Unity in the Body | Healing Church Divisions - Blood & Oil Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and
disengaged, the Blood and Oilpodcast cuts through the noise
to reveal the raw, unfilteredwork of the Holy Spirit.
Welcome to the Blood and Oilpodcast.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
All right, welcome to Blood and Oil podcast.
Happy to take a little week off, but really happy to be back
Today.
We're going to be talking abouta really great topic.
I think that's going to be veryuseful to all the listeners.
It's about unity in the body,unity between church members.
Christ calls us to be a part ofa church, to be in fellowship
with a body and sometimes man.

(00:51):
The flesh gets involved.
A lot of times the flesh getsinvolved and I think, selfishly.
I don't know if I'll direct theconversation toward this, but I
do want to talk a little bitabout what is flesh and what is
the enemy?
Right, where does one end andthe next begin?
And in a churchgoer, in amember of a church or a person
who is in Christ and rooted inChrist, their life is in Christ
how often is the enemy reallymaking his way in?

(01:12):
Or you know, and how oftenreally is that person just in
the flesh when they'reinteracting with others and it's
not pretty and their stuff isshowing, and so I think that you
know if we can talk a littlebit about what that looks like,
to kind of reunify afterconflict.
You know what may generateconflict within a body.
All of these things, I think,are going to be very beneficial

(01:34):
to talk about today, so let'sget after it.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, very good.
So I think the opening questionyou had is you know, when it
comes to the demonic, demonicand the flesh, when it comes to
conflict, um, you know, paul'spretty clear we wrestle not
against flesh and blood butagainst spiritual principalities

(02:03):
and spiritual wickedness.
In then, to your point, doesthe, the flesh of the human,
interact with the, the voice ofthe demonic right, and what?
What's typical, especially inour circles?
We got, you know, thecharismatic pentecostalal
circles and even in some of thelarger circles, where you've got

(02:26):
these Baptist folks who dobelieve in deliverance and even
do have some biblicaldeliverance ministries.
I think we posted about RemnantRadio and these guys are, they
are reformed in their doctrineand soteriology, yet they're
full-blown operating in thegifts of the spirit.

(02:48):
So they've got these real, umdeliverance stuff that they're
doing as well.
We would disagree on some ofthe things that that uh, some of
the, the uh doctrinal positionsthat they would have and and
such.
But but a lot of it's good, yeah, or just what they identify as
this or what they identify asthat.
But in our circles, a lot ofpeople they drift into the error

(03:13):
of blaming too much on thedevil and they don't take
personal responsibility for howit is that the devil has incited
us in the first place.
Yeah, well said.
And then those on the oppositeend of the spectrum, they they
focus so much on themortification of self that they

(03:35):
they never acknowledge the, thesupernatural, evil component,
and then they wonder why they'renot getting victory over
certain things when they'reconsistently crucifying the old
man, yeah, the flesh right.
And the the kind of say thingis is that you, you cannot

(03:56):
crucify the devil, you can onlycrucify the flesh and you cannot
cast out the flesh.
You can only cast out a devil,right.
And so the proper method andunderstanding and understanding
what's happening on in theperson is absolutely critical in
our world.
Um, I'll share a funny story.

(04:16):
I was in bible school and, uh,one of my professors was talking
about um, the old school churchmodel was you would come to
church two or three hours early,you'd have sunday school for an
hour and then you'd have abreak and then you'd have
worship and then you'd have asermon wow.

(04:36):
And then you'd have lunch wow.
So I was discipled by anafrican-american man name um and
for a number of years, and thatmodel was church is six hours,
sure okay and uh big sunday.
It's a long sunday and and umfull sabbath so yeah, right and

(04:58):
so at any rate, uh, the the oldmodel they.
There was a woman who wasteaching a bible study, um, that
what they would call Sundayschool, and Sunday school was
the model an hour before churchor whatever it was, and it was
broken up according to agegroups.
And so she's teaching thisclass and there's a guy in there
and he falls asleep duringSunday school and she says I

(05:19):
rebuke that demon of sleepinessin the name of Jesus, that demon
of sleepiness in the name ofjesus and my bible college
professor.
He says the dude worked allnight on saturdays that's all it
was yeah, like he just workedall night on saturdays, right,
and so he would come in onsundays, having worked all night

(05:41):
.
So he was tired.
He made it too.
Yeah, and, and so the thenature of it was there was no
demon of sleepiness, there wasno right, you know there was no
spirit lurking in in the rafterstrying to take you know?
yeah, it wasn't the math, it wasjust the natural person.
Right, he was tired.
Um, yet on the opposite end ofthe spectrum, there are things

(06:06):
that oftentimes seem veryinnocuous, like I myself.
I I get headaches, oftentimesright before it's time to do
something spiritual oh yeah,interesting and and there's a
woman in luke that that Jesusdescribes as part of the
covenant community, where hesays this daughter of Abraham.

(06:27):
That is faith language andsalvific faith is the same in
the Old Testament as it is inthe New Testament.
There's no difference in thenature of saving faith between
the Old Testament and NewTestament.
Paul's number one example ofnew testament justification is
the old testament.

(06:48):
Patriarch abraham yeah okay.
So when he says she's a daughterof abraham, he's identifying.
She is a daughter of faith, soshe's a member of the covenant
community.
And jesus says that the devilhas bound her in her back for 17
long years.
Right, and he doesn't, you know, do the the pop deliverance

(07:10):
thing that we see today and tryto provoke a conversation with
the spirit and all this otherweird stuff.
He simply tells her what's truewoman, you are freed right,
yeah so that's good.
Sometimes there is a dynamicwhere it is demonic and
sometimes there's not, and evenin James, where he talks about

(07:33):
wisdom from above and wisdomfrom below, which wisdom from
above is from the Lord andwisdom from below is demonic.
He then goes into what is thesource of quarrels and conflicts
among you.
Is it not your own selfishdesires inside of you that
provoke the conflict?
You are an adulteress.
And then immediately seguesinto after these things resist

(07:57):
the devil, submit yourself tothe lord, resist the devil and
he will flee from you.
And so we see these places inscripture where these things are
in tandem.
And the question is well,what's the difference?
jill says in ephesians uh, four,five, um, do not let the sun go
down on your anger, lest yougive the yeah would hold right

(08:18):
there and the term is tapas andit and it means, uh, we get our
word topography, it so atopographical map that shows you
elevation and such.
Yeah, that's where we derivethat term from, and it means a
place, like you know, sometranslations say a foothold or
an opportunity, but it's reallylike a place that you can put

(08:57):
your hand on and touch.
So there is a sense, sure,where they said I think my
spouse needs deliverance, right,and my answer was no, your
spouse needs sanctification,discipline, that's right,
discipline.
Because here's what happens Ifyou're a Christian, the devil

(09:18):
cannot indwell your spirit right.
Yeah, you're indwelt by thespirit of God.
That is an occupied house,right?
The word possession is a badtranslation and and it the the
proper translation is demonized,and that's a spectrum.
Everything from you know aphysical malady or even a

(09:42):
thought that can come and plagueyou.
2 Corinthians 10,.
We take every thought captiveand make it obedient, resisting
these things all the way to thedude in the tombs cutting
himself, running around naked.
The same term applies to all ofit.
So it's a spectrum spectrum.

(10:10):
The nature of of how thataffects the christian is it
cannot be in your spirit, thoughit can influence your soul
absolutely and affect your body,right and choices yeah right,
yes, yeah.
So what's the math?
To the degree that somethinginside of me, the math to the
degree that something inside ofme listens to that external
voice or influence, now we havean agreement, right, right.

(10:33):
Or biblically, now we have aspiritual amen Right Versus
curiosity.
And then there's agreement, andthen, on the far end of the
spectrum, you're going to havepossession Right, what we call
possession Pete.
Yeah, it's as easy as that,jared, right?
So what's the math For theChristian?
The number one place ofspiritual warfare.

(10:57):
When you look at Paul'sexhortation of putting on the
armor of light in Romans, hesays put off the deeds of
darkness and put on the armor oflight, off the deeds of
darkness and put on the armor oflight.
And he identifies all of thesedeeds of darkness as originating
inside the internal man.
So my job is to rule myself,right, yeah, right.
And if I rule me and crucifythe thing that's here that would

(11:23):
give ear to that external voice.
Then I become like when Jesussays the evil one comes and he
finds nothing in me, sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
Okay, when it comes to spiritual warfare in the
Christian, and then in conflict,in particular, if I'm, if I'm,
used to governing myself withthe gospel which you know, we,
we talked about before westarted today's show is, you

(11:55):
know, how does, how does thegospel apply to conflict in
these things?
If I'm governed by the gospelthe death, burial and
resurrection of Jesus for me,then I am regularly crucifying
self because they don't belongto me.
I belong to him, and thosecravings, desires, those

(12:17):
whimsical things that are partof my soul, my mind, will and
emotions that the devil appealsto, are governed, yeah, and
therefore he has nothing toappeal to.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay yeah so we have.
It's interesting because, likeyou know, there's been stuff
going on lately that you know mywife and I've been working
through and, um, when we were inthe new age years ago, there
was this term called spiritualego, right, where someone had
ascended to a certain level andhad taken on this sort of adept

(12:55):
nature and then lorded it overothers.
I don't think I would call itthat in the church, but I do
know there's a hierarchy.
Call it that in the church, butI do know there's a hierarchy.
However, I also know that whenthe flesh, the ego, tends to
want to, tends to manifest oneand sort of run the show and
that's not the holy spirit,absolutely right, so that's the

(13:18):
soul, right, as we were talkingabout.
You know, there's aninteresting correlation between
let me know if I'm pronouncingit right, but the word suki or
suke right Psyche, yep.
The English transliteration ispsyche, exactly, yep, and it
stands to reason, of course,that you know we would relate
the mind or the psyche to thesoul, right.

(13:39):
So there's a spiritualcomponent there too, which is
really interesting, but we'llget into that.
More Non-morphorial, exactly,component there too, which is
really interesting but won't getinto that.
Non-morphorial, exactly.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, metaphysical or somethinglike that, yeah, unseen, right,
exactly.
But within the psyche is theego, is the house, so it's like
the, the, it's the agent ofconsciousness, right, and so
that obviously comes to theforefront.
And this kind of thing, youknow, has with it a persona, the

(14:01):
masks we wear in socialsituations, and that persona can
be identified with and be puton a pedestal.
And then now we're sort ofputting ourselves above others.
Right Now, when this getsintertwined with a Holy
Spirit-indwelled Christian, youknow where, like, it gets really
kind of muddy, because now youhave someone who is indwelled

(14:26):
with the Holy Spirit, but notnecessarily living from that
place to where they are,remembering that they're also a
terrible sinner at all times youknow what I'm saying and
humbling themselves in that way,and that's.
I think we could relate it tothe spiritual ego.
But then that's caused a lot ofstrife and I've seen it cause
some strife within circles inthe church, and I think that

(14:46):
that's something to maybe talkabout a little bit is this kind
of spiritual ego I don't know ifwe would call it that here, but
I do know that it was a bigdeal in the New Age and it's
something that people would likereally notice, and if it wasn't
humbled and if it wasn'tstricken down, it would lead to
these things you're discussing,which is like this Now there's
another intelligence in charge,right, you've attracted another

(15:11):
intelligence, a principality ofsome kind or something higher in
the spirit realm, that wants apiece of whatever you've got
going on in the natural and it'sgoing to step in there and
guide you and empower you andcause you to take more and more
power from others, right, yeah,and so it leads down the wrong
path, but I do.
I, you know.

(15:31):
Like you said, I think thatit's it's rare with a christian.
However, there is some egothere for sure I don't know if
it's so much rare.

Speaker 4 (15:40):
So yeah, exactly, I was going to default to Terran.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
I mean rare in the sense that a demonic force would
take over.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
Yeah, so you wouldn't have spiritual, math-wise, you
wouldn't have possession.
But there's this place ofagreement and in that place of
agreement there can absolutelybe an overwhelming influence.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
But ego is certainly not rare.
Yeah, ego Not at all, not atall.

Speaker 4 (16:03):
It's very germane to humanity.
Before I even go there, I justwant to touch back on something
you said prior, man.
I think it was so apropos.
You spoke about ruling over sinin such a way so as to not have
the inconclusion being demonicpossession and or even
opposition, in such a way thatyou become a monster, for lack
of better words.

(16:23):
And as you were speaking, I wasremembering this text where God
himself tells, all the way backin Genesis, god says to Abel's
brother King, right, he's like,sin's desire is to rule over you
.
Right, and this could be saidof anybody, us included.
But then he says well, you mustrule over it.

(16:43):
And so, as you were talking, Iwas bought aware of the reality
that we're all responsible, likewe still live in this house
called a body right.
And in this body Paul says inRomans 9, there dwells no good
thing, that is to say the flesh.
More in particular, in thisnatural body in which we live or
inhabit, there's no good thing,and there's always sin

(17:05):
abounding, there's alwaysdesires and proclivities towards
sin, and we must proactivelyrule over it.
Now move forward to what you'resaying now with regards to pride
.
Pride is innate to humanity.
We all are very good at showingourselves better than that's
why social media is so popularat showing ourselves better than

(17:26):
that's why social media is sopopular.
On social media, people get toproject a kind of lifestyle that
they want everybody to foreseeright, even if it's not true,
and that's it kind ofexacerbates the natural sins and
prideful nature that, again,that's innate to everybody.
And what I love about thegospel in particular, in regards
to this topic at least, it isthe quintessential self-killer.

(17:48):
What I mean by that is thisJesus says anyone who would
follow after me must pick up hiscross, deny himself and follow
me.
So now, more germane to whatyou were saying, bro.
You were talking about, like um, you know, I forget how you
call it exactly.
Uh, and the new, the ego, right, yeah, in regards to that,

(18:10):
because there are somechristians who say the right
things because again they'reborn, again, they have spiritual
knowledge and all of this.
Uh, they say the right things,but they haven't necessarily
come to the conclusion and theiractions that testify of the
reality in which they're saying.
What I mean by that is Paulcomes to mind in a certain

(18:31):
passage in Corinthians.
He asks a question, a rhetoricalquestion.
He says what do you have thatwasn't given to you?
And then he follows up.
He says and if it was given toyou, why do you boast as if it
wasn't given to you?
Why do you boast as if itwasn't given to you?
Meaning, if you have knowledge,if you have any sort of gift or
anything specific about you thatpeople recognize as something

(18:52):
admirable or noble, he says inessence, you didn't contort
yourself in your mother's wombso as to get these qualities, or
you didn't do this in and ofyour own strength or own savvy.
These are gifts given to God.
And when that reality hits you,when that specific knowledge of
God's grace hits you, it's verymuch impossible for you to
simultaneously live a life ofpride and grace simultaneously.

(19:15):
One or two is going to takeprecedence.
Like Jesus said, no one couldserve two masters right.
Sooner or later, either you'regoing to disregard what Paul
says and the scripture says andbecome prideful, or you're going
to be so hit with the realityof grace in your life as a
sinner that you cannot help butbe humble.
And so, again, I say all thatto say the gospel is the number
one, or the quintessentialkiller of pride, and we must be

(19:37):
mastered by the gospel so as tohave these attributes lived in
us.
Otherwise we'll just be talking.
I'm convinced of that.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
So you're referring to, like the inborn skills,
characteristics, things thatbenefit.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
Everything, money, good looks, everything.
What do you have?
What do you have that wasn'tgiven to you?

Speaker 2 (19:56):
Right, and so these things?
Then you're taking captive over, instead of just being a
steward of them because theywere given to you, you're saying
these are mine, I did this, Iearned this, yes, yeah, you're
taking pride over Interesting.

Speaker 4 (20:08):
Yeah, correct, correct.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yep, I hear you, I like that.
Yeah, amen, yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
That's a way to humble, I think, to Terrence's
point.
And so the the except your sin,that makes your justice and
wrath permissible, or or right,right, and that's not even
something that he needs Like youknow, he, he wants you in spite

(20:36):
of yourself.
That's it, amen.
That's the life exchange thathe wants me, even that he wants
me, even though, in all, in allmath concerning justice, in, in
every in every way that justicecan be conceived of.
He shouldn't want me.
But he does right, and then hemakes me that which he loves he.

(20:58):
He conforms me into the imageof his son and and so you've got
this.
The old hymn said this twowonders here that I confess my
worth and my unworthiness.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
And so you've got two things that are true at the
same time.
I am the righteousness of Godin Christ, and yet Paul, on the
final days of his life, says Iam the chiefest of sinners.
Yes, now is the truth that hewas actually the worst sinner on
the face of the planet?
No, there were people who haddone things a million times
worse than he did.
However, his assessment ofhimself was I'm the chief of

(21:36):
sinners, and I think that that'sthe, the, the.
The dynamic that we see in rom,romans in particular, is this
contrast between the self andthe spirit.
Yeah, and the.
The biblical language would bethe old man versus the new man.
Sure, the new man, who's madein the image of Christ, versus

(22:00):
the old man, who is still in theimage of Adam.
Sure, yeah, and that fallen man, this propensity inside of me
that the scripture calls theflesh, and it's this thing that
is prone to self-seeking,self-aggrandizement, self, and
that's why we use the term self,right, yeah, self-ish,

(22:22):
self-full, full self.
Keep going, yeah yeah and thatrejection of self anything but
christ-centered, christful,christ conscious, and not christ
consciousness in the new agesense.
But but he is the one who ownsmy mind and and so I think on

(22:45):
the things above your attention.
Yeah, right, yeah, keeping mymind on that which is in heaven,
not on earth.
Yeah, colossians, I think threethe heavenly-minded man.
And the truth is, there's anold adage out there that says
you're so heavenly-minded thatyou're no earthly good.
But that's not right.

(23:05):
Actually it is only theheavenly minded man, that's any
earthly good, well said ifthey're viewing it properly.
I like it because jesus is theultimate heavenly minded man and
he's the only good that everhappened for the face of this
planet.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
And so those who are truly heavenly minded will be
insanely good for the planet inall ways, because the idea is
always the redemption and therecovery and the salvation and
the glory, betterment.
Yeah, that's right, and so Ithink what the nature is is, you
know, 1 Corinthians 15 saysthat, until we receive our new

(23:49):
bodies, as long as we are inthis physical thing called a
body, as long as I'm in thiscorpse, this body of death is
what Paul calls it in Romans 7,who will save me from this body
of death?
Is what Paul calls it in Romans7, who will save me from this
body of death?
As long as I'm in this thing, Iam in a corruptible state, not

(24:13):
always corrupted, butcorruptible, meaning at least
potentially corruptible, sure,corruptible.
So I must always maintain asense of vigilance against my
drift to weakness or my drift tothat or whatever it is In that

(24:35):
zone.
I'm weak and I must be aware ofthat weakness and I must be
honest with that weakness.
And and I think that, um, inour zone, for our church, we
emphasize victory and overcoming, yeah, okay, and I think people
forget that overcoming includesa battle.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Sure.

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yeah, and that the model for overcoming this?
David's going to ascend the arkof the covenant, yeah, to the
top of zion to get to get theark of the covenant to himself
in jerusalem, right where he'sheaded up, the the.
You know jerusalem's on a, on amountain top.
It's on a, it's on top of ahill, yeah, so wherever you go

(25:18):
to jerusalem, it's always let usascend to jerusalem.
And so he's bringing the ark ofthe covenant up and then he
gets to the threshing floor.
He's bringing the Ark of theCovenant up and then he gets to
the threshing floor, the placewhere the place of separation
yeah, okay, right, and they'refull-blown, having a worship
service on the way up.
They're dancing and they'repraising God and they're singing
and they're like and thepresence of God is with them.

(25:43):
The Ark of the Covenant, yeah,but they're out of order,
they're out of order.
They put the Ark on an ox cartand then it begins.
It gets to the threshing floorof Uzzah and Kedon.
Yep, now Uzzah's one of theguys, kedon is.
The threshing floor is titledtwo different things in two

(26:06):
different places, but it's, it's, uh, uh it.
It gets to the threshing floor.
The threshing floor is theplace of separation.
It's where you separate thewheat from the chaff.
Okay, so they get to the placeof separation and god in his
wisdom is saying okay, you can'tcome up any further until you
get rid of the mixture.
Yeah, you cannot come up anyfurther the way that you are.

(26:31):
I want you to come up, I wantmy presence with you, david, in
Jerusalem, but we're not goingup any further until this is
dealt with.
And the ox cart begins tostumble and it reaches out and
God kills them now.
Now, here's the crazy part 99.9of christians would give up

(26:53):
right there and turn around andwalk right back off that
mountain.
David didn't walk, didn't giveup, yeah, yeah.
He went back and he studied theword and this passage is
covered in two places uh samuel,second samuel and then second

(27:14):
samuel.
Yep chronicles oh, yeah, yeah,you're right.
Chronicles of kings, one of thetwo, yeah, um, and and.
And he clarifies, and onepassage will tell you certain
details and the other passagewill tell you other details.
And he says this the lord brokeout against us because we
didn't seek him according to theordinance that he had
established.
Okay, yeah wow, and he said itneeds to be carried by the

(27:35):
priests, not placed on a cartright, and it needs to be those
whom he picked to carry his,whom he picked to carry his
presence.
And then every six steps they goback they get the ark from obed
edom's house and they ascendthe rest of the way and every
six steps he's sacrificinganother ox, right, and so I

(27:59):
think the the math was like uh,3200 sacrifices or something
like that.
I got.
I got it written down somewhere.
I don't remember what it is,but you're you're talking about
an altar and a sacrifice, so alot of money and a lot of blood,
yeah, Blood and if you were toturn around once you got up into
Jerusalem and look down thatpath.
Oh yeah, bloody Blood.

(28:19):
Yeah yeah, and the math isJesus already did that for us.
So those sacrifices the rest ofthe way up, that's me.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
That's me.
Continually and continually,daily, that's me.

Speaker 4 (28:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's me.

Speaker 4 (28:34):
Yes, I think you hit it right on the head, man.
It's humility Again.
As you're saying, this I'mthinking of like a New Testament
counterpart, right, as we'retalking about implications of
humility in particular.
So you just talked about Uzzah,I think of Jesus in the New
Testament where he says if youhave an ought against your
brother, again the crux here ishumility.
He says don't come and makeyour sacrifice.

(28:55):
What do you do?
First you go to your brother,you humble yourself, you deal
with the issues at hand and thenyou come.
You see, there's this humilityAgain.
Going back to what we weretalking about with regard to
Christians can also produce thispride in us, even while knowing
the truth.
But God is so much about comingthe right way, making your

(29:17):
sacrifice the right way.
In essence, a word humility,meekness.
First, take care of the thingsyou need to take care of.
There's no falsehood with God.
He knows everything.
We can fool ourselves and Isuppose to some degree we can
fool each other too, but Godknows everything.
He knows the motives, thereason why we do what we do.
He knows everything, and sohe's very much concerned with

(29:40):
truth in the inward part, right,not only doing the right things
, the reasons why we're doingthe right thing, and so I love
this idea again of being trainedby the truth of God most again,
most particularly the gospel,which I think is the jewel of
all God's truth.
I think if you know this truth,it takes care of so much.

(30:04):
This is not to say that wewon't have struggles, but to
kind of go back again.
Jesse, you mentioned this,something you said about your
particular church.
You deal with, you know sin,but you deal with people being
honest.
I think that says a lot because, again, if your Christianity is
all look what I do, look what Idon't do, then quite frankly I

(30:25):
think you're a liar because weall fall short.
There's no one without sin, andone of the ways in which you
know you're growing a la Paulagain saying I'm the worst of
sinners is that, as you'rewalking in light, what do you
see revealed?
I guess the best way I couldexplain it is this Behind you is
a nice little table, the nicelittle window.
Suppose that blind were closedand it was darker in the room

(30:48):
and, for whatever reason, youdecided to go clean your table
and then you remove the blindsand you open and let the sun in.
What would you see on the table, you'd see dust.
Now, the light didn't createthe dust, it just reveals what
was already there.
And so, as you, light of Jesus,if you are so insane to assume
that you're still good, becauseat this point we're not

(31:13):
comparing ourselves to oneanother or Hitler or somebody
bad we're walking in his lightand therefore seeing our best,
our zenith, in light of hisperfection, and all you will see
is dust, so that you can saywith Paul, I am the worst of
sinners, not that person thereagain.
So that's producing humility,because no longer are you living
horizontally, judging yourselfby other sinners.
Now you're living vertically,walking with the Lord and saying
, on my best day, I'm not that.

(31:34):
And so, again, it produces thisnatural humility that I think
would squelch or help a lot ofthe situations in which we find
ourselves.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, and I do want to be careful.
You know, tadashi did a song.
I think it was Tadashi.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
Yeah, it was Tadashi, and it was him and John Piper.
A clip for John Piper and thesong is called Make War.

Speaker 4 (31:57):
I remember that song.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
It talks about.
We are so sin-focused thatwe're paralyzed.
We are so sin-focused thatwe're paralyzed, and so both

(32:19):
things are true that not only dowe deal with the presence of
sin, but we deal with the veryreal victory of the life in
Christ in victory over sin.
And so the righteous manstumbles seven times, but he
gets back up.
Yes, what we don't want to dois get so focused on the
stumbling that we don't get backup.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
And so the nature of the battle is that there is a
battle and there is a victory.
And I think of the scene inVoyage of the Dawn Treader with
CS Lewis and I think his name isEustace Grubb, the cousin of

(32:56):
the Pevensies and he comes andhe's just a straight dipstick
jerk, selfish, whiny brat likecomplete, just like you know,
throw him overboard and let thefish deal with him, kind of a

(33:16):
thing you know he's, he's, uh,he's, he's, he's funky, and uh,
in voyage of the dawn treader,he ends up coming away from the
ship, they're, they're on theouter islands, and he come, the
dawn treaders, the ship and he,they stop at an island and he,
he comes away from the group andhe finds a cave with a dragon

(33:38):
in it, with all kinds of gold.
And as he comes up to the dragon, he realizes that the dragon
has just died and and there'slike the last wisp of smoke from
its nostrils has just come out.
And and uh, and he, he finds a,a bracelet, a gold bracelet.
He puts it on and then he fallsasleep.

(33:59):
And then he wakes up and helooks in the water and he sees
the dragon, and and it's notdead anymore, and he freaks out
and he starts scurrying and,long story short, he's now
turned into the dragon andthere's this immense pain on his
wrist where, as a, as a youknow, nine or 10 year old boy,

(34:21):
had put this bracelet on.
And now he's this huge dragonand it's clamping down and it
hurts, and what he was on theinside is now apparent on the
outside is the wow, analogy,right?
cs lewis is good for this, sogood.
And then, um, and then he fliesback and he can't speak, and so

(34:43):
his crew is now attacking him,right, thinking we're being
attacked by a dragon, andsomehow they end up finding out
that it's him and he's cryingand he's weeping and he ends up
becoming friends with reepa,cheap the mouse, the, the
swashbuckling mouse, that that,uh, just a dear, lovable
character, one of the bestcharacters in the whole narnia

(35:05):
series, who was going to killthe kid, like earlier, for, for,
for, for, marring his honorover something.
I forgot what it was, but so,at any rate, they become the
best of friends and Eustace nowends up being able to be a
blessing because they're caughtin a place where there's no wind
and because he's a dragon, he,they, they hook him up with a

(35:26):
tow rope and he's able to towthe boat and he begins to change
and he begins to soften and um,and then he, he finds himself
on an island by himself.
He goes off, he's in the fogand he touches down on the
island and then here comes aslan, the christ figure, right, okay

(35:47):
, the lion, and he sinks hisclaws into his scales and begins
to shred his scales off of himand he says it was the most
searing, painful thing you couldthink of.
And aslan just rips him apart,rips the scales, rips him apart,
rips the scales.

(36:08):
But then, when he's done, hefeels a little freer, he's a
little, he can move a littleeasier.
But, lo and behold, there'sanother set of scales underneath
the first one, right.
And so Aslan sinks his claws inagain and begins to rip off.
And this happens a number oftimes.
And it's this image ofsanctification.

(36:30):
Sanctification, yeah, right,where Jesus ruthlessly deals
with our sin.
Mm-hmm, okay, but yet on theinside I'm born again, right.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:40):
Right, and then eventually he takes the boy and
he throws him into this waterand he comes out of the water
and he's a soft supple littleboy, great picture Wow.
Wow, right, yeah, and so wewant to be careful that we don't
develop an overly conscious sinconsciousness.

(37:03):
Yeah, we must have a greaterview of the forgiveness of God
than our view of sin.
If our view of sin is so largethat it trumps the greater
greatness of the forgiveness ofGod, then we drift into
self-introspection to the degreethat we're always depressed.
And suddenly, now the cross isnot enough for my own sin.

(37:29):
And now I'm locked in aninverted form of pride where my
own feelings about my sin loom,larger is me self self, self,
self, self, self self yeah.

(37:55):
And so both things are true.
Yeah, well, good distinction.
We must view our fallen personand our weakness and our places
where we're still growing insanctification as the chief of
sinners.
And yet also Paul calls thosein Corinth who are numbskulls

(38:16):
with their head up in placeswhere the sun don't shine,
saints.
What Right I am.
That juxtaposition and thatuncomfortable casting of the
nature of the Christian who'slocked in a corruptible body.

(38:38):
That tension is never resolvedin the New Testament.
Sure, yeah, both things must bemaintained.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Interesting, well said things must be maintained
Interesting.
Well said so, this is a journeywith the Holy.
Spirit is obviously, you know,very, very useful here in terms
of healing what's happened to usin the past and separating from
those things to the extent, tothe where we can actually treat
people right Because we're notacting from those unconscious
complexes that were born ofthose traumas right.
And so that brings up a pointin, you know, know again,

(39:08):
psychology being the study ofthe soul, I think it's apropos
at least for this discussion totalk about a little bit.
Uh, edward edinger was astudent of jung, right, and he,
he came up with this idea ofinflation, where the ego would
inflate to a degree, to where itwould have pride, and we can
actually call that biblicallypride.
Okay, sure, what you're sayinga moment ago is inflation can
happen in a number of ways, butone of the worst kinds of

(39:28):
inflation is victimhood.
And so I think that, when itcomes down to it is if drama in
the church is a symptom ofdisunity, a symptom of maybe
people's unconscious complexesrunning the show, running the

(39:49):
show them, not even realizingthat these things are in the
forefront and actually they'reharming or they're damaging
relationships with othersthrough the ways that they're
treating others.
However, maybe they have afeeling of superiority because
they've been a Christian for along time, they've read the
Bible, they can pray really wellall of these things right.
How do we contend with, perhaps, like myself, being a new
Christian only a couple years in?

(40:09):
How do we contend with likeseeing that stuff and that stuff
coming to the forefront, butbecause the person has an
authority over us, how do werectify that?
What do we do there?

Speaker 3 (40:23):
It's a good question.
Church hurt a couple ofepisodes back and one of the
things that a lot of people, um,they they forget is that God
picks flawed people.
David is called a man afterGod's own heart and then he full
blown commits adultery andmurder.
Like you know, I, I'm sure I'msure there's a lot of people out

(40:44):
there whose pastors have done alot of wrong things.
Um, a lot of people out therewhose pastors have done a lot of
wrong things, and Davidcommitted murder and adultery
and yet he was still the onethat got picked.
And that's not to say that we'reokay with abuse in the church.
We're not.
It's not to say that we need tohandle other people as forgiven

(41:13):
saints.
Yes, well said.
I think that the person who'struly rehearsing the gospel
regularly, living in the gospelregularly, it will produce a
gentleness in us that whensomeone else sins, that we
handle them as forgiven sinnerswho have been made saints.

(41:37):
And if we're viewing it right,even in our positions of
authority, we never let that goto our head.
Yeah, yeah, we always remember.
But for grace, there go I, suchwere some of you, is paul's
statement.
You know, you weren't thewisest, you weren't the

(41:58):
prettiest, you weren't thematter of fact.
You're probably still not thewisest, and you're definitely
not the prettiest and yeah, godhas chosen um to second corinth,
put this glory in jars of clay,earthenware vessels, which are
fragile and crack easy.

(42:19):
Made of mud, made of mud.
And the reason why is so thathe gets all the glory.
Yeah, no macabos, yeah Amen.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Why it's so that he gets all the glory Right, yeah,
no, macabos, yeah, amen.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
And so I think, if we're being owned by the gospel
regularly and it is you know,we're rehearsing the truth of it
is no longer I who live, butChrist who lives in me In the
life I live, in the flesh.
I live by the faith of the Sonof God, that he increases.
I decrease, and the less I canmake of myself the better.

Speaker 4 (42:52):
Yeah, yes yes yeah that's the math.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
That's the math for sure the more, I decrease yeah
right and when it, when it comesto a place where I have to pull
the authority card, yeah, I'mdoing it in such a way that I'm
handling somebody else as onewho's been handled kindly
Galatians 6.1,.
I'm going to go ahead and I'mgoing to read it because it is

(43:18):
very appropriate Brethren, ifanyone is caught in a trespass,
you, who are spiritual, restoresuch a one in a spirit of
gentleness.
Why Looking to yourself?
Why?
So that you too will not betempted, bear one another's

(43:40):
burdens and thereby fulfill thelaw of Christ.
Yeah, if anyone thinks he issomething when he is nothing, he
deceives himself.
Yeah, amen.
And so I think that one of thethings that Pastor Daniel does
and I personally had a seasonwhere I realized I didn't know

(44:04):
the gospel, even though I'd beento Bible college, I'd been a
pastor, I'd been paid staff, allof these things accepted into a
master's degree program, likeall the things where if someone
was like man, I didn'tunderstand the gospel, they'd be
like I'm sorry you said whatit's true, like I could tell you
what the word meant.
I could do that stuff, but itwasn't until I was a part of a

(44:26):
ministry on the East Coastcalled Sovereign Grace
Ministries, where their emphasison the death and resurrection
well, their emphasis on thedeath, which is common in the
evangelical world, is they'rereally, really, really good at
getting to the cross and really,really, really bad at getting
to the resurrection.
That's only part of the gospelRight the cross is just the

(44:47):
first part of the gospel.
The cross is not good newsunless you have the resurrection
.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
Terrible news.
Right yeah, the cross is whatyou deserve.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
And the resurrection is what he gives you.
Right, yeah.
And so that's the fullness ofthe good news is the cross and
the resurrection.
It is the cross and the emptytomb.
Yeah, yeah, the cross and theempty tomb.
So I didn't know that and, intothat zone, god began to deal
with me and work through me andshow me the importance of these

(45:18):
things.
And the gospel applies toeverything in your life.
And I began to learn.
How does the gospel apply to medriving my car?
How does the gospel apply to meplaying video games?
How does the gospel apply to meplaying video games?
How does the gospel apply to myweight?
How does the gospel apply to mein the way that I treat my wife
or my children?
All of these things.

(45:40):
And Daniel was with me, walkingthrough this stuff with me,
walking through this stuff withme.
And he was because I wasexperiencing it, because of the
nature of the relationshipbetween me and pastor Daniel,
who, like one of my closestfriends, totally, um, who I
discipled, uh, he's now walkingthrough the gospel too and

(46:03):
learning the gospel, and one ofthe things that he developed was
this in conflict.
The first thing that I do is Iask myself what do I deserve?
Yep, yep, what do I deserve?
Yep, I deserve the wrath of God.
So, no matter what happens inthis conflict, I'm doing better

(46:25):
than I deserve right now.
Right, 100%.
And even if this conflict goescompletely wrong and and I'm not
wrong in any of it, but it goescompletely wrong for me I'm
still doing better than Ideserve worst case scenario
pales in comparison to the wrathof 100.
Yeah yep, and so he starts withwhat I deserve.

(46:49):
The second is what have I beenshown?
Sure, and it's grace and mercy,yeah.
Therefore, I should approachconflict from this position of a
forgiven sinner who is beingmade into a saint in the image
of christ and gentleness and andfully understanding that god is

(47:14):
sovereign and if I'm in themiddle of conflict, he's using
it.
Yeah, yeah, and because wellsaid he is 100, omnipotent,
omnipresent, omniscient.
He is 100%, omnipotent,omnipresent, omniscient.
He is 100% working on me in theconflict and the other person

(47:37):
at the same time and hisattention is not divided.
Yeah, because he cannot bedivided Right cannot be divided
Right.
And so in all parties,especially in the church, god is
working for the sanctificationof me, of them, of of everything
.
Yeah, and I need to trust himAbsolutely.

(47:59):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
So if there's, if there's drama in the church and
you see that there's aperpetrator, I'm just realizing,
as you were talking, that youknow my recognition of a
perpetrator is me taking offense, is me taking it personally?

Speaker 3 (48:15):
in a sense can be, if I take it too far if you allow
it to be personal, than it is,because there is such a thing as
correction.
Sure, okay, we do need tocorrect Sure.
So just acknowledging, okay,there is an offender is not in
and of itself wrong.
It's when we then begin to moveinto jury and executioner, yeah

(48:41):
, that we move, we go wrong.
Problems?
Yeah Right.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
So, and just for you know, and aside, this is a I'm
treating this as a hypotheticalthing, but I think it's
important because there is there.
It is a archetypal sort ofcomplex that I think a lot of
people would experience in achurch, right.
When there's drama, any socialsituation, any, any, you know,
there are these complexes thatarise to the surface and then
there's the belittlement ofothers or the drama that ensues

(49:08):
because of these things thatcome out in groups.
We're social beings, right,yeah, but when you apply the
gospel to these experiences,it's showing me clearly that,
you know, I have a tendency toif I am attached to a situation
socially and love it and rate itvery highly in my priorities of
what I'm giving my attention tolike church, right, I want to

(49:31):
attend and come from a space ofhumility, but also show up
because Jesus wants me there,right.
So it's important for me to bea part of the church.
But if there's a social dynamicthere that is distasteful to me
, that is perhaps dramatic, thenit's going to really take a lot
of my attention and I feel asthough perhaps becoming offended

(49:53):
is something that maybe I needto repent for too.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
Yes, absolutely so.
In offense, there's a couple ofthings that need to happen.
The first thing is am I thecorrector or am I not?
And if I'm not the one calledto correct and a lot of people
think that because you'reoffended, that automatically
means that you need to correctthat's not true, amen.

(50:19):
Yeah, there's a thing in thescripture called forbearance.
Right yeah, and forbearancemeans that you recognize the sin
, you let it land and you paythe price and say nothing.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Thank you for saying that that's a great definition
of forbearance.
It's one of the gifts of thespirit right.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Patience is another way to put it.

Speaker 4 (50:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
The forbearance gives you more of an isn't just,
isn't just standard patiencelike waiting at a stoplight,
right, okay, forbearance is inthe context of suffering yeah,
that's right, managing yourself100, where you know like the the

(51:03):
least of these, my brethrenmatthew, 25.
Yeah, yeah, these are the hardpeople to love, yet they're
still the people of God.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
Right, they're still sheep, even though they stink
and they bite and they bleed andthey complain and they drift,
and they do.
I sound like I'm talking fromexperience.

Speaker 4 (51:35):
And even if they weren't sheep, even if they were
enemies of the cross, like westill recall.
I think, to the degree weunderstand the gospel and to the
degree we believe the gospel,all of the implications of it is
how we will grow, is how wewill grow.
What I mean to say is, asyou're talking, I'm remembering
Paul.
He gives a verse that I thinkis not so typical in church,
unfortunately.
He says, in the context ofpeople robbing each other and
having to go to court.
He said you failed.
He said wouldn't it be betterthat you were wronged?
Like, in essence, he's sayingjust take the L, don't go to

(51:57):
court before unbelievers.
Take the L.
Take the L, and this supposes,though, that you understand
something of the gospel and thepreciousness of it and the
importance of it more inparticular.
That's just to say God's gloryis more important than our
creaturely happiness.
So take the L, because that'sgoing to glorify God more.
But who really does that inthis world or in this church, in

(52:19):
our churches?
No one does that, unless theyunderstand the importance of the
gospel, the practical nature ofhow it handles all of life
situation, and, again, to thedegree you believe it is the
degree in which you'll grow likeyour, your, in other words,
your growth and your maturitylevel is predicated on how much

(52:40):
you actually believe the truthof the gospel.
Do you believe that you are asinner?
It's easy to say words.
We all say we all deserve hell,we are, we're getting better
than we deserve.
But do you believe that whensomething actually occurs to you
, when, when somebody is doingyou wrong, are you going to have
that same energy?
You will If you actuallybelieve what you're saying, you
believe the importance of thegospel, the practical nature of

(53:01):
it, the realities of it, and soyou'll be able long suffering
with people, you'll actuallyhave forbearance for people,
because the gospel has so got ahold into you as a person, as an
individual, you see yourself asthe gospel says.
You are namely an enemy of God,but forgiven, loved more than
you could even imagine.
To go back just a little bit,you talked about the necessity

(53:25):
not living in your sin so as toenjoy the gospel.
The same guy, paul, who said Iwas the chief of sinners,
rejoiced so much in the realityof his salvation that he lived
life of beatings, imprisonments.
He wrote one place like.
He quoted an Old Testament textand put it to himself.
He says I suffer all things forthe sake of the elect.

(53:46):
Anybody who's growing in thereality of the gospel ought to
be able to say in some degreesomething to that effect.
I know of a man he wrote thesong Amazing Grace.
He was a slave trader when hegot saved.
He says I know of two truths Iam the greatest sinner and yet
Christ is the greatest savior.
Which is to say, he lived inthe reality of the fact that he
was still loved even though hewas wretched.

(54:09):
And that ought to be ourreality, and when it is our
reality, we'll be able toforgive, we'll be able to be
patient, we'll be able to sufferloss, because at that point we
believe the gospel, and so Ialways stick with that.
We have to be mastered by thegospel what it actually says and
what it actually means by whatit says.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
I'm glad you said that too, because you know drama
in a social situation.
It's a rhetoric, right.
It requires a response.
There's an offender and anoffendee, and the offendee is
the one that can take it to thecross and kill it right where it
stands.
You know what I'm saying,because it really that rhetoric
is, breeds that that dynamic,and makes it stronger and makes

(54:50):
it a reality.
Honestly, however, if someoneis just offensive, then they're.
That's between them and god,but the people who are becoming
offended, right.
That's when it spreads into asocial context where it doesn't
need to necessarily.
So if everyone is essentiallyapplying the gospel, drama can't
survive that's right I'm gladyou said that.

(55:11):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Yeah, the gospel chokes out the oxygen of the
fire of offense right.

Speaker 4 (55:16):
Yeah, yeah and it would totally assuage what you
said earlier too, bro,concerning people with this um,
mindset of like what was me, howdid you put it?
Like this victim mentality,like again it goes back.
Do you believe, actually, doyou believe, that what they're
doing is no consequence or noteven worthy to be compared with
your offense against God?
Do you believe, to the degreeyou believe, that is how you're

(55:38):
going to handle a real lifesituation?

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Amen, amen.
You can't be offended bysomething someone else does.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
That's right, and the way that we've said it around
lighthouses it.
It shouldn't have happened, soit didn't yeah that's.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
I want to talk about that a little bit because I've I
heard that, I've heard that afew times and that's for me like
, okay, let's get into that abit, because I like that a lot
yeah, there's a, there's anobility in it and a a
forbearance in it and the the.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
You know, what do you ?
What do you do when somebodyfarts?
Yeah, like in in a room full ofpeople?
Yeah, are you the person whogoes out of their way to to be
ostentatious and loud and this,that and the and the next, or do

(56:28):
you just quietly cover?

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Yeah, cover their sin .

Speaker 3 (56:32):
And what is considered to be rude in that
social context.
And, as you know, just as anexample, you know or so, the the
.
The idea is that the there,there is a high road that you
can take yes yeah, and what alot of people don't realize is

(56:54):
in the nature of conflict.
Okay, the sooner you removeyourself from the equation, the
sooner the big issue becomes thebig issue and here's the big
issue.
They've got a problem with god.
Yes, yeah, right, they the the,the more you keep yourself

(57:17):
inside of that conflict.
I think we talked about this inmarriage counseling.
Absolutely, we did a big partof it when we we had the put out
the three that's right, yeah,100 yeah the the sooner you
remove yourself, because in theconflict the reality is in sin.
Zane sends against Jesse Zane'sgot a bigger problem than Jesse

(57:40):
.
Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
And the sooner Jesse removes himself by what we call
forgiveness, the sooner thebigger issue can be the bigger
issue, and that's the only placeZane's actually going to find
freedom anyway.

Speaker 4 (57:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Absolutely.
The more I remain active insideof the issue, the more that
person's looking at me andengaging me right and the best
thing I can do to serve them isto remove myself from the issue
in forgiveness and pray for themright yep, and point their eyes

(58:23):
back to the savior there you goamen there's been forgiven a
great debt.
Right amen that those who areforgiven a great debt is.
Luke chapter seven lovesforgiven much, loves much, those
who are forgiven much and lovemuch.
Forgiveness is easy, yes, yeah,yeah, it's those who do not

(58:44):
realize the greatness of theirforgiveness to whom forgiveness
of other people is hard right,yep, yep.
And so the sooner I removemyself from the equation, the
sooner the bigger issue canhappen.
And then I must sanitize my, my, my mind with this, my emotions
.
With this dude, nobody evergets away with anything.

(59:05):
Yeah, yeah.
The final analysis 100.
Yeah, it's either going to bepaid for in the cross right
which if at that point.
I demand some sense of justice.
I'm looking at god and sayingyour cross is good enough for me
, but it's not good enough forthem.
Holy smokes, no good, or yeah,it's going to be paid for

(59:29):
eternally under the wrath of god, in separation from god.
And what in the world do I havethat can ever compare to that?
Nothing yeah, we've got nothingyeah, yeah leave room for the
wrath of god.
Do not take revenge vengeance.
Yeah, lords right.
Leave room for the wrath of god.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Do not take revenge.
Vengeance of the.

Speaker 4 (59:48):
Lord Leave room for the wrath of God.
That's another aspect.
I fear that we don't reallydevelop in church.
Amongst believers it seemsarchaic.
Nobody really talks about hellanymore.
But I think in light of gracegrace only is good news in light
of the reality of God's wrathRight.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
And, I think, people who get it.
There's a guy there his name isStephen, in Acts.
He's being stoned to death andI imagine that hurts.
God didn't supernaturally savehim from pain.
He was bleeding as his stoneswas cutting his face and various
parts of his body, and all hecould think about as he's dying
is the reality of God's wraththat's going to come upon the
earth.
And so he says what Jesus sayson the cross do not let this sin

(01:00:32):
be held against them.
Wow, that supposes two thingsyou believe the wrath of God and
you understand the nature ofgrace, apart from these
realities.
Again, this is why the gospelmust master us.
The gospel teaches us about thewrath of God, all the
attributes of God, but mostnotably the juxtaposition of his
wrath and grace.
And then again, if you get that, if you don't believe that, I

(01:00:52):
suppose you can, you know,philosophize about all the
things we're talking about.
But if you believe it, it'llproduce the fruits of which
we're talking the patience, thelove, the long suffering, et
cetera.
Not to say anybody growsperfectly in this life.
We all fall short.
But these fruits will beevident, predicated on your
belief about it.
It's just just gonna happen,yeah they know not what they do

(01:01:13):
yeah, yeah, because they don'troach

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
they don't yeah right yeah and so, yeah, I think that
, like, the natural response tobeing offended by someone right
and someone perpetrating somesort of ill upon you is to set
them straight.
You know what I mean?
And what are you doing?
you're amplifying a smallconflict into a big one by
creating a cycle of violence orwhatever it might demanding

(01:01:36):
justice yeah right, that's notour job at all and in fact, the
more we talk about this, thedirtier I feel, forever being
offended by anyone me too, bythe way, what a sinner I am.

Speaker 4 (01:01:48):
But I think the idea of covering sin.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
It was a very complex one for me and still is.
I'm still working through it,trying to understand that fully,
and I know there's obviously afew places in the New Testament
where I believe one involvesChrist where he is actually.
He makes an example of whatcovering sin actually is and I

(01:02:16):
don't help me with this, I can't.
I think they involved three men.
I'm trying to, I'm trying toremember the story exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:02:22):
A woman, maybe Caught in adultery, could be.
He spoke about that earlier.
He was without and cast thefirst stone.
Could be something like that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Yeah for sure, but anyway, covering sin.
Let's talk a bit about that andjust like the mechanics of that
.

Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
So I think that if you cover sin personally against
yourself, okay, that deals withthe issue against you and
that's a noble thing.
And that's a noble thingbecause he who forgives sin it
is the glory of a man tooverlook a matter is what
Proverbs says.
As a matter of fact, I thinkit's the glory of a king to

(01:02:57):
overlook a matter.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
Same thing, same kind of words.
Yeah, the duty of a man toconceal.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
That's right, and remembering that their God is
very clear that in the end,everything hidden will be
uncovered, and if there needs tobe a rending of justice or a

(01:03:26):
rendering of justice, is thatthe greatest demonstration of
love is the forgiveness ofsinners.
God so loved the world, he gaveHis only begotten Son that gave
language, which iscross-language.
Not that we first loved Him,but he first loved us and sent
His Son to die for us to be theperpetuation of our sins, to

(01:03:48):
satisfy His own wrath.

Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
Like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
God in one moment demonstrates the greatest moment
of love and satisfies thegreatest requirement of justice
in His own wrath, in the oneperson and work of Jesus in the
cross and resurrection in thegospel yeah, that's good of
Jesus.
And the cross and resurrectionand the gospel yeah.
So the magnification of thegospel and the glory of God will

(01:04:13):
always trump anything else, yep.
And when we understand that youknow I told the story about
Coda before that you know you'renot going to play football and
the Lord's like you're going tolet him play.
And I'm like what Right?
And God tells me like I see,dude, he shows me my kid the
night before, bro, in a vision,and I see him like sitting there

(01:04:36):
cutting deals with God.
Let me play, god, just let meplay.

Speaker 4 (01:04:39):
I promise I'll never do it again.

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
And the Lord goes you're going to let him.
It's not because he asked me,it's because I'm good and I
think that that demonstration oflove, while we were yet sinners
at our worst, god dies for us,that there is no greater
demonstration of love in thatmoment that when you absolutely

(01:05:06):
should judge, you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
And you show grace, and you show mercy and it wins
love.
He was forgiven.
Much loves much right and itawakens this thing inside of me
of of uh gratefulness andpassion and zeal, and and every
like I'm, I'm owned by the onewho forgave me, even though he
shouldn't have.
And that makes it easy to bearwith other things.

Speaker 4 (01:05:33):
Offenses.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
Simple obedience.
I want to read the Bible, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
It makes me see too that handling a situation,
handling someone the way Godwould handle me, glorifies him
Correct.
Yes, yes, yes, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
And edifies the person who's being helped too.
I want to say this really quick.
I think we would all agree onthis, but for the sake of the
listeners, I do want to say thiswe're all championing the
necessity of love andoverlooking offenses for the
sake of God's glory.
That's primary.
But there are times in which wehave to judge and do a hard
thing.
There are major sins in thechurch.

(01:06:11):
There are major sins occurringand people are being taken
advantage of and it's not lovingfor us to just sweep it under
the rug and pretend it didn'texist.
We must deal with some things.
Rave, abuse, these things must.
In fact, it is loving for us tobring this to light and take
care of it and do what the Biblesays to do like bring it to the
open.
So we're arguing for contexthere.

(01:06:31):
Please hear us in the contextin which we're speaking.
Personal offenses, like littleoffenses somebody says a bad
thing or took some money orsomething like that, it's no big
deal, You're not going to loseyour life.
Rape abuse, any of the sort.
Murder, all these things.
Child abuse, yeah, whatever.
Bring that to the forefront,because that would be the loving
thing to do and God would wantus to do that as well.

(01:06:53):
So again, context, context.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
And it wraps back around to this perennial virtue
of discernment that we talkabout so often, yes, yes, that
discernment of okay, what's theoffense.
Let me pray about this.
Should I turn this person?
Should I talk about this?

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
what should I do next ?

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
yes, it makes me think of, like the man who
steals bread to feed his family.
I see him steal the bread.
Yep, now, this is a man-madelaw.
This guy needs to, you know,feed his family.
Lord, what do I do here?
You know what I'm saying yeah,yeah obviously that's a small
offense, but you're talkingabout major offenses.
That would be easy to say okay,I definitely gotta tell someone
about that one absolutely yeahbut I think, when it comes down
to the interpersonal stuff,that's when it gets a little bit

(01:07:32):
trickier, and so again thatthat virtue of just continually
praying yeah, not everythingthat comes up, I think is is
where this all rests.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
And then and then, you're called to be a corrector,
I think, is the the.
So, when the offense comes, thefirst question is okay, am I
the one called to correct this,to deal with this?
If I'm not, I'm at least calledto pray for the person.
Yeah, well said, at leastcalled to intercede the
forbearer to cover.
Okay, if I'm the one called tocorrect Galatians 6.1, I need to

(01:08:03):
do so as one who's beenforgiven.
Correct, yeah, and you knowit's probably best that you
don't have one instance of acorrection like it.
It is better if, if you waitand observe, because everybody
has an off day yeah, everybody's.
You know we can be jerks, youknow right, and you just don't

(01:08:26):
know what's happening.
Look for a pattern, look for aweakness that is indicative of a
regular issue, because we allget one-offs.

Speaker 4 (01:08:41):
Yeah, that's a good point when you do so.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
You correct, as one who's been there too, correct
with an offering.
Offering, not a judgment, heyman.
Um, so I want to talk aboutthis.
This is what happened.
Can you tell me about that?
Yeah, because you never knowwhat was happening in them.
Totally yeah, and maybe they're.
Maybe in that moment they'relike, yeah, I was, I was a jerk

(01:09:05):
bro, and I'm so sorry.
And then you're done.
Yep, praise God, you're done.
Yeah, and you don't even haveto be like you offended me.

Speaker 4 (01:09:15):
Yeah, all good, it's done yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Give it to them as an offering and let them judge it
Sure, and if the Spirit of theLord is there, you'll know
immediately, because if theylook at it and they judge it the
right way, then you haveconfession, yeah.
And there's mercy and there'sgrace.
I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:37):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
That's really good.
Well, if they defend, you'renot the one to correct.
Sure, no, because God's notworking that in them at that
moment.
Right, there you go.
And I've had both where I'vesat down with someone and I've
laid out.
You know, we got six months ofexamples.
Tell me about this, sheesh.
And the person is like, okay,yeah, I was self-centered, I'm

(01:10:01):
seeking to control, I'm fearful,I'm this, that the next, and it
was a glorious reconciliationmoment and I didn't have to
judge anything.
Right, they judged it.
And I've had moments where I'vesat down and I've laid it out
and the other person obviouslyis not in the place to receive

(01:10:23):
because all they do is defendthemselves.
Yes, and at that moment, now I,I know, okay, my, I am
obviously not the collector?
yep, because, if it was thespirit, would be, would be doing
that, and my job now, at thispoint, is to forbear, to absorb
the cost personally to myself,by which God says in Peter if

(01:10:46):
you suffer unjustly like that,gets favor with God.
Yeah, he's paying attention,he's not aloof or not paying
attention.

Speaker 2 (01:10:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
It's very clear If you suffer for doing wrong
that's your fault.
Yeah, it's your fault.
You shouldn't expect it.
But if you suffer unjustly,that's your fault.
Yeah, that's your fault.
You shouldn't expect it.
But if you suffer unjustly, itsays that that gains.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Yeah, yeah, amen Amen .
Blessed are those who persecute, yeah, you think, think of Job,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:13):
Yeah, right, jesus, a hundred percent Right, yeah,
yeah.
The essential example, yeah,the, the number one example of a
good person suffering is christ, sure yeah because there's no
such thing as a good personaside from him, right?
Yeah, so, um so I think thoseare some practical things uh,
it's really good really good um

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
go ahead, can I ask you?
And then you're bringing thesethings to folks.
Is this obviously after you'veprayed, but is this were you?
Did you find that, as a pastor,it was important to bring these
things to the forefront?
this was before I had the titleof pastor gotcha okay, so this
was something that was prayedabout and you were like okay and
then spirit, give me thecourage even to do this, because

(01:11:58):
I think that, like a lot ofthat, that's what comes up for
me is, like you know, say thisdoes happen and say something.
Say I am offended, and it's abig one.
It would be difficult for me tobring it to the person.
You know what I mean and thereason I say that is because
I've had it a lot in, you know,family dynamics and in my past
with with friends and thingslike this, where I've been

(01:12:18):
offended by someone and theydidn't even realize they did it.
It was completely unconsciousto them.
So what's cool about thisapproach is that you get to
mirror back to them their ownactions.
Yeah, ask them honestly did youeven realize you said this or
did this right?
yeah, almost without assumingyou might not say it that way,
but it's.
That's exactly what you'redoing, is you're placing it back
into their awareness?

(01:12:38):
To say this was this happened.
Yep, what do you think of this?

Speaker 3 (01:12:42):
Yeah, tell me what was happening.
I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
I love that too, because it's a quintessential
proof of the fruit of love.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13,love does not assume the wrong
right and so you come and you'reyeah, yeah, exactly, you got it
.
And so there's that reality,like okay, I'm offended, I have
feelings, I hurt, I'm not arobot, I feel these things.
But I'm not going to jump toconclusions, I'm going to give

(01:13:05):
them the benefit of the doubt,which is beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
And assume that it was unconscious in doing it.

Speaker 4 (01:13:10):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
I like taking that approach because I don't know.
I don't want to just thinkright away that someone meant to
do something.
You know what I mean thatsomeone meant to do something
that you know what I mean.
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah,that's good, yeah, and we, you
know we operate on those twolevels, conscious, we do a lot
of stuff without realizing we'redoing.
It's right.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
You know what I mean yep and um, I think it's yeah,
we can full work unconscious allthe time yeah in the uh in the
corridors of the heart, yes, in,in, in the, the, in the far
reaches and corners of thisplace, and that place inside the
heart.
Motive for the same actionbetween people can vary, yeah

(01:13:49):
there you go.
It can completely vary.
It often does.
Yeah, obviously, and you'retrusting the spirit to to do the
work that he does and that's tobring conviction and to shine
the light and to be gracious andcomforting and all of those
things, and and what's theultimate goal?

(01:14:11):
The ultimate goal is is topoint him back to jesus.
He's the only one that can save, he's the savior, he's.
You know, we're not gurus,we're not.
There's one mediator betweenGod and man the man.
Amen.

Speaker 4 (01:14:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
And so the point is to, as a pardoned sinner, to
help the other person find thesame grace and mercy that I've
found, same grace and mercy thatI've found, and, and and.

Speaker 4 (01:14:47):
in that place I actually get to rejoice in the
fact that they find forgivenessand mercy.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Yes, yes, yes even though I'm the one that it
happened against yep, becausehe's magnified in that.
Yeah right, yeah.
Romans 9 says that he bears withpatience for wrath so that he
can demonstrate his grace onvessels prepared for forgiveness
.
Yeah, there's this wholedynamic where you know the, the

(01:15:13):
way we say it is god gets moreglory from a sinner who becomes
a saint, or an enemy who becomesa friend, or a hater of god who
becomes a lover of god.
Then he does for one whosmolders in hell under the wrath
of god.
100 percent, 100 percent getsglory from that.
Sure, yeah, there is a gloryfor him in the magnification of

(01:15:33):
his justice.
Yeah, indeed yeah, but there isa, a, a neener, neener, win,
pointing at the devil yes, 100%.
And winning the heart of theperson who was just like I hated
you.

Speaker 4 (01:15:47):
Yeah, putting him to open, shame.

Speaker 3 (01:15:49):
Well said 100%.
I am willing to lay down mylife for you because you laid
down your life for me.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
Right, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:15:57):
Right, and that demonstration of love is greater
than those.
So there is a varying degree ofthe glory of God.
So we get to participate inthat.
We get to be, even if we'resinned, against a part of the
story of someone who's in sinfinding forgiveness, which is a

(01:16:18):
glorious thing.
So, sanitizing it with that,let's talk about unity real
quick.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3 (01:16:28):
Presently, right now, the next very clear, prophetic
thing on the eschatologicaltimetable that we should be
looking to see.
There's a lot of things thatwe're looking to see, but there
are some generic things that arehappening, but then there are
some very specific things thatwe don't know exactly where they

(01:16:50):
fit, and then there are somethat we're like, yeah, we know,
we know that that one's got tohappen, and got to happen quick.
And the first is the, what wecall the great apostasy, the
falling away of the church.
Apostasy, the right way thechurch, and it is a, a division
of the church and people who areum.
Apostasis is the, the, where weget the term apostasy from, and

(01:17:15):
it means to stand away from.
I was here identified in thisposition at one point in time,
and now I'm no longer in thisposition or in that place.
I now am standing away fromthat over there, and so this,
this division thing, a man'senemies will be those of his own
household.
Yes, this, this attempt of theenemy.

(01:17:37):
Like we were talking before we,we started recording the what
does god say of those at thetower of babel?

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
yes, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:47):
Essentially they're trying to to force their way
back into heaven.
According to the, the, the uhtargums, I think and um, the,
the commentary on what washappening in um in nimrod's mind
.
Yeah, yeah, in genesis 11, withtower of abel event guy leading
the whole thing, I'm gonnabreak back into heaven so that

(01:18:10):
if god floods the earth again,he can't kill me.
And this, this, this, you knowtower, it was a temple.
It's gonna be so high that ifhe floods the world again, it
won't be able to overcome thetemple.
Okay, so this?
is this is, at least to theJewish mind, what was happening.
So God comes down.
Why is God going to be angry ata big tower?
I mean, we've got big ones inSan Francisco, we've got big

(01:18:34):
towers.
So what's happening?
There's more there than justthe big tower.
What does he say than just thebig tower?
What does he say?
Because they're one, nothingthat they put their mind to will
be withheld from them, right,because they're unified, right,
nothing will be impossible forthem, right?

(01:18:55):
So, in order to shut them down,he divides them and he confuses
their language.
Down, he divides them and heconfuses their language.
We see a direct recovery of thaton the day of Pentecost, the

(01:19:17):
table of nations, genesis 10,right before the division at
Babel.
All of those same people groupsare represented in Acts,
chapter two.
And now the language is united?
Absolutely it is.
And a lot of people think thatthat the tongues in that moment
are, are earthly languages, butthe pronouns in, in or the, the,
the pronouns and the tense inthe Greek don't allow that

(01:19:38):
actually.
Yeah, they hear in their owntongue.
Yeah, but what's being spokenis one speech got it.
Yeah, okay, that the guy fromrussia hears in russia and the
guy from china here isn'tmandarin.
The guy from india here's andyou know punjabi or hindi or
whatever, okay, and they'reamazed.

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
But it's a heavenly language is being spoken.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
It is and half of the people are like they're drunk.
You ever hear a drunk personbabble?
yeah, yeah so they hear this andthey're amazed.
Well, now god has unified theirpurpose and their language
again and we see this explosionjesus, judaea, samaria, even
under the ends of the earth.

(01:20:16):
What jesus told them in theprevious chapter, acts 1, verse
8, that is the roadmap for theentire rest of the book of Acts.
Right and the very last word inthe book of Acts, the gospel
continued unhinderedly is thisadverb, which unhinderedly is
not a word in English yeah, butit connotes it's still going

(01:20:41):
from like there's no Perpetuity,that's right.
There's no close to the book ofActs Love it.
That's what that last wordimplies.

Speaker 1 (01:20:49):
Right when we're at now, where we're at now.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
And so if I were the devil, he knows Jesus' statement
a kingdom divided againstitself cannot stand, a house
divided against itself cannotstand.
A house divided against itselfwill fall.
And so getting Christians tofocus on each other and the

(01:21:13):
things that they don't likeabout each other, or the
nitpicking things, and again toTerrence's point, there are
things that matter, there areabsolutely things that matter.
Sure, there are absolutelythings that matter.
Right, got to address those.
But the things that don'tmatter Don't matter, you know
for real.
Like here's a good one.
Pastor, didn't shake my handtoday or give me a hug today.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:38):
That's so dumb.
That is so dumb Right, thesekinds so dumb Right, these kinds
of things.
Yeah, or let, let's.
Let's say there's, there'sactual like there's a difference
between weakness and sin.

Speaker 1 (01:21:52):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:21:52):
Dave, dave, not Harvey Sinners.
Say I do, oh yeah, from from,from sovereign grace.
Um, he he gives this example inhis book center say I do.
Where he goes to the mall andhe loses his cell phone and him

(01:22:13):
and his family take like threehours searching every store,
every nook, every cranny, can'tfind it.
They get back to the house hiscell phone is sitting on the
table right there.
He wasn't in sin, just weakness, right, he forgot.
That's all interesting.
How do we deal with thosethings?

(01:22:35):
Right, if it doesn't matter,don't let it matter, right yeah.
Because the devil is seeking todivide Right by enemies.
Necessary 100% Right and to thedegree that you can keep
yourself ruled and governed bythe gospel, to where, when Jesus
says the enemy comes, the rulerof this world comes and he

(01:22:58):
finds nothing in me.
You make yourself bulletproofyeah, yeah, that's right and we
need bulletproof relationshipsright especially with what's
coming on the face of the planet.
Right, yeah, like I, we, we needto be able to not have to worry
about you.
Know, jesse, I need you on thatwall over there on on the 50.

(01:23:20):
I don't feel like being on the50 Cal today.
It hurts my hands when I'm onthe 50 Cal.
Shut up On the 50 Cal, or yourbrothers and sisters next to you
are going to die.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's building a church inBabylon, sure.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:41):
And there's no such thing as a church that Jesus
builds that isn't at the gatesof hell.
Right, yeah, it will always belife and death for the church
that Jesus builds, right.

Speaker 4 (01:23:52):
Yeah, if the church is alive, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
Prioritize unity in the body right.
Prioritize it in your own heart, in your own approach.
It in your own heart and yourown, your own approach, and, I
think, managing your perceptionof the things that are offending
you by applying the gospel iswhat I'm getting from this.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
This is what we do, right, because taking it any
further than that is creatingthis.
You're now creating thedisharmony.

Speaker 3 (01:24:18):
Yeah, I think the additional element that I would
add is the element of mission,because and I tell folks this in
marriage counseling, like, look, if you know you're with who
you're supposed to be with,divorce is never an option,
never, well said why?

(01:24:39):
Because you, you know themission and the mission hasn't
changed and it doesn't.
God knew they were going to actthat way.
God knew they.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
They were going to say the thing it's all so small
when you look at it all too eventhe big things totally exactly
when you zoom out, even the bigthings like you guys know me and
my relationship with my wife.

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
Yeah, right, it's not a small thing, right.
And why am I still married?
Because I have sinned worseagainst Jesus and he never
leaves me.
Yeah, that's why, that's why Iknow my children are not an

(01:25:23):
accident.
Yeah amen.

Speaker 1 (01:25:23):
I know my children are not an accident.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
Yeah amen, I know my babies are not an accident.
Right, that's a life of faithman well said glory to god, and
the, the mission hasn't changed,nothing's changed.
He hasn't.
He hasn't changed his mind.
He didn't give me a new one,like, okay, so unity and purpose
is what really roots it.

(01:25:46):
And then unity in the gospel,the, the, the, the, the mission
of jesus and then the personalwork of jesus are where we find
unity.
And you know, unity doesn'tmean uniformity.
There's a variance in it.
There you go, we're not allAgent Smith.
Yeah.

(01:26:06):
You do a thing, I do a thing andworking all that out is we're
bumping along, sometimes likemen without eyes trying to find
a hole in the wall, and it's thereason why hearing the voice of
God is so important.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Yeah, and we all have egos too.

Speaker 3 (01:26:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:26:26):
Especially as men.

Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
A strong ego, one that is cleansed and sanctified
and purified.
These are very useful things tothe Lord.
Yeah, 100% we're very, verypowerful people when we have the
Holy Spirit indwelling andwe're on mission for the Lord,
and I think that that'ssomething to remember.
You know, it's not ego bad likethe East says right, it's like

(01:26:47):
we want to step up for the Lord,you know what I mean.
Yes, yes, Sometimes that meanswe step on other people's toes,
but hopefully that person canbring it to us or pray about it
whatever it takes.
So I really appreciate this.
Guys, this has been wonderfultoday.
You guys have any closingthoughts?
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:27:00):
I want to ask you a question real quick, man.
I think it's in step with whatwe're talking about.
If I were to ask each of youwhat would you say is the
greatest act of faith that theChristian could exhibit, what
would you say, my answer wouldbe Revelation 12, 11.
Love's not as life even whenfaced with death.

(01:27:22):
What would your answer be, zane?

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
The greatest act of faith yeah, I think that would
be it to the martyring.
The martyring would be thepinnacle.

Speaker 3 (01:27:33):
I would say your special relationship to the
throne.

Speaker 2 (01:27:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:27:39):
I think you're right, because I'm changing my answer
now, but I think what we'resaying is from coming from.
I think I'm coming from adifferent end end of the
spectrum there, but it connectshere's.
What I would say is to actuallyknow yourself.
Who you desire to be in thelord versus who you really are,
and to believe what he saidabout you in the bible, in the
gospel, that he loves you with alove that's never going to

(01:27:59):
change and that that's reallytough, especially when you fall,
and because when you do realizethat, you get a glimpse of that
, you do love, not your life tothe end.
So I think we're saying the samething.
But I say all that and I askthat to say this when you get a
glimpse of God's love for you inthe gospel, everything that
we're talking about connects.
These are not abstract thoughtsor things that we just

(01:28:28):
philosophize about.
These are real life, practical.
This is the reality of theChristian who's growing in grace
, when you realize who you are,who you want to be and really
who you still are this short.
You're married, zane.
You know you're not perfect.
Your wife knows, our kids knowwe're not perfect.
I want to be much better than Iam.
I've seen growth, for sure, andI still suck in so many ways.
And yet this perfect God whohates sin he really hates.
He doesn't just say well, youknow boys will be boys, girls

(01:28:49):
will be girls.
He absolutely abhors sin.
Yet he loves us with the sameexact love he loves the son.
I know that from John 17,.
Jesus says show them that youlove them as much as you love me
, which is crazy words.
I can't even fathom that, but Ibelieve it because it says it
in the Bible.
And once we get that, once thattakes root upon our hearts,

(01:29:21):
everything we're talking aboutloving people, not becoming
victims of our own circumstancesor whether it's just or not
becomes small potato, and thenunity in the body becomes
absolutely essential, becausethey're our brothers and, at the
end of the day, they're moreour brothers and sisters than
our actual physical brothers andsisters.
And I say that loving mybrothers and sisters.
I would go to hell for them, Ibelieve, but my brothers in the
faith, they're going to be mybrothers and sisters for all
eternity and they're the onesthat we need to lay our lives

(01:29:42):
down for.

Speaker 2 (01:29:42):
So yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because as an
early Christian as well, youknow that's been paramount for
me is just remembering the Lord.
The Lord's got me and he'sslowly revealing a new identity
in me, and I have to be faithfulthat that's happening.
So thank you for that, and thatis so apropos to our discussion
today.
So thank you, terrence.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
That was awesome, and I got one thing to close with,
and it's this, I think in a lotof conversations concerning
faith and such, that people theychalk it up to what do you
believe?
And the word believe and theword faith in the Greek they're
the same thing pistis and thevariance.
And we see it in English and wesee see faith, and then we say

(01:30:21):
believe and we think thatthey're different and they're
not.
It's the same thing and faithworks.
We are not saved by works, butwe are saved by a faith that
results in works.
Yeah, the reality of what youactually believe is seen in what
you do, and one of the largestcomponents that's left out of

(01:30:42):
the conversation concerningfaith is what we call
faithfulness.
Yeah, and the right way to putit is this loyalty.
Loyalty.
If you are faithful, you'reloyal.
Yeah, and that's the love, notyour life, even faced with death

(01:31:03):
.
I'm right I'm not going to denyhim right yes he's I am my
beloved and my beloved is my.
My beloved is mine solomon yeahand right, and so that that
expression of loyalty is firstthis way and then this way also.
Yeah, and too often we sell outour brothers and our sisters

(01:31:29):
for the stupidest things.
Gossip is a way of selling outyour brother and your sister.
You know um seclusion, orgiving somebody the cold
shoulder or separation.
That's a way of selling outyour loyalty.
Holding the grudge, that'sright.
You are now operating in aplace of lack of loyalty.
In Ephesians 6, when it saysthe belt of truth, okay, when

(01:31:55):
you look at the Old Testamentcitation of that in Isaiah, it's
not the belt of truth,propositional truth, it's the
belt of faithfulness.
It is the belt that is built onthe quality of one who is true
in their character right.

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
What you see is faithful and they're always
faithful.

Speaker 3 (01:32:17):
Yeah, and so the belt of truth is not this
propositional.
This is what's accurate.
The belt of truth is the beltof one who is faithful and
therefore they are a true person.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
Yeah, make sense Amen .

Speaker 3 (01:32:33):
And so I would encourage everybody.
But loyalty is going to be ahuge thing, especially as the
end comes closer and closer andcloser be a huge thing,
especially as the end comescloser and closer and closer.
And our brothers across theworld, our sisters across the
world, they get this yeahbecause they're persecuted yeah,
they got to stick together,they get loyalty as their person
.
They don't have time to debatenonsense.
Yeah, no true you hear storiesin the, the underground church

(01:32:56):
in china new converts.
They don't get to stand watchwow because they they have to
stand watch you you cannot.
It is illegal to have agathering that isn't sanctioned
by the state, right?
So you cannot have a churchunless the state has told you
you can have a church.
And they'll only allow you todo that if you preach what they
tell you to preach.
And you gotta say wow right,wow.

(01:33:18):
And so those who are in theseunderground churches, they
they're out in these secludedvillages or whatever and you got
to put people and watch.
Yeah, here come the police, gotell the church they gotta
disperse, yeah, and they willnot have a new convert to watch
because if they get capturedthey don't know if they're going

(01:33:38):
to give up everybody else andnow.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):
Yeah, that's right, they don't know their loyalty
yet.
Yeah, yeah, give up everybodyelse.
Yeah, that's right, they don'tknow their loyalty yet.
Yeah, loyalty lies yet, that'sright.
Yeah, and it's untested.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:47):
Wow.
And so in these moments,especially here in the West,
okay, we live in this littlebubble where what we experience
is not the experience ofChristians globally True, yeah,
experience is not the experienceof.
Christians globally.
True, yeah, you know.
Just news recently, 200slaughtered 200 Christians in a

(01:34:07):
village somewhere in Africa.
Okay, I'm just like, oh,publicly being crucified in
Syria because they're ChristiansCrucified 2025.
Wow, right, this is is guys,this is recent, like this is our
little bubble here in the westis gonna pop sooner or later and

(01:34:30):
the way that you develoployalty for those moments is now
is in these little moments.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
That's right yeah it In these little moments.

Speaker 2 (01:34:40):
Right, right, love it , wow.
It brings the whole thing intoa real, a real good context and
it closes it up nicely becausewe are, we do have the privilege
of being in the West right now,and it's a better time.
It's no better time to actuallybuild unity right now.
That's right so yeah, smallstuff, go, take it to the Lord,
be done with it.

Speaker 3 (01:34:59):
Be bold man.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
Yeah, thank you brothers.
Yeah, as usual, exhilaratingconversation.

Speaker 3 (01:35:04):
Amen, glad I came, glad you came too Good to see
Terrence this week.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
You guys are awesome, man.
Yeah, man, it's so much fun todo and just want to thank the
listeners and the viewers.

Speaker 1 (01:35:14):
Man, you guys are just you guys really make this
worth it wonderful commentsabout people.

Speaker 4 (01:35:18):
Yes, we have.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
And people being just moved by the episodes and the
things we've been discussing.
So again, please, please, stayup on the comments.
Drop any topics in there You'dlike us to touch on anything
like that and any questions.
We'll love getting questions toyou know these, these guys can
handle pretty much anything youthrow at them, so let's let's
get it going.

(01:35:39):
Share pretty much anything youthrow at them.
So let's, let's get it going.
Yeah, exactly, and sharetestimonies for sure.
But again, thank you guys somuch.
You guys really really makethis this important to us and
continue to do regularly is tokeep getting new stuff out so
that y'all can be touched bythese things, cause you know we
wouldn't know if you were or notif you weren't commenting.
So continue to please.
So thank you guys so much forthe support and thank you,

(01:36:02):
brothers, for being here andjust, you know, really you know
helping me, see clearly, youknow this walk.
You know I really reallyappreciate you guys um likewise
love you I don't love you too Ilove you guys man to make it
about myself, but again, beingan early christian, it's like
you guys really, you know lighta fire in me, so so thank you
guys, and it's.
I've just really enjoyed doingthis.
So, anyway, you guys gotanything else?

(01:36:24):
No, god bless you guys.
Oh, god bless you guys, godbless the viewers, god bless the
listeners, god bless youbrothers.
And blood and oil out.

Speaker 1 (01:36:35):
Blood and oil podcast is filmed and recorded by
pastor Jesse and Zane inCalifornia with Terrence, on
video call from the East Coast.
We thank our supporters andplease be reminded to use your
own discernment, as the viewsand opinions expressed by the
hosts and guests may not reflectthose of other people,

(01:36:56):
institutions or organizations.
A variety of guests will joinus as we discuss modern events
through a biblical lens, sobuckle up and enjoy the ride.
Thanks to all of our supporters, and praise God for the
opportunity to serve him in thisway.
We hope you have enjoyed thisepisode and pray for blessings

(01:37:16):
upon your day.
You.

All Episodes

Unity in the Body | Healing Church Divisions

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Unity in the Body | Healing Church Divisions