July 27, 2025 • 34 mins
Discover the intricate and solemn procedures that unfold when a pope dies, from the announcement by the dean of cardinals to the mourning bells of Rome. Italian Vatican analyst Andrea Gagliarducci explains the sede vacante period, the sealing of the pope’s apartments, and the role of the Camerlengo in managing church affairs. Learn how the body of the pope is honored through ancient rites at multiple stations, culminating in a funeral led by the dean. We also explore the criteria for becoming pope, the significance of the Fisherman’s Ring, and the detailed preparations for electing the new pontiff by the College of Cardinals. This episode offers a unique, inside look at the Vatican’s time-honored traditions from death to the election of the next pope.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Why could an American not be the Pope?
It's never in the running.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
In this moment, because...
I saw
SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
the face you made, you went, in this moment?
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
To be...
A pope, you need a series ofcharacters.
You need to be very widely knownat international level.
You need to know the Roman Curiavery well, or at least to be
able to handle with that.
You need to be well known.
So Americans, easily they don'tspeak other languages.
That's not true.
Easily.
I have
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
lots of American priest friends here that speak
multiple languages.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
But how many cardinals?
That's the point.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Does Dolan speak Italian?
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
Dolan speaks some Italian.
SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Some Italian.
Not perfect, but some Italian.
But I
SPEAKER_01 (00:41):
feel like there's something more behind an
American now becoming a pope.
We're here today in Rome withBeyond Saint.
And we have Andrea Gagliarducci.
Did I say that right?
Yeah.
Okay, journalist.
Italian journalist.
Italian journalist.
And...
What would you call yourspecialty, I guess?
(01:02):
Do we have a name we
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
would call it?
In Italy, we call itVaticanista, which is a very
specific name for people whocover all the Vatican and
Vatican reporting.
In English, I do say Vaticananalyst.
That is quite similar, althoughnot perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
Or Vaticanologist.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Vaticanologist is similar, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Okay, so I think with everything going on, people
want to understand What happenswhen a pope dies?
Walk me through the step of whena pope dies to when we get to
the conclave, and then we canexplain the conclave after that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
So when the pope dies, there are a series of
procedures that start theso-called sede vacante, the
vacant seat.
You know, when the pope dies,there is no seat because the
pope is not there.
Let me
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
ask you.
Sede vacante means vacant
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
seat.
Vacant seat, yes.
It means that the pope is nolonger there.
There is no...
there is not a Vice Pope in theCatholic Church.
Which means- That's interesting.
There is not.
So if there is not a Pope, it'simpossible that somebody takes
the comment.
So the comment is taken by theCollege of Cardinals, all the
Cardinals together.
And that's why they meettogether in so-called
(02:14):
congregations, since thebeginning.
since the beginning.
So the first thing is theAnnunciation of the Death of the
Pope, which has to be done in avery specific way.
There must be the dean ofcardinals.
The dean of the College ofCardinals is the sort of primus,
the first among the others ofthe cardinals, is elected by
cardinals.
And this cardinal is the dean.
(02:35):
He delivers the communication toall the foreign countries
because the Pope is ahead ofstate.
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
Okay, got it.
So the dean of the cardinalskind of takes on the role of the
announcements of the Vatican.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Of the Vatican, yes.
While the vicar for the Dioceseof Rome, because the Pope is the
Bishop of Rome, he takes therole of informing all the Roman
parishes.
And then the bell of St.
Peter starts mourning, soundmourning, and all the bells in
Rome should sound mourning andsay that the Pope is dead.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Okay, the bells are mourning.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Then, after that, after the announcement, there is
the recognition of the death.
How is the recognition of thedeath?
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
Recognition of the death.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Yeah.
So the Pope is called in hisbaptismal name.
No longer.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Okay, so Borgoglio.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Borgoglio.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Jorge.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Jorge.
Why?
Because the Pope is no longerthere.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Oh, interesting.
So when he dies, we don't callhim Papa Francesco.
We call it
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Jorge.
The Rite calls him Jorge.
The ancient Rite used to say,Jorge, do you sleep?
Three times.
And after three times, there wasa small hammer.
And they used to hammer the Popeto check if he was having a
reaction.
SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
That's
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
interesting.
And in that case, they said,Very Papa Mortu says, the Pope
is really dead.
And in that moment, there wasthe annunciation of the vacancy.
When the vacancy is announced,is proselymed, because the Pope
is dead, you do a series ofthings.
First of all, you seal all theapartments of the Pope.
Because nobody can enter thePope's apartment until the next
(04:06):
Pope comes.
Really?
In this case, since Pope Francisused to live in Santa Marta, not
just in the Apostolic Palace,they also sealed the suite in
Santa Marta where he used tolive.
Because nobody can enter.
Then you know that when there isthe installation mass of the
Pope, they give him theso-called fisherman ring.
It's a ring with...
They
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
give who the fisherman ring?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
The Pope.
The Pope is given a fishermanring.
The fisherman ring is the ringthrough which the Pope actually
stamps the balls of thedocuments.
All the documents are stampedwith that.
So when the Pope dies, thefisherman ring is annulled.
So they do a sort of, you know,a cross or something that nobody
(04:48):
can use it anymore because thereis no pope.
So no papal document can beissued.
And so there will be a newfisherman ring with a new icon.
Every pope chooses one.
Mostly it's the fisherman, butin different
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
forms,
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
designs.
And there will be a new one, butthat one will no longer be used
because the pope is dead.
The pope is dead.
UNKNOWN (05:09):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
And since the very beginning, as I said, since
there is not a vice-pope, thereare general congregations, which
means all the cardinals that arein that moment in Rome, they
meet together and they startmaking the decisions.
The decisions cannot begame-changing decisions.
They just can be ordinarydecisions.
Just getting through this time.
UNKNOWN (05:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
The Camerlengo, there is one cardinal that is
called the Camerlengo, theCamerlengo presides the vacancy,
the sede vacante, but mostly isin charge with the so-called
temporal goods, which means thathe approves the preventive, he
approves the balance sheets,because obviously all of this
thing has a cost.
It's very pragmatic.
(05:51):
But the Camerlengo is just incharge of the administration.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
While
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
the cardinals all together, they make the
decisions.
So they meet all together.
And in the meantime, cardinalsget to come to Rome from all
over the world.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
How many cardinals are here from
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
Rome?
Now there are 220.
It's
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
It's a lot.
Just 135 are eligible to vote ina conclave because you can vote
in a conclave until you're 80.
When you pass the 80, you cannotvote anymore.
In this case, there will be 133cardinals because two are the
ones that can actually vote.
have to drop the possibilitybecause of health reasons.
They cannot travel, they cannotcome through.
(06:26):
Got it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
So only 135 are eligible to vote for this?
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
For this conclave, and only 133 will actually vote.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
So they start coming, and as long as they
come, they join the generalcongregations.
In the first generalcongregations, that are the
meetings, they set the date forthe funeral.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
So they used to have a date between three and five
days after the death of You needtime for cardinals from all over
the world to come.
For example, the cardinal thatresides in Budapest can get to
Rome very easily.
But the cardinal that resides inTunga gets a little longer
journey.
So between three and five days,it depends on how many cardinals
are there, how many cardinals,they announce they're coming, so
(07:09):
everybody knows the schedulewhen they're coming.
So they make a decision that canbe fit for everyone.
And then there is the funeral ofthe Pope.
Before the funeral of the Pope,there are other three passages.
The body of the Pope is broughtin three so-called stations,
three places.
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
The body of the Pope is in three stations.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
Yeah, it goes in three stations.
First step is when he'sdisplayed as a body, in the
coffin in this case, becausePope Francis was in the coffin,
but before he used to be in adeathbed.
Sure.
Before in the chapel, where heused to live.
In this case, Santa MartaChapel, in the other case was
(07:48):
the Chapel of the ApostolicPalace.
so that everybody from insidethe Vatican could go and pay the
homage.
Then there is the passage in theApostolic Palace, which took
place this time, but veryquickly.
And then there is the thirdstation that is the exposition
of the body in St.
Peter's Basilica.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
So
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
the body is exposed to veneration of the faithful.
It's a very ancient rite, and ithas two main reasons.
The first reason is that youneed to ascertain that the Pope
is dead.
Everybody has to know that theseed is peccant.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
After the hammer?
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Well, nobody knows the hammer because...
Yeah, they haven't seen it forthemselves.
Everybody needs to know.
And second, because the death ofthe Pope is always being
considered a sort of acatechetical moment for the
people of God.
Sure.
Which means that you have toshow the Christian death.
You have to show how the Popehas died, that the Pope is just
(08:44):
a transitional task.
So that's why it's exposed, andthat's why people go, it's not
paying a veneration, it's not ahomage to a head of state.
It's something different.
Anciently, there was a firstexposition where people could
also kiss the feet of the dead
SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
Pope.
SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
Now these things have changed, but I'm just
giving you the generalbackground.
After these three days ofexposition, there is the
funeral.
The funeral is in St.
Peter's Square.
And it's the Dean of the Collegeof Cardinals that always
presides over the funeral.
And after the funeral, thePope's body is brought to the
tomb.
in this case, St.
(09:20):
Mary the Major with PopeFrancis.
But generally it's in theVatican grottoes.
But it depends because PopeFrancis is not the first pope to
be buried there.
We have also 30 popes that havenot been buried.
Borghese.
Borghese.
Well, there are, you know, inSt.
Mary the Major we have five.
In St.
John the Lateran we have ninepopes.
So there are 30 of them are noteven in Rome.
(09:42):
Some of them are buried around.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
And he wanted to be married at Santa Maria Maggiore
because that was his favoritechurch?
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Many reasons.
He's a Gentile.
Jesuit, and Saint Mary Maggioreis the church where Saint
Ignatius of Loyola celebratedhis first Mass.
So there is the Jesuiticalreason of that.
Then, secondly, it was verydevoted to the icon of Maria
Salus Populi Romani, thataccording to the legend was
(10:08):
actually sketched by Saint Luke.
So very ancient.
Although not as ancient as itshould be.
you should think, but still, youknow, it was very out of that,
and that's why I used to gothere very often as a Jesuit,
Pope, and that's why I wanted tobe buried there.
The funeral of the Pope startsthe so-called time period of the
Novenials.
(10:28):
Novenials, what are Novenials?
Novenials are nine days ofmourning.
Which means-
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Like a Novena.
SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
Like a Novena, but it's nine days, like from the
day of the funeral, there arenine masses of mourning.
So the funeral, then first day,third day, fourth day, and so
on.
Every of these masses is for aspecific portion of the people
of God and the specific task ofthe Pope.
So there are two masses that arefor the so-called Pontifical
(10:55):
Chapel, which means all thepeople who actually celebrates
with the Pope, the mass.
When the pope is there, there isthe so-called papal chapel.
All the cardinals that livehere, the monsignors, the
members of the chapters.
But there is also one for theVatican City State
Administration, because the popeis the king of Vatican City
State Administration.
There is one for the Easternchurches, because the pope is
(11:15):
the primate of the Easternchurches.
There is one for the religiouspeople, because the pope is the
primate of religious people.
So it's very symbolic.
All the schedule of these ninemasses is very symbolic, and it
tells all the nuances of thepope's figure.
In the meantime, cardinals keepmeeting, and they start making
decisions, and they also start ageneral discussion about the
(11:38):
future of the church.
In the general congregations,all the cardinals meet, all of
them.
Those one eligible to vote inthe conclave, and the ones that
were not eligible to vote in theconclave.
Then, after the Novengels,during these meetings, they set
a date for the beginning of theconclave, which should be
between 10 and 15 days after thedeath.
SPEAKER_02 (11:59):
So
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
very quick in the end, if you think about that.
So the Saturday 8th, in thiscase it's May the 7th.
And then in May the 7th, in themorning, they have the so-called
Mass Proligendo Romani Pontificifor the election of the Roman
pontiff.
So all the cardinals gatherthere.
And then in the afternoon, theygo up to the Apostolic Palace.
(12:21):
There is a chapel, it's calledCappella Paulina.
They gather over there.
This chapel is very ancient.
It's at the end of the stairsgoing up to the Sistine Chapel.
So they gather there.
And then they start, thePolychapel is here.
The Sistine Chapel is here.
So it's just like three minuteswalk.
Like that.
From one
SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
chapel to the Sistine
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Chapel.
Yeah, not very much.
So all together, they gather inprocession.
SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
And they go singing the Veni Creator toward the
Sistine Chapel.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Oh, amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
And then all together in the Sistine Chapel,
one by one, they go as wearingas members of the Conclave.
So there is a public swearingin.
SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
Public swearing in.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Any of
SPEAKER_01 (12:59):
this televised?
SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
This is televised.
This will be televised.
Then after the swearing in,there is the extra omnes.
Everybody out.
So the master of papal ceremonysay extra omnes.
So everybody who's not entitledto be at the conclave will get
out.
And then...
No reporters, no
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
judges, nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
Nobody.
Not even the cardinals who arenot eligible to vote.
All of them out.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
Oh, okay.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Just one cardinal stays, and it's the cardinal
who's giving them themeditation.
Got it.
There will be a meditationbefore the first vote, the first
poll.
So everybody's out.
They close the door, and then wesee nothing else.
That's over.
Then, you know, they start theprocedure for the votes inside.
So after the meditation...
Also, the cardinal who deliveredthe meditation, that is
(13:45):
generally an ancient cardinal,so not eligible to vote, in this
case Cardinal Cantalamessa, hewill be out as well.
And then let's start the firstpoll.
The polls are very interesting.
So, the cardinals are in threelines.
The Sistine Chapel is actuallyup-leveled, so you will not get
the floor.
You don't get to touch thefloor.
(14:06):
You
SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
don't get to touch the floor
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
where you're sitting?
No, because there is a woodenthing, and they put scaffolding
so that people, that cardinalscan sit.
And they're
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
floating, kind of?
SPEAKER_00 (14:16):
Yeah, something like that.
Not floating, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
Yeah, no, not floating, but their feet are
above the floor.
Are
SPEAKER_00 (14:21):
above the floor.
It's just like when you put aparquet, you have the actual
floor.
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
Yeah, got
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
it.
Okay?
So they have this desk, and allof them, they sit.
And then they have this paper,it's a white paper, where there
is just a line that say, Illigoin Sumum Pontificiam, I elect as
Roman pontiff.
And they can put any name theywant.
And then they, you know,everybody's called.
They put the name, they fold it.
(14:48):
Then they have to put it likethis, just to show that nobody
touched it.
And then they have to walk.
toward the central desk wherethere is the dean of the
conclave, which is not the samedean as the College of Cardinals
because the dean is more than80, so he's not gonna enter in
the conclave.
So he goes in the desk and thereare three cardinals that oversee
(15:09):
every day the operations ofvote.
And so, is we're seeing thatwhatever he did is done under
the Holy Spirit.
And that he's writing the namethat he considers fit in his
heart and his views.
And then he gets back.
(15:30):
This happens for every cardinal.
So for every single vote, thereis a procession.
From one cardinal and then back,processional.
Because- It's very
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
ritualistic.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Yeah, because it has to keep, the uh the prayer you
know the conclave is not anelection the conclave is a right
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
oh
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
that ends with an election but it's right
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
it's a right
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
that's the first thing you have to remember and i
didn't
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
realize that it's something i learned and i i
learned today
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
that's very interesting because that's why
you have so much prayer that'swhy you swear so many times
because that helps the cardinalsto feel the responsibility if if
they start thinking withoutpraying they can start thinking
as an election.
So they can start having alsoagreements.
I just learned
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
that today.
The conclave is a right, not anelection.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
Yeah.
And it has, you know, it'sritual.
So you have four polls per day.
The first day is one pollbecause it's in the evening.
Then you have four polls perday.
So one in mid-morning, one atmidday, one in mid-afternoon,
and one at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
And...
Every morning, when they go intothe Sistine Chapel, since
they're staying in Santa Marta,they are brought by bus, special
transport.
And then they go there, and thenthey vote, and then all the
votes are read, and then they'reput in a sort of line or
(16:58):
something like that, and thenthey're barred.
They burn them.
Yeah.
After they read the votes, ifthey don't get to an election,
or even if they get to anelection, they burn them.
In case the election is reached,you have the white smoke from
the chimneys.
In case not, you have the blacksmoke.
You have just two smokes perday.
(17:20):
Only in case the Pope is electedin the mid-morning or
mid-afternoon, you can haveanother smoke.
Smoke in the midday.
Generally, it's two smokes.
So that's pretty much that.
After the election, when thePope is elected, the dean of the
College of Cardinals has to goto the Pope elected.
The elected Pope has to accept.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
I was just going to ask, has anyone declined?
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
We don't know.
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
that's okay.
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
We don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
He has to accept.
Do you
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
know?
Have you ever heard of anybodydeclining?
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Not recently.
So I don't know.
Okay.
Not recently.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
He has to accept and he pronounces his name.
as Pope.
So he says, I choose this nameas a Pope.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
Oh, you change your name?
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Every time.
Then after that, they brought toa so-called room of the drops.
Let
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
me ask you a question.
A lot of priests already come inchanging their name, right?
Because Papa Francesco was notPapa Francesco.
He was Jorge.
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Mario Bergoglio, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
Mario Bergoglio.
So then you change your nameagain?
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
If they change their name as religious, then they
change.
Jorge Mario Bergoglio was hisname.
It was his birth name.
His birth name.
But a
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
lot of like, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Yeah, they changed the name again.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Again, twice.
Yeah.
Okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Because it's not their name as religious, it's
the name as Pope.
So you enter a new condition.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Okay, got it.
Okay, I'm just asking, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
That's the point.
You know, it's not another, whenyou become a bishop, you're
ordained bishop.
So it's like a second ordinationafter priest.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
Because I have a friend, he was not born Philip
Neri, but he's a Dominican, hisname is Philip Neri.
I'm sure he changed it to PhilipNeri.
And now, let's say he becamepope, he changed it again.
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
That's a lot of names to remember.
A
SPEAKER_00 (19:00):
lot, yeah, if he wants to.
Otherwise, he can remember justthe important ones.
And then after that, he's sentto the room of the drops, you
know.
Well, drops because it was saidthat the pope selected tried in
front of their responsibility,you know.
And there are three cassocksalready prepared.
A small one, medium one, largeone.
(19:21):
So he wears for the first timethe purple robes.
And then he goes, and then thecardinal protocol goes out of
the balcony and announces to thepeople of God that the Pope has
been elected.
And then after that, the Popecomes out dressed with white.
(19:41):
It's
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
like a big celebration here in Rome.
It's like people go
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
crazy.
Yeah, yeah.
They go crazy because, you know,Rome has always been very much
connected with the Popes.
Sure.
If you check on YouTube, andthat's a very fun exercise you
can do, there is footage aboutall the announcements to the
Pope since 1939.
So you can see Pius XII to beannounced.
(20:06):
And you can see the crowd.
The crowd before the SecondWorld War was three times what
we have now.
Because at that time, there werenot even the corridors, the
emergency corridors.
Now we have a series ofemergency corridors and security
issues that actually shrink thesquare somehow.
But before there were not.
So people just gathered in thesquare and it was like that.
(20:27):
It was huge.
It was huge.
And I mean, this Pope, PopeFrancis somehow broke is
connection with the city ofRome.
Because he didn't live in theApostolic Palace.
And not living in the ApostolicPalace for Roman citizen is a
huge breach.
Why?
Because people from Rome likedto go in the square, just
(20:51):
wandering, and check if the Popewas awakened.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
So because the light was up.
And you could see the light.
And you could see when the Popewas sleeping or if the Pope was
there.
What do you
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
think about that?
That he chose to not be in theWell,
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
I didn't like it for starters, but I didn't like it
because it's something thatconnects you very much with the
people.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
This
SPEAKER_01 (21:14):
pope was a contrarian.
He definitely was kind of likeSt.
Francis.
He wanted to live a life ofpoverty, so he didn't want to be
at the papal palace and hewanted to be...
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Yeah, with the exception that the papal palace
is not for rich.
It's an apartment.
It's good.
It's very dignified.
But the issue is that he didn'twant to live in a place where he
felt alone.
And in a hotel, he never feltalone because there were people
around all the time.
He doesn't have a family.
That's the point.
Generally, there is a pontificalfamily that lives with you.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
For example, Benedict XVI had four
consecrated women that livedwith him and his secretary.
So he had a sort of family.
And the same John Paul II.
John Paul II had his secretary,Cardinal Givish, and then the
other secretary.
And then John Paul II liked tohost people for dinners and
meals.
He never ate alone, never inlife.
So he always had some people forlunch or for dinner.
(22:07):
So he didn't feel alone.
But Pope Francis never had thiskind of thing.
I wonder
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
why.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
It's his choice.
I don't know here.
He's a loner.
He's a loner, yeah.
So he decided to do that.
And since he's not, not even,he's Argentinian, not even
European, he doesn't get thiskind of connection because in
Argentina it's different.
This kind of connection issomething you very much perceive
in Rome because Rome has alwaysbeen pepally.
But you very much perceive in,when you are European because in
(22:36):
Europe you have this thing that,you know, the, bishops were also
princes somehow, so they hadthis connection with the people.
So in this case, we lost theconnection.
So even when he died, we didn'thave the huge procession of
people that went to accompanyJohn Paul II's agony in the
square, but they were in thesquare because they knew that
(22:57):
John Paul II was in that window.
So there was this connectionthat we lost with this papacy.
SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
Do you want, Andrea, to go back to the tradition?
Yeah.
Okay, you do.
Okay, great.
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
Well, I would love that, yeah.
Well, I think the ApostolicPalace is more pragmatic for
many reasons.
First, secondly, it's nice forpeople to see the Pope.
Third, it's not a lack ofprivacy.
Fourth, it's not luxury.
And it's very pragmatic for thePope because he lives here and
all his activities are here.
Sure, yes.
So I would love that,
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
yeah.
I was told that he appointed,Pope Francis appointed...
cardinals that were verylike-minded like him.
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
How do you think that will affect the next
election?
SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
I don't think it will affect the election that
much, and I will tell you why.
Generally, you know, all thepopes create cardinals that are
like-minded, you know, it'snormal.
You appoint people you like andyou feel fit with.
But the issue is that when thepope dies, the pope is dead.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
And
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
you have 133 old people that are secluded in a
place and they're discussingabout the challenges they're
expecting and whatsoever.
The point is that as long asthey talk, they can change their
mind very quickly.
Things can happen very, veryeasily.
You know, you do a bad joke atlunch and you lose 40 votes.
(24:21):
I wouldn't last a minute.
Yeah, well, that's the point.
So I don't think it's going toaffect that because it affects
very much...
It affects very much thediscussions before.
But once you get in, everythingchanges.
It's a different environment.
You know, cardinals are totallyforbidden from having any kind
of connection with the externalworld.
(24:43):
During this time.
During the conclave.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
So the windows are shut down.
The windows are sealed in theirrooms.
They cannot even look out of thewindow.
SPEAKER_01 (24:53):
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
They have to give all the laptops, all the phones.
Phones! Everything.
No connection.
And the Vatican City State isshielded.
Because no interference.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
By the Swiss guards?
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
No, by the police, by the Vatican police.
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
So no interference.
It's impossible.
So when you're at security, youjust have time to think, read,
and talk.
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Talk with the other cardinals.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
You have nothing else.
And often you don't talk becauseyou're tired and because you
spend a lot of time there.
So sometimes you just need topray.
I do remember a cardinal afterthe 2013 conclave.
I met him after, and I askedhim, what did you do after the
conclave?
I said, listen, after the PopeFrancis inaugural mass, I went
(25:38):
back home.
It was Italian, so there was nota long journey.
So I went back home right away.
I didn't want to stay in Romeone more day.
It was too much.
And then first thing, I went tomy hometown and I bought a slice
of pizza.
I was not hungry, but I neededto get in touch with reality.
I needed something concrete.
(25:59):
So that gives you very much theidea of how they are there.
So that's why I don't think it'sgoing to be affected by
like-minded people because whatyou feel there is different.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
So building on that a little bit, there's a lot of
talk about the church beingdivided right now.
SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Do you think that like-minded or not like-minded,
all the cardinals will wantsomeone that can unify the
church?
And how do you think that willwork?
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
Well, the role of the Pope is actually the role of
bringing unity to the Church.
The Pope is a guarantor ofunity, first of all.
We lost a little this ideabecause, especially the last
Popes, they were very muchevangelizers, they went to world
peripheries, not only PopeFrancis, but also John Paul II
with all the trips.
And we like this idea, it's verycharismatic and very good for
(26:48):
media and it's wonderful.
But the first role of the Popeis being the guarantor of the
unity of faith.
So I must assume that cardinalslook for somebody like that.
You know, we're human.
We divide in many stupid things,we divide on many big things.
So they will look for a pacifiersomehow, I would say, I would
think, but I don't know if theywill succeed.
(27:11):
For example, Pope Francis was insome ways a sort of bridge
between two worlds.
So they were looking for abridge.
but Pope Francis has his way ofgoverning, and the way of
governing always createsdivisions.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
He was very different.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
He was very different.
But, I mean, even Benedict XVI,that made of all his pontificate
a huge attempt to bring unity,actually created divisions
because there are always peoplethat disagree with you.
So bringing unity is the firsttask, but it's not that easy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
Yeah, agree.
Let's talk about some of thecandidates.
What do you think the top fivecandidates are?
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Oh, in this very moment, it's kind of hard
because things have changed veryquickly in the last few days.
Obviously, Cardinal Parolin isconsidered a big...
From
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
where?
Tell all of their nationalities.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
He's Italian and he's been the Secretary of State
of Pope Francis.
He's kind
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
of like the favorite one everyone's talking about.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Everybody's talking about him because since the
College of Cardinals is veryscattered and they've never met
together, he's one of the fewthat everybody knows because
he's been traveling, he's beenrepresenting Pope Francis in
many situations, and he has avery mild personality.
persona is very, very good inhandling dialogue.
So everybody likes him for that.
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
He's already a
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
shoe-in.
Yeah.
So everybody knows him.
Then, obviously, you have othernames.
There is Cardinal Erdo fromHungary.
Cardinal Erdo has been acardinal since 2002, which means
that he was created cardinal byJohn Paul II.
He's one of the five cardinalsthat entered the conclave and
that already did two conclavesbefore.
Some of them never entered one,but he has the experience of
(28:50):
two.
This is his third.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Good point.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
And he's moderate, he's conservative, he's a canon
lawyer, which means that he'svery much able to bring...
He's a canon lawyer.
Yeah.
He brings order, very much.
Not charismatic, but not evenParolin is very much
charismatic, you know, butstill.
Then, well, I like to mentionCardinal Cristóbal López, that
is Spanish, but is actuallyArchbishop of Rabat in Morocco.
(29:15):
Cristóbal López is Salesian, andhe's a very...
like spectacular person.
He is a trained journalist,becomes a legion, missionary in
South America and then inAfrica, and now Cardinal Rabat.
He's very charismatic.
When you listen to him, youthink that everything he's
(29:35):
saying is good, even if it'snot.
It's very good in that.
It's great.
We
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
call that the gift of Gab.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
Yeah, he has that.
He has that, yeah.
And I think his name is going tobe pitched.
Then, well, we have CardinalPizzaballa, that is Italian, but
is patriarch of Jerusalem.
His name is being very much inthe row now, but I think he's...
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
He's my favorite.
SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
Oh, I like him, but I think, you know, things are
changing for him so far, so Idon't think he's gaining so many
votes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
I like him and Hungary.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Oh, yeah, I like them both, too, and I can say
I'm in good relations with both.
And then there is this name thatis coming out that is Cardinal
Aveline from France, Archbishopof
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
Marseille.
That's one I have not heard.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Somebody pitched this name.
Aveline has a huge problem thathe doesn't speak Italian.
And that's...
That's a problem.
Yeah, he learned, but in themeantime, that will trick him
very much here.
So it can be a problem.
It can be a problem.
But these are the five namesthat are being pitched now in
general.
But I really think that thingswill change very quickly.
(30:42):
We have still three days off tothe Conclave.
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
Who's your favorite out of those five?
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
Cristóbal López.
I always thought that CristóbalLópez could make it.
Since I met him first time andhe was Archbishop, because I saw
the charisma.
And the thing is this, thatsince they don't know each
other, they will easily rememberthe most the people who talk
better.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
The charismatic one.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
I have a question for you.
Why can an American not be thePope?
It's never in the running.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
In this moment, because...
I saw
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
the face you made.
You went, ooh, in this moment?
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Yeah, in this moment, you don't have so much
people's stuff among Americancardinals.
You know, to be...
A pope, you need a series ofcharacters.
You need to be very widely knownat international level.
You need to know the Roman Curiavery well, or at least to be
able to handle with that.
You need to be well known, andyou need to get along with
(31:37):
people.
So Americans, easily they don'tspeak other languages.
That's not true.
Easily.
I have
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
lots of American priest friends here that speak
multiple languages.
SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
But how many cardinals?
That's the point.
SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
Does Dolan speak Italian?
SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
Dolan speaks some Italian.
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Some Italian.
Not perfect, but some Italian.
Cupich doesn't speak any, forexample.
Tobin speaks Italian becausehe's been in the Curia.
Tobin could be the most eligibleone, I would say.
But I
SPEAKER_01 (32:06):
feel like there's something more behind an
American not becoming a pope.
It's sort of,
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
you know, you need some institutionality to get
there, and still they're not inIran.
But I would say this is...
just the generational, becauseif you went back to
generational, there was CardinalSpellman in the 40s and 50s, the
Archbishop of New York.
Cardinal Spellman could verymuch be papal material, but in
that time they were electingjust Italians.
(32:33):
So it depends.
You know, history has its waysometimes.
Things happen in a way thatyou...
There's
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
never been an American pope.
SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
No.
No, there has never been,because when the American
hierarchy was set up, it was18th century.
Mostly, you know, PhiladelphiaArchdiocese was 17-something, so
not long ago.
And then American cardinals camea little later when the diocese
became bigger, so it took sometime.
So you need some generation toget there.
(33:02):
But if you think about that, wehad a lot of African popes,
although we don't think aboutthat, because North African
popes, like St.
Augustine was North African, forexample, not pope, but you had a
North African pope.
And you have Asian popes,because if you think there were
popes from the Middle East, 13from St.
Peter.
Sure,
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
of
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
course.
So it's not just a Europeanthing, but it became a European
thing and mostly a Roman thing.
In Rome, we had theEnlightenment, and with the
Enlightenment, there was this...
like a rebellion against thechurch.
So the nation state were foundedand the church was marginalized.
So that's why the church gotback to have Italians because
(33:40):
they were mostly in their state.
The church had a state.
And so they mostly had Italians.
And in that moment, the churchhad Every state in Europe is an
enemy.
So things change step by step,but it takes time.
History is a strange animal.
It takes time to get arrestedsomehow.
SPEAKER_01 (34:00):
Thank you, Andrea, for coming and talking with us
here in Rome.
Italian journalist,Vaticanologist.
No, that's not the right name.
It works well.
Vaticanologist.
Wow, what a wealth ofinformation.
Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Thank you for having me.
Why could an American not be the Pope?
It's never in the running.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
In this moment, because...
I saw
SPEAKER_01 (00:07):
the face you made, you went, in this moment?
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
To be...
A pope, you need a series ofcharacters.
You need to be very widely knownat international level.
You need to know the Roman Curiavery well, or at least to be
able to handle with that.
You need to be well known.
So Americans, easily they don'tspeak other languages.
That's not true.
Easily.
I have
SPEAKER_01 (00:27):
lots of American priest friends here that speak
multiple languages.
SPEAKER_00 (00:31):
But how many cardinals?
That's the point.
SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Does Dolan speak Italian?
SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
Dolan speaks some Italian.
SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Some Italian.
Not perfect, but some Italian.
But I
SPEAKER_01 (00:41):
feel like there's something more behind an
American now becoming a pope.
We're here today in Rome withBeyond Saint.
And we have Andrea Gagliarducci.
Did I say that right?
Yeah.
Okay, journalist.
Italian journalist.
Italian journalist.
And...
What would you call yourspecialty, I guess?
(01:02):
Do we have a name we
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
would call it?
In Italy, we call itVaticanista, which is a very
specific name for people whocover all the Vatican and
Vatican reporting.
In English, I do say Vaticananalyst.
That is quite similar, althoughnot perfect.
SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
Or Vaticanologist.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Vaticanologist is similar, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:22):
Okay, so I think with everything going on, people
want to understand What happenswhen a pope dies?
Walk me through the step of whena pope dies to when we get to
the conclave, and then we canexplain the conclave after that.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
So when the pope dies, there are a series of
procedures that start theso-called sede vacante, the
vacant seat.
You know, when the pope dies,there is no seat because the
pope is not there.
Let me
SPEAKER_01 (01:50):
ask you.
Sede vacante means vacant
SPEAKER_00 (01:53):
seat.
Vacant seat, yes.
It means that the pope is nolonger there.
There is no...
there is not a Vice Pope in theCatholic Church.
Which means- That's interesting.
There is not.
So if there is not a Pope, it'simpossible that somebody takes
the comment.
So the comment is taken by theCollege of Cardinals, all the
Cardinals together.
And that's why they meettogether in so-called
(02:14):
congregations, since thebeginning.
since the beginning.
So the first thing is theAnnunciation of the Death of the
Pope, which has to be done in avery specific way.
There must be the dean ofcardinals.
The dean of the College ofCardinals is the sort of primus,
the first among the others ofthe cardinals, is elected by
cardinals.
And this cardinal is the dean.
(02:35):
He delivers the communication toall the foreign countries
because the Pope is ahead ofstate.
SPEAKER_01 (02:39):
Okay, got it.
So the dean of the cardinalskind of takes on the role of the
announcements of the Vatican.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Of the Vatican, yes.
While the vicar for the Dioceseof Rome, because the Pope is the
Bishop of Rome, he takes therole of informing all the Roman
parishes.
And then the bell of St.
Peter starts mourning, soundmourning, and all the bells in
Rome should sound mourning andsay that the Pope is dead.
SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Okay, the bells are mourning.
SPEAKER_00 (03:04):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (03:05):
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Then, after that, after the announcement, there is
the recognition of the death.
How is the recognition of thedeath?
SPEAKER_01 (03:13):
Recognition of the death.
SPEAKER_00 (03:14):
Yeah.
So the Pope is called in hisbaptismal name.
No longer.
SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Okay, so Borgoglio.
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
Borgoglio.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
Jorge.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Jorge.
Why?
Because the Pope is no longerthere.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Oh, interesting.
So when he dies, we don't callhim Papa Francesco.
We call it
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Jorge.
The Rite calls him Jorge.
The ancient Rite used to say,Jorge, do you sleep?
Three times.
And after three times, there wasa small hammer.
And they used to hammer the Popeto check if he was having a
reaction.
SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
That's
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
interesting.
And in that case, they said,Very Papa Mortu says, the Pope
is really dead.
And in that moment, there wasthe annunciation of the vacancy.
When the vacancy is announced,is proselymed, because the Pope
is dead, you do a series ofthings.
First of all, you seal all theapartments of the Pope.
Because nobody can enter thePope's apartment until the next
(04:06):
Pope comes.
Really?
In this case, since Pope Francisused to live in Santa Marta, not
just in the Apostolic Palace,they also sealed the suite in
Santa Marta where he used tolive.
Because nobody can enter.
Then you know that when there isthe installation mass of the
Pope, they give him theso-called fisherman ring.
It's a ring with...
They
SPEAKER_01 (04:26):
give who the fisherman ring?
SPEAKER_00 (04:28):
The Pope.
The Pope is given a fishermanring.
The fisherman ring is the ringthrough which the Pope actually
stamps the balls of thedocuments.
All the documents are stampedwith that.
So when the Pope dies, thefisherman ring is annulled.
So they do a sort of, you know,a cross or something that nobody
(04:48):
can use it anymore because thereis no pope.
So no papal document can beissued.
And so there will be a newfisherman ring with a new icon.
Every pope chooses one.
Mostly it's the fisherman, butin different
SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
forms,
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
designs.
And there will be a new one, butthat one will no longer be used
because the pope is dead.
The pope is dead.
UNKNOWN (05:09):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
And since the very beginning, as I said, since
there is not a vice-pope, thereare general congregations, which
means all the cardinals that arein that moment in Rome, they
meet together and they startmaking the decisions.
The decisions cannot begame-changing decisions.
They just can be ordinarydecisions.
Just getting through this time.
UNKNOWN (05:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:30):
The Camerlengo, there is one cardinal that is
called the Camerlengo, theCamerlengo presides the vacancy,
the sede vacante, but mostly isin charge with the so-called
temporal goods, which means thathe approves the preventive, he
approves the balance sheets,because obviously all of this
thing has a cost.
It's very pragmatic.
(05:51):
But the Camerlengo is just incharge of the administration.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
While
SPEAKER_00 (05:54):
the cardinals all together, they make the
decisions.
So they meet all together.
And in the meantime, cardinalsget to come to Rome from all
over the world.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
How many cardinals are here from
SPEAKER_00 (06:03):
Rome?
Now there are 220.
It's
SPEAKER_01 (06:05):
a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (06:06):
It's a lot.
Just 135 are eligible to vote ina conclave because you can vote
in a conclave until you're 80.
When you pass the 80, you cannotvote anymore.
In this case, there will be 133cardinals because two are the
ones that can actually vote.
have to drop the possibilitybecause of health reasons.
They cannot travel, they cannotcome through.
(06:26):
Got it.
SPEAKER_01 (06:27):
So only 135 are eligible to vote for this?
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
For this conclave, and only 133 will actually vote.
SPEAKER_01 (06:33):
Got it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:34):
So they start coming, and as long as they
come, they join the generalcongregations.
In the first generalcongregations, that are the
meetings, they set the date forthe funeral.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Oh, interesting.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (06:47):
So they used to have a date between three and five
days after the death of You needtime for cardinals from all over
the world to come.
For example, the cardinal thatresides in Budapest can get to
Rome very easily.
But the cardinal that resides inTunga gets a little longer
journey.
So between three and five days,it depends on how many cardinals
are there, how many cardinals,they announce they're coming, so
(07:09):
everybody knows the schedulewhen they're coming.
So they make a decision that canbe fit for everyone.
And then there is the funeral ofthe Pope.
Before the funeral of the Pope,there are other three passages.
The body of the Pope is broughtin three so-called stations,
three places.
SPEAKER_01 (07:25):
The body of the Pope is in three stations.
SPEAKER_00 (07:27):
Yeah, it goes in three stations.
First step is when he'sdisplayed as a body, in the
coffin in this case, becausePope Francis was in the coffin,
but before he used to be in adeathbed.
Sure.
Before in the chapel, where heused to live.
In this case, Santa MartaChapel, in the other case was
(07:48):
the Chapel of the ApostolicPalace.
so that everybody from insidethe Vatican could go and pay the
homage.
Then there is the passage in theApostolic Palace, which took
place this time, but veryquickly.
And then there is the thirdstation that is the exposition
of the body in St.
Peter's Basilica.
SPEAKER_02 (08:06):
So
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
the body is exposed to veneration of the faithful.
It's a very ancient rite, and ithas two main reasons.
The first reason is that youneed to ascertain that the Pope
is dead.
Everybody has to know that theseed is peccant.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
After the hammer?
SPEAKER_00 (08:22):
Well, nobody knows the hammer because...
Yeah, they haven't seen it forthemselves.
Everybody needs to know.
And second, because the death ofthe Pope is always being
considered a sort of acatechetical moment for the
people of God.
Sure.
Which means that you have toshow the Christian death.
You have to show how the Popehas died, that the Pope is just
(08:44):
a transitional task.
So that's why it's exposed, andthat's why people go, it's not
paying a veneration, it's not ahomage to a head of state.
It's something different.
Anciently, there was a firstexposition where people could
also kiss the feet of the dead
SPEAKER_02 (08:59):
Pope.
SPEAKER_00 (09:00):
Now these things have changed, but I'm just
giving you the generalbackground.
After these three days ofexposition, there is the
funeral.
The funeral is in St.
Peter's Square.
And it's the Dean of the Collegeof Cardinals that always
presides over the funeral.
And after the funeral, thePope's body is brought to the
tomb.
in this case, St.
(09:20):
Mary the Major with PopeFrancis.
But generally it's in theVatican grottoes.
But it depends because PopeFrancis is not the first pope to
be buried there.
We have also 30 popes that havenot been buried.
Borghese.
Borghese.
Well, there are, you know, inSt.
Mary the Major we have five.
In St.
John the Lateran we have ninepopes.
So there are 30 of them are noteven in Rome.
(09:42):
Some of them are buried around.
SPEAKER_01 (09:44):
And he wanted to be married at Santa Maria Maggiore
because that was his favoritechurch?
SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Many reasons.
He's a Gentile.
Jesuit, and Saint Mary Maggioreis the church where Saint
Ignatius of Loyola celebratedhis first Mass.
So there is the Jesuiticalreason of that.
Then, secondly, it was verydevoted to the icon of Maria
Salus Populi Romani, thataccording to the legend was
(10:08):
actually sketched by Saint Luke.
So very ancient.
Although not as ancient as itshould be.
you should think, but still, youknow, it was very out of that,
and that's why I used to gothere very often as a Jesuit,
Pope, and that's why I wanted tobe buried there.
The funeral of the Pope startsthe so-called time period of the
Novenials.
(10:28):
Novenials, what are Novenials?
Novenials are nine days ofmourning.
Which means-
SPEAKER_01 (10:33):
Like a Novena.
SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
Like a Novena, but it's nine days, like from the
day of the funeral, there arenine masses of mourning.
So the funeral, then first day,third day, fourth day, and so
on.
Every of these masses is for aspecific portion of the people
of God and the specific task ofthe Pope.
So there are two masses that arefor the so-called Pontifical
(10:55):
Chapel, which means all thepeople who actually celebrates
with the Pope, the mass.
When the pope is there, there isthe so-called papal chapel.
All the cardinals that livehere, the monsignors, the
members of the chapters.
But there is also one for theVatican City State
Administration, because the popeis the king of Vatican City
State Administration.
There is one for the Easternchurches, because the pope is
(11:15):
the primate of the Easternchurches.
There is one for the religiouspeople, because the pope is the
primate of religious people.
So it's very symbolic.
All the schedule of these ninemasses is very symbolic, and it
tells all the nuances of thepope's figure.
In the meantime, cardinals keepmeeting, and they start making
decisions, and they also start ageneral discussion about the
(11:38):
future of the church.
In the general congregations,all the cardinals meet, all of
them.
Those one eligible to vote inthe conclave, and the ones that
were not eligible to vote in theconclave.
Then, after the Novengels,during these meetings, they set
a date for the beginning of theconclave, which should be
between 10 and 15 days after thedeath.
SPEAKER_02 (11:59):
So
SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
very quick in the end, if you think about that.
So the Saturday 8th, in thiscase it's May the 7th.
And then in May the 7th, in themorning, they have the so-called
Mass Proligendo Romani Pontificifor the election of the Roman
pontiff.
So all the cardinals gatherthere.
And then in the afternoon, theygo up to the Apostolic Palace.
(12:21):
There is a chapel, it's calledCappella Paulina.
They gather over there.
This chapel is very ancient.
It's at the end of the stairsgoing up to the Sistine Chapel.
So they gather there.
And then they start, thePolychapel is here.
The Sistine Chapel is here.
So it's just like three minuteswalk.
Like that.
From one
SPEAKER_01 (12:38):
chapel to the Sistine
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Chapel.
Yeah, not very much.
So all together, they gather inprocession.
SPEAKER_01 (12:43):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (12:44):
And they go singing the Veni Creator toward the
Sistine Chapel.
SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Oh, amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (12:49):
And then all together in the Sistine Chapel,
one by one, they go as wearingas members of the Conclave.
So there is a public swearingin.
SPEAKER_01 (12:57):
Public swearing in.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Any of
SPEAKER_01 (12:59):
this televised?
SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
This is televised.
This will be televised.
Then after the swearing in,there is the extra omnes.
Everybody out.
So the master of papal ceremonysay extra omnes.
So everybody who's not entitledto be at the conclave will get
out.
And then...
No reporters, no
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
judges, nothing.
SPEAKER_00 (13:19):
Nobody.
Not even the cardinals who arenot eligible to vote.
All of them out.
SPEAKER_01 (13:23):
Oh, okay.
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Just one cardinal stays, and it's the cardinal
who's giving them themeditation.
Got it.
There will be a meditationbefore the first vote, the first
poll.
So everybody's out.
They close the door, and then wesee nothing else.
That's over.
Then, you know, they start theprocedure for the votes inside.
So after the meditation...
Also, the cardinal who deliveredthe meditation, that is
(13:45):
generally an ancient cardinal,so not eligible to vote, in this
case Cardinal Cantalamessa, hewill be out as well.
And then let's start the firstpoll.
The polls are very interesting.
So, the cardinals are in threelines.
The Sistine Chapel is actuallyup-leveled, so you will not get
the floor.
You don't get to touch thefloor.
(14:06):
You
SPEAKER_01 (14:06):
don't get to touch the floor
SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
where you're sitting?
No, because there is a woodenthing, and they put scaffolding
so that people, that cardinalscan sit.
And they're
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
floating, kind of?
SPEAKER_00 (14:16):
Yeah, something like that.
Not floating, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
Yeah, no, not floating, but their feet are
above the floor.
Are
SPEAKER_00 (14:21):
above the floor.
It's just like when you put aparquet, you have the actual
floor.
SPEAKER_01 (14:25):
Yeah, got
SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
it.
Okay?
So they have this desk, and allof them, they sit.
And then they have this paper,it's a white paper, where there
is just a line that say, Illigoin Sumum Pontificiam, I elect as
Roman pontiff.
And they can put any name theywant.
And then they, you know,everybody's called.
They put the name, they fold it.
(14:48):
Then they have to put it likethis, just to show that nobody
touched it.
And then they have to walk.
toward the central desk wherethere is the dean of the
conclave, which is not the samedean as the College of Cardinals
because the dean is more than80, so he's not gonna enter in
the conclave.
So he goes in the desk and thereare three cardinals that oversee
(15:09):
every day the operations ofvote.
And so, is we're seeing thatwhatever he did is done under
the Holy Spirit.
And that he's writing the namethat he considers fit in his
heart and his views.
And then he gets back.
(15:30):
This happens for every cardinal.
So for every single vote, thereis a procession.
From one cardinal and then back,processional.
Because- It's very
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
ritualistic.
SPEAKER_00 (15:40):
Yeah, because it has to keep, the uh the prayer you
know the conclave is not anelection the conclave is a right
SPEAKER_01 (15:51):
oh
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
that ends with an election but it's right
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
it's a right
SPEAKER_00 (15:54):
that's the first thing you have to remember and i
didn't
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
realize that it's something i learned and i i
learned today
SPEAKER_00 (16:01):
that's very interesting because that's why
you have so much prayer that'swhy you swear so many times
because that helps the cardinalsto feel the responsibility if if
they start thinking withoutpraying they can start thinking
as an election.
So they can start having alsoagreements.
I just learned
SPEAKER_01 (16:17):
that today.
The conclave is a right, not anelection.
SPEAKER_00 (16:21):
Yeah.
And it has, you know, it'sritual.
So you have four polls per day.
The first day is one pollbecause it's in the evening.
Then you have four polls perday.
So one in mid-morning, one atmidday, one in mid-afternoon,
and one at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_01 (16:35):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
And...
Every morning, when they go intothe Sistine Chapel, since
they're staying in Santa Marta,they are brought by bus, special
transport.
And then they go there, and thenthey vote, and then all the
votes are read, and then they'reput in a sort of line or
(16:58):
something like that, and thenthey're barred.
They burn them.
Yeah.
After they read the votes, ifthey don't get to an election,
or even if they get to anelection, they burn them.
In case the election is reached,you have the white smoke from
the chimneys.
In case not, you have the blacksmoke.
You have just two smokes perday.
(17:20):
Only in case the Pope is electedin the mid-morning or
mid-afternoon, you can haveanother smoke.
Smoke in the midday.
Generally, it's two smokes.
So that's pretty much that.
After the election, when thePope is elected, the dean of the
College of Cardinals has to goto the Pope elected.
The elected Pope has to accept.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
I was just going to ask, has anyone declined?
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
We don't know.
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (17:44):
that's okay.
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
We don't know.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
He has to accept.
Do you
SPEAKER_01 (17:48):
know?
Have you ever heard of anybodydeclining?
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Not recently.
So I don't know.
Okay.
Not recently.
SPEAKER_01 (17:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
He has to accept and he pronounces his name.
as Pope.
So he says, I choose this nameas a Pope.
SPEAKER_01 (18:01):
Oh, you change your name?
SPEAKER_00 (18:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
Every time.
Then after that, they brought toa so-called room of the drops.
Let
SPEAKER_01 (18:10):
me ask you a question.
A lot of priests already come inchanging their name, right?
Because Papa Francesco was notPapa Francesco.
He was Jorge.
SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
Mario Bergoglio, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
Mario Bergoglio.
So then you change your nameagain?
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
If they change their name as religious, then they
change.
Jorge Mario Bergoglio was hisname.
It was his birth name.
His birth name.
But a
SPEAKER_01 (18:30):
lot of like, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:31):
Yeah, they changed the name again.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Again, twice.
Yeah.
Okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (18:34):
Because it's not their name as religious, it's
the name as Pope.
So you enter a new condition.
SPEAKER_01 (18:38):
Okay, got it.
Okay, I'm just asking, okay.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
That's the point.
You know, it's not another, whenyou become a bishop, you're
ordained bishop.
So it's like a second ordinationafter priest.
SPEAKER_01 (18:48):
Because I have a friend, he was not born Philip
Neri, but he's a Dominican, hisname is Philip Neri.
I'm sure he changed it to PhilipNeri.
And now, let's say he becamepope, he changed it again.
SPEAKER_00 (18:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:58):
That's a lot of names to remember.
A
SPEAKER_00 (19:00):
lot, yeah, if he wants to.
Otherwise, he can remember justthe important ones.
And then after that, he's sentto the room of the drops, you
know.
Well, drops because it was saidthat the pope selected tried in
front of their responsibility,you know.
And there are three cassocksalready prepared.
A small one, medium one, largeone.
(19:21):
So he wears for the first timethe purple robes.
And then he goes, and then thecardinal protocol goes out of
the balcony and announces to thepeople of God that the Pope has
been elected.
And then after that, the Popecomes out dressed with white.
(19:41):
It's
SPEAKER_01 (19:41):
like a big celebration here in Rome.
It's like people go
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
crazy.
Yeah, yeah.
They go crazy because, you know,Rome has always been very much
connected with the Popes.
Sure.
If you check on YouTube, andthat's a very fun exercise you
can do, there is footage aboutall the announcements to the
Pope since 1939.
So you can see Pius XII to beannounced.
(20:06):
And you can see the crowd.
The crowd before the SecondWorld War was three times what
we have now.
Because at that time, there werenot even the corridors, the
emergency corridors.
Now we have a series ofemergency corridors and security
issues that actually shrink thesquare somehow.
But before there were not.
So people just gathered in thesquare and it was like that.
(20:27):
It was huge.
It was huge.
And I mean, this Pope, PopeFrancis somehow broke is
connection with the city ofRome.
Because he didn't live in theApostolic Palace.
And not living in the ApostolicPalace for Roman citizen is a
huge breach.
Why?
Because people from Rome likedto go in the square, just
(20:51):
wandering, and check if the Popewas awakened.
SPEAKER_01 (20:54):
Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
So because the light was up.
And you could see the light.
And you could see when the Popewas sleeping or if the Pope was
there.
What do you
SPEAKER_01 (21:02):
think about that?
That he chose to not be in theWell,
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
I didn't like it for starters, but I didn't like it
because it's something thatconnects you very much with the
people.
SPEAKER_01 (21:12):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (21:12):
This
SPEAKER_01 (21:14):
pope was a contrarian.
He definitely was kind of likeSt.
Francis.
He wanted to live a life ofpoverty, so he didn't want to be
at the papal palace and hewanted to be...
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Yeah, with the exception that the papal palace
is not for rich.
It's an apartment.
It's good.
It's very dignified.
But the issue is that he didn'twant to live in a place where he
felt alone.
And in a hotel, he never feltalone because there were people
around all the time.
He doesn't have a family.
That's the point.
Generally, there is a pontificalfamily that lives with you.
SPEAKER_01 (21:44):
Oh,
SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (21:45):
For example, Benedict XVI had four
consecrated women that livedwith him and his secretary.
So he had a sort of family.
And the same John Paul II.
John Paul II had his secretary,Cardinal Givish, and then the
other secretary.
And then John Paul II liked tohost people for dinners and
meals.
He never ate alone, never inlife.
So he always had some people forlunch or for dinner.
(22:07):
So he didn't feel alone.
But Pope Francis never had thiskind of thing.
I wonder
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
why.
SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
It's his choice.
I don't know here.
He's a loner.
He's a loner, yeah.
So he decided to do that.
And since he's not, not even,he's Argentinian, not even
European, he doesn't get thiskind of connection because in
Argentina it's different.
This kind of connection issomething you very much perceive
in Rome because Rome has alwaysbeen pepally.
But you very much perceive in,when you are European because in
(22:36):
Europe you have this thing that,you know, the, bishops were also
princes somehow, so they hadthis connection with the people.
So in this case, we lost theconnection.
So even when he died, we didn'thave the huge procession of
people that went to accompanyJohn Paul II's agony in the
square, but they were in thesquare because they knew that
(22:57):
John Paul II was in that window.
So there was this connectionthat we lost with this papacy.
SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
Do you want, Andrea, to go back to the tradition?
Yeah.
Okay, you do.
Okay, great.
SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
Well, I would love that, yeah.
Well, I think the ApostolicPalace is more pragmatic for
many reasons.
First, secondly, it's nice forpeople to see the Pope.
Third, it's not a lack ofprivacy.
Fourth, it's not luxury.
And it's very pragmatic for thePope because he lives here and
all his activities are here.
Sure, yes.
So I would love that,
SPEAKER_01 (23:27):
yeah.
I was told that he appointed,Pope Francis appointed...
cardinals that were verylike-minded like him.
SPEAKER_00 (23:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:37):
How do you think that will affect the next
election?
SPEAKER_00 (23:41):
I don't think it will affect the election that
much, and I will tell you why.
Generally, you know, all thepopes create cardinals that are
like-minded, you know, it'snormal.
You appoint people you like andyou feel fit with.
But the issue is that when thepope dies, the pope is dead.
SPEAKER_02 (23:59):
And
SPEAKER_00 (24:00):
you have 133 old people that are secluded in a
place and they're discussingabout the challenges they're
expecting and whatsoever.
The point is that as long asthey talk, they can change their
mind very quickly.
Things can happen very, veryeasily.
You know, you do a bad joke atlunch and you lose 40 votes.
(24:21):
I wouldn't last a minute.
Yeah, well, that's the point.
So I don't think it's going toaffect that because it affects
very much...
It affects very much thediscussions before.
But once you get in, everythingchanges.
It's a different environment.
You know, cardinals are totallyforbidden from having any kind
of connection with the externalworld.
(24:43):
During this time.
During the conclave.
SPEAKER_02 (24:45):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
So the windows are shut down.
The windows are sealed in theirrooms.
They cannot even look out of thewindow.
SPEAKER_01 (24:53):
That's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (24:54):
They have to give all the laptops, all the phones.
Phones! Everything.
No connection.
And the Vatican City State isshielded.
Because no interference.
SPEAKER_01 (25:06):
By the Swiss guards?
SPEAKER_00 (25:07):
No, by the police, by the Vatican police.
Oh,
SPEAKER_01 (25:08):
interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (25:09):
So no interference.
It's impossible.
So when you're at security, youjust have time to think, read,
and talk.
SPEAKER_01 (25:15):
Talk with the other cardinals.
SPEAKER_00 (25:16):
You have nothing else.
And often you don't talk becauseyou're tired and because you
spend a lot of time there.
So sometimes you just need topray.
I do remember a cardinal afterthe 2013 conclave.
I met him after, and I askedhim, what did you do after the
conclave?
I said, listen, after the PopeFrancis inaugural mass, I went
(25:38):
back home.
It was Italian, so there was nota long journey.
So I went back home right away.
I didn't want to stay in Romeone more day.
It was too much.
And then first thing, I went tomy hometown and I bought a slice
of pizza.
I was not hungry, but I neededto get in touch with reality.
I needed something concrete.
(25:59):
So that gives you very much theidea of how they are there.
So that's why I don't think it'sgoing to be affected by
like-minded people because whatyou feel there is different.
SPEAKER_01 (26:09):
So building on that a little bit, there's a lot of
talk about the church beingdivided right now.
SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
Do you think that like-minded or not like-minded,
all the cardinals will wantsomeone that can unify the
church?
And how do you think that willwork?
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
Well, the role of the Pope is actually the role of
bringing unity to the Church.
The Pope is a guarantor ofunity, first of all.
We lost a little this ideabecause, especially the last
Popes, they were very muchevangelizers, they went to world
peripheries, not only PopeFrancis, but also John Paul II
with all the trips.
And we like this idea, it's verycharismatic and very good for
(26:48):
media and it's wonderful.
But the first role of the Popeis being the guarantor of the
unity of faith.
So I must assume that cardinalslook for somebody like that.
You know, we're human.
We divide in many stupid things,we divide on many big things.
So they will look for a pacifiersomehow, I would say, I would
think, but I don't know if theywill succeed.
(27:11):
For example, Pope Francis was insome ways a sort of bridge
between two worlds.
So they were looking for abridge.
but Pope Francis has his way ofgoverning, and the way of
governing always createsdivisions.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
He was very different.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
He was very different.
But, I mean, even Benedict XVI,that made of all his pontificate
a huge attempt to bring unity,actually created divisions
because there are always peoplethat disagree with you.
So bringing unity is the firsttask, but it's not that easy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
Yeah, agree.
Let's talk about some of thecandidates.
What do you think the top fivecandidates are?
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Oh, in this very moment, it's kind of hard
because things have changed veryquickly in the last few days.
Obviously, Cardinal Parolin isconsidered a big...
From
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
where?
Tell all of their nationalities.
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
He's Italian and he's been the Secretary of State
of Pope Francis.
He's kind
SPEAKER_01 (28:09):
of like the favorite one everyone's talking about.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
Everybody's talking about him because since the
College of Cardinals is veryscattered and they've never met
together, he's one of the fewthat everybody knows because
he's been traveling, he's beenrepresenting Pope Francis in
many situations, and he has avery mild personality.
persona is very, very good inhandling dialogue.
So everybody likes him for that.
SPEAKER_01 (28:29):
He's already a
SPEAKER_00 (28:29):
shoe-in.
Yeah.
So everybody knows him.
Then, obviously, you have othernames.
There is Cardinal Erdo fromHungary.
Cardinal Erdo has been acardinal since 2002, which means
that he was created cardinal byJohn Paul II.
He's one of the five cardinalsthat entered the conclave and
that already did two conclavesbefore.
Some of them never entered one,but he has the experience of
(28:50):
two.
This is his third.
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Good point.
SPEAKER_00 (28:52):
And he's moderate, he's conservative, he's a canon
lawyer, which means that he'svery much able to bring...
He's a canon lawyer.
Yeah.
He brings order, very much.
Not charismatic, but not evenParolin is very much
charismatic, you know, butstill.
Then, well, I like to mentionCardinal Cristóbal López, that
is Spanish, but is actuallyArchbishop of Rabat in Morocco.
(29:15):
Cristóbal López is Salesian, andhe's a very...
like spectacular person.
He is a trained journalist,becomes a legion, missionary in
South America and then inAfrica, and now Cardinal Rabat.
He's very charismatic.
When you listen to him, youthink that everything he's
(29:35):
saying is good, even if it'snot.
It's very good in that.
It's great.
We
SPEAKER_01 (29:39):
call that the gift of Gab.
SPEAKER_00 (29:40):
Yeah, he has that.
He has that, yeah.
And I think his name is going tobe pitched.
Then, well, we have CardinalPizzaballa, that is Italian, but
is patriarch of Jerusalem.
His name is being very much inthe row now, but I think he's...
SPEAKER_01 (29:58):
He's my favorite.
SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
Oh, I like him, but I think, you know, things are
changing for him so far, so Idon't think he's gaining so many
votes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:06):
I like him and Hungary.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
Oh, yeah, I like them both, too, and I can say
I'm in good relations with both.
And then there is this name thatis coming out that is Cardinal
Aveline from France, Archbishopof
SPEAKER_01 (30:17):
Marseille.
That's one I have not heard.
SPEAKER_00 (30:21):
Somebody pitched this name.
Aveline has a huge problem thathe doesn't speak Italian.
And that's...
That's a problem.
Yeah, he learned, but in themeantime, that will trick him
very much here.
So it can be a problem.
It can be a problem.
But these are the five namesthat are being pitched now in
general.
But I really think that thingswill change very quickly.
(30:42):
We have still three days off tothe Conclave.
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
Who's your favorite out of those five?
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
Cristóbal López.
I always thought that CristóbalLópez could make it.
Since I met him first time andhe was Archbishop, because I saw
the charisma.
And the thing is this, thatsince they don't know each
other, they will easily rememberthe most the people who talk
better.
SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
The charismatic one.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:04):
I have a question for you.
Why can an American not be thePope?
It's never in the running.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
In this moment, because...
I saw
SPEAKER_01 (31:14):
the face you made.
You went, ooh, in this moment?
SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
Yeah, in this moment, you don't have so much
people's stuff among Americancardinals.
You know, to be...
A pope, you need a series ofcharacters.
You need to be very widely knownat international level.
You need to know the Roman Curiavery well, or at least to be
able to handle with that.
You need to be well known, andyou need to get along with
(31:37):
people.
So Americans, easily they don'tspeak other languages.
That's not true.
Easily.
I have
SPEAKER_01 (31:44):
lots of American priest friends here that speak
multiple languages.
SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
But how many cardinals?
That's the point.
SPEAKER_01 (31:51):
Does Dolan speak Italian?
SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
Dolan speaks some Italian.
SPEAKER_01 (31:55):
There you go.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
Some Italian.
Not perfect, but some Italian.
Cupich doesn't speak any, forexample.
Tobin speaks Italian becausehe's been in the Curia.
Tobin could be the most eligibleone, I would say.
But I
SPEAKER_01 (32:06):
feel like there's something more behind an
American not becoming a pope.
It's sort of,
SPEAKER_00 (32:12):
you know, you need some institutionality to get
there, and still they're not inIran.
But I would say this is...
just the generational, becauseif you went back to
generational, there was CardinalSpellman in the 40s and 50s, the
Archbishop of New York.
Cardinal Spellman could verymuch be papal material, but in
that time they were electingjust Italians.
(32:33):
So it depends.
You know, history has its waysometimes.
Things happen in a way thatyou...
There's
SPEAKER_01 (32:39):
never been an American pope.
SPEAKER_00 (32:40):
No.
No, there has never been,because when the American
hierarchy was set up, it was18th century.
Mostly, you know, PhiladelphiaArchdiocese was 17-something, so
not long ago.
And then American cardinals camea little later when the diocese
became bigger, so it took sometime.
So you need some generation toget there.
(33:02):
But if you think about that, wehad a lot of African popes,
although we don't think aboutthat, because North African
popes, like St.
Augustine was North African, forexample, not pope, but you had a
North African pope.
And you have Asian popes,because if you think there were
popes from the Middle East, 13from St.
Peter.
Sure,
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
of
SPEAKER_00 (33:19):
course.
So it's not just a Europeanthing, but it became a European
thing and mostly a Roman thing.
In Rome, we had theEnlightenment, and with the
Enlightenment, there was this...
like a rebellion against thechurch.
So the nation state were foundedand the church was marginalized.
So that's why the church gotback to have Italians because
(33:40):
they were mostly in their state.
The church had a state.
And so they mostly had Italians.
And in that moment, the churchhad Every state in Europe is an
enemy.
So things change step by step,but it takes time.
History is a strange animal.
It takes time to get arrestedsomehow.
SPEAKER_01 (34:00):
Thank you, Andrea, for coming and talking with us
here in Rome.
Italian journalist,Vaticanologist.
No, that's not the right name.
It works well.
Vaticanologist.
Wow, what a wealth ofinformation.
Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_00 (34:15):
Thank you for having me.
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