The Power of Gathering | Safety in the Church at the End of the Age - Blood & Oil Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and
disengaged, the Blood and Oilpodcast cuts through the noise
to reveal the raw, unfilteredwork of the Holy Spirit.
Welcome to the Blood and Oilpodcast.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
All right.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to Blood and Oil podcast.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Good to see everyone.
Terrence, my man, what's?

Speaker 4 (00:30):
up what's going on, guys.
You know I already love beinghere, man.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, good to have you East Coast represent.
I like the new background, bro.
It looks like you were, youknow, recording in the studio.

Speaker 4 (00:41):
It's like the best thing that happened to me today
man.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
So, yeah, I'm super excited to be here, yeah it's
good to be here and I want tothank everyone else for
listening to really importantLike you guys.
You guys make the show what itis y'all who are listening and
if you haven't yet, pleasesubscribe so you can get our
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We love to hear from you guys.
And if you all are watching onYouTube, please drop a comment
with anything you feel or areexperiencing from the show.

(01:10):
Also, anything that you mayhave that you want to inquire
about.
You know that we can talk aboutin further episodes that kind
of thing, but any encouragementis great.
We love to hear feedback fromyou all and, like, we crave that
kind of stuff because you knowwe're doing this to interact
with you know, honestly, we'redoing this to honor Jesus first
and foremost.
Um, you know we want to give allthe glory to God, but, uh, we

(01:33):
want to encourage and inspirepeople through this as well and,
um, you know that's that's oneof the things we want to do
today.
So, you guys, commenting andreflecting back to us really
helps us sort of.
You know, it galvanizes theprocess for us and it helps us
kind of, you know, understandwhat we're doing here and how we
can make it better and makeimprovements, and then, you know
, give the people what they needas well when it comes to, you

(01:55):
know, worshiping the Lord, and,you know, in the Christian walk
for sure, and today I think it'sgoing to be a bit of a
something for me, it's a bit ofa continuation from last week in
terms of, you know, talkingabout the importance of
attending church.
We talked about unity in thebody, christ's body, the church
in our last episode, and I thinkyou know the importance of

(02:16):
attending church is what we'regoing to get into today, and I
think that you know there's somenuances there that need to be
sussed out and explored a littlebit, and that's why we're here
so happy to get into it.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah.
So when I was praying abouttoday, one of the things that's
always struck me is the storiesthat come out of the church
across the globe, like I findthe stories of martyrdom and
persecution encouraging thestories of martyrdom and
persecution encouraging, notbecause I'm looking to be

(02:48):
martyred or because I'm lookingto be persecuted, but because
those who stand up under suchthings have just this crazy
level of faith.
And when you read Hebrewschapter 11, it's got these great
demonstrations of faith andmiracles.
And then at the end it makesthis shift and you're like, yay,

(03:08):
dead or raised.
Yay, blind eyes are open.
Yay, moses delivers the Hebrewsfrom Egypt.
Yay, and then they werepersecuted.
Wait, what they were sawn intwo.
Wait, wait, wait what.
They had their stuff taken fromthem.
Wait, wait, a second, what like?

(03:29):
And the entire hebrews chapter11 starts in a conversation in
hebrews chapter 10, a topic inwhich the author says you
received joyfully the seizure ofyour property because you were
being counted with those whowere having their property
seized.
Okay, so the image is this they, their friends who were

(03:53):
believers, were having theirstuff taken because they were
believers.
They themselves were not havingtheir stuff taken, but they
chose to stand with their fellowbrothers who were having their
stuff taken.
But they chose to stand withtheir fellow brothers who were
having their stuff taken and sothey got their stuff taken also.
And he says you did it with joybecause you know that you've

(04:16):
got an everlasting possessionthat can never be taken from you
.
And that's what starts theconversation of faith.
Yeah, and so these stories ofpersecution and such that come
out of the church across theglobe and I mean non-Western
church, like right now weexperience and we enjoy a level

(04:36):
of freedom in the West that theglobal church does not
experience.
And there's two primary thingsthat come out of the persecuted
church or the underground churchis another way to put it that
is regular.
That is striking to me, twothings that they crave and yearn

(04:58):
for, three things in particularthat are remarkable.
One is prayer, but then the twothings that they crave and they
yearn for is the scripture.
They want the bible becausethey can't have the bible freely
and like they will smugglelittle scraps of scripture into
into prison where if you getcaught you go into like solitary

(05:20):
confinement or worse, yep, andthey will memorize those little
strips and passages of scripturebecause once the guards find it
and they take it.
They can't take away whatyou've memorized, right, and so
they.
They yearn for, crave for theBible in some way shape or form.
Okay, the second thing you wantto know what is it they yearn

(05:41):
for, crave for?
the ability to gather freelysure they learn for long for the
ability to come together aschurch and hold a church service
.
Wow, that's what they want.
Wow, more than the, thescripture, and and the ability
to gather.
And the ability to gather iswhat they yearn for, crave for,

(06:05):
they desire, right, wow, and sowe know that persecution is
coming.
Like the idea that things aregood for Christians right now,
that's only really in the West,relatively speaking.
Okay, syria I was reading a uh,an article earlier where they

(06:25):
are absolutely concerned withwhether or not there's going to
be genocide against christiansin syria.
Well, okay, yeah, thepersecution is crazy.
Um 200 nigerian christians orsomething like that.
Uh, somewhere in africa like aweek we could go two weeks ago
were killed like a week, weekago, two weeks ago, were killed

(06:50):
and nobody in the west istalking about it, right so that
we live in a western bubble ofcomfort.
We live in a western bubble ofprotected what, what we would
consider protected speech.
We, this thing, this, thisfoundational, uh, value that,
that america and, because ofamerica, other western countries
have adopted freedom ofexpression, freedom of speech,

(07:15):
the ability to as long as I'mnot absolutely harming somebody,
that that I'm free to to speakand and and feel and share
whatever it is that I want, like, even if it's the most vile
thing, I get to think that andspeak that freely, without

(07:37):
threat of jail or persecution.
That's actually changing andthat's on purpose.
And the reason why it'schanging and on purpose is for
the last 15 or 20 years, the,the political powers that be in
the spiritual powers behind them, have been doing what they can
to make speech violence rightand so you.

(07:59):
you've got this shift in theatmosphere that what I say is
now threatening to you.
My words constitute violenceagainst you, Because if we can
get the masses to believe thatand turn in that direction now,
I can now be arrested for myspeech because my speech harms

(08:25):
somebody.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Preaching the gospel prayer.
That's right.
Well, that's the future of it,100%.

Speaker 3 (08:31):
And, in particular, here's what it's centered around
.
Yeah, sexuality.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Right now?
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
LGBTQ ideology Right.
There was a gentleman inBritain like an 80-year-old
preacher or something this wastwo years ago-ish who got
arrested because he shared whatthe scripture taught about
marriage between a man and awoman, and somebody there heard

(08:58):
him said that is offensive to meand is not safe language for me
.
See, there's that safe danger,violence, idea, yeah, and so
they arrested him.
Now he got out.
You know the, the present waythat the courts are set up and
stuff like that, like you're notgoing to be able to like until

(09:19):
until some some more crazyshifts and changes happen, which
, by the way, I think that the,the, the present safety language
that we have concerning our hottopic, political stuff is is
pointing in that same directionfrom the other side yeah so it
was pushed this way from thisside.
Now it's being pushed this wayfrom this side and the end goal

(09:40):
is the same right the end goalis the security state, and that
that's what's on the horizon,right, because that's what
revelation says has to happen.
This system in which everythingis forced into worshiping this
entity, this being, this person,the antichrist, the man of sin,
yeah, um, or you can't sell ortrade, and and if you don't take

(10:04):
the mark, then you're beheaded.
All of that presumes aone-world system that is
governed and controlledauthoritatively.
So it is 100% despotic, but itis systemic and it's global, and
so that pushes that direction.
So, at any rate, the point thatwe started with was the

(10:27):
persecuted church longs forgathering.
Yeah, they want to meet, wantto be able to meet together and
not be under the threat of beingtaken to jail or dying or
persecution or whatever, ordying or persecution or whatever

(10:48):
.
And in the West right now,we've got so many Christians
that, for the sake ofindividualism, they're like it's
just me and Jesus and theydefault to passages of scripture
that say things like whenevertwo or three are gathered, he is
there in their midst, whenthat's not what that's about
yeah do you really think thatjesus is saying because whenever
two or three are gathered in myname, I am there in my midst?

(11:10):
that is an excuse to forsake theassembling of yourselves,
because that's that's whatyou're inferring, right, when
you use that as a reason to notgather?
Yeah, right you use that as areason to not be a part of a
local, committed fellowship,right, the?
And, by the way, that thatpassage, whenever two or three

(11:31):
are gathered in my name.
Here's the qualifier in my nameyou know what that means that
means that you're doing what hewants you to do, not what you
want to do, right, yeah, andyou're using that scripture as a
passage to do not what you wantto do, right.
Yeah, and you're using thatscripture as a passage to do
what you want to do, not what hewants you to do.
Right, because in my namedoesn't mean just because Zane

(11:56):
and Jesse and Terrence have saidthe name of Jesus today, that
he's now in our midst.
Right Doesn't like when you youdo that you've made the name of
jesus a witchcraft trinket,sure?
yep invoked him 100 like likehe's somehow obligated to be
present because I said thephonetic sound jesus, or.

(12:19):
Or let's get real spiritualzane ready.
Yeshua the sacred name, yeah,or.
Or how about this one the name?

Speaker 4 (12:32):
yah, or which is popular now right, the.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
The sacred name namers yahuwah name.
Call him yahuwah right, becausethat's who he really is.
Look, the substance is.
Substance is the point.
Right, amen.
If you don't have the substance, it doesn't matter what name
you use.
Amen.
And your relationship to thesubstance of the one who has the

(12:55):
name is the point, and that'swhy Acts 19, when the seven sons
of Sceva tried to name the nameof Jesus, when the seven sons
of Sceva tried to name the nameof Jesus, those spirits they
knew.
You don't have relationship tothe substance that you are
referring to.
Right, yeah, right it as anexcuse to not gather, when the

(13:24):
scriptures actually say, as wesee his coming approaching, we
are supposed to gather more.
That's right.
Right.
Do not forsake the assemblingof yourselves, but even more, as
the day approaches, listen tohis, his command.
At that point, provoke oneanother to love and good deeds.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Your ability to love and do the right things directly
connected to you having churchmore and more as the day of
Jesus gets closer and closer.

Speaker 4 (13:57):
Right, yeah, right, that's good.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
So to use those passages to try to say oh, I
don't have to gather, I don'thave to be apart, or here's
another one Anyone who's aChristian is the church.
We're all living stones, right?
It's not about a building.
And the truth is, you're right,it's not about a building, but

(14:22):
those living stones have to betogether.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
About a building, but those living stones have to be
together, yeah, and right nowthat happens, ready in a
building.
Thank god too, for theelement's sake further crazy.

Speaker 3 (14:36):
The seven churches of asia minor book of revelation,
chapter two and chapter three.
Those are brick and mortarlocations, yep, okay.
And each one of them hasaccolades and rebukes from the
Lord, which means he isconsidering that local church

(14:58):
covenanted fellowshipdifferently than the other local
church covenanted fellowshipand their belonging to one or
another qualifies them for thepromises or the rebukes in which
he gives that church.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:18):
So the church of the open door, the like.
there's two that don't getrebukes, one under persecution
in Philadelphia, philadelphia, Ithink it's Philadelphia the
church is it Philadelphia yeahwhere he says you have a little
power and I've given you an opendoor that no one can shut and
no one can open.
It's the only one that getsthat accolade so ready.

(15:42):
Only the people at that churchreceive that.
So the one at Thyatira or theone at Pergamum or the one at
Ephesus does not have thatblessing that belonged to that
church and that church does nothave the rebuke that belonged to

(16:03):
that one.
Right Now there are ways ofinterpreting that passages.
These are kinds and types ofchurches, sure, whatever.
But immediate context, thoseare seven churches that have
brick and mortar locations inasia minor, in which jesus
addresses them by blessing andrebuke, by promise and by

(16:23):
correction that belong to thatlocal church.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Right.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
So, yes, the Bible does teach local expression, and
rooted and grounded.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Amen, yeah, yeah, I mean it's like when I think
about the church gathering, I'mreally inspired by some of the
accounts that come out of likeAfrica and those places where
they're actually know in thespirit, where you know the enemy
is actually held at bay rightwhen there can't be sort of this

(17:12):
interaction with the demonicbecause of the prayer, the power
of the prayer.
So it's like when the folks gettogether, when the Christians
get together, it's not just oneChristian praying yeah, there's
something done in the spiritwhen one Christian prays, but
when they get together, that'sright.

Speaker 4 (17:24):
Yeah, there's something done in the spirit
when one Christian prays, butwhen they get together, that's
right, yes, well said that'swhen the real power comes.

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Exactly Did you see the clip I sent you with the
Satanist yeah, who was like thewitchcraft, the witch's coven of
that local area, couldn't getinto.
Whatever it is that they wantedto do against that church.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Right.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
But it wasn't because of that church.
It was because of the churchnear them that was praying for
them.
That was praying for themExactly.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, yeah.
And then the accounts of folkswho, like him, who were in the
occult and you know, rememberedand were regaling, you know, in
their testimony of how they cameto Jesus.
they were talking about the timebefore when they were still in
the occult, talking about howthey couldn't enter into certain
cities when crusades were goingdown there when there were
certain men of God who werepraying on a stage to the entire

(18:14):
city and people were gettingsaved and they were worshiping.
They literally couldn't be nearthe city Correct?
Wow?
Because it was too spirituallypowerful.
The Holy Spirit would keep themat bay.
There was a sort of a line ofangels protecting that city you
know that's right.
And they were told don't gonear it or you'll be destroyed.
Yeah, that's the power ofprayer right there and that's

(18:35):
the power of gathering.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
That's interesting too that you mentioned the
angelic, because for the sevenchurches of Asia Minor minor,
they each have an angel overthem, right, and so the church
that's over philadelphia, or thethe angel that's over the
church of philadelphia is notthe angel that's over the church
of diatira, right, and sobelonging to a particular local

(18:58):
expression continues there.
There are.
There are types and uh,structures that are over you,
that exist in one, that do notexist in another one, and change
from one to the other amen nowild.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
There was a vision someone hada vision yesterday in church um
at north bay and lighthouse herein santa rosa of, uh, four
angels at the corners of thebuilding that were, you know,
during worship that wereprotecting the place and kind of
looking over the place justtowering over yeah holding space
over the place.
So, just, they were granted avision, while they were praying,
of these amazing beings justwatching over the place.

(19:36):
But something tells me thatthose, those, they don't switch
out all the time, like no they.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Those are sentinels over that congregation so the
the math on angelic assignmentis mission right the the angelic
is sent to accomplish themission of god.
When, when cornelius is giventhe the angelic revelation, it's
because god intends to includethe Gentiles, and so God sends

(20:05):
the angel to tell Cornelius goand send for Peter and Joppa.
Peter comes and preaches thegospel.
Angelic assignment is alwaysaccording to mission, and
mission is how the trees and thelampstands function in
Zechariah 3 and 4 and in thebook of Revelation, and those
are always local.

(20:27):
Yes, always.
The trees in the lamp stand inZechariah 3 were there to ready
build the church.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (20:40):
That local expression and in particular in that
context, it was the secondtemple.
They had just come out ofcaptivity in Babylon and Persia.
God had sent them back toJerusalem to build the walls of
Jerusalem and to, in particular,rebuild the temple.
And God is highly concernedabout dirt Anyone listening?
He cares about the dirt, thepromised land itself.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, absolutely, he cares about the dirt, the
promised land itself?

Speaker 3 (21:05):
Yeah, absolutely, and he talks about the land itself
cries out because of the sins ofthe people and the wells that
the fathers have dug weregeographically local wells that
Abraham had dug, that Isaac thengoes and re-digs, had dug.

(21:27):
That Isaac then goes andre-digs and there's two with
contention and the third one hegets and it's no longer
contention and there's a wholebunch of symbology that's
paralleled there in that passage.
But angelic ministry inparticular comes according to
assignment and assignmentbelongs to the olive trees and
the olive trees are the leadersof the local church.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
In Zechariah 3 and 4, it was Joshua and Zerubbabel,
and in the book of Revelation,the lampstands are clearly the
churches.
That's what Jesus calls them,right.
And so every lampstand has ason of fresh oil, assuming it's
an authorized church by God, bywhich the anointing gets into

(22:12):
the people.
And so if you are divorcingyourself from that local
expression, you are robbingyourself of the ability to
receive the oil, the spirit thatyou're supposed to have.
And you're now in danger ofbeing one of the ability to
receive the oil, the spirit thatyou're supposed to have, sure,
and you're now in danger ofbeing one of the five foolish
virgins in Matthew 25.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
Yeah, yeah, wow.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Do not have enough oil.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
Right, right.
I want to touch on that reallyquick.

Speaker 4 (22:37):
What you just said is pretty much where I was
tracking, so I want to go backjust a little bit.
I wonder like, notwithstandingthe actual legitimate reasons
people miss church becausesometimes people are sick
there's various things going onthat legitimize their need to
stay home.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
Legit reasons are not in view, of course.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
Indeed, but I wonder how close faith is tied into
church attendance.
He was remarking on the body ofbelievers, praying and so forth
and therefore seeing resultsoccur, and of course you have
this in the scriptures, you havethis throughout church history,
even up to our time.
I wonder if there's a tie, or Ineed to go to church because

(23:34):
God wants me to do my partalongside the other body.
I wonder where we would be, asfar as God's will is concerned,
in the earth if we would bedoing more.
And I wonder if there's aconnection there.
People perhaps, I think, don'tgo to church because they don't
see themselves as part of abigger plan.
They think if I miss churchit's no big deal, I'm not really

(23:54):
that important anyhow.
But if they were to seethemselves again to go back to
what Zane said as a piece of apuzzle, of a bigger picture that
God specifically uses and, dareI say, need not to say that God
needs anything.
But God again makes ordains,both the end and the means and
you're a mean, a means If wewould see ourselves in light of

(24:14):
that reality, I wonder if wewould have better, more.
You know church and not bespotty, be more excited to go to
church, be more on missions, etcetera, et cetera.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, agreed, yeah, I hear that.
Yeah, because I was thinking,when Jesse was talking too, that
the body of believers haveindividually, they have
authority over the demonic.
They have authority in thekingdom, and when they gather,
that authority just multiplies.
Yes, and now they're takingterritory for the demonic.
They have authority in thekingdom and when they gather,

(24:47):
that authority just multiplies.
And now they're takingterritory for the kingdom, right
, and the church itself, wherewe know we live in a fallen
kingdom.
The satanic realm, essentially,is the world, but we're taking
ground for the kingdom when weshow up for church, because that
space is now taken byChristians, right.
So this mission of gathering totake ground for the kingdom, I

(25:09):
think, is what you're getting attoo.
It's sort of a higher calling,more so than I don't feel like
going today.
It's okay if I don't show up,no one really noticed.
Well, it's important that youdo, because you're a part of
that mission that we were justdiscussing.

Speaker 4 (25:22):
Absolutely.
There's a higher calling.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, there of that mission that we just we were
just discussing, absolutely,absolutely yeah, there's a
higher patriotism too, showingup, which is that you're
assembling in order to takeground for the kingdom and hold
that.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
and I think there's parallels in the scripture too.
I think of, like, uh, the timeof nehemiah, when the tower,
when the wall, was being built,right, and if those men, it says
in the scriptures, who didn'tcome, it would affect the other
people building the tower, sothey had to.
Who didn't come, it wouldaffect the other people building
the tower.
So they had to understand thattheir seemingly small part to
play was indeed part of a largerreality, right, and if they
negated their responsibility toshow up and build a wall, weapon

(25:56):
in hand, they would have lostand the wall would have not been
built.
And so it's the same thing, Ithink, with the church.
Like, christians need to seethemselves and I suppose,
suppose, in some sense this isthe task of the leaders of the
church to kind of remind people,to build them up and say, hey,
yes, individually, I suppose, insome regards you're small, but
God didn't call you to just beselfish, just assuming this sort

(26:19):
of like seemingly humbleposition whereby you see
yourself small and do nothing.
No, that's not humility, that'sactually pride, because God has
said you are a small part of abigger whole, namely the church,
and so therefore, show up forthe sake of God's glory and
God's work in the world.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
You see, Amen, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
You're belittling the missionin a lot of ways when you're
just believing that it's.
You know, you're just a singleindividual, a drop in the bucket
, so to speak, right right, withno purpose.
The bucket itself needs you,you know.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yes, yes, those members that are more public
don't need accolades, but thosemembers that are I think the
King James says unseemingly orthose that are more private, or
those who are not seen as much,deserve double honor.

(27:19):
So that, so that those who areless seemingly feel appreciated,
but those who are more public,they don't need it, because the
publicity itself is its own.
And and he's got this, he, he,he begins to say and he argues
from it every part is necessary,right, yes, right, every part

(27:42):
is necessary.
Where would the toe be withoutthe eye?
Where would the toe be withoutthe eye?
Where would the nose be withoutthe hand?
Where would then the leg be,excuse me, without the arm?
You know those, those things,and so the necessity of a body,
and I think you know, we foundthis out there.
There are things that thatscience used to think were not
necessary for the human body.
And then we find out, actuallyit does something, right, you?

Speaker 1 (28:04):
know it was the gallbladder or the appendix.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah, you know these weird things that we think are
appendages right, and then weend up finding out later no,
actually, every single part isneeded, right, and and to your
point, terence, absolutely,faith is necessary, and it's the
, it's the I am.
And for us, as PentecostalsCharismatics, we understand

(28:29):
we've got like, if I'm makingmyself available, two things
really matter Am I willing?
Am I available?
If I'm willing, okay, god,whatever you want to do, and I'm
available, I put my own purposeand mission aside right now and
say yes to yours.
God will use anybody Right.
One of the biggest argumentsthat the cessationists use

(28:49):
against the, the charismaticPentecostals, or those of us who
believe in the gifts of thespirit, is a is a.
It is a straw man argument,it's not even, it is ad hominem.
Okay, it's, or against the man.
It's not the real thing.
They say things like you know,if you're, if you're, if you
really operate in the gift ofhealing, go and clear out that

(29:11):
hospital.
Okay, read the text.
Those gifts only operateaccording to the will of god,
right, it's always been the case.
It's never been different.
To argue that the apostles hadsome freedom with the gifts,
that was according to their ownwill, is not true.
They always operated accordingto the will of God.

(29:32):
And so, if we are to Terrence'spoint, coming to church willing
and available and expecting Godto do something, he can give a
word of knowledge.
He can give a word of prophecy,something he can give a word of
knowledge, he can give a wordof prophecy, he can.
Somebody can pray and gethealed, somebody.
You know that can happen at anyservice and the only thing that
matters is a is God doing it?

(29:53):
And B are you willing andavailable?
And then posture yourself inthat way?
Then you realize howindispensable the local body is
and and to that point, for thosewho don't want to gather
locally, you, how are you goingto have elders anoint you with
oil to pray for the sick, forhealing, like James?

(30:14):
says if you don't have a localstructure.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, that cannot happen, apart from a brick and
mortar local thing in whichthere are elders Right, which
you know.
Good argument to be made thatelders are also pastors.
Yeah, the idea of a pastor,which is a gift to the body,
presumes a flock.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Yeah, right, that is gathering together, not two or
three, in the name of jesus,there, he is all that, all
that's there absolutely, yeah,yeah, and they, I I think I
think there are a lot of peoplethat would argue against
gathering because, again, likeyou said, where two or three are

(30:59):
gathered and I think it's sortof a cop-out in a lot of ways
because it can come from a lotof different places.
And I think the last fewepisodes we've done and say
church hurt and then unity inthe body, of course we spoke on
these kinds of things churchhurt and then unity in the body.
Of course we spoke on thesekinds of things like if you've
gotten hurt or have experienceddrama or have been harmed in
some way by someone in thechurch, you're gonna be
reluctant to come.

(31:19):
But like terence wasreferencing it's like it's, you
know, there's a higher callinghere.
You kind of put that stuff asideand I think our our episode on
the unity really helped, youknow, give some practical tips
on how to do so, one of whichobviously is forgiveness.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Huge.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Huge.
Yeah, absolutely Let it go.
Let God deal with it.
You know pray about it always.
But I think you know we I was Iwas having this discussion with
a pastor recently about numbersright and how, when certain
transitions occur in a church,sometimes the numbers drop right
.
Sometimes the numbers go up,and I think you know what we're

(31:58):
really talking about in a lot ofways is numbers.
You know, because that's theonly thing we would be able to
base this conversation on is howmany people are actually
attending or how little thereare actually showing up.
But when it comes to numbers,it's like I'm of the mind where,
if the numbers drop, then youhave people who are perhaps more
faithful, who are still showingup, and those who were lacking
in that faith or those who werelacking in the ability to show

(32:21):
up for the will of God, to dothe will of God and be open to
that, they stopped coming andperhaps that's I don't know was
that taking away from the bodyin some way.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
Let's talk about that a little bit.
So I think there's a couple ofpassages that we understand in
the scripture that that's kindof the nature of what's
happening with the kingdom ofGod in total and then in
microcosm, in the local church.
Things like Jesus says thekingdom of God is like a dragnet
, things like jesus says thekingdom of god is like a dragnet

(32:55):
, and this idea of a huge likeif you've ever seen a trawler, a
fishing trawler, it's got thishuge net and it just gathers all
kinds of fish and then theypull it up and they open it up
right.
You've seen, like the, the, thevideos where the, the fishermen
, open up the net and just gospilling all over the deck of
the boat okay, that dragnet andhe says it gets all kinds of

(33:16):
fish, both good and bad.
Right yeah, right okay there yougo there, there's this idea
that the kingdom of god, in its,in its preaching, in, in, in
its drawing, draws both good andbad.
Jesus says go into the highwaysand byways and then bring into
my house that my house may befilled, and that house again is.

(33:38):
Is is structured, locallanguage, okay, sure.
And what happens?
Somebody comes in, they're notdressed right, and he goes,
you're getting cast out becauseyou didn't come to the presence
of the king dressed right, youdon't.
You don't have the weddingclothes on.
I think is what it is you're notdressed properly, things like
the parable of the seed andsoils where you've got seed

(34:03):
that's scattered, snatched awayby the birds is is snatched away
by the demonic, never right,goes into the ground, never
takes root, never producesanything.
And then there are two soilsthat are depicted as the cares
of the world and persecutionthat are both having to do with
internal things.
Inside of me, persecution comesand I'm not strong enough to

(34:24):
stand against.
It is an internal thing againstme.
It's not about the externalpersecution, it's whether I can
stand or not, is about what'shappening on the inside, my
personal, my person.
And the other one is the caresof this world, which again is
the internal person, whether ornot I'm concerned with money, or
I'm concerned with, you know,family, or I'm concerned with

(34:45):
whatever.
The, the host of reasons, thehost of host of idols, belong to
pit to people, right, what theycare about.
And he says this it's veryinteresting to me that the seed
goes into the soil and theyreceive the word of God with joy
which seems to be born again.
Language, right, okay, whichyou know, the Calvinists who are

(35:09):
listening, or whatever.
May you know that that'sirrelevant to the conversation,
but what it seems like they'vehad some sort of an encounter
with God, but then it's chokedout and they don't produce
anything Right.
And then there's good soil thatproduces 30, 60, and 100-fold

(35:30):
Okay.
And the problem is what'shappening in the soils?

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Right, and so the these, these various
descriptions of the kingdom ofGod and things that happen when
the gospel is preached and etcetera, is very clear that that
there tends to be a drawing ofof those who are legitimately
saved and those who may not belegitimately saved at all and
and we see whether or notthey're legitimately saved by

(36:00):
what they produce the fruits,yeah, that's right.
Right, you know, it's fruit.
The other, the other parable,is the.
The kingdom of god is a fieldin which the, the son of man,
goes and sows the word and sonsof the kingdom sprout up, but he
says overnight, after he sowedthe word, an enemy comes and
sows bad seeds which are sons ofthe evil, one.

(36:24):
Right now, he does say that thefield is the world.
So this, this isn't, in total,the church.
Like some of the other parables, this is this.
This is the greater vision ofwhat's happening in the earth,
where both the sons of therighteous and the sons of the
wicked grow up together.
But wheat and tares looks verysimilar, sure, yep, and you

(36:49):
don't necessarily see thedifference until they're mature,
yeah, yeah, then the th, untilthey're mature, yeah, yeah, then
the threshing floor has tohappen.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Then the threshing floor has to happen Right, and
that's kind of the the shakeupin the church where we see the
true colors of those where, youknow I wouldn't say that you
know it's the folks that juststopped showing up, though it's
it's like for whatever reason,they just didn't stop showing up
.
But I think there's pastors cankind of be hard on themselves

(37:20):
sometimes, I'm sure when numbersdrop Right, is it me Right, and
so Yup.
So I think that, like you know,it's good to remember for those
listening who are concernedwith such things numbers at
church that yeah, this is athreshing, these things have to
happen sometimes.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
And promise to happen too.
I think of 1 John when he saysthey departed from us because
they're not all of us, for ifthey had been with us or been a
part of us, they would havestayed, but they went out to
display that they were not allof us, for if they had been with
us or been a part of us, theywould have stayed, but they went
out to display that they werenot all of us.
And so there's this reality toJesse's point like.
Additionally, there is theinstance where the we and Tia

(38:04):
stay together until the end andthen God's angels makes the
difference here.
He separates at that point.
But then, in real time too,there's the they're going out of
us to display that they're notall of us.
So it's both, and you know.
And so, as a pastor, jess, youknow this is just part of the
call, and it's not you, it's notyou who brought them there in
the first place, it's not youwho's going to keep them.

(38:26):
And I think this is somethingpastors need to remind
themselves, because we're peopleand when we're, you know, when
we lose friends and orcongregation members, or
whatever the case may be, wetend to look inside and say, as
you said.
Is it myself?
Was it me?
Should I do something better?
But no, if you're faithful tothe word, then remember that
this happened to Jesus too.

(38:46):
He had a whole bunch ofdisciples.
They all left him.
He looks to the 12, he turnsaround to them and he says are
you going to leave too?
And they say you know?
Peter says those magnificentwords where are we going to go?
Lord, you alone have the wordsof truth that leads to eternal
life.
So the 12 remain, but themultitude of disciples left.
And that's just part of thecall.
So we have to remember that aswell.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
Yeah, I think to your point in that passage in
particular also is that it hadto do with doctrine and teaching
.
He said you know, this teachingis too hard.
And to the other citation thatyou made, they went out from us
to prove that they were not ofus.
Like, the greater historicalunderstanding of that is, it was
the Judaizers.
It was those who wanted tosubject Christians to the law.

(39:28):
They had to get cut.
They had to do this, they hadit.
And so the greater picture isPaul is going around planting
churches and then these peoplewho were originally Christians
or who were identifiedoriginally as Christians from
Jerusalem went out fromJerusalem and began to follow
him around other places tryingto tell people you need to get
circumcised, you need to observethe law, you need to do this,

(39:51):
what we mentioned earlier youneed to call Jesus Yeshua
instead of Jesus or you know?
Just stupid stuff.
And the point is is that it wasover doctrine.
People were believing the wrongthings, and in particular, 1

(40:11):
Timothy, chapter 4, I have thisin my notes here and this is
what's presently happening.
The Spirit explicitly says inlater times that's now some will
fall away from the faith.
Doing what?
Paying attention to deceitfulspirits and teachings of demons?

(40:34):
Yes, by means of the hypocrisyof liars seared in their own
conscience, as with a brandingiron men who forbid marriage,
advocate abstaining from foodswhich god has created to be
joyfully shared by those whobelieve and rejoice in the truth
.
Okay, so what's the point?

(40:58):
Part of the dynamic of the endtimes and we've been talking
about this a lot, and as weshould, I mean just before
recording we're talking aboutthe crazy amount of floods that
hit the US in particular in thelast like five days is insane,
wow.
And they're like oh, climatechange?
Nope, oh, somebody's seedingthe weather.

(41:19):
No, it is.
The bible says that thegroanings and birth pain of this
creation, the birth pangs, aregoing to increase as his coming
gets nearer.
Right, amen.
Expect to see to ourconversations in in the past.
Systemic conflict Isn't justconflict between people, right,

(41:43):
it is a rise of the earth going.
I don't like this.
Yep the groanings is what whatPaul says in Romans, chapter
eight?
And so what's the nature ofwhat's happening?
Is that in, in these end times,there are going to be a rise of
demonic teachings that aremeant to draw people away?

(42:06):
Right, yep, and you will bedrawn away if that's what's
inside of you.
Right, yep, if you are notfully committed to jesus, no
matter what I've said, it thisway from the pulpit.
Whatever your price is, thedevil or the flesh will figure
out what it is and it will bepresented to you.
Wow, and if you haven'tdetermined beforehand, I've been

(42:29):
bought and paid for with theblood of jesus.
You will be tempted and youwill pay that price.
Though they will, they willpresent that price to you and
you will fall away yeah, right,wow, that's terrifying that's
right.
And you know the matthew 25,this deceiving lying signs and
wonders that, if possible, willlead astray, ready Even the

(42:53):
elect, yeah Right.
Every single person who namesthe name Christian is going to
be presented with not just aseries of teachings, but a
demonstration to back theteachings lying signs and
wonders.
That's right.
And if you do not have arelationship with the one true

(43:13):
living god, not the creator,jesus right not.
Not the great spirit in the sky, jesus not the.
That's what it meansrelationship to the person who
has the name right yeah he'sthis, only one name given
amongst men under heaven, bywhich men must be saved the name
of Jesus.

(43:34):
That's it.
He is the gate, he is thedoorway, he is the way, the
truth and the life you don'tcome to.
The one named Jesus and not afake Jesus, because there are
fake Jesuses Got that in mynotes too Spirits who present
themselves as Christ that arenot Christ.
Had the conversation about the,the podcast where the dude was

(43:55):
had died and was going throughthe second heavens, and he went
into the third heaven in thethrone room and he saw in the
second heavens, false jesus isrunning around, wow, wow, right.
And he said if he had, if Iremember correctly, if he hadn't
made it into the third heaven,he would have fallen for these,
these lies second heavens beinga demonic realm too.

(44:15):
Right, right, yeah, exactlysecond heavens, being the spirit
realm that we don't see exactlyyeah, yeah, versus the third
heaven, where you know where godexists in his throne room, the
right.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
You know throne room place second heaven contains
good light and dark, though tooright.
It does just their virtualrealm overlay, correct?

Speaker 3 (44:31):
yeah, got it, it's everything, everything that we
don't see, yeah, second heavensyeah, yeah um.
So, at any rate, what's what'shappening?
That this deception will comeby the means of lying signs and
wonders and the doctrines ofdemons.
And it's exactly meant it.
It will be laid hold of, secondthessalonians, by those who

(44:53):
ready receive not the truth usedto receive a love of the truth
come on yeah yeah, you are beingpulled away because you don't
love truth yeah, yeah you areleaving what the truth has
picked because you don't lovetruth, right, yeah?

(45:13):
And and because it's deceitfuland it's lying.
You may be convinced it's Jesus, yep, but yeah, second
Corinthians 11 says that thereis false Jesuses.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yep, yep.
So when it comes to deceptionsthat Christians might fall prey
to, let's get into that a littlebit.
False Jesus, obviously top ofthe totem pole.
That's the scary one, you know.
There was one I ran across onInstagram, I think, a few days
ago, of a woman who was askingAI about something.
Wow, about, uh, the lord comingwhen he came and talking about

(45:58):
how the capacity that everyhuman has to reach this sort of,
in this stage of enlightenment,and all he was doing was
reminding us of our own capacityto do so.
Wow that he left us with thoseteachings so that we could, we
could also achieve this christedstate, christ consciousness,
obviously right yeah, but the aiwas was reflecting this.
This was recent, you know what Imean.
So this is a very, still veryalive and real.
Yeah, 100 um, and you know it'sit's.

(46:19):
It's a tough one because it'sjust a degree off right, and
it's so tempting too because itputs it it.
It speaks to what it does ithonestly.
What it does is it speaks tothe spiritual royalty that is
truly amidst us.
It was truly within us, we, thespiritual royalty that is truly
amidst us.
It was truly within us.
We are spiritual royalty.
However, we are sinners in thesoul, and the soul will lead us
astray.
The heart will lead us astray.

(46:39):
And you're negating that entirefact when you state that you're
becoming wasted on your way toascension and you're doing all
these things to manifest yourlife.
You're negating the fact thatyour heart is leading you astray
.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
Yeah, deceitfully wicked.
Above all things, yeah, yeah,you're forgetting about the soul
.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
The soul's in the way , yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Fixed Owned deception yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Right.
So Christ rejuvenates andresurrects our spirit as well
and is perfecting andsanctifying our soul in the
process.
But the spirit is trulyspiritual royalty.
There's a piece of us thatawakens into that.
Yes, so that paradigm of thisChrist consciousness, christ

(47:20):
teaching us how to becomeChristed, is speaking to that
right there and totally negatingthe fact that the soul is
wicked.
Yeah Right, very unfortunateFalse Jesus, absolutely so.
That's leading a lot of peopleastray.
I know too.
Another one is um.
When noel gave her testimonyshe'd managed, mentioned
preterism and you said preterismor pentecostalism.

(47:40):
You were right, because when Italked to that pastor at the
mega church I was at the megachurch and I talked.
I asked hey, uh, what do y'allthink of like pentecostalism?
And uh, you know speaking intongues and all this he said we
don't talk about that here.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
Yeah, you can go to my house.
Yeah, exactly, I have no churchdown by the fairgrounds.
You can go check out.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
But preterism was something I actually read into
months after I had gotten saved.
It was probably like a yearafter I got saved.
But anyway, you know I'm aChristian, I looked into it, you
know what I mean and it'sfascinating stuff.
You know, a lot of people outthere are talking about us being
in the little season of Satan,right, and just you know.
Whatever it is is that you know?

(48:25):
I think what the argument isessentially is that we were
deceived in at some point in the1800s there was, you know,
false Christian values that cameout, that spread amongst the
church, that are now carriedinto this century, that are
essentially talking about us,you know, being pre-rapture,
we're waiting for Jesus' return,all of these things.
But essentially, we'repre-millennial reign.
Right, we haven't reached thatyet.

(48:45):
Now there's a line of thinkingand these are Christians that
are talking about this, that aretalking about no, the
millennial reign happenedthrough the medieval period and
that was all covered up, right,and it's a whole conspiracy
theory.
Amidst this, you know, this sortof theological discussion too,
which is really interesting.
So there's a lot being tossedaround there, but essentially
the argument is we're not, youknow, waiting for the rapture.

(49:09):
It's happened and we're inSatan's little season and that's
why everything's so messed up,and you're seeing the Grammy
Award shows and they're justhonoring the devil at all costs,
right, and these are thingsthat I think are leading people
in a certain direction.
You want to speak to that alittle bit, because I know
you've heard about this.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
So that idea is that 99% of the book of Revelation
already happened.
Right, it's called fullpreterism.
And so their view, and evenpartial preterists, those who
believe that some of it happenedis that we are essentially

(49:48):
post-millennial.
There is apost-millennialismialism also.
Right, that is not necessarilyfull predal predarism.
There's also an allmillennialism, that says that
the millennial millennium is a.
It is a uh happening in aperiod well it, yeah, yes, it is
a uh analogy or a metaphor.
Right it, it's.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
It's not a literal right thousandyear reign that
kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
And so the preterists that you're talking about, the
partial preterists that you'retalking about, believe that,
essentially, we are in theseason of the release of Satan
to go around and deceive all ofthe nations of the earth, and
then the dog may gawk, and thenthe triumphant return of Jesus.
And then the triumphant returnof Jesus.
I'm really glad you broughtthis up, because there are

(50:48):
certain things in Christianityand I teach this at the Bible
School what we call theAugustinian Creed or the
Augustine Creed, depending onhow you pronounce his name and
it's accredited to him and hereportedly said this an
essential's unity innon-essentials liberty, and in
all things charity.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Okay, and so what he meant by that was in the things
that make a Christian aChristian like.
We must believe this, we musthave unity.
We cannot divide over thenature of God.
We cannot divide over thenature of god.
We cannot divide over thenature of salvation.
We cannot divide over thepersonal work of jesus.
We cannot those kinds of things.
Right yeah there's things thatare absolutely necessary for you

(51:25):
to even be considered achristian, right okay.
But in the secondary things,what we call non-essential
matters, got it, we've gotfreedom, bro.
You want to believe in a flatearth, whatever right.
You want to believe in apre-trib or a post-trib rapture,
whatever right?
Like, like, believe that,whatever those things are

(51:48):
non-essential.
Here's another one gifts of thespirit.
Yeah, like I can fellowshipwith a brother in Christ who
doesn't believe that the giftsof the Holy Spirit exist today.
A cessation.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
That's a secondary matter, it's not a primary
matter, it's not an essentialmatter.
The problem is is when peopleout there begin to make
secondary matters primary.
So I was watching this guywho's a pre-trib rapture guy and
he's talking to another guy andsaying you're not saved if you
don't believe in a pre-tribrapture there you go.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
That's about it's a solid.
He makes a salvation 100.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
Yeah, when you start a non-essential matter, a
non-salvific matter, to suddenlynow being salvific or even even
necessary for us to even getalong right yeah, like you don't
.
You don't believe in the giftsof the holy spirit, so so I'm
not even going to be your friendreally yeah, yeah, like that's

(52:43):
not that's that's, that'simmaterial so it sounded a lot
like in a demonic assignment.
I 100% and it's the flesh a lottoo, and I'll tell you what
happened yeah, is that?
People go gnostic.
Yeah, absolutely.
And and the propensity of theflesh to be like oh, I got I got
secret knowledge zane yeah Igot, let me tell you that's why
I think it's demonic though yougot that gnosis revelation

(53:08):
reality homie.
All you did was watch a stupidtiktok youtube yeah, yeah like
you you got some, some demonicrevelation.
Look, there's nothing new underthe sun, dude like the
slovatsky crow like the wholezeitgeist thing yeah yeah, yeah
realize, like they watch thezeitgeist video or they they get

(53:29):
in there.
They're like oh, horace andjesus are are aligned.
No, dude, horace lost his penis.
That's not in the bible yeah,not at all, it's good yeah, like
people don't understand thatstuff has been demolished years
ago it muddies the whole gospel.
Yeah, it totally does, yeah andwhat happens is we've got a new
generation of people who don'tknow any better yeah, and so

(53:49):
then begins to shop around theold lies that they caught people
with last time, yeah, and thenthey catch people up again this
time.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Right.
It stimulates againintellectualism, which is
self-help 100% that narcissismExactly Pride ego.
Self-gratification throughintellectualism.

Speaker 4 (54:05):
Yeah, yeah, a false intellectualism because it's
lazy.
It's not even a real erudite.
It's, like you said, YouTubeand TikTok.
You watch a six minute video.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:14):
All of a sudden, you're an erudite and scholar.
Now right.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
Like no, no, it doesn't work like that.
You're an expert, because twodifferent TikTokers told you
something.

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Google told you this Right right.
So, yeah, which, by the way,lends itself back to the point
we were talking about too.
Like people typically peoplewho leave church for
non-legitimate reasons arepeople like this who don't have
that love that we've beentalking about since we've
started our podcast, and sothey're characterized by these
common themes here, like a lovefor self so as to not deny self

(54:44):
to go to church, and then adenial of the love of the truth.
Like you mentioned before, theylove not the truth and
therefore God gives them over totheir own nonsense.
Like you mentioned before, theylove not the truth and
therefore God gives them over totheir own nonsense.
And so these type of things,when you see these type of
things happening to your pointagain, jess it's a sign of the
time for sure.
I think that's one of thebiggest signs.
I'm not looking for wars inIsrael, I'm not looking for

(55:09):
floods although those things arenecessary too a sort of heart
whereby narcissism and self-loveis, like, exacerbated to the
point where you run away fromchurch because you feel like I
don't need church, I am so wisein and of myself, or, to think
it like this, I don't need to goto church.
Those people could fend forthemselves because, again, we're
a body.
The body needs that.
Where would the air be withoutthe eyes and so forth?

(55:30):
Right, and so if you're notthinking on that level, like how
can I go serve my brother,which is the natural tendency of
somebody who's born of thespirit, a desire to serve, not
so much to even be served, butto serve, to see that as the
greater thing?
If that's not you, then it'sinevitable that you will fall
for these things we're talkingabout and then ultimately fall
away from the truth, becausethat's what you want ultimately.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yeah, it satisfies a part of us that wants to truly
understand and grok the gospelitself, which is insanely
complex and we're going to talkabout that in future episodes
without having to do the work,without having to pray, without
having to have a relationshipwithout having to read the.
Bible.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
Well, now you have well said yep, Without having to
die to self.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Without having to die of self without having to read
the Bible, I now understand.
Oh, jesus was just a man.
They took him off the crossbefore he died.
They hid him away.
He didn't actually getresurrected, right?
Yeah, all of this stuff.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
And then they gave him psychedelics when he was on
the cross, so he rose.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah, or to the completely other Gnostic side,
where he just a spirit yep 100.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Yeah, did you die for real?

Speaker 2 (56:31):
yeah, never an illusion never even came into
the that's islam too, wow yeahright, but yeah, wow, I didn't
know that yeah, insanely gnostic.
So these are dangerous thingsand you know, like that's,
that's, that was crowleyismstuff, full-blown gnostic you
know what?
I mean, but this stuff ispermeates, you know, christendom
in a lot of ways, becausepeople are allowing it in the

(56:51):
doors open.
You know what I mean?
Yep, with the gnostic gospelstoo.
That came 47, I think.
You know those, those things,man oh the nag hamadi, yeah
exactly that really, that reallykicked off the new age movement
yeah, in a lot of ways yeahbecause you had the bovatskyism,
you had crowley, now applyingthat practical gnosticism and
the hermeticism, yeah, and thenin you know, the early 1900s and

(57:13):
then, man, when that happened,mid-century, it's like that
kicked into gear the wholeself-worship movement yes
because, the gnostic gospels areall about that.
Yeah, and the history channeldiscovery.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
They've been shopping that stuff around.
Yes, you know, yes, the, the,the gospels that the, the
Council of Nicaea suppressed,and all this just in the
craziest part.
So I watch this stuff andbecause I've got an education
and I know the facts, I cansniff that stuff out from a mile

(57:44):
away.
This is what they're thinkingthis is where they're going,
this is what's happening, etcetera, et cetera, and so I shut
the stuff off, but without fail.
I always get people coming backto me and asking me about these
yes yes, they and and the thetruth is is they.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
They just don't know yeah, yeah, that's exactly it.
It's ignorance, but the hardline that you're right is
crucifixion of self.
Yep, it really is, becausethat's never in there, right?
That's never in there, right?
That's never in there, right.
It's always self-deification.
Right, it really is.
And again it takes the pressureoff of the lack of
understanding that we have ofthe actual gospel that we have

(58:22):
to die.
Actually, what it is is theresponsibility of the gospel,
that's what it is.

Speaker 3 (58:28):
Like understanding whatever that'll come, yeah, but
the responsibility that thegospel really outlines death to
self, that has to happen, andthere's a couple of spots in the
New Testament that talk aboutthe obedience of faith.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
Yeah, Romans 1.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
Right, and I think there's another passage too.

Speaker 4 (58:44):
Yeah, Romans 14 as well.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
I mark them, because obedience and faith are such a
hot topic in the Christianchurch at large.
You know on, you know where'smy will start and his will, and
how do I obey from his will.
It can get complicated infiguring out.
How does God get the glory if Iobey and yet where do I get the

(59:05):
credit?
Does he get the credit and allthis stuff?
But the truth is that thescripture is very clear that the
true faith is evidenced byworks.
Yeah, yeah.
And so if you've really got thatrelationship with Jesus, like
I'll tell you, man, when I gotsaved, I knew a couple of things

(59:27):
instinctively.
One I needed to read the Bible.
Two I needed to pray.
Three I needed to go to church.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
I knew that I don't know how I knew it.
I needed to go to church.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
I knew that I don't know how I knew it, but I knew I
absolutely knew that right.
And so when folks come alongand they get saved and they
don't, they don't have thesesame convictions.
It's one of the reasons why,when I lead somebody to jesus, I
tell them okay, go to church,read your bible, pray and tell
somebody about jesus.
That's your four mainobligations.

(59:54):
I love that it's notcomplicated Privileges.

Speaker 1 (59:57):
It's really not, yeah , that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
That's right.
Privileges, that's the betterway to say that, because
obligation is low.
I mean, it's there, obligationis there.
I'm compelled to preach thegospel and to reach and compel
men, so that's there too.
But yeah, privilege is thebetter one.
That's the higher, higher love.
I do it because I want to.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
I do it because I love it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Yeah, but I tell people those are the four
primary things.
Man, it's not complicated atall, it's pretty simple.
Didn't say it's easy, it's notcomplicated.
Yeah, yeah, well, said it's notcomplicated.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Yeah, yeah, well said so if I'm starting to look into
this stuff, you know not me,but you know I'm talking about
someone who's straying a bitright.
They're looking into thepreterism, they're looking into
self-deification, narcissism,these kinds of things.
Uh, christ, consciousness, thisjust seeped into their feed,
say.
The algorithm did it.
You know, let's blame it on thealgorithm for a second.
The fact that they won't cometo church.

(01:00:51):
Essentially, what that points tois that people won't accept me
for having these fringe ideas.
If I were to show up to church,not even talking about them,
but just having them in my heartor on my mind, you know,
looking at them, divulging inthem, I feel like you know

(01:01:12):
there's an ickiness that comesalong with it, that I can't be
in church now or that, like my,my, my perspectives won't align
with the church elders or thepastor, and so why would they
want me there?
You know there's a victimhoodthat comes along with it too.
Where you stay, you stay away,because you think that you're.
You know you won't be accepted.
That's what it is.
You think you won't be acceptedat church any longer if you
start to entertain some of theseideas, and that's why I think

(01:01:35):
they're so dangerous becausethey start to lead people astray
, right?
Yeah, you're saying they're notsalvific, salvific matters.
Now the, the christian, arechrist consciousness.
Yeah, because that's thedeification of self.

Speaker 3 (01:01:44):
Yeah, you're totally turning your back on christ in
that way yeah, talking aboutthings inside of orthodoxy, so
things that we would considerare still compatible with the
essentials.
Yeah, the third point of thatwas essentials, not essentials
in all things, charity meaninglet's be gracious, yeah, be
gracious with each other, rightand work it out.

(01:02:07):
And still come to church Rightand there does need to be
something that needs to be said.
For, do you trust god?
Yeah, yeah, that's the biggestissue if, if you believe that
god has placed you somewhere andyou know that he's, he's like,
just because you got a johnnycome lately, thought a year
later god hasn't changed hismind.

(01:02:28):
Yeah, like, do you trust him ornot?
like, so many people getdistracted from mission because
of dumb things and it's like dodid you forget what he did?
Amen, did you forget how he didthis?
Did you forget the math on whenthis happened, did you?

(01:02:48):
And it's like, if, if youreally trust God, you need to go
back and remember those thingsand then judge your present
circumstances in light of themoments when you know he was
active and he was doing stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Right, yeah, that's why I said at the start of our
talk that there's thisconnection with regards to faith
and how it plays out in ourgoing to church, because if you
see yourself as part of a biggerwhole, then the natural
knee-jerk reaction is to gothere Again, not going so as to

(01:03:23):
get something, but with themindset of he saved me.
I am no longer my own, I'vebeen bought with a price.
Therefore, I'm going to be, ashe said, salt and light.
Salt has work to do to preserve.
I'm part of a body whichpreserves.
If the body isn't doing whatit's supposed to do, then
society will envelop into allsorts of ugly sores.

(01:03:44):
Right, we need to preserve.
Therefore, which is happening?
Oh, absolutely.
And then I'm light.
Therefore I need to be, asJesus says, not a light that's
hidden under a basket, but on acity that could be seen, and
therefore it implies me goingout to be seen.
And so if you have this sort ofmindset again, faith is the
connecting factor there thenobviously you're going to go,

(01:04:06):
because you're going to thinkand live as if.
Here's a simple example, Ibelieve, which is common sense,
but I'll say it nonetheless thatif I don't work, I won't eat
and my kids will starve.
Therefore, I go to work,despite how I feel or don't feel
.
I go to work.
Likewise, if I believe, as Ijust said, that I'm salt and
light and I haveresponsibilities and privileges

(01:04:29):
before God and before my fellowbrothers and sisters in faith,
then I am going to go, despitehow I feel and don't feel,
because I'm not going for myself, I'm going for God's glory.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
Amen yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Yeah, amen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
So there's a lot of stuff out there, you know that
you know is concerning, you knowthat can lead people astray.
But I think again thatremembering the relationship
that you've had with God rightIn the past, that you've had
with Jesus in the past, you know, and relying on that, you know
um another one I wanted to bringup and I'd be totally remiss if

(01:05:04):
I didn't is this idea of thefeminine and that not being
represented in the Trinity.
You know that's a lot of thearguments from a new age, or you
know more so of maybe, someonewho's come out of the new age.
You know where, where's thefeminine represented and that's
what you see.
People sometimes backsliding onum is seeking that, because in
the new age the feminine is,just, is, is almost paramount to
the rest of everything else,because it's been, you know, the

(01:05:29):
, the idea of the patriarchy andthe new age really go hand in
hand in a lot of ways, where thefeminine has kind of been, you
know, quieted and silenced in alot of ways.
And so when you are trying tofind a place for that, because
you still have a reservationdeep inside of you that the
feminine should be somewhereright and you want to place that
somewhere in the Trinity or inChristendom in some way, your

(01:05:51):
understanding of it at least,it's a tough one, because I
think a lot of people areseeking that in some way but
don't quite know where to put it.
When it comes to that, and ifyou want to speak a little bit
about that, I think it's a goodthing to get into, at least to
acknowledge you know.

Speaker 3 (01:06:05):
Sure, I think that the folks who are reaching for
that have felt like there's someneed or desire to identify
what's present on the planetwith what's present in heaven
and eternity.
Yeah, Okay.
Yeah, and the problem is thatthat is doing things exactly the

(01:06:29):
wrong way.
Yeah, definition does not starton the face of the planet.
Definition starts from the onethrough whom all definition
starts.
Well, said so holiness is notdefined as what I do on the face
of the planet.
It's defined from the characterand nature of God.
Goodness is not defined as thepracticality of me walking an

(01:06:54):
old lady across the street orpaying for somebody's groceries
or a mom breastfeeding her baby,which are all relatively on the
face of the planet, what wewould judge as good things or
not, evil kind of a thing.
But to take those things andlook for representations of
those things in heaven is toexactly invert the process you

(01:07:18):
are supposed to define fromheaven downward.
And it's one of theconversations we were having
about the intentional inversionof the satanic deception.

Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
Jesus says on earth as it is in heaven.
Yet the the hermeticismstatement is as above, so below.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
And as within, so without Right Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
And so it sounds almost exactly the same, but
it's direction is completely thewrong way right, yeah, yeah.
Now when it comes to thefeminine aspect, that is a
nature of the created order itis not something that is eternal

(01:08:10):
, a characteristic of the world.
100 yeah it is a yeah.
It is like eve the, the, she.
She did not exist as a personuntil she's taken out of adam as
a real person.
Yeah, yeah, right okay yeah, soin other words, adam isn't like
looking at his ribbon going hey,eve before.

(01:08:31):
There's not two consciousnessesinside of adam present at the
same time.
Right, right, that's not there,right?
She does not exist as a.
She exists as an idea in themind of god, because he knows
what he's going to do before hedoes it.
You know that kind of a thing.
But as far as an actualexpression, etc.

(01:08:54):
Etc.
What, whatnot?
Yeah, she does not exist untilshe's created yeah okay when
she's created.
She's not created as areflection of god and she's
created to help adam.
Yeah, adam, yeah, here's amission Adam to in the garden

(01:09:16):
Genesis chapter 2.
Genesis chapter 2 is the zoomedin version of what happened on
the sixth day in Genesis,chapter 1.
So what happens?
God creates Adam, god puts himin a garden.
God says till the garden.
God says hmm, not good for Adamto be alone.
What is God's judgment ofAdam's status before he creates

(01:09:40):
Eve Alone?
Yeah okay, by himself, nobodyelse, right?
Right, I am going to make him ahelper suitable for him.
Yep, then he walks all theanimals in front of him.
Adam's like, hmm, names themall and and there's almost this,

(01:10:02):
this, uh, the.
The naming of the animalscorresponds to the aloneness of
Adam, right?
So the idea is Adam is awarethere is nobody suitable for him
, there is nothing suitable forhim, and then suddenly God says
let me put you to sleep, buddy,I got a great thing.
Yeah, takes the rib out, makesthe woman and Adam's mind is

(01:10:27):
blown.

Speaker 4 (01:10:28):
He speaks poetry for the first time.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
Oh my gosh, what is this Flesh of my flesh, bone of
my bone I'm like?
Well, you know, think of the,the old cartoons, uh, for Looney
Tunes, when they go.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Oh, that's the idea of what's happening in that

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
moment.
Exactly why?

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
did god create eve not to reflect his nature
differently, not to do.
He created eve to help adam?
That's right, okay.
Bigger picture, yeah.
That, then, is revealed inephesians to reveal to us the
role between Jesus and hischurch.

(01:11:13):
Yep.
Yes, the point of Adam and Eveis not to tell us something of
the internal relationship of theTrinity, but to tell us part of
God's redeemed created orderand what he plans going forward
in the relationship between theone person of the Trinity, the

(01:11:34):
Son, and his church, whom hesaves and redeems.
Right as his bride, yep Right.
And so the point isn't evensexuality.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:44):
Yeah, that's not it.
The point is, I am here to helpyou do what you're supposed to
do, jesus.
You save the earth.
Your church comes, like evedoes to adam, and helps you save
the earth, right?
So the entire thing is rootedin the created order of

(01:12:05):
redemption and these things inthe plan of god, and not the
eternal nature of god himself.
Yeah, yes, well said.
And so to take these themes andtry to extrapolate them back
into or there's a word for it toreverse engineer them, yes,
into the nature of god, is whatwe call a categorical confusion.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Sure, it's a false logic yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
Okay, it's the.
What's commonly said in ourlanguage is the apples and
oranges.
You're comparing apples andoranges, right?
Yep, god is in a category untohimself, amen.
Gospel john, chapter one, versethree everything that has been
said to have had a beginningcame into being by him.

(01:12:55):
Right, he's uncreated 100.
Yeah, so he is in a categoryunto his own right, and there
are certain things in thecreated category that do not
cross over into the uncreatedcategory, and there are like,
for instance, creation.
God will never be created rightso our, our, uh, being

(01:13:17):
createdness, our having abeginning, will never apply to
him.
In gender 100, gender is partof the created, exactly yeah,
and there are certain things ofthe uncreated category that will
never cross into the createdcategory, like, for instance,
inexhaustibility, neverendingness.

(01:13:38):
We will always have had abeginning.
He's never had a beginning.
So we call these incommunicableattributes, and communicable
attributes theologically, thingsthat can be communicated from
God to us and things that cannotbe communicated from God to us.
And so we are almost looking totry to take things that are of

(01:14:00):
the created order and imposethem into the non-created.
That don't match even even theidea of father and son.
Sure, okay, yep, those are roledefinitions, not sexuality.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
It's a term of convenience to refer to him as
he those kinds of things.
Is that kind of?

Speaker 3 (01:14:20):
I wouldn't, carly, because it's not offhanded.
Yeah, okay, convenience kind ofmakes it like this is the
easiest thing to do, sure it isintentional, okay 100, but it's
meant to convey role, sure, yesit's meant to convey order.
It's meant to can like thesekinds of things.
It's not meant to convey likegod.
The father does not have apenis, right?
When we call him father, yeahright, I mean he had a penis.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
He did not copulate with mary yeah as some people
say right, right as as as themormons would say yeah, yeah,
totally, yeah father, god camedown and had physical relations
with mary.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Right?
That's not what those thingsmean.
Right, those areanthropomorphisms that are
seeking to tell us somethingabout god that he chose to
reveal to us.
Yeah, yeah, like think about it, the jews.
To hear that God was Father wasforeign to them.
So you've got this entirerevelation of God revealing
himself, and then, suddenly,this idea of the fatherhood of

(01:15:18):
God comes and the revelation ofChrist, and it's meant to
communicate A I belong to hisfamily, I'm part of his
household, and B he's in charge.
Father's the beginning.
Father's the beginning.
Father's the head.
He was referred to as.
Abba, though, prior to that ornot, there are a couple of
places that talk about, abouthim being father in the old

(01:15:40):
Testament, but but the idea ofcalling him father by the
standard Jew?

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
That's blasphemy.
Correct Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
Okay, interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:15:50):
Which is why, when you get these things sorry buddy
, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
That's okay, go for it.

Speaker 4 (01:15:53):
Thank you.
Which is why, when you getthese things, man, it kind of
creates in you this genuinedesire for worship.
Right Like as I hear you guystalk and extrapolate scripture.
I'm thinking of David in thePsalms.
He says what is man, thatyou're mindful of him?
It's because you're realizingall these truths that are so far

(01:16:14):
beyond who you are and that ismade known to you in such an
intimate way that your wholelife again going back to the
circle, back to church, this isjust like a natural expression.
This is just like a naturalexpression.
God has made me a son.
Are you kidding me?
Before, they couldn't even callhim father because it seemed
blasphemous.
Yet Jesus comes down, revealsthat he is my father and I get

(01:16:36):
to use these words and not beblasphemous, and his spirit's
put in me so as to say this in agenuine place.
And how could that not producein somebody worship?
If you are a Christian, it will, and then you will go to church
because of these things,because they're innate.
You're not trying to drum upthese emotions Again as I'm

(01:16:57):
hearing you talk.
I literally I'm not aPentecostal like you guys, but I
almost did a backflip.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
I'm super excited.
Right now we're praying for you.

Speaker 4 (01:17:02):
I rebuke that.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
Circle back real quick to the feminine thing.
What people don't realize is,um, in the new testament in
particular.
So there's neither jew norgreek, nor male nor female, nor
freed nor slave, nor anything.
Okay, so there's actually aremoval of those things and I I
think that there is aestablishing of the role in

(01:17:24):
order to remove the role, sothat you understand what it is
when you're given the removal ofthe role yes, so these things
are there as well.
Like I am, I am a sinner who'snow made a saint, so wrestle
with the sin, nature and thosekinds of things, but both things
are true of me at the same time.
But but I look forward to theday where I have a resurrected
body, like his body, and I walkin the freedom of sonship.

(01:17:48):
So that, and, and and what isthat contrasted to the freedom
of, uh, or the, the contrast ofthe bondage of sonship to the
demonic and to the devil?
So so these things are there,and so there's this removal,
actually, of the societalstructures slave, free, female,

(01:18:09):
male, rich, poor this levelingof all things because we're all
going to be one in Christ.
And then, secondarily, jesussays in the resurrection, they
are neither married nor given inmarriage, and so that role of
male, female in mission in theearth and all of this other

(01:18:31):
stuff is then eclipsed by myrelationship with Christ and so
my marriage to my wife.
I'll still remember that we weremarried, I'll still have the
experiences of when we weremarried, etc.
But my marriage will bereplaced by my relationship with
Jesus.
A greater reality, yes, and sothis male-female thing is like

(01:18:59):
eclipsed by the greater idea ofunity with God.
Yes, yes, right, in which thereis no male or female.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
Yes, yeah, it speaks to sort of the male and female,
the gender question, as sort oflike an illustration of what
happens when a spiritual thingbecomes a physical thing.
It enters into duality right,and with Adam and Eve, you know,
in a lot of ways that is anillustration of duality right
there, the male and female, thevery first male and female right

(01:19:28):
.
But she came as his helper, youput it right, and I think too
that there is a confusion withthe holy spirit and that being
feminine too.

Speaker 3 (01:19:38):
So let's talk about that, yeah yeah, so listening to
one podcaster and they werelike the holy spirit's never
referred to in the masculine,which isn't true.
He is actually, um, it's aspirit of god.
So, yeah, and he's actuallycalled the comforter, um, if I
remember the the, theconversation we're having before
, where, where that is masculine, right, but he's also referred

(01:20:01):
to in in language male andfemale, feminine, masculine and
and neuter neutral.
Uh, yeah, yeah, they're.
They are less about sex andmore about language construct,

(01:20:22):
right, okay, sure, so you, youwouldn't name a female with a
male name, like that would beabnormal.
But you know, in in spanish,does this the?
yeah, right the door is, youknow I.
I don't know spanish, but theentire language itself is for
the sake of argument, the dooris oriented right, yeah, or is
male, well, it doesn't mean ithas a penis right, right, and in

(01:20:44):
greek, the the same thing therole for the role, for those
masculine, feminine and neuteris so that you can connect it to
different thoughts when youwrite and when you speak.
Yeah, and so the neutered nounsrefer to those things that are

(01:21:05):
neutral in the sentencestructure, those modifiers that
are in this tense or that caseand and so all that, all that
stuff is, uh, is not sexual yeah, okay, yeah um, that's, that's
the first thing.
The second thing is that youknow, thinking conceptually, the
those who want to make the holyspirit um feminine.

(01:21:26):
Dude, he's the one whoimpregnates mary.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
Right, that's not a feminine role if you're gonna
argue for a gender, that's right, although nowadays in that,
yeah, he was not the womb he wasthe other part right correct,
he was he was the impregnator,not the impregnated yeah okay,
so, so the those things aretheir, their reaches further.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
You know, for those who are paying attention, this,
this, the, the, the idea thatthe holy spirit is the divine
feminine, is the exact lie thata lot of the occultic world
right now is, yes, to express,to get its fingers into the
church yeah, there you go,absolutely that is the exact lie

(01:22:11):
.
Yeah, that and and for you and Iwe've had the conversations.
There are a couple of names outthere, big names of people who
are communing with these things,who exactly are saying that the
next revelation of god is thedivine feminine and attaching it
to old e gods by name.
This de-identified itself asthat, and so this exact lie is

(01:22:35):
what's being shopped by thedemonic realm to infiltrate the
church, and people need torealize and this is one of the
reasons why being a part of alocal church is so important God
has ordained, the structures ofapostles, prophets, pastors,
teachers and evangelists.
That structure means these arethose who lead and are given
that.
The the the structures ofapostles, prophets, pastors,
teachers and evangelists.
Like that structure means theseare those who lead and are
given that, and one of those isteacher yeah, yeah like that,

(01:22:56):
that that thing like god.
Like first john says you don'tneed a teacher because you have
the anointing, and yet the other, the ephesians, says that there
is a thing called a teacher,and first corinthians 12, the
latter part, says that teachersthe third level of authority in
the local church yeah and sowhat do they do?
They teach well what does?

(01:23:17):
that do?
It keeps you doctrinally rooted, so that you're not bewitched
by these doctrines of demons?
Yeah, so that you're not takenand bamboozled by these spirits
that are seeking to give yousomething that your own person
wants to feel some kind of wayabout, so you can be led astray.
Why?
Because of what Thessalonianssays.

(01:23:37):
Because you refuse to receive alove of the truth, you're
loving the wrong things, and sothese demons come and they offer
this new thing to you.
And because you refuse to lovethat which is true, you're led
astray to love the thing that'snot true.
Yeah, and before you know it,you open up your eyes and you're
so far off the reservation yesyeah, and how do you get back

(01:24:02):
like you'll like big?
door for real, like a personswept out to sea by a tide, sure
a rip current, who now is milesaway from the shore and lit in
by terror because they can'tmake their way back to the beach
.

Speaker 4 (01:24:16):
Yeah, well said.

Speaker 3 (01:24:17):
Somebody needs to hear that today, being the
source of wisdom and that, beingfeminine, has traction in early
gnosticism right it does andit's it's of the millennia it's
because the bible speaks in thatway.

(01:24:38):
The book of proverbs, yes,personifies wisdom as a female,
feminine right.
Okay, yeah, and but that's oneof those anthropomorphism things
, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
Okay, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
So like, for instance , when, when the scripture says,
god measured out the, theuniverse, or the, the created
order, the heavens and the earthby the span of his hands.
It's from the pinky to the tipof the thumb, or something like
that.
Does that mean that God has aliteral hand that's now billions
and trillions of miles long?
No, that's not what it means.

Speaker 1 (01:25:06):
Yeah miles long.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
No, that's not what it means.
It is meant to to um convey toyou how big god is and how small
the creation is andinsignificant compared to him
man is man is just dust.
Am I literally dust right now?
No, no, no, it's meant toconvey I am nothing here today,
gone tomorrow, blown away like avapor in the wind.
You know, these, these arepoetic ways of saying things
that are meant to convey thingsthat that are, uh, that on the

(01:25:38):
surface are not exactly whatthey say.
Yeah, and all of that comesfrom hebrew parallelism and
poetry that we already know ismetaphorical, right, yep, yep,
like the way it's written in thepassages.
You know it's a metaphor, true,right, because of its
structures.
Way, like you, if you read thenew american standard, it, it

(01:26:01):
parses out, breaks out what'swhat's poetry from what's not,
with a different, um, sequencing, so that you can tell that's
poetry from what's not, with adifferent sequencing, so that
you can tell that's poetrythat's not, that's poetry that's
not, that's poetry that's not.
And so all of those, we knowthat that's parallelism, we know
that that's Hebrew poetry.
Yeah, very cool, well said,yeah, so you know it's the.

(01:26:24):
You know the divine feminine,unfortunately, is an essential
matter.
Yeah, absolutely, the, you knowthe divine feminine,
unfortunately, is an essentialmatter.
Yeah, that absolutely talkingabout the nature of god, so that
that is something that isabsolutely essential.
Um, and it happens to be one ofthe lies that the demonic is is
presenting and and if we'vebeen right in our conversation,
it may be the lie.
Yeah it's a big lie yeah, I'vegot two on my radar that are

(01:26:48):
huge, that that may be the lie,and one of them is the stuff
that's happening with the aliendeception, and the other one, um
, which I believed before.
Uh, uh, was it's islam sure yeahand so the, those two things,
the, the present trajectory of,of islam and the present stuff
coming out of the, the, thealien world, you know, which is

(01:27:11):
all smoke and mirrors, um, andthose two lies have the
potential to be like the lies.
Sure, yeah, so, um, but thereare other things that are
non-essential, yeah, you know,and, and it's good to identify.
And just because your pastorbelieves something different

(01:27:32):
than you do about anon-essential matter doesn't
mean you can't trust him and youcan't.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
Yeah, man, you can't show up to church, seriously,
yeah, and you know to wrap, wrapback around, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:27:43):
yeah, you know, discern primary issues versus
secondary issues.
We cannot divide over primary,but we allow variance over
secondary and if somebody elsepicks to divide over a secondary
matter, it's dangerous.
Now made that secondary mattera matter of primary importance,

(01:28:03):
which is exactly why you'regoing to be deceived.
Yeah, yeah, well said I believethat that thing is so important
that you must believe that oryou're not going to find God, or
you don't believe in God, oryou know something along those
lines.
Okay, and we've all got our ownpet things.

Speaker 4 (01:28:20):
Yeah, we've all got our own pet things.
Or, more specific, you believethat your interpretation of a
non-essential matter is supposedto be greater than the unity of
the brethren.
It's funny One of the thingsyou talked about at the
beginning was the people inother countries who are facing
severe persecution are unitingin despite of persecution, and I

(01:28:43):
oftentimes think like this Ithink in America, while I think
it is a blessing that we have,like, the opportunities to
gather without you know sort ofpersecution and that sort of
thing, I think too, we've kindof gorged ourselves on grace to
the point that we we lose, likewhat I mean to say is, in china
or nigeria, for example, theydon't have the privilege to

(01:29:07):
disagree on non-essential issues.
Your brother, it's true, if Idon't, if I don't help you, you
die.
If you don't help the privilegeto disagree on non-essential
issues.
You're a brother, it's true, ifI don't help you, you die.
If you don't help me, you dieRight.
And therefore there's just thislove for the brotherhood that,
despite, they don't losefriendships and love over
non-essential issues.
They exist, right, right, and Ithink that's a grace of God.

(01:29:28):
To be fair, that's anotherstory for another time but they
don't lose relationships overthat.
Here, though, again, we've kindof gorged ourselves on the
various braces we experience,and so, therefore, as a result,
rather than understanding theneed for non-essential issues so
as to prove love because that'swhat the Bible says Jesus says
don't be like the sinners whoonly love those who are like

(01:29:50):
them, who think like them.
You be different.
Love, love, love, right.
Instead of using theseopportunities to display the
true nature of the Christian,that is to say, love, we've done
the opposite.
We've become like Jesus inanother parable, where he says
not a parable, but a scene therewhere the disciples see some

(01:30:13):
other people doing some work andthey say, jesus, they're not
doing it like we should or wewould.
And he says this is somethingwe all need to learn, right, and
this is kind of germane to ourtalk here.
He says if they're not againstme, they're for me and therefore
for us.
So don't worry about thenon-essentials, that's okay.

(01:30:34):
Unite on the things that matter, the things that glorify Jesus,
and that's okay, and that'spart of showing again what it
means to be a loving believer.
So it's necessary.

Speaker 2 (01:30:46):
Thank you for that.
If you're listening and youhave entertained some of these
non-essential topics and feel asthough you're not welcome at
church anymore, think again.
Yeah, come back through.
We want you, you know yeah, 100.

Speaker 3 (01:30:59):
Yeah, and you know, do major on the majors, don't
major on the minors.
Yeah, you know that.
That that's, that's just,that's not worth it.
Yeah, you know, we, we've all.
There are things that that thatthe rest of of the pastoral
team I'm on hold to and thatthat others don't, and they're

(01:31:21):
like, and there's variance evenamongst us.
Yeah, and that's actually part.
That's good actually, yes it isyes.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
The variance is a good thing.

Speaker 3 (01:31:30):
Absolutely.
So you know, don't, but don'texalt the variances to things
that are not necessary, Right?

Speaker 4 (01:31:38):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:31:39):
And make sure, but those that are essential.
You got to believe the rightthing on those.

Speaker 4 (01:31:46):
Like you, must Hold out with a tight grip.

Speaker 3 (01:31:49):
Have to be unified on the essentials, but we, we are,
we are.
We give freedom in thenon-essentials and we need to be
gracious in all things which isthe Augustinian creed and
that's the.
It's the right way to handlebrothers and sisters in the
church and that's the reason whyI teach it in our, in our
doctrines class, for the LVS isunderstand it, especially when

(01:32:09):
it comes to doctrine, becausethose are the matters, the
teachings, the structuralteachings of the thing.
I think I want to read apassage and then we can go ahead
and close here.

Speaker 1 (01:32:29):
I think, yeah, we're there.

Speaker 3 (01:32:37):
Therefore, brethren, this is Hebrews 10, verse 19.
Since we have confidence toenter the holy place by the
blood of Jesus, this is talkingabout fellowship with God in the
holy of holies by his blood,verse 20,.
By a new and living way, whichhe inaugurated for us through
the veil that is his flesh,meaning he died.
How do we get there?
We die, and since we have agreat priest over the house of
god, let us draw near with asincere heart, in full assurance

(01:33:00):
of faith, having our heartssprinkled from an evil
conscience and our bodies washedwith pure water.
Let us hold fast the confessionof our hope without wavering,
for he promises faithful.
Let us consider to stimulateone another to love and good
deeds.
Yes, not forsaking our ownassembling together, as is the
habit of some, but encouragingone another even the more as you

(01:33:24):
see the day drawing near comeon, and so you see all the
pictures.
That's there.
He says the therefore isbecause of this.
Let us be together, hold fastour confession of hope, this and
these promises to those whorefuse to forsake these
something of ourselves.
We hold fast the confession ofour hope.

(01:33:45):
That's together, withoutwavering.
That's stability, finding hisfaithfulness.
You promise is faithful.
Let us consider meaning we areable to, to think heavenly
things about what stimulatingone another to love and good
deeds, not forsaking our own,assembling together but
encouraging one another even asyou draw, as the day draws near.

(01:34:06):
And so all of these things thatcome from our fellowship with
him.
Fellowship with him producesfellowship with his church, full
stop.
First, john, one, one throughfour, what we, what we know,
we've make known unto you andyour fellowship is with us, and
our fellowship is with him.
It's really interesting that hedoesn't say we make known unto

(01:34:30):
you and now your fellowship iswith him.
It's really interesting that hedoesn't say we make known unto
you and now your fellowship iswith him.
Nope, his statement is clear wehave fellowship with him and
you have fellowship with us.
And because you have fellowshipwith us, you have fellowship
with him.
That's right.
Yeah, well, that's what he says, don't?

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
know what to tell you , okay.

Speaker 3 (01:34:48):
But the experience of that community and that
communion happens with thebrethren and that expression
happens in a local body.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (01:35:01):
It happens in a group of covenanted believers who've
said we're going to do thistogether, and it centers around
mission.
That's where it happens.
The idea of a group of localbelievers just getting together
to just get together issecondary.
The point is mission.
Oil comes from the tree and thetree is chosen according to

(01:35:23):
purpose.
You read Zechariah.
I picked these two, one togovern the culture of my house
and one to govern the buildingof my house.
It's Joshua and Zerubbabel.
Those are the two sons of freshoil, the olive trees.
That happens according tomission.
You as a lampstand.
The church cannot have oilunless you are properly aligned

(01:35:44):
to that olive tree, which meansan alignment with the mission so
the whole thing happens,happens in that zone, and you
know all the inferences arethere.
If you want to be by yourself,that means you don't want god's
mission amen you want to gatherin, in, in in his name is just
two or two, or three.
Gather in his name.

(01:36:05):
Listen, you are.
You are more akin to witchesand pagans practicing witchcraft
who are hoping that they havethe name of jesus like a cross
on their neck.
That's a trinket that they'regoing to rub before they have a
job interview, so that they hopeto get the job interview,
that's right more like a coventhan a congregation.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
A hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (01:36:28):
That is not covenant.
Covenant is with the personwhom the name represents, the
substance that the namerepresents, and if you do not
have connection to the substanceof the person.
You do not have connection tothe name, it's just a trinket.
And that you stand in front ofGod on the last day and use his
name as a trinket.
He's going to go.
What did they say?
Lord, lord, and he goes.

(01:36:50):
Never knew you, right, but Iwore a cross.
Never knew you, but I said yourname all the time, never knew
you.
Yeah, that's terrifying, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:37:02):
In the Old Testament.
He says Covenanted expression.

Speaker 3 (01:37:05):
local expression is what God has picked.
Expression, local expression,is what God has picked why?
Because he's the greatest Sonof Fresh Oil.
Jesus is the branch who is thegreatest olive tree.
Jesus is the one who walksamongst the lampstands in the
book of Revelation, who givesHis oil to His people.

(01:37:26):
And you cannot be a part ofChrist without being a part of
his body.
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Yeah, well said, you're crafted back in Christian
.
Yeah, well said, time is nigh.
Yeah, yeah, thank you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:37:40):
Closing thoughts.
T you good?
You had a little something, orare you good?

Speaker 4 (01:37:44):
No, no, you said it.
Well, man, amen, you said itwell, man, amen, amen to that.

Speaker 2 (01:37:48):
Thank you, my brothers, amen.
Another fantastic discussion.
I'm glad we could defend thehonor of the Holy Spirit,
because boy is he present duringthese convos, man, and I'm so
grateful for that.

Speaker 3 (01:37:57):
Amen.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
Thank you again to all the listeners and viewers.
You guys really make this whatit's worth and you know, I just
I want to say yeah, a big thanksto you guys.
And I just want to say yeah, abig thanks to you guys, and then
send this to one or two otherpeople today that you think
would benefit from it.
Everyone who's listening rightnow send it out, get the word
out, because we want to be ableto spread this and help some

(01:38:21):
people out, encourage folks,especially with an episode like
this, where it could really meana lot between showing up and
not showing up.
It means everything you knowwhen it comes to your
relationship with the Lord.
You know it could mean life ordeath for you.

Speaker 3 (01:38:37):
Honestly, it really can.

Speaker 2 (01:38:38):
It really can.
So bless you, brothers.
Thank you, man.

Speaker 4 (01:38:42):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):
Glory to God and blood and oil out Later, amen.
Blood and oil out Later, amen.

Speaker 1 (01:38:57):
Blood and Oil podcast is filmed and recorded by
Pastor Jesse and Zane inCalifornia with Terrence, on
video call from the East Coast.
We thank our supporters andplease be reminded to use your
own discernment, as the viewsand opinions expressed by the
hosts and guests may not reflectthose of other people,
institutions or organizations.
A variety of guests will joinus as we discuss modern events

(01:39:18):
through a biblical lens, sobuckle up and enjoy the ride.
Thanks to all of our supportersand praise God for the
opportunity to serve him in thisway.
We hope you have enjoyed thisepisode and pray for blessings
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The Power of Gathering | Safety in the Church at the End of the Age

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Power of Gathering | Safety in the Church at the End of the Age