A Christmas Carol Unwrapped: Themes, Adaptations, and Traditions

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zinzi Bree (00:00):
Charles Dickens was a writer who frequently felt

(00:02):
like his characters, like oncehe found the right name for them
and spoke that name out loud,that character would appear to
him.
They'd be a real person whowould bother him, who would pull
on the sleeve of his elbow to belike, Hey, you need to come
write.
Welcome back to Book DragonBanter, a podcast where three

(00:23):
aspiring authors talk bookswe're fantasy focused, but not
exclusive.
join Sage, Katherine, and meZinzi Bree as we banter about
all things books.
seasons, greetings.
This is our Christmas episode,if you can't tell, for those who
are audio only, I am wearing aSanta hat and decked in red.
Sage and Katherine both decidedto go with green.
I'm in red plaid.

(00:44):
It's like this is the one time ayear that I willingly wear red
because the rest of the time I'min green.
'cause that actually is muchmore flattering on me.
But Christmas is the exception.
I don't care if it's not a goodcolor on me, it's the time to
wear it.
Thank you.

Katherine Suzette (01:00):
Sage is wearing green and has red
headphones I'm just in boring,whole gray.
So,

Sage Moreaux (01:04):
It is been a

Zinzi Bree (01:05):
Yeah.

We've been

Mm-hmm.

retreats.

Zinzi Bree (01:07):
Mm-hmm.
It's been a different vibe.
For our holiday special, wewanted to tackle a classic.
we decided to read a ChristmasCarol, this is a short, itty
bitty quick read.
I had never read it.
Sage, I believe, had not read itbefore.
Katherine is the only one of thethree of us.
Am I correct, Katherine, thathad had read.

Oh yeah, I,

Hmm.

I read it before, but it was like early
high school and I have like alittle story to go with it, so
we'll get there eventually.

think This is the first Charles Dickens book I'd
read also.
So that was kind of exciting forme.

Zinzi Bree (01:41):
I have watched a lot of dramas that are, movie
remakes of Charles Dickens'work.
but this is also a first,actually reading his written.
I think I've maybe seen likeexcerpts, or abridged versions
of his work.
But not anything in its full.
And this is just such a nicelittle.
package to get a tasting ofCharles Dickens, and his writing

(02:02):
style.

I assume the two of you have similar experience
where you've seen movierenditions or maybe the
theatrical renditions.
So you kind of know the storyalready, which does make it a
little easier in my mind to diveinto like a classic, especially
from so long ago.
It was written mid 18 hundreds.
anyway, so the language is,little more challenging.

(02:23):
It wasn't too bad, I didn'tthink, but knowing the story and
where we were headed helped me alittle.
I actually thought it was apretty easy read, but there were
a few parts where I was like,oh, that's what they're getting
at.

Zinzi Bree (02:32):
so yes, spoilers, although how do you spoil a
Christmas carol when there'salready been, there's like over
50 adaptations of it in, in filmand play.
so I don't, I don't know thatit's something that can really
be spoiled unless you've beenliving under a rock, in which
case, welcome to the world.
Glad you're here for Christmas.

Or modern western culture perhaps.

Zinzi Bree (02:53):
Oh, that's a good point.
Yes.
If you are listening not fromthe West, then it might be less
familiar to you.
Although I have a hard timeimagining that it hasn't a
Christmas Carol has never beenout of print, like, since its
first printing run.
it is the most well knownChristmas story outside of like
the nativity being considered aChristmas story.

(03:15):
So I have a really hard timeimagining that there wasn't some
version of it translated orremade even in other cultures
across the globe.
content warning.
We are an explicit podcast, sowe can give our honest,
unfiltered opinions, whateverthose may be.
seeing as this is a Christmasepisode, I, like a Christmas
Carol is not raunchy.

(03:36):
There's not, there's horror init.
Like this is, it's a ghoststory.
We'll see what we say by the,oh, no, actually I take it back.
There's a specific part that Iwanna talk about, that might get
us, and I have words, I havethings, I have thoughts.
There's so much, and we don'thave time for all of it.
A Christmas carol's written byCharles Dickens, in 1843.

(03:57):
something I found reallyinteresting doing some of the
research is, this is actually aself-published book.
Dickens Self-published this, hispublishers rejected it because
at the time, in.
England and Britain.
Christmas was not a wellcelebrated holiday.
it was not like it is now.
Boxing Day was a much moreimportant day, at the time.

(04:19):
And this is also the time wherelike Christmas trees had just,
the Royal family had juststarted bringing them over O
Tanenbaum, it came from Germanyover into England and had just
began so like a Christmas Carol.
This book is part of what,heavily influences the way that

(04:41):
Christmas is celebrated now, itis heavily influenced by a
Christmas Carol.
I have an icebreaker questionfor you guys.
I wanted to know out of,'causeyou know, Christmas Carol is
scourge.
Old, old, greedy, greedy, money,grubbing man, gets visited by
three ghosts.
The ghost of Christmas pass, theGhost of Christmas present and
the Ghost of Christmas future,during the course of these three

(05:04):
visits, it, leads him to make adramatic change in personality
and have a transformation of theheart and change his greedy
gritty ways.
but I wanted to ask you ladies,of these three ghosts, which one
haunts you?
the ghost of Christmas Pass?
The Ghost of Christmas.
Future.
The Ghost of Christmas Present,Katherine.

For me it is the Ghost of Christmas future
because I am one of thoseworrywart people who's always
trying to predict and figure itout.
And I'm not very good at justtrusting a, going with the flow.
So the fear of messing somethingup and current Christmases,
current holidays, current years,whatever, and then having some
kind of negative domino effectis definitely a fear of mine.

I guess I was gonna say, I don't feel haunted
by any of them particularly, butI'm gonna change my mind it's
gotta be Christmas present,because every year I'm like, oh
my goodness, how are we going tofit in all the things that all
the different family memberswanna do?
The expectations, the budget forall of the events and activities
and.

(06:09):
Gift giving that goes along withChristmas time.
And that causes me somelightweight anxiety.
Although I try generally not tofeed into the anxiety around
stuff, but that one does.
I think that one, that one getsme.
'cause I'm like, oh my God,we're

Zinzi Bree (06:25):
How do I do it all?

and there's all these different events and I
wanna do this one, but nobodyelse wants to do that one.
And they all wanna do this and Idon't care about that.
And it starts to overwhelm.

Zinzi Bree (06:35):
Mm-hmm.

to remember that it's for fun.

Zinzi Bree (06:39):
Yep.

It's a time of joyous engagement and these are
all supposed to be activitiesthat make us happy, not feel
pressured of required fun time.

Zinzi Bree (06:49):
this was not planned, but for me, it's
personally the ghost ofChristmas past that haunts me.
But, the reasoning is all thesame.
It's all about expectations.
the ghost of Christmas past forme is because, I grew up with a
really wonderful Christmasexperience.
I, the last several years havebeen striving to provide that to
my kids as well.

(07:09):
the come down Christmas morningand there's a bunch of presents
and it's all magical.
can I still make that magicalChristmas happen.
the comparison is the thief ofjoy.
I'm comparing my pastChristmases and trying to go,
how do I make this one as good,woomph.
That's not, that's heavy.

Yeah.

I think it fits in with the book because the story
is very much about this, likeextremely wealthy miser who
doesn't want to give, he won'tgive to charity.
He, talks about funding prisonsand this sort of thing.
He, says Baam bug all the time.

Zinzi Bree (07:44):
Anyone

anytime anyone tries to be kind to him, he's
rude.

Zinzi Bree (07:48):
doesn't feel himself, but he also is not like
giving

to

Zinzi Bree (07:54):
people

so that other people are in a position.
And I feel like that's veryresonant in our current state of
the world right now where a lotof

Zinzi Bree (08:02):
are struggling

lot of people

Zinzi Bree (08:03):
are,

not able to.
afford Christmas like they usedto.
Everything is

Zinzi Bree (08:09):
mm-hmm.

And you know, do we go in super debt to make
Christmas magical for ourchildren?

Zinzi Bree (08:14):
No.

that

Zinzi Bree (08:15):
The answer is no.

Now the answer is no.

Zinzi Bree (08:17):
Sorry.
Will I listen to my own advice?
Time will tell.

so, you know, the story is a classic for a reason
and part of it is that it isvery resonant.
And I imagine besides theChristmas joy and the idea of
like what Christmas looks like,it's also like what it means to
be a good human.

Zinzi Bree (08:35):
Mm-hmm.

How being kind to others, like, that's ultimately
to me what Christmas is about islike, it's, yes, there's the
childhood magic of coming andseeing all the gifts and like
that is, and Santa like that ismagical for real.
But over time, like the magic islike being together with people
you love and being happy withthem.

(08:57):
And that is what Scrooge endedup ultimately learning, right?
Is that he needed to feel thatjoy, and also help provide it
for others.

So maybe we feel it right now, but it sounds
like the Christmas Carol is aclassic because it is always
something that people,somewhere, some way can resonate
with.
when Dickens wrote it, betweenthen and now, that's why it's
never left print probably isbecause it's always been

(09:25):
relevant.

Zinzi Bree (09:26):
I couldn't help but read it and go okay, as a
reader, do I identify with theBob Crochets where I'm hoping
that all of the Ebony or Scroogeof the world are gonna, you
know, wake up and have, havebeen visited by these spirits
and are gonna be more generous.
I am a bit more of a cynic whereI don't feel like people are
reading this and identifying asoften with scrooge and the need

(09:49):
to be generous to be, moreopen-hearted.
Culturally, I think we'veshifted more towards.
Uh, a woe is me attitude.
Now, to be fair, um, BobCrochet, he's very humble.
He is in particular is verygrateful for what he has.
Even if it is an awful job forScrooge but even in that, he's

(10:09):
still humble.
as opposed to his wife whorecognizes that Scrooge is a
jackass and could be treatinghim better.
and is telling Bob, Hey, Scroogesucks.
All right.
So, we are trying to change ourstructure a little bit and we
wanted to do from the reader'schair.
We read it and the reader partof our brains, what did we

(10:31):
enjoy?
what were we surprised by?
what is the fun experience ofthe book versus the more
analytical that we will getinto, when we talk about it from
the writer's desk?
question for you guys is, hadyou seen a movie or play
adaptation first before havingread the book?
What was, your first experienceand what is your favorite

(10:53):
adaptation?

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (10:55):
My first experience with

Carol was the Disney version with like Mickey
Mouse and Scrooge, who I alwayswas a big Donald Duck fan.
And so Scrooge McDuck, likeperfectly cast, clearly named
after this character.

Zinzi Bree (11:07):
that was like,

my first, and then there was the Muppet version.
live

Zinzi Bree (11:12):
right?
So, and I have seen.

theatrical performances also, including a
beautiful one a couple years agoin San Francisco, which was just
like phenomenal.
And very different from MickeyMouse, same story, same general
messaging, but tone was verydifferent from like the for the
kids versions.

Zinzi Bree (11:30):
So it was really,

fun to read the story and kind of remember those
different things and see how, itvaried.

Zinzi Bree (11:39):
the thing for me is that I

generally go to the Dickens Fair every Christmas
season,

Zinzi Bree (11:45):
ooh,

Ooh.

it's in a big warehouse and it's set up to
look like Old England, like asif you're outside and there are
little shops and there is a teahouse and it's all based on the
mid 18 hundreds Victorian era.

Zinzi Bree (11:58):
ooh,

is wandering around and Queen Victoria gets
brought through on her chair andthere's pick pockets and there's
the docks and there's all theseplays about like historical,
fun, historical elements.
People dress up everybody, we

Zinzi Bree (12:11):
up

as a family and we go, and there's dancing.
And what

Zinzi Bree (12:14):
I.

was that I had not read, read this, right?
But when they talk about thefuzzy wigs and how they were
dancing and the Fuzzy wigshouse, there is the F wigs dance
hall, which is one of thesections of the Dickens Fair,
where you can go and participateand do

Zinzi Bree (12:28):
Ballroom dancing, actually.

I don't actually know how to do that.
So you can, I can sit and watchas the like fuzzy wigs dance
around with all of their friendsand it's, that was really a

Zinzi Bree (12:36):
fun

association to make for me.
So I was really loving that.

Zinzi Bree (12:40):
Do they do ballroom dancing or do they do like
Virginia real folk dancing whereit's, you can have more
varieties because those are verydifferent ballroom dance versus
like a Victorian party dancewhere you can, join in and,
yeah.

There's

Zinzi Bree (12:53):
Okay.

like the, where you line up and you, go around
and do like the reels and thenthere is some that is more,
waltzy

Zinzi Bree (13:00):
Okay.

style.
So a little bit of both

a good waltz

Zinzi Bree (13:04):
More than that, I love it.

on a waltz, to be fair.

helps a

Zinzi Bree (13:09):
Good.
Yeah.
Good lead is

does.

Zinzi Bree (13:12):
required.

Yes.

Zinzi Bree (13:13):
And

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (13:14):
I

vacation there.

Zinzi Bree (13:17):
in Victoria, in England, I don't, um, not

Fair, it

at the Dickens Fair,

Zinzi Bree (13:22):
I have left toilet.

go.

Zinzi Bree (13:24):
Yes.
I actually wanna travel at atime

I

Zinzi Bree (13:26):
just wanna have.

it modernized and

Zinzi Bree (13:27):
Mm-hmm.

the

Zinzi Bree (13:29):
You want the one day party and then you wanna go home
and lay down on the floor.
Um, at least that's what I want.

I can second it.

Zinzi Bree (13:37):
Yep.
I don't have a memorynecessarily of a first,
adaptation, but, Muppet'sChristmas Carol is very beloved
in my house.
We just watched it, while wehave decorated for Christmas.
And I think I've seen it mostyears of my life since it came
out at least once a year.

(13:57):
And it was actually really funthis time because I'd watched it
so recently and then read thebook is going, oh, this line is
directly taken from, the book atthe end.
when Gonzo, who's playingDickens says, and Tiny Tim is
not dead, like in the text ofthe book that is capitalized,
tiny Tim is not dead.

(14:17):
at the end of the story, likethat's, that's a direct,
narrative line that they bothshare.
And I appreciated those, seeingmore of those touches than in
that adaptation as well asseeing the things that, in the
book are much more horror basedand ghost story based.
the closest they get is,Christmas future being the most

(14:41):
haunting of the spirits and thedarkest that, Muppet Christmas
Carol really gets.
So that's Muppet Christmas.
Carol is, I love it because it'sso accessible and it gets to the
heart of the story.
and the warmth of a Christmas cCarol,

I have a controversial opinion.
the Muppets are actually.
terrifying to me

Zinzi Bree (15:03):
I, I'm

I'm not

Zinzi Bree (15:04):
not,

that

Zinzi Bree (15:05):
I'm not a doll person.

or anything.

Zinzi Bree (15:07):
puppets

are

Zinzi Bree (15:08):
scary.

I don't

Zinzi Bree (15:10):
So for you, this is a much more haunting look.
the Moffits Christmas hero isthe haunting version.

yeah, I would actually to hold somebody's hand
to watch the home movie all theway through for the Puppet, the
Muppets, that one is not gonnado it for me.
it is interesting that theChristmas Carol is like a horror
Christmas story that still has agood tale.
And am put in mind of theGrinch, which is actually a

(15:39):
movie that my family is morelikely to watch, at Christmas
time, and how much that may haveactually been inspired by
Scrooge and the ghosts ofChristmas, past, present, and
future,

Zinzi Bree (15:50):
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (15:51):
It's the same transformation story.

Yes, exactly.
that scrooge like demeanor toloving it almost to the extent
of excess and taking care ofother people and being
incredibly joyful and spreadingthat joy around is definitely
the theme in both of those.
but for the version that I sawfirst I saw of the movies first,

(16:15):
and actually I was.
Homeschooled in high school, oneof my mother's lessons for us
was to essentially watch all ofthe Christmas Carol versions
that were out at that time andread the book and do an analysis
of the differences.
we definitely put our heartsinto that one I refused to do

(16:37):
the Muppets.
I still refuse to watch it.
I think other family members mayhave seen it and I saw the
previews and I was like, not achance, no way.
That's not happening.
yeah, I saw them all and then Iread the book and then I did an
analysis.

Zinzi Bree (16:54):
speaking of analysis, having had movie
versions in your mind, first,were there things in, the book
version that surprised you?
the thing that

me, I have a really lovely, copy that was
illustrated kind of

Zinzi Bree (17:08):
somewhat recently

like definitely in this century, and had these
lovely little illustrations, butwas the descriptions of the
ghosts

Zinzi Bree (17:16):
and.

I think that the Ghost of Christmas future was
the most, like I expected withthe chains and the of grim
reaper style.
I'm just gonna hold this pictureup for those watching, but this
is like a cute picture here ofthe ghost of Christmas past and
he is this weird childish, like,you can't tell if he is a child
or old man.

(17:39):
the descriptions of those ghostsreally kind of weren't what I
remembered.
I haven't watched any of themovies recently, so I can't
identify that Not how they'redepicted, it wasn't how I
recalled

Zinzi Bree (17:53):
Mm-hmm.

least.

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (17:55):
I kind of wonder if the way that Christmas present
is depicted as someone who isjolly and large.
with the feast that he sits onwhen he gets introduced.
has filtered down to now why wedepict Santa the way that we do
as someone who is jolly enlarge,

that's

Zinzi Bree (18:18):
opposed to,'cause like Saint Nicholas is, I don't
think is supposed to be fat,until he becomes like the, the
Santa, but like, it's just, it'sthe back of my mind theory is
that because up until this book,as far as I know, like ghosts

(18:39):
were supposed to be spooky andscary.
Like a Jolly spirit, a jollyghost,

mm-hmm.

Zinzi Bree (18:46):
novel concept maybe.
So, if someone else did it, letme know.

Well, there was Casper, the friendly Ghost

Zinzi Bree (18:56):
Yeah.
But that, I mean, way laterSage.
Yes.
Way later.
Yeah.
And I, I don't think thatChristmas present is an
inspiration for Casper, thefriendly ghost.

No.

Hmm.
I wonder if like tales of, ofbenevolent Faye and things like
that though might have been the,the benevolent ghost
inspiration,

Hmm.

like, the hearth keepers and things like
that,

Zinzi Bree (19:20):
Maybe I do not know.

I do not know.

Zinzi Bree (19:22):
Yeah.
It just, it struck me,'causelike childlike ghosts or
spirits, I feel like those arenot unheard of, but just like to
have a, a jolly ghost

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (19:33):
that, that is a really unexpected twist.
because I mean, also speaking ofhaving a ghost story, a
Christmas Carol is a ghoststory.
Like I do not, Christmas is nota time for ghost stories.
Halloween is for ghost stories.
so even that concept of it beingin the past where that's what

(19:57):
Christmas looked like wastelling these spooky stories,
was surprising to me to learnabout.
And a Christmas Carol is notCharles Dickens only Christmas
ghost story book.
he has.
at least four, other Christmasbooks that he wrote.
Just this is the most successfulone.

I did not know.

Zinzi Bree (20:19):
And they're all short novelists,

Did he publish the Christmas Carol

Zinzi Bree (20:24):
chapter No,

week was released.
Maybe it was great expectationsor, or a different one

Zinzi Bree (20:29):
So Charles,

it back.

Zinzi Bree (20:30):
I dunno that,

just think that,

Zinzi Bree (20:32):
yeah.
Charles Dickens is his books andhis style of releasing chapter
by chapter.
he's the one that made thatserialization popular.
but he was not paid by word.
He was paid by like chaptersection.
so him just being verbose is hischoice.
That's not him trying to padwords to get more money out of
it.

(20:52):
but a, a Christmas Carol wasself-published, and written in a
matter of six weeks.
He was originally gonna write a,like a political pamphlet and
then decided, it would actuallybe better to tell what he wanted
to say, in the form of a story.
and then he took it to thepublishers and they went, no,

(21:13):
Christmas is not importantenough.
You've had a couple of flops.
Oliver Twist was great, but wehaven't had another Oliver
Twist, so no thanks.
so he, he went and he was like,I really believe in this.
I'm gonna take the risk andself-published it, the books
sold out all of the firstprinting sold out, before
Christmas.

(21:34):
but he, of the money that he putout for that first printing,
like his, it was like 2000pounds and his return was like
around 170 pounds is what hemade back in profit from that
first run, something like that.
and he was terribly in debt atthe time and was panicking,

(21:55):
trying to write this book sothat he could, keep his
extravagant lifestyle.
Is there anything else we wannatalk about from the reader's
chair?
Go ahead.

so Katherine had mentioned that she read a couple
of different.
Versions.

Zinzi Bree (22:10):
that,

me also to look for adaptations.
'cause like I said, I had seen abunch of television movie, and
theatrical versions,

Zinzi Bree (22:20):
But they're all very,

consistent with

Zinzi Bree (22:23):
the story and the one

I

Zinzi Bree (22:24):
came,

across I didn't get a chance to read the whole
thing.
is like a romantic called ahunt.
So Wild and cruel.

Zinzi Bree (22:31):
Hmm.

Did you read that one, Katherine?

No,

Okay.

Zinzi Bree (22:35):
have not heard about this.

Carol.

okay.

Zinzi Bree (22:38):
I was looking

so I was looking on

Zinzi Bree (22:39):
and

like, searching for a Christmas Carol.

Zinzi Bree (22:42):
mm-hmm.

looking for a Christmas Carol adaptation.

Zinzi Bree (22:44):
Retellings

definitely like it's a retelling, it's based on
the same concept the premise isthat there's this queen, It's a
queen who's very greedy andshe's young, but she's just new
to being a queen.
And she's greedy and she'sselfish.
and she cancels the winterfestivities because she had this
sad upbringing and she doesn'thave a lot of happy associations

(23:07):
with the season.
And then the Wild Hunt, which isa, folk

Zinzi Bree (23:12):
mm-hmm.

element that I love and have always been drawn
to.
So the Wild Hunt comes down tolike teach her the era of her
ways.
And there's these three likestrapping sexy members of the
wild hunt that come and haunther and convince her.
based on the description and theway it was going, it seems like
it's gonna have the same moralto the story just in a very

(23:36):
like, of hot, sexy Faye way thatRomantic loves these days is
very popular.
so anyone who reads the originaland is looking for like a modern
romantic retelling, that mightbe a fun take.
But I was thinking maybeKatherine had read that one
because you said you had a fewthat you had read.

but I was reading like versions and
adaptations of a Christmas carolSo they were all, the original
story,

Zinzi Bree (24:04):
a book that I just started that I'm four chapters
into B.k.
Borison's Good Spirits, which isa fantasy rom-com like romantic
that is based on, a ChristmasCarol in some ways, but it's a
retelling because the romanticinterest is the ghost of
Christmas past and he is

like the one I was talking about where it was the
wild hunt

Zinzi Bree (24:28):
yeah, maybe,

Romancey.

Zinzi Bree (24:30):
well, it's a contemporary novel.

it.

Zinzi Bree (24:34):
it feels more in vain with like the spirited
movie, movie musical so far.
but I'm really enjoying theaudio book version in
particular.
they have really good narrators.
I like the warmth of the, femalenarrator's voice.
And then, the male narrator, thecharacter's Irish, so the

(24:54):
narrator is doing an Irishaccent.
I don't know if he actually isIrish.
but I'm having a really goodtime because every time he's
talking, it starts making methink that I need to be doing
the accent.
And I just go into that upperregister where like there's so
much more air that comes out toyour mouth when you're trying to
do the accent.
Um, so I've just had, like,he'll, I'll be listening and
he'll say stuff and then I'll belike sitting there mouthing it
and I must look like a crazyperson, but I'm having a great

(25:16):
time.

do that too.

That's amazing.

authors and I'll just start repeating it.
I'll be like, okay, yes, I cantalk like them, or they'll do
some cockney and I'll be like,Hey, I could do that.
Hey, okay.

I don't do accents.
Sorry.
Nothing here.

I wanted to say that something else I was
surprised about, especiallybecause you guys were talking
about the naming conventions ofCharles Dickens, is actually
that, Bob Crochet, I, for somereason had forgotten that his
first name was Bob.
So when I was re-listening toit, just kept standing out to me
like I was doing the dishes andI was like, Bob, who in a

(25:54):
Charles Dickens universe iscalled Bob?
Like what?
There's nothing wrong with thename, but it stood out in
contrast to the other choicesmade for the book.
And I thought that that was an,an interesting choice,
especially since scratch it, itfits the universe that I believe

(26:14):
Dickens was writing.

Zinzi Bree (26:15):
Yeah, I was surprised.

a reader by the name Bob.

Zinzi Bree (26:20):
the name that is, is Stumping me, is Scrooge's
nephew.
Is his nephew named in the book,

I don't think so.

Zinzi Bree (26:28):
going along the continuing in the reader's
chair, something that made meuncomfortable as a reader, but I
think that was Charles Dickens'intention is at the end of the
interaction with, the ghost ofChristmas present.
There are the two childrenhanging onto his feet under the
robe.
one of them, it's a girl and aboy, and one of them is

(26:51):
ignorance is the name, and theother one is want.

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (26:57):
when applying that to your Christmas present, how
those are a drag, a literal dragon your feet is want and
ignorance.
I understand why that's not inthe Muppets version but like I
was both horrified andintrigued, to see it in the

(27:18):
story.
and just that is something Ithink is gonna stick with me
going forward, thinking aboutthe Christmas season,

hmm,

Zinzi Bree (27:28):
several of the other, moral points of a
Christmas Carol.
They've been so done.
I've heard them so much.
I don't take them in and this issomething that I felt was fresh
and that will stick with mebecause, I'm also in a place to
receive this part of the messageof this book.
Um, but it just, ituncomfortable

it

Zinzi Bree (27:51):
and it's the point.

very powerful.

Zinzi Bree (27:54):
Like,

I

Zinzi Bree (27:55):
I remember being kind

reading it and then having to reread that
section and it was only like aparagraph or

Zinzi Bree (28:00):
Yeah.

And agree,

Zinzi Bree (28:01):
Like very powerful

And for

Zinzi Bree (28:05):
such a

Small

Zinzi Bree (28:07):
bit of writing,

like sticks with

Zinzi Bree (28:09):
Mm-hmm.
And I agree like the, becausethe whole book is, you know,

Scrooge learning how to

Zinzi Bree (28:16):
change

and it happens in stages.

Zinzi Bree (28:18):
mm-hmm.

to recognize the or of his ways and see that

Zinzi Bree (28:22):
you wanna change things

throughout

Zinzi Bree (28:24):
the course

It doesn't

Zinzi Bree (28:25):
happen

at the

Zinzi Bree (28:25):
end

but this was like, whoa.

Zinzi Bree (28:28):
and kind of

not talked about again,

Zinzi Bree (28:30):
mm-hmm.

still

Zinzi Bree (28:32):
Yeah.
I did appreciate, seeing that ithappens in little bits and even
getting those thoughts of like,Scrooge Seas, his interactions
with Fezziwig as his boss whenhe was.
A young man, and then he makes aline about, oh, I wish I could
have a word or two with myclerk.
and he had like, there's thoserepeated like, oh, I've seen

(28:52):
this.
Oh, that makes me change myopinion a little bit here, a
little bit here, a little bithere, until, by the time we get
down to, Christmas future, it'sa much more drastic, oh no,
please.
I'll keep Christmas in myhearts.
And all the year long his, finalspeech that he gets, before
waking up and celebrating, ah,my bed post.

(29:13):
It's my bed.
It's Christmas day.
Throw the curtains open.
It's the Turkey still in thewindow.
I will not do the whole thing.
I'll stop there.
I like seeing that layeredthroughout, but it, even though
it is still a change in a shortperiod of time, you still, as
the reader are understandingthat it's happening for Scrooge,

(29:35):
in increments until he, youknow, has this transformation.
what to you guys makes aChristmas Carol timeless as a
reader.

Oh, it's

Zinzi Bree (29:46):
Seems like the,

The children hanging onto the ghost that I
think make it timeless.

Zinzi Bree (29:51):
I would say that is

applicable today as it was in the day that
wrote it, that this want, that,this desire and one's ignorance,
sometimes willful ignorance isdistracting and leads to this
very self-focused, way ofhandling one's holidays, if not

Zinzi Bree (30:09):
not

and it can spill

Zinzi Bree (30:13):
over negatively.

others for sure.

The like personal, how can I be a better person
daily, not just on Christmas.
How can I be more charitable inmy heart?
How can I be more loving and,yes to an invitation?
Go spend time away from workwith family or friends and

Zinzi Bree (30:35):
Mm-hmm.

you know, there's, so that's a piece that like each
one of us can take in.
But the, then there's the biggerlike thing about how it is, the
story is very.
Powerful I think probably sinceit was written, people feel

Zinzi Bree (30:47):
like, yeah.

rich

Zinzi Bree (30:49):
people

pay

Zinzi Bree (30:50):
out.

Help the world be a better place by sharing your
wealth.

Zinzi Bree (30:53):
I think that

like

Zinzi Bree (30:54):
like

hooks people.

Zinzi Bree (30:56):
Yep.
when it was published, the,charitable giving, post, the
Christmas carol coming out, itlike exploded.

Awesome.

Zinzi Bree (31:07):
Something that I think, that part of why a
Christmas Carol is timeless isbecause even though, Charles
Dickens was a professedChristian, a Christmas Carol
itself is not a Christian book.
There is, you know, there's, Godbless us everyone.
There's a mention of tiny Timand Bob Crochet going to church,

(31:29):
but there's, Jesus is not partof the book, right?
Like the, the Christian faithoutside of.
Those mentions.
ghosts and spirits are certainlynot, in this if, if, if it was a
Christian book, like they wouldbe angels, they would be
visiting angels, they wouldn'tbe haunts.
Right?

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Bree (31:50):
so it is not religious in that way, and I
think that's part of what it hasallowed it to be timeless
because it didn't getpigeonholed into like, oh no,
but that's a Christian book.
letting the morals be therewithout it being preached as a
specific religious tenant, Ithink is part of what allows it

(32:11):
to be timeless and adaptable.
Definitely.
And I think, like

as, cause

Zinzi Bree (32:16):
I would agree with you,

there is a few mentions of God in there, but it
doesn't have like a strongmoralizing around God says this,
or Jesus says this, right?
Like

Zinzi Bree (32:26):
Yep.

the moral is more about like being a good person I

Zinzi Bree (32:31):
I think as

is celebrated by people who don't have,

Zinzi Bree (32:36):
like,

I am agnostic and I celebrate Christmas'cause
that's how I was raised.
So we never went to church oranything like that.
But we still have, thecommercial version of Christmas
where there's presents andthere's Santa and there is still
the concept of like goodwilltowards people

Zinzi Bree (32:53):
and,

spending time with family and having like this
warmth through a cold, dark timeof the year.
That kind of stuff comesthrough.
But it's not anything to do withJesus being born, right?

Zinzi Bree (33:06):
Yeah.

other side of Christmas, of the American
commercial side of Christmas.
And this book worked great withthat because it kind of has,

Zinzi Bree (33:14):
a lot of the things you just listed are directly
from a Christmas carol that it'sdescended from this book
becoming, so prevalent andchanging the way that Christmas
was celebrated.

It is really interesting to me that this book
being, like when we were talkingabout what book to choose for
the podcast, like I couldn'tthink of very many novels that
were Christmas themed outsideromance novels that have like
Christmas

Zinzi Bree (33:41):
mm-hmm.

but I couldn't think of

Zinzi Bree (33:44):
Anything that,

like a classic where like, this is the book
outside of this one.
And

Zinzi Bree (33:49):
yeah.

that it is Christmas, but it is not

Zinzi Bree (33:51):
Mm-hmm.

terribly religious.
It, it's, it's fascinating.

Zinzi Bree (33:55):
Yeah.

it

Zinzi Bree (33:56):
the definitely

a moral story as opposed to.
A religious story in this case.
You know that said though, Ilove the magic of Christmas and
I would love to believe thatthere is an embodiment of this
Saint Nicholas spirit or eventhe ghost of Christmas, past,
present, and future that visitpeople.

It does make me wonder,

past, present, and future of Christmas

Zinzi Bree (34:16):
to the writer's desk I didn't have a chance to read
the book of, the Man whoInvented Christmas, but I did
get to watch a movie that was anadaptation.
it does have somefictionalization, to sort of the
autobiography elements ofCharles Dickens writing a
Christmas Carol.
but it was really fun to see.
Charles Dickens was a writer whofrequently felt like his
characters, like once he foundthe right name for them and

(34:38):
spoke that name out loud, likethat character would appear to
him.
Like they'd be a real person whowould bother him, who would
like, pull on the sleeve of hiselbow to be like, Hey, you need
to come write.

that.

Zinzi Bree (34:51):
so something really fun that they did with this
movie is they had these actors,the actor who played Scrooge,
like he was basically a ghostwho was haunting, was Dickens as
he was trying to write, AChristmas Carol.
Yeah.
And you got to see kind of likehow, Charles Dickens drew
inspiration from differentinteractions around him that he
had.
He had a little book that hecarried around with him, and he

(35:13):
would write down any interestingname that he came across.
So he'd have a book of names andthat's what he would use to,
then name his characters later.
So it was just, a very, fun wayof getting some insight into the
creation process of this book.
So I recommend giving it awatch.

(35:33):
There's also a rumor, and thiswas something that was
interesting, but there's also, arumor or a belief that Charles
Dickens was bipolar.
part of the genius of him andhis ability to, create so many
works of, value to literaturewere created during manic times
of being able to scribble andget a ton done.

(35:56):
but then he would have low lowsand go on, lots of midnight
walks through the city, which ispart of why they think that's
part of the diagnosis for,bipolar apparently.
he's a prolific letter writer.
to

have texting.

Zinzi Bree (36:09):
to understand his life and his process and things
like that.
I have something.

the writer's

Zinzi Bree (36:14):
Mm-hmm.

share that

Zinzi Bree (36:15):
Yeah.
So I was,

at the beginning of the story thinking from like
a writer perspective and whatkind of current modern
sensibility around storytelling

Zinzi Bree (36:24):
mm-hmm.

and are there prologues

Zinzi Bree (36:26):
the

whatever.
And at the

Zinzi Bree (36:27):
very beginning,

like literally the second paragraph of the story.
He talks about how old Marleywas as dead as a

Zinzi Bree (36:34):
door,

old Marley was as dead as a

Zinzi Bree (36:36):
door

And then he

Zinzi Bree (36:38):
goes, this thing about

how not.
knowing

Zinzi Bree (36:41):
it a coffee nail?
Why is it dead As a doornail,

nail?

Zinzi Bree (36:45):
I was like, this is such clear narrator voice that I
was like, okay, I'm here.
I'm being like, I am sitting inthe room and Dickens is telling
me this story.
it's not Scrooge telling me thestory.
It's Dickens.
And I love the narrator's voiceand I love when the narrator has
so much personality.
I feel like that's so much rarerand harder to find.
I miss it.
I love that.

(37:06):
I love a narrator who's like upin all of the characters'
business.

Yeah.
And like it's his voice and it'sunique and interesting and I
feel like everything is, not tosay everything,'cause there's
plenty of unique books out thereand plenty of different author
styles, but I definitely feellike there's this expectation of
what it, if you wanna bepublished, you have to fall into
this category.
I mean, you're saying he didself-publish, so I don't know.

Zinzi Bree (37:35):
This one?

it had to do with that.
It had to do with, the Christmasnot being a popular

Zinzi Bree (37:39):
Mm-hmm.

time of year.

Zinzi Bree (37:40):
At the time.

that.
it immediately was like, oh,this is gonna be a unique story.
I'm excited to read it fromparagraph two.

Yeah, and I mean, despite the fact that it
was a ghost story, it still setthe scene for me to feel like
Dick.
Sat me down by a fire and wewere having this talk.
And then he starts in on hisstory and he has a very personal
side note about door nails thatI could totally relate to.
And I was suddenly like, oh,that's funny.
And it set me up as a reader tobe ready for him to like open

(38:09):
the book and start telling thestory.
And he closed it in a verysimilar manner

Zinzi Bree (38:13):
Mm-hmm.

comments from the narrator, it's almost like
you could feel the cinematicpulling away from the story.

Yeah.

I think that that is incredibly unique to
him.
also looking back at books, preabout a hundred years ago, the
narrator voice was more common,than we see it now.
And maybe it was not always doneconsistently well, but I see it
a lot more and I see a lot ofcharacter in that from the

(38:43):
authors behind these stories.

There was almost more character in the narrator
and in Scrooge than there werein some of the like side
characters

Zinzi Bree (38:50):
absolutely.

right.
Bob Raett didn't feel as, Imean, he was in the story
enough, but he didn't feel likeas mean of a character as he as
in some of the cartoonretellings and retellings.

Zinzi Bree (39:02):
more about Bob Crochet and Tiny Tim in the
Muppets Carol because you'recarrying, you know, just like
with, fan fiction is you'recarrying all of your care and
love for the Muppets if theywere part of your childhood into
that version of the story, asopposed to just meeting the
characters freshly without the,that extra weight to them.

And without the author, like really making you
care about

Zinzi Bree (39:26):
Mm-hmm.

to spend time on the page to do that.
Right.

Zinzi Bree (39:29):
for such a short book, something I really admire
is like Scrooge is reallydepicted as awful.
He's mean to his nephew.
this was the note that I wantedto come back to after seeing the
movie Adaptation, which is aChristmas Carol adaptation
spirited with Ryan Reynolds and,will Ferrell, and there's an
entire song called GoodAfternoon.

(39:50):
How Good Afternoon is Basicallysaying Fuck off to people.
And he says it to his nephewlike three times in the book,
good afternoon.
So every time I was like, sohe's, he's ba he's telling his
nephew to fuck off like multipletimes there.
And I just started laughing.
Yep.

It's a very polite way you can say it in any
company.

Zinzi Bree (40:12):
I was just like, thank you to that movie for
forever changing my perspectiveon good afternoon.
and then seeing it herespecifically in a Christmas
carol that was extra fun.

For did this really bring up theme to you?
Like at from the writer's desk,the writer's perspective?
Were either of you consideringthroughout this the strength of
theme in one story?

Zinzi Bree (40:35):
hmm.

I was definitely in mind of that,

Zinzi Bree (40:39):
I struggle to write theme.
That's one of the things thatfor me, I don't write two theme.
It's I write story and then Isee what, my character's
decisions were that organicallylend itself to a theme.
And then I have to go back in,in a later draft to like, bring
those thematic tones out moreand layer it throughout the

(41:00):
course of the story instead ofjust like, okay, this is what we
ended up with at the end.
but to be able to do that in,this is what 90 pages, maybe
that's something that I need totry doing in such a, you know,
to do a novel, to do a shorter,tight.
Thematic work, may just be areally good exercise in building
that muscle, because I think alot of the books that really

(41:21):
matter and become timeless andbecome classics are books that
are built around a theme thathave something to say that
aren't just, this is here forfun and you're eating it up like
potato chips, right?
Like, there's plenty of thosebooks and they are fun.
but they're not gonna be on yourlist of, this is my favorite of
all time.

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Bree (41:39):
They're not gonna be the, I go back to read this
every year during the holidays.

I hear you.
But that's very interesting theway that you describe your
writing process.
Because for

Zinzi Bree (41:48):
For me, I,

similarly and I think a lot of other authors,
especially those on thediscovery side of things, feel
the same way.
But theme helps us to clarify inour revisions

Mm-hmm.

we're communicating to our audience.

Zinzi Bree (42:00):
I wonder

Dickens didn't start out with

Zinzi Bree (42:03):
with.

theme as his premise.
He had a very distinct messagehe wanted to communicate about
Scrooge and about selftransformation.
And especially how the holidayswere a great opportunity to lean
into the person you actuallywant to be, as opposed to the
person that steals joy from allof these other people.
I wonder if Dickens didn't startout with the theme as his

(42:26):
premise as opposed to like thoseof us who are more discovery,

Mm-hmm.

an

Zinzi Bree (42:31):
as oppossed to

a fun.
Idea, and then we figure it outlater from there.

I, generally I am like a combination of a
discovery writer and anoutliner, so I will have.
Ideas come to me that are likecharacters or scenes that like
come from the universe into mymind.
And that starts me off tellingmyself a story in my head.

(42:58):
And I actually do that a lotmore before I actually sit down
and start writing words down onthe page.
And then I will start writingand I will start outlining,
almost simultaneously.
So I will be writing and then Iwill take a break and I'll
outline and I'll do morewriting.
And then ultimately I have asuper, super messy draft and I
go back and do a reverse outlineand a clean draft to then revise

(43:24):
to actually get to the pointwhere I could publish it.
But, definitely theme starts tocome in at some point for me
where I start to notice, like asthe story is evolving, I start
to notice these elements that Ididn't necessarily come up with,
but I will start to considermore.
and I think for Dickens, like Ican see this being almost like

(43:44):
answering a thematic question.
So what can turn a miserly mansomebody generous could be your
thematic question.
What does it take

him.

for a miserly man to Yeah, you Yeah, exactly.
You show him how nobody gives ashit that he's dead, what you
know, when he dies.

They're gonna take everything he's spent all
these years obsessed withcollecting and they all just
take it as if it's nothing, asif it's their due for putting up
with him.

Yeah, seriously.
And it's all gone and there'snothing to remember him by.
Right.
There's no fond memories andthere's no material possessions.
so yeah.
But, I can see him, especiallyfrom what Zinzi said about his
backstory, I can see of Dickenshimself.
I can see him having this ideain his head of the story he
wanted to tell, and then kind ofcrafting the characters, around

(44:37):
that.
Or maybe Scrooge came to him, asa character that had that story
and then he built it.
I would think that he had thetheme in mind early on,
especially since it sounded likehe wrote it pretty quickly.
he had a story he wanted to tellwith a moral I'm not trying to
get across a moral message.

(44:58):
I'm trying to create a storywith characters that is
meaningful, where there isgrowth and whatnot.
My general themes tend to be alittle broader of like finding
balance and stuff like this.

I think it's interesting every single
writer's

I,

is different, and I really wish I could talk
to Charles Dickens about howthis story developed for him,
because maybe he discovered it.
Maybe he had a weird trip and hewrote the premise of the story
and then he was like, oh, now Isee it.
Now I have a theme.
And then he revised itaccordingly maybe he was like, I
really need to write theme.
How am I gonna do it?

(45:37):
Especially because of whateverpolitical or social things were
going on at the time.
And then the Scrooge came to himand then the ghosts came to him.
Like, how do I force Scroogeinto this change?
Oh, well maybe it's ghosts.
I really wish I knew what camefirst for him.
The chicken or the egg.

Zinzi Bree (45:53):
I added a little additional section about, making
Christmas cozy because, it wasreally depressing to me after I
learned the extra backgroundinformation about Charles
Dickens and it kind of, itcolored, a Christmas Carol.
I wanted this episode to be morefun and lighthearted.
I was hoping it wouldn't getsuper, political or, here's, I

(46:15):
mean, we went political, wewent, religious differences and
christmas is normally the timeof like, put that all aside so
everyone can be together, right?
Like that's,

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (46:24):
but I personally am like, no, you can bring that to
the table and have a healthy,respectful conversation even if
you disagree on things.
that's what I would prefer.
But anyway, I, for myself waslike, I am in this negative
mindset.
I really need to get out of it.
I'm gonna go researchjolabokaflod, which is, the
Christmas book Flood, anIcelandic tradition, where it is

(46:45):
a book exchange celebrated onDecember 24th.
everyone exchanges a book.
You get your book, you get hotchocolate, and then you go read
that book.
that's your day.
That is the, that's the wholething.

it.
please.

Zinzi Bree (46:57):
and you go read.
So now, personally in myhousehold doing that on December
24th is not, not gonna be anoption, whatsoever,'cause family
partying and all that.
but I do still think that theidea of jolabokaflod, this like
self-care.
I'm gonna have a book, I'm gonnahave my hot chocolate, I'm gonna
have a, a cozy minute and justenjoy my book and fully, a step

(47:22):
back from all of the otherbusyness of the season.
Like I feel like this is anopportunity to do that.
But I think especially as a momwho has to make the magic happen
is really important to also takethat time to make magic happen
for myself.
That's, you know, self-caremoment.

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (47:43):
so personally what I'm hoping to do, the day after
Christmas, when everything hassort of calmed down and the, the
craziness is done.
So December 26th can be all abook of flood and you get your
book, you get your hotchocolates, you have your day of
rest to read and go, just, takecare of yourself and rejuvenate,
post Christmas if that's whatyou need.

it.

Zinzi Bree (48:05):
but

that too.

Book of Flood instead of Boxing Day.

Zinzi Bree (48:10):
I don't actually know like, what is Boxing Day?
I don't know anything about thatholiday or why it's celebrated.

I thought it was when you boxed up stuff and gave
it to charity.
so like,

Zinzi Bree (48:21):
whatever.

I'm gonna put it in the boxes and donate it

Zinzi Bree (48:24):
This is my ignorant American showing, but I
literally thought Boxing Day hadsomething to do with the sport
like that.

yeah.

I thought

Zinzi Bree (48:33):
like a sport holiday.

stuff that you didn't like that you got for
Christmas and send it back tothe return desk.

Tell us what it actually is.

Zinzi Bree (48:41):
I may have to cut this'cause I don't want us to
look super ignorant guys.

Ignorance

Zinzi Bree (48:46):
and,

want clutching up my legs right now.

Zinzi Bree (48:49):
yeah, for sure.

yeah.
I just wanna say, I did, boxingDay is the day of giving
Christmas boxes of gifts, money,or leftover food to the servants
or tradespeople who worked onChristmas Day.
So who didn't get that day offas a holiday then, that's the
day that people

Zinzi Bree (49:08):
so then is,

them

Zinzi Bree (49:09):
Boxing Day where we got the Christmas present
exchange part of Christmas andthen the meaning of Goodwill
part was the Christmas Caroltrickle down?

Possibly.
And then it was also that, itused to be on December 26th, St.
Stephen's Day or St.
Stephen's

Zinzi Bree (49:24):
mm-hmm.

was when you would open the church alms boxes and
distribute that to the poor.
And so that's like a similarthing with

Zinzi Bree (49:31):
Hmm

being given to the poor.

Zinzi Bree (49:33):
Yeah.

But now we know.

Zinzi Bree (49:35):
so follow up question that I feel like I have
to ask.
having read Christmas Carolhaving a big theme of it being
generosity, did it make youthink about, oh, this is
something, an area.
Yourself that like, okay, I can,for example, my kid's school is
currently doing a food pantrydrive.
and I don't have a bunch ofcanned food sitting around that

(49:57):
I can give, but I do have, newtoiletries that are just sitting
in my, closet that I can donate.
You know, like toothbrushes thatthe dentist keeps giving me that
are still in their packaging.
but I'm never gonna use becauseI have an electric toothbrush.
Those are things that I candonate that's like part of that
generosity.
Did reading this trigger any,thoughts of a generous action

(50:18):
that you can do for theChristmas season?

liked giving, to the, toy drive

Zinzi Bree (50:25):
Mm-hmm.

in my city.
And that way my kids are veryfortunate and get toys at
Christmas.
And this way I can make surethat other kids that are less
fortunate can also have toys.
I used to make, when my kidswere younger, it was kind of a
mean mommy thing.
I used to make them go with meand pick the toys out and then
not get to keep

Zinzi Bree (50:41):
Oh,

wrap them and give them away.

Zinzi Bree (50:43):
that's so rough.

it was rough, but it was also like, look, you're
gonna get all

Zinzi Bree (50:47):
Yeah.

on Christmas and this is an opportunity for you
to pick something, you know,another kid would like and give
it.

Zinzi Bree (50:55):
yeah,

so

Zinzi Bree (50:56):
that's the one.

to do.
I will do, canned goods andstuff like that

Zinzi Bree (51:00):
Mm-hmm.

but the boxes I see around town are definitely
more like the toy drive boxes.

Zinzi Bree (51:05):
I wouldn't say that.

the book made me think about that more as zzi
what you made a point earlierhow, my mind was immediately
like, all those super richpeople need

Zinzi Bree (51:16):
Mm-hmm.

as opposed to like, oh, I personally can also
do more.
but I don't know that it alwaysjust is like about Christmas.
It's like I try and do somethroughout the year and this is
a nice time to do more.

Zinzi Bree (51:31):
Well, and especially because they're, you can do
more, but there's alsoorganizations ready to receive
more

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (51:40):
and equipped to make a bigger impact than at other
times of the year.
Maybe more needed this year thanit has been?

A hundred percent.

Hmm.

I would love to do the, cozy up for holiday
reading.

Zinzi Bree (51:52):
Yes.
We can do this real quick.
so I'm just gonna go with cozyreading.
my personal vision forjolabokaflod to cozy up for
reading will be sitting in thischair, with a hot chocolate next
to me.
My coziest fuzzy socks, a heatedblanket, and a book that I will
be reading both, as an ebook andalso listening to the book.

(52:13):
So, my coziest version ofgetting to Enjoy the book is an
immersion read.
that will be my cozy readinggoal for Christmas.

I love it.
I always like to give a gift ofa book to everybody that I gift
to.
My version of a Cozy Christmasis going to be to give the
members of my immediate familybooks so that

Zinzi Bree (52:34):
We can all

sit together, on the couch with blankets and hot
chocolate or chai and read atthe same time in silence,

Zinzi Bree (52:43):
So you'll, that's already doing a jolabokaflod.
You already have a down Sage.

I love it.

I love that too.
On the 26th, I would really liketo curl up in a big chair or on
my bed and read, just permissionto not

Zinzi Bree (52:59):
Mm mm-hmm.

Yeah.
It's only one day a year.
That's a quote, by the way, froma Christmas carol.

Zinzi Bree (53:06):
Yep.
Only one day A year.
That you get, a paid holiday.

holiday.

Zinzi Bree (53:11):
This has been Book Dragon Banter.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
please give us a review, that'sreally essential and really,
helps us know that we're doing agood job and, makes us more
visible to, potential newlisteners.
I wanted to put a plugin here, Icame across a YouTube video,
from Topfers Library that had alist of holiday reads You'll
love, no matter what kind ofreading mood you're in.

(53:33):
And it was a really great listand I'm gonna have the link in
the description.
'cause I really liked the booksthat he recommended.
outside of our podcast, we have,book Dragon Inc.
Writing retreats.
And I personally host, WriteWith Me, Zinzi Bree, which is a
live Zoom coworking writinggroup.
more information about that andour social media is all down in

(53:55):
the show notes.
thank you so much for joiningus.

happy holidays.

Zinzi Bree (54:00):
Happy holidays, Merry Christmas and we will see
you in the new year.

Bye everyone.

Zinzi Bree (54:07):
Bye.
we didn't even do bookrecommendations and I have not
read this yet, but I'm soexcited, to read JRR Tolkien's
letters from Father Christmas.

Oh.

Zinzi Bree (54:28):
he wrote all of these, and illustrated them for
his kids.
And it's all about

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (54:33):
Santa Father Christmas.
and one of his assistants is apolar bear who keeps like,
messing things up and Santa hasto go fix it apparently.
so that's the kids adaptedChristmas Carol.
And then, JRR Tolkien's lettersfrom Santa are my plans.
Read to my kids.
this December, my read alouds.
Mm-hmm.

I have one that is also a children's book, so I
have a Christmas themed bookthat I read to my kids a couple
of years ago.
I thought it was a lovely read,even as an adult, but it is
definitely like a middle gradechildren's novel writing style
and everything.
It's by Love Grossman, who WroteThe Magicians, which I is a

Zinzi Bree (55:14):
Mm-hmm.

I've really love.
it's called The Silver Arrow.
And it's about a child who isgifted a magical train by her
uncle.
Gives me a little bit of theNutcracker vibes, which I
always, the Nutcracker was,that's my big Christmas
association is the Nutcrackerstory.

Zinzi Bree (55:29):
kind of hoping we do Nutcracker as our theme for next
year's Christmas.

Yeah, I love that one.

for it.

So in the

Zinzi Bree (55:37):
Arrow.

the kids go on a magical train ride and it is so
beautiful, fantastic.
They have animal friends thatthey come across and it's
contemporary in the sense thatit takes place in modern times.
But the story is so magical andI really like, I still think
about it as an adult, just like,maybe I'm gonna reread that this
Christmas.

my Christmas book that I've already decided
that I wanna read is actuallythis retelling of Rumble Still
Skin, which apparently is reallypopular already in a lot of
circles, but it's silver

Zinzi Bree (56:06):
Something,

and it's

Zinzi Bree (56:07):
spinning Silver by Naomi Novik.
Yes.

Yes,

that's on my list too.

that is what I want to read over the
holidays.

I love her.
I can't wait to hear how youlike it.

Zinzi Bree (56:19):
I'm gonna send you guys the links to, Topfers
Library, his holiday reads list,because like it's, it has some
middle grade books.
It has some like horror books.
It has.
So, the author who wrote SlewFoot that you liked, right,
Katherine.
he has a Krampus book

ooh.

Zinzi Bree (56:38):
that he,

even

Zinzi Bree (56:39):
that Arthur did.
so like that's on the list, butalso the Green Glass House,
which is a middle school readwhere it's like an, an enchanted
hotel gets full above gueststhat aren't supposed to be there
and a kid has to go, but there'salso like, here's Christmas
murder mysteries, and like, it'sa whole fun list.
Yeah.
I was like, all of these soundfantastic.
they're not typical because mostof the books that I'm seeing,

(57:00):
particularly on book talk andgetting advertised are much more
the Christmas rom-com, basicallya Hallmark movie as a book.
And like, that's great.
But those are onetime reads orthey're potato chip reads and
I'm looking for something moresubstantial during Christmas.

I love the idea.

Zinzi Bree (57:19):
I love.

you gotta mix some potato chips with some protein,
you know, and some vegetables.

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