Returning guest Thomas Hall from Blue Jays Nation joins us to talk about the Blue Jays turn around season from 2024 and continue to be consistent. We talked about how surprised the season has gone, how much did they improve after the trade deadline, how important is Shane Bieber to the Blue Jays, the rotational depth, any concerns with Hoffman, how good is the bullpen, the remaining schedule the rest of the way, Shapiro's contract expiring after this season and the where the front office stands, and many more!
Where you can find Thomas Hall:
- X:@Hall_Thomas_
- X: @thejaysnation
- X:@dynessports
- X:@BlueJaysWU
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:30):
Welcome to another edition of the Blue Jays Ave.
Podcast. We have a returning guest in
here today and he was in episode8 of this podcast.
Thomas Hall, welcome back. Just remind everyone what you do
when everything else. Yeah, thanks for having me back
on, guys. It's, it's certainly a different
(00:52):
tone as to, to when we last spoke about this team.
But yeah, I'm everything Blue Jays from from writing to
reporting to doing hits like this on podcasts or radio
appearances. Most like, I'd say probably 95%
of the content I make is, is about the Blue Jays here.
(01:13):
So definitely, definitely thrilled to be able to to come
back on with you guys again. Yeah, man, it's awesome to have
you back. It's definitely a different tone
since the last time we talked. It's, you know, the, the the
Blue Jays have just, you know, completely turned their season
around and everything's going right.
And it's a great time to have you on.
(01:35):
It's a great time to be a Jays fan.
So let's get into it. Alright, so last time you were
here, it was episode 8 like likeI said, and we didn't know what
this team was because there wereso many question Marks and you
know, a lot of people thought that this team needed another
bat. Their picture was OK, but some
(01:56):
of the relievers were played better than expected.
And you know, they started off with guys like Jacob Barnes and
Richard Lovelady, but now 120 games into.
My goodness. Richard Lovelady.
Jacob Barnes. So we have come along, grillers.
(02:17):
Chad Green, Yeah. Chad Green, too.
Yeah. Eric Swanson.
There's a whole great guys. Yeah.
So now we're like pretty much 2/3 into the season, maybe
beyond that, 120 games in. And if you had to ask yourself
here, the Jays would be the second best team in baseball,
(02:40):
the first team in the AL to to reach 7070 wins.
And being in first place, the way things are going, in your
mind, what would you have said to yourself if the Blue Jays
were were were they at right now?
You know, I, I would say look like everything must have
(03:02):
clicked for this team and you goback over these last several
months and and it hasn't in manydifferent ways.
And I think if you were to have told me this in April, I would
have also said how is Vladdy? How is Beau doing?
Are they the ones predictably carrying the way?
And over the last month or so, they have certainly been
(03:25):
stepping it up and and leading this offence.
But one of the bigger surprises of this season is just how much
the Blue Jays have been able to maximize their entire 26 man
roster between from the the 13 position players that they've
had, the 13 pitchers. Like they are maximizing every
(03:45):
bit of value that they've gottenout of every single spot on the
roster. And not something that when you
look back at 2024 and even the previous seasons, that's
something that the Blue Jays really didn't do all that well.
I remember back in in 2023 and 2022 where that 13th position
(04:07):
player spot on the roster was basically just a throwaway one
for the Blue Jays. They would just bring somebody
up, have them sit on the bench for three games consecutively
and, you know, maybe play once twice a week, come off the bench
a little bit like barely being used in that type of spot.
And then you compare to what they've been able to do this
(04:30):
year. And, and just from a lineup
perspective, how much they have used every single spot on the
bench, maximizing the the platoon advantage like they
have. It's been really fun to watch
and it's been quite an enjoymentfor for all of us who have been
able to to follow along for the ride.
(04:52):
Blue Jays had an interesting trade deadline.
They acquired quite a bit of talent and they I think they
made 4 trades when all was said and done.
So how? How well did Ross Atkins do at
this deadline? And how much of improvement have
the Jays made acquiring talent? Yeah, I think they did really
(05:14):
well under the circumstances. Like it was an extreme sellers
market this year more than we saw in previous years under this
playoff format where you have the through wild card scenes or
seeds, that makes it a lot easier for teams on the bubble
to still think they are realistically in it when they
(05:37):
shouldn't be. And so prices this year were
just astronomical for impact players.
And Despite that, the Blue Jays were able to go out and upgrade
the ceiling of their roster, specifically on the pitching
side, where you solidify the bullpen with addings or anything
(05:58):
need Dominguez and Louis Varland, you're able to take a a
high risk, high reward type of move on Shane Bieber, which so
far through two rehab starts at AAA is looking like a a pretty
safe bet early on. So we'll see how that plays out
once he actually gets up to the major leagues and and joins the
(06:19):
Blue Jays rotation. But overall, like given what
they had to give up, who they they received as well in those
deals, I think they did extremely well on that front and
even tie France. Like he's not somebody that is
probably going to give you a tonof power, even though he has hit
(06:40):
for a lot of extra base power since joining the Blue Jays.
Like that's a spot where I thinkmaybe they could have aimed a
little bit higher. But when you look at the guys
who were actually out there on the market, the Blue Jays still
did OK with going out and getting a low cost bat in Thai
France, somebody that can hit well against left-handed
(07:02):
pitching and play multiple positions.
So, you know, it's not the worstpickup in the world.
But when Anthony Santander is out of the lineup and who knows
what his return timeline will be?
Personally, I would have liked to see the Blue Jays that a
little bit more power to the middle of their lineup, but I
think that just came down to a lack of supply rather than a
(07:25):
lack of aggressiveness from the Blue Jays.
You know, it's so funny that we talked, I think 2 days are a day
before the trade deadline. And we were just talking.
And then I saw your report aboutthe Jays being interested in
Mike Soroka. And it was interesting to see
that given the fact that he did have a better second-half.
But boy, you saw what happened with the Cubs and it's it's been
(07:49):
backfiring for them. And I think another guy that I
know you were intrigued about it.
I think a lot of Jays fans wanted what's Redeemers.
And he has like, I think 4 yearsof control.
And it's so funny you say that because like you look at
Varland, I think he has six years including this year.
And then you have Redeemers who has four or five years.
So it's like, did you think thatthe Blue Jays were aiming at a
(08:11):
guy who had longevity of controlfor relief?
Louis Varland trade surprised the hell out of me.
I did not think they were going to pull off that type of move.
I really wasn't even sure. I don't think anyone really
thought the Twins were gonna sell as much as they did.
And credit for the Blue Jays to really strike while the iron was
(08:35):
hot where the the Twins were just absolutely tearing down and
taking advantage of the sellers market.
And so for the Blue Jays to quote and add a young,
controllable, nasty, high leverage reliever to the core of
their bullpen like that, to me, I think, you know, outside of
the Bieber trade was probably their best move leading up to
(08:57):
the trade deadline. Because that's going to have an
immense impact not only not onlyon their bullpen for this
season, but for future ones as well.
And at a price that you can affordably pay too.
So I want to talk a bit about Shane Bieber here because he
seemed like he was the best available starting pitcher
(09:17):
acquired at the trade deadline and you saw the market for
starting pitching. It was ridiculous.
You could see it was the fact like you know the way starting
pitching guys were available with control like all Contras
and Edward Cabrera asking priceswere like you, they were asking
for your top prospect or your top 2 prospects or both.
(09:41):
So looking at Shane Bieber and you mentioned about his rehab
starts, where does he fit in this rotation once he's back?
I think he'll be back next week,but like, how important will he
be down the stretch and perhaps in the playoffs?
Yeah, I mean it's a really interesting question because the
(10:02):
way he has pitched so far at AAAmakes you think that he can
still be a front of the line starter.
And for the Blue Jays, they currently have 5 healthy
starters, right? And so there's all this talk
about whether or not the team will go to a six man rotation.
And I think that's probably ultimately what they will end up
(10:23):
doing with the off days coming up later this month on the 21st
and the 28th, let alone the the off days that they have in early
September. It's going to make for an
awkward fit, but if the rest of the Blue Jays rotation is OK
with getting extra rest and and having, you know, this weird
(10:43):
funky starting schedule for a little bit, maybe once, twice
through the rotation, I think it'll be worthwhile.
I think that will help them bridge the gap to September when
it will be more feasible to run with A6 starter six man rotation
for a longer stretch because then you're not running 1
(11:04):
reliever short in the bullpen with rosters expansion.
So we'll see what ends up happening.
But the value that you or the potential that you have with
Bieber is if he is back to who he was pre Tommy John, that's
somebody you can slot in as potentially one of your, you
know, game one, game two playoffstarters.
(11:28):
Yeah, this is a great segue to the question I want to bring up
about the depth of this rotation.
You know, last night during the game, they were panicked to the
dugout and you just saw the the the row of experience that this
Blue Jays rotation has now, and that was with Jose Berrios on
the mount. So it's like, how is the depth
(11:51):
of this rotation now looking at heading towards the playoffs?
Yeah, it's true. It's changed drastically.
Like, um, again, to to compare where this team was, where this
rotation was back in April when we spoke.
Like it's so much deeper now than it was.
Like, it's crazy that, you know,potentially whatever ends up
(12:13):
happening with Alec Minola, but the Blue Jays could potentially
get to a point where they have 7.
There's seven Major League starters deep, which did not
seem feasible at any point earlier this season.
But the way Max Scherzer and Eric Lauer have really come into
form here over these last several weeks have been really
(12:35):
impressive. And it puts the Blue Jays in a
great spot where they have the luxury of being able to go to a
six man rotation if they want to.
It's not their only option, of course.
They could. They could bring Bieber up and
have him be a spot starter for afew turns.
Or they could have Eric Lauer potentially piggyback Scherzer
(13:00):
or Bieber. Or have Bieber in that type of
role. Or use some phantom ill stints
to to give guys a few weeks of rest before the the stretch run
to September. But I think the Blue Jays, in
terms of their starting rotationare in a great spot right now.
Now like they, they still need to have guys perform up to
(13:22):
expectations too. And that's certainly been a a
little bit of an underrated concern here lately with this
rotation. But in terms of the depth that
they have, it's hard to complainwhere they're at right now.
Who would you say is The X Factor for this rotation?
(13:44):
Because we look at the ups and downs of this team.
Barrios, he did what he had to. I think he had a 38 pitch inning
yesterday, game one against the Cubs and and he's still grinded
it out. And you know, there was some
moments, you know, thinking thatthere was, you know, couple
years ago, you know, the whole fiasco about pulling him in 1/4
(14:04):
when he was pitching really wellin Minnesota.
That's one example. And then you have Chris Bassett.
There is something about Chris Bassett that he cannot pitch on
the road for some damn reason. I don't know if it's a mental
aspect or if it's the fact that he just can't handle the hostile
environment playing, the playingon the road, but he pitches
phenomenally at home. Scherzer has been has been great
(14:28):
as of late. I think the most important part
is his stump has been intact andthere hasn't been any issues
ever since. He's been pitching well once
again, I think that's so important.
And then you got the gauze and then the Biebers and Eric Lauer,
who's been a great find one of those Astrada type of stories or
(14:48):
Jay Happ type of stories or or Robbie Ray type of stories that
has happened and all thanks to Pete Walker.
Like who would you say would be the biggest X Factor of this
rotation moving forward? Yeah, I think it's definitely
Bieber. Like I as somebody who's a, a
former Cy Young winner, the potential that he has as a
(15:08):
former ace like it it's to me, it's clear cut that it's Shane
Bieber. And if he can get back to that
level, it changes the dynamic ofthis entire rotation down the
stretch and into October, where it will take a lot of pressure
off guys like Barrios and Gausman to be your frontline
starters, to be the horses of this rotation.
(15:32):
Where if Bieber comes back and he is that number one guy and
and you know, we have to give him a little bit of a leash here
too because he is coming off of such a significant layoff
because of Tommy John. But if these starts over the
next couple of weeks allow him to round back into form by the
time late September, early October hits, then it
(15:57):
immediately slots the Blue Jays into one of those teams that you
don't want to face in October because of the type of arms that
they can roll out at you in a best of five series.
Hopefully not best of three. But even then, if Bieber is back
to that ace level pitcher, having him start game one
potentially certainly would helptilt things in the Blue Jays
(16:21):
favor. Let's talk about the bullpen a
little bit and like the the struggles that Jeff Hoffman is
gonna go on. He's struggled for the better
part of, you know, a month and ahalf.
And are there any concerns with him down the stretch potentially
in that closers role? I don't think so.
(16:42):
Like obviously Sundays outing against the Dodgers was, was
very concerning, but when you when you look at the fact that
he didn't pitch for a week and prior to that outing he hadn't
issued a single walk in eight consecutive outings, I don't
(17:03):
think he is in any danger of losing his closers job anytime
soon. I think we also have to remember
how much how how high of a workload that he has had to
endure this season too. So it is very possible that he
is facing some sort of level of fatigue right now too.
As much rest as he did get priorto that outing against the
(17:26):
Dodgers. This is still somebody that is
operating as a full time closer for the first time in his
career. So navigating this stage of the
season is still something that he's learning to do.
And I think it would obviously help if he had somebody like
Jimmy Garcia in the bullpen withhim to help shoulder this weight
(17:47):
that he has at the back end of the bullpen.
But unfortunately, it's been a injury plague season for Jimmy
and hopefully he's able to come back sometime soon.
I know we're, we're still waiting to get any sort of
update from John Schneider aboutany follow up news regarding
Jimmy after he had a cortisone injection, I think like two or
(18:09):
three weeks ago. Um, but I think Hoffman is, is
somebody that's like we saw earlier this season when he's
on, he is one of the better closers in all baseball just in
terms of the amount of swing andmyths that he can add to the
Blue Jays bullpen. And so, you know, I, I think the
Blue Jays are probably just going to stick with them here.
(18:31):
Like he has been their guy all season.
So I don't see any sort of indication that the Blue Jays
would would pivot away from that, at least for now.
Yeah, I think it's important youchange that because now we're,
well, like we're we're we're pretty much in the last stretch
of the season now. If you think about six weeks
left, seven weeks I believe. So you gotta ride with the guy
(18:55):
that you've been depending on all year.
So I I see where you're coming from.
But the next question I want to ask you here.
Let's dive deep into this bullpen because you we talked
earlier how it started with the bullpen, right?
And certain guys came off to good starts.
And now you look at a whole different landscape of what this
(19:16):
bullpen is now, right? You look at the Brandon Littles,
who's been great for the Jays. You have your Yariel Rodriguez,
who's been excellent throughout the most part of the season.
And and then of course you got you got the Brayden Fishers,
who's been a another find and soon and so forth.
And we could pray to both bullpen.
But if you look at this team like in high leverage
(19:39):
situations, like I know we talked about Hoffman and let's
just say if it gets to a point when Hoffman gets an off day,
who would who would fill in thatclosure spot?
Would you go with Rodriguez? Would you go with Varlin?
Would you go with Sir Anthony Dominguez or somewhere to the
point like you have to face the the three best hitters before
you get to hospital or or or even in between, who would you
(20:02):
go with? So I think it would depend on
matchups for me, right and, and who's pitching well or the the
the best at that certain time. I think Yariel Rodriguez has
earned a lot of trust from the Blue Jays coaching staff and,
and rightly so, the the way he has performed since emerging as
(20:22):
a high leverage option has just been excellent.
And so I think he's somebody that would certainly probably
receive a lot of consideration to to pitch in a safe situation.
If Hoffman was unavailable, I think Sir Anthony Dominguez has
the experience that you could put him in that type of role,
but you also run the risk of having him give you the full Sir
(20:47):
Anthony Dominguez experience where he he's capable of of
giving you a lot of swing and miss and and, you know, dialing
it up on the radar gun. But he is susceptible to losing
the strike zone and and giving up home runs.
So that would give me a little bit of pause.
But I think Louis Varland is a rising star in this pen and he's
(21:07):
somebody that I could foresee becoming a future closer one
day. And with Jeff Hoffman in the
Blue Jays bullpen, that day is probably not going to come
anytime soon. But he is somebody that I would
trust against anybody. I mean, with his arsenal, he's
able to get righties and leftiesout and the Blue Jays have have
(21:29):
basically gotten him down to be a two pitch pitcher, even though
he has still a starters arsenal.He's mostly now just a fastball
knuckle curve guy, similar to the type of adjustments that
they made with Brendan Little once he joined the organization.
And you know, between all of those guys, even Brendan
Fischer, like he's somebody thatI would trust in a certain safe
(21:53):
situation if the matchups lined up well for him.
So I think they have a lot of options that they could go to.
And obviously if Jimmy Garcia eventually comes back, then he
would be another arm that they could thrust into that type of
situation if they needed to. On Monday, the Blue Jays
promoted top pitching prospect Trea Savage to AAA, which kind
(22:17):
of puts him in line for a for a call up when the season, when
the minor league season ends or maybe even sooner.
So do you think that there's a chance that that happens if he
pitches well in in in Buffalo inthe coming weeks?
Yeah, I think so. I think it's definitely more
realistic than it ever has been at any point this season.
(22:39):
The like the Blue Jays have essentially been game planning
for this potential outcome wherethey wanted to ensure that he
had some gas left in the tank tohelp the Bigley club if a need
arose. And so that like that's still
the key part. Like one, yes, like Trace Savage
actually has to pitch well, AAA Buffalo and show that he can
(23:01):
handle this next level of competition facing more advanced
hitters that he then he has faced at previous levels.
But you also got to have the right position open up for him
at the Major League level. And I think one spot that would
make a ton of sense for him is being a multi inning reliever
(23:21):
out of the bullpen, just to givehim a taste of what life is like
at the Major League level. And when you look at this Blue
Jays bullpen too, they don't have a traditional long man in
their pen either, somebody who could eat multiple innings for
them if they were being if they were blowing out a team or or
getting blown out by another team.
(23:43):
You know, we, we saw that over the weekend in Los Angeles where
if the Blue Jays are in a situation like that, they
basically have to run through their entire bullpen just to
cover those innings. And so if Trey Savage can do
that, could do that for them that now, then that one, that
would give him valuable experience, but two, it also be
helping the team in a big way aswell.
(24:04):
So maybe that's one scenario that we could see him in.
Maybe he comes up and and is used as a spot starter too.
That's always possible as well. Um, when I one idea I floated
around to in an article I wrote earlier this week is that, you
know, maybe the Blue Jays even consider putting him in a high
(24:26):
leverage type of role to just get him in an environment where
he can just empty the tank across an inning or two.
Have his his nasty over the top fastball play up from mid 90s to
9899. It would allow him to basically
(24:48):
eliminate his curveball and justfocus on that fastball, his
slider and his splitter and see what type of results you get out
of him there. You don't want to throw too much
at him too quickly, but for a guy that has the type of stuff
and talent that he does, it gives you a lot of options to
consider if you're the Blue Jays.
(25:10):
Once you Savage proves that, he is ready for the next test.
You know, it's so funny that yousay that because like, he's he's
the top pitching prospect in thejury system as it stands, right?
And reminds me a bit of if you remember during the COVID year
when Shay Mcclanahan didn't pitch during the regular season
(25:32):
and it was only 60 games and they let him pitch in the
playoffs and they didn't even start his service type.
Could you see that similarity? Because obviously he has to be
on the 40 man roster before before September 1st.
And I wonder if they do that andtry to manipulate a service
time. Yeah, it would be a little tough
(25:55):
to do just because of the the roster crunch that you'd be
facing there. You'd have to be very sure if
you're going to make that type of move that you Savage would be
ready for the postseason. And I'm not necessarily sure
that they would need him in thattype of role just because you
can eliminate some guys from therotation.
(26:17):
Like, for example, you could have Eric Lauer moved to the
bullpen and cover innings for you there if you wanted to.
So I don't know if the Blue Jayswould be able to pull off that
type of example, but it is certainly it gets the juices
flowing thinking about him coming out in October and making
his debut in A Shame in Mcclanahan type of.
(26:39):
Way. So the next question I want to
ask you, it's the offence and this is something we've been
talking about the last couple ofyears.
And if you look at the way the offence is going, it's
definitely improved this year compared to definitely compared
to last year and perhaps a year before, right?
And how deep is this offence andhow much credit would you give
(27:03):
to guys like Lou and Nettie and Hunter Mens and definitely David
Popkins who came from the Twins organization?
How much credit do you give those guys?
A ton. They have completely changed not
only the the depth and the talent of this this lineup, but
they have helped reestablish thetype of culture and identity
(27:26):
that the Blue Jays lacked in previous seasons on the
offensive side of things. And so they deserve a ton of
credit for what they have been able to accomplish this season.
Like the Blue Jays don't enjoy this type of offensive
resurgence without those additions to the coaching staff.
You know, like you just think like I, I think back to spring
(27:47):
training and just the adjustments that they started to
make with Addison Barger and David Schneider and basically
undoing the, you know, the the mishandling of their swing pass
and, and, and mechanical adjustments that they were, you
know, advised to do, but not necessarily helping them at the
(28:09):
plates bomb from Don Mattingly and and Gilmer Martinez, who who
led the offence for a couple of seasons before this year.
And so, you know, they they desert, they certainly are the I
guess the the the silent heroes because they're, you know,
they're obviously not the ones at the front of this group, you
(28:35):
know, getting a lot of the attention most nights, at least
most times. So, you know, the way they have
been able to not only with the younger guys, but like the
resurgence of the resurgent seasons that George Springer and
Alejandro Kirk have had to like the work that the hitting
department has done with those guys too, has just been so
(28:56):
remarkable to watch. And even, you know, getting
Bouchet and Vladimir Greer junior at the levels that they
have been right now. I mean, since July 6th, the
those have been two of the most valuable players in all of
baseball. So definitely the changes that
the Blue Jays made last winter to their hitting department and
(29:18):
coaching staff have have laid the foundation for what has
played out this year. Funny you mentioned George
Springer because today he was just cleared from concussion
protocol and will start rehab rehab games in the coming days.
Once he's back, though, who do you think is going to be the odd
(29:40):
man out here? Yeah, that's certainly gonna be
a tough decision for the Blue Jays to make.
You know, the the easy one of course, earlier or yesterday was
was DFA Buddy Kennedy so AndreasJimenez could rejoin the active
roster. But I think, you know, we'll,
we'll see when Springer is readyto return.
(30:02):
I believe he's going to start a rehab assignment tomorrow with
AAA Buffalo. And depending how that goes,
they may give him another game on Friday before he comes back
potentially on the weekend against the Rangers.
But when that does happen, we'llsee.
I mean, I don't think they're going to be cutting ties with Ty
(30:23):
France at this point, who doesn't have any option minor
league options. And you know, as well as Joey
Loperfido has played, he is a guy who has minor league options
left, same with David Schneider.I could see the Blue Jays
optioning one of those two guys down to AAA Buffalo for a couple
of weeks and then bringing them right back up when rosters
(30:46):
expand in September. Because otherwise, you're
potentially looking at DFA and Ty France or Miles Straw.
And you know, Miles Straw, even though he doesn't have the type
of, you know, sexy offensive stats, at least on the season,
he's still somebody that has really gelled extremely well
(31:07):
with this Blue Jays team, especially in the clubhouse and
what he has given you defensively.
I don't think the Blue Jays wanna cut ties with him right
now. He's probably not somebody that
makes their playoff roster. But I think when you're looking
at the depth that the Blue Jays will need over these last month,
month and a half, I think keeping Miles Straw part of this
(31:31):
roster is something the Blue Jays will probably go with.
And unfortunately, that will likely come at the cost of
optioning either Joey Loperfido or David Schneider.
Seems like this team has a good problem right now when it comes
to offence that I can't recall ayear when the Blue Jays had
this, maybe maybe the 1516 years.
Perhaps it's it's relatively deep.
(31:53):
But the next question I want to talk about is the catcher
tandem. And you know, it seems like when
Kirk got its extension, Vlad gotits etcetera.
It seems like everything has calmed down.
The storm has quieted and every it seems like the chemistry is
up to sink. Like the this clubhouse is a
tight knit group. Like I haven't seen a clubhouse
(32:14):
like this in quite some time. You know, playing free minded
baseball and playing winning baseball.
But Kirk being the guy and he's back.
He's back to being a top three, top five kitchen in sport.
But the guy that hasn't been talked about is Tyler Heineman.
What a great return for the Jaysfor the Jays had him a couple
(32:36):
years ago. He got cut loose.
It seems like he went through it, a detour to come back to
Toronto. And he's not a young guy either.
I think he's like 3334 so and he's still under control, which
is mind boggling. But how important has he been,
especially the time when Kirk was under concussion protocol
(33:01):
and the way he's been playing behind the plate?
Yeah, it's it's really crazy that in mid August here Tyler
Heineman, who you know, he doesn't have a large sample size
he's in a a backup role, but in mid August he has a 915 OPS like
I and he's a he's been nearly a 2 1/2 win player in a in a
(33:23):
backup role. Like that's that is not
something that I, you know, would have predicted coming into
this season. I don't think anyone did really
maybe in internally for the BlueJays, but credit to the front
office in evaluating him as an individual and saying this is a
guy that's we need as our backupcatcher our you know, our guys
(33:47):
supporting Alejandro Kirk, who has taken on a bigger role this
season 2 with Danny Jansen no longer part of the tandem and
with Heineman as the backup in the limited playing time that he
has gotten, he has taken advantage of every opportunity
that he has gotten. And you know it's not just the
(34:10):
offensively too, it's defensively as well where he
isn't costing you games. He's actually become one of the
best defensive catchers in a backup position in all of
baseball, which is incredible for the Blue Jays because with
Kirk's defence, that's that's given them one of the best
overall catching tandems in the major leagues.
(34:31):
And um, you know, I still remember back in the off season
looking at the very sparse free agent catching markets and, you
know, really just searching for answers in terms of how the Blue
Jays were going to fill that void further their catcher
position. And, and Tyler Heineman has
certainly run with that job and has quieted a lot of the
(34:56):
doubters and credit to him. And you, you spoke about it, the
journey that he has been on in his career, bouncing around from
organization, from organization,having to grind away in the
minor leagues. And now you look at it, he's a
backup catcher on statistically the best team in the American
League. I got one question for you.
(35:18):
And, and, and this catcher turned up like we said has been
probably probably top two, top three in baseball.
What kind of reminds you of in the past?
Would you go back to like to Diana Navarro, Russell Martin
tandem or would you go even further back with Pat Borders or
(35:38):
running or any, any other 10 of that that you could recall in
recent memory? Yeah, I think like it's just so
unique with Alejandro Kirk and Tyler Heineman.
I don't know if there is a really good tandem for them.
Like, you know, like the when, when Danny Jansen and and Kirk
were together in those 2122 years in the Blue Jays had one
(36:02):
of the best tandems in all of baseball.
Like that was the perfect mix ofoffence and defence.
And what they have now perfectlyillustrates that where Kirk is
top five, top three catcher all around catcher in the majors
this year with the offence and coming back in a big way and him
(36:25):
not losing anything on the defensive side.
In fact, he's he's gained more defensive value with how
effective he's been at throwing runners out, which is something
that he's had to work on a ton and even being able to increase
his arm speed has been really impressive too this year.
So yeah, I don't know, like, like I'm a big Russell Martin
(36:48):
fan. I always enjoyed his tenure with
the team, especially him being aCanadian, that just seemed like
a perfect fit. It really sucked seeing him play
for the Yankees and and even thepirate days too.
Like that was it just, it didn'tseem right.
He needed to come home. So the, the, the Blue Jays have
(37:09):
been very lucky with the type ofcatchers that they've had over
the years and with Kirk's now sign long term, it, it, it
really seems like they're, they got something good going behind
the plate for, for many years, which is, is certainly
beneficial because, uh, you know, they're, they're catching
depth in the minor leagues is certainly not what it used to be
(37:32):
going back to the time when theyhad a really good problem in, in
Kirk and Janssen and Gabby Moreno all on the same team.
With all the great performances this offence has had this year
with the Addison Bargers and theErnie Clements and and then you
got Joe Loperfido, Nathan Lucas,David Schneider, out of all the
(37:53):
guys that have really performed well on offence this year, who
would you say is the young son hero for this offence?
Yeah, that's that's a really good question because like you,
you can name any single one of them.
I I think probably Ernie Clementwould be my guy, just him
(38:15):
becoming one of the best hittersin all the baseball against
left-handed pitching and how he has helped transform the Blue
Jays lineup and given them, especially in the top half of
their order. Him being able to hit leadoff or
even in the two spots against left-handed pitching really just
(38:36):
has helped lengthen this lineup.And and Nathan Lucas has done a
very similar thing to against right-handed pitching.
But I think Ernie's a guy who coming into this season, you
really only expected plus defence out of him.
And he got off to a bad start too.
The the offensive numbers were not good in April and early May.
(39:00):
But the way he has come on sincethen has been really impressive
to see. And he's another guy too that
he's not used to this type of workload where he's an everyday
player. He's playing multiple positions
at a high level and and grindingpositions too, like third base
(39:20):
is not an easy job for a guy whoisn't used to being a full time
Major League player. And the fact that Ernie has been
able to give the Blue Jays Gold Glove level defence on top of
being a above average hitter as well has been really impressive.
And you know, he he has, he has certainly endured the ups and
(39:42):
downs of a 162 game season. I mean, about a month ago he was
saying how, how was he? He was experiencing fatigue at A
at a immense fashion for the first time ever at this type of
level. And so to see him get hot again
here lately has been really encouraging to see too.
(40:04):
And it really speaks volumes to the type of person and the type
of player. That, Ernie, is.
It's so crazy that you say that because, you know, it's so funny
to think that guys like Ernie Clement and Nathan Lucas are
from the Cleveland organization where Ross Atkins and Mark
Shapiro were at when they drafted him.
(40:24):
I think about a decade ago, I think Bernie was, and both
Nathan were drafted while Mark when Ross was there right at the
time. So.
Yeah, Ernie. Ernie was an A's draft pick up
or a free agent I believe. Yeah, mine would signing, I
believe that couple years ago. Yeah, I know he was drafted by
Cleveland in 15 say with Lucas. I was doing some research.
(40:45):
I was like, oh, I think I see the connection.
I think you spent spring training with the A's and they
caught him or something. Yeah, Blue Jays brought him on.
Do you think before, before I get to your next question, do
you think Ernie Clement has a good chance of winning the Gold
Glove as a utility man this year?
He damn well better man like I. Like that answer?
(41:09):
He he's just like the defence element of his game is, is
obviously his bread and butter. But like as somebody who has
played as well as he has on thatside of the ball, both at third
base and second base shortstop, like I remember the days too
where we were even seeing earning Clement taking some fly
balls in left field too, just because that's how talented and
(41:31):
versatile he is. So like, yeah, I, I think this
is, this is the time where he deserves recognition as one of
the better utility defenders in the American League.
And so I, I, I'm rooting for him.
I I hope he he comes home with some hardware this year, this
fall. So I want to talk about
(41:52):
Santander. I know that we talked a bit
about him and here he hasn't played majority of the year and
I don't know what's going on with the shoulder.
The last report that we were like we all were told is that it
was 70% progression. What does that mean?
Who knows right? Knowing that this team is hasn't
really revealed much about Santander, is there any possible
(42:17):
way that he still has a chance to be up at some point before
the seasons done? I know there's only about 7
weeks left in the season and andyou know time is kind of running
out, but is there any possible way?
I mean, there's there's always achance, right?
I think the Blue Jays are are certainly holding out hope that
(42:40):
he can come back in a meaningfulway because we can't.
If he can and if he gets back towho he was with Baltimore last
season, like that really adds a major punch to the Blue Jays
lineup. But it's just there's so much
unknown with him, right? Like there's a chance he could
(43:00):
start swinging about again this week or or next week.
But getting him on a rehab assignment is going to be tricky
too, just because you're starting to run up against the
end of the minor league season as well.
So I mean, I guess he could get reps down at the complex in
Dunedin and and try and get backinto baseball game shape there.
(43:24):
But it's just it it's so complicated at this point of the
season. So the odds are certainly
running against Santander being able to come back and and be a
meaningful addition to this team.
But you know, I guess, I guess we'll see.
Alex Manoah has had his regame, saw his rehab starts.
(43:46):
He's just made a start in Buffalo.
He's made his way through all four levels making rehab starts.
But he's, you know, it hasn't really gone too promising for
him. So is he more of a 2026 thing
than than a 2025 issue? Yeah, it's, it's certainly
(44:07):
looking like that, unfortunatelyfor him.
And you know, it's just, it comes with the territory of, of
rehabbing from a UCL injury. Those things always take a lot
of time and, and every pitcher responds differently,
differently to the, the treatment and the recovery
process. So after seeing him pitch for,
(44:29):
for Buffalo earlier today, him not even being able to go 2 full
innings for the Bisons, I, I definitely think it's trending
in that direction where he's somebody that probably just
spends the rest of this season at AAA just trying to log as
many innings and as many outingsas he can to prepare himself to
(44:54):
be an option as a Major League starter for the Blue Jays next
season. Because with Chris Bassett and
Max Scherzer becoming free agents this winter, you do have
some openings in the rotation. Shane Bieber as well, like if
he's healthy, he's opting out ofthat player option.
So they're, they're certainly counting on Manoa to probably
(45:15):
fill one of those two spots in the rotation next season.
And he's a guy too that still has a couple of minor league
options left. So you know you're not running
the risk of burning his final optionable year by keeping him
in AAA beyond his rehab window. But he's got a long way to go,
(45:35):
it looks like. I mean, the the fastball
velocity was really ticking downtoday.
He only averaged 91 mph on the fastball, topping out at 92.
I believe he threw more balls than strikes too.
So he even hit another batter again.
So the command is is certainly awork in progress with him too.
(45:58):
It's unfortunate because Alec Minor with a person, it is a
really easy guy to root for. And so you hope he can
eventually get back to the top of the mountain because he has
just been working his way tires tirelessly trying to get back to
where he was in 2022 as a Cy Young finalist.
(46:21):
But he he's still got a a long journey ahead of him.
Let's talk about the prospect perspective of this
organization. And it was a problem for them
the last couple years or so, given the fact that they had
they tried to recover from that blood bowl era of talent that
(46:42):
they had and built around with of course, and now it seems like
it's starting to turn the corner.
And if you look at last year, the wave was ranked, I believe
consensus sly it was Ricky Tiderman and roll this Martinez.
But so much has changed within aone year span.
And and if you look at now it's it's JoJo Parker.
(47:03):
The Arjun Amala is to trade savages, of course, right.
Like, however, you want to rank up because everybody has
different rankings. Like if you look at if you look
at the list and especially, you know, benefiting from last
year's trade deadline, how important is it now moving
forward, especially the way thisteam is built?
Yeah, it's massive, right? We, we, we saw the benefits of
(47:25):
the the system turn around at the trade deadline where the
Blue Jays were able to be aggressive because how, because
of how many success stories theyhad on the pitching side, where
you can trade away Cal Steven and Kendry Rojas and Iran Watts
Brown and still not be left witha completely bare system worth
(47:47):
of of pitching prospects. I mean really the the Blue Jays
are have certainly weakened their system a little bit by
those subtractions. Even MLB Pipeline still had them
at 20th overall, which is a significant jump considering
heading into the season they hadthem ranked 27th.
(48:09):
So the the Blue Jays system is still in a really good spot and
certainly from a high level talent standpoint.
The fact that the Blue Jays got through the trade deadline
improved their Major League roster and didn't have to give
away any of their top prospects in Yesavage, JoJo Parker,
Namala, Johnny King, Ricky Tiedeman, even guys like Gage
(48:32):
Stanifer and those type of success stories.
Those are the arms that you willuse to help replenish the depth
that the Blue Jays leveraged at the trade deadline.
And so hopefully moving forward,they can continue to have these
types of years where they have guys pop in the system and rise
(48:54):
through the minor league levels and allow them to continuously
go out and spend and be aggressive at the trade deadline
and and and continue to keep this competitive window open for
several seasons beyond 2025. Because as much as much payroll
flexibility as the Blue Jays still have, and as much of a
(49:14):
commitment as ownership has showed in being able to spend
money and invest into this roster and make the Blue Jays a
top five spending team in the majors, you still have to have a
a prospect system that you can dip into and use via trade to
help improve your team that way as well.
(49:36):
You know, it's funny that you mentioned about the Blue Jays in
their trade deadline and they really they gave up some guys,
but they didn't give up a lot ofguys to the point where they
completely bared their cover. Another, you know, restart
again, which, you know, I, I agree.
I think that's exactly how how Ifeel too, is that that, you
know, they gave up some guys, but it really didn't hurt him
(49:58):
all that much in the end. But let's looking at the
prospects like now that we currently still have, who do you
who do you feel like could be part of the factor long term or
maybe trade candidates in the offseason?
Yeah, so it'll be interesting. I think Trey Savage is somebody
(50:19):
that I would consider an untouchable.
I, you know, especially given how close he is to the Major
League level. I wouldn't be moving him for any
type of player. And I think with JoJo Charger
and our JoJo Parker and Arjun Namala, you now have a situation
where you have multiple guys in your system that could project
(50:43):
as franchise middle infielders, whether that's at shortstop or
second base. And with Bouchette future
unknown beyond this season, it really makes it interesting as
to what the futures of both of those guys are going to be long
term. But Johnny King is another guy
(51:03):
who's several years away. Obviously, he's only 19 years
old and he's currently pitching at Single A Dunedin.
But from what we've seen from him so far, he's got the
potential to be a frontline starter at the Major League
level one day. You know, he's still got a lot
of rawness to him and still there's a ton of development
(51:25):
still to go with him. But if everything clicks for him
over the next few years, that's another prospect that could
potentially help the Blue Jays either at the Major League level
with their own team or if they want to swing big.
He's somebody that they could attach to any trade package and
(51:46):
and really be able to go out andacquire an impact player to help
them now rather than having to wait 2-3 seasons down the road
for for Johnny King to help themat that point.
It's so funny that you say that because like, you know, I know
Shapiro when he was in Cleveland, he either acquired
(52:07):
talent out of nowhere and built the farm via trades, trading
some veteran to go get guys who are under control.
And you know, the way Cleveland operates, their bread and butter
is always been pitching and developing, right?
And could you see the same thingwith that with Toronto, the way
the farm is now kind of intact and trying to build around it
(52:28):
and the way the future it's built now, especially with more
prospects coming into the system?
Yeah, I think that's one way of doing it, right.
The draft also helps too. And the Blue Jays, by all
accounts, it seems like they hada really good draft again this
past summer. And so that definitely helps
support your prospect system, too, especially when you can add
(52:51):
a a talent like JoJo Parker to the mix, who immediately becomes
one of your top prospects in your system.
But yeah, I think it's all aboutplayer evaluation.
And like the Los Angeles Dodgersand the Tampa Bay Rays are two
of the best organizations in thebusiness at being able to scout
(53:11):
other teams, players, underutilize players and being
able to add them to their own organization, make a few changes
and then those guys pop for them.
And the Blue Jays have been ableto do a little bit of that here
too, especially at the Major League level with guys like
Nathan Lucas and Ernie Clement. But you know, you would like to
(53:31):
see them continue to pull off those types of surprise
storylines. Because obviously from a
financial standpoint, it really helps you when you can acquire
guys who are either pre ARB or arbitration or early in their
arbitration and years and and beable to have them be impact
players for you at a very cost effective figure.
(53:57):
Next question I want to ask you is looking at the schedule and
looking the way the schedule is going right now.
They're going through a little bit of a gauntlet right now, but
it seems like gauntlets are being a thing for the Jays and
they've been over covering teams.
If if you look at the way the seasons gone right now, they got
the Cubs for two more, they got the Rangers for three and then
(54:18):
they have somewhat of a lighter schedule, but you never know
because the Blue Jays don't playwell with teams that are sub 500
for some reason, right? But September seems like they're
going to go through a much, muchtougher schedule throughout the
way. If you look at they got the
Brewers, they got the Breads, they got the Yankees, they got
the Astros and and the last, I think the last two weeks they
(54:40):
got the the Red Sox or is it theOR is it the Rays or the Red
Sox, Rays, Royals. I think that somewhere around
there, but like how important for them to try to compete the
way they are, especially with reinforcements coming back and
the way their schedule is and how good of a team this Toronto
(55:00):
Blue Jays 2025 Jays team is. It is important.
I mean, they do, like the math says exactly that.
They have one of the tougher remaining schedules in the
American League. So did the Red Sox.
So that definitely helps from AAstandings perspective because it
seems like right now, the Red Sox currently have a better shot
(55:24):
of giving the Blue Jays a fight for the division than the
Yankees do. And the Yankees have the easiest
remaining strength of schedule in the American League.
So you can't count them out either.
But the key here for the Blue Jays is being able to one win
their division and then after that, you have to claim one of
(55:44):
the top 2 seeds in the American League.
And they're in a great spot to do that, right?
But they have to be able to holdon to their current position
because avoiding the wild card series is the should also be the
priority. Like you want to win your
division, you want to have home field advantage, but to be able
to get an immediate buy to a best of five series would be
(56:05):
massive for the Blue Jays, especially given their history
in the wild card series of late.Like those best of three series
are just so unpredictable. And when you look at the
potential competition that the Blue Jays could face in a best
of three series, especially froma pitching standpoint, you want
to do everything you can to not have to run through a Texas
(56:28):
Rangers team that could throw atyou Jacob degrom or and Nathan
he of ALDI in those first two games.
It just it makes all the sense in the world for the Blue Jays
to continue pushing towards having one of those top 2
records in the American League and giving themselves a little
bit of a rest for the first round and and maximizing their
(56:52):
chances of being able to go on adeep playoff run this year.
So Mark Shapiro had a presser this week, I believe was
yesterday actually, where he where he he talks about his
future possibly. And I wanted to bring up a
quote. He he had said he said, when I
(57:13):
think about alternatives, I've never been to grass is greener
guy. He goes on to say 24 years in
one place in Cleveland and 10 years here now.
So it's a preached the appreciation for what I have and
the people I get to work with every day, the city that I work
in, in the country that I live in.
Those things are drivers for me to remain here.
So and he's had contact. He's had contact with Tony
(57:36):
Staffieri and Edward Rogers about this and about his
situation. And we all know that, you know,
the Leafs had let go a long timePresident, yeah, Brendan
Shanahan. And then a few weeks later, the
Raptors let go beside jury. So and he's been here a long
time, so, you know, and they're not owned by MLSC.
(57:57):
So what are your thoughts on hisfuture and and do you believe
that he'll remain with the Blue Jays when the season is done?
I do, yeah. I I think we got more years
coming from Mark Shapiro with the Blue Jays.
It, it certainly sounded like things were headed in that
direction when Shapiro spoke to the media on Wednesday or on
(58:18):
Tuesday. And so I think it's different in
terms of comparing what the Leafs and Raptors had to do
under MLSE versus what Shapiro means to the Blue Jays, where
Shapiro has a hand in the business side, but also the
baseball side, too. And it's it's more of a rare mix
(58:40):
these days. You don't typically see a
president of baseball OPS being so involved on both aspects of
it. And March Paul has a great
relationship with Rogers Communications.
And you know, with the success that that the team has had this
year, I don't see any reason as to why they would want to make
(59:02):
it change at the top for the Blue Jays.
And I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Mark Shapiro get an
extension done and and same for Ross Atkins and and John
Schneider too. John Schneider has a an option
on his contract for next season.Ross Atkins will be in the final
year of his deal in 2026. So if things had gone different
(59:26):
differently for the Blue Jays this season and you know, they
had to be sellers at the trade deadline again and and fell out
of the mix and didn't make the playoffs, then sure, we could
have seen a bunch of changes made throughout the
organization. But winning is is the best cure
for pretty much anything in sports.
(59:47):
And with how well the Blue Jays are playing right now, I think
it's all up to whether or not Mark Shapiro wants to continue
working with the Blue Jays and buy all.
By all indications, it seems like that's where his priority
is. Before we had this I would I
(01:00:07):
still am enamored about Sundays game when Mason Flirty got 2
MVP's out and win the game. And it's so crazy to think
because there was some sort of historic stat with the Hoffman
to flirty. I believe that with Hoffman he
(01:00:29):
got five walks and .2 innings pitch and he got the win and I
think it was like a 1901 record and that Mason Flirty did
something no no closer has done since Trevor Hoffman which was
what, 98 getting 2 MVP's out to win the game.
Like when you witnessed that, what were your thoughts about
(01:00:52):
that and what was on your mind when you saw all that?
Yeah, I was, I was riding the roller coaster as much as
everyone. That was that was one of the
crazier and Wilder games we haveseen this season.
Just the oh, man, the the situation that Mason Flu Hardy
(01:01:14):
was put in there. It's just like, it's like not
even the fact that he's a rookie, but just somebody who
has to come in to a situation where the bases are loaded,
you're up by 1, there's one out in the inning and you have to go
up against Shohei Otani, Mooki bats.
And then after that you got WillSmith, Freddie Freeman and
Teoscar Hernandez. Like good luck, man, that is
(01:01:37):
just it's so unfair and the BlueJays have done this so many
different times already with Mason flu Hardy by just throwing
him into the fire and credit to him for coming out ahead.
Most of the time. It speaks to the the caliber of
player he is, but also just the the way he has has been able to
(01:01:58):
just calm his nerves and and pitch with ice water in his
veins. Really, because that was a a
beautiful strikeout of Shohei ina full count too, I believe.
Where was he? He was one pitch away from
walking in the tying run. And so, you know, that's
something that he's probably going to be able to enjoy for
(01:02:21):
the rest of his career, probablysomething that he can tell his
kids long after he's retired andand always have that with him
that he got out of that impossible jam and struck struck
out one of the best hitters of this generation.
It's been really impressive to see it.
Hopefully it can be a springboard moving forward for
(01:02:43):
flu Hardy because he, you know, we all remember the the rough
Rd. that he endured before he got the reset back at AAA.
And so if he can really build off of that and be more like the
pitcher we saw him earlier this season, who next to Brendan
Little formed one of the best lefty combos in the major
(01:03:06):
leagues, it would be really, really helpful for the Blue Jays
moving forward here. Thomas Bad, thanks for coming
back once again. We had a great time actually.
This was a fun episode, man, especially the way the Blue Jays
are playing right now. And great insight, great
information. Now where can we find you on
(01:03:27):
social media and everywhere else?
Yeah, it's always a blast catching up with you guys.
But yeah, I'm I'm on X or Twitter, whatever people call it
these days. My my handle is my last name
Hall on just under score Thomas and and another under score is
there all most of my work is canbe found at at at Blue Jays
(01:03:50):
Nation, but I also do a little bit of work for for MLB.com and
dine sports as well. So if you want have a read at
all that and you'll probably be able to hear me whether it's on
Sportsnet fan 590 in Toronto or sports 1440 in Edmonton.
(01:04:12):
I I'm usually pretty much everywhere that anyone's talking
about the Blue Jays. So.
But yeah, that's where you can find my stuff.
Yeah, man, this is this is so much fun.
We had a blast. Thanks for joining us today and
hopefully we can go for the three-peat.
Maybe in the offseason or something we can get you back,
man. Yeah, if the Jays going to deep
(01:04:34):
run, don't don't hesitate to give me a a hauler voice.
For sure, and we will place the description below where you can
find Thomas Sauza social media information and his credentials.
But till next time, take care, be kind to each other.
Signing up for this Blue Jays Ave. podcast on Wednesday,
(01:04:57):
August 13th, 2025. Yeah.
Welcome to another edition of the Blue Jays Ave.
Podcast. We have a returning guest in
here today and he was in episode8 of this podcast.
Thomas Hall, welcome back. Just remind everyone what you do
when everything else. Yeah, thanks for having me back
on, guys. It's, it's certainly a different
(00:52):
tone as to, to when we last spoke about this team.
But yeah, I'm everything Blue Jays from from writing to
reporting to doing hits like this on podcasts or radio
appearances. Most like, I'd say probably 95%
of the content I make is, is about the Blue Jays here.
(01:13):
So definitely, definitely thrilled to be able to to come
back on with you guys again. Yeah, man, it's awesome to have
you back. It's definitely a different tone
since the last time we talked. It's, you know, the, the the
Blue Jays have just, you know, completely turned their season
around and everything's going right.
And it's a great time to have you on.
(01:35):
It's a great time to be a Jays fan.
So let's get into it. Alright, so last time you were
here, it was episode 8 like likeI said, and we didn't know what
this team was because there wereso many question Marks and you
know, a lot of people thought that this team needed another
bat. Their picture was OK, but some
(01:56):
of the relievers were played better than expected.
And you know, they started off with guys like Jacob Barnes and
Richard Lovelady, but now 120 games into.
My goodness. Richard Lovelady.
Jacob Barnes. So we have come along, grillers.
(02:17):
Chad Green, Yeah. Chad Green, too.
Yeah. Eric Swanson.
There's a whole great guys. Yeah.
So now we're like pretty much 2/3 into the season, maybe
beyond that, 120 games in. And if you had to ask yourself
here, the Jays would be the second best team in baseball,
(02:40):
the first team in the AL to to reach 7070 wins.
And being in first place, the way things are going, in your
mind, what would you have said to yourself if the Blue Jays
were were were they at right now?
You know, I, I would say look like everything must have
(03:02):
clicked for this team and you goback over these last several
months and and it hasn't in manydifferent ways.
And I think if you were to have told me this in April, I would
have also said how is Vladdy? How is Beau doing?
Are they the ones predictably carrying the way?
And over the last month or so, they have certainly been
(03:25):
stepping it up and and leading this offence.
But one of the bigger surprises of this season is just how much
the Blue Jays have been able to maximize their entire 26 man
roster between from the the 13 position players that they've
had, the 13 pitchers. Like they are maximizing every
(03:45):
bit of value that they've gottenout of every single spot on the
roster. And not something that when you
look back at 2024 and even the previous seasons, that's
something that the Blue Jays really didn't do all that well.
I remember back in in 2023 and 2022 where that 13th position
(04:07):
player spot on the roster was basically just a throwaway one
for the Blue Jays. They would just bring somebody
up, have them sit on the bench for three games consecutively
and, you know, maybe play once twice a week, come off the bench
a little bit like barely being used in that type of spot.
And then you compare to what they've been able to do this
(04:30):
year. And, and just from a lineup
perspective, how much they have used every single spot on the
bench, maximizing the the platoon advantage like they
have. It's been really fun to watch
and it's been quite an enjoymentfor for all of us who have been
able to to follow along for the ride.
(04:52):
Blue Jays had an interesting trade deadline.
They acquired quite a bit of talent and they I think they
made 4 trades when all was said and done.
So how? How well did Ross Atkins do at
this deadline? And how much of improvement have
the Jays made acquiring talent? Yeah, I think they did really
(05:14):
well under the circumstances. Like it was an extreme sellers
market this year more than we saw in previous years under this
playoff format where you have the through wild card scenes or
seeds, that makes it a lot easier for teams on the bubble
to still think they are realistically in it when they
(05:37):
shouldn't be. And so prices this year were
just astronomical for impact players.
And Despite that, the Blue Jays were able to go out and upgrade
the ceiling of their roster, specifically on the pitching
side, where you solidify the bullpen with addings or anything
(05:58):
need Dominguez and Louis Varland, you're able to take a a
high risk, high reward type of move on Shane Bieber, which so
far through two rehab starts at AAA is looking like a a pretty
safe bet early on. So we'll see how that plays out
once he actually gets up to the major leagues and and joins the
(06:19):
Blue Jays rotation. But overall, like given what
they had to give up, who they they received as well in those
deals, I think they did extremely well on that front and
even tie France. Like he's not somebody that is
probably going to give you a tonof power, even though he has hit
(06:40):
for a lot of extra base power since joining the Blue Jays.
Like that's a spot where I thinkmaybe they could have aimed a
little bit higher. But when you look at the guys
who were actually out there on the market, the Blue Jays still
did OK with going out and getting a low cost bat in Thai
France, somebody that can hit well against left-handed
(07:02):
pitching and play multiple positions.
So, you know, it's not the worstpickup in the world.
But when Anthony Santander is out of the lineup and who knows
what his return timeline will be?
Personally, I would have liked to see the Blue Jays that a
little bit more power to the middle of their lineup, but I
think that just came down to a lack of supply rather than a
(07:25):
lack of aggressiveness from the Blue Jays.
You know, it's so funny that we talked, I think 2 days are a day
before the trade deadline. And we were just talking.
And then I saw your report aboutthe Jays being interested in
Mike Soroka. And it was interesting to see
that given the fact that he did have a better second-half.
But boy, you saw what happened with the Cubs and it's it's been
(07:49):
backfiring for them. And I think another guy that I
know you were intrigued about it.
I think a lot of Jays fans wanted what's Redeemers.
And he has like, I think 4 yearsof control.
And it's so funny you say that because like you look at
Varland, I think he has six years including this year.
And then you have Redeemers who has four or five years.
So it's like, did you think thatthe Blue Jays were aiming at a
(08:11):
guy who had longevity of controlfor relief?
Louis Varland trade surprised the hell out of me.
I did not think they were going to pull off that type of move.
I really wasn't even sure. I don't think anyone really
thought the Twins were gonna sell as much as they did.
And credit for the Blue Jays to really strike while the iron was
(08:35):
hot where the the Twins were just absolutely tearing down and
taking advantage of the sellers market.
And so for the Blue Jays to quote and add a young,
controllable, nasty, high leverage reliever to the core of
their bullpen like that, to me, I think, you know, outside of
the Bieber trade was probably their best move leading up to
(08:57):
the trade deadline. Because that's going to have an
immense impact not only not onlyon their bullpen for this
season, but for future ones as well.
And at a price that you can affordably pay too.
So I want to talk a bit about Shane Bieber here because he
seemed like he was the best available starting pitcher
(09:17):
acquired at the trade deadline and you saw the market for
starting pitching. It was ridiculous.
You could see it was the fact like you know the way starting
pitching guys were available with control like all Contras
and Edward Cabrera asking priceswere like you, they were asking
for your top prospect or your top 2 prospects or both.
(09:41):
So looking at Shane Bieber and you mentioned about his rehab
starts, where does he fit in this rotation once he's back?
I think he'll be back next week,but like, how important will he
be down the stretch and perhaps in the playoffs?
Yeah, I mean it's a really interesting question because the
(10:02):
way he has pitched so far at AAAmakes you think that he can
still be a front of the line starter.
And for the Blue Jays, they currently have 5 healthy
starters, right? And so there's all this talk
about whether or not the team will go to a six man rotation.
And I think that's probably ultimately what they will end up
(10:23):
doing with the off days coming up later this month on the 21st
and the 28th, let alone the the off days that they have in early
September. It's going to make for an
awkward fit, but if the rest of the Blue Jays rotation is OK
with getting extra rest and and having, you know, this weird
(10:43):
funky starting schedule for a little bit, maybe once, twice
through the rotation, I think it'll be worthwhile.
I think that will help them bridge the gap to September when
it will be more feasible to run with A6 starter six man rotation
for a longer stretch because then you're not running 1
(11:04):
reliever short in the bullpen with rosters expansion.
So we'll see what ends up happening.
But the value that you or the potential that you have with
Bieber is if he is back to who he was pre Tommy John, that's
somebody you can slot in as potentially one of your, you
know, game one, game two playoffstarters.
(11:28):
Yeah, this is a great segue to the question I want to bring up
about the depth of this rotation.
You know, last night during the game, they were panicked to the
dugout and you just saw the the the row of experience that this
Blue Jays rotation has now, and that was with Jose Berrios on
the mount. So it's like, how is the depth
(11:51):
of this rotation now looking at heading towards the playoffs?
Yeah, it's true. It's changed drastically.
Like, um, again, to to compare where this team was, where this
rotation was back in April when we spoke.
Like it's so much deeper now than it was.
Like, it's crazy that, you know,potentially whatever ends up
(12:13):
happening with Alec Minola, but the Blue Jays could potentially
get to a point where they have 7.
There's seven Major League starters deep, which did not
seem feasible at any point earlier this season.
But the way Max Scherzer and Eric Lauer have really come into
form here over these last several weeks have been really
(12:35):
impressive. And it puts the Blue Jays in a
great spot where they have the luxury of being able to go to a
six man rotation if they want to.
It's not their only option, of course.
They could. They could bring Bieber up and
have him be a spot starter for afew turns.
Or they could have Eric Lauer potentially piggyback Scherzer
(13:00):
or Bieber. Or have Bieber in that type of
role. Or use some phantom ill stints
to to give guys a few weeks of rest before the the stretch run
to September. But I think the Blue Jays, in
terms of their starting rotationare in a great spot right now.
Now like they, they still need to have guys perform up to
(13:22):
expectations too. And that's certainly been a a
little bit of an underrated concern here lately with this
rotation. But in terms of the depth that
they have, it's hard to complainwhere they're at right now.
Who would you say is The X Factor for this rotation?
(13:44):
Because we look at the ups and downs of this team.
Barrios, he did what he had to. I think he had a 38 pitch inning
yesterday, game one against the Cubs and and he's still grinded
it out. And you know, there was some
moments, you know, thinking thatthere was, you know, couple
years ago, you know, the whole fiasco about pulling him in 1/4
(14:04):
when he was pitching really wellin Minnesota.
That's one example. And then you have Chris Bassett.
There is something about Chris Bassett that he cannot pitch on
the road for some damn reason. I don't know if it's a mental
aspect or if it's the fact that he just can't handle the hostile
environment playing, the playingon the road, but he pitches
phenomenally at home. Scherzer has been has been great
(14:28):
as of late. I think the most important part
is his stump has been intact andthere hasn't been any issues
ever since. He's been pitching well once
again, I think that's so important.
And then you got the gauze and then the Biebers and Eric Lauer,
who's been a great find one of those Astrada type of stories or
(14:48):
Jay Happ type of stories or or Robbie Ray type of stories that
has happened and all thanks to Pete Walker.
Like who would you say would be the biggest X Factor of this
rotation moving forward? Yeah, I think it's definitely
Bieber. Like I as somebody who's a, a
former Cy Young winner, the potential that he has as a
(15:08):
former ace like it it's to me, it's clear cut that it's Shane
Bieber. And if he can get back to that
level, it changes the dynamic ofthis entire rotation down the
stretch and into October, where it will take a lot of pressure
off guys like Barrios and Gausman to be your frontline
starters, to be the horses of this rotation.
(15:32):
Where if Bieber comes back and he is that number one guy and
and you know, we have to give him a little bit of a leash here
too because he is coming off of such a significant layoff
because of Tommy John. But if these starts over the
next couple of weeks allow him to round back into form by the
time late September, early October hits, then it
(15:57):
immediately slots the Blue Jays into one of those teams that you
don't want to face in October because of the type of arms that
they can roll out at you in a best of five series.
Hopefully not best of three. But even then, if Bieber is back
to that ace level pitcher, having him start game one
potentially certainly would helptilt things in the Blue Jays
(16:21):
favor. Let's talk about the bullpen a
little bit and like the the struggles that Jeff Hoffman is
gonna go on. He's struggled for the better
part of, you know, a month and ahalf.
And are there any concerns with him down the stretch potentially
in that closers role? I don't think so.
(16:42):
Like obviously Sundays outing against the Dodgers was, was
very concerning, but when you when you look at the fact that
he didn't pitch for a week and prior to that outing he hadn't
issued a single walk in eight consecutive outings, I don't
(17:03):
think he is in any danger of losing his closers job anytime
soon. I think we also have to remember
how much how how high of a workload that he has had to
endure this season too. So it is very possible that he
is facing some sort of level of fatigue right now too.
As much rest as he did get priorto that outing against the
(17:26):
Dodgers. This is still somebody that is
operating as a full time closer for the first time in his
career. So navigating this stage of the
season is still something that he's learning to do.
And I think it would obviously help if he had somebody like
Jimmy Garcia in the bullpen withhim to help shoulder this weight
(17:47):
that he has at the back end of the bullpen.
But unfortunately, it's been a injury plague season for Jimmy
and hopefully he's able to come back sometime soon.
I know we're, we're still waiting to get any sort of
update from John Schneider aboutany follow up news regarding
Jimmy after he had a cortisone injection, I think like two or
(18:09):
three weeks ago. Um, but I think Hoffman is, is
somebody that's like we saw earlier this season when he's
on, he is one of the better closers in all baseball just in
terms of the amount of swing andmyths that he can add to the
Blue Jays bullpen. And so, you know, I, I think the
Blue Jays are probably just going to stick with them here.
(18:31):
Like he has been their guy all season.
So I don't see any sort of indication that the Blue Jays
would would pivot away from that, at least for now.
Yeah, I think it's important youchange that because now we're,
well, like we're we're we're pretty much in the last stretch
of the season now. If you think about six weeks
left, seven weeks I believe. So you gotta ride with the guy
(18:55):
that you've been depending on all year.
So I I see where you're coming from.
But the next question I want to ask you here.
Let's dive deep into this bullpen because you we talked
earlier how it started with the bullpen, right?
And certain guys came off to good starts.
And now you look at a whole different landscape of what this
(19:16):
bullpen is now, right? You look at the Brandon Littles,
who's been great for the Jays. You have your Yariel Rodriguez,
who's been excellent throughout the most part of the season.
And and then of course you got you got the Brayden Fishers,
who's been a another find and soon and so forth.
And we could pray to both bullpen.
But if you look at this team like in high leverage
(19:39):
situations, like I know we talked about Hoffman and let's
just say if it gets to a point when Hoffman gets an off day,
who would who would fill in thatclosure spot?
Would you go with Rodriguez? Would you go with Varlin?
Would you go with Sir Anthony Dominguez or somewhere to the
point like you have to face the the three best hitters before
you get to hospital or or or even in between, who would you
(20:02):
go with? So I think it would depend on
matchups for me, right and, and who's pitching well or the the
the best at that certain time. I think Yariel Rodriguez has
earned a lot of trust from the Blue Jays coaching staff and,
and rightly so, the the way he has performed since emerging as
(20:22):
a high leverage option has just been excellent.
And so I think he's somebody that would certainly probably
receive a lot of consideration to to pitch in a safe situation.
If Hoffman was unavailable, I think Sir Anthony Dominguez has
the experience that you could put him in that type of role,
but you also run the risk of having him give you the full Sir
(20:47):
Anthony Dominguez experience where he he's capable of of
giving you a lot of swing and miss and and, you know, dialing
it up on the radar gun. But he is susceptible to losing
the strike zone and and giving up home runs.
So that would give me a little bit of pause.
But I think Louis Varland is a rising star in this pen and he's
(21:07):
somebody that I could foresee becoming a future closer one
day. And with Jeff Hoffman in the
Blue Jays bullpen, that day is probably not going to come
anytime soon. But he is somebody that I would
trust against anybody. I mean, with his arsenal, he's
able to get righties and leftiesout and the Blue Jays have have
(21:29):
basically gotten him down to be a two pitch pitcher, even though
he has still a starters arsenal.He's mostly now just a fastball
knuckle curve guy, similar to the type of adjustments that
they made with Brendan Little once he joined the organization.
And you know, between all of those guys, even Brendan
Fischer, like he's somebody thatI would trust in a certain safe
(21:53):
situation if the matchups lined up well for him.
So I think they have a lot of options that they could go to.
And obviously if Jimmy Garcia eventually comes back, then he
would be another arm that they could thrust into that type of
situation if they needed to. On Monday, the Blue Jays
promoted top pitching prospect Trea Savage to AAA, which kind
(22:17):
of puts him in line for a for a call up when the season, when
the minor league season ends or maybe even sooner.
So do you think that there's a chance that that happens if he
pitches well in in in Buffalo inthe coming weeks?
Yeah, I think so. I think it's definitely more
realistic than it ever has been at any point this season.
(22:39):
The like the Blue Jays have essentially been game planning
for this potential outcome wherethey wanted to ensure that he
had some gas left in the tank tohelp the Bigley club if a need
arose. And so that like that's still
the key part. Like one, yes, like Trace Savage
actually has to pitch well, AAA Buffalo and show that he can
(23:01):
handle this next level of competition facing more advanced
hitters that he then he has faced at previous levels.
But you also got to have the right position open up for him
at the Major League level. And I think one spot that would
make a ton of sense for him is being a multi inning reliever
(23:21):
out of the bullpen, just to givehim a taste of what life is like
at the Major League level. And when you look at this Blue
Jays bullpen too, they don't have a traditional long man in
their pen either, somebody who could eat multiple innings for
them if they were being if they were blowing out a team or or
getting blown out by another team.
(23:43):
You know, we, we saw that over the weekend in Los Angeles where
if the Blue Jays are in a situation like that, they
basically have to run through their entire bullpen just to
cover those innings. And so if Trey Savage can do
that, could do that for them that now, then that one, that
would give him valuable experience, but two, it also be
helping the team in a big way aswell.
(24:04):
So maybe that's one scenario that we could see him in.
Maybe he comes up and and is used as a spot starter too.
That's always possible as well. Um, when I one idea I floated
around to in an article I wrote earlier this week is that, you
know, maybe the Blue Jays even consider putting him in a high
(24:26):
leverage type of role to just get him in an environment where
he can just empty the tank across an inning or two.
Have his his nasty over the top fastball play up from mid 90s to
9899. It would allow him to basically
(24:48):
eliminate his curveball and justfocus on that fastball, his
slider and his splitter and see what type of results you get out
of him there. You don't want to throw too much
at him too quickly, but for a guy that has the type of stuff
and talent that he does, it gives you a lot of options to
consider if you're the Blue Jays.
(25:10):
Once you Savage proves that, he is ready for the next test.
You know, it's so funny that yousay that because like, he's he's
the top pitching prospect in thejury system as it stands, right?
And reminds me a bit of if you remember during the COVID year
when Shay Mcclanahan didn't pitch during the regular season
(25:32):
and it was only 60 games and they let him pitch in the
playoffs and they didn't even start his service type.
Could you see that similarity? Because obviously he has to be
on the 40 man roster before before September 1st.
And I wonder if they do that andtry to manipulate a service
time. Yeah, it would be a little tough
(25:55):
to do just because of the the roster crunch that you'd be
facing there. You'd have to be very sure if
you're going to make that type of move that you Savage would be
ready for the postseason. And I'm not necessarily sure
that they would need him in thattype of role just because you
can eliminate some guys from therotation.
(26:17):
Like, for example, you could have Eric Lauer moved to the
bullpen and cover innings for you there if you wanted to.
So I don't know if the Blue Jayswould be able to pull off that
type of example, but it is certainly it gets the juices
flowing thinking about him coming out in October and making
his debut in A Shame in Mcclanahan type of.
(26:39):
Way. So the next question I want to
ask you, it's the offence and this is something we've been
talking about the last couple ofyears.
And if you look at the way the offence is going, it's
definitely improved this year compared to definitely compared
to last year and perhaps a year before, right?
And how deep is this offence andhow much credit would you give
(27:03):
to guys like Lou and Nettie and Hunter Mens and definitely David
Popkins who came from the Twins organization?
How much credit do you give those guys?
A ton. They have completely changed not
only the the depth and the talent of this this lineup, but
they have helped reestablish thetype of culture and identity
(27:26):
that the Blue Jays lacked in previous seasons on the
offensive side of things. And so they deserve a ton of
credit for what they have been able to accomplish this season.
Like the Blue Jays don't enjoy this type of offensive
resurgence without those additions to the coaching staff.
You know, like you just think like I, I think back to spring
(27:47):
training and just the adjustments that they started to
make with Addison Barger and David Schneider and basically
undoing the, you know, the the mishandling of their swing pass
and, and, and mechanical adjustments that they were, you
know, advised to do, but not necessarily helping them at the
(28:09):
plates bomb from Don Mattingly and and Gilmer Martinez, who who
led the offence for a couple of seasons before this year.
And so, you know, they they desert, they certainly are the I
guess the the the silent heroes because they're, you know,
they're obviously not the ones at the front of this group, you
(28:35):
know, getting a lot of the attention most nights, at least
most times. So, you know, the way they have
been able to not only with the younger guys, but like the
resurgence of the resurgent seasons that George Springer and
Alejandro Kirk have had to like the work that the hitting
department has done with those guys too, has just been so
(28:56):
remarkable to watch. And even, you know, getting
Bouchet and Vladimir Greer junior at the levels that they
have been right now. I mean, since July 6th, the
those have been two of the most valuable players in all of
baseball. So definitely the changes that
the Blue Jays made last winter to their hitting department and
(29:18):
coaching staff have have laid the foundation for what has
played out this year. Funny you mentioned George
Springer because today he was just cleared from concussion
protocol and will start rehab rehab games in the coming days.
Once he's back, though, who do you think is going to be the odd
(29:40):
man out here? Yeah, that's certainly gonna be
a tough decision for the Blue Jays to make.
You know, the the easy one of course, earlier or yesterday was
was DFA Buddy Kennedy so AndreasJimenez could rejoin the active
roster. But I think, you know, we'll,
we'll see when Springer is readyto return.
(30:02):
I believe he's going to start a rehab assignment tomorrow with
AAA Buffalo. And depending how that goes,
they may give him another game on Friday before he comes back
potentially on the weekend against the Rangers.
But when that does happen, we'llsee.
I mean, I don't think they're going to be cutting ties with Ty
(30:23):
France at this point, who doesn't have any option minor
league options. And you know, as well as Joey
Loperfido has played, he is a guy who has minor league options
left, same with David Schneider.I could see the Blue Jays
optioning one of those two guys down to AAA Buffalo for a couple
of weeks and then bringing them right back up when rosters
(30:46):
expand in September. Because otherwise, you're
potentially looking at DFA and Ty France or Miles Straw.
And you know, Miles Straw, even though he doesn't have the type
of, you know, sexy offensive stats, at least on the season,
he's still somebody that has really gelled extremely well
(31:07):
with this Blue Jays team, especially in the clubhouse and
what he has given you defensively.
I don't think the Blue Jays wanna cut ties with him right
now. He's probably not somebody that
makes their playoff roster. But I think when you're looking
at the depth that the Blue Jays will need over these last month,
month and a half, I think keeping Miles Straw part of this
(31:31):
roster is something the Blue Jays will probably go with.
And unfortunately, that will likely come at the cost of
optioning either Joey Loperfido or David Schneider.
Seems like this team has a good problem right now when it comes
to offence that I can't recall ayear when the Blue Jays had
this, maybe maybe the 1516 years.
Perhaps it's it's relatively deep.
(31:53):
But the next question I want to talk about is the catcher
tandem. And you know, it seems like when
Kirk got its extension, Vlad gotits etcetera.
It seems like everything has calmed down.
The storm has quieted and every it seems like the chemistry is
up to sink. Like the this clubhouse is a
tight knit group. Like I haven't seen a clubhouse
(32:14):
like this in quite some time. You know, playing free minded
baseball and playing winning baseball.
But Kirk being the guy and he's back.
He's back to being a top three, top five kitchen in sport.
But the guy that hasn't been talked about is Tyler Heineman.
What a great return for the Jaysfor the Jays had him a couple
(32:36):
years ago. He got cut loose.
It seems like he went through it, a detour to come back to
Toronto. And he's not a young guy either.
I think he's like 3334 so and he's still under control, which
is mind boggling. But how important has he been,
especially the time when Kirk was under concussion protocol
(33:01):
and the way he's been playing behind the plate?
Yeah, it's it's really crazy that in mid August here Tyler
Heineman, who you know, he doesn't have a large sample size
he's in a a backup role, but in mid August he has a 915 OPS like
I and he's a he's been nearly a 2 1/2 win player in a in a
(33:23):
backup role. Like that's that is not
something that I, you know, would have predicted coming into
this season. I don't think anyone did really
maybe in internally for the BlueJays, but credit to the front
office in evaluating him as an individual and saying this is a
guy that's we need as our backupcatcher our you know, our guys
(33:47):
supporting Alejandro Kirk, who has taken on a bigger role this
season 2 with Danny Jansen no longer part of the tandem and
with Heineman as the backup in the limited playing time that he
has gotten, he has taken advantage of every opportunity
that he has gotten. And you know it's not just the
(34:10):
offensively too, it's defensively as well where he
isn't costing you games. He's actually become one of the
best defensive catchers in a backup position in all of
baseball, which is incredible for the Blue Jays because with
Kirk's defence, that's that's given them one of the best
overall catching tandems in the major leagues.
(34:31):
And um, you know, I still remember back in the off season
looking at the very sparse free agent catching markets and, you
know, really just searching for answers in terms of how the Blue
Jays were going to fill that void further their catcher
position. And, and Tyler Heineman has
certainly run with that job and has quieted a lot of the
(34:56):
doubters and credit to him. And you, you spoke about it, the
journey that he has been on in his career, bouncing around from
organization, from organization,having to grind away in the
minor leagues. And now you look at it, he's a
backup catcher on statistically the best team in the American
League. I got one question for you.
(35:18):
And, and, and this catcher turned up like we said has been
probably probably top two, top three in baseball.
What kind of reminds you of in the past?
Would you go back to like to Diana Navarro, Russell Martin
tandem or would you go even further back with Pat Borders or
(35:38):
running or any, any other 10 of that that you could recall in
recent memory? Yeah, I think like it's just so
unique with Alejandro Kirk and Tyler Heineman.
I don't know if there is a really good tandem for them.
Like, you know, like the when, when Danny Jansen and and Kirk
were together in those 2122 years in the Blue Jays had one
(36:02):
of the best tandems in all of baseball.
Like that was the perfect mix ofoffence and defence.
And what they have now perfectlyillustrates that where Kirk is
top five, top three catcher all around catcher in the majors
this year with the offence and coming back in a big way and him
(36:25):
not losing anything on the defensive side.
In fact, he's he's gained more defensive value with how
effective he's been at throwing runners out, which is something
that he's had to work on a ton and even being able to increase
his arm speed has been really impressive too this year.
So yeah, I don't know, like, like I'm a big Russell Martin
(36:48):
fan. I always enjoyed his tenure with
the team, especially him being aCanadian, that just seemed like
a perfect fit. It really sucked seeing him play
for the Yankees and and even thepirate days too.
Like that was it just, it didn'tseem right.
He needed to come home. So the, the, the Blue Jays have
(37:09):
been very lucky with the type ofcatchers that they've had over
the years and with Kirk's now sign long term, it, it, it
really seems like they're, they got something good going behind
the plate for, for many years, which is, is certainly
beneficial because, uh, you know, they're, they're catching
depth in the minor leagues is certainly not what it used to be
(37:32):
going back to the time when theyhad a really good problem in, in
Kirk and Janssen and Gabby Moreno all on the same team.
With all the great performances this offence has had this year
with the Addison Bargers and theErnie Clements and and then you
got Joe Loperfido, Nathan Lucas,David Schneider, out of all the
(37:53):
guys that have really performed well on offence this year, who
would you say is the young son hero for this offence?
Yeah, that's that's a really good question because like you,
you can name any single one of them.
I I think probably Ernie Clementwould be my guy, just him
(38:15):
becoming one of the best hittersin all the baseball against
left-handed pitching and how he has helped transform the Blue
Jays lineup and given them, especially in the top half of
their order. Him being able to hit leadoff or
even in the two spots against left-handed pitching really just
(38:36):
has helped lengthen this lineup.And and Nathan Lucas has done a
very similar thing to against right-handed pitching.
But I think Ernie's a guy who coming into this season, you
really only expected plus defence out of him.
And he got off to a bad start too.
The the offensive numbers were not good in April and early May.
(39:00):
But the way he has come on sincethen has been really impressive
to see. And he's another guy too that
he's not used to this type of workload where he's an everyday
player. He's playing multiple positions
at a high level and and grindingpositions too, like third base
(39:20):
is not an easy job for a guy whoisn't used to being a full time
Major League player. And the fact that Ernie has been
able to give the Blue Jays Gold Glove level defence on top of
being a above average hitter as well has been really impressive.
And you know, he he has, he has certainly endured the ups and
(39:42):
downs of a 162 game season. I mean, about a month ago he was
saying how, how was he? He was experiencing fatigue at A
at a immense fashion for the first time ever at this type of
level. And so to see him get hot again
here lately has been really encouraging to see too.
(40:04):
And it really speaks volumes to the type of person and the type
of player. That, Ernie, is.
It's so crazy that you say that because, you know, it's so funny
to think that guys like Ernie Clement and Nathan Lucas are
from the Cleveland organization where Ross Atkins and Mark
Shapiro were at when they drafted him.
(40:24):
I think about a decade ago, I think Bernie was, and both
Nathan were drafted while Mark when Ross was there right at the
time. So.
Yeah, Ernie. Ernie was an A's draft pick up
or a free agent I believe. Yeah, mine would signing, I
believe that couple years ago. Yeah, I know he was drafted by
Cleveland in 15 say with Lucas. I was doing some research.
(40:45):
I was like, oh, I think I see the connection.
I think you spent spring training with the A's and they
caught him or something. Yeah, Blue Jays brought him on.
Do you think before, before I get to your next question, do
you think Ernie Clement has a good chance of winning the Gold
Glove as a utility man this year?
He damn well better man like I. Like that answer?
(41:09):
He he's just like the defence element of his game is, is
obviously his bread and butter. But like as somebody who has
played as well as he has on thatside of the ball, both at third
base and second base shortstop, like I remember the days too
where we were even seeing earning Clement taking some fly
balls in left field too, just because that's how talented and
(41:31):
versatile he is. So like, yeah, I, I think this
is, this is the time where he deserves recognition as one of
the better utility defenders in the American League.
And so I, I, I'm rooting for him.
I I hope he he comes home with some hardware this year, this
fall. So I want to talk about
(41:52):
Santander. I know that we talked a bit
about him and here he hasn't played majority of the year and
I don't know what's going on with the shoulder.
The last report that we were like we all were told is that it
was 70% progression. What does that mean?
Who knows right? Knowing that this team is hasn't
really revealed much about Santander, is there any possible
(42:17):
way that he still has a chance to be up at some point before
the seasons done? I know there's only about 7
weeks left in the season and andyou know time is kind of running
out, but is there any possible way?
I mean, there's there's always achance, right?
I think the Blue Jays are are certainly holding out hope that
(42:40):
he can come back in a meaningfulway because we can't.
If he can and if he gets back towho he was with Baltimore last
season, like that really adds a major punch to the Blue Jays
lineup. But it's just there's so much
unknown with him, right? Like there's a chance he could
(43:00):
start swinging about again this week or or next week.
But getting him on a rehab assignment is going to be tricky
too, just because you're starting to run up against the
end of the minor league season as well.
So I mean, I guess he could get reps down at the complex in
Dunedin and and try and get backinto baseball game shape there.
(43:24):
But it's just it it's so complicated at this point of the
season. So the odds are certainly
running against Santander being able to come back and and be a
meaningful addition to this team.
But you know, I guess, I guess we'll see.
Alex Manoah has had his regame, saw his rehab starts.
(43:46):
He's just made a start in Buffalo.
He's made his way through all four levels making rehab starts.
But he's, you know, it hasn't really gone too promising for
him. So is he more of a 2026 thing
than than a 2025 issue? Yeah, it's, it's certainly
(44:07):
looking like that, unfortunatelyfor him.
And you know, it's just, it comes with the territory of, of
rehabbing from a UCL injury. Those things always take a lot
of time and, and every pitcher responds differently,
differently to the, the treatment and the recovery
process. So after seeing him pitch for,
(44:29):
for Buffalo earlier today, him not even being able to go 2 full
innings for the Bisons, I, I definitely think it's trending
in that direction where he's somebody that probably just
spends the rest of this season at AAA just trying to log as
many innings and as many outingsas he can to prepare himself to
(44:54):
be an option as a Major League starter for the Blue Jays next
season. Because with Chris Bassett and
Max Scherzer becoming free agents this winter, you do have
some openings in the rotation. Shane Bieber as well, like if
he's healthy, he's opting out ofthat player option.
So they're, they're certainly counting on Manoa to probably
(45:15):
fill one of those two spots in the rotation next season.
And he's a guy too that still has a couple of minor league
options left. So you know you're not running
the risk of burning his final optionable year by keeping him
in AAA beyond his rehab window. But he's got a long way to go,
(45:35):
it looks like. I mean, the the fastball
velocity was really ticking downtoday.
He only averaged 91 mph on the fastball, topping out at 92.
I believe he threw more balls than strikes too.
So he even hit another batter again.
So the command is is certainly awork in progress with him too.
(45:58):
It's unfortunate because Alec Minor with a person, it is a
really easy guy to root for. And so you hope he can
eventually get back to the top of the mountain because he has
just been working his way tires tirelessly trying to get back to
where he was in 2022 as a Cy Young finalist.
(46:21):
But he he's still got a a long journey ahead of him.
Let's talk about the prospect perspective of this
organization. And it was a problem for them
the last couple years or so, given the fact that they had
they tried to recover from that blood bowl era of talent that
(46:42):
they had and built around with of course, and now it seems like
it's starting to turn the corner.
And if you look at last year, the wave was ranked, I believe
consensus sly it was Ricky Tiderman and roll this Martinez.
But so much has changed within aone year span.
And and if you look at now it's it's JoJo Parker.
(47:03):
The Arjun Amala is to trade savages, of course, right.
Like, however, you want to rank up because everybody has
different rankings. Like if you look at if you look
at the list and especially, you know, benefiting from last
year's trade deadline, how important is it now moving
forward, especially the way thisteam is built?
Yeah, it's massive, right? We, we, we saw the benefits of
(47:25):
the the system turn around at the trade deadline where the
Blue Jays were able to be aggressive because how, because
of how many success stories theyhad on the pitching side, where
you can trade away Cal Steven and Kendry Rojas and Iran Watts
Brown and still not be left witha completely bare system worth
(47:47):
of of pitching prospects. I mean really the the Blue Jays
are have certainly weakened their system a little bit by
those subtractions. Even MLB Pipeline still had them
at 20th overall, which is a significant jump considering
heading into the season they hadthem ranked 27th.
(48:09):
So the the Blue Jays system is still in a really good spot and
certainly from a high level talent standpoint.
The fact that the Blue Jays got through the trade deadline
improved their Major League roster and didn't have to give
away any of their top prospects in Yesavage, JoJo Parker,
Namala, Johnny King, Ricky Tiedeman, even guys like Gage
(48:32):
Stanifer and those type of success stories.
Those are the arms that you willuse to help replenish the depth
that the Blue Jays leveraged at the trade deadline.
And so hopefully moving forward,they can continue to have these
types of years where they have guys pop in the system and rise
(48:54):
through the minor league levels and allow them to continuously
go out and spend and be aggressive at the trade deadline
and and and continue to keep this competitive window open for
several seasons beyond 2025. Because as much as much payroll
flexibility as the Blue Jays still have, and as much of a
(49:14):
commitment as ownership has showed in being able to spend
money and invest into this roster and make the Blue Jays a
top five spending team in the majors, you still have to have a
a prospect system that you can dip into and use via trade to
help improve your team that way as well.
(49:36):
You know, it's funny that you mentioned about the Blue Jays in
their trade deadline and they really they gave up some guys,
but they didn't give up a lot ofguys to the point where they
completely bared their cover. Another, you know, restart
again, which, you know, I, I agree.
I think that's exactly how how Ifeel too, is that that, you
know, they gave up some guys, but it really didn't hurt him
(49:58):
all that much in the end. But let's looking at the
prospects like now that we currently still have, who do you
who do you feel like could be part of the factor long term or
maybe trade candidates in the offseason?
Yeah, so it'll be interesting. I think Trey Savage is somebody
(50:19):
that I would consider an untouchable.
I, you know, especially given how close he is to the Major
League level. I wouldn't be moving him for any
type of player. And I think with JoJo Charger
and our JoJo Parker and Arjun Namala, you now have a situation
where you have multiple guys in your system that could project
(50:43):
as franchise middle infielders, whether that's at shortstop or
second base. And with Bouchette future
unknown beyond this season, it really makes it interesting as
to what the futures of both of those guys are going to be long
term. But Johnny King is another guy
(51:03):
who's several years away. Obviously, he's only 19 years
old and he's currently pitching at Single A Dunedin.
But from what we've seen from him so far, he's got the
potential to be a frontline starter at the Major League
level one day. You know, he's still got a lot
of rawness to him and still there's a ton of development
(51:25):
still to go with him. But if everything clicks for him
over the next few years, that's another prospect that could
potentially help the Blue Jays either at the Major League level
with their own team or if they want to swing big.
He's somebody that they could attach to any trade package and
(51:46):
and really be able to go out andacquire an impact player to help
them now rather than having to wait 2-3 seasons down the road
for for Johnny King to help themat that point.
It's so funny that you say that because like, you know, I know
Shapiro when he was in Cleveland, he either acquired
(52:07):
talent out of nowhere and built the farm via trades, trading
some veteran to go get guys who are under control.
And you know, the way Cleveland operates, their bread and butter
is always been pitching and developing, right?
And could you see the same thingwith that with Toronto, the way
the farm is now kind of intact and trying to build around it
(52:28):
and the way the future it's built now, especially with more
prospects coming into the system?
Yeah, I think that's one way of doing it, right.
The draft also helps too. And the Blue Jays, by all
accounts, it seems like they hada really good draft again this
past summer. And so that definitely helps
support your prospect system, too, especially when you can add
(52:51):
a a talent like JoJo Parker to the mix, who immediately becomes
one of your top prospects in your system.
But yeah, I think it's all aboutplayer evaluation.
And like the Los Angeles Dodgersand the Tampa Bay Rays are two
of the best organizations in thebusiness at being able to scout
(53:11):
other teams, players, underutilize players and being
able to add them to their own organization, make a few changes
and then those guys pop for them.
And the Blue Jays have been ableto do a little bit of that here
too, especially at the Major League level with guys like
Nathan Lucas and Ernie Clement. But you know, you would like to
(53:31):
see them continue to pull off those types of surprise
storylines. Because obviously from a
financial standpoint, it really helps you when you can acquire
guys who are either pre ARB or arbitration or early in their
arbitration and years and and beable to have them be impact
players for you at a very cost effective figure.
(53:57):
Next question I want to ask you is looking at the schedule and
looking the way the schedule is going right now.
They're going through a little bit of a gauntlet right now, but
it seems like gauntlets are being a thing for the Jays and
they've been over covering teams.
If if you look at the way the seasons gone right now, they got
the Cubs for two more, they got the Rangers for three and then
(54:18):
they have somewhat of a lighter schedule, but you never know
because the Blue Jays don't playwell with teams that are sub 500
for some reason, right? But September seems like they're
going to go through a much, muchtougher schedule throughout the
way. If you look at they got the
Brewers, they got the Breads, they got the Yankees, they got
the Astros and and the last, I think the last two weeks they
(54:40):
got the the Red Sox or is it theOR is it the Rays or the Red
Sox, Rays, Royals. I think that somewhere around
there, but like how important for them to try to compete the
way they are, especially with reinforcements coming back and
the way their schedule is and how good of a team this Toronto
(55:00):
Blue Jays 2025 Jays team is. It is important.
I mean, they do, like the math says exactly that.
They have one of the tougher remaining schedules in the
American League. So did the Red Sox.
So that definitely helps from AAstandings perspective because it
seems like right now, the Red Sox currently have a better shot
(55:24):
of giving the Blue Jays a fight for the division than the
Yankees do. And the Yankees have the easiest
remaining strength of schedule in the American League.
So you can't count them out either.
But the key here for the Blue Jays is being able to one win
their division and then after that, you have to claim one of
(55:44):
the top 2 seeds in the American League.
And they're in a great spot to do that, right?
But they have to be able to holdon to their current position
because avoiding the wild card series is the should also be the
priority. Like you want to win your
division, you want to have home field advantage, but to be able
to get an immediate buy to a best of five series would be
(56:05):
massive for the Blue Jays, especially given their history
in the wild card series of late.Like those best of three series
are just so unpredictable. And when you look at the
potential competition that the Blue Jays could face in a best
of three series, especially froma pitching standpoint, you want
to do everything you can to not have to run through a Texas
(56:28):
Rangers team that could throw atyou Jacob degrom or and Nathan
he of ALDI in those first two games.
It just it makes all the sense in the world for the Blue Jays
to continue pushing towards having one of those top 2
records in the American League and giving themselves a little
bit of a rest for the first round and and maximizing their
(56:52):
chances of being able to go on adeep playoff run this year.
So Mark Shapiro had a presser this week, I believe was
yesterday actually, where he where he he talks about his
future possibly. And I wanted to bring up a
quote. He he had said he said, when I
(57:13):
think about alternatives, I've never been to grass is greener
guy. He goes on to say 24 years in
one place in Cleveland and 10 years here now.
So it's a preached the appreciation for what I have and
the people I get to work with every day, the city that I work
in, in the country that I live in.
Those things are drivers for me to remain here.
So and he's had contact. He's had contact with Tony
(57:36):
Staffieri and Edward Rogers about this and about his
situation. And we all know that, you know,
the Leafs had let go a long timePresident, yeah, Brendan
Shanahan. And then a few weeks later, the
Raptors let go beside jury. So and he's been here a long
time, so, you know, and they're not owned by MLSC.
(57:57):
So what are your thoughts on hisfuture and and do you believe
that he'll remain with the Blue Jays when the season is done?
I do, yeah. I I think we got more years
coming from Mark Shapiro with the Blue Jays.
It, it certainly sounded like things were headed in that
direction when Shapiro spoke to the media on Wednesday or on
(58:18):
Tuesday. And so I think it's different in
terms of comparing what the Leafs and Raptors had to do
under MLSE versus what Shapiro means to the Blue Jays, where
Shapiro has a hand in the business side, but also the
baseball side, too. And it's it's more of a rare mix
(58:40):
these days. You don't typically see a
president of baseball OPS being so involved on both aspects of
it. And March Paul has a great
relationship with Rogers Communications.
And you know, with the success that that the team has had this
year, I don't see any reason as to why they would want to make
(59:02):
it change at the top for the Blue Jays.
And I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Mark Shapiro get an
extension done and and same for Ross Atkins and and John
Schneider too. John Schneider has a an option
on his contract for next season.Ross Atkins will be in the final
year of his deal in 2026. So if things had gone different
(59:26):
differently for the Blue Jays this season and you know, they
had to be sellers at the trade deadline again and and fell out
of the mix and didn't make the playoffs, then sure, we could
have seen a bunch of changes made throughout the
organization. But winning is is the best cure
for pretty much anything in sports.
(59:47):
And with how well the Blue Jays are playing right now, I think
it's all up to whether or not Mark Shapiro wants to continue
working with the Blue Jays and buy all.
By all indications, it seems like that's where his priority
is. Before we had this I would I
(01:00:07):
still am enamored about Sundays game when Mason Flirty got 2
MVP's out and win the game. And it's so crazy to think
because there was some sort of historic stat with the Hoffman
to flirty. I believe that with Hoffman he
(01:00:29):
got five walks and .2 innings pitch and he got the win and I
think it was like a 1901 record and that Mason Flirty did
something no no closer has done since Trevor Hoffman which was
what, 98 getting 2 MVP's out to win the game.
Like when you witnessed that, what were your thoughts about
(01:00:52):
that and what was on your mind when you saw all that?
Yeah, I was, I was riding the roller coaster as much as
everyone. That was that was one of the
crazier and Wilder games we haveseen this season.
Just the oh, man, the the situation that Mason Flu Hardy
(01:01:14):
was put in there. It's just like, it's like not
even the fact that he's a rookie, but just somebody who
has to come in to a situation where the bases are loaded,
you're up by 1, there's one out in the inning and you have to go
up against Shohei Otani, Mooki bats.
And then after that you got WillSmith, Freddie Freeman and
Teoscar Hernandez. Like good luck, man, that is
(01:01:37):
just it's so unfair and the BlueJays have done this so many
different times already with Mason flu Hardy by just throwing
him into the fire and credit to him for coming out ahead.
Most of the time. It speaks to the the caliber of
player he is, but also just the the way he has has been able to
(01:01:58):
just calm his nerves and and pitch with ice water in his
veins. Really, because that was a a
beautiful strikeout of Shohei ina full count too, I believe.
Where was he? He was one pitch away from
walking in the tying run. And so, you know, that's
something that he's probably going to be able to enjoy for
(01:02:21):
the rest of his career, probablysomething that he can tell his
kids long after he's retired andand always have that with him
that he got out of that impossible jam and struck struck
out one of the best hitters of this generation.
It's been really impressive to see it.
Hopefully it can be a springboard moving forward for
(01:02:43):
flu Hardy because he, you know, we all remember the the rough
Rd. that he endured before he got the reset back at AAA.
And so if he can really build off of that and be more like the
pitcher we saw him earlier this season, who next to Brendan
Little formed one of the best lefty combos in the major
(01:03:06):
leagues, it would be really, really helpful for the Blue Jays
moving forward here. Thomas Bad, thanks for coming
back once again. We had a great time actually.
This was a fun episode, man, especially the way the Blue Jays
are playing right now. And great insight, great
information. Now where can we find you on
(01:03:27):
social media and everywhere else?
Yeah, it's always a blast catching up with you guys.
But yeah, I'm I'm on X or Twitter, whatever people call it
these days. My my handle is my last name
Hall on just under score Thomas and and another under score is
there all most of my work is canbe found at at at Blue Jays
(01:03:50):
Nation, but I also do a little bit of work for for MLB.com and
dine sports as well. So if you want have a read at
all that and you'll probably be able to hear me whether it's on
Sportsnet fan 590 in Toronto or sports 1440 in Edmonton.
(01:04:12):
I I'm usually pretty much everywhere that anyone's talking
about the Blue Jays. So.
But yeah, that's where you can find my stuff.
Yeah, man, this is this is so much fun.
We had a blast. Thanks for joining us today and
hopefully we can go for the three-peat.
Maybe in the offseason or something we can get you back,
man. Yeah, if the Jays going to deep
(01:04:34):
run, don't don't hesitate to give me a a hauler voice.
For sure, and we will place the description below where you can
find Thomas Sauza social media information and his credentials.
But till next time, take care, be kind to each other.
Signing up for this Blue Jays Ave. podcast on Wednesday,
(01:04:57):
August 13th, 2025. Yeah.
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