29):
and I know I'm probably on the extreme end that I've, you know,
done so much formal study, but Ithrive on that.
I really enjoy the OR just learning and just hearing
different things in different perspectives and going in
different directions. And I suppose it, what it gives
you is you get a really good sense of how things are put
(46:54):
together and in a much more broader context.
And you can, I mean, even if youstudy one path, of course you
can understand life from different perspectives, But it,
I suppose it, it's given me that.
But I do also admire people thathave done, you know, have
studied a particular vocation and done that because they
(47:16):
become absolute experts in theirgame.
You know, when you see architects that have been
architects for 30 years, they are really, really good.
They're really, really and, and,and sometimes any career, it's
the what makes you good at it isactually just longevity, like
doing it for a long time. There's a lot of stuff as you
(47:38):
know as a practising architect that you just couldn't.
You just can't know without experience with time.
Yeah, without doing it, without living it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I think that, yeah, never
stop learning. And whether that's on the job
learning, you know, having an open mindset is really
(47:58):
fundamental, particularly in themodern world.
You, you'll be left behind if you, you know, you really need
to anything that comes at you, any amount of change, go with
change. Change is good.
Keep a normal mindset that will help you, you know, get through
anything that's presented to youthat might seem really difficult
or you know, different to the way you think.
(48:21):
On the other side, there will besome valuable learning and it
will open a door or another another pathway for sure.
Yeah, I think that's the sort ofbeautiful mindset to kind of see
change and challenge as a sort of positive and something to
thrive on rather than, you know,being scared of it sort of
thing. Yeah.
(48:41):
With all of this in mind, has your has your career unfolded in
a way that you could have imagined or had any element of
planning to? No, in a nutshell, I mean.
That's OK. That's not a yeah.
Yeah, Yeah. That's not a right answer.
I suppose when, yeah, maybe whenI was younger I was quite
(49:02):
focused on, you know, really having a quite a clear pathway
and progressing step up and you know, managing this and and
growing and developing. But that's how I saw the growing
and developing by moving up, whereas I've probably moved
about and found that equally as rewarding and enriching.
(49:25):
So yeah, I think that any pathway doesn't need to
necessarily. And for some people that is
important, moving up, having more people, more responsibility
that is important to them. But I, I started out probably
with that intention and then have just enjoyed the different
path, even though I feel like there is a common thread
(49:48):
throughout it the exactly your question at the beginning around
focusing on people. But yeah, I, I think that it's,
it's all interesting. It's all learning.
It's all sort of part of work and part of life.
And and with that in mind, what's what's next?
(50:08):
What is next? Look, I feel like I'm at a place
now where I can actually fully commit to the work that I'm
doing again now that I'm on the other side of children, that I
had my capacity to think. It's amazing when you don't have
family logistics operating, you know, when you're not operating
(50:29):
a whole, you know, universe. You had a good night's sleep as
well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You get a good night's sleep. You can think straight.
You can actually think much deeper for much more longer
periods of time. You're not disrupted.
So I feel like it's focusing, Yeah, more of the same and
really becoming a true expert inwhen it comes to how, how the
(50:52):
environment does impact people'sand the workplace does impact
people's health and well-being. And that's just through, again,
more some of it's rate, just formal research, some of it's
connecting, it's doing projects.Every project that you do, you
learn something. So I feel like it's, and of
course, yeah, a little bit of, you know, a bit more fun not
(51:12):
working. I don't need to work 60 hours.
I'm doing a more, I'm actually starting to do a lot more local
volunteering, which again, is really enriching.
I haven't had the capacity to dothat.
So I love the fact that I can connect with my community that I
haven't been able to do before. So yeah, I think really focusing
(51:34):
in on where my skill set is now and yeah, community having some
other interests outside work that don't.
Yeah, it's not just all work. Kirsten, thank you so much for
joining me. Absolutely fascinating
conversation and hopefully lots to take away from that.
Yeah. Well, thank you.
You've had it's really interesting questions too.
(51:55):
So yeah. Hopefully.
Yeah, no. Well, you know, this is
obviously something that you're really interested and passionate
about. And Eddie, I'm sure Eddie is
really interesting from your perspective, hearing all, all
the different stories that people have to tell.
Exactly. Perfect.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
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