What happens when you're one of twelve siblings growing up in a rural community without modern conveniences? Christine, our guest, paints a vivid tapestry of her childhood, filled with challenges, heartache, and the warmth of a close-knit community, the Statesville Brickyard community. As she recounts her experiences, from the tragic losses of several siblings to the small joys of getting electricity for the first time, Christine's story becomes a powerful testament to the resilience and faith that have guided her through life's trials.
Christine's journey doesn't shy away from the difficulties of large family dynamics, particularly when compounded by the challenges faced by her deaf siblings. We touch on the haunting premonitions of her mother and the heartbreaking abuse Christine endured, yet marvel at her ability to turn her experiences into empathy and understanding in her teaching career. Her narrative is a reminder of how her faith offers refuge and healing.
From a challenging upbringing to a life filled with love, Christine's story is more than just survival; it's about transformation and overcoming depression through faith. We explore the host's journey from rock bottom to recovery, and how these shared stories are the bedrock of this podcast. This episode promises not just to inspire but to provide a beacon of hope for anyone wrestling with similar struggles, underscoring the transformative power of resilience and faith.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hi and welcome to another episode of Beyond
Existing.
I want to welcome a guest thatI've known for quite some time.
She is a strong woman with aneven stronger faith.
I've asked her to share herstory with you today.
Welcome, christine.
Thank you To the podcast.
Christine and I have taughttogether for many, many years,
(00:35):
and teaching is just not thesame without her.
I miss her so much and justthrough the years, she has told
so many stories and I justwanted the public just to hear
them, because they're suchtremendous stories of overcoming
, triumphing, keeping your faith.
(00:56):
Now, christine, you grew up.
Tell us how you grew up.
I grew up pretty poor.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Country yeah, pretty poor up.
Tell us how you grew up.
I grew up pretty poor country.
Yeah, pretty poor.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Uh, number eight out of the family of 12 and um never
knew I was poor.
Really, right, you know?
Speaker 3 (01:17):
yep, so you were born december 23rd 1945 my sister
told me it was so cold outsidethat the diapers froze on the
line and I still think thedoctor and my daddy hit the
moonshine because I didn't havea birth certificate.
But I was born at home.
(01:38):
I was born at the brickyardcommunity and then, when I was
about seven, we moved up onHickory Highway close to the old
weighing scales and we wereraised way down in the woods
about a mile or more, on theCatawba River really, which was
a good thing.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, yeah.
So can you tell the audiencewhat was it like living in the
Statesville Brickyard community?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
audience.
What was it like living in thestate's full brickyard community
?
Well, at that time that was, uh, that was a good place because
you had the company store, youhad the local church and it was
a community.
You didn't go outside of yourcommunity unless you happened to
go to town on a saturday orwhatnot.
You had everything you neededright there and we had the
(02:26):
community church.
The black culture would sit atthe back and, of course, the
whites would sit at the front,but the community was so that
the blacks were like a part ofmy family.
I was in their house as much asI was in mine.
A lot, you know.
And, um, the store hadeverything you needed.
(02:49):
Daddy worked at the brickyard.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It was nice now, did your family have a car?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
no, we never had a car, we never had electricity,
we did not have have hot runningwater.
We always had an outside toilet, even when we moved up on the
Hickory Highway.
Like I say, we were dirt poor,I guess you could say, but we
(03:18):
lived on a semi-farm.
Daddy always killed a hog,daddy always fished, we always
had hams and bacon and stuff inthe smokehouse.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Mama milked the cow, so we were still well taken care
of, you know, uh-huh yep, Iremember when one time we were
teaching together and it was thefunniest story.
Do you remember the story ofyou were telling me how you were
telling the class about nothaving electricity?
And then you remember the daythat they brought electricity to
(03:51):
your house?
I do.
And one of the kids asked MissMiller, how did you know what to
do?
Do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
They asked me so many questions Like did you have
spoons and forks?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, and you said how did I know what to do?
Well, and you walked over thelight switch and you just turned
it on.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Oh dear, that was a happy time.
One of my older sisters hadgotten married and it didn't
work out and they had a housefull of furniture.
So Daddy took over the paymentson that house full of furniture
and one thing was aWestinghouse TV and I am telling
you we were in heaven.
I can still see that TV sittingthere.
(04:38):
We didn't have an antenna butwe ran the cord up and we hung a
coat hanger wrapped in tin foilon the wall.
Now that right there waselectricity to me.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, so your daddy was a
sharecropper.
But he worked at the brickyardtoo, so he did both Okay, all
right, and you were poor, butyou never felt poor because
everybody else was in the same.
They were poor too.
Yeah, condition, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
so y'all were like true community shared with each
other and yeah, I mean we livedtogether blacks, whites,
whatever you know and we didshare.
Yeah, I've got some wonderfulmemories of some of those
families.
I was always amazed that thisone family I went to they put
(05:31):
their curling iron on the fireand they would curl their hair
was that hot curling.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I was just amazed at that oh, wow because, yeah, wow,
right, so you said there were12 children and you were the
eighth.
Okay, now I know there wastragedy.
Do you mind sharing a littlebit about what happened to the
baby?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
The first was that mama lost the baby.
He was three months old and Inever did find out why he died.
And then my sister, peggy.
She was in the fourth grade andwe were in the bed on one
Sunday morning and she said now,whoever's the quietest?
(06:17):
I think we were going to go tochurch.
We had friends of the churchthat would come and get us, and
Mom and Daddy didn't go, butthey would take us to church.
And so, uh, peggy was dressed,she had a little wool skirt on
and we didn't have a stove, wehad an open fireplace.
So she said whoever's thequietest, I'm gonna come and get
you up first.
(06:37):
And of course we had a littlebrother, johnny, and he we
petted him because we were thegirls, you know.
So she got Johnny up and,although I didn't see it, it was
her stooping by the fire, tyinghis shoelaces, and the back of
her skirt caught on fire.
And so when she realized it, Iguess she went running out the
(06:58):
door, which nowadays we trainour kids to stop, drop and roll.
Well, mama and Daddy were in thebed.
So mama got up and went runningafter peggy and beat the fire
off of her and everything.
Mama burned her hands, real bad, and we didn't have a car so we
had to depend on go to the endof our road, which I thought was
(07:19):
a mile, and ask somebody tocome and take us to a hospital
or something.
So they did.
And then the next thing I knowthere's this black car coming
down the road and Peggy had died.
And I just always remember thatblack car coming down the road.
(07:43):
So she passed.
I was in the first grade andshe was in the fourth grade and
then, when I was in the eighthgrade, I had a little brother
who drowned.
He was five years old.
He would have gone to the deafschool that year because they
have to go several years at atime to learn the sign language
(08:03):
and all that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Now you had several.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
You had two or three, four siblings that were dead
anyway.
Um, he and my other littlebrother, johnny, they had been
playing in the woods and they,jerry wayne, had the little red
wagon and he had his cowboy gun,he had, daddy's, those oshkosh
bandanas and you know, and atree had fallen and that was
their foxhole and but jerry fellin that foxhole and it had
water in it and, uh, we didn'thave the car.
(08:36):
It maybe if we'd had a car, youknow, we could have got him to
the hospital, or if daddy hadknown the resuscitation, you
know, but we can't live on.
What ifs that happened, youknow, but that was just really
rough, oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Now you share a story about the dirt road that y'all
lived on and how it always feltkind of eerie to you?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, we would come down the road, and then there
was one spot in the road thatwent around a curve and it was
woods on both sides and it wasalways frigid in that curve, and
so we would run as fast as wecould to get through that.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, and that's where Jerry Wayne.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
No, you'd come on down the road, and one night
mama was sending us up to jameshollis, who was the man who
owned the farm where we lived.
I don't know why she wassending us, but I know we didn't
want to go because, you know,mama was another story.
Yeah and uh, this, this ball offire.
(09:42):
It rolls out of the woods, andso Linda and I, we were together
, and my sister tells the samestory.
So the people, they doubt it,but it wasn't.
And so if we tried to go aroundthis side, that ball would roll
, and if we tried to go aroundthis way, that ball would roll.
And it's where Jerry drowned.
However, I don't remember ifthe ball of fire was before he
(10:04):
drowned or after he drowned.
However, I don't remember ifthe ball of fire was before he
drowned or after he drowned.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
That's unbelievable.
Now, gary Walter was another,the baby.
He was the one who passed.
He was three months old.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Goodness, now, before Peggy passed, mom comes flying
out of the house one day and wehad the back porch and on one
side of the back porch was awell and we were probably I was
drawing water or something andMama throws her hands up over
her face and she says you knowwhat's wrong?
And she said that she had seenthe living room with flowers all
(10:45):
along the wall and a coffin soit's like she had a premonition.
Yes, but mama did that a lot,she saw things and that was
peggy, that was peggy's fear.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
So your mama would have premonitions a lot, a lot.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Did they often come true I don't know, because she
would tell you about growing upwhen she would see
jack-o'-lanterns and thesethings would try to lead her to
a ditch where it wasn't safe, oror this white thing was flying
through the air.
She just told all these thingsyou know, and she told them for
true.
So I don't know.
I think that I think thatpeople older than me really did
(11:24):
see omens and premonitions morethan we do.
We just don't take time toRight yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Don't take time in the whole spiritual realm to
even think about Right yeah, andyou know me.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I don't want to mess with anything like that, because
I don't know how to say this,but like I've always felt, like
it's a sin that I don't need tobe doing, yeah to delve into the
mystic and right, or to evenacknowledge those.
Yeah and in the ouija boardsand all that stuff, because I'll
never forget reading amityvillehorror.
I got that things out of myhouse and I have never read a
(12:01):
book like that again right, socan you tell people what it's
like?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
you said there were 12 children, and I would hear
you and Tana, who was anothershe was a co-worker she was the
10th of 10, so that's why herdad chose Tana for her name, but
I remember y'all explaining tome what it's like growing up in
a big family like you're notjust like one big family, you're
(12:27):
kind of it's kind of likegroups of siblings right, okay,
I can tell mine was threefamilies.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
So my oldest, dorothy , baxter bug.
They grew up and left home asfast as they could.
Bug we call her bug, but she'sthe only one who graduated,
she's the one that got marriedand did work out.
So they grew up and left.
Okay, then you had the deafchildren.
You had James Robert and DesiPeggy had burned Desi and James
(13:00):
Robert and then Jerry Wayne.
So I had those two who were atthe deaf school all the time.
And then you had me, johnny andLinda the three of us at home
at that time.
So that was us.
Then Mama had Jerry Wayne andthen she had Debbie, who was a
(13:20):
change.
Well, you know, you call them achange of life baby.
When you're going throughmenopause, it's easy to get
pregnant.
Yeah, so she had debbie.
So those two were deaf too.
They turned out deaf for somereason.
So, uh, now me I did.
After, maybe after the eighthgrade, I didn't stay home much
(13:42):
anymore because mama didn't likeme.
I hate to tell you, yeah, shejust did not like me.
So our family, now my deafbrothers and sisters, would come
home in the summertime, andthey were different because at
the deaf school I think they hadto compete for their space and
(14:02):
their items because I'm surethat other children would try to
take their things and stufflike that.
So when they would come home inthe summertime they were very
aggressive.
You know, I'll never forget mysister.
She just scratched my leg andthe blood came out because I
used her bobby pins.
But it's just so different.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
But you know, all in all, Elisaisa, I can't bet you
never grabbed a bobby pin again.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I didn't do hers again, but they were more
aggressive and I guess they hadto be.
You had to stop and think aboutit while they're like that,
very frustrating, right, yeah,but I will tell you this that,
because of mama being like shewas which was, I'm sure, bipolar
, some missing hormones orsomething, it was really bad my
(14:52):
family did not hate each other.
Yeah, you know, I love Johnnyand Linda and Debbie Mine.
I loved them.
And my older sister was like mymama.
I loved her.
So we didn't hate each otherlike some families do.
Yeah, yeah, because we knewwe'd been through so much.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, yeah, do you mind sharing a little bit about
your mama?
What Well, mama?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, mama Elisa, I don't know.
I started staying with myrelatives like high school age
and before that I saved mysister and her husband.
Her husband was a policeofficer, so they really took
care of me.
(15:41):
But like one weekend I camehome from Concord where I stayed
with Betty and Richard, myfirst cousins, and babysat their
little girl, donna Duck, andwent to school, and that was in
Concord at WRO Dell.
Well, I came home and the wholekitchen floor was wet and I go
oh my gosh, what happened inhere, mama, and she goes.
(16:01):
I almost killed that littlebitch, but she had choked Debbie
and Debbie wasn wasn'tbreathing.
So mama took a bucket of waterand threw it on her and then, uh
, to get jerry wayne out whenthey started walking.
Oh my god, elisa, she wouldbeat them to make them walk and
(16:24):
do stuff like that.
It was so bad so it was bad.
So I know at one point in timethey took Mama to Broughton for
some reason and they wanted tocommit Mama, but Daddy wouldn't
do it.
And so when you grow up, youlove the one that takes care of
(16:47):
you and loves you.
You know, and you never realize.
Well, you know they played apart in this too, something.
I mean, keep having thesechildren, and she abused them.
But this is your responsibilitytoo, and I never realized that.
I think I told you one night Ihad lost the cuff link.
We had gone to see the goat man.
(17:08):
My married sister took us.
Anyway, when Mama found out Ilost that cuff link, she was
beating me with a piece of stovewood in the poker.
Well, daddy was sitting at thekitchen table because he didn't
get off until 10 o'clock atnight and he was eating supper.
And so, as I'm lying there onthe floor, my head rolled that
way.
And I see, at night and he waseating supper.
(17:28):
And so, as I'm lying there onthe floor, my head rolled that
way and I see daddy, and he'seating.
And right then, the moment ofreality I'm going you're not
doing anything.
How could you do this?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
he's not trying to stop it or anything, watching
you get beat with a fire poker.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I guess he was just so immune to it.
I don't know, I don't know.
You know?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I mean, they're your parents right, yeah, because
before that you just spoke sowell of him and I love daddy,
but I realize yeah when you'regrowing.
When you were younger and hewas a good daddy, yeah, but so
could you see her abuse, likethe more kids she had, did it
(18:10):
get worse.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Well, she would tie a brick around little Jerry's
neck and say she was going totake him to the river and drown
him.
And I'm going to tell yousomething when we even lived at
the brickyard, she would put uson top of the trunk with a
shotgun pointed at us.
I don't know why she neverlearned to shoot it, but I can
(18:34):
still see her up on the hickoryhighway and, um, she'd be saying
she was going to go drown alittle jerry and she had us all
lined up and I'm sitting therepraying, dear god, please let
her die.
Please let her die.
That's not good.
I mean, a child should neverthink that.
And I didn't hate her.
At least I still don't hate hertill this day.
(18:56):
Yeah, I just kind of feel sorryfor her, because now my
children, they get mad everytime you talk about it, because
they don't like to know thattheir mother was mistreated.
They didn't like her anyway.
But, um, I don't know mama'sjust.
And you know I'll stop and say,oh my gosh, if I'd have been
(19:18):
pregnant and nothing, justpregnant all the time.
Yeah, working at the house,would I've been like that?
I don't know, you gotta putyourself in other people's shoes
because I don't know?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
because you love babies and you love kids.
I don't think you would havebeen that way.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Oh, I would have never done that with my kids.
As a matter of fact, that was abig thing, because mama would
call and she'd talk about I needto whip Stacy or this or that,
and I just told her.
I said, if you think?
I'm ever going to treat my kidslike you treated me never never
.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, now you also said there was another side to
your mom, where she would justgo and she would preach the
Bible.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
She did Mama, even though in her later years she
drank like a fish, but she wouldput you down if you would drink
and she preached the Bible butshe didn't go to church, and it
would be oh girl, you're goingto give an account for your sins
.
Right now there's a mark goingon me because of you, and when
(20:23):
you get 12 years old, all thosemarks are going to be on you a
sin.
You will go to hell and beg fora drop of water to be put on
your tongue.
And that well, elisa, I was akid and I wasn't 12 years old
yet.
And that's when I found theLord, because I used to go into
(20:45):
the woods and I would sit thereon a stump or a log or whatever
and cry and cry and cry.
Please, god, let me die beforeI'm 12 years old, because I
don't want all those marks goingon me.
And that's when I got peace andI just felt like he's always
been there for me and that'swhat I needed.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Going outside and finding God.
That's kind of how it works forme too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's when I feel like I stillfeel like that.
You told me that that momentthat she beat you with a fire
poker and you went out to thewoods that you grew up in, that
moment I did.
So what about, like today, wewould have the family children's
(21:27):
service that would come out andinvestigate.
Did any of that ever happen?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
They did and I was probably too young to know a lot
.
But we lived up on the HickoryHighway and they would come.
But Mama was like a Jekyll andHyde.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You know they would.
So she knew how to play thegame.
Yeah, she knew, because, see,you can't be the kid with the
piece of stove wood and pulltheir hair out and stuff.
And then I was in the eighthgrade and then me go to school
and Mr Smith or somebody saidChristine, where'd you get all
those bruises?
I go, mama beat me with a pieceof stove wood, uh-huh Well, and
(22:13):
I'm pretty sure they sent themout quite often because mama
would say how bad we were, wewouldn't help her do nothing.
But but I think they knew,elisa, I think they knew.
And then you could go likethere was a story at the end of
our road, mr Bertie Stewart andDave, and they knew what was
going on.
A lot of people knew what wasgoing on.
but you just mess in otherpeople's family life you know,
(22:38):
not in those days, right.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So you made the statement that when we were
talking beforehand about youfelt you always felt God's
protection over you.
Can you explain a little bitabout that?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
I always, I'll never forget, when I still lived at
the brickyard Now, this had tobe before.
I was seven years old.
I had this dream and it wassuch a vivid dream.
But there was this big wall offire and my family was over here
.
But I couldn't get through thatfire to get to my family.
And there's still somethingabout that dream that bothers me
(23:14):
.
I don't know if it's separationor what it was, but he's just
always been.
He does not answer my prayersall the time, you know that.
But they say it's whatever'sthe best for us.
It changes things around and wego another direction, and I do
(23:35):
believe that yeah, because hisways are not his ways, that's
right so I'll stick to that andI still trust him he'll take
care of me and I've never, likeJerry and I are married years we
never worried about financesand stuff, you know, because I
(23:55):
was never without a nickel tospend, but I just feel like God
always took care of me yeah, sohow did your family situation
change after that day that youfelt like you grew up?
Well, like I told you, I didn'tstay home much anymore, Like,
okay, I would try.
This was high school and, oh mygosh, I wanted to play
(24:18):
basketball for Mr Roseman so bad.
But, Mama would go to the end ofthe road and get on the phone
and she would call at the timeit was Celeste Hinkle, because
it went to a high school tellthem that I was this whore and I
was sleeping with all thebasketball boys and the football
boys and all this kind of stuff.
So it was just all the time.
(24:40):
So then, Carolyn Jones, shesays, Christine, I'll go and we
don't live far from you, sowe'll just bring you home every
time.
Well, I'll go and we don't livefar from you, so we'll just
bring you home every time.
Well, she might be out therewith a rock or something going
to throw a break a windshield.
You couldn't, I couldn't doanything, I couldn't do anything
.
So I lived with Dorothy and thenI lived with my sister, my
(25:01):
older sister.
Then I lived because she hadDavid, a little boy.
So I helped babysit and cleanher house and stuff.
And then I went to Kernersvillewith the first cousin and
tended to her two little girls,Mary and Martha.
And then I went to Concord andtended to Richard and Betty's
little girl, Donna Duck.
And so you see, that's why Idon't know my baby sister,
(25:24):
Debbie, because I wasn't there,why I don't know, my baby sister
, daddy, because I wasn't there.
So then when I would come home,just like the phone calls to
the high school and whatnot.
I know I would do my ironing andmama throw it out.
It it just wasn't good, it justwas awful.
Or putting that, putting thatuh pearlled knife to your throat
(25:48):
, or standing outside to yourtoes or frostbit waiting on
daddy to get home, or sleepingin an old, cold car, I mean all
of those things there.
I think that's why God's beenso good to me.
Do you know that I really feellike that.
That me growing up like that.
God has shown me another way,like being married.
(26:11):
That's the happiest years of mylife, and with my grandbabies.
I just think that's a gift hegave me yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And the fact that you went through all this and
you're able to share with otherpeople and you're able to
identify with other people, likehow did it impact growing up
like this?
Like how do you think itimpacted your teaching?
Because we taught some reallyhard, hard kids together.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I think that's where I was meant to be, because I
could understand those kids whenthey tell me stuff and no
matter what, elisa, I used tosit and listen to Tripp cry.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's Christine's grandson.
Yeah, my grandson.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Because of the lifestyle of his mama and daddy.
But anyway, no matter what,those children want their real
mama and daddy and I don't careif they beat these kids, I don't
care what they've done to thesekids.
These kids want their mama anddaddy and they want them
(27:17):
together.
They don't care about all thatstuff and that's where I was
meant to be.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, you said something real interesting to me
that makes so much sense, andit was about love.
Do you remember the statement?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
I don't know, I say so much.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Oh, because you were, because I grew up in a very
loving family, and so it's hardfor me to wrap my head around
what all he went through and youtold me I was never told I love
you, I was never given a hug, Iwas never anything.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
You know, yeah, I was just.
I'll never forget.
When I was 16, Mama was makingbirthday cakes for the children
who had passed, but she neveronce made me a birthday cake.
It was just like, and you know,I don't know if I felt love or
not.
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I was just so that's it you told me.
How do you know it?
How do you miss something younever even had?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Exactly, so when I started living with other people
who were not my family, I wasshown more love than I had ever
been shown in my family.
But, elisa, in the meantime ofme staying with this cousin and
that cousin and this cousinbabysitting those kids, that was
(28:41):
not a piece of cake, becauseyou knew that if you didn't walk
the line and obey their rules,they'd just send you back home.
Well, what did I have to goback home to?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Mm-hmm, yeah, so you kind of learned to play their
game.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You had to, you had to, and this took me many years,
many years.
Quit pleasing everybody.
You can't please everybody,you've got to be who you are,
yeah, and that took a long time,even through married years.
You know you want to pleaseyour husband and you've got your
children, but you come to apoint where I'm okay, I like me,
(29:18):
I'm a pretty damn good person,yeah.
You come to that, yeah, and soI do feel like I was and I would
never abuse a child never.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So you quit school when you were in the 11th grade.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yep, I was working at the sock mill in Catawba but I
couldn't live at home and I wasrenting a room at that time from
the Pierces.
Patsy Pierced them and theylived down toward the brickyard
and mama was calling thebasketball and all that crap.
So I just said too much.
Well, my sister came in fromNebraska, bug the other nutty
(29:56):
one, sorry about that she'sstill alive.
No.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
No, okay.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And she was she's about like Mama, oh, okay.
But she said, Chris, won't yougo back with us and you can keep
Tammy and go back to school?
Wow, I was ecstatic.
I wanted to go back to school,at least, I hated quitting
school.
So we went to Nebraska.
I went back to school, startedthe 11th grade all over again
(30:26):
and it was nice.
I liked that school and Ifinished those two years, went
one year to college because Igot a scholarship.
But in the meantime my sister,her and her husband, I mean it
was constant.
It was constant chaos.
He owned a big farm, pintobeans and all that stuff.
(30:48):
Well, I never knew if I wasgoing to get to go to school.
I didn't know why.
I didn't have my driver'slicense because I couldn't get a
birth certificate, so I'd haveto drive her big old car to
school, scared to death.
The officer was going to stopme, which he did stop me one
time, but he didn't ask me formy license and just scared,
(31:10):
nervous all the time.
Well, then she and her husbandsplit up and we moved to an
apartment in Medicare.
Then she dated all these guysand all this kind of stuff, and
then Walt came back and he movedinto the apartment with us.
Well, she got PO'd again.
Well, she got PO'd again.
She came to North Carolina andshe told Mama and everybody that
(31:37):
I was sleeping with Walt andjust all kinds of awful stuff.
Elisa, oh my gosh.
But in the meantime, when sheleft that day, I worked at
Military Cafe and Ruth Brackmanowned that restaurant and she
was so good to me so she broughther car over and she said
Christine Packard thinks you'regoing to live with me.
I loved her, uh-huh.
So that's who I stayed with.
(31:58):
From then on I stayed with Ruthand Bug.
She's just like Mama, she'sawful.
Was she that way to her kids?
She was not nice to Tammy.
Tammy passed away last year andTammy says I was born with two
crazy parents.
That's the way They'd tear up ahouse or she'd drive through
(32:20):
Scott's Bluff swinging cowmanure everywhere.
It was just a fight.
But for her to lie like that anddo stuff like that, then I had
another sister, linda, at thebeach.
She kind of fell into that.
So you know, elisa, you don'thate each other.
But you learn in your familywho you can trust and you can't
(32:46):
trust everybody.
You can trust God.
You can't trust everybody.
You can trust God, you can'ttrust everybody.
My sister, dorothy, and I toldyou I miss her much.
My oldest sister, I could her, Iloved her, but rather other
than Desi's deaf and Debbie'sdeaf and James Robert.
He passed away but he was deaf.
And then I have a brother thatlives up at the lake, johnny.
(33:08):
He's not dead but I loved him.
But mama was really mean to himtoo, because she almost killed
him with a butcher knife afterJerry died and she always called
him a murderer and I, it wasbad, yeah, it was bad.
And then I have this sister.
She goes.
Well, you know, it's like shelived in a totally different
(33:32):
world than I lived in.
Well, we won't talk about that.
Well, no, we're not doing that.
Living in denial, yeah.
But now mama and linda werevery close and I always do
respect linda because she tookmama when mama got older and she
(33:52):
and her husband.
They helped mama and they tookcare of her at myrtle beach and
I was.
I was thankful for that becauselinda could tell mama what to
do and what's what and mamawouldn't get mad at her.
But boy, don't let me do that.
Yeah, so I appreciated that.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah.
So how'd your mother become inher older years?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
She got a little nicer One time we were in the
car.
Linda come out with the F wordyeah, mama goes.
Oh my goodness, something aboutthe language in your mouth,
Linda goes well.
I don't see why that bothersyou, because you're the one that
(34:36):
taught me how to say it.
Mama was like this hypocriteyeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
But she didn't say it .
Speaker 3 (34:44):
But she was still bad , Elisa.
But she didn't see it.
But she was still bad, elisa,and she would, if you would go
over and visit Mama, would sneakoutside the house and sneak
around and then she'd come incussing and raising cane to cuss
.
I heard you saying this, youknow, it was just bad.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, it was bad all the time.
Did she ever apologize?
Never.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Never, never, never.
You know, shanda gets reallyaggravated, but just like one
night my kids were there.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Do you feel?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
like writing to Shanda.
My daughter and I was cookingspaghetti for Mom and Daddy and
we were going to have dinner.
I said, mom, if you will, willyou go in there and turn the
bathtub on?
We'll get the kids in there andget their bath before dinner.
Mom comes back and says how doyou turn the bathtub on?
(35:39):
You just lift up Lisa.
And I got aggravated because,mama, you just lift up on it.
But it was like she didn't.
I don't know, the brain cellsor something didn't work you
know how could you not?
know how I mean by this timethey did have a bathroom and all
(36:02):
that Run water.
Yeah, they did.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
But I just had that, my daughter.
You cannot.
At least, what I want to say isthis you cannot blame or hate
people whose brain does not worklike yours.
You know what I'm saying?
It's sort of like the Biblesays if you know it's a sin and
(36:30):
you do it, it's a sin.
Know it's a sin and you do it,it's a sin.
But if you don't know thatthat's a sin and you do it then,
you're not held accountable, doyou see, and it's kind of like
that.
If you, I mean she would tellyou no matter what, oh, I never
did that.
Oh, I never did that.
(36:51):
But now my baby sister, debbiethe deaf one, I don't think
she's ever got over it, really.
Mama choked her all the timeand beat her.
She graduated from GallaudetCollege and she lives here now,
but uh-uh, I don't think she'sever.
(37:12):
And then she feels sad becauseshe's the baby and she says
y'all are all going to diesooner than me and I'm going to
be left here with you know, justby myself.
Yeah, but I don't think Debbieever.
And deaf people are different,you know, I don't think she ever
understood why Mama did that.
(37:33):
And I think why Mama did thatto her is because Mama was
jealous of the relationship thatDebbie had with Daddy, because
for Daddy that was his baby girland he wouldn't let anything
happen to her.
And I think that's what it was,plus the fact I think a little
bit of Mama was jealous of meand Daddy Because I worked in
(37:55):
the garden, I hauled inwatermelons and I did all that,
but she was really ugly about ityeah.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So anybody that had a close relationship with your
dad she just resented.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
So how did you decide you were going to be different
when you became a mother?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
I didn't decide.
You know, I never understoodhow, when you grow up and you
see stuff as being so bad andyou realize when I grow up, I am
never, I will never be in amess like this again and that's
(38:40):
what I used to say all the timewhen mama be beating me and
stuff like that, or beating mylittle brothers and sisters.
Never, when I grow up, it'llnever be this way and I meant it
at least.
Yeah, never.
Now did I?
Just through determination?
Yeah, well, and I neverunderstood it, because I've even
had kids in school and on thebus they'll say Miss Millip,
(39:03):
when I grow up I'm never goingto do drugs.
Miss Millip, when I grow up,I'm never going to do this.
And Lisa, the first thing youfind out they are doing exactly
like their parents.
But whatever I had was in meand I guess god gave it to me
because that was in me.
I didn't learn anything.
Now don't, don't think that Ididn't my kids and don't think
(39:26):
that they wouldn't tell you yeah, mama abused us and now, it's
just out of jest, yeah, yeah but, I didn't like getting
spankings, yeah I didn't either,but I knew my mama loved me.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Daddy didn't spank a whole lot.
Mama was the one that did thespankings at our house.
So how did you keep your faiththrough all of that?
Speaker 3 (39:55):
I've just always had it.
I mean, I've just neverquestioned it.
You know, your faith issomething.
Well, god is something and Ibelieve in God.
Mm-hmm, you know, sometimes,elisa, I question the Bible.
Sometimes, yeah, the Bibletells you it's okay to question,
because that's how you learn tosearch and search for more he
(40:18):
who has?
Ears and I still I don't know.
I'm just going to wait until Iget to heaven, then I'll find
out all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
All right.
So growing up, did y'all go tochurch?
We went to the holiness.
Oh wait, yeah, you told me youwent to the Holy, but we went.
Your parents didn't go, maybeevery once in a while.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I don't ever remember Daddy going to church, but and
then neighbors would come andget us and they took us to New
Bethany, they took us to Bibleschool, you know, and that's all
we knew.
But Mama didn't, and then therest of my family, they did not
go to church and let me say aminute.
Dorothy didn't go to church.
(41:01):
I think baxter went to church.
Buggy went to church.
They didn't go to church andthen my deaf the deaf kids.
Now, debbie goes to church.
She goes to that front streetthing down there.
They got interpreters.
Bessie, she did go to church,but she don't anymore.
(41:22):
So church wasn't a major partof it.
And the church at the Brickyard.
Today it would be calledPentecostal, but in those days
it was called the HolinessChurch.
I guess your prayer life keptyou going Well.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I just talked to God.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
all the time he's like, he's right beside me and
he's my friend and sometimes Ilaugh at him and I think
sometimes he laughs at me too.
Yeah, I'm not a good prayer, Ican tell you, and I do not, like
, I don't want to be called onthe church to do a prayer yeah
the public prayer I did not,I'll go with that thing, go into
(42:02):
the closet and pray, if that'swhat you want to do, because I
talked to him, just like I'msitting here talking to you, you
know, just like the other dayin that truck, and I felt so bad
and I would say, god, I justwant to cry.
What can we do, you know?
And then I decided to leaveMm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah.
So what's your favorite verseor book in the Bible?
The?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
23rd Psalm.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I got a lot.
I like them all.
Yeah, so what about that sticksout the most?
Why that one?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Well, that he leads us, I like them all, yeah, so
what about that sticks out themost?
Why that one?
Well, that he leads us, I likethat.
And yea, though I walk throughthe valley of the shadow of
death, I will fear no evil.
You know when I was younger atleast, I feared death and I
don't.
Now it's the getting over Sortof.
I mean, you look a little bitforward to it, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Oh, I know, I know you get so tired of I mean I'm
only in my 50s, but you just getso out to the age now.
I'm so tired of losing people.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Are you?
That's the way Stacy is, y'allare probably around about the
same age and he says, mama, I'mlosing so many of my classmates.
You know, and I think what itdoes, it brings reality home to
him to realize your life isgetting shorter and shorter.
You need to start.
You know, my life was kind ofinto, it was into stages that I
(43:31):
went through getting married,having my babies.
Then in my 40s well, 30s, 35 Ibegan to realize, you know, I'm
not going to live forever.
I need to, like, quit smoking,and, and I I did that and then
started teaching to gear myselftoward my end of life years.
And so now I'm not wealthy butI don't have to worry about, you
(43:54):
know, with my pension fromschool and my social security I
do okay.
And I got my kids.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yes, yep, and.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
I got, my church I got my kids.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
There's one other note that I took and you
addressed self-pity.
Can't do that.
No, you said you never had pityon yourself.
No, what all you went through.
You cannot do that.
I can't imagine the darkness,that hole you would probably go
into.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I've been there.
I have been into a depressionso bad before that I didn't feel
like I was good for my kids orgood for Jerry or anything else.
I just would rather end it allI've been there.
So I went to the doctor.
He just gives you this drugs,something.
(44:40):
It just made you drunk.
When you woke up the nextmorning you were still depressed
.
So I said we're gonna help this.
So I'm not ever letting myselfget there ever.
Yeah, at least that peopledon't think straight when they
get.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Nope, but it's life changing when you do finally get
out of that hole.
It is.
It changes your life completely.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Did you get there with your mother and everybody
in your family?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah, that's why I started this podcast.
Good, don't ever get thereagain.
That's why I'm doing this forpeople to share their stories of
how they got out of that hole,to help others out and you know,
you just have to.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
I was praying, I said okay, god, I quit, you got it.
And this peace came over me.
It was just like okay andnothing happened to.
Lisa, but he heard me and youknow he listened to me.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
He wrapped you in his love and protection and he's
got you.
Hey, I want to thank you forsharing your story today and uh
I know that you have impactedothers and I want to do this
again.
Okay, I don't know.
I was thinking maybe we couldjust like this time, just talk
(45:56):
about Bible stuff or whatever,because I know during planning
we would get in these our workdays, we would just get into
these awesome conversations justabout religion and just our
different viewpoints.
So I think that would be fun,that would be good, but yeah,
but thank you, christine, youare welcome.
Hi and welcome to another episode of Beyond
Existing.
I want to welcome a guest thatI've known for quite some time.
She is a strong woman with aneven stronger faith.
I've asked her to share herstory with you today.
Welcome, christine.
Thank you To the podcast.
Christine and I have taughttogether for many, many years,
(00:35):
and teaching is just not thesame without her.
I miss her so much and justthrough the years, she has told
so many stories and I justwanted the public just to hear
them, because they're suchtremendous stories of overcoming
, triumphing, keeping your faith.
(00:56):
Now, christine, you grew up.
Tell us how you grew up.
I grew up pretty poor.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Country yeah, pretty poor up.
Tell us how you grew up.
I grew up pretty poor country.
Yeah, pretty poor.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Uh, number eight out of the family of 12 and um never
knew I was poor.
Really, right, you know?
Speaker 3 (01:17):
yep, so you were born december 23rd 1945 my sister
told me it was so cold outsidethat the diapers froze on the
line and I still think thedoctor and my daddy hit the
moonshine because I didn't havea birth certificate.
But I was born at home.
(01:38):
I was born at the brickyardcommunity and then, when I was
about seven, we moved up onHickory Highway close to the old
weighing scales and we wereraised way down in the woods
about a mile or more, on theCatawba River really, which was
a good thing.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, yeah.
So can you tell the audiencewhat was it like living in the
Statesville Brickyard community?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
audience.
What was it like living in thestate's full brickyard community
?
Well, at that time that was, uh, that was a good place because
you had the company store, youhad the local church and it was
a community.
You didn't go outside of yourcommunity unless you happened to
go to town on a saturday orwhatnot.
You had everything you neededright there and we had the
(02:26):
community church.
The black culture would sit atthe back and, of course, the
whites would sit at the front,but the community was so that
the blacks were like a part ofmy family.
I was in their house as much asI was in mine.
A lot, you know.
And, um, the store hadeverything you needed.
(02:49):
Daddy worked at the brickyard.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
It was nice now, did your family have a car?
Speaker 3 (02:55):
no, we never had a car, we never had electricity,
we did not have have hot runningwater.
We always had an outside toilet, even when we moved up on the
Hickory Highway.
Like I say, we were dirt poor,I guess you could say, but we
(03:18):
lived on a semi-farm.
Daddy always killed a hog,daddy always fished, we always
had hams and bacon and stuff inthe smokehouse.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Mama milked the cow, so we were still well taken care
of, you know, uh-huh yep, Iremember when one time we were
teaching together and it was thefunniest story.
Do you remember the story ofyou were telling me how you were
telling the class about nothaving electricity?
And then you remember the daythat they brought electricity to
(03:51):
your house?
I do.
And one of the kids asked MissMiller, how did you know what to
do?
Do you remember that?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
They asked me so many questions Like did you have
spoons and forks?
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, and you said how did I know what to do?
Well, and you walked over thelight switch and you just turned
it on.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Oh dear, that was a happy time.
One of my older sisters hadgotten married and it didn't
work out and they had a housefull of furniture.
So Daddy took over the paymentson that house full of furniture
and one thing was aWestinghouse TV and I am telling
you we were in heaven.
I can still see that TV sittingthere.
(04:38):
We didn't have an antenna butwe ran the cord up and we hung a
coat hanger wrapped in tin foilon the wall.
Now that right there waselectricity to me.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, so your daddy was a
sharecropper.
But he worked at the brickyardtoo, so he did both Okay, all
right, and you were poor, butyou never felt poor because
everybody else was in the same.
They were poor too.
Yeah, condition, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
so y'all were like true community shared with each
other and yeah, I mean we livedtogether blacks, whites,
whatever you know and we didshare.
Yeah, I've got some wonderfulmemories of some of those
families.
I was always amazed that thisone family I went to they put
(05:31):
their curling iron on the fireand they would curl their hair
was that hot curling.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
I was just amazed at that oh, wow because, yeah, wow,
right, so you said there were12 children and you were the
eighth.
Okay, now I know there wastragedy.
Do you mind sharing a littlebit about what happened to the
baby?
Speaker 3 (05:55):
The first was that mama lost the baby.
He was three months old and Inever did find out why he died.
And then my sister, peggy.
She was in the fourth grade andwe were in the bed on one
Sunday morning and she said now,whoever's the quietest?
(06:17):
I think we were going to go tochurch.
We had friends of the churchthat would come and get us, and
Mom and Daddy didn't go, butthey would take us to church.
And so, uh, peggy was dressed,she had a little wool skirt on
and we didn't have a stove, wehad an open fireplace.
So she said whoever's thequietest, I'm gonna come and get
you up first.
(06:37):
And of course we had a littlebrother, johnny, and he we
petted him because we were thegirls, you know.
So she got Johnny up and,although I didn't see it, it was
her stooping by the fire, tyinghis shoelaces, and the back of
her skirt caught on fire.
And so when she realized it, Iguess she went running out the
(06:58):
door, which nowadays we trainour kids to stop, drop and roll.
Well, mama and Daddy were in thebed.
So mama got up and went runningafter peggy and beat the fire
off of her and everything.
Mama burned her hands, real bad, and we didn't have a car so we
had to depend on go to the endof our road, which I thought was
(07:19):
a mile, and ask somebody tocome and take us to a hospital
or something.
So they did.
And then the next thing I knowthere's this black car coming
down the road and Peggy had died.
And I just always remember thatblack car coming down the road.
(07:43):
So she passed.
I was in the first grade andshe was in the fourth grade and
then, when I was in the eighthgrade, I had a little brother
who drowned.
He was five years old.
He would have gone to the deafschool that year because they
have to go several years at atime to learn the sign language
(08:03):
and all that.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Now you had several.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
You had two or three, four siblings that were dead
anyway.
Um, he and my other littlebrother, johnny, they had been
playing in the woods and they,jerry wayne, had the little red
wagon and he had his cowboy gun,he had, daddy's, those oshkosh
bandanas and you know, and atree had fallen and that was
their foxhole and but jerry fellin that foxhole and it had
water in it and, uh, we didn'thave the car.
(08:36):
It maybe if we'd had a car, youknow, we could have got him to
the hospital, or if daddy hadknown the resuscitation, you
know, but we can't live on.
What ifs that happened, youknow, but that was just really
rough, oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Now you share a story about the dirt road that y'all
lived on and how it always feltkind of eerie to you?
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Yeah, we would come down the road, and then there
was one spot in the road thatwent around a curve and it was
woods on both sides and it wasalways frigid in that curve, and
so we would run as fast as wecould to get through that.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Yeah, and that's where Jerry Wayne.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
No, you'd come on down the road, and one night
mama was sending us up to jameshollis, who was the man who
owned the farm where we lived.
I don't know why she wassending us, but I know we didn't
want to go because, you know,mama was another story.
Yeah and uh, this, this ball offire.
(09:42):
It rolls out of the woods, andso Linda and I, we were together
, and my sister tells the samestory.
So the people, they doubt it,but it wasn't.
And so if we tried to go aroundthis side, that ball would roll
, and if we tried to go aroundthis way, that ball would roll.
And it's where Jerry drowned.
However, I don't remember ifthe ball of fire was before he
(10:04):
drowned or after he drowned.
However, I don't remember ifthe ball of fire was before he
drowned or after he drowned.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
That's unbelievable.
Now, gary Walter was another,the baby.
He was the one who passed.
He was three months old.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Goodness, now, before Peggy passed, mom comes flying
out of the house one day and wehad the back porch and on one
side of the back porch was awell and we were probably I was
drawing water or something andMama throws her hands up over
her face and she says you knowwhat's wrong?
And she said that she had seenthe living room with flowers all
(10:45):
along the wall and a coffin soit's like she had a premonition.
Yes, but mama did that a lot,she saw things and that was
peggy, that was peggy's fear.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
So your mama would have premonitions a lot, a lot.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Did they often come true I don't know, because she
would tell you about growing upwhen she would see
jack-o'-lanterns and thesethings would try to lead her to
a ditch where it wasn't safe, oror this white thing was flying
through the air.
She just told all these thingsyou know, and she told them for
true.
So I don't know.
I think that I think thatpeople older than me really did
(11:24):
see omens and premonitions morethan we do.
We just don't take time toRight yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Don't take time in the whole spiritual realm to
even think about Right yeah, andyou know me.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I don't want to mess with anything like that, because
I don't know how to say this,but like I've always felt, like
it's a sin that I don't need tobe doing, yeah to delve into the
mystic and right, or to evenacknowledge those.
Yeah and in the ouija boardsand all that stuff, because I'll
never forget reading amityvillehorror.
I got that things out of myhouse and I have never read a
(12:01):
book like that again right, socan you tell people what it's
like?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
you said there were 12 children, and I would hear
you and Tana, who was anothershe was a co-worker she was the
10th of 10, so that's why herdad chose Tana for her name, but
I remember y'all explaining tome what it's like growing up in
a big family like you're notjust like one big family, you're
(12:27):
kind of it's kind of likegroups of siblings right, okay,
I can tell mine was threefamilies.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
So my oldest, dorothy , baxter bug.
They grew up and left home asfast as they could.
Bug we call her bug, but she'sthe only one who graduated,
she's the one that got marriedand did work out.
So they grew up and left.
Okay, then you had the deafchildren.
You had James Robert and DesiPeggy had burned Desi and James
(13:00):
Robert and then Jerry Wayne.
So I had those two who were atthe deaf school all the time.
And then you had me, johnny andLinda the three of us at home
at that time.
So that was us.
Then Mama had Jerry Wayne andthen she had Debbie, who was a
(13:20):
change.
Well, you know, you call them achange of life baby.
When you're going throughmenopause, it's easy to get
pregnant.
Yeah, so she had debbie.
So those two were deaf too.
They turned out deaf for somereason.
So, uh, now me I did.
After, maybe after the eighthgrade, I didn't stay home much
(13:42):
anymore because mama didn't likeme.
I hate to tell you, yeah, shejust did not like me.
So our family, now my deafbrothers and sisters, would come
home in the summertime, andthey were different because at
the deaf school I think they hadto compete for their space and
(14:02):
their items because I'm surethat other children would try to
take their things and stufflike that.
So when they would come home inthe summertime they were very
aggressive.
You know, I'll never forget mysister.
She just scratched my leg andthe blood came out because I
used her bobby pins.
But it's just so different.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
But you know, all in all, Elisaisa, I can't bet you
never grabbed a bobby pin again.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I didn't do hers again, but they were more
aggressive and I guess they hadto be.
You had to stop and think aboutit while they're like that,
very frustrating, right, yeah,but I will tell you this that,
because of mama being like shewas which was, I'm sure, bipolar
, some missing hormones orsomething, it was really bad my
(14:52):
family did not hate each other.
Yeah, you know, I love Johnnyand Linda and Debbie Mine.
I loved them.
And my older sister was like mymama.
I loved her.
So we didn't hate each otherlike some families do.
Yeah, yeah, because we knewwe'd been through so much.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, yeah, do you mind sharing a little bit about
your mama?
What Well, mama?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Yeah, mama Elisa, I don't know.
I started staying with myrelatives like high school age
and before that I saved mysister and her husband.
Her husband was a policeofficer, so they really took
care of me.
(15:41):
But like one weekend I camehome from Concord where I stayed
with Betty and Richard, myfirst cousins, and babysat their
little girl, donna Duck, andwent to school, and that was in
Concord at WRO Dell.
Well, I came home and the wholekitchen floor was wet and I go
oh my gosh, what happened inhere, mama, and she goes.
(16:01):
I almost killed that littlebitch, but she had choked Debbie
and Debbie wasn wasn'tbreathing.
So mama took a bucket of waterand threw it on her and then, uh
, to get jerry wayne out whenthey started walking.
Oh my god, elisa, she wouldbeat them to make them walk and
(16:24):
do stuff like that.
It was so bad so it was bad.
So I know at one point in timethey took Mama to Broughton for
some reason and they wanted tocommit Mama, but Daddy wouldn't
do it.
And so when you grow up, youlove the one that takes care of
(16:47):
you and loves you.
You know, and you never realize.
Well, you know they played apart in this too, something.
I mean, keep having thesechildren, and she abused them.
But this is your responsibilitytoo, and I never realized that.
I think I told you one night Ihad lost the cuff link.
We had gone to see the goat man.
(17:08):
My married sister took us.
Anyway, when Mama found out Ilost that cuff link, she was
beating me with a piece of stovewood in the poker.
Well, daddy was sitting at thekitchen table because he didn't
get off until 10 o'clock atnight and he was eating supper.
And so, as I'm lying there onthe floor, my head rolled that
way.
And I see, at night and he waseating supper.
(17:28):
And so, as I'm lying there onthe floor, my head rolled that
way and I see daddy, and he'seating.
And right then, the moment ofreality I'm going you're not
doing anything.
How could you do this?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
he's not trying to stop it or anything, watching
you get beat with a fire poker.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
I guess he was just so immune to it.
I don't know, I don't know.
You know?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I mean, they're your parents right, yeah, because
before that you just spoke sowell of him and I love daddy,
but I realize yeah when you'regrowing.
When you were younger and hewas a good daddy, yeah, but so
could you see her abuse, likethe more kids she had, did it
(18:10):
get worse.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Well, she would tie a brick around little Jerry's
neck and say she was going totake him to the river and drown
him.
And I'm going to tell yousomething when we even lived at
the brickyard, she would put uson top of the trunk with a
shotgun pointed at us.
I don't know why she neverlearned to shoot it, but I can
(18:34):
still see her up on the hickoryhighway and, um, she'd be saying
she was going to go drown alittle jerry and she had us all
lined up and I'm sitting therepraying, dear god, please let
her die.
Please let her die.
That's not good.
I mean, a child should neverthink that.
And I didn't hate her.
At least I still don't hate hertill this day.
(18:56):
Yeah, I just kind of feel sorryfor her, because now my
children, they get mad everytime you talk about it, because
they don't like to know thattheir mother was mistreated.
They didn't like her anyway.
But, um, I don't know mama'sjust.
And you know I'll stop and say,oh my gosh, if I'd have been
(19:18):
pregnant and nothing, justpregnant all the time.
Yeah, working at the house,would I've been like that?
I don't know, you gotta putyourself in other people's shoes
because I don't know?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
because you love babies and you love kids.
I don't think you would havebeen that way.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Oh, I would have never done that with my kids.
As a matter of fact, that was abig thing, because mama would
call and she'd talk about I needto whip Stacy or this or that,
and I just told her.
I said, if you think?
I'm ever going to treat my kidslike you treated me never never
.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yeah, now you also said there was another side to
your mom, where she would justgo and she would preach the
Bible.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
She did Mama, even though in her later years she
drank like a fish, but she wouldput you down if you would drink
and she preached the Bible butshe didn't go to church, and it
would be oh girl, you're goingto give an account for your sins
.
Right now there's a mark goingon me because of you, and when
(20:23):
you get 12 years old, all thosemarks are going to be on you a
sin.
You will go to hell and beg fora drop of water to be put on
your tongue.
And that well, elisa, I was akid and I wasn't 12 years old
yet.
And that's when I found theLord, because I used to go into
(20:45):
the woods and I would sit thereon a stump or a log or whatever
and cry and cry and cry.
Please, god, let me die beforeI'm 12 years old, because I
don't want all those marks goingon me.
And that's when I got peace andI just felt like he's always
been there for me and that'swhat I needed.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Going outside and finding God.
That's kind of how it works forme too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's when I feel like I stillfeel like that.
You told me that that momentthat she beat you with a fire
poker and you went out to thewoods that you grew up in, that
moment I did.
So what about, like today, wewould have the family children's
(21:27):
service that would come out andinvestigate.
Did any of that ever happen?
Speaker 3 (21:32):
They did and I was probably too young to know a lot
.
But we lived up on the HickoryHighway and they would come.
But Mama was like a Jekyll andHyde.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
You know they would.
So she knew how to play thegame.
Yeah, she knew, because, see,you can't be the kid with the
piece of stove wood and pulltheir hair out and stuff.
And then I was in the eighthgrade and then me go to school
and Mr Smith or somebody saidChristine, where'd you get all
those bruises?
I go, mama beat me with a pieceof stove wood, uh-huh Well, and
(22:13):
I'm pretty sure they sent themout quite often because mama
would say how bad we were, wewouldn't help her do nothing.
But but I think they knew,elisa, I think they knew.
And then you could go likethere was a story at the end of
our road, mr Bertie Stewart andDave, and they knew what was
going on.
A lot of people knew what wasgoing on.
but you just mess in otherpeople's family life you know,
(22:38):
not in those days, right.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
So you made the statement that when we were
talking beforehand about youfelt you always felt God's
protection over you.
Can you explain a little bitabout that?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
I always, I'll never forget, when I still lived at
the brickyard Now, this had tobe before.
I was seven years old.
I had this dream and it wassuch a vivid dream.
But there was this big wall offire and my family was over here
.
But I couldn't get through thatfire to get to my family.
And there's still somethingabout that dream that bothers me
(23:14):
.
I don't know if it's separationor what it was, but he's just
always been.
He does not answer my prayersall the time, you know that.
But they say it's whatever'sthe best for us.
It changes things around and wego another direction, and I do
(23:35):
believe that yeah, because hisways are not his ways, that's
right so I'll stick to that andI still trust him he'll take
care of me and I've never, likeJerry and I are married years we
never worried about financesand stuff, you know, because I
(23:55):
was never without a nickel tospend, but I just feel like God
always took care of me yeah, sohow did your family situation
change after that day that youfelt like you grew up?
Well, like I told you, I didn'tstay home much anymore, Like,
okay, I would try.
This was high school and, oh mygosh, I wanted to play
(24:18):
basketball for Mr Roseman so bad.
But, Mama would go to the end ofthe road and get on the phone
and she would call at the timeit was Celeste Hinkle, because
it went to a high school tellthem that I was this whore and I
was sleeping with all thebasketball boys and the football
boys and all this kind of stuff.
So it was just all the time.
(24:40):
So then, Carolyn Jones, shesays, Christine, I'll go and we
don't live far from you, sowe'll just bring you home every
time.
Well, I'll go and we don't livefar from you, so we'll just
bring you home every time.
Well, she might be out therewith a rock or something going
to throw a break a windshield.
You couldn't, I couldn't doanything, I couldn't do anything
.
So I lived with Dorothy and thenI lived with my sister, my
(25:01):
older sister.
Then I lived because she hadDavid, a little boy.
So I helped babysit and cleanher house and stuff.
And then I went to Kernersvillewith the first cousin and
tended to her two little girls,Mary and Martha.
And then I went to Concord andtended to Richard and Betty's
little girl, Donna Duck.
And so you see, that's why Idon't know my baby sister,
(25:24):
Debbie, because I wasn't there,why I don't know, my baby sister
, daddy, because I wasn't there.
So then when I would come home,just like the phone calls to
the high school and whatnot.
I know I would do my ironing andmama throw it out.
It it just wasn't good, it justwas awful.
Or putting that, putting thatuh pearlled knife to your throat
(25:48):
, or standing outside to yourtoes or frostbit waiting on
daddy to get home, or sleepingin an old, cold car, I mean all
of those things there.
I think that's why God's beenso good to me.
Do you know that I really feellike that.
That me growing up like that.
God has shown me another way,like being married.
(26:11):
That's the happiest years of mylife, and with my grandbabies.
I just think that's a gift hegave me yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
And the fact that you went through all this and
you're able to share with otherpeople and you're able to
identify with other people, likehow did it impact growing up
like this?
Like how do you think itimpacted your teaching?
Because we taught some reallyhard, hard kids together.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
I think that's where I was meant to be, because I
could understand those kids whenthey tell me stuff and no
matter what, elisa, I used tosit and listen to Tripp cry.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
That's Christine's grandson.
Yeah, my grandson.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Because of the lifestyle of his mama and daddy.
But anyway, no matter what,those children want their real
mama and daddy and I don't careif they beat these kids, I don't
care what they've done to thesekids.
These kids want their mama anddaddy and they want them
(27:17):
together.
They don't care about all thatstuff and that's where I was
meant to be.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Yeah, you said something real interesting to me
that makes so much sense, andit was about love.
Do you remember the statement?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
I don't know, I say so much.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Oh, because you were, because I grew up in a very
loving family, and so it's hardfor me to wrap my head around
what all he went through and youtold me I was never told I love
you, I was never given a hug, Iwas never anything.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
You know, yeah, I was just.
I'll never forget.
When I was 16, Mama was makingbirthday cakes for the children
who had passed, but she neveronce made me a birthday cake.
It was just like, and you know,I don't know if I felt love or
not.
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I was just so that's it you told me.
How do you know it?
How do you miss something younever even had?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Exactly, so when I started living with other people
who were not my family, I wasshown more love than I had ever
been shown in my family.
But, elisa, in the meantime ofme staying with this cousin and
that cousin and this cousinbabysitting those kids, that was
(28:41):
not a piece of cake, becauseyou knew that if you didn't walk
the line and obey their rules,they'd just send you back home.
Well, what did I have to goback home to?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Mm-hmm, yeah, so you kind of learned to play their
game.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You had to, you had to, and this took me many years,
many years.
Quit pleasing everybody.
You can't please everybody,you've got to be who you are,
yeah, and that took a long time,even through married years.
You know you want to pleaseyour husband and you've got your
children, but you come to apoint where I'm okay, I like me,
(29:18):
I'm a pretty damn good person,yeah.
You come to that, yeah, and soI do feel like I was and I would
never abuse a child never.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So you quit school when you were in the 11th grade.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
Yep, I was working at the sock mill in Catawba but I
couldn't live at home and I wasrenting a room at that time from
the Pierces.
Patsy Pierced them and theylived down toward the brickyard
and mama was calling thebasketball and all that crap.
So I just said too much.
Well, my sister came in fromNebraska, bug the other nutty
(29:56):
one, sorry about that she'sstill alive.
No.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
No, okay.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
And she was she's about like Mama, oh, okay.
But she said, Chris, won't yougo back with us and you can keep
Tammy and go back to school?
Wow, I was ecstatic.
I wanted to go back to school,at least, I hated quitting
school.
So we went to Nebraska.
I went back to school, startedthe 11th grade all over again
(30:26):
and it was nice.
I liked that school and Ifinished those two years, went
one year to college because Igot a scholarship.
But in the meantime my sister,her and her husband, I mean it
was constant.
It was constant chaos.
He owned a big farm, pintobeans and all that stuff.
(30:48):
Well, I never knew if I wasgoing to get to go to school.
I didn't know why.
I didn't have my driver'slicense because I couldn't get a
birth certificate, so I'd haveto drive her big old car to
school, scared to death.
The officer was going to stopme, which he did stop me one
time, but he didn't ask me formy license and just scared,
(31:10):
nervous all the time.
Well, then she and her husbandsplit up and we moved to an
apartment in Medicare.
Then she dated all these guysand all this kind of stuff, and
then Walt came back and he movedinto the apartment with us.
Well, she got PO'd again.
Well, she got PO'd again.
She came to North Carolina andshe told Mama and everybody that
(31:37):
I was sleeping with Walt andjust all kinds of awful stuff.
Elisa, oh my gosh.
But in the meantime, when sheleft that day, I worked at
Military Cafe and Ruth Brackmanowned that restaurant and she
was so good to me so she broughther car over and she said
Christine Packard thinks you'regoing to live with me.
I loved her, uh-huh.
So that's who I stayed with.
(31:58):
From then on I stayed with Ruthand Bug.
She's just like Mama, she'sawful.
Was she that way to her kids?
She was not nice to Tammy.
Tammy passed away last year andTammy says I was born with two
crazy parents.
That's the way They'd tear up ahouse or she'd drive through
(32:20):
Scott's Bluff swinging cowmanure everywhere.
It was just a fight.
But for her to lie like that anddo stuff like that, then I had
another sister, linda, at thebeach.
She kind of fell into that.
So you know, elisa, you don'thate each other.
But you learn in your familywho you can trust and you can't
(32:46):
trust everybody.
You can trust God.
You can't trust everybody.
You can trust God, you can'ttrust everybody.
My sister, dorothy, and I toldyou I miss her much.
My oldest sister, I could her, Iloved her, but rather other
than Desi's deaf and Debbie'sdeaf and James Robert.
He passed away but he was deaf.
And then I have a brother thatlives up at the lake, johnny.
(33:08):
He's not dead but I loved him.
But mama was really mean to himtoo, because she almost killed
him with a butcher knife afterJerry died and she always called
him a murderer and I, it wasbad, yeah, it was bad.
And then I have this sister.
She goes.
Well, you know, it's like shelived in a totally different
(33:32):
world than I lived in.
Well, we won't talk about that.
Well, no, we're not doing that.
Living in denial, yeah.
But now mama and linda werevery close and I always do
respect linda because she tookmama when mama got older and she
(33:52):
and her husband.
They helped mama and they tookcare of her at myrtle beach and
I was.
I was thankful for that becauselinda could tell mama what to
do and what's what and mamawouldn't get mad at her.
But boy, don't let me do that.
Yeah, so I appreciated that.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah.
So how'd your mother become inher older years?
Speaker 3 (34:16):
She got a little nicer One time we were in the
car.
Linda come out with the F wordyeah, mama goes.
Oh my goodness, something aboutthe language in your mouth,
Linda goes well.
I don't see why that bothersyou, because you're the one that
(34:36):
taught me how to say it.
Mama was like this hypocriteyeah.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
But she didn't say it .
Speaker 3 (34:44):
But she was still bad , Elisa.
But she didn't see it.
But she was still bad, elisa,and she would, if you would go
over and visit Mama, would sneakoutside the house and sneak
around and then she'd come incussing and raising cane to cuss
.
I heard you saying this, youknow, it was just bad.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, it was bad all the time.
Did she ever apologize?
Never.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Never, never, never.
You know, shanda gets reallyaggravated, but just like one
night my kids were there.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Do you feel?
Speaker 3 (35:17):
like writing to Shanda.
My daughter and I was cookingspaghetti for Mom and Daddy and
we were going to have dinner.
I said, mom, if you will, willyou go in there and turn the
bathtub on?
We'll get the kids in there andget their bath before dinner.
Mom comes back and says how doyou turn the bathtub on?
(35:39):
You just lift up Lisa.
And I got aggravated because,mama, you just lift up on it.
But it was like she didn't.
I don't know, the brain cellsor something didn't work you
know how could you not?
know how I mean by this timethey did have a bathroom and all
(36:02):
that Run water.
Yeah, they did.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
But I just had that, my daughter.
You cannot.
At least, what I want to say isthis you cannot blame or hate
people whose brain does not worklike yours.
You know what I'm saying?
It's sort of like the Biblesays if you know it's a sin and
(36:30):
you do it, it's a sin.
Know it's a sin and you do it,it's a sin.
But if you don't know thatthat's a sin and you do it then,
you're not held accountable, doyou see, and it's kind of like
that.
If you, I mean she would tellyou no matter what, oh, I never
did that.
Oh, I never did that.
(36:51):
But now my baby sister, debbiethe deaf one, I don't think
she's ever got over it, really.
Mama choked her all the timeand beat her.
She graduated from GallaudetCollege and she lives here now,
but uh-uh, I don't think she'sever.
(37:12):
And then she feels sad becauseshe's the baby and she says
y'all are all going to diesooner than me and I'm going to
be left here with you know, justby myself.
Yeah, but I don't think Debbieever.
And deaf people are different,you know, I don't think she ever
understood why Mama did that.
(37:33):
And I think why Mama did thatto her is because Mama was
jealous of the relationship thatDebbie had with Daddy, because
for Daddy that was his baby girland he wouldn't let anything
happen to her.
And I think that's what it was,plus the fact I think a little
bit of Mama was jealous of meand Daddy Because I worked in
(37:55):
the garden, I hauled inwatermelons and I did all that,
but she was really ugly about ityeah.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
So anybody that had a close relationship with your
dad she just resented.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
So how did you decide you were going to be different
when you became a mother?
Speaker 3 (38:17):
I didn't decide.
You know, I never understoodhow, when you grow up and you
see stuff as being so bad andyou realize when I grow up, I am
never, I will never be in amess like this again and that's
(38:40):
what I used to say all the timewhen mama be beating me and
stuff like that, or beating mylittle brothers and sisters.
Never, when I grow up, it'llnever be this way and I meant it
at least.
Yeah, never.
Now did I?
Just through determination?
Yeah, well, and I neverunderstood it, because I've even
had kids in school and on thebus they'll say Miss Millip,
(39:03):
when I grow up I'm never goingto do drugs.
Miss Millip, when I grow up,I'm never going to do this.
And Lisa, the first thing youfind out they are doing exactly
like their parents.
But whatever I had was in meand I guess god gave it to me
because that was in me.
I didn't learn anything.
Now don't, don't think that Ididn't my kids and don't think
(39:26):
that they wouldn't tell you yeah, mama abused us and now, it's
just out of jest, yeah, yeah but, I didn't like getting
spankings, yeah I didn't either,but I knew my mama loved me.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Daddy didn't spank a whole lot.
Mama was the one that did thespankings at our house.
So how did you keep your faiththrough all of that?
Speaker 3 (39:55):
I've just always had it.
I mean, I've just neverquestioned it.
You know, your faith issomething.
Well, god is something and Ibelieve in God.
Mm-hmm, you know, sometimes,elisa, I question the Bible.
Sometimes, yeah, the Bibletells you it's okay to question,
because that's how you learn tosearch and search for more he
(40:18):
who has?
Ears and I still I don't know.
I'm just going to wait until Iget to heaven, then I'll find
out all this stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
All right.
So growing up, did y'all go tochurch?
We went to the holiness.
Oh wait, yeah, you told me youwent to the Holy, but we went.
Your parents didn't go, maybeevery once in a while.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I don't ever remember Daddy going to church, but and
then neighbors would come andget us and they took us to New
Bethany, they took us to Bibleschool, you know, and that's all
we knew.
But Mama didn't, and then therest of my family, they did not
go to church and let me say aminute.
Dorothy didn't go to church.
(41:01):
I think baxter went to church.
Buggy went to church.
They didn't go to church andthen my deaf the deaf kids.
Now, debbie goes to church.
She goes to that front streetthing down there.
They got interpreters.
Bessie, she did go to church,but she don't anymore.
(41:22):
So church wasn't a major partof it.
And the church at the Brickyard.
Today it would be calledPentecostal, but in those days
it was called the HolinessChurch.
I guess your prayer life keptyou going Well.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I just talked to God.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
all the time he's like, he's right beside me and
he's my friend and sometimes Ilaugh at him and I think
sometimes he laughs at me too.
Yeah, I'm not a good prayer, Ican tell you, and I do not, like
, I don't want to be called onthe church to do a prayer yeah
the public prayer I did not,I'll go with that thing, go into
(42:02):
the closet and pray, if that'swhat you want to do, because I
talked to him, just like I'msitting here talking to you, you
know, just like the other dayin that truck, and I felt so bad
and I would say, god, I justwant to cry.
What can we do, you know?
And then I decided to leaveMm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Yeah.
So what's your favorite verseor book in the Bible?
The?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
23rd Psalm.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
I got a lot.
I like them all.
Yeah, so what about that sticksout the most?
Why that one?
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Well, that he leads us, I like them all, yeah, so
what about that sticks out themost?
Why that one?
Well, that he leads us, I likethat.
And yea, though I walk throughthe valley of the shadow of
death, I will fear no evil.
You know when I was younger atleast, I feared death and I
don't.
Now it's the getting over Sortof.
I mean, you look a little bitforward to it, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Oh, I know, I know you get so tired of I mean I'm
only in my 50s, but you just getso out to the age now.
I'm so tired of losing people.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Are you?
That's the way Stacy is, y'allare probably around about the
same age and he says, mama, I'mlosing so many of my classmates.
You know, and I think what itdoes, it brings reality home to
him to realize your life isgetting shorter and shorter.
You need to start.
You know, my life was kind ofinto, it was into stages that I
(43:31):
went through getting married,having my babies.
Then in my 40s well, 30s, 35 Ibegan to realize, you know, I'm
not going to live forever.
I need to, like, quit smoking,and, and I I did that and then
started teaching to gear myselftoward my end of life years.
And so now I'm not wealthy butI don't have to worry about, you
(43:54):
know, with my pension fromschool and my social security I
do okay.
And I got my kids.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Yes, yep, and.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
I got, my church I got my kids.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
There's one other note that I took and you
addressed self-pity.
Can't do that.
No, you said you never had pityon yourself.
No, what all you went through.
You cannot do that.
I can't imagine the darkness,that hole you would probably go
into.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I've been there.
I have been into a depressionso bad before that I didn't feel
like I was good for my kids orgood for Jerry or anything else.
I just would rather end it allI've been there.
So I went to the doctor.
He just gives you this drugs,something.
(44:40):
It just made you drunk.
When you woke up the nextmorning you were still depressed
.
So I said we're gonna help this.
So I'm not ever letting myselfget there ever.
Yeah, at least that peopledon't think straight when they
get.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Nope, but it's life changing when you do finally get
out of that hole.
It is.
It changes your life completely.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
Did you get there with your mother and everybody
in your family?
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Yeah, that's why I started this podcast.
Good, don't ever get thereagain.
That's why I'm doing this forpeople to share their stories of
how they got out of that hole,to help others out and you know,
you just have to.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
I was praying, I said okay, god, I quit, you got it.
And this peace came over me.
It was just like okay andnothing happened to.
Lisa, but he heard me and youknow he listened to me.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
He wrapped you in his love and protection and he's
got you.
Hey, I want to thank you forsharing your story today and uh
I know that you have impactedothers and I want to do this
again.
Okay, I don't know.
I was thinking maybe we couldjust like this time, just talk
(45:56):
about Bible stuff or whatever,because I know during planning
we would get in these our workdays, we would just get into
these awesome conversations justabout religion and just our
different viewpoints.
So I think that would be fun,that would be good, but yeah,
but thank you, christine, youare welcome.
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