July 16, 2025 • 37 mins
Join Delia Gallagher, veteran Vatican correspondent and author, as she shares her unique journey from an Irish-American Catholic upbringing to becoming a leading journalist covering three popes, including John Paul II and Pope Francis. Delia offers deep insights into reporting on the Catholic Church's most challenging moments, including the sex abuse crisis, balancing faith with journalistic integrity. Hear touching stories about Pope John Paul II's charisma, the impact of the sex abuse scandal on the Church, and personal reflections on faith and prayer, including a remarkable story of a pregnancy aligned with a saint’s feast day. This episode reveals the human side of the Vatican and the resilience of faith during times of trial.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
We're here in Rome, beyond Saint, with Delia
Gallagher, Vaticanologist,author, journalist,
correspondent to the Pope, JohnPaul II.
Tell me how
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
an American girl ends up being a Vatican
correspondent.
Well, I think, you know, it'slike anything in life.
I think if you follow what youreally love, then you somehow,
it ends up working out.
working out in terms of a job ifyou're lucky.
I was just always interested init.
I grew up Catholic.
(00:37):
My parents are from Ireland, soIrish Catholic.
And so I followed that, even notknowing at the time, you know,
what are you going to do withit?
And there wasn't really aposition, at least for the
English-speaking press, of aVatican journalist.
The Italians have always hadjournalists specifically
covering the Vatican.
In January 2002, Pope John PaulII called over all of the
(01:03):
American cardinals for the sexabuse crisis.
So actual my career I wasalready at the Vatican I was
working for a small magazine butmy career in television
journalism with CNN began atthat time because obviously
everybody in the US was veryinterested in what was going on
over here and and from that timeon we more or less kind of
(01:26):
continued to have a relationshipcovering specifically the
Vatican but I have to say likeanything it's I think
providential that you Determinewhat you really love in life
even though you don't know wherethat's going to take you.
And I've been fortunate thatit's brought me to Rome and I've
(01:48):
loved every minute of it really.
I'm on three popes now.
This is my third pope with PopeFrancis.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
I know.
I want to get all into thepopes,
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
especially my favorite one.
Who's your favorite one?
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
John Paul II.
Oh, yeah.
But you said that you wereoriginally called to cover the
sex abuse cases.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Yes.
How did you balance yourjournalistic integrity with your
faith to make sure it waslike...
Well, it's not difficultbecause, of course, as a
Catholic, you feel it even more,the scandal of it, I would say.
So there was absolutely noquestion but that...
(02:28):
I perhaps was even harder on thechurch because these are people
that I know, these are peoplethat are good and holy men that
have failed massively in theworst case, worst way possible.
So I think as a Catholic, youdon't have that problem because
(02:49):
you actually feel it much morepersonally and you're, if
possible, even more outragedthan people who are outside of
church and I think that thatgoes for most Catholics I can't
speak for everybody butcertainly at that time all of us
covering those cases you're partof it you know and so in a way
(03:14):
it's it's a disaster foreverybody of course mostly for
the victims and for theirfamilies but I can't say that I
think everybody was touched bythe cases of sexual abuse.
SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
I interviewed a priest, Father Daniel Rehill,
and I told him, one of thebiggest criticisms I get about
our faith is these sexualscandals that have happened.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
And he was a victim of inappropriate behavior by a
priest, and he ended up becominga priest himself.
I said, how did you not let thataffect your whole life, your
faith?
He
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
said, I abandoned the faith, I healed, I came
back, but he said, Yes, it's ahuge deal.
It's inexcusable.
It's horrible.
We have to find ways to dealwith it.
However, like in other
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
institutions where sexual abuse occurs, like the
public school system,
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
like
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
the public school system does not get attacked.
It's like the individual, butfor some reason it gets, for us,
it gets generalized to the wholechurch.
And it's like really less than,I don't know, very single
digits.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
That kind of helped me put it in perspective.
He's like, people still sendtheir kids to public school.
You know, there's not a stigmaaround the public
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
school system.
Yes, although of course part ofthe severe delusion of people
with regard to the CatholicChurch and sex abuse is
precisely that.
Catholic priests should be heldto a higher moral standard.
It's true.
They should be.
And so it is something almostworse if we want to put it in
(04:48):
those kind of qualitative waysthan other types of sexual abuse
because they are authorityfigures and they are religious
authority figures.
They're supposed to be bringingpeople to God.
So I think understandably therewas more outrage.
Then of course you can talkabout the general biases and
things like that when it when itcomes to Catholic things in
(05:08):
general, and certainly the sexabuse cases were of interest to
the media also because of that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Okay, so you traveled and
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
covered John Paul II, my favorite pope.
Can you tell me what theday-to-day of that looked like?
So I came into his pontificatewhen he was in the last, let's
say, five years.
He died in 2005.
And I was in Rome since 1998,covering it for a magazine
(05:41):
inside the Vatican magazine,which is a wonderful
publication.
And I learned a lot, you know,kind of just going every day,
trying, knocking on doors.
We didn't have, you know,internet or email at that time.
So it was really a differenttime.
And it was one of thosepontificates, I have to say now
(06:02):
we have comparisons, right?
And really John Paul II, even inthose last years, had a star
quality.
There's no, even up close,especially up close.
Really?
What you saw on television, hehad up close.
I mean, I really haven't comeacross anybody who had that kind
(06:22):
of magnetism and that kind ofcharisma, I have to say.
I understand why he's yourfavorite pope.
And as I say, he was already illwhen, you know, the last five
years we saw the decline withhis Parkinson's and his slurred
speech and so on.
And the problem was that peopleare always afraid he was going
(06:42):
to die.
You know, it was like, oh, he'sgetting worse, he's getting
worse.
I feel like sometimes...
This kind of, you know, right,when you get towards the end of
a punter and everybody getsnervous and every kind of cough
and everything.
And I remember about a yearbefore he died, he was out here
in St.
Peter's Square.
holding his regular audience,and masses of people came.
(07:02):
I mean, he was such a figure.
You can't even compare it evento Francis.
People just came to the Vaticanand busloads, and he always had
huge crowds.
And he's giving a talk, so hehas his papers, and he's
outside, and the crowds arethere, and everybody's clapping.
But his speech was already veryslurred.
(07:23):
I don't know if you remember,and his head was kind of tilted,
and he had only one good eye.
Of course.
And it was hard to understandhim sometimes.
And we used to watch on themonitor from the Vatican press
office, because that was the wayto kind of see him up close.
And you could go outside and seethe crowds, but then you'd go
back inside and kind of watchhim up close.
(07:43):
And so he's talking, and he alsohad belabored breathing, so he
paused at a certain point.
And the pause got longer.
And the bus got longer, and hishead is kind of down like this.
And so the crowd starts, youknow, John Paul II, we love you,
and singing and clapping, youknow.
(08:04):
And he doesn't pick up hisspeech.
And so I remember the moment inthe press office, and we all ran
up to the monitor.
We're just glued.
Everybody's, you know, justglued to this.
Pick up the speech, you know.
And what's happened?
Like, has he had a stroke?
Has he, you know.
So I'm telling you, it seemed anattorney.
I don't know how many minutes itwas.
(08:25):
And you see his hand kind of golike this.
And the crowd is chanting.
The crowd gets louder, and theystart singing.
And John Paul II, we love you.
And he still doesn't pick up thespeech.
And so from behind, you see hisprivate secretary, who is
Stanislaw Dziwicz, come up tothe pope.
And he taps his papers likethat.
(08:47):
And then he goes back.
And then you hear the Pope say,They're telling me to get on
with it.
That's so funny.
Did he fall asleep?
No, he was enjoying the crowd.
He had taken a breath.
He'd taken a breath.
The crowd started chanting andsinging.
And he's going like this withhis hand.
(09:08):
Oh, like louder and louder.
Because he loved it.
Oh, I love it.
He was that kind of a thing.
You know, you have to be a bitextroverted.
We saw with Benedict, forexample, who's an introvert.
You've got to be extroverted tobe...
Francis?
Francis is an extrovert.
He gets the energy from thecrowds, especially from meeting
regular people, let's say.
(09:28):
He really enjoys thoseinteractions more than with the
diplomats and things like that.
Francis is definitely a people'spoet.
But John Paul II lovedeverybody.
And he took the time with you.
And he, you know, so that washis moment, even when we
thought, oh gosh, it's all over.
And he was totally there.
And he was enjoying the moment.
(09:51):
He was just enjoying the moment.
I love it.
You told me a story about thepregnancy with JP, too.
Do you feel comfortable saying?
Yeah, that's fine.
It's a personal story, so Idon't want you.
No, that's fine.
So I got married late.
I was 41.
And so, you know...
in the course of trying to getpregnant, a year went by and I'd
(10:12):
had three miscarriages veryearly on.
And I thought, oh, well, youknow, my doctor said, well, you
know, you're older and, youknow, you maybe have to think
about doing some other kind ofways of getting pregnant.
But again, going back to theProvidence thing, I just
thought, you know, I'm the kindof person that says it's either
going to be this way or it's notfor me and I'll accept that.
(10:33):
So the doctor said, you know,come back after the summer and
if nothing's happened, we'lltalk about other possibilities.
And I really kind of knew Ididn't want to do that.
So I said, well, I'd better, youknow, say a novena.
And the novena is of course thegreat Catholic prayer for a
special intention, right?
And you do sort of nine days ofa prayer to a saint for an
(10:57):
intercession from a saint.
So you have your saint business.
And the idea of the saints isthat they, through them, they
can pray and help you on behalfof God.
So you ask for their help,basically.
So I was thinking to myself,okay, so what saint can I pray
to?
(11:18):
And I had a rosary that JohnPaul II had given to me
personally, and I thought, well,I'll pray to him, but he wasn't
a saint yet.
And so, you know, myprofessional deformation is
like, well, no, you have to prayto a saint, otherwise it's not
going to work.
And I thought, well, who wouldhe pray to?
And I thought of Our Lady ofFatima, because Our Lady of
(11:39):
Fatima, her feast day is May13th, and on May 13th, 1981, he
had the assassination attempt,and he believes that she She
saved his life because ithappened on her feast day.
And in fact subsequently he wentback to give thanks to her in
Fatima and put the bullet intoher crown in Fatima.
(12:02):
It was a beautiful event.
So he was very devoted to OurLady of Fatima.
So I said, okay, he's not asaint yet but I'm going to use
his rosary and I'm going to prayto Our Lady of Fatima for this
pregnancy.
And keep in mind, I was able toget pregnant.
I just wasn't carrying thepregnancies.
So I did my Novena.
(12:23):
So often it happens with prayerthat you do it in a very fervent
state and then you kind offorget.
You forget about it.
So I went, I did get pregnant atthe end of August and I went
back to the doctor in September.
Nice German doctor here in Rome.
And the first thing, you'll knowthis when you go to your doctor
(12:45):
and you're pregnant is he has tocalculate the expected date of
birth so they can see theprogression of the pregnancy.
So I give him my information,and he does his little
calculations, and he says to me,okay, so according to this, the
expected date of birth is May13th.
Chills.
(13:05):
Chills.
I love that story.
I just love it.
I know.
Because I had forgotten aboutit, and when he said May 13th, I
said, the novena.
And I knew that that would bethe one that's stuck, you know?
And that's my daughter,Charlotte, actually.
I love it.
That's like a miracle.
(13:25):
Yeah.
I consider it a miracle formyself.
I do, too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
That's why I
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
wanted you to tell everyone that story.
Yeah.
I love that story.
But, you know, the problem is,of course, that for many people,
pray...
for pregnancies and don't havethat, right?
So that's why I think it'salways important to come back to
the idea of what is meant foryou in your life, what is
providential.
I had a wonderful tutor inOxford, I went to Blackfriars
(13:50):
with the Dominicans in Oxford,Herbert McCabe, and he said,
talking about prayer, he said,you know, when we pray, God
doesn't need our prayers, butGod prays through us.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
I like
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
that.
So I think the idea there isthat Catholics believe that God
is creative thought, that Godcreated the world by thinking
it.
And that you participate inGod's thought.
(14:27):
we with our minds, you know, weare made in the image and
likeness of God.
So our minds also participate.
That's why the kind of idea ofrationality and reason is so
important in the CatholicChurch.
And so by participating in this,if it's in God's thought for me
to be pregnant, then that willoccur if I'm praying for it and
(14:49):
the things are sort of alignedas it were.
But that might not be theprovidence or the thought of God
for somebody else.
So, you know, I think that it'simportant to say that.
It's not just, well, you prayfor things and then they happen.
They happen if they're meant foryou.
Of
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
course.
Then things that you don'texpect happen too.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Yes, bad things you mean.
SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
No, bad things and good things.
Like I never, I had twobiological children of my own
and I thought, okay, like thisis it.
I didn't, you know, they wereprobably 14 or 15 when I met
this young little boy.
Something in me said, okay, takehim in.
Like, I never expected that inmy life.
(15:35):
And, you know, you probablyexpect it to have children or
other people.
And like, maybe there's adifferent path for those people.
You know,
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
there's always a different path.
And then I took this child inand he's been such a blessing.
How did you get that idea?
Something was in my heart.
But you hadn't been thinkingabout it beforehand, like maybe
I would adopt somebody?
I had thought about it verycasually, but like 10
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
years prior.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Maybe as I was having my second child.
And now like fast forward like14 years and I'm like, you know
what?
You can't just keep taking fromthe universe.
You got to give back.
And I thought to myself,
SPEAKER_00 (16:10):
like, let me just
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
do this and...
make a difference in the world,you know?
So
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
life has its...
But yeah, but see, there'ssomething beautiful there
because it's also about theconnections with other people.
I mean, we don't live on ourown.
And so the whole idea ofcommunity and what is in my...
providential stream kind ofcomes forth with other peoples.
And I think that's really at theheart of it, right, is this
(16:38):
relational aspect of all of us.
And again, that's a big thingalso in the Catholic Church.
That's why they say God is atrinity, because God is also
relational.
And so we are also relational.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Okay, thank you.
But I want to ask you, any otherpersonal stories about the other
popes?
SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
I had a great time with Benedict XVI because he was
here as Cardinal under John PaulII.
He was here for 26 years.
Everybody knew him.
I forgot that.
Yes.
I mean, Cardinal Ratzinger isone of the major theologians for
the Catholic Church in the 20thcentury.
There's just no two ways aboutit.
(17:23):
And if you are interested in anyway in the Catholic Church, his
writings are the thing to go tobecause he really has a
wonderful way of explainingthings and And thinking and not
shying away from difficultquestions.
So any kind of question that youhave about, you know, well, why
is there evil?
Or did Jesus really resurrect?
(17:44):
And all of those questions, hejust answers them straight on in
a beautiful and easy tounderstand way.
You know, it takes time to getinto it and think about it.
Where
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
can people find that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
He's written loads of things, but I would start
with a book called Introductionto Christianity, which he wrote
actually as a professor in the60s.
And it's all in there.
It's all in there.
(18:37):
Cardinal Ratzinger and then PopeBenedict.
So I would definitely look tohim as somebody who can kind of
explain things in a great way.
And the interesting thing I findwith Francis is where Benedict
brings out this kind ofintellectual side of the
Catholic Church.
And Francis obviously is reallythe heart.
(18:59):
I feel like he's the heart.
Yeah, he's the heart.
And he's the one that's kind ofalways reminding us, and
especially for this year, whichis the Jubilee.
year, you know, to remember toreach out to other people, to do
good acts and works of mercy forother people.
And I would say that's reallythe cornerstone of his message
(19:21):
is kind of bringing down theGospels and all of the teaching
of the Catholic Church, which Ithink is beautifully explicated
by Pope Benedict.
And then you have Pope Francis,who gets to the kind of nitty
gritty practical stuff like goand visit the sick.
Prisoners, he loves to go andvisit prisons.
He did that for the opening ofthis Jubilee in December.
(19:45):
He thinks it's very important,obviously, to not forget those
who are marginalized, includingmigrants and so on.
So all of those things that weall know about Pope Francis
really stem from that idea ofthe Catholic idea of being there
for your neighbor, therelational idea again.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
That's one thing I really like about Pope Francis.
He's really progressedprogressive, which people could
love or hate, but I will saywhether
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
you like him or not like him, he really walks the
walk.
Yeah, and he knows what regularpeople do and think.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
And so, for example, for thisJubilee year, one of the things
that he has suggested, so theJubilee year is a year in the
church that happens basicallyevery 25 years, right?
(20:33):
There can be other years calledby post, but the traditional one
is every 25 years.
And it's basically an invitationto, to deepen your spiritual
life.
And one of the ways you do thatis going on pilgrimage.
So you can come to Rome, you cango through the holy doors at St.
Peter's and at some of the otherbasilicas, and you deepen your
(20:55):
prayer life.
Let's talk about the holy doors.
I thought there was only oneholy door, but there are
several.
Talk about the holy doors alittle bit.
Well, I mean, a holy doorobviously is a great symbol.
The main ones are at St.
Peter's.
They're beautiful.
They have these different panelson them.
Those are like the image thatyou see everywhere exactly the
jubilee and they're only openedduring jubilee years so if you
(21:18):
go inside the basilica on aduring a regular year you'll see
there's a big concrete wallbehind the holy door that has to
be yeah behind ins from theinside of the basilica it's shut
off and it has to be it's it'sconcrete so it has to be knocked
down for the opening and thenyou see the pope will push it
from the outside and then itgoes and opens which he did at
(21:39):
the end of december So the ideais obviously very symbolic,
right?
It's about the threshold.
It's about going from theoutside to the inside, going
into a different way of life, adifferent space.
And ultimately, of course, it'sabout the ultimate threshold,
(21:59):
which is death and the hope thatthere is death.
another life, which is the mainChristian belief.
So it's a hugely symbolic thing.
And there are holy doors at thefour basilicas here that you can
go and visit.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Do you know
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
all four
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
of
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
them?
Yes.
Okay.
The names of them, you mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's St.
Peter's, there's St.
Paul outside the walls where St.
Paul is buried, St.
Mary Major, and St.
John Lateran.
Those are called the fourbasilicas of Rome.
Okay.
So those are the four mainplaces for pilgrimage for this
year, and you can walk throughthis special set of doors there.
(22:44):
But you don't have to come toRome to do a pilgrimage.
You can still do a pilgrimageduring a whole even if you don't
come to Rome.
You can go to your owncathedral, you can go to a
shrine, you can go to a lot ofplaces.
And they all have the doors?
They do not all have the doors.
Okay.
So the doors have to bespecified by the pope.
So, for example, the pope in2015 had a special jubilee year
(23:08):
for mercy.
And that year we went to theCentral African Republic, which
is a country which at the timehad literally no government.
It was in war.
There was no real authoritythere.
And the Pope decided that wasgoing to be the place he wanted
to go.
And he, in the capital there,Bangui, he instituted holy
(23:34):
doors.
And so he can decide indifferent places where he wants
to put the holy doors.
doors but the point is notreally about the doors it's it's
a wonderful symbolic gesture forpeople who can make the
pilgrimage to Rome but itdoesn't need to be about that
it's about your interiordisposition to make a pilgrimage
(23:56):
to deepen your journey to dosomething which will show that
you are dedicated to yourspiritual life.
And there are a couple of thingsthat go along with the
pilgrimage, which is confession.
I was just going to ask, I thinkyou have a week after you walk
through.
Yeah, it's Catholic.
You can be kind of, you know,you can extend it.
(24:20):
You should do it within acertain time frame.
I think even 20 days, they say.
Oh, really?
It's kind
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
of
SPEAKER_00 (24:25):
like taking a communion.
30 minutes, hour before you eat.
Not to eat, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kind of like a little bit soft.
Well, exactly.
I mean, look, these are the kindof norms and then you do your
best to work within them.
But obviously the point is to,it's for your soul.
(24:46):
right right so it's apurification of your soul and
therefore confession isnecessary communion is necessary
and praying for the intentionsof the holy father so whether
you're not you actually walkthrough the doors if you do
those three things and you havethe intention of
SPEAKER_01 (25:03):
name them again the three things
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
so confession Holy Communion and praying for the
intentions of the Holy Father.
And those are what you need todo to participate in this
pilgrimage.
That's really important, Ithink, that you gave those three
intentions.
Yeah.
Because I think it helps peopleprocess it better.
Yeah.
(25:24):
And I think, again, it'ssomething, it's year-long, so
you can kind of decide inparishes if people are Catholic
and go to a parish, they willhave already something set up in
terms of either a pilgrimageabroad here to Rome or something
maybe within your parish, or youcan do it in your own home.
You don't actually have to move.
If people are housebound orsomething, it's about your
(25:45):
intention to participate inthis.
So then Francis, getting back tothe practical guy, says, well,
you can also do some acts ofcharity and mercy.
So you can go and visit thesick.
You can go and visit prisoners.
You can donate money.
You can abstain from futiledistractions.
(26:08):
Like social media.
Like social media.
You don't have to do it thewhole time, but maybe one day a
week, you know?
So you're offering up somethingbecause, of course...
It's a way of fasting.
Sacrifice has to be involved insome way.
Otherwise, there's not a wholepoint.
If you think about purifyingyour body, like how often do we
do all those kind of things topurify our bodies?
(26:29):
Well, there's some sacrificeinvolved in that, right?
Sure.
And it's...
It's the same kind of idea thatyou want to purify your soul
because, of course, you're goingto eventually walk through the
ultimate threshold, the ultimatedoor, which is your death.
SPEAKER_01 (26:45):
That
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
was amazing.
Thank you.
Delia,
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
what are some pressing
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
issues
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
do you think that's facing the Catholic Church?
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
The idea of holiness, and it sounds kind of
strange to say that because it'snot about all of the practical
issues that we often talk about,like the bureaucracy or sex
abuse, which continues,unfortunately, to pop up several
cases here and there and need tobe quickly and efficiently dealt
(27:16):
with.
And still, sometimes thatdoesn't happen.
There are lots of practicalthings about about the Catholic
Church that as an institutionwill always be there and will
need to be, you know, sorted outas it were.
I mean, there are people aboutquestions of women being in
(27:37):
positions of authority, thingslike that that are what I would
call practical issues.
But actually, I think the largerpoint is the question of
spirituality and holiness andallowing people a space and a
ritual and some kind of reasonfor their hope and to bring them
(27:59):
into that world, as it were.
I feel like that's what isreally needed.
And the Catholic Church wouldcall that evangelization, so
letting people know What is itthat Catholics do?
What is it all about?
Why do we do it?
And so on.
And I think that's really themost important thing.
(28:21):
And then I think the other kindof bureaucratic things or
organizational things are kindof common to a lot of
organizations and, yes, areimportant.
But, again, it's more aboutyour...
offering, which the CatholicChurch has a lot to offer in
(28:45):
terms of your prayer life andquestions about God and things
like that.
Now I'm going to ask you just acouple of like fun questions.
How do you split your time?
Those were fun questions too, bythe way.
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
How do you split your time?
Do you live mostly in Rome?
Do you ever go back?
I mean, I
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
know you go back.
I was just back in Los Angeles.
Can you believe it?
Horrible.
My brother lives in Brentwood.
I know.
His house was spared, but wewere just there.
I had to evacuate.
You did.
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Yeah, but I was very, very lucky.
My house did not burn down,
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
but you're mostly here.
Mostly here.
I'm married to an Italian.
I have two children that go toItalian schools.
They're little Romans.
And so, yeah, my life is here.
I mean, we're really fortunate.
We have a house in the country,and so we can go away on the
weekends.
But, you know, the worksituation with the Pope and the
(29:36):
Vatican is kind ofall-consuming, right?
Right.
So really, it's just—and I loveit.
I love it here.
So I don't—I get back toCalifornia, you know, once a
year, maybe Thanksgiving orChristmas.
depending.
But otherwise, yeah, I'm veryItaly based, unless the Pope
travels.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
What's the best part of living in Rome?
SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
You know, the best part is the rhythm of life.
It's the rhythm of life, whichis There's a great Italian
phrase.
It's like, appasso dell'uomo.
It goes along with how we are ashumans, which is we don't need
to be rushing all the time.
(30:20):
It's kind of a joke where if youtell an Italian the appointment
is at 11.
Oh, yeah.
I learned that the hard way.
It's kind of elastic.
But the point is that, and thishappens all the time with my
husband because I'm stillAmerican.
If you tell me 11, I'm there at5 to 11 and I ring at 11.
There's nothing like American
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
customer service.
I will
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
say that.
Well, that goes along with it.
We're efficient people.
And so the idea of wasting timeor wasting someone else's time,
but Italians don't consider itwasting.
It's not wasted because if on myway here, I run into somebody, I
don't say, oh, sorry, I got togo.
I'm late.
You know, it's like they stop.
You might even have a coffeewith them, you know, because the
(31:01):
other, it's okay.
I mean, so it's living themoment.
I can't adjust to that still.
I know.
I've been here 25 years.
I still kind of, you know.
I have a funny story.
It was a coin and I'm like, I'dlike to try on these boots,
please.
They're like, okay.
I'm like, okay, five minutes.
I was returning emails, calls.
I'm like, It's been 20 minutes.
(31:24):
Can I try these boots on,please?
I'm like, I had to go get themanager, and they're like, okay,
calm down, you crazy American.
I know.
That's what it is.
But I'm like, I'm getting usedto it, you know?
I know.
I have so many funny storiesabout time and Italians.
Is there anything that you missfrom the United States?
I miss that energy, thatpositive energy of people doing
(31:47):
a lot of wonderful things.
Or people being very excitedabout what you're doing and
interested in that.
So, you know, Rome inparticular, because of course
Italy is slightly different fromnorth to south.
I know, it's all differentcountries here.
Milan has a different kind ofwork.
Rome is much easier paced.
(32:09):
It's like the south.
Yeah, so I think on balance Ilove that as much as it tends to
sometimes get a little swampybecause then it's kind of hard
to get your stuff done becauseit can all wait.
I compare Milan to New York andRome to L.A., In a way, if you
(32:30):
can.
Well, I'm a San Francisco girl,so L.A., I don't really know,
but I think the vibe in L.A.
is pretty much let's get itdone.
It's more laid back than NewYork.
It's more laid back, but it'sstill compared to Rome.
100%.
It's still like, yeah.
It's about getting the meetingsdone and what are you doing
(32:51):
next.
The funny thing is, Italiansdon't really ask you, what are
you doing?
What projects are you workingon?
It's just like, how are you?
I know.
What are you doing?
But not your work.
That's not the first thing.
I
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
know, it's
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
weird.
But that's great.
But we could learn from that asAmericans, right?
100%.
That's where
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
the term La Dolce Vita
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
or whatever.
Yeah, that's what it is.
La Dolce Parnente or all thosesayings come from.
And it's true.
very important what you'reeating.
Obviously.
Meals have to be decided.
By the way, I do that in LA.
That's why I think I fit in sowell here.
I think about the food I'meating.
I will say, this is so funny,but the best Chinese food I had
(33:33):
was in Rome.
Really?
You have to tell me where.
It's delicious.
It's between Piazza di Spagnaand Piazza del Popolo.
But the food in Italy, I mean,anywhere I travel, I'll say...
They'll be like, did you likeGreece?
I was like, yeah, it wasamazing.
But it's not Italy.
You love Italy.
I love Italy.
Who doesn't?
(33:54):
Yeah.
I love it.
But OK, so who's your favoritesaint and why?
Oh, my goodness.
Let's see.
I kind of have a lot.
I don't want to say a favorite.
Three, top three.
Should I say Catherine of Siena?
She's a patron saint ofjournalists and I think a
wonderful woman.
And Italy, one of the patronsaints of Italy, I think.
(34:14):
Yeah.
I like the strong women saintsbecause I think when people say,
you know, women in the CatholicChurch, we are thinking of kind
of modern times and who'sworking at the Vatican, but
really women in the history ofthe Catholic Church have been
amazing women.
And I've been fortunate also tohave been taught by wonderful
nuns and women.
(34:37):
So I appreciate women saints alot.
I love Padre Pio.
Another Italian saint.
I think he's...
He's somebody also that youlike, and he's a big saint here
in Italy.
I'm going to
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
go visit his shrine
SPEAKER_00 (34:53):
next week.
Yeah, you know, he's just suchan interesting kind of life.
So I would say that.
And then, of course, I'll haveto say, you know, St.
John Paul II.
You've got to give your boyssome props here.
St.
Mother Teresa?
St.
Mother Teresa?
Yeah, she's been a reallyimportant figure, I think, also
(35:17):
because of her...
many, many years of doubt anddarkness that came out when she
was going to be beatified.
It came out that she hadsuffered so many years of real
doubt and real torment.
I didn't know that.
Yes, I know.
People don't realize that.
She was this smiling nun andthis go-getter.
(35:39):
But actually, for severaldecades with her spiritual
director and in her writings, itwas all kept secret until she
was beatified, she sufferedgreat, great doubts.
And I love that because it's sohuman.
It's so human.
(35:59):
And it's also something whichconnects us to people who don't
believe because it's like, well,you probably doubt sometimes
too, whether it's good tobelieve or it's right to believe
or there's something to believe.
So I love that there's thatconnection.
that human, that humanness of,you know, sometimes you say,
(36:19):
hmm.
Yeah.
Thank you, Delia, so
SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
much.
I was, like, so intimidatedinterviewing you.
I was like, God, what am I doingthis lady for?
Oh, thanks
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
for having me.
Because you're such a wealth ofknowledge and you're such a pro.
She's probably thinking, why isthis stooge interviewing me?
No, I love it.
I love what you're doing.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for allowingme to interview you.
Good for you.
I mean, honestly, it's such ablessing to have people like you
that bring this kind of newlight and life to the Catholic
Church.
I think that's wonderful.
You do a great job.
SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
All right.
UNKNOWN (36:50):
you
We're here in Rome, beyond Saint, with Delia
Gallagher, Vaticanologist,author, journalist,
correspondent to the Pope, JohnPaul II.
Tell me how
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
an American girl ends up being a Vatican
correspondent.
Well, I think, you know, it'slike anything in life.
I think if you follow what youreally love, then you somehow,
it ends up working out.
working out in terms of a job ifyou're lucky.
I was just always interested init.
I grew up Catholic.
(00:37):
My parents are from Ireland, soIrish Catholic.
And so I followed that, even notknowing at the time, you know,
what are you going to do withit?
And there wasn't really aposition, at least for the
English-speaking press, of aVatican journalist.
The Italians have always hadjournalists specifically
covering the Vatican.
In January 2002, Pope John PaulII called over all of the
(01:03):
American cardinals for the sexabuse crisis.
So actual my career I wasalready at the Vatican I was
working for a small magazine butmy career in television
journalism with CNN began atthat time because obviously
everybody in the US was veryinterested in what was going on
over here and and from that timeon we more or less kind of
(01:26):
continued to have a relationshipcovering specifically the
Vatican but I have to say likeanything it's I think
providential that you Determinewhat you really love in life
even though you don't know wherethat's going to take you.
And I've been fortunate thatit's brought me to Rome and I've
(01:48):
loved every minute of it really.
I'm on three popes now.
This is my third pope with PopeFrancis.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
I know.
I want to get all into thepopes,
SPEAKER_00 (01:56):
especially my favorite one.
Who's your favorite one?
SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
John Paul II.
Oh, yeah.
But you said that you wereoriginally called to cover the
sex abuse cases.
SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
Yes.
How did you balance yourjournalistic integrity with your
faith to make sure it waslike...
Well, it's not difficultbecause, of course, as a
Catholic, you feel it even more,the scandal of it, I would say.
So there was absolutely noquestion but that...
(02:28):
I perhaps was even harder on thechurch because these are people
that I know, these are peoplethat are good and holy men that
have failed massively in theworst case, worst way possible.
So I think as a Catholic, youdon't have that problem because
(02:49):
you actually feel it much morepersonally and you're, if
possible, even more outragedthan people who are outside of
church and I think that thatgoes for most Catholics I can't
speak for everybody butcertainly at that time all of us
covering those cases you're partof it you know and so in a way
(03:14):
it's it's a disaster foreverybody of course mostly for
the victims and for theirfamilies but I can't say that I
think everybody was touched bythe cases of sexual abuse.
SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
I interviewed a priest, Father Daniel Rehill,
and I told him, one of thebiggest criticisms I get about
our faith is these sexualscandals that have happened.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
And he was a victim of inappropriate behavior by a
priest, and he ended up becominga priest himself.
I said, how did you not let thataffect your whole life, your
faith?
He
SPEAKER_01 (03:51):
said, I abandoned the faith, I healed, I came
back, but he said, Yes, it's ahuge deal.
It's inexcusable.
It's horrible.
We have to find ways to dealwith it.
However, like in other
SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
institutions where sexual abuse occurs, like the
public school system,
SPEAKER_01 (04:08):
like
SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
the public school system does not get attacked.
It's like the individual, butfor some reason it gets, for us,
it gets generalized to the wholechurch.
And it's like really less than,I don't know, very single
digits.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
That kind of helped me put it in perspective.
He's like, people still sendtheir kids to public school.
You know, there's not a stigmaaround the public
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
school system.
Yes, although of course part ofthe severe delusion of people
with regard to the CatholicChurch and sex abuse is
precisely that.
Catholic priests should be heldto a higher moral standard.
It's true.
They should be.
And so it is something almostworse if we want to put it in
(04:48):
those kind of qualitative waysthan other types of sexual abuse
because they are authorityfigures and they are religious
authority figures.
They're supposed to be bringingpeople to God.
So I think understandably therewas more outrage.
Then of course you can talkabout the general biases and
things like that when it when itcomes to Catholic things in
(05:08):
general, and certainly the sexabuse cases were of interest to
the media also because of that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:18):
Okay, so you traveled and
SPEAKER_00 (05:20):
covered John Paul II, my favorite pope.
Can you tell me what theday-to-day of that looked like?
So I came into his pontificatewhen he was in the last, let's
say, five years.
He died in 2005.
And I was in Rome since 1998,covering it for a magazine
(05:41):
inside the Vatican magazine,which is a wonderful
publication.
And I learned a lot, you know,kind of just going every day,
trying, knocking on doors.
We didn't have, you know,internet or email at that time.
So it was really a differenttime.
And it was one of thosepontificates, I have to say now
(06:02):
we have comparisons, right?
And really John Paul II, even inthose last years, had a star
quality.
There's no, even up close,especially up close.
Really?
What you saw on television, hehad up close.
I mean, I really haven't comeacross anybody who had that kind
(06:22):
of magnetism and that kind ofcharisma, I have to say.
I understand why he's yourfavorite pope.
And as I say, he was already illwhen, you know, the last five
years we saw the decline withhis Parkinson's and his slurred
speech and so on.
And the problem was that peopleare always afraid he was going
(06:42):
to die.
You know, it was like, oh, he'sgetting worse, he's getting
worse.
I feel like sometimes...
This kind of, you know, right,when you get towards the end of
a punter and everybody getsnervous and every kind of cough
and everything.
And I remember about a yearbefore he died, he was out here
in St.
Peter's Square.
holding his regular audience,and masses of people came.
(07:02):
I mean, he was such a figure.
You can't even compare it evento Francis.
People just came to the Vaticanand busloads, and he always had
huge crowds.
And he's giving a talk, so hehas his papers, and he's
outside, and the crowds arethere, and everybody's clapping.
But his speech was already veryslurred.
(07:23):
I don't know if you remember,and his head was kind of tilted,
and he had only one good eye.
Of course.
And it was hard to understandhim sometimes.
And we used to watch on themonitor from the Vatican press
office, because that was the wayto kind of see him up close.
And you could go outside and seethe crowds, but then you'd go
back inside and kind of watchhim up close.
(07:43):
And so he's talking, and he alsohad belabored breathing, so he
paused at a certain point.
And the pause got longer.
And the bus got longer, and hishead is kind of down like this.
And so the crowd starts, youknow, John Paul II, we love you,
and singing and clapping, youknow.
(08:04):
And he doesn't pick up hisspeech.
And so I remember the moment inthe press office, and we all ran
up to the monitor.
We're just glued.
Everybody's, you know, justglued to this.
Pick up the speech, you know.
And what's happened?
Like, has he had a stroke?
Has he, you know.
So I'm telling you, it seemed anattorney.
I don't know how many minutes itwas.
(08:25):
And you see his hand kind of golike this.
And the crowd is chanting.
The crowd gets louder, and theystart singing.
And John Paul II, we love you.
And he still doesn't pick up thespeech.
And so from behind, you see hisprivate secretary, who is
Stanislaw Dziwicz, come up tothe pope.
And he taps his papers likethat.
(08:47):
And then he goes back.
And then you hear the Pope say,They're telling me to get on
with it.
That's so funny.
Did he fall asleep?
No, he was enjoying the crowd.
He had taken a breath.
He'd taken a breath.
The crowd started chanting andsinging.
And he's going like this withhis hand.
(09:08):
Oh, like louder and louder.
Because he loved it.
Oh, I love it.
He was that kind of a thing.
You know, you have to be a bitextroverted.
We saw with Benedict, forexample, who's an introvert.
You've got to be extroverted tobe...
Francis?
Francis is an extrovert.
He gets the energy from thecrowds, especially from meeting
regular people, let's say.
(09:28):
He really enjoys thoseinteractions more than with the
diplomats and things like that.
Francis is definitely a people'spoet.
But John Paul II lovedeverybody.
And he took the time with you.
And he, you know, so that washis moment, even when we
thought, oh gosh, it's all over.
And he was totally there.
And he was enjoying the moment.
(09:51):
He was just enjoying the moment.
I love it.
You told me a story about thepregnancy with JP, too.
Do you feel comfortable saying?
Yeah, that's fine.
It's a personal story, so Idon't want you.
No, that's fine.
So I got married late.
I was 41.
And so, you know...
in the course of trying to getpregnant, a year went by and I'd
(10:12):
had three miscarriages veryearly on.
And I thought, oh, well, youknow, my doctor said, well, you
know, you're older and, youknow, you maybe have to think
about doing some other kind ofways of getting pregnant.
But again, going back to theProvidence thing, I just
thought, you know, I'm the kindof person that says it's either
going to be this way or it's notfor me and I'll accept that.
(10:33):
So the doctor said, you know,come back after the summer and
if nothing's happened, we'lltalk about other possibilities.
And I really kind of knew Ididn't want to do that.
So I said, well, I'd better, youknow, say a novena.
And the novena is of course thegreat Catholic prayer for a
special intention, right?
And you do sort of nine days ofa prayer to a saint for an
(10:57):
intercession from a saint.
So you have your saint business.
And the idea of the saints isthat they, through them, they
can pray and help you on behalfof God.
So you ask for their help,basically.
So I was thinking to myself,okay, so what saint can I pray
to?
(11:18):
And I had a rosary that JohnPaul II had given to me
personally, and I thought, well,I'll pray to him, but he wasn't
a saint yet.
And so, you know, myprofessional deformation is
like, well, no, you have to prayto a saint, otherwise it's not
going to work.
And I thought, well, who wouldhe pray to?
And I thought of Our Lady ofFatima, because Our Lady of
(11:39):
Fatima, her feast day is May13th, and on May 13th, 1981, he
had the assassination attempt,and he believes that she She
saved his life because ithappened on her feast day.
And in fact subsequently he wentback to give thanks to her in
Fatima and put the bullet intoher crown in Fatima.
(12:02):
It was a beautiful event.
So he was very devoted to OurLady of Fatima.
So I said, okay, he's not asaint yet but I'm going to use
his rosary and I'm going to prayto Our Lady of Fatima for this
pregnancy.
And keep in mind, I was able toget pregnant.
I just wasn't carrying thepregnancies.
So I did my Novena.
(12:23):
So often it happens with prayerthat you do it in a very fervent
state and then you kind offorget.
You forget about it.
So I went, I did get pregnant atthe end of August and I went
back to the doctor in September.
Nice German doctor here in Rome.
And the first thing, you'll knowthis when you go to your doctor
(12:45):
and you're pregnant is he has tocalculate the expected date of
birth so they can see theprogression of the pregnancy.
So I give him my information,and he does his little
calculations, and he says to me,okay, so according to this, the
expected date of birth is May13th.
Chills.
(13:05):
Chills.
I love that story.
I just love it.
I know.
Because I had forgotten aboutit, and when he said May 13th, I
said, the novena.
And I knew that that would bethe one that's stuck, you know?
And that's my daughter,Charlotte, actually.
I love it.
That's like a miracle.
(13:25):
Yeah.
I consider it a miracle formyself.
I do, too.
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
That's why I
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
wanted you to tell everyone that story.
Yeah.
I love that story.
But, you know, the problem is,of course, that for many people,
pray...
for pregnancies and don't havethat, right?
So that's why I think it'salways important to come back to
the idea of what is meant foryou in your life, what is
providential.
I had a wonderful tutor inOxford, I went to Blackfriars
(13:50):
with the Dominicans in Oxford,Herbert McCabe, and he said,
talking about prayer, he said,you know, when we pray, God
doesn't need our prayers, butGod prays through us.
SPEAKER_01 (14:05):
I like
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
that.
So I think the idea there isthat Catholics believe that God
is creative thought, that Godcreated the world by thinking
it.
And that you participate inGod's thought.
(14:27):
we with our minds, you know, weare made in the image and
likeness of God.
So our minds also participate.
That's why the kind of idea ofrationality and reason is so
important in the CatholicChurch.
And so by participating in this,if it's in God's thought for me
to be pregnant, then that willoccur if I'm praying for it and
(14:49):
the things are sort of alignedas it were.
But that might not be theprovidence or the thought of God
for somebody else.
So, you know, I think that it'simportant to say that.
It's not just, well, you prayfor things and then they happen.
They happen if they're meant foryou.
Of
SPEAKER_01 (15:07):
course.
Then things that you don'texpect happen too.
SPEAKER_00 (15:13):
Yes, bad things you mean.
SPEAKER_01 (15:14):
No, bad things and good things.
Like I never, I had twobiological children of my own
and I thought, okay, like thisis it.
I didn't, you know, they wereprobably 14 or 15 when I met
this young little boy.
Something in me said, okay, takehim in.
Like, I never expected that inmy life.
(15:35):
And, you know, you probablyexpect it to have children or
other people.
And like, maybe there's adifferent path for those people.
You know,
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
there's always a different path.
And then I took this child inand he's been such a blessing.
How did you get that idea?
Something was in my heart.
But you hadn't been thinkingabout it beforehand, like maybe
I would adopt somebody?
I had thought about it verycasually, but like 10
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
years prior.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Maybe as I was having my second child.
And now like fast forward like14 years and I'm like, you know
what?
You can't just keep taking fromthe universe.
You got to give back.
And I thought to myself,
SPEAKER_00 (16:10):
like, let me just
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
do this and...
make a difference in the world,you know?
So
SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
life has its...
But yeah, but see, there'ssomething beautiful there
because it's also about theconnections with other people.
I mean, we don't live on ourown.
And so the whole idea ofcommunity and what is in my...
providential stream kind ofcomes forth with other peoples.
And I think that's really at theheart of it, right, is this
(16:38):
relational aspect of all of us.
And again, that's a big thingalso in the Catholic Church.
That's why they say God is atrinity, because God is also
relational.
And so we are also relational.
Yeah, it's beautiful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:56):
Okay, thank you.
But I want to ask you, any otherpersonal stories about the other
popes?
SPEAKER_00 (17:02):
I had a great time with Benedict XVI because he was
here as Cardinal under John PaulII.
He was here for 26 years.
Everybody knew him.
I forgot that.
Yes.
I mean, Cardinal Ratzinger isone of the major theologians for
the Catholic Church in the 20thcentury.
There's just no two ways aboutit.
(17:23):
And if you are interested in anyway in the Catholic Church, his
writings are the thing to go tobecause he really has a
wonderful way of explainingthings and And thinking and not
shying away from difficultquestions.
So any kind of question that youhave about, you know, well, why
is there evil?
Or did Jesus really resurrect?
(17:44):
And all of those questions, hejust answers them straight on in
a beautiful and easy tounderstand way.
You know, it takes time to getinto it and think about it.
Where
SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
can people find that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
He's written loads of things, but I would start
with a book called Introductionto Christianity, which he wrote
actually as a professor in the60s.
And it's all in there.
It's all in there.
(18:37):
Cardinal Ratzinger and then PopeBenedict.
So I would definitely look tohim as somebody who can kind of
explain things in a great way.
And the interesting thing I findwith Francis is where Benedict
brings out this kind ofintellectual side of the
Catholic Church.
And Francis obviously is reallythe heart.
(18:59):
I feel like he's the heart.
Yeah, he's the heart.
And he's the one that's kind ofalways reminding us, and
especially for this year, whichis the Jubilee.
year, you know, to remember toreach out to other people, to do
good acts and works of mercy forother people.
And I would say that's reallythe cornerstone of his message
(19:21):
is kind of bringing down theGospels and all of the teaching
of the Catholic Church, which Ithink is beautifully explicated
by Pope Benedict.
And then you have Pope Francis,who gets to the kind of nitty
gritty practical stuff like goand visit the sick.
Prisoners, he loves to go andvisit prisons.
He did that for the opening ofthis Jubilee in December.
(19:45):
He thinks it's very important,obviously, to not forget those
who are marginalized, includingmigrants and so on.
So all of those things that weall know about Pope Francis
really stem from that idea ofthe Catholic idea of being there
for your neighbor, therelational idea again.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
That's one thing I really like about Pope Francis.
He's really progressedprogressive, which people could
love or hate, but I will saywhether
SPEAKER_00 (20:11):
you like him or not like him, he really walks the
walk.
Yeah, and he knows what regularpeople do and think.
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
And so, for example, for thisJubilee year, one of the things
that he has suggested, so theJubilee year is a year in the
church that happens basicallyevery 25 years, right?
(20:33):
There can be other years calledby post, but the traditional one
is every 25 years.
And it's basically an invitationto, to deepen your spiritual
life.
And one of the ways you do thatis going on pilgrimage.
So you can come to Rome, you cango through the holy doors at St.
Peter's and at some of the otherbasilicas, and you deepen your
(20:55):
prayer life.
Let's talk about the holy doors.
I thought there was only oneholy door, but there are
several.
Talk about the holy doors alittle bit.
Well, I mean, a holy doorobviously is a great symbol.
The main ones are at St.
Peter's.
They're beautiful.
They have these different panelson them.
Those are like the image thatyou see everywhere exactly the
jubilee and they're only openedduring jubilee years so if you
(21:18):
go inside the basilica on aduring a regular year you'll see
there's a big concrete wallbehind the holy door that has to
be yeah behind ins from theinside of the basilica it's shut
off and it has to be it's it'sconcrete so it has to be knocked
down for the opening and thenyou see the pope will push it
from the outside and then itgoes and opens which he did at
(21:39):
the end of december So the ideais obviously very symbolic,
right?
It's about the threshold.
It's about going from theoutside to the inside, going
into a different way of life, adifferent space.
And ultimately, of course, it'sabout the ultimate threshold,
(21:59):
which is death and the hope thatthere is death.
another life, which is the mainChristian belief.
So it's a hugely symbolic thing.
And there are holy doors at thefour basilicas here that you can
go and visit.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
Do you know
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
all four
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
of
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
them?
Yes.
Okay.
The names of them, you mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's St.
Peter's, there's St.
Paul outside the walls where St.
Paul is buried, St.
Mary Major, and St.
John Lateran.
Those are called the fourbasilicas of Rome.
Okay.
So those are the four mainplaces for pilgrimage for this
year, and you can walk throughthis special set of doors there.
(22:44):
But you don't have to come toRome to do a pilgrimage.
You can still do a pilgrimageduring a whole even if you don't
come to Rome.
You can go to your owncathedral, you can go to a
shrine, you can go to a lot ofplaces.
And they all have the doors?
They do not all have the doors.
Okay.
So the doors have to bespecified by the pope.
So, for example, the pope in2015 had a special jubilee year
(23:08):
for mercy.
And that year we went to theCentral African Republic, which
is a country which at the timehad literally no government.
It was in war.
There was no real authoritythere.
And the Pope decided that wasgoing to be the place he wanted
to go.
And he, in the capital there,Bangui, he instituted holy
(23:34):
doors.
And so he can decide indifferent places where he wants
to put the holy doors.
doors but the point is notreally about the doors it's it's
a wonderful symbolic gesture forpeople who can make the
pilgrimage to Rome but itdoesn't need to be about that
it's about your interiordisposition to make a pilgrimage
(23:56):
to deepen your journey to dosomething which will show that
you are dedicated to yourspiritual life.
And there are a couple of thingsthat go along with the
pilgrimage, which is confession.
I was just going to ask, I thinkyou have a week after you walk
through.
Yeah, it's Catholic.
You can be kind of, you know,you can extend it.
(24:20):
You should do it within acertain time frame.
I think even 20 days, they say.
Oh, really?
It's kind
SPEAKER_01 (24:25):
of
SPEAKER_00 (24:25):
like taking a communion.
30 minutes, hour before you eat.
Not to eat, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kind of like a little bit soft.
Well, exactly.
I mean, look, these are the kindof norms and then you do your
best to work within them.
But obviously the point is to,it's for your soul.
(24:46):
right right so it's apurification of your soul and
therefore confession isnecessary communion is necessary
and praying for the intentionsof the holy father so whether
you're not you actually walkthrough the doors if you do
those three things and you havethe intention of
SPEAKER_01 (25:03):
name them again the three things
SPEAKER_00 (25:04):
so confession Holy Communion and praying for the
intentions of the Holy Father.
And those are what you need todo to participate in this
pilgrimage.
That's really important, Ithink, that you gave those three
intentions.
Yeah.
Because I think it helps peopleprocess it better.
Yeah.
(25:24):
And I think, again, it'ssomething, it's year-long, so
you can kind of decide inparishes if people are Catholic
and go to a parish, they willhave already something set up in
terms of either a pilgrimageabroad here to Rome or something
maybe within your parish, or youcan do it in your own home.
You don't actually have to move.
If people are housebound orsomething, it's about your
(25:45):
intention to participate inthis.
So then Francis, getting back tothe practical guy, says, well,
you can also do some acts ofcharity and mercy.
So you can go and visit thesick.
You can go and visit prisoners.
You can donate money.
You can abstain from futiledistractions.
(26:08):
Like social media.
Like social media.
You don't have to do it thewhole time, but maybe one day a
week, you know?
So you're offering up somethingbecause, of course...
It's a way of fasting.
Sacrifice has to be involved insome way.
Otherwise, there's not a wholepoint.
If you think about purifyingyour body, like how often do we
do all those kind of things topurify our bodies?
(26:29):
Well, there's some sacrificeinvolved in that, right?
Sure.
And it's...
It's the same kind of idea thatyou want to purify your soul
because, of course, you're goingto eventually walk through the
ultimate threshold, the ultimatedoor, which is your death.
SPEAKER_01 (26:45):
That
SPEAKER_00 (26:45):
was amazing.
Thank you.
Delia,
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
what are some pressing
SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
issues
SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
do you think that's facing the Catholic Church?
SPEAKER_00 (26:51):
The idea of holiness, and it sounds kind of
strange to say that because it'snot about all of the practical
issues that we often talk about,like the bureaucracy or sex
abuse, which continues,unfortunately, to pop up several
cases here and there and need tobe quickly and efficiently dealt
(27:16):
with.
And still, sometimes thatdoesn't happen.
There are lots of practicalthings about about the Catholic
Church that as an institutionwill always be there and will
need to be, you know, sorted outas it were.
I mean, there are people aboutquestions of women being in
(27:37):
positions of authority, thingslike that that are what I would
call practical issues.
But actually, I think the largerpoint is the question of
spirituality and holiness andallowing people a space and a
ritual and some kind of reasonfor their hope and to bring them
(27:59):
into that world, as it were.
I feel like that's what isreally needed.
And the Catholic Church wouldcall that evangelization, so
letting people know What is itthat Catholics do?
What is it all about?
Why do we do it?
And so on.
And I think that's really themost important thing.
(28:21):
And then I think the other kindof bureaucratic things or
organizational things are kindof common to a lot of
organizations and, yes, areimportant.
But, again, it's more aboutyour...
offering, which the CatholicChurch has a lot to offer in
(28:45):
terms of your prayer life andquestions about God and things
like that.
Now I'm going to ask you just acouple of like fun questions.
How do you split your time?
Those were fun questions too, bythe way.
SPEAKER_01 (28:59):
How do you split your time?
Do you live mostly in Rome?
Do you ever go back?
I mean, I
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
know you go back.
I was just back in Los Angeles.
Can you believe it?
Horrible.
My brother lives in Brentwood.
I know.
His house was spared, but wewere just there.
I had to evacuate.
You did.
SPEAKER_01 (29:12):
Yeah, but I was very, very lucky.
My house did not burn down,
SPEAKER_00 (29:16):
but you're mostly here.
Mostly here.
I'm married to an Italian.
I have two children that go toItalian schools.
They're little Romans.
And so, yeah, my life is here.
I mean, we're really fortunate.
We have a house in the country,and so we can go away on the
weekends.
But, you know, the worksituation with the Pope and the
(29:36):
Vatican is kind ofall-consuming, right?
Right.
So really, it's just—and I loveit.
I love it here.
So I don't—I get back toCalifornia, you know, once a
year, maybe Thanksgiving orChristmas.
depending.
But otherwise, yeah, I'm veryItaly based, unless the Pope
travels.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
What's the best part of living in Rome?
SPEAKER_00 (29:58):
You know, the best part is the rhythm of life.
It's the rhythm of life, whichis There's a great Italian
phrase.
It's like, appasso dell'uomo.
It goes along with how we are ashumans, which is we don't need
to be rushing all the time.
(30:20):
It's kind of a joke where if youtell an Italian the appointment
is at 11.
Oh, yeah.
I learned that the hard way.
It's kind of elastic.
But the point is that, and thishappens all the time with my
husband because I'm stillAmerican.
If you tell me 11, I'm there at5 to 11 and I ring at 11.
There's nothing like American
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
customer service.
I will
SPEAKER_00 (30:40):
say that.
Well, that goes along with it.
We're efficient people.
And so the idea of wasting timeor wasting someone else's time,
but Italians don't consider itwasting.
It's not wasted because if on myway here, I run into somebody, I
don't say, oh, sorry, I got togo.
I'm late.
You know, it's like they stop.
You might even have a coffeewith them, you know, because the
(31:01):
other, it's okay.
I mean, so it's living themoment.
I can't adjust to that still.
I know.
I've been here 25 years.
I still kind of, you know.
I have a funny story.
It was a coin and I'm like, I'dlike to try on these boots,
please.
They're like, okay.
I'm like, okay, five minutes.
I was returning emails, calls.
I'm like, It's been 20 minutes.
(31:24):
Can I try these boots on,please?
I'm like, I had to go get themanager, and they're like, okay,
calm down, you crazy American.
I know.
That's what it is.
But I'm like, I'm getting usedto it, you know?
I know.
I have so many funny storiesabout time and Italians.
Is there anything that you missfrom the United States?
I miss that energy, thatpositive energy of people doing
(31:47):
a lot of wonderful things.
Or people being very excitedabout what you're doing and
interested in that.
So, you know, Rome inparticular, because of course
Italy is slightly different fromnorth to south.
I know, it's all differentcountries here.
Milan has a different kind ofwork.
Rome is much easier paced.
(32:09):
It's like the south.
Yeah, so I think on balance Ilove that as much as it tends to
sometimes get a little swampybecause then it's kind of hard
to get your stuff done becauseit can all wait.
I compare Milan to New York andRome to L.A., In a way, if you
(32:30):
can.
Well, I'm a San Francisco girl,so L.A., I don't really know,
but I think the vibe in L.A.
is pretty much let's get itdone.
It's more laid back than NewYork.
It's more laid back, but it'sstill compared to Rome.
100%.
It's still like, yeah.
It's about getting the meetingsdone and what are you doing
(32:51):
next.
The funny thing is, Italiansdon't really ask you, what are
you doing?
What projects are you workingon?
It's just like, how are you?
I know.
What are you doing?
But not your work.
That's not the first thing.
I
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
know, it's
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
weird.
But that's great.
But we could learn from that asAmericans, right?
100%.
That's where
SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
the term La Dolce Vita
SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
or whatever.
Yeah, that's what it is.
La Dolce Parnente or all thosesayings come from.
And it's true.
very important what you'reeating.
Obviously.
Meals have to be decided.
By the way, I do that in LA.
That's why I think I fit in sowell here.
I think about the food I'meating.
I will say, this is so funny,but the best Chinese food I had
(33:33):
was in Rome.
Really?
You have to tell me where.
It's delicious.
It's between Piazza di Spagnaand Piazza del Popolo.
But the food in Italy, I mean,anywhere I travel, I'll say...
They'll be like, did you likeGreece?
I was like, yeah, it wasamazing.
But it's not Italy.
You love Italy.
I love Italy.
Who doesn't?
(33:54):
Yeah.
I love it.
But OK, so who's your favoritesaint and why?
Oh, my goodness.
Let's see.
I kind of have a lot.
I don't want to say a favorite.
Three, top three.
Should I say Catherine of Siena?
She's a patron saint ofjournalists and I think a
wonderful woman.
And Italy, one of the patronsaints of Italy, I think.
(34:14):
Yeah.
I like the strong women saintsbecause I think when people say,
you know, women in the CatholicChurch, we are thinking of kind
of modern times and who'sworking at the Vatican, but
really women in the history ofthe Catholic Church have been
amazing women.
And I've been fortunate also tohave been taught by wonderful
nuns and women.
(34:37):
So I appreciate women saints alot.
I love Padre Pio.
Another Italian saint.
I think he's...
He's somebody also that youlike, and he's a big saint here
in Italy.
I'm going to
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
go visit his shrine
SPEAKER_00 (34:53):
next week.
Yeah, you know, he's just suchan interesting kind of life.
So I would say that.
And then, of course, I'll haveto say, you know, St.
John Paul II.
You've got to give your boyssome props here.
St.
Mother Teresa?
St.
Mother Teresa?
Yeah, she's been a reallyimportant figure, I think, also
(35:17):
because of her...
many, many years of doubt anddarkness that came out when she
was going to be beatified.
It came out that she hadsuffered so many years of real
doubt and real torment.
I didn't know that.
Yes, I know.
People don't realize that.
She was this smiling nun andthis go-getter.
(35:39):
But actually, for severaldecades with her spiritual
director and in her writings, itwas all kept secret until she
was beatified, she sufferedgreat, great doubts.
And I love that because it's sohuman.
It's so human.
(35:59):
And it's also something whichconnects us to people who don't
believe because it's like, well,you probably doubt sometimes
too, whether it's good tobelieve or it's right to believe
or there's something to believe.
So I love that there's thatconnection.
that human, that humanness of,you know, sometimes you say,
(36:19):
hmm.
Yeah.
Thank you, Delia, so
SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
much.
I was, like, so intimidatedinterviewing you.
I was like, God, what am I doingthis lady for?
Oh, thanks
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
for having me.
Because you're such a wealth ofknowledge and you're such a pro.
She's probably thinking, why isthis stooge interviewing me?
No, I love it.
I love what you're doing.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for allowingme to interview you.
Good for you.
I mean, honestly, it's such ablessing to have people like you
that bring this kind of newlight and life to the Catholic
Church.
I think that's wonderful.
You do a great job.
SPEAKER_01 (36:49):
All right.
UNKNOWN (36:50):
you
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