August 12, 2025 • 53 mins
The numbers aren’t great. Women in architecture are still paid less, promoted less, and leaving the profession at higher rates than men. It’s not unique to architecture, but there’s plenty of work to do. According to a Bespoke Careers report, the gender pay gap in Australia sits at 20.6% — nearly triple that of the UK and US. Angela Dapper has seen those realities up close, and has made it her mission to be the change she wants to see in the industry. Over a career in Melbourne and London with Grimshaw, Architectus and Denton Corker Marshall, she’s led landmark projects like the Stonehenge Visitor Centre, Aesop Store and Oxford Botanic Gardens Glasshouses. She’s mentored emerging architects, challenged industry norms, and built a reputation for making her voice count in rooms where women are still underrepresented.Now she’s stepping away from big practice to start her own socially sustainable studio on her own terms. This conversation explores the reality of being a woman in architecture and what it takes to create a career that truly works for you.0:00 – Introduction1:09 – What keeps Angela in architecture4:15 – Gender bias and the uphill battle in the 90s5:47 – Leaving Australia for opportunities in London7:17 – Designing the Stonehenge Visitor Centre12:22 – Lessons from working in three major practices15:41 – Leading diversity initiatives at Grimshaw17:55 – Why Angela moved from DCM to Grimshaw20:50 – Choosing the right practice for you22:26 – Why many senior women are leaving architecture24:05 – Starting her own socially sustainable studio27:59 – Making small projects high impact30:49 – Listening and adapting to community clients31:50 – Why she started her business later in her career34:22 – Returning to Australia as an architect36:41 – The value of panels, mentoring and professional networks40:13 – Gender equity in architecture today45:06 – Angela's experiences with gender discrimination47:19 – Advice for young architects finding their voice50:17 – Has her career turned out as expected?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
There's an awful statistic. I think it's 30% of women going
through menopause will leave their jobs.
That's 30% of senior women. I remember being on site rate
one of our projects with a grad and they were asking him
questions because he's the guy and you're just like, Oh my God.
Angela Dapper is a British architect living in Melbourne.
She runs her own studio, focusing on socially sustainable
(00:20):
architecture that enhances localcommunities and enriches lives.
Across Angela's career, she's worked for a number of prominent
practices within the UK and Australia, leading major project
and working as an advocate for diversity within the
architecture profession. I find it really uncomfortable,
the space of people doing socialhousing yet taking a profit from
things that are community based and necessary.
Part of what I'm setting up in my business is to set it up so
(00:43):
the profit then get rolled back into people and community to
create a cycle where it perpetuates, you know, better
outcomes for everybody. Why did you become an architect?
I think I chose to be an architect by about the age of
1213. And then I was like really
stubborn because so many people went, oh, you want to be an
architect? Well, you, you can't do that.
Oh, you're a girl. You'd hate it.
All of those comments that may be more determined to just go,
(01:05):
no, watch me do this. Angela, thanks so much for
joining me. Thanks for having me.
So just getting straight into it, why?
Why architecture? What is it about a career in
architecture that keeps you getting up in the morning?
You know, what is it about beingan architect that you really
kind of align with? I'm, I think for me, I mean, I
(01:30):
kind of feel that that that question would be answered
differently by every single person in architecture.
And I think that's probably the best thing about architecture.
It's just so broad. Like, you know, you're an
architect and you're doing podcasts, you know, like when
talking about architecture, we do architecture.
I, I feel that it's so broad that at any one point in time
you can be doing a different role in architecture.
(01:51):
And I think that's what keeps megoing is the diversity of
architecture itself keeps an interesting.
No, I, I completely aligned withthat.
I think obviously there are the,the unglamorous sides of it,
like area schedules, which I seem to hate.
But yeah, I think you're right that that sort of variety is,
is, is the real value piece. And maybe it is that thing of
(02:13):
when you're stuck in your early career, when, you know, if
you're on a large project, for example, and you're, you know,
designing the toilets, maybe youdon't always feel that variety,
but it does come. It is a, you know, a marvellous
kind of part of the career. What would you say is your kind
of route into architecture? Why, you know, why did you
become an architect? And was there something in your
(02:34):
sort of early upbringing and family life that kind of led you
to this career path? It's a really interesting
question because like, I didn't know I I grew up in a small
country town. I didn't know any architects or
anything about architecture, butbut I did know that I like
drawing. I really like drawing, I love
drawing buildings. So like I was very much into
(02:54):
drawing perspectives during elevations and for no, no
apparent reason loved doing maths, but loved the kind of and
I think a lot of architects are quite instead of being on the
creative side and more process driven.
So I love like the idea of putting things together in
process. So for me, like something in a
career in physics on maths was kind of where I was always
(03:16):
going. And I think I chose to be an
architect by about the age of 1213.
I was really young and then I was like really stubborn because
so many people went, oh, you want to be an architect?
Well, you can't do that. And there was all of that, oh,
you're a girl. You'd hate it.
Like and I was just, you know, it was all of those comments
that made me more determined to just go, no, I'm doing it, watch
(03:40):
me do this. So there was nothing kind of in
particular. I think it was just like all of
those things I enjoyed doing, I wanted to keep doing.
I kind of thought it was more about drawing and all of those
lovely things. But as we know that, you know,
there's a lot more to architecture.
That's a small part of the role.But but no, there was nothing
kind of in particular probably came out of stubbornness of me,
(04:02):
you know, people saying that it wasn't right for me and me going
no, yeah, I'm doing it like I will show you.
And I and I think I've probably kept that.
That's probably a key part of mycareer is just literally being a
little bit stunned. I mean, how did, how did that
sort of continue through your kind of university days?
Was was it always you feeling like you were fighting a little
bit of an uphill battle against the system?
(04:24):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think so.
I was at university in the 90s and I mean the, it, it was a
very different time. And so even in that time, I
think we, we almost started out 5050 in terms of gender at the
start of architecture. By the end of it, I think it, we
were like the numbers of women were down to 25%.
(04:46):
You know, there was, you start my first job, I got paid less
than someone else who graduated from my university with lower
marks than me. I got paid less.
And I was like, what are you talking about?
So I think always that's kind ofin your mind, you're like,
sorry, like, I don't know, I'm too practical a person to kind
of understand why that happens. But when I saw that happened,
(05:08):
that was kind of, you know, yeah, I hated that.
And so that was not an uphill battle, but kind of, yeah,
definitely a bit of a battle or something there that you just
kind of go, no, like, I'm not doing that.
I'm not going to part. I'm not going to take part in
this kind of unequal profession.I'm here to do this equally,
like you've got to let me do it.So there was always a bit of
(05:31):
that, I think throughout my career and I, I kind of hope
that it's a bit better now. But the.
But yeah, definitely in the 90s,it wasn't a great place for
young, young female architects in, in Australia and in London.
Yeah. Just just on that, on that, the
sort of Australian London divide, what was it about?
(05:52):
So, so you were educated in Australia and then came to
London. What was the What was the drawer
of London? The there, I think it was just
opportunity. So I think it was always
Australia always feels a little bit on the other side of the
world and I think because it's separate from so other
countries. So in the other countries you
always feel a little bit separate.
So when you're studying and you know, you're studying
(06:14):
architecture, well, you know, you're studying global
architecture and global architects, but then you feel
quite removed. So I worked in Australia for a
couple of years and then, and I was, and, and this was the 90s
and I was doing 3D visualizations and, and fly
threes, which no one was kind ofdoing, which meant I was doing
like loads of them. So I spent a lot of time just
(06:37):
doing 3D models, which I, I kindof felt wasn't where I wanted to
be. So I took it off my CV said I
couldn't do it and then moved toLondon and then actually did
some like technical detailing and, you know, kind of really
felt like I got into architecture.
So it was about opportunities. And I think, you know, for me
coming from Australia, London was a place of opportunities
(06:58):
where they didn't ask, you know,it's, you're from another
country. They don't ask you which
university you go to, which theydo, you know, if you're from the
UK, they definitely do that in the UK.
But but because I came from another country, I was very much
taken on by merit, which I whichI loved.
So for me it was about opportunities.
I know you spent a long time at Denton Call commercial, which
(07:20):
instantly our Australian practice and, and your time on
the the Stonehenge Visitor Centre, which obviously was a
incredibly prominent project in the UK.
You know, lots of attention around that.
I wonder whether you would spenda little bit of time just
reflecting on that and your experience because I mean,
(07:40):
obviously that must have been incredibly complex, incredibly
sort of drawn out negotiating with different stakeholders and
you know, an amazingly sort of sensitive project which you
know, I know has won awards and you won awards for for your
participation in. Yeah, really, really difficult,
really complex. A lot of a lot of interested
parties. Sorry that you know, the list of
(08:01):
stakeholders, you know, was I think I think all the
stakeholders that we had to kindof go back to every time we had
a design update. I think we had like over 100 or
something, you know, it was amazing the amount of people
interested parties that proper interest as well, not just, you
know, interested. They were a part of the project
the and also don't forget there was so many failed schemes
(08:24):
before this one. So, you know, we had other
architects at one point. I remember an architect, quite a
prominent architect rang up and went, you know, I know you've
just won this, but it probably won't go ahead.
Why are you caught? Why are you calling me to tell
me that we're going to fail? Like no.
And so I mean, it was a really interesting one because it it,
(08:47):
it was hard. There was a lot of visibility,
there was a lot of decision making.
It changed locations a number oftimes.
A lot of people had a view of what it should look like.
You know, it's at Stonehenge. It should be heavy and grounded.
And it's just like, and we did something kind of light and it's
kind of the opposite of what people expected.
But yeah, so a lot of people hada lot of opinions and there was,
(09:09):
it was quite a long road to, to get it through planning,
through, you know, the stakeholder consultation,
etcetera. There were so many points where
it could have failed. And I think it's what for me,
it's a really great example of alot of people coming together to
make this work. The clients were amazing.
Do you know some of the, some ofthe, some of the curators, like
(09:34):
from the archaeologists were amazing.
You know, some of the architectsI worked with them consultants
were amazing. You know, they all had a part in
getting it through the kind of complexity of some of the
processes we had to go through. But the other thing that was
brilliant about this, so it was designed by Barry Marshall from
Dendeco Commercial, who, you know, did lots of beautiful
(09:54):
pencil sketches. He had a really clear vision of
what it should be like, really light on the landscape,
something that was kind of opposite of what Stonehenge is,
which is heavy and seeped in history.
So it wanted to be lights, you know, something that people pass
straight to go and visit the stones, that kind of clarity of
vision, hold it together for thewhole project that we were
(10:15):
designing furniture with that inmind.
We were designing, you know, allthe materials, you know about
the sustainability, the structure, everything with that
in mind. So it was really from a kind of
design process perspective, likean amazing example of how to do
design thinking in a really clear way to the point that when
(10:35):
it started on site, the contractor did a speech for all
the people working on site to talk about how you know what the
design vision was. I've never heard a contractor
talk about design vision. I listened to it because I
thought, oh, this will be interesting.
I wonder what they got it. But it was so simple that they
got it. And I was like, that's it, isn't
it? It's a simplicity of something
(10:56):
that you just go, all right, that's it.
I know what screws to pick. I know what that window detail
is. I know what the furniture is
like, you know, everyone was kind of on board with a singular
vision. And I think that's, that was a
kind of really lovely cohesion of that project, which meant
that because we were doing the visitor centre, we were also
doing the roundabouts and the roads and the, you know, the
(11:17):
path around Stonehenge because loads of work beyond the visitor
centre. But it pulled it all kind of
together. So it was which made it low key.
So everything was low key because everything was kind of
under the same kind of principle.
But nothing was jarring. You don't see it's like under
designed, which is really, yeah,really nice, but I think a
really good example of a whole lot of people coming together to
(11:39):
do that. But but yeah, I spent five years
on that project. It was like another child.
You know you. Just yeah, yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, that is the crazy thing with people coming into
architecture. It's just the amount of time
that it takes. You know, it's, you know, none
of us kind of get into it for the the sort of the fast track
sort of thing. You know, architecture and
particularly good architecture takes a lot of time.
(12:02):
Yeah. I mean, you, you reflected on
the sort of clarity, your visionand stuff.
And I think, like you say, that is such an incredible kind of
skill and, and something that architects can be particularly
good at, you know, guiding that sort of the big idea guiding
that concept through presumably is, is that something you've
kind of taken through with you into your sort of further
career? Because I, I know you've held,
(12:23):
you know, you've held very senior positions in, you know,
three major practices, you know,DCA and Grimshaw.
And is it architectors you? Architectors, yeah.
Yeah, you know, very senior positions in that and and you
know, I'd, I'd love to kind of understand those those skill
sets that you kind of have used and and grown over time, you
(12:45):
know, being in those positions. It's a, It's an interesting one
to kind of compare them because they're all different.
I think the scale makes things different because like the sheer
amount. So DCM I think we had at one
point we had 50 people. We were generally about 30
people. Quite often we're about 20.
(13:06):
So I think when I left DCM in London, we're about 1520 people.
We weren't big. And I think there's something
different about how you communicate in that kind of way
because there's less communication.
What I also took for granted, because I was there for such a
long time, I kind of grew into that role.
And so you kind of, you know, you know what you're doing, you
know your context and your surrounds and all the people
(13:28):
you're working with and you kindof grow into the role that's
there. And so I think that's quite a
different way of being a leader when you kind of grow and a lot
of people kind of grow into their, into their roles through
promotion. And I think it's quite, quite a
normal way of doing it. But you know, everything around
you, it's quite, you don't thinkabout it.
And I think when you kind of leave that kind of role, you,
(13:51):
you realize you took so much forgranted.
So the, the culture at DCM in London was amazing and so
chilled out and we discussed everything openly and everyone
was really supported. And you kind of take that as
being normal, but then you go toother practices and you realize
it's not normal. Or some people actually have to
work really hard on their culture to make it work.
(14:11):
So I think there's different, different things.
So yeah, DCM was an interesting one because I was there for so
long that I kind of grew into the role.
But then I became a partner and realised that, you know,
obviously you don't, you only know what you know from your
previous role. So I got a coach at that.
Point. Yeah.
And just went, OK, I need to learn, I need to know what I'm
(14:33):
doing. So when I do this role, I do it
well. So I don't want to just do it.
I just want to know what are theother options?
How do I do this well, how do I?How do I excel in this role?
So I got a coach, which I would highly recommend to everyone.
Yeah, it's brilliant just to hone your skills and learn all
those things about business thatyou don't get taught as an
architect. And you kind of learn along the
(14:55):
way. But when you learn it along the
way, you learn one way of doing things.
So learning, you know, from a broad selection of, you know,
how people are doing it in the marketplace, you know, what are
other options? How can we challenge what we're
doing? I think was great.
Then I moved to Grimshaw. Grimshaw was 320 people, which
was one of the reasons I moved is I wanted a new challenge and
(15:20):
I wanted to to understand what big looked like.
I kind of thought maybe I'd likea big big practice.
And so I just wanted to try it as well, just to see, try,
emphasize. And I think that's a nice thing
for for people to do in their careers.
Try a few things just to see what works.
Grimshaw was 320 people and so that meant because people were
(15:43):
always coming in and things werekind of always moving around
with different projects, they really worked hard on their
culture but had a fantastic office culture.
So for me, part of what I was doing there was, you know,
running projects, you know, doing my kind of principal role,
but also doing cultural roles. So I was head of their diversity
group and did a lot of work. So I was already doing work
(16:05):
around gender, but they're doingwork around gender in a big
practice is different because you know, it's 320 people,
you're always working at it, you're working with people, but
you're also you have to be really open to listen to what
people are saying. And I think that was really
because when they're really focused on culture, it meant
that they could focus on having these opportunities to listen
(16:25):
back to their staff, what's going on, what works?
How do we get the best teams together?
How do we get you all working well together?
And I think that's really important in architecture
because I think a lot of conversations about
architecture, we're always talking about long hours and low
pay. There are some people doing it
(16:47):
really well. So, you know, I think we need to
talk about those great examples of where people are doing it
really well. And I think when you kind of
move between offices, you can see what works and what doesn't,
but it works for the office, it might work for the scale and it
might work differently for different people as well.
And I think that's what we need to kind of acknowledge.
(17:08):
So, so for me that worked, you know, that scale kind of worked.
But I think in terms of leadership, and my kind of take
away from that is that, you know, the way that I lead teams
in in all three, like DCM, Grimshaw and architectures, was
really kind of focusing down on the people that you work with.
I think that's, that's everything, isn't it, for a
(17:30):
service industry. We work with people.
It's just like, how do you how do you get those people to
really work together? Well, So I think so that all of
those are quite similar, but youknow, as a leader, you kind of
doing the same thing. You really like creating
projects. You know, you're, you're working
with people, you're, you're dealing with clients.
I think they're already similar,but you know, but they're just
(17:50):
different scales and slightly different approaches for
different projects. Obviously, obviously, you know,
like you say, lead being a partner in a, a practice of 300
plus people is an incredibly kind of, you know, intimidating
sounding sounding thing. And, and particularly with you
coming from, you know, DCM, which was, which is a lot
smaller, what was it that that that led to that move and, and
(18:11):
that sort of ambition? Was it, was it lit?
Was it just about trying something else?
I mean, you know, because obviously lots of people reach
that sort of mid career point, have a little bit of a bobble
and, and kind of, you know, consider different career paths.
And, you know, I've, I've had somany, you know, friends and
colleagues that have have kind of moved in different directions
at that point, you know, to things outside of architecture.
(18:32):
And, and, you know, we hear so much about people moving outside
of architecture because of theirfrustration.
So, you know, it'd be interesting to sort of
understand that sort of career point and that sort of milestone
in your life. Well, I mean, that was an
interesting one because I mean, I could have stayed at DCMI,
felt like I could have stayed there forever.
And for me, I found that a difficult concept because, like,
(18:54):
I can't sit still very long. And the idea of going this is
it. Like, you know, I think I can't
remember how old I was at the time.
Maybe I was about 40 when I became a partner.
And I was like, oh. And everyone was like,
congratulations, that must be amazing for you.
And I was literally like, I'm atthe top now.
(19:15):
I really felt that it was. Yeah.
You kind of get somewhere. Like you've had this journey to
get somewhere and then you're there and you're like, oh, I
can't do this for the next like 25 years.
Like, you know, and it was fabulous and I loved it and it
was a great place, but I needed more and I want to learn.
So I just wanted to understand. So for me, it was about people.
(19:35):
So I was, I wasn't necessarily interested in working at
Grimshaw, but they approached meat one point and also said that
they would make a role for me. And I found that really
interesting. It's like, do what you do at
DCM, Just do it over here. So you're like, OK, I can do
that. I can just.
And it was really interesting. Interesting because they wanted
me and I think that's quite different to applying for a role
(19:59):
where you have to fit a role. And that's what, which is kind
of what I did in Australia actually.
So I worked at architectures where I I applied and I got a
role and the for me that was really uncomfortable because
they weren't looking for me and everything that I had to bring,
it was a role that I had to fulfil.
And I was like, that's not. How I work so, so the kind of
(20:23):
change, I think one of my friends said once like about
that time, she said, actually you realize you get to a point
where it's not about the work, it's about your everyday.
Like do you want to walk into that office every day?
And you're like, yeah, you know,it has to be a 7 out of 10 to
kind of get you in. It doesn't have to be a 10 out
(20:44):
of 10 all the time, but it has to kind of, it can't be like a
four. But yeah.
So for me it was about people like, do I want to be around
these people? Is this how I work?
It's this, you know, does it tickle my boxes in terms of what
I want out of a career? So, yeah.
So it kind of made sense for me to move to Grimshaw at times
because there's so much learningin it, which I, which I loved
(21:06):
and I love the opportunities it gave me as well.
Big practice is great. Like, you know, there's there's
money to to invest in courses and people and there's so many
other things that come with big practice that so there's
opportunities. Yeah, I really enjoy.
Yeah, it is a fascinating kind of thing because, you know, I
have so many conversations with young architects and, you know,
at the beginning of their careers, they're always asking
(21:27):
those sort of questions of, you know, should I go for a small
practice? Should I go for a big practice?
What are the experiences like and things like that?
And yeah, I think that's the thing.
It's just like trying, like you say, you know, trying those
different things because they are so different.
You know, just like the, the job, everyday job of an
architect is so different, you know, working in different
practices are so different. You know, I've worked in small
practices, medium sized practices and very big
(21:49):
practices. And you know, the, the, the
general process is probably a little bit similar.
But like you say, you know, they're, they're just incredibly
different environments. And, and yeah, getting a sort of
taste of those is, is kind of a wonderful part of the sort of
career journey. Yeah.
And, and I think you kind of have views of different ones as
well. So you kind of go, oh, I think
I'm a big practice person. And then you kind of go, well,
(22:11):
actually, but this big practice is not right for me or it's
about timing as well, right. It's it was right for me then,
it's not right for me now. So you know, yeah, it's a it's a
really important. Yeah, it's really interesting
because I think it's kind of, it's got me, I've done a lot of
different things. So, you know, I've done
airports, I've done like Stonehenge, you know, done Aesop
(22:33):
stores. I've done like, you know, all
different scales, all different things.
But I think what it does is it kind of gets you to a point.
So now, you know, so now I'm here and they kind of like
actually and, and and like, yeah, six months ago.
So actually I don't want to do this anymore.
And, and then it's an interesting one because I think
a lot of people kind of get to where I'm at now.
(22:53):
And, and actually a lot of senior women I know are leaving,
become client side, you know, become consultants.
They do other things because you're just like, actually like,
I don't, I don't want to be putting a whole lot of work in,
putting my heart into something I don't believe in.
So it's just like, what does that look like now?
So, so that's why I kind of stepped back and went, all
(23:14):
right, I'm, I'm out. I don't want to be part of this
at the moment. I want to take my skills and I
want to somehow strip back the levels of process and the levels
of hierarchy and and get back tobeing a hands on architect and
(23:37):
all the kind of things you love,but be able to do it and bring
that kind of value of your experience to people that really
need it. So you just like, actually I
could be doing work for directlywith, with people who are, you
know, need social and affordablehousing or they need kind of
community projects and bring that value to their projects and
(24:00):
bring that design and that expertise.
And that will have a bigger impact than what I'm doing
sometimes as a small, small cog in a big, bigger company in a
big wheel because you can just strip back all the process.
So that's what I'm looking at doing now is, is really looking
at seeing whether it's seeing whether it's possible.
I haven't quite nailed it yet tostrip back all those layers and
(24:23):
just be a hands on architect andjust bring that expertise and
value to kind of small scale projects.
With, with that in mind, what are the, I mean, obviously just
the context. Obviously you, you, you worked
in London for a long period of time.
Now I've returned to Australia and now starting your, your own
practice. What are those lessons that
(24:44):
you're taking with you, you know, what is, what is the value
proposition that you're making? And, and I suppose just for
context again, your, your, your new practice is focused on sort
of, you know, socially sustainable architecture,
working with communities and, and things like that.
How you know, how transferable, how transferable are all those
skills from airports and, and visitor centres to, to that sort
(25:08):
of thing? And and I think it's probably a
a leading question, but you knowthat clarity of of design idea
and the architect is the sort ofcollaborator and negotiator that
you kind of mentioned previously.
Yeah, well, I, I mean, I think they all lead into it and it's
really interesting when people think they and actually they
talk about it a lot more in in Australia than in London.
(25:30):
They talk about sectors and you just like actually when you're
an architect, the thinking that you might put into a hotel, you
might put into a school, you might put into, you know, like
you do a visitor centre, you might also do, you know, so I
was doing another project for the Botanic Gardens, you know,
so it's all about visitors and flows and movement of people and
(25:52):
how they experience space. So I think those lessons you can
take from anywhere. So, so smaller projects, I mean,
I think in terms of the design experience, I, I mean, for me
it's all transferable. So it's all about design
thinking. If you understand how people
move through space, you understand how people find joy
in space. So if you understand light and
(26:14):
scale and and movement, I think you know it all kind of
transfers. I think the business of
architecture is an interesting one because I've always been
interested in the business of architecture.
So that's a whole part of setting up your own practice,
which is, you know, something you don't do in big practice.
That's something I did at DCM because it's much smaller, so
(26:35):
it's more hands on. So that so the skills that I got
from running a business in DCMI can bring over some of the
skills from like Stonehenge. I think it was so transferable
because it's all about people and movement, but you know,
building and understanding building, you know, that's
always, always transferable intothis kind of space.
But I think as well, when you'vebeen quite senior, the way you
(26:57):
talk, the way you win work, the way you talk about work and the
way you can actually communicatea design idea, That kind of
clarity is something that peoplemiss when they're actually
talking about these smaller projects, which is why I was
really interested in going into these smaller projects because I
think I don't, I don't know, yousee these architects like doing
(27:17):
these like small, beautiful projects and you're like, what
are you doing? Like why they got like someone
straight out of uni when they could have someone like, you
know, they could have a fantastic project who you really
missed it. And sometimes it's literally
about the cost. So you just like, OK, they think
the cost of an architect doesn'tstack up.
But if you can make that value work, why can't you bring that
value and the expertise to actually do something really
(27:40):
effective and impactful in the right areas?
But yeah, so, so it, it should work.
In theory it should work. So we'll see.
It needs a bit of time to, to get, to get going.
But, but I think for me to set this up and do it in this way,
but also set up a culture that Iwant to set up and the culture
that I want to work in, I think for me is really important.
(28:04):
But and, and the, and the last big.
So part of it is about projects and part of it's like how you do
the projects. So, so part of it is like doing
community projects, but not taking I, I find it really
uncomfortable the space of people doing social housing, yet
taking a profit from that. I don't think things that are
community based and, and necessary we should be taking a
(28:27):
profit from. So, you know, you said part of
what I'm setting up in my business is to set it up so the
profits then get rolled back into people and community to
create a cycle where perpetuates, you know, better
outcomes for everybody. Yeah, fascinating.
What what is it about those projects that draw you to it?
Is it is it about that sort of that education piece?
(28:48):
Because obviously a lot of the people that you're probably
going to be working with don't probably talk the same, you
know, architect language that maybe some of the, you know,
more developer LED things in London.
We're doing, you know, how much,how much you kind of see
yourself as a guide on that process.
And, and you know, probably someof those skills from negotiating
and collaborating, you know, howdoes that all kind of fit in
(29:11):
into these sorts of projects, I suppose.
Well, I, I mean, it's an interesting one because I think
you almost have to smarter because you have to understand
the questions they're asking. So you have to listening is such
a, you know, massive skill in this space because it is, it is
new. These are new clients.
I think the other thing to kind of reflect on is that a lot of
(29:35):
people, a lot of the clients areactually, you know, similar
women or similar people to me where, you know, they have been
building professionals, They have gone, Oh my God, my career
is just too much. I've had enough.
I want to go and do something that's more rewarding.
So they are kind of leading these these practices, you know,
(29:56):
and they sorry, these clients, client bodies for social and
affordable housing or, you know,for kindergums or for, you know,
community projects. So actually you do find these
people who are similar in mind and similar looking for
something more kind of fulfilling as as a professional,
as a building professional. So actually there's a quite a
lot of similar people who understand what it is as
architects that we're selling. So I think, you know, the
(30:18):
language thing, you have to be careful and just understand who
you're speaking to, but and understand that actually
different government, particularly government bodies
or community bodies have different funding requirements.
So the shape of projects and processes have to reflect that.
So actually selling something back to them that actually fits
in with what they need rather than kind of saying this is what
(30:39):
we do, this is how we do it. You go, OK, what do you need?
How do we do that? How do we get the funding to
work? How do we move to the next
stage? You know, can we just do some
sketches to get this going? Like what does that, what does
that look like? So I think pausing, listening
and really understanding clientsto kind of work with them for
what they need. So it's kind of shared outcomes.
(31:01):
I think that's that's the important, that's the important
part. So kind of similar.
Yeah, it's all similar for architecture, you know, that we
do. But I kind of feel that it's
just more hands on and it's justmore, you know, there's an input
just to make this work, you haveto make it work.
You can't just sit there and go,oh, just look at a catalog and
get some blah, blah, blah out and draw it on a page.
(31:23):
It's like, no, this is real. These are kids that will
otherwise be on the street. Can you just get this, make it
safe, make it beautiful, get light in.
But you know, it may has to be cheap and cheerful here to get
this to work. So it's yeah, it's so it's
great. So the impetus is there.
But I think as well, you kind ofget to a point where you just
want to have a nice legacy. So you don't want to be working,
I don't know, in a big practice doing kind of big things.
(31:46):
You just like, actually I just want to leave my career doing
lovely stuff. So why, why, why now then what
is it, you know, having having spent, you know, a long time at
these larger practices, you know, building up, you know,
very big projects and building up lots of experience.
Why, why start on on your own now?
(32:06):
Why not 20 years ago? You know what, what is it about
this point in your career? You know, you mentioned the sort
of frustrations and stuff earlier, but you know, I'd love
to kind of peek behind the curtain of that.
Well, the I mean, it's, it's an interesting one because I kind
of feel that anyone that's doingthis kind of thing that I'm
doing at the moment, you know, is in their 20s and just
finishing uni. Like it's a funny time to be a
(32:28):
start off because you're like just starting.
But you know, I'm kind of end ofthe other end of the career.
But but it when, if not now, when?
And I think that that's a good question.
So COVID was was interesting point.
But for me and my family, we were, I think for everyone in
we're in London, like, you know,there's quite a lot of time for
(32:50):
reflection. Like what are we doing?
So, so it was just after COVID, we decided to move to Australia
because we were like, we want tomove If we don't go now, when,
when you don't do this now, likelife's short.
Like what are we doing? Like we want a different
(33:10):
lifestyle for our kids. We'd always, always talked about
going to Australia. So we're like, if we don't do
this now, I've got nothing to lose.
If we don't, if we didn't like it, if we don't like it, we can
move back. You know, it's not, it's not a
big deal. Like see on the side of the
world. But you know, we'll, you know,
we'll make it work and we love it.
I think the same attitude kind of applied to my career.
(33:32):
I was like, I don't want to be kind of sitting around going
what if like, you know, what if so I kind of always thought I
would go out on my own at some point and toyed with it a few
times. And then it's like, look, I
don't do this now. When, when do you do it?
You know, I'm 50 now. Like when do you, you know, I
can, I can put a good 15 years in and do something and do
(33:55):
something at my own, in my own pace, you know, in my own way.
And then, you know, and this is the kind of, you know, my last
kind of phase of my career, although I'm still open to to
changing that because I think changing it up is also exciting.
So never say never just having that sort of that approach and
that mindset, isn't it, You know, if opportunities come
(34:16):
along, we'll we'll look at them and and you know, you don't hold
too much weight to things and you you're a bit flexible with
them. How was that process moving back
to Australia as an architect? I know, I know, you had to sort
of. Is it the transfer, the sort of
registration of your final architecture degree?
You don't, you don't need to. So surprisingly a lot of people
aren't registered in Australia. Well, less, yeah, less so than
(34:40):
in in the UK. So when people come from
overseas, they don't necessarilydo it.
But the mutual recognition opened last year.
So I took the opportunity to to take that rate.
They also what it did for me. So the main difference, the
architecture is very similar here, just got different words.
(35:03):
So yeah, you know, every, Yeah. And it's really hard to, to
remember the words, you know, even like I, I swear every
second day I'm Googling what's VAT in Australia, What's VAT?
Do you know? It just doesn't always sink in
because it's the terms of the same, same, same, just
different. But so doing that meant that I
(35:23):
had to do an application, you have to do an interview.
So it's like in your part three interview and I was plus 3
examiner for like 10-12 years. So all of a sudden I'm on the
other side of the table. So I was like, Oh my God, I have
to prepare for this. I know how serious this is.
So yeah, I definitely got down and I was swatting to get.
So I'm glad I did it because I really kind of had to refresh
(35:46):
all these things in my mind and understand the differences.
It's kind of really similar to the UK.
It's just different, very different terms.
So it's just remembering what they are.
But besides that, I think culturally there's a few
differences in, in, in practice.So sometimes science I feel a
(36:08):
little bit more empowered here. Whereas in the A, you know, in
the UK, an architect has a role and you go and do it.
Whereas in Australia, they very much will tell you what they
want and you just like, oh, OK, you're like, yeah, but I can
give you this. And, and they're like, what this
(36:29):
is. So it's, it's a little bit more
prescribed. So it's a slightly different
different balance of working which is slightly uncomfortable,
but otherwise the same, same same.
You mentioned about being a Part3 examiner.
I know you've had lots of different experiences, you know,
in, in your London career being involved in numerous sort of
(36:51):
bodies, panels, groups, things like that.
How I mean, how have they sort of impacted on your career and
sort of what opportunities have come from them?
And I suppose the the crux is, you know, how much would you
encourage other people in their careers to become involved in
those things that you know, you've been passionate about?
(37:12):
Oh, I mean, I would, I definitely would.
And I think for me, it kind of comes down to that gender.
So it's, you know, so when, whenI started, yeah, when I started
architecture, like it was a bit more challenging and I had
amazing mentors and role models.So do you know, so I always
wanted to kind of give back a little.
So that's why I started kind of working with universities, doing
(37:33):
Part 3, mentoring, doing those kind of roles.
I felt that that was kind of part of what I could give
people. So, you know, and I, yeah, so I
was always part of kind of groups for women in
architecture. And then I joined the the RIBA
group for Architects for Change,the diversity group, which was
great, and then was on the Reba Council.
(37:57):
But I think what was important to me was like minded people.
So do you know that really thosepeople that I met who were
getting out doing those kind of roles where my nail up?
Do you know? And I still, you know, I still
in touch with them, you know, and then, you know, you're going
through your career and you can bounce ideas, you know, you just
(38:17):
like, what are you doing? How's this working?
Like what's going on? And actually, I think for me,
that was kind of always my, my dial in the, in the industries,
just like what's happening, what's, what's realistic?
Because I know that I'm always alittle bit like, oh, we can
always work in this amazing way.And then just like, OK, what's
real? What are we really doing?
What are people really asking? What are the challenges?
So for me that was it was alwaysquite grounding to have that
(38:42):
kind of network and similar network similar to me who were
all getting out there and doing these these kind of roles around
diversity. So a lot of a lot of what I did
kind of built around diversity, but then also I had some kind of
education roles as well. So I was lecturing at a few
different places and mentoring and Part 3 examining.
(39:05):
But yeah, I love it. I just love the connection.
I mean, students are always so optimistic.
Like I love that about students,the energy, the optimism, the
kind of outlook. So I do a few critics here in
Melbourne, which is great, but but yeah, I really want to, I
really miss that about my life in London, how involved I was in
the culture of architecture. And it's, it's, yeah, it's less,
(39:28):
less so in in Melbourne at the moment, but that's something I'm
looking at building up a bit more with them as you know, as I
meet more people. As I suppose as you say, it's,
it's it's very easy to become sort of isolated in, you know,
particularly if you are a largerpractice or, you know, even a
small practice isolated in that sort of, you know, the party
line, if you will. And this is what architecture is
(39:49):
and understanding the process and stuff.
And having something that, like you say, has is, is your kind of
dial into other ways of working.How other architects are doing
it, how they, you know, the industry is kind of reacting to
different things is, is incredibly beneficial.
And and yeah, like you say, it'sa.
You know, being able to cast your, your net a bit wider and
understand, you know, what your peers are doing is, is kind of
(40:10):
fascinating. I wonder if we just could talk
about the sort of the, the, the gender item.
And, and obviously you spent, you know, a huge part of your
career, you know, passionately, you know, trying to, trying to
balance the sort of the, the, the gender role and, and within
the industry. And like you say, coming from,
you know, a period in the past of, of difficulty.
(40:31):
Where do you, where do you see the industry now?
And, you know, do you think overyour time in it, it's, it has
improved. And, you know, I, I think, you
know, even reading bespoke sort of global survey the other day,
you know, the, the, there is still reported, you know, gender
pay gap. And every year it does seem to
reduce ever so slightly, but it is still, you know, a huge
(40:54):
problem in the industry. I wonder whether you talk about
that. Yeah, it's, it's still a huge
problem. I think people and there's
different attitudes, like you look at what Trump staying in
America, like just disbanding ordiversity initiatives.
But but I, I mean, I think it's interesting.
It takes work. It takes work and you have to be
conscious of these things. And I think because what
happens, you know, as soon as things like COVID happen, the
(41:16):
first thing that happens is you lose women and you lose
minorities from the industry. So it just takes a blip, you
know, takes a financial crisis or any kind of recession and the
blit the first people to go are the people that are struggling
around the edges. So, you know, they're the
they're the young mums or that they're the, you know,
minorities from or, you know, from lower social economic
(41:37):
circumstances where they can't kind of hang in there, you know,
and they're the people you're losing.
And it is really interesting actually doing critics at
university. As soon as they put the fees up
in, in the UK, the diversity of projects just went and you're
like, wow, Oh, that's interesting.
So, yeah, the project started becoming a little bit more
(41:57):
similar. And I think it's, it's really
interesting when you start looking at what, what it means
to not have diversity. But I think the discussion
around diversity has has wideneda little.
Yeah. I mean, asked in answer to your,
your, your question, like it's still an issue.
Like people need to be cognizantof what it means to try and keep
women in the industry. And, you know, it's, it's not
(42:20):
just about getting women in, keeping them, keeping them
through childbirth, keeping them, you know, having kind of
a, a broadview when that, you know, they're struggling with
lack of sleep and they've got young children or, you know,
they're they're not balanced. Their husbands aren't helping
always, you know, so it's, it's bigger than architecture, it's
cultural issues, you know, and there's a lot of things going
(42:41):
on. But I think if you broadened it
out into health and well-being, a lot of these issues that
you're talking about for diversity and for gender are
actually just make making the the practice a nicer place to
work. Do you know, And that just helps
everybody. Do you know, it's not about, you
know, you always get this feedback and push back going,
(43:02):
why do you keep talking about women?
What about everyone else? And you're like, no, no, no, no.
Like if you're supporting like, you know, the people that are
just hanging into the industry, you're supporting the industry.
Like you're making better working conditions, you're
listening to people, you're getting feedback.
You're just making this a betterindustry for everyone to work,
particularly for all mental health.
Like we're a bit more aware of mental health now than what we
(43:24):
were like 10-15 years ago. But you know, and I think once
we bring that on board and support people through their
careers, we're making a better place to work.
And I think that's for me, that's really important.
And I think a measure of that isthings like the gender pay gap
because, you know, you are seeing where are women not
(43:44):
present? And if they're not present in
the boardroom, do you know, you're not getting the different
voices and the different kind ofapproaches and the different,
you know, different aspects and different ways of thinking
across the table. But you know, and then some
practices you can see like the difference between introverts
and extroverts, you just like, you got to balance your voices,
you know, let people be heard and listen to different people
(44:06):
who have different accents or different ways of speaking or
different approaches. Because like, you know, I kind
of feel that as architects, we need to, yeah, we design cities.
We design cities for all sorts of people.
Like why do we not look like allsorts of people?
So, yeah, so there's, there's more of a journey.
(44:26):
I think people need to keep focused.
It's not something that EJ, hey,we did that.
We've done well, you know, tick that box.
Because I think there's still, Imean, out of university, I think
it's tipped the balance in Australia.
I think the figures have tipped the balance.
So there's more than 50% of women coming out of university.
But but they're not staying like, you know, and now I see
women my age. So there's a there's an awful
(44:47):
statistic. I think it's 30% of women going
through menopause will leave their jobs.
And you're just like, Oh my God,like that's 30% of senior women.
So you're just like, OK, what is, you know, there's not many
senior women anyway. What does that really mean?
So yeah, it's an interesting ongoing issue.
With with that in mind, how haveyou kind of felt yourself in
(45:11):
those sort of senior positions, you know, as a, as a female
voice within, you know, we, we talk about your sort of senior
positions within DCM Grimshaw, things like that.
You know, do you do you feel like you were fighting an uphill
battle with those within the boardrooms there?
You know, was your was your voice equal and and did you feel
(45:31):
like it was, you know, a difficult place to be sometimes
the. I think the sure answer is no.
And I think that's because I wanted to work at places where I
would be heard. So that's for me, that's that's
important. The.
But yeah, interesting. I mean, there were still moments
where, you know, you're not heard.
(45:52):
You know, you should you go on site.
You know, I was, I remember being on site for a one of our
projects with with a grad and they were asking him questions
because he hates the guy. And you're just like, Oh my God,
30 years older. It's like, why are they asking
me questions? I was like, because I'm a woman.
Like, do you know, like, you know, and that that's, that's
going to happen, you know, but Istill, I mean, it still happens.
(46:15):
And I think, yeah, but the, the,the rooms that I was in
purposely, you know, I would only work with people where I
felt that I was heard. But but also I'm at that kind of
age where I, I, I don't, you know, I don't actually need to
watch. I don't feel I need to, I
probably need to, I don't watch what I say as much anymore
because I feel confident enough to speak up.
So, you know, and I think that, and I think that's a good thing.
(46:37):
And I think, you know, we get tothis point where we speak up,
but we can speak up for those that that don't, right?
And so I think that is really important.
So like picking up. So if there is kind of, you
know, bad language, I find Australians love a bit of sexual
innuendo, like a lot of it. And then sometimes you're just
like, we're at work, like that is not appropriate.
Do you know, And I think it's really important to call that
(46:59):
out and go, look, I'm uncomfortable with that.
That's not OK for me, but I feelempowered to do that and I
would, I would, I think I would struggle to work anywhere where
I didn't feel empowered to speak.
So I think that's, I think that's really important.
With with that in mind, I wonderwhether as, as we're sort of
coming to a close a little bit, what, what do you think people
(47:22):
could take from your journey? And if there's, you know, if
there's a, a young female cominginto the profession, for
example, you know, what are those kind of piece of advice
that you would be giving, you know, to your sort of younger
selves around, you know, not only the sort of career and the
sort of design aspects, but about also, you know, making
yourself heard and standing up for yourself and, and, you know,
(47:43):
getting into those rooms where you know, it's, it's on an equal
footing. Well, I think it's interesting
because it's not just about gender, it's about all other
rhythms, you know? So it's like, a lot of the time
we feel like we're the only person in the room that
represents whatever it is. And I think that's really
interesting. Whether you feel too young,
whether you feel that you're just, you know, not otherwise
(48:03):
represented. For me, it's it's about self
belief. It's just like find a room where
people want to listen to you andthere are rooms that people will
listen. And I think that's for me,
that's really important. And I think all the kind of
decisions. Yeah, it's funny because I know
you sent all the questions over.So you're kind of reflecting in
(48:24):
advance, going, OK, you look at your career and you kind of like
when it kind of happens, you kind of bumbling along, you
know, you've got Chariza, you know, a little bit by design, a
little bit of luck. It's all about timing, You know,
a lot of things going on that you know, is not completely in
your control. But I think one thing that I've
kind of held fast to is it's just like, this is me.
(48:46):
This is what I believe in. This is what I want.
This is what I want to work. I want to work in a nice office
with nice people. That's not too much to ask for.
I don't think that's too much toask and do architecture in a
nice way today. Like I'm not if someone asked me
to stay up all night doing competition, I would probably
have some not nice words to say back.
Like it's not, that's not how I work.
(49:07):
And I think part of that is, youknow, just being really good at
communicating who you are and what your expectations are and
get and get that back. And I think young and what I
loved about being in London and recruiting like young
architects, young architects nowwill tell you what they want.
Like, you know, a lot of them will come in and say, this is
what I'm looking for. I think that's great.
(49:29):
I love that they have a voice. I love that they want to be
heard. I love, you know, and I think
it's up to us as kind of leadership and managers to just
be listening to those voices. So, you know, that would be my
advice to any young people. It's just like those voices and
that diversity of voices is so important.
And, you know, that's what makesour work, our lives interesting.
(49:50):
What's what, what makes our workinteresting.
So, you know, don't, don't shut up.
Say what you want to say. Completely and I, I, I do think
that is a wonderful thing about the, the, the next sort of
generation is that a lot of people do feel like they found
their voice and are OK at communicating it, which, as you
say, is a, is a brilliant skill to have.
(50:10):
And, you know, some of us maybe don't always find that until,
you know, later stages of our career.
Just to, just to end on, and it's a question I ask all of all
of the guests on the podcast. Has your has your career turned
out how you imagined it? And I think as you alluded to a
second ago, you know, careers are sometimes by by design,
(50:33):
sometimes by luck, sometimes by chance sort of thing.
I suppose how much of your career has been intentional and
how much has been through sort of adaption and, and things like
that? I think, you know, you've kind
of communicated a wonderful sortof approach to just being able
to try things out, I suppose. And, you know, that's the kind
of brilliant ability to have. So yeah, I, I, I suppose has has
(50:58):
your career turned out how you imagined?
It's, I mean, I, I mean that's what is great, but architecture,
it's always a surprise. You never quite know.
I actually, I didn't expect to be starting up a business at, at
this age. Like I feel like I've literally
gone back to Ground Zero. Like, and I'm like student,
like, you know, my head is spinning with everything going
on all at once and you're just like, Oh my God, like what is
(51:20):
going on? I kind of didn't expect that,
but I don't, I don't hide it. Like, you know, this is exactly
where I want to be right now. So it's, you know, I'm kind of
proud of myself for sticking, sticking through this and going,
OK, this is who you are. Like well done.
Like you're just doing what you want to be doing.
I love that. But but I think, you know, but
you can't gloss over the fact that it is an architectural
(51:42):
career. You're you've got employers,
you've got jobs. One of my last jobs at Grimshaw,
I was doing the, I was doing some rubbish, like literally I
was doing the recycling center in Edmonton.
So literally I was doing. Rubbish.
And I was like, they're like, wewant you to take over this job.
And I was like, wow, that's a lot of rubbish.
(52:04):
That's rubbish. Do you know, like I loved it.
Like I really loved it. Like it really.
And I think that's the thing about architecture.
It will surprise you. My team was fantastic.
The work was great, the client was great.
Do you know, And it actually wasreally interesting about, you
know, all the processes of how things would be, you know,
divided up how you know, how recycling was done, what, what
(52:26):
building materials could be reused.
I had no idea how bad plasterboard was like, do you
know, it was a real learning experience and that came from
like a project. I would have never someone asked
me to do like rubbish and recycling centre.
I would have like gone no, why are you kidding me?
But you know, and I think that'sthe interesting thing about
architecture. It's it will surprise you, you
(52:48):
know, like there's always learning, there's always great
things you can do small great things.
And so, you know, this is not mycareer.
I would never have guessed it would roll out like this, but in
the same breath I recognise myself through all of that,
which is what I, which is what Iintended to do.
So that's my intent, but it's just kind of rolled out around
(53:09):
me. Glad to be here where I am now,
yeah. I think that's great.
Thank you so much for joining me.
No problem, thanks for having me.
There's an awful statistic. I think it's 30% of women going
through menopause will leave their jobs.
That's 30% of senior women. I remember being on site rate
one of our projects with a grad and they were asking him
questions because he's the guy and you're just like, Oh my God.
Angela Dapper is a British architect living in Melbourne.
She runs her own studio, focusing on socially sustainable
(00:20):
architecture that enhances localcommunities and enriches lives.
Across Angela's career, she's worked for a number of prominent
practices within the UK and Australia, leading major project
and working as an advocate for diversity within the
architecture profession. I find it really uncomfortable,
the space of people doing socialhousing yet taking a profit from
things that are community based and necessary.
Part of what I'm setting up in my business is to set it up so
(00:43):
the profit then get rolled back into people and community to
create a cycle where it perpetuates, you know, better
outcomes for everybody. Why did you become an architect?
I think I chose to be an architect by about the age of
1213. And then I was like really
stubborn because so many people went, oh, you want to be an
architect? Well, you, you can't do that.
Oh, you're a girl. You'd hate it.
All of those comments that may be more determined to just go,
(01:05):
no, watch me do this. Angela, thanks so much for
joining me. Thanks for having me.
So just getting straight into it, why?
Why architecture? What is it about a career in
architecture that keeps you getting up in the morning?
You know, what is it about beingan architect that you really
kind of align with? I'm, I think for me, I mean, I
(01:30):
kind of feel that that that question would be answered
differently by every single person in architecture.
And I think that's probably the best thing about architecture.
It's just so broad. Like, you know, you're an
architect and you're doing podcasts, you know, like when
talking about architecture, we do architecture.
I, I feel that it's so broad that at any one point in time
you can be doing a different role in architecture.
(01:51):
And I think that's what keeps megoing is the diversity of
architecture itself keeps an interesting.
No, I, I completely aligned withthat.
I think obviously there are the,the unglamorous sides of it,
like area schedules, which I seem to hate.
But yeah, I think you're right that that sort of variety is,
is, is the real value piece. And maybe it is that thing of
(02:13):
when you're stuck in your early career, when, you know, if
you're on a large project, for example, and you're, you know,
designing the toilets, maybe youdon't always feel that variety,
but it does come. It is a, you know, a marvellous
kind of part of the career. What would you say is your kind
of route into architecture? Why, you know, why did you
become an architect? And was there something in your
(02:34):
sort of early upbringing and family life that kind of led you
to this career path? It's a really interesting
question because like, I didn't know I I grew up in a small
country town. I didn't know any architects or
anything about architecture, butbut I did know that I like
drawing. I really like drawing, I love
drawing buildings. So like I was very much into
(02:54):
drawing perspectives during elevations and for no, no
apparent reason loved doing maths, but loved the kind of and
I think a lot of architects are quite instead of being on the
creative side and more process driven.
So I love like the idea of putting things together in
process. So for me, like something in a
career in physics on maths was kind of where I was always
(03:16):
going. And I think I chose to be an
architect by about the age of 1213.
I was really young and then I was like really stubborn because
so many people went, oh, you want to be an architect?
Well, you can't do that. And there was all of that, oh,
you're a girl. You'd hate it.
Like and I was just, you know, it was all of those comments
that made me more determined to just go, no, I'm doing it, watch
(03:40):
me do this. So there was nothing kind of in
particular. I think it was just like all of
those things I enjoyed doing, I wanted to keep doing.
I kind of thought it was more about drawing and all of those
lovely things. But as we know that, you know,
there's a lot more to architecture.
That's a small part of the role.But but no, there was nothing
kind of in particular probably came out of stubbornness of me,
(04:02):
you know, people saying that it wasn't right for me and me going
no, yeah, I'm doing it like I will show you.
And I and I think I've probably kept that.
That's probably a key part of mycareer is just literally being a
little bit stunned. I mean, how did, how did that
sort of continue through your kind of university days?
Was was it always you feeling like you were fighting a little
bit of an uphill battle against the system?
(04:24):
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think so.
I was at university in the 90s and I mean the, it, it was a
very different time. And so even in that time, I
think we, we almost started out 5050 in terms of gender at the
start of architecture. By the end of it, I think it, we
were like the numbers of women were down to 25%.
(04:46):
You know, there was, you start my first job, I got paid less
than someone else who graduated from my university with lower
marks than me. I got paid less.
And I was like, what are you talking about?
So I think always that's kind ofin your mind, you're like,
sorry, like, I don't know, I'm too practical a person to kind
of understand why that happens. But when I saw that happened,
(05:08):
that was kind of, you know, yeah, I hated that.
And so that was not an uphill battle, but kind of, yeah,
definitely a bit of a battle or something there that you just
kind of go, no, like, I'm not doing that.
I'm not going to part. I'm not going to take part in
this kind of unequal profession.I'm here to do this equally,
like you've got to let me do it.So there was always a bit of
(05:31):
that, I think throughout my career and I, I kind of hope
that it's a bit better now. But the.
But yeah, definitely in the 90s,it wasn't a great place for
young, young female architects in, in Australia and in London.
Yeah. Just just on that, on that, the
sort of Australian London divide, what was it about?
(05:52):
So, so you were educated in Australia and then came to
London. What was the What was the drawer
of London? The there, I think it was just
opportunity. So I think it was always
Australia always feels a little bit on the other side of the
world and I think because it's separate from so other
countries. So in the other countries you
always feel a little bit separate.
So when you're studying and you know, you're studying
(06:14):
architecture, well, you know, you're studying global
architecture and global architects, but then you feel
quite removed. So I worked in Australia for a
couple of years and then, and I was, and, and this was the 90s
and I was doing 3D visualizations and, and fly
threes, which no one was kind ofdoing, which meant I was doing
like loads of them. So I spent a lot of time just
(06:37):
doing 3D models, which I, I kindof felt wasn't where I wanted to
be. So I took it off my CV said I
couldn't do it and then moved toLondon and then actually did
some like technical detailing and, you know, kind of really
felt like I got into architecture.
So it was about opportunities. And I think, you know, for me
coming from Australia, London was a place of opportunities
(06:58):
where they didn't ask, you know,it's, you're from another
country. They don't ask you which
university you go to, which theydo, you know, if you're from the
UK, they definitely do that in the UK.
But but because I came from another country, I was very much
taken on by merit, which I whichI loved.
So for me it was about opportunities.
I know you spent a long time at Denton Call commercial, which
(07:20):
instantly our Australian practice and, and your time on
the the Stonehenge Visitor Centre, which obviously was a
incredibly prominent project in the UK.
You know, lots of attention around that.
I wonder whether you would spenda little bit of time just
reflecting on that and your experience because I mean,
(07:40):
obviously that must have been incredibly complex, incredibly
sort of drawn out negotiating with different stakeholders and
you know, an amazingly sort of sensitive project which you
know, I know has won awards and you won awards for for your
participation in. Yeah, really, really difficult,
really complex. A lot of a lot of interested
parties. Sorry that you know, the list of
(08:01):
stakeholders, you know, was I think I think all the
stakeholders that we had to kindof go back to every time we had
a design update. I think we had like over 100 or
something, you know, it was amazing the amount of people
interested parties that proper interest as well, not just, you
know, interested. They were a part of the project
the and also don't forget there was so many failed schemes
(08:24):
before this one. So, you know, we had other
architects at one point. I remember an architect, quite a
prominent architect rang up and went, you know, I know you've
just won this, but it probably won't go ahead.
Why are you caught? Why are you calling me to tell
me that we're going to fail? Like no.
And so I mean, it was a really interesting one because it it,
(08:47):
it was hard. There was a lot of visibility,
there was a lot of decision making.
It changed locations a number oftimes.
A lot of people had a view of what it should look like.
You know, it's at Stonehenge. It should be heavy and grounded.
And it's just like, and we did something kind of light and it's
kind of the opposite of what people expected.
But yeah, so a lot of people hada lot of opinions and there was,
(09:09):
it was quite a long road to, to get it through planning,
through, you know, the stakeholder consultation,
etcetera. There were so many points where
it could have failed. And I think it's what for me,
it's a really great example of alot of people coming together to
make this work. The clients were amazing.
Do you know some of the, some ofthe, some of the curators, like
(09:34):
from the archaeologists were amazing.
You know, some of the architectsI worked with them consultants
were amazing. You know, they all had a part in
getting it through the kind of complexity of some of the
processes we had to go through. But the other thing that was
brilliant about this, so it was designed by Barry Marshall from
Dendeco Commercial, who, you know, did lots of beautiful
(09:54):
pencil sketches. He had a really clear vision of
what it should be like, really light on the landscape,
something that was kind of opposite of what Stonehenge is,
which is heavy and seeped in history.
So it wanted to be lights, you know, something that people pass
straight to go and visit the stones, that kind of clarity of
vision, hold it together for thewhole project that we were
(10:15):
designing furniture with that inmind.
We were designing, you know, allthe materials, you know about
the sustainability, the structure, everything with that
in mind. So it was really from a kind of
design process perspective, likean amazing example of how to do
design thinking in a really clear way to the point that when
(10:35):
it started on site, the contractor did a speech for all
the people working on site to talk about how you know what the
design vision was. I've never heard a contractor
talk about design vision. I listened to it because I
thought, oh, this will be interesting.
I wonder what they got it. But it was so simple that they
got it. And I was like, that's it, isn't
it? It's a simplicity of something
(10:56):
that you just go, all right, that's it.
I know what screws to pick. I know what that window detail
is. I know what the furniture is
like, you know, everyone was kind of on board with a singular
vision. And I think that's, that was a
kind of really lovely cohesion of that project, which meant
that because we were doing the visitor centre, we were also
doing the roundabouts and the roads and the, you know, the
(11:17):
path around Stonehenge because loads of work beyond the visitor
centre. But it pulled it all kind of
together. So it was which made it low key.
So everything was low key because everything was kind of
under the same kind of principle.
But nothing was jarring. You don't see it's like under
designed, which is really, yeah,really nice, but I think a
really good example of a whole lot of people coming together to
(11:39):
do that. But but yeah, I spent five years
on that project. It was like another child.
You know you. Just yeah, yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, that is the crazy thing with people coming into
architecture. It's just the amount of time
that it takes. You know, it's, you know, none
of us kind of get into it for the the sort of the fast track
sort of thing. You know, architecture and
particularly good architecture takes a lot of time.
(12:02):
Yeah. I mean, you, you reflected on
the sort of clarity, your visionand stuff.
And I think, like you say, that is such an incredible kind of
skill and, and something that architects can be particularly
good at, you know, guiding that sort of the big idea guiding
that concept through presumably is, is that something you've
kind of taken through with you into your sort of further
career? Because I, I know you've held,
(12:23):
you know, you've held very senior positions in, you know,
three major practices, you know,DCA and Grimshaw.
And is it architectors you? Architectors, yeah.
Yeah, you know, very senior positions in that and and you
know, I'd, I'd love to kind of understand those those skill
sets that you kind of have used and and grown over time, you
(12:45):
know, being in those positions. It's a, It's an interesting one
to kind of compare them because they're all different.
I think the scale makes things different because like the sheer
amount. So DCM I think we had at one
point we had 50 people. We were generally about 30
people. Quite often we're about 20.
(13:06):
So I think when I left DCM in London, we're about 1520 people.
We weren't big. And I think there's something
different about how you communicate in that kind of way
because there's less communication.
What I also took for granted, because I was there for such a
long time, I kind of grew into that role.
And so you kind of, you know, you know what you're doing, you
know your context and your surrounds and all the people
(13:28):
you're working with and you kindof grow into the role that's
there. And so I think that's quite a
different way of being a leader when you kind of grow and a lot
of people kind of grow into their, into their roles through
promotion. And I think it's quite, quite a
normal way of doing it. But you know, everything around
you, it's quite, you don't thinkabout it.
And I think when you kind of leave that kind of role, you,
(13:51):
you realize you took so much forgranted.
So the, the culture at DCM in London was amazing and so
chilled out and we discussed everything openly and everyone
was really supported. And you kind of take that as
being normal, but then you go toother practices and you realize
it's not normal. Or some people actually have to
work really hard on their culture to make it work.
(14:11):
So I think there's different, different things.
So yeah, DCM was an interesting one because I was there for so
long that I kind of grew into the role.
But then I became a partner and realised that, you know,
obviously you don't, you only know what you know from your
previous role. So I got a coach at that.
Point. Yeah.
And just went, OK, I need to learn, I need to know what I'm
(14:33):
doing. So when I do this role, I do it
well. So I don't want to just do it.
I just want to know what are theother options?
How do I do this well, how do I?How do I excel in this role?
So I got a coach, which I would highly recommend to everyone.
Yeah, it's brilliant just to hone your skills and learn all
those things about business thatyou don't get taught as an
architect. And you kind of learn along the
(14:55):
way. But when you learn it along the
way, you learn one way of doing things.
So learning, you know, from a broad selection of, you know,
how people are doing it in the marketplace, you know, what are
other options? How can we challenge what we're
doing? I think was great.
Then I moved to Grimshaw. Grimshaw was 320 people, which
was one of the reasons I moved is I wanted a new challenge and
(15:20):
I wanted to to understand what big looked like.
I kind of thought maybe I'd likea big big practice.
And so I just wanted to try it as well, just to see, try,
emphasize. And I think that's a nice thing
for for people to do in their careers.
Try a few things just to see what works.
Grimshaw was 320 people and so that meant because people were
(15:43):
always coming in and things werekind of always moving around
with different projects, they really worked hard on their
culture but had a fantastic office culture.
So for me, part of what I was doing there was, you know,
running projects, you know, doing my kind of principal role,
but also doing cultural roles. So I was head of their diversity
group and did a lot of work. So I was already doing work
(16:05):
around gender, but they're doingwork around gender in a big
practice is different because you know, it's 320 people,
you're always working at it, you're working with people, but
you're also you have to be really open to listen to what
people are saying. And I think that was really
because when they're really focused on culture, it meant
that they could focus on having these opportunities to listen
(16:25):
back to their staff, what's going on, what works?
How do we get the best teams together?
How do we get you all working well together?
And I think that's really important in architecture
because I think a lot of conversations about
architecture, we're always talking about long hours and low
pay. There are some people doing it
(16:47):
really well. So, you know, I think we need to
talk about those great examples of where people are doing it
really well. And I think when you kind of
move between offices, you can see what works and what doesn't,
but it works for the office, it might work for the scale and it
might work differently for different people as well.
And I think that's what we need to kind of acknowledge.
(17:08):
So, so for me that worked, you know, that scale kind of worked.
But I think in terms of leadership, and my kind of take
away from that is that, you know, the way that I lead teams
in in all three, like DCM, Grimshaw and architectures, was
really kind of focusing down on the people that you work with.
I think that's, that's everything, isn't it, for a
(17:30):
service industry. We work with people.
It's just like, how do you how do you get those people to
really work together? Well, So I think so that all of
those are quite similar, but youknow, as a leader, you kind of
doing the same thing. You really like creating
projects. You know, you're, you're working
with people, you're, you're dealing with clients.
I think they're already similar,but you know, but they're just
(17:50):
different scales and slightly different approaches for
different projects. Obviously, obviously, you know,
like you say, lead being a partner in a, a practice of 300
plus people is an incredibly kind of, you know, intimidating
sounding sounding thing. And, and particularly with you
coming from, you know, DCM, which was, which is a lot
smaller, what was it that that that led to that move and, and
(18:11):
that sort of ambition? Was it, was it lit?
Was it just about trying something else?
I mean, you know, because obviously lots of people reach
that sort of mid career point, have a little bit of a bobble
and, and kind of, you know, consider different career paths.
And, you know, I've, I've had somany, you know, friends and
colleagues that have have kind of moved in different directions
at that point, you know, to things outside of architecture.
(18:32):
And, and, you know, we hear so much about people moving outside
of architecture because of theirfrustration.
So, you know, it'd be interesting to sort of
understand that sort of career point and that sort of milestone
in your life. Well, I mean, that was an
interesting one because I mean, I could have stayed at DCMI,
felt like I could have stayed there forever.
And for me, I found that a difficult concept because, like,
(18:54):
I can't sit still very long. And the idea of going this is
it. Like, you know, I think I can't
remember how old I was at the time.
Maybe I was about 40 when I became a partner.
And I was like, oh. And everyone was like,
congratulations, that must be amazing for you.
And I was literally like, I'm atthe top now.
(19:15):
I really felt that it was. Yeah.
You kind of get somewhere. Like you've had this journey to
get somewhere and then you're there and you're like, oh, I
can't do this for the next like 25 years.
Like, you know, and it was fabulous and I loved it and it
was a great place, but I needed more and I want to learn.
So I just wanted to understand. So for me, it was about people.
(19:35):
So I was, I wasn't necessarily interested in working at
Grimshaw, but they approached meat one point and also said that
they would make a role for me. And I found that really
interesting. It's like, do what you do at
DCM, Just do it over here. So you're like, OK, I can do
that. I can just.
And it was really interesting. Interesting because they wanted
me and I think that's quite different to applying for a role
(19:59):
where you have to fit a role. And that's what, which is kind
of what I did in Australia actually.
So I worked at architectures where I I applied and I got a
role and the for me that was really uncomfortable because
they weren't looking for me and everything that I had to bring,
it was a role that I had to fulfil.
And I was like, that's not. How I work so, so the kind of
(20:23):
change, I think one of my friends said once like about
that time, she said, actually you realize you get to a point
where it's not about the work, it's about your everyday.
Like do you want to walk into that office every day?
And you're like, yeah, you know,it has to be a 7 out of 10 to
kind of get you in. It doesn't have to be a 10 out
(20:44):
of 10 all the time, but it has to kind of, it can't be like a
four. But yeah.
So for me it was about people like, do I want to be around
these people? Is this how I work?
It's this, you know, does it tickle my boxes in terms of what
I want out of a career? So, yeah.
So it kind of made sense for me to move to Grimshaw at times
because there's so much learningin it, which I, which I loved
(21:06):
and I love the opportunities it gave me as well.
Big practice is great. Like, you know, there's there's
money to to invest in courses and people and there's so many
other things that come with big practice that so there's
opportunities. Yeah, I really enjoy.
Yeah, it is a fascinating kind of thing because, you know, I
have so many conversations with young architects and, you know,
at the beginning of their careers, they're always asking
(21:27):
those sort of questions of, you know, should I go for a small
practice? Should I go for a big practice?
What are the experiences like and things like that?
And yeah, I think that's the thing.
It's just like trying, like you say, you know, trying those
different things because they are so different.
You know, just like the, the job, everyday job of an
architect is so different, you know, working in different
practices are so different. You know, I've worked in small
practices, medium sized practices and very big
(21:49):
practices. And you know, the, the, the
general process is probably a little bit similar.
But like you say, you know, they're, they're just incredibly
different environments. And, and yeah, getting a sort of
taste of those is, is kind of a wonderful part of the sort of
career journey. Yeah.
And, and I think you kind of have views of different ones as
well. So you kind of go, oh, I think
I'm a big practice person. And then you kind of go, well,
(22:11):
actually, but this big practice is not right for me or it's
about timing as well, right. It's it was right for me then,
it's not right for me now. So you know, yeah, it's a it's a
really important. Yeah, it's really interesting
because I think it's kind of, it's got me, I've done a lot of
different things. So, you know, I've done
airports, I've done like Stonehenge, you know, done Aesop
(22:33):
stores. I've done like, you know, all
different scales, all different things.
But I think what it does is it kind of gets you to a point.
So now, you know, so now I'm here and they kind of like
actually and, and and like, yeah, six months ago.
So actually I don't want to do this anymore.
And, and then it's an interesting one because I think
a lot of people kind of get to where I'm at now.
(22:53):
And, and actually a lot of senior women I know are leaving,
become client side, you know, become consultants.
They do other things because you're just like, actually like,
I don't, I don't want to be putting a whole lot of work in,
putting my heart into something I don't believe in.
So it's just like, what does that look like now?
So, so that's why I kind of stepped back and went, all
(23:14):
right, I'm, I'm out. I don't want to be part of this
at the moment. I want to take my skills and I
want to somehow strip back the levels of process and the levels
of hierarchy and and get back tobeing a hands on architect and
(23:37):
all the kind of things you love,but be able to do it and bring
that kind of value of your experience to people that really
need it. So you just like, actually I
could be doing work for directlywith, with people who are, you
know, need social and affordablehousing or they need kind of
community projects and bring that value to their projects and
(24:00):
bring that design and that expertise.
And that will have a bigger impact than what I'm doing
sometimes as a small, small cog in a big, bigger company in a
big wheel because you can just strip back all the process.
So that's what I'm looking at doing now is, is really looking
at seeing whether it's seeing whether it's possible.
I haven't quite nailed it yet tostrip back all those layers and
(24:23):
just be a hands on architect andjust bring that expertise and
value to kind of small scale projects.
With, with that in mind, what are the, I mean, obviously just
the context. Obviously you, you, you worked
in London for a long period of time.
Now I've returned to Australia and now starting your, your own
practice. What are those lessons that
(24:44):
you're taking with you, you know, what is, what is the value
proposition that you're making? And, and I suppose just for
context again, your, your, your new practice is focused on sort
of, you know, socially sustainable architecture,
working with communities and, and things like that.
How you know, how transferable, how transferable are all those
skills from airports and, and visitor centres to, to that sort
(25:08):
of thing? And and I think it's probably a
a leading question, but you knowthat clarity of of design idea
and the architect is the sort ofcollaborator and negotiator that
you kind of mentioned previously.
Yeah, well, I, I mean, I think they all lead into it and it's
really interesting when people think they and actually they
talk about it a lot more in in Australia than in London.
(25:30):
They talk about sectors and you just like actually when you're
an architect, the thinking that you might put into a hotel, you
might put into a school, you might put into, you know, like
you do a visitor centre, you might also do, you know, so I
was doing another project for the Botanic Gardens, you know,
so it's all about visitors and flows and movement of people and
(25:52):
how they experience space. So I think those lessons you can
take from anywhere. So, so smaller projects, I mean,
I think in terms of the design experience, I, I mean, for me
it's all transferable. So it's all about design
thinking. If you understand how people
move through space, you understand how people find joy
in space. So if you understand light and
(26:14):
scale and and movement, I think you know it all kind of
transfers. I think the business of
architecture is an interesting one because I've always been
interested in the business of architecture.
So that's a whole part of setting up your own practice,
which is, you know, something you don't do in big practice.
That's something I did at DCM because it's much smaller, so
(26:35):
it's more hands on. So that so the skills that I got
from running a business in DCMI can bring over some of the
skills from like Stonehenge. I think it was so transferable
because it's all about people and movement, but you know,
building and understanding building, you know, that's
always, always transferable intothis kind of space.
But I think as well, when you'vebeen quite senior, the way you
(26:57):
talk, the way you win work, the way you talk about work and the
way you can actually communicatea design idea, That kind of
clarity is something that peoplemiss when they're actually
talking about these smaller projects, which is why I was
really interested in going into these smaller projects because I
think I don't, I don't know, yousee these architects like doing
(27:17):
these like small, beautiful projects and you're like, what
are you doing? Like why they got like someone
straight out of uni when they could have someone like, you
know, they could have a fantastic project who you really
missed it. And sometimes it's literally
about the cost. So you just like, OK, they think
the cost of an architect doesn'tstack up.
But if you can make that value work, why can't you bring that
value and the expertise to actually do something really
(27:40):
effective and impactful in the right areas?
But yeah, so, so it, it should work.
In theory it should work. So we'll see.
It needs a bit of time to, to get, to get going.
But, but I think for me to set this up and do it in this way,
but also set up a culture that Iwant to set up and the culture
that I want to work in, I think for me is really important.
(28:04):
But and, and the, and the last big.
So part of it is about projects and part of it's like how you do
the projects. So, so part of it is like doing
community projects, but not taking I, I find it really
uncomfortable the space of people doing social housing, yet
taking a profit from that. I don't think things that are
community based and, and necessary we should be taking a
(28:27):
profit from. So, you know, you said part of
what I'm setting up in my business is to set it up so the
profits then get rolled back into people and community to
create a cycle where perpetuates, you know, better
outcomes for everybody. Yeah, fascinating.
What what is it about those projects that draw you to it?
Is it is it about that sort of that education piece?
(28:48):
Because obviously a lot of the people that you're probably
going to be working with don't probably talk the same, you
know, architect language that maybe some of the, you know,
more developer LED things in London.
We're doing, you know, how much,how much you kind of see
yourself as a guide on that process.
And, and you know, probably someof those skills from negotiating
and collaborating, you know, howdoes that all kind of fit in
(29:11):
into these sorts of projects, I suppose.
Well, I, I mean, it's an interesting one because I think
you almost have to smarter because you have to understand
the questions they're asking. So you have to listening is such
a, you know, massive skill in this space because it is, it is
new. These are new clients.
I think the other thing to kind of reflect on is that a lot of
(29:35):
people, a lot of the clients areactually, you know, similar
women or similar people to me where, you know, they have been
building professionals, They have gone, Oh my God, my career
is just too much. I've had enough.
I want to go and do something that's more rewarding.
So they are kind of leading these these practices, you know,
(29:56):
and they sorry, these clients, client bodies for social and
affordable housing or, you know,for kindergums or for, you know,
community projects. So actually you do find these
people who are similar in mind and similar looking for
something more kind of fulfilling as as a professional,
as a building professional. So actually there's a quite a
lot of similar people who understand what it is as
architects that we're selling. So I think, you know, the
(30:18):
language thing, you have to be careful and just understand who
you're speaking to, but and understand that actually
different government, particularly government bodies
or community bodies have different funding requirements.
So the shape of projects and processes have to reflect that.
So actually selling something back to them that actually fits
in with what they need rather than kind of saying this is what
(30:39):
we do, this is how we do it. You go, OK, what do you need?
How do we do that? How do we get the funding to
work? How do we move to the next
stage? You know, can we just do some
sketches to get this going? Like what does that, what does
that look like? So I think pausing, listening
and really understanding clientsto kind of work with them for
what they need. So it's kind of shared outcomes.
(31:01):
I think that's that's the important, that's the important
part. So kind of similar.
Yeah, it's all similar for architecture, you know, that we
do. But I kind of feel that it's
just more hands on and it's justmore, you know, there's an input
just to make this work, you haveto make it work.
You can't just sit there and go,oh, just look at a catalog and
get some blah, blah, blah out and draw it on a page.
(31:23):
It's like, no, this is real. These are kids that will
otherwise be on the street. Can you just get this, make it
safe, make it beautiful, get light in.
But you know, it may has to be cheap and cheerful here to get
this to work. So it's yeah, it's so it's
great. So the impetus is there.
But I think as well, you kind ofget to a point where you just
want to have a nice legacy. So you don't want to be working,
I don't know, in a big practice doing kind of big things.
(31:46):
You just like, actually I just want to leave my career doing
lovely stuff. So why, why, why now then what
is it, you know, having having spent, you know, a long time at
these larger practices, you know, building up, you know,
very big projects and building up lots of experience.
Why, why start on on your own now?
(32:06):
Why not 20 years ago? You know what, what is it about
this point in your career? You know, you mentioned the sort
of frustrations and stuff earlier, but you know, I'd love
to kind of peek behind the curtain of that.
Well, the I mean, it's, it's an interesting one because I kind
of feel that anyone that's doingthis kind of thing that I'm
doing at the moment, you know, is in their 20s and just
finishing uni. Like it's a funny time to be a
(32:28):
start off because you're like just starting.
But you know, I'm kind of end ofthe other end of the career.
But but it when, if not now, when?
And I think that that's a good question.
So COVID was was interesting point.
But for me and my family, we were, I think for everyone in
we're in London, like, you know,there's quite a lot of time for
(32:50):
reflection. Like what are we doing?
So, so it was just after COVID, we decided to move to Australia
because we were like, we want tomove If we don't go now, when,
when you don't do this now, likelife's short.
Like what are we doing? Like we want a different
(33:10):
lifestyle for our kids. We'd always, always talked about
going to Australia. So we're like, if we don't do
this now, I've got nothing to lose.
If we don't, if we didn't like it, if we don't like it, we can
move back. You know, it's not, it's not a
big deal. Like see on the side of the
world. But you know, we'll, you know,
we'll make it work and we love it.
I think the same attitude kind of applied to my career.
(33:32):
I was like, I don't want to be kind of sitting around going
what if like, you know, what if so I kind of always thought I
would go out on my own at some point and toyed with it a few
times. And then it's like, look, I
don't do this now. When, when do you do it?
You know, I'm 50 now. Like when do you, you know, I
can, I can put a good 15 years in and do something and do
(33:55):
something at my own, in my own pace, you know, in my own way.
And then, you know, and this is the kind of, you know, my last
kind of phase of my career, although I'm still open to to
changing that because I think changing it up is also exciting.
So never say never just having that sort of that approach and
that mindset, isn't it, You know, if opportunities come
(34:16):
along, we'll we'll look at them and and you know, you don't hold
too much weight to things and you you're a bit flexible with
them. How was that process moving back
to Australia as an architect? I know, I know, you had to sort
of. Is it the transfer, the sort of
registration of your final architecture degree?
You don't, you don't need to. So surprisingly a lot of people
aren't registered in Australia. Well, less, yeah, less so than
(34:40):
in in the UK. So when people come from
overseas, they don't necessarilydo it.
But the mutual recognition opened last year.
So I took the opportunity to to take that rate.
They also what it did for me. So the main difference, the
architecture is very similar here, just got different words.
(35:03):
So yeah, you know, every, Yeah. And it's really hard to, to
remember the words, you know, even like I, I swear every
second day I'm Googling what's VAT in Australia, What's VAT?
Do you know? It just doesn't always sink in
because it's the terms of the same, same, same, just
different. But so doing that meant that I
(35:23):
had to do an application, you have to do an interview.
So it's like in your part three interview and I was plus 3
examiner for like 10-12 years. So all of a sudden I'm on the
other side of the table. So I was like, Oh my God, I have
to prepare for this. I know how serious this is.
So yeah, I definitely got down and I was swatting to get.
So I'm glad I did it because I really kind of had to refresh
(35:46):
all these things in my mind and understand the differences.
It's kind of really similar to the UK.
It's just different, very different terms.
So it's just remembering what they are.
But besides that, I think culturally there's a few
differences in, in, in practice.So sometimes science I feel a
(36:08):
little bit more empowered here. Whereas in the A, you know, in
the UK, an architect has a role and you go and do it.
Whereas in Australia, they very much will tell you what they
want and you just like, oh, OK, you're like, yeah, but I can
give you this. And, and they're like, what this
(36:29):
is. So it's, it's a little bit more
prescribed. So it's a slightly different
different balance of working which is slightly uncomfortable,
but otherwise the same, same same.
You mentioned about being a Part3 examiner.
I know you've had lots of different experiences, you know,
in, in your London career being involved in numerous sort of
(36:51):
bodies, panels, groups, things like that.
How I mean, how have they sort of impacted on your career and
sort of what opportunities have come from them?
And I suppose the the crux is, you know, how much would you
encourage other people in their careers to become involved in
those things that you know, you've been passionate about?
(37:12):
Oh, I mean, I would, I definitely would.
And I think for me, it kind of comes down to that gender.
So it's, you know, so when, whenI started, yeah, when I started
architecture, like it was a bit more challenging and I had
amazing mentors and role models.So do you know, so I always
wanted to kind of give back a little.
So that's why I started kind of working with universities, doing
(37:33):
Part 3, mentoring, doing those kind of roles.
I felt that that was kind of part of what I could give
people. So, you know, and I, yeah, so I
was always part of kind of groups for women in
architecture. And then I joined the the RIBA
group for Architects for Change,the diversity group, which was
great, and then was on the Reba Council.
(37:57):
But I think what was important to me was like minded people.
So do you know that really thosepeople that I met who were
getting out doing those kind of roles where my nail up?
Do you know? And I still, you know, I still
in touch with them, you know, and then, you know, you're going
through your career and you can bounce ideas, you know, you just
(38:17):
like, what are you doing? How's this working?
Like what's going on? And actually, I think for me,
that was kind of always my, my dial in the, in the industries,
just like what's happening, what's, what's realistic?
Because I know that I'm always alittle bit like, oh, we can
always work in this amazing way.And then just like, OK, what's
real? What are we really doing?
What are people really asking? What are the challenges?
So for me that was it was alwaysquite grounding to have that
(38:42):
kind of network and similar network similar to me who were
all getting out there and doing these these kind of roles around
diversity. So a lot of a lot of what I did
kind of built around diversity, but then also I had some kind of
education roles as well. So I was lecturing at a few
different places and mentoring and Part 3 examining.
(39:05):
But yeah, I love it. I just love the connection.
I mean, students are always so optimistic.
Like I love that about students,the energy, the optimism, the
kind of outlook. So I do a few critics here in
Melbourne, which is great, but but yeah, I really want to, I
really miss that about my life in London, how involved I was in
the culture of architecture. And it's, it's, yeah, it's less,
(39:28):
less so in in Melbourne at the moment, but that's something I'm
looking at building up a bit more with them as you know, as I
meet more people. As I suppose as you say, it's,
it's it's very easy to become sort of isolated in, you know,
particularly if you are a largerpractice or, you know, even a
small practice isolated in that sort of, you know, the party
line, if you will. And this is what architecture is
(39:49):
and understanding the process and stuff.
And having something that, like you say, has is, is your kind of
dial into other ways of working.How other architects are doing
it, how they, you know, the industry is kind of reacting to
different things is, is incredibly beneficial.
And and yeah, like you say, it'sa.
You know, being able to cast your, your net a bit wider and
understand, you know, what your peers are doing is, is kind of
(40:10):
fascinating. I wonder if we just could talk
about the sort of the, the, the gender item.
And, and obviously you spent, you know, a huge part of your
career, you know, passionately, you know, trying to, trying to
balance the sort of the, the, the gender role and, and within
the industry. And like you say, coming from,
you know, a period in the past of, of difficulty.
(40:31):
Where do you, where do you see the industry now?
And, you know, do you think overyour time in it, it's, it has
improved. And, you know, I, I think, you
know, even reading bespoke sort of global survey the other day,
you know, the, the, there is still reported, you know, gender
pay gap. And every year it does seem to
reduce ever so slightly, but it is still, you know, a huge
(40:54):
problem in the industry. I wonder whether you talk about
that. Yeah, it's, it's still a huge
problem. I think people and there's
different attitudes, like you look at what Trump staying in
America, like just disbanding ordiversity initiatives.
But but I, I mean, I think it's interesting.
It takes work. It takes work and you have to be
conscious of these things. And I think because what
happens, you know, as soon as things like COVID happen, the
(41:16):
first thing that happens is you lose women and you lose
minorities from the industry. So it just takes a blip, you
know, takes a financial crisis or any kind of recession and the
blit the first people to go are the people that are struggling
around the edges. So, you know, they're the
they're the young mums or that they're the, you know,
minorities from or, you know, from lower social economic
(41:37):
circumstances where they can't kind of hang in there, you know,
and they're the people you're losing.
And it is really interesting actually doing critics at
university. As soon as they put the fees up
in, in the UK, the diversity of projects just went and you're
like, wow, Oh, that's interesting.
So, yeah, the project started becoming a little bit more
(41:57):
similar. And I think it's, it's really
interesting when you start looking at what, what it means
to not have diversity. But I think the discussion
around diversity has has wideneda little.
Yeah. I mean, asked in answer to your,
your, your question, like it's still an issue.
Like people need to be cognizantof what it means to try and keep
women in the industry. And, you know, it's, it's not
(42:20):
just about getting women in, keeping them, keeping them
through childbirth, keeping them, you know, having kind of
a, a broadview when that, you know, they're struggling with
lack of sleep and they've got young children or, you know,
they're they're not balanced. Their husbands aren't helping
always, you know, so it's, it's bigger than architecture, it's
cultural issues, you know, and there's a lot of things going
(42:41):
on. But I think if you broadened it
out into health and well-being, a lot of these issues that
you're talking about for diversity and for gender are
actually just make making the the practice a nicer place to
work. Do you know, And that just helps
everybody. Do you know, it's not about, you
know, you always get this feedback and push back going,
(43:02):
why do you keep talking about women?
What about everyone else? And you're like, no, no, no, no.
Like if you're supporting like, you know, the people that are
just hanging into the industry, you're supporting the industry.
Like you're making better working conditions, you're
listening to people, you're getting feedback.
You're just making this a betterindustry for everyone to work,
particularly for all mental health.
Like we're a bit more aware of mental health now than what we
(43:24):
were like 10-15 years ago. But you know, and I think once
we bring that on board and support people through their
careers, we're making a better place to work.
And I think that's for me, that's really important.
And I think a measure of that isthings like the gender pay gap
because, you know, you are seeing where are women not
(43:44):
present? And if they're not present in
the boardroom, do you know, you're not getting the different
voices and the different kind ofapproaches and the different,
you know, different aspects and different ways of thinking
across the table. But you know, and then some
practices you can see like the difference between introverts
and extroverts, you just like, you got to balance your voices,
you know, let people be heard and listen to different people
(44:06):
who have different accents or different ways of speaking or
different approaches. Because like, you know, I kind
of feel that as architects, we need to, yeah, we design cities.
We design cities for all sorts of people.
Like why do we not look like allsorts of people?
So, yeah, so there's, there's more of a journey.
(44:26):
I think people need to keep focused.
It's not something that EJ, hey,we did that.
We've done well, you know, tick that box.
Because I think there's still, Imean, out of university, I think
it's tipped the balance in Australia.
I think the figures have tipped the balance.
So there's more than 50% of women coming out of university.
But but they're not staying like, you know, and now I see
women my age. So there's a there's an awful
(44:47):
statistic. I think it's 30% of women going
through menopause will leave their jobs.
And you're just like, Oh my God,like that's 30% of senior women.
So you're just like, OK, what is, you know, there's not many
senior women anyway. What does that really mean?
So yeah, it's an interesting ongoing issue.
With with that in mind, how haveyou kind of felt yourself in
(45:11):
those sort of senior positions, you know, as a, as a female
voice within, you know, we, we talk about your sort of senior
positions within DCM Grimshaw, things like that.
You know, do you do you feel like you were fighting an uphill
battle with those within the boardrooms there?
You know, was your was your voice equal and and did you feel
(45:31):
like it was, you know, a difficult place to be sometimes
the. I think the sure answer is no.
And I think that's because I wanted to work at places where I
would be heard. So that's for me, that's that's
important. The.
But yeah, interesting. I mean, there were still moments
where, you know, you're not heard.
(45:52):
You know, you should you go on site.
You know, I was, I remember being on site for a one of our
projects with with a grad and they were asking him questions
because he hates the guy. And you're just like, Oh my God,
30 years older. It's like, why are they asking
me questions? I was like, because I'm a woman.
Like, do you know, like, you know, and that that's, that's
going to happen, you know, but Istill, I mean, it still happens.
(46:15):
And I think, yeah, but the, the,the rooms that I was in
purposely, you know, I would only work with people where I
felt that I was heard. But but also I'm at that kind of
age where I, I, I don't, you know, I don't actually need to
watch. I don't feel I need to, I
probably need to, I don't watch what I say as much anymore
because I feel confident enough to speak up.
So, you know, and I think that, and I think that's a good thing.
(46:37):
And I think, you know, we get tothis point where we speak up,
but we can speak up for those that that don't, right?
And so I think that is really important.
So like picking up. So if there is kind of, you
know, bad language, I find Australians love a bit of sexual
innuendo, like a lot of it. And then sometimes you're just
like, we're at work, like that is not appropriate.
Do you know, And I think it's really important to call that
(46:59):
out and go, look, I'm uncomfortable with that.
That's not OK for me, but I feelempowered to do that and I
would, I would, I think I would struggle to work anywhere where
I didn't feel empowered to speak.
So I think that's, I think that's really important.
With with that in mind, I wonderwhether as, as we're sort of
coming to a close a little bit, what, what do you think people
(47:22):
could take from your journey? And if there's, you know, if
there's a, a young female cominginto the profession, for
example, you know, what are those kind of piece of advice
that you would be giving, you know, to your sort of younger
selves around, you know, not only the sort of career and the
sort of design aspects, but about also, you know, making
yourself heard and standing up for yourself and, and, you know,
(47:43):
getting into those rooms where you know, it's, it's on an equal
footing. Well, I think it's interesting
because it's not just about gender, it's about all other
rhythms, you know? So it's like, a lot of the time
we feel like we're the only person in the room that
represents whatever it is. And I think that's really
interesting. Whether you feel too young,
whether you feel that you're just, you know, not otherwise
(48:03):
represented. For me, it's it's about self
belief. It's just like find a room where
people want to listen to you andthere are rooms that people will
listen. And I think that's for me,
that's really important. And I think all the kind of
decisions. Yeah, it's funny because I know
you sent all the questions over.So you're kind of reflecting in
(48:24):
advance, going, OK, you look at your career and you kind of like
when it kind of happens, you kind of bumbling along, you
know, you've got Chariza, you know, a little bit by design, a
little bit of luck. It's all about timing, You know,
a lot of things going on that you know, is not completely in
your control. But I think one thing that I've
kind of held fast to is it's just like, this is me.
(48:46):
This is what I believe in. This is what I want.
This is what I want to work. I want to work in a nice office
with nice people. That's not too much to ask for.
I don't think that's too much toask and do architecture in a
nice way today. Like I'm not if someone asked me
to stay up all night doing competition, I would probably
have some not nice words to say back.
Like it's not, that's not how I work.
(49:07):
And I think part of that is, youknow, just being really good at
communicating who you are and what your expectations are and
get and get that back. And I think young and what I
loved about being in London and recruiting like young
architects, young architects nowwill tell you what they want.
Like, you know, a lot of them will come in and say, this is
what I'm looking for. I think that's great.
(49:29):
I love that they have a voice. I love that they want to be
heard. I love, you know, and I think
it's up to us as kind of leadership and managers to just
be listening to those voices. So, you know, that would be my
advice to any young people. It's just like those voices and
that diversity of voices is so important.
And, you know, that's what makesour work, our lives interesting.
(49:50):
What's what, what makes our workinteresting.
So, you know, don't, don't shut up.
Say what you want to say. Completely and I, I, I do think
that is a wonderful thing about the, the, the next sort of
generation is that a lot of people do feel like they found
their voice and are OK at communicating it, which, as you
say, is a, is a brilliant skill to have.
(50:10):
And, you know, some of us maybe don't always find that until,
you know, later stages of our career.
Just to, just to end on, and it's a question I ask all of all
of the guests on the podcast. Has your has your career turned
out how you imagined it? And I think as you alluded to a
second ago, you know, careers are sometimes by by design,
(50:33):
sometimes by luck, sometimes by chance sort of thing.
I suppose how much of your career has been intentional and
how much has been through sort of adaption and, and things like
that? I think, you know, you've kind
of communicated a wonderful sortof approach to just being able
to try things out, I suppose. And, you know, that's the kind
of brilliant ability to have. So yeah, I, I, I suppose has has
(50:58):
your career turned out how you imagined?
It's, I mean, I, I mean that's what is great, but architecture,
it's always a surprise. You never quite know.
I actually, I didn't expect to be starting up a business at, at
this age. Like I feel like I've literally
gone back to Ground Zero. Like, and I'm like student,
like, you know, my head is spinning with everything going
on all at once and you're just like, Oh my God, like what is
(51:20):
going on? I kind of didn't expect that,
but I don't, I don't hide it. Like, you know, this is exactly
where I want to be right now. So it's, you know, I'm kind of
proud of myself for sticking, sticking through this and going,
OK, this is who you are. Like well done.
Like you're just doing what you want to be doing.
I love that. But but I think, you know, but
you can't gloss over the fact that it is an architectural
(51:42):
career. You're you've got employers,
you've got jobs. One of my last jobs at Grimshaw,
I was doing the, I was doing some rubbish, like literally I
was doing the recycling center in Edmonton.
So literally I was doing. Rubbish.
And I was like, they're like, wewant you to take over this job.
And I was like, wow, that's a lot of rubbish.
(52:04):
That's rubbish. Do you know, like I loved it.
Like I really loved it. Like it really.
And I think that's the thing about architecture.
It will surprise you. My team was fantastic.
The work was great, the client was great.
Do you know, And it actually wasreally interesting about, you
know, all the processes of how things would be, you know,
divided up how you know, how recycling was done, what, what
(52:26):
building materials could be reused.
I had no idea how bad plasterboard was like, do you
know, it was a real learning experience and that came from
like a project. I would have never someone asked
me to do like rubbish and recycling centre.
I would have like gone no, why are you kidding me?
But you know, and I think that'sthe interesting thing about
architecture. It's it will surprise you, you
(52:48):
know, like there's always learning, there's always great
things you can do small great things.
And so, you know, this is not mycareer.
I would never have guessed it would roll out like this, but in
the same breath I recognise myself through all of that,
which is what I, which is what Iintended to do.
So that's my intent, but it's just kind of rolled out around
(53:09):
me. Glad to be here where I am now,
yeah. I think that's great.
Thank you so much for joining me.
No problem, thanks for having me.
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