Did Marketing Make You Read It?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zinzi Bree (00:00):
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to Book DragonBanter, a podcast where three
aspiring writers talk all thingsbooks.
we're fantasy focused, but notexclusive.
We chat about what tropes welove, what characters we love to
hate, and everything in between.
I am Zinzi Bree Joining me aremy co-hosts Katherine and Sage.
Welcome.
And our lovely listeners whohave stuck around.

(00:20):
this is episode four.
Thank you for listening this faror coming back, or if you've
just discovered us.
Welcome.
I hope you've been enjoying sofar.
Today our topic is a didmarketing make you read it?
And if you listen to a previousepisode, we immediately had a

(00:42):
"Yes, marketing did!" FromKatherine.
But we're gonna get into it alittle bit more.
We're gonna do some dissectionon how effective marketing is.
When marketing goes wrong, doesthat make you not wanna read a
book because it gotcontroversial.

Sage (00:57):
Book Dragon Banter is rated explicit.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coa (01:00):
If you're worried about Spoilers,
check the show notes below.
However, if you don't mindspoilers, then please continue
on and we'll just surprise youalong the way.

Zinzi Bree (01:06):
did marketing make you read it?
Yes.
Blanket answer.
Yes.
Like marketing does get me.
I'll reframe for you, guys, howdo you pick your books?
Do you go on bestseller lists?
Do you go on social media andlet something tickle your fancy?
as a mood reader, I feel likeI'm in the mood for romance?" Is
it that general or do you feellike,"I'm in the mood for a

(01:28):
romance that is a one bed trope,that is a enemies to lovers
trope?" How specific do you getif you're in your mood reading,
narrowing down your field foryour book choice?
That was mostly aimed atKatherine because she's our
proclaimed mood reader out ofthe three of us,

Katherine Suzette | Book C (01:47):
yes, sometimes I do get that specific
with my desires, but usually Ihave my TBR lists organized and
I can just go scroll through andbe like, oh, okay, this one is
fantasy set in some darkacademia background in an
alternate verse.

(02:07):
Okay, great.
That sounds like what I wantright now.
Whereas sometimes I'm like, Iwant a cute, cozy, non-fan about
writers, which is what I've beenreading this week.
I

Zinzi Bree (02:18):
Oh,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coac (02:18):
I need something super relatable
and super easy and super cute.
I looked through my list and Isaw like how to murder for
authors or so something likethat, and I was like, hell yeah,
and it is fantastic.

Zinzi Bree (02:32):
you have your TBR organized, is it written out in
a spreadsheet?
Is it

Katherine Suzette | Book Co (02:37):
not

Zinzi Bree (02:38):
are you just going and asking Google?
What level of organization doesyour TBR have?

Katherine Suzette | Book (02:42):
Yeah.
So I don't organize my wishliston Amazon, but in my library app
I can add anything that's in thelibrary.
I have several library cards.
I will add those two differentlists and I can create as many
lists as I want in the libraryapp.
And there are some other thingsI can go into chirp or
audiobooks.com or Google Playand find them or hoopla,

(03:06):
something like that.
Generally organize my lists inmy library if they have that
book, otherwise.
If I see it, I'll get it nexttime.

Sage (03:16):
I'm also a mood reader in the sense that I base my next
book choice a little bit on whatI just read.
So if I just read somethingreally light and easy, then I
might be ready for somethingmore epic and world building
intensive.
I love Epic, but I sometimesdon't have the brain power or
wherewithal or time.

(03:37):
I know that it's a busy week andI'm just not gonna have the time
to invest in getting to know thestory right away.
So I will go for something alittle lighter.
actually have my.
TBR list handwritten in myjournal, but I also have like an
ongoing list of books on hold atthe library for my e-reader.

(03:58):
So to a certain degree, I'mwaiting for books, like whatever
pops up that week is available,then I choose between those
items.
I haven't actually did a reallynice job this time of color
coding.
I'm not usually this organized.
I think I was trying, probablysupposed to be writing my book
and instead I decided todistract myself by taking all of
my notes of different books Iwanted to read and color coding

(04:20):
them and writing like romantasyin one color and fantasy in
another, and mystery, horror,all these kinds of things.
So that was fun.

Nice.

Zinzi Bree (04:30):
So what I'm hearing is we will be seeing pictures of
your handwritten TBR color codedon our social media to share
what that looks like,

Sage (04:39):
A hundred percent

Yes, please.
One of the things aboutmarketing that gets me is, and I
consider the front cover to be amarketing tactic because it

Zinzi Bree (04:47):
Yes,

to expect about the book.
And they say don't judge a bookby the cover, but

Zinzi Bree (04:52):
absolutely.
Judge the book by its cover.

the cover.
a lot of the time, so that's whyI don't do handwritten notes or
an Excel sheet or something likethat.
Because when I'm in a mood and Idon't know what I'm looking for
half the time it's going to beinfluenced by what I see
visually on the cover of thebook.
So I have to go into my visualTBR of the books that I've saved
somewhere and be like, oh, thatone looks interesting.

(05:15):
Okay.
What's that about?

Sage (05:17):
Seriously.

Zinzi Bree (05:19):
So I have here in my notes, that there's an estimated
6,000 new books published a.
A day, 6,000 globally.
you have to have marketing, youhave to have a beautiful cover
to get noticed.
If your competition is six, Imean, granted a bunch of
different languages, but 6,000 aday or I don't even have a

(05:39):
further breakdown of like howmany of those are in English or,
you know, a specific language todiversify that list further.

Sage (05:47):
6,000 a day is, that's insane.
I'm feeling overwhelmed by howmany books I need to read

Zinzi Bree (05:53):
Oh, so your TBR just looks like that giant line of
dominoes that just went into thedistance

Sage (05:58):
Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (05:58):
I saw a quote recently it was the only way I
will get to the end of my TBR isif I'm dead.

Sage (06:04):
I feel like I need that on a shirt.

Number one on my bucket list.
So I have a life bucket list,and then I have an internal
bucket list, like places I wannago and things I wanna do.
but then really what it boilsdown to is the spot number one
is finish my TBR before I die.

Sage (06:20):
You can't add

Zinzi Bree (06:21):
but you can't.
So it'd be one thing if you werelimiting yourself and you're
like, I must have read all ofthe books that I physically own
in my possession in my homebefore I die.
Like

can't do

Zinzi Bree (06:31):
Yeah, but I'm saying that's the only way you can be
successful at that.
Otherwise your TBR will alwaysgrow, there'll always be more
books as a lifelong reader untilyou're dead.
the average American reads 12books in a year.
But the more accurate statisticis median, which is half of the
population reads four books orless in a year.

(06:52):
The other half reads four ormore, which like you're a big
literacy advocate.
So to know that half of thepopulation reads four or less..

Sage (07:02):
Yeah, I was just actually talking to my mom about this
because she was working on, shehas a young a middle grade novel
and she wants to update it.
And we were talking about whatmakes kids wanna read these
days?
And I was like, you know whatKids love Dog Man.
And I don't know if you guys arefamiliar with Dog Man, it's a
graphic novel that's full oflike poop jokes.

(07:22):
And remember seeing a quote thatmothers both love and hate Dog
Man because, Their kids arereading and they love that.
And then what they're reading isit's silly and funny and, but
your kids are reading, right?
So Do you balance that?

oh, I was gonna say, how do we feel
about the rise of graphicnovels?

Zinzi Bree (07:44):
Oh, segue.
That not on our bingo card fordiscussions, but, I think the
rise of graphic novels playsinto the change in attention
spans.
it feels like there's been a lotof books that got popularity in
mainstream.
And they go from being a book tonow, there's a graphic novel
version of the same story.
Now there's a Netflix TV seriesof the same story.

(08:05):
They've moved more into thevisual areas of storytelling
because so much of the nextgenerations have been, and even
my generation have moved online,moved to quick forms of
entertainment, have moved to, sothis is something else I wanna
talk about, is the a la carte,like ordering, this is what I

(08:26):
want.
This is specifically what Iwant, and I want it now.
And you can get that moreimmediately.
And I think that's partly what'sbeing used in marketing as far
as why we see tropes to marketbooks on social media.
We're like, you're not tellingme what the story's about.
You're showing me a pretty coverand you're saying these three to
five tropes that are in thisbook.

(08:47):
And that's how it's being sold.

Sage (08:50):
I actually a bit of a pet peeve around this, so I feel
like tropes have been talkedabout a lot in the last number
of years, and obviously they'veexisted for a very long time,
but it's almost like books arebeing written to the trope
instead of the story.
That's maybe coming more fromthe heart, from the imagination,

(09:12):
but that the you know, my bookhas to be enemies to Lovers and
these other tropes and foundfamily and, some kinda super elf
thing.
And then it has to hit some kindof plot structure.
And it all just starts to feelso formulaic.
And part of that I do think ismarketing.

(09:33):
It's okay, now we can marketthis book as being the next
Sarah J Mass lookalike or thenext version of the Hunger Games
or whatever was just popular.
Now here's the new thing of it.
And so by following thosetropes, it's easier to your
story.
Marketing wise, but I get sobored of it's so predictable.

(09:54):
Okay.
I love a good enemy is to loversa story, but when it's clear
that's what it is or it's toldto me straight up front it, I
don't enjoy the story as much.
When marketing tells you exactlywhat to expect, I'm no longer
surprised by the story.
It's oh yeah, here we go.
I did just start reading SilverElite because of marketing hype

(10:14):
and also because a friend ofmine was asking me if I had read
it yet.
And then I read a review of itthat kind of panned it.
When people have a lot to sayabout a book that's not always
positive, it kind of makes mewanna read it just to see really
do I agree or whatever.
And it feels a little bitpredictable.
I feel like we're trending inthat direction more with
mainstream promotion stuff.

Zinzi Bree (10:37):
Okay.
So I wanna go into this.
I'll pull it off my shelf.
Prior to planning this podcast Ihad decided I was gonna try out
Book of the Month My opinion isI'm still deciding if I like it.
But in the first month that Ihad joined, this was their book.
Okay.
we are talking about SilverElite by Dani Francis, And they

(10:59):
teased it by going, this is ourdeluxe limited edition, sprayed
edge.
the cover is black and silver.
And I'm saying this because wewill have audio listeners that
don't actually get to see medisplaying the cover.
And knowing nothing about thebook other than there was magic
powers.
So I assumed fantasy.
I didn't even know dystopianuntil later.

(11:20):
This was one of my picks forthat month.
And I do have to say this is, areally eye catching, pretty
cover in my opinion.
I just got to chapter 15, so Iam like a third.
I'm this far, this much intothis book, so still very
beginning.
So I can't give my full opinionon it yet.

(11:42):
I'll stick it back here.
But I did wanna say like themarketing got me the big push
from.
Book of the Month, the SprayedEdges, I probably shouldn't have
been put that away before Iwent.
Oh, by the way Silver Elitewhich I know there was a big
controversy.
Not specifically on the contentof the book necessarily, but on

(12:04):
Dani Francis' being a pen namenot knowing, is the book AI
written, is it written by a guywho needed to assume of a
feminine pen name for thepurposes of marketing and
selling?
And there was also in the, as awriter, some controversy in that
this book blew up becausemarketing pushed it because the

(12:27):
publishers decided we're gonnaback this.
We're gonna get behind this,we're gonna spend money on it
and send it out to bookinfluencers and get it in front
of people.
Excellently marketed, but Idon't know if that creates
longevity.
Even though I purchased thebook, even though I think the
outside is pretty, I'm notnormally a dystopian reader.

(12:48):
All of the controversy aroundit, if Sage hadn't been like I'm
gonna read it so we can talkabout it on the podcast, I
probably would've just quietlytaken it off my shelf and give
it away.
Without bothering to read it.
Because I am the opposite ofSage, there's a bunch of
controversy.
Oh, people are panning this.

(13:09):
I'm not gonna go, oh, I'm gonnago read it and see if their
opinions are wrong.
I'm gonna go, they're probablyright.
I have other books I'm moreexcited about.
So there's sometimes marketingcan backfire if you make a
choice to do something that'scontroversial.
Sure.
It gets that book's title, intothe air, into people talking
about it.
But there's just as much achance of it getting to readers

(13:31):
like me, where it's gonna go,no, that's gonna turn me off.
I don't wanna touch that now.
By the way, Sage, have youfinished it yet?
How far into it are you?

Sage (13:39):
No, I haven't.
I probably would never have readit if hadn't.
Had my friend ask me about it,and she and I talk about Fourth
Wing and Sarah J Mass and thatlevel of books.
I'll give it a try.
And it showed up in my, it waslike on my holds list and it
popped up.

Zinzi Bree (13:57):
This is good timing.

Sage (13:58):
yeah, I am maybe 25% of the way through.
I don't know that I'm gonna keepreading it.
It feels like I was saying, it'svery predictable and I kind of
see what's coming.
I have other books that I wouldrather read.
My TBR is really long.
also am a book reviewer, so Ihave a list of books that I have
to read for work.

(14:19):
I read three to four books amonth for work and then I try
and fit in my own books from myTBR,

Zinzi Bree (14:27):
Pleasure reading.

Sage (14:27):
a lot.
Yeah, that's a lot.
Occasionally they overlap, but alot of the books I read as a
book reviewer are actually thebooks that are popular on social
media.
they are getting huge and a lotof teenagers are reading'em and
I'm asked to review somethingbecause of that.
So I end up reading.
stuff that I wouldn't normallyread.

(14:48):
I don't know that I will readingElite.
I do really dystopian, but Ilike dystopian when it feels
very message driven.
I don't, we talked about it inthe romance episode, I don't
care The romance unless it's areally well done subplot.
And honestly at this pointthey're all feeling very

(15:09):
similar.
All the romantasys.
It's like the characters feelvery similar and I just, I want
something a little differentthese days, So good chance that
I will not finish.

Zinzi Bree (15:21):
Oh, I am listening to it as an audiobook, and I am
enjoying the audiobook.
I'm listening it at least at oneand a half speed, I think.
So I'm getting through it prettyquick.
And I probably will finish it.
I'm not, I haven't gottenannoyed enough with the that
there is a lot of oh gosh, he'shot.
I hate myself for liking thathe's hot, but I can't control

(15:42):
the fact that I think he's hot.
And I don't like that.
I just, it's annoying.
I don't, if I could choose notinstead of having a well trigger
warnings should be, in myopinion, in the front of books,
it's nice to have triggerwarnings that are vague.
I do not want a fan fiction, AO3everything is tagged, everything
is trope, so you know exactlywhat you're getting.

(16:04):
Into in my trigger warnings.
But I would love, as a personwho doesn't always enjoy the
spice a like a contents list ofHey, here's the pages where the
spice is.
That has nothing to do with thestory.
If it's that kind of book.

Sage (16:20):
Yep.

Zinzi Bree (16:20):
'Cause some of them are, and so I can just know when
I get to that page number.
Here's the author's next page toskip to like, here's the spice
stop here.
Skip to this page.
If you wanna read the storywithout spice.
I want that as a, in the openingof my books Can we have a
website that is the skip thesmuts, skip the spice as a

(16:43):
website.

Sage (16:44):
yeah, maybe we should make that.

Zinzi Bree (16:45):
or,

Sage (16:46):
to skip those pages or just read those pages depending
on your

Zinzi Bree (16:49):
yeah.
This probably, maybe this wouldbe something that would get me
canceled, but I would considerhere I'm gonna write the clean
version of the book and that'swhat I'm gonna publish.

Oh,

Zinzi Bree (16:58):
But if you really want the spicy version, I will
have that as an ebook or adeluxe edition or something
behind a paywall.
It's unlikely that I'm gonnawrite that into my cozy rom-com
fantasy.
My brain definitely plays thosescenes out while I'm thinking
about my characters in the worldbuilding.
It's there, I could write it butit's not.

(17:18):
Those aren't relevant to theplot for me because they're not
romance's first stories.
They're plot first.
So it doesn't make it necessary.
Which is why I'd be like, Hey,if you really want that, if you
love these characters that much.
If well, sorry, not sorry.
I have bills to pay guys.

That reminds me of the Patreon things
for people who do the web comicslike And tapas and things like
that.
And they're like, okay, if youwant the NSFW then go to my
Patreon.
Then, you know, you also have toclick buttons like, Hey, I'm 18
or older and things like.
But it does kind of bring usback to tropes and like how
people identify the tropes onthings.

(17:57):
When you guys were deciding toread Silver Elite, was it just
because it was in the book ofthe month or because of all the
hype online?
Was it like one of those tropepictures that we see?

Zinzi Bree (18:08):
I have not seen a picture for Silver Elite.
I picked it up because it washyped up on book of the month
and it was done.
I will commend book of themonths for its marketing.
They do a good job of teasingwhat the book is about.
The author in an interview, andthis is what spurred some of the
controversy, was that, oh, Iwanted a book that was in a

(18:29):
dystopian setting or like theHunger Games, but with adults
and sex." And that is that Ilearned about after I had
already purchased the book.
if I had known that I wouldn'thave gotten it.
'Cause it's just those are notthe things that attract me to a
story.

Sage (18:51):
And I

Katherine Suzette | Boo (18:51):
enough.

Sage (18:53):
I'm reading it hunger Games is so dear to my heart.
I think that Hunger Gamesreading, that was the book that
got me wanting to write again.
I had a lot of writing when Iwas younger and never followed
through to finishing amanuscript.
But reading that really reincited that desire and I
started doing more writing againafter that.

(19:14):
And, there's a lot that I reallylove in Hunger Games, how there
is a look at media's influenceviolence and society and power
and all of that.
I have a media literacybackground.
I worked in the film industryfor a long time, and so that
resonated with me quite a lot.
So when I heard that this bookwas being likened to the Hunger

(19:34):
Games, but with adults with sex,that was not making me want to
read it except that I,association with the Hunger
Games, I was like, okay, whatdoes that look like?
Could you do that well andactually have that still, that
depth of meaning.
Or are we just taking a storythat is super popular, people

(19:55):
love it.
Using that as our reason.
our comp.
So are we using this Title?
just to get people to buy it.
So I was kind of curious ifthere was the dystopian meaning
in the book, in which case,adding some adult sex scenes
hits another audience level thatmaybe isn't gonna be interested

(20:16):
in reading the Hunger Games.

Katherine Suzette | (20:18):
Interesting because I think one of the
reasons why I like Retellings isbecause I wanna know what unique
spin the author brings to it.

Zinzi Bree (20:27):
Yes,

so strongly referred to it's the
Hunger Games, but with thesethings that's a really strong
comparison, I would wonder howthey did it.
And so that out of anything youguys have said so far, piques my
curiosity just simply to see ifit is unique, what their unique
take on this world andeverything is.
And now of course, you guysaren't very far into it, and

(20:48):
both of you're kinda like, eh,so maybe I won't.
We'll see.

Zinzi Bree (20:52):
in the one third of the book that I have gotten
through I keep having thethought this is a dystopian
Fourth Wing.

Huh.

Zinzi Bree (21:00):
It is not close to the Hunger Games.
It is much closer, storystructure so far.
The thrown into the militaryfairly early into the story.
This is, the very first timethat I have read a main
character that is a sharpshooterthat has a gun They're not
calling them magic powers.
They're mutant powers.
So maybe the better compwould've been like a dystopian

(21:23):
fourth wing with X-Mencharacters.

okay.

Sage (21:28):
no dragons.

Zinzi Bree (21:30):
No dragons.
So if you see a book everywhere,if you feel like it's constantly
talked about, whethercontroversial or not, does that
turn you off?
Do you go, I don't really wannaread that'cause everybody's
reading that, I'll go findsomething else.

Yeah it depends for me, okay,

Zinzi Bree (21:46):
Do you suffer from fomo?

I do, I suffer from fomo,
especially when I would love tobe able to talk about the books.
Like I haven't read SilverElite.
And so I would love to be ableto talk about it, but also I
kinda getting your 2 centsbefore I commit my time to it.
That said books like that.
It's been out for only a coupleof months and it's got 60,000
reviews and things like that.
And that tells me that a bigpublisher has put most of their

(22:11):
marketing into this one book sothat they can make big bank and
move on to the next thing.
But that also means thatwhatever other books they have
agreed to promote and market arenot getting the same budget that
book is, that

Zinzi Bree (22:23):
Yeah.

And I don't think that's necessarily
bad in the sense that as abusiness person, you put your
money where you're gonna makethe money.
But as an author, if I were oneof the other ones that was
recently signed and I was reallyhoping for a bigger cut of the
marketing budget for May, June,and July, then to see my

(22:47):
publishing company onlypromoting this one book.
Does that make it bad?
Not necessarily, but I do havecomplicated feelings about it.
I'm not seeing other books fromthis publisher, I know that
there are some getting sweptunder the rug and authors that
are missing out on the potentialthat marketing could have
brought them.
And so authors out there, takenote, if you are doing

(23:09):
self-publishing or hybridpublishing and things like that,
there are ways to climb thelists and get out there.
You just have to push it.
And sometimes that does meansome financial commitment just
like probably what's going onbehind the scenes with Silver
Elite.

Sage (23:22):
I get a little frustrated by the marketing because I feel
like the book industry, I meanit makes sense because of money,
but it's similar to Hollywood inmy mind, where it's the same
movies are getting.
made and promoted and all themoney is being spent on making
whatever is a safe bet.

(23:42):
So you promote with books, youpromote the trope, you promote
the comp titles.
This is the new Fourth Wing,this is the new whatever.
And like you said, Katherine,like those other titles that
maybe are better books orsomebody would enjoy reading
'cause it's different thaneverything else that's out there

(24:03):
are getting swept under the rug.
I don't want every book to bekind of the same.
Yes, if I am looking for a quickread, something easy where it's
just like a no-brainer to diveinto is one thing.
But generally I wanna be likechallenged by my books.
I want to read something unique.
I wanna feel the passion thatthe author had.

(24:24):
I don't wanna wonder if it waswritten by ai.
If I actually think it'ssomething will enjoy then yes.
But I won't read it just becauseit's popular.

Zinzi Bree (24:34):
I wanna go to something that happened at the
beginning of this year wherethere were publishers that had
decided to move away from bookblurbs where they weren't like
on their covers, they weren'tgoing forward going to try and
sell a book because anotherauthor recommended it.
I think that has to do withsocial media now taking the

(24:55):
place of needing an author'sopinion to sell a book.
if I pick up a book and I havethis beautiful cover and I have
these sprayed edges and I have aquote from a book, now granted,
this is a book that I alreadyloved and that's why I hunted it
down.
I don't wanna see anotherauthor's opinion like that would
ruin a cover is beautiful asthis.

(25:17):
Even, I'm trying to see if I goover to Fourth Wing here, which
I don't have, I don't have aspecial fancy edition.
I think this is just fromCostco.
It's got a quote.
It's got part of the book on theback, which I prefer those, if
I'm gonna look at a shelf ofbooks and go, that's a pretty

(25:39):
cover.
It's got dragons on it.
Okay, I'm gonna check what's thewriting style, what's going on
in the back of the book.
And it has a quote from the bookthat's intriguing or it actually
has.
Part of the book back there.
That's a significant moment.
I'm gonna prefer that over.
'Cause I've seen books that Ipick it up and the back of it is

(26:00):
six other authors, greatauthors.
Authors I've read saying thisbook was great.
I love this.
And the skeptic in me, I wouldlike as a writer to believe that
these authors, yes, thank you.
Oh, the Knight Circus had it.
Oh, Love the Knight Circus, butI hate that.

Katherine Suzette | B (26:19):
Different versions have different
advertising tactics.
They probably try a bunch ofdifferent things, but yeah,
here's a version of that.
Whereas here's a version of aPeter in the star catchers book
where

Zinzi Bree (26:31):
just beautiful.

it's just beautiful.

Zinzi Bree (26:33):
End of story.

Sage (26:33):
I agree that I

Zinzi Bree (26:34):
I've.

Sage (26:34):
this has to do with like social media marketing and the
change in marketing for books,because it used to be that the
way you promoted a book, they'dbe at the bookstore and there
would be advertisements andmagazines which we don't really
have that anymore.
Or you might have something likeOprah's Book Club or Reese
Witherspoon's book Club andthose promote books, but.

(26:56):
Back in the day, you might see athriller by an author.
You didn't know who it was, andit has a quote by Stephen King,
and that gives a littlevalidity.
I generally would not choose abook based on the author blurb.
I'd much rather read like asynopsis or like you said, I'll
open the book up and read alittle section of it to see if I
like the writing style.

Zinzi Bree (27:17):
When I go to the library, I will go in, look at a
book go, okay, covers got metitles, got me art style,
whatever that, you know, signalscertain things about the kind of
book that it's gonna be.
And then I will open it andlibrary books, have a story
summary that has like skeletonblurb, a bare bones, this is
what the story is about, one ortwo sentences.

(27:38):
And I will choose to read thebook based on that just little
library required sentence And athought that I didn't finish is,
did the authors actually readthe book when they gave that
end?
Did they get paid to read that?
Now I don't think that they did.
I think it was genuinely, it's asmall enough world, especially

(28:00):
if you're in a similar genrebeing traditionally published
where a lot of them are friends.
So that's, they're reading theirfriends' books and they're
giving a recommendation on theirfriends' book.
Like that's more likely to bethe thing then pay happening or
the editor is going, you know,Hey, I'm friends with this
author, or I'm an agent and Iagent these five authors, can I

(28:21):
get them to read each other'sand recommend some of that is
probably going on.
but before I was like, did theyactually read it or were they
paid to read it and give a goodopinion?
And I think that now has sincemoved to book influencers.
I would hope that more oftenthan not, they've actually read

(28:43):
the book that they're.
Hyping up.
But I can imagine ones that arebig, that are influential
enough, maybe not all the time,There is a level of skepticism
in me, and maybe it's just, Idon't know enough.
How much of that is paid?
How much of that should be paid?
Because I do believe that it isservice and it should be paid

(29:03):
like Sage, you're, you doreviews that are for Common
Sense Media, and I absolutelybelieve you should be paid for
your time to read the book andreview it.
But You're not giving an opinionon this is a good book.
I enjoyed it.
You're giving a, this is whatthe content is,

Sage (29:17):
I do both.
I do report back on content,which is from a objective
standpoint.
It's just very much like thislevel of violence, this specific
type of violence, this specifictype of language, these positive
messages, this amount ofdiversity in character.
and a synopsis of what the bookis about without spoilers.

(29:40):
I also give a short descriptionof the book and I rate it.
I'm required to rate it on a.
five star rating, which is thehardest part for me, since I
can't give like half points

Zinzi Bree (29:54):
Yeah.

Sage (29:54):
it is hard for me to rate things like I'm generally a
positive person and I don't liketo say bad things, but I'll say
if I didn't enjoy the book, Iwill try and do constructive
criticism around it.
So I'm not just slamming bookswhen I write a opinion part of
my review, I'm very much tryingto analytically explain why I

(30:16):
did or didn't like it.
Did the characters fall a littletoo flat and that's why I didn't
enjoy it, or Did I just notenjoy it?
'cause that's not my type ofbook'cause I'm assigned the
books.
Or did I not enjoy it

Zinzi Bree (30:26):
Yeah.

Sage (30:26):
technically there was problems.
And that's more what I base mywork On.
I do get free books

Zinzi Bree (30:32):
for that.

Sage (30:33):
And I read stuff that I wouldn't ordinarily read.
So like I read a bunch of EmilyHenry books because they've been
popular on TikTok and I don'tread a ton of romance and I
don't read a lot of contemporaryromance, but she wrote some
really beautiful, fun books andI was happy that I got a chance
to read those, you know?
I read like middle grade booksand stuff too.
So it's a gamut sure.

(30:53):
I was under the impression thatthe book blurbs or the reviews
by authors were paid and that,that was like a side income for
well-known authors.
I could be wrong about that.

Zinzi Bree (31:08):
Listeners, if you know, if you're,

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (31:11):
let us know, is this something that, Do you know?
Do you have to sign NDAs?
Like I also feel like dependingon how early you see a
manuscript, what version arethey reading?
Even is it a beta, is it in itsarc form?
Um,

Sage (31:25):
a reading and I haven't been paid for that.

There are paid arcs too though, but
paid arcs tend to assume thatthe.
Or at least the author is hopingthat it'll be a positive arc.

Sage (31:37):
I did feel a little bit of pressure on the arcs reading
that I did.
One was for a friend and it wasa lovely book, but I did feel
like a little bit of oh,Hopefully I don't hate the book.

yeah.

Zinzi Bree (31:48):
Now I am.

won't post about a book that they
don't like, and like theycontractually say Not to post
about it, that doesn't mean Ididn't read it.
It just means that I couldn'trespectfully give my opinion And
feel good about giving it.

Zinzi Bree (32:01):
That's a better response than being, I was sent
this as an arc and I hated it.
Don't bother.
How awful is that?
I don't want to,

Sage (32:07):
Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (32:08):
I don't like any Of the posts or videos that are I
read 60 books so far this yearand here are my DNFs.

Sage (32:16):
Oh

Yeah.

Sage (32:17):
Like it's just negativity.
If our

Zinzi Bree (32:20):
which feeds the algorithm.

Sage (32:22):
Yeah.
I would be interested to know ifour listeners are likely to read
Silver Elite based on our owntalking about it, which is
enough form.
Like I realized we were kind ofmarketing the book in About it
so much.
Listeners, if you do end uppicking up the book and reading
it, let us know what you think.

Zinzi Bree (32:37):
The books that we recommend specifically at the
end, like those are ones thatare my whole heart is behind
this.
I fully recommend this.
Please read it, please, becauseI wanna meet you in person and
fan together over this book.
That is part of the love ofbooks and being in the book
community, being in fandom isshared passion.
That's one of the best thingsabout it.
So I want to read more books.

(32:59):
Other people are reading andgushing about them.

You know, I have another point about
marketing tactics.
So did say that marketing willmake me buy it, sometimes, it
just depends on my mood and whatI'm looking for.
And I thought about it and Ithink my third point there is my
level of decision fatigue.
So if I really wanna go andbrowse and choose something for

(33:24):
myself that I'm really going tolove that is like.
It doesn't spoil anything forme.
It doesn't give me all thetropes up front.
I will do that.
However, if I just wantsomething to read right now that
hits a certain button and I seea trope graphic, like it's got
this and that and whatever init, in the graphic, then I'll be
like, yeah, okay, sounds good.
That hits it for now.

(33:45):
And then I save on some decisionfatigue.
And also that element when itcomes to author blurbs and book
awards and things like thatlends credibility to the book
too.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Quality enough that they'rewilling to put their name on it,
that they're willing, even ifthey're paid or whatever,
they're willing to have theirname stamped on this.

(34:07):
that book was worth it.
Then I do see that ascredibility, so I won't be
turned off by that necessarily.
But I do prefer for the book.
Information to be about the bookitself.
Like I would rather From theauthor on the back of the book
than to read Oh, publishersWeekly and USA today.
I think for me though, when I dochoose the hyper marketed books

(34:30):
that use all of the tropegraphics and whatnot, is
decision fatigue.
Sometimes I just don't wannahave to decide.
I just wanna say, oh, that'llsatisfy.

Zinzi Bree (34:38):
That's a really good point.

Sage (34:39):
of my book choices are based on word of mouth, and I'm
now realizing that I was sittingat a, a play and the women next
to me were talking about FourthWing, and I was like, wait, what
are you talking about?
And they might have found outabout it because of marketing
hype or social media.
So it's like secondhandmarketing made me read it.

Zinzi Bree (34:58):
Yeah.
I mean that if you get a bookjust out there in front of
enough people that it's beingtalked about positive or
negatively, that just thatawareness is in a book economy
that has 6,000 new books a dayto compete with.
Isn't that why they say anymarketing is good marketing?

Sage (35:18):
yeah.

Zinzi Bree (35:19):
So I read The Irresistible Urge to Fall for
Your Enemy, which was marketedcontroversially, marketed as a
Dramamine, not Dramamine.
That's a medicine.
Dramione.

Oh, okay.

Zinzi Bree (35:34):
sorry.

like a Drago

Zinzi Bree (35:36):
Drama.
yes.
Draco and Hermione book.

Okay.

Zinzi Bree (35:41):
and now that I've read it and seen some other
opinions out there about it, andI read it on Launch Day because
I had read the fan fictionBrigitte Knightley had
previously written and is stillavailable on AO3, which is Draco
Malfoy and the Mortifying Ordealof Being in Love, and I loved
that.
But it absolutely for characterdevelopment relies on the

(36:02):
previously establishedrelationship between Draco and
Hermione in the Harry Potterbooks.
there isn't a good way to takethat one and take out the Harry
Potter elements and separate itwell enough for it to stand on
it own and be Reskinned versustwo other books that are also

(36:23):
being published this year thatare also Draco and Hermione
previous fan fictions.
One is Rose in Chains, which waspreviously titled The Auction on
AO3.
And the other one is Alchemized,which was previously Manacled.
And I read Manacled specificallybecause I wanted to know one,

(36:43):
one FOMO.
FOMO got me.
I was hearing about it all thetime.
But also I plan to readAlchemized because I want to see
how the author makes me careabout Hermione and Draco now
that they would no longer beHermione and Draco.
There's so much work that anauthor has to put into making
you care about your characters.

Sage (37:04):
Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (37:04):
and if you take away all of the effort from the other
books, that a fan fiction allowsthat depth of character.
And Alchemized it's gonna be,it's big hefty book.
Manacled is over a thousandpages long.
But going back to TheIrresistable Urge to Fall for
Your Enemy I read that and It isenjoyable.
It is a fun read.

(37:25):
The banter is great.
There are lots of things that Ilove about Brigitte Nightley's
writing style but the charactersare shallow.
Not in that they're shallowpeople, but there isn't a depth
to them.
there was so much effort on thebanter and the fun.
And I did enjoy the effort sheput into her world building.
There's a glossary of terms atthe beginning.

(37:46):
There's a map, there's a,"Hey,these are the different orders
that exist" in this book toexplain the magic.
It's a fully magical setting.
it doesn't have the muggle andWizard World Separation.
But Aurienne and Osric, thoseare the main couple.
Like they're enjoyable.
But they're only likable to mefrom the context that they are

(38:10):
Draco and Hermione.
They're not Draco and Hermionecopycats'cause there are some
differences, but that they'remodeled after Draco and
Hermione.
Like that's the only way thatmakes them more likable because
you're going, oh, I'm waitingfor this character trait to show
up from that perception.
And in the marketing they putout that they're Draco and

(38:32):
Hermione and part of that is tosnack.
'cause that's like a massivefandom, subset, fandom of those
characters that just, that'sloved.
But I think also that took someof the labor off of the author
to have put in more effort toground those characters.
Now I will also say that is thefirst book in a duology, and I

(38:54):
will read the second one.

You know, that's a very interesting
point and it makes me thinkabout a series I recently read
based on word of mouthrecommendations was the Carry On
by Rainbow Rowell.
I adored it.
I thought it was so well done,and I loved the depth of the
relationship and character thatthe author was able to bring
into characters who outside ofthis book seemed very different.

(39:21):
That said the location that theauthor picks up at for these two
characters is right after, allof the time at or during the
final year.
It does come through, if you'veread Harry Potter before, you
will see the exact referenceshere.

(39:41):
So I am wondering if I hadn'tread Harry Potter once upon a
time, but if I hadn't read it,if I wasn't familiar with the
books or the movies, would Istill feel like those characters
have depth prior to where thebook starts?
I do think that the authorbuilds character into the

(40:02):
characters as we go really well.
But we're still coming at itknowing that they had all this
time at school

Sage (40:07):
That's a good point.
I also read the Carry On Seriesand very much enjoyed it, but I
had read Harry Potter before andso I can't speak to that part of
it, I will say that there'soften books where you're kind of
set into the middle of arelationship where there is a
lot of past history between thecharacters.
It's not like they're meetingfor the first time on the page,
so

Zinzi Bree (40:28):
But that past history is explored, right?

Sage (40:31):
but then I

Zinzi Bree (40:31):
Like in the context of the story.
Eventually it's explored versus

Sage (40:34):
Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (40:35):
That wasn't explored well, or the enemies to lover's
portion in the irresistible urgehad oh, he's an assassin.
I'm a healer, so I should hatehim."

Sage (40:44):
Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (40:45):
that's not a well-developed enemies to begin
with.
Versus a story where he's anassassin and he assassinated my
uncle, he assassinated a personthat I loved.
Maybe a person that I loved thatwas doing bad things I didn't
know about, but you wereactively my enemy until this
reveal happens later.

(41:06):
that's a better enemies tolovers.
That's my preferred enemies tolovers kind of scenario.

Yeah, I just read an Enemies to
Lovers.
That was actually really good.

Zinzi Bree (41:15):
Title.

okay, so I just read Heartless Hunter,
followed by Rebel Witch

Zinzi Bree (41:21):
Oh,

so

Zinzi Bree (41:21):
okay.

and it was really good.
There

Zinzi Bree (41:24):
is an element

the development of the relationship.
I wish that there had been moreto, but I also understand that
this was trad published, Ibelieve, they had a word count
for the genre convention toadhere to.
But essentially I wanted thereto be more discussion and
forgiveness and apologies.
Based on what made them enemiesin the first place.

(41:47):
But the author did explain itwell enough to help me connect
with each character.
Both of the characters totallyunderstood, throughout the
development of the relationshipwhere the other was coming from.
And they could have compassionfor why they ended up on
opposite sides this conflict inthe story.
So I do recommend it.
Highly recommend it.

(42:08):
Most humans don't really mind, Ithink, when there's not a huge
apology scene.
But me, as a human myself, I'dbe like, nah, you gotta make
things right with me before wecan move forward.
I just wanted a little bit more,but it was excellent.
Enemies to Lovers.
Done well, Heartless Hunter andRebel Witch.

Zinzi Bree (42:28):
That's some last name that I cannot pronounce.
But I can picture the covers inmy head'cause the covers are
really pretty.
I'm looking through my list ofdiscussion stuff and there were
other things.
I almost wanna do a second partto this because there were
absolutely more things that Iwanted to talk about.

Sage (42:43):
So my recommendation for

Zinzi Bree (42:45):
Oh, yes.

Sage (42:45):
Graceling by Kristin Cashore it is a lovely story
that I.
Listen to the audio book fromnot knowing really anything
about it, but it is fantasy witha romance subplot and really
great characters.
Really cool world building.
The first in, there's a bunch ofbooks set in the same world, but
not with the necessarily alwaysthe same characters.

(43:06):
So you don't have to read awhole trilogy.
If you just wanna read this oneas a standalone, totally can.
Highly recommend

Zinzi Bree (43:14):
I've read that series.
It is really good.

My recommendation

Zinzi Bree (43:16):
go ahead.

I got because of marketing only,
and it was Apprentice to theVillain and I was not
disappointed.

Zinzi Bree (43:22):
I apprentice to the villain is so fun.

Yes.

Zinzi Bree (43:26):
these recommended reads, yours is marketing
Katherine Marketing.
Got you.
For yours.
But for Sage and mine, we aredoing the throwback books trend.
So Sage and I are throwbacks.
And this is not like a fancycover, this is secondhand from
the free little library.
But it is The Blue Sword byRobin McKinley.
I also really highly recommendthe audiobook.

(43:48):
This is a YA fantasy romancesubplot.
And it is, oh gosh my memoriesof it are very vivid as far as
setting the magic is very.
It's present, but subtle.
It's not this big superpowersthing, but more mythical
feeling.

(44:08):
And there is a book that goesbefore it that is the Hero and
the Crown.
But you can absolutely read themseparately.
There's just, if you read thatone first, then you'll see a
couple of little scatteredreferences in the Blue Sword.
the main character, the HarryCrew might be, there might be a
little bit of a chosen one goingon with this because she becomes

(44:31):
the Harimad-sol King's Rider.
it's delightful.
But Robin McKinley, she's one ofmy favorite authors, her writing
is so beautiful.
All right.
Where can you find us on socialmedia?

you can find us on social media
platforms.
You can see them linked below.

Sage (44:47):
Our next book club is coming up, and if you wanna grab
the book and read along, thebook is For She is Wrath by
Emily Varga and I hope that youenjoy it.

Zinzi Bree (44:57):
Yeah.
I'm really excited because it'sthe.
magical retelling of the countof Monte Cristo.

Sage (45:02):
Yeah, I saw that

Zinzi Bree (45:03):
I'm excited for it.

Sage (45:04):
but I have not started reading it yet.

Zinzi Bree (45:06):
We are still, a Baby podcast.
We would love if you would rateand review.
Those stars really help.
Our next episode to be titled itdoesn't have a title yet but we
will be discussing readingchallenges seasonal reads, being
a mood reader.
Book bingo.
Something I came across recentlythat I'm excited to research and
dig into, which is the hardestreading challenge you will ever

(45:27):
do.
And it looks insane.
But I'm very excited.
We will, be discussing that nexttime.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Bye.

Bye.

Zinzi Bree (45:48):
And here are your bloopers which might just be cat
sounds, just Katherine's catsounds.

Sage (45:54):
And the dog barking.

Zinzi Bree (45:56):
Yeah.

Say hi.

Zinzi Bree (45:58):
I'm trying to remember how to bring that up.
She's being so talkative.

Sage (46:04):
Aw.

Here you go, baby.
No, she's talking at me.
She just, when I respond and askher what she wants, she just
looks at me like, how come you.
don't understand?

Zinzi Bree (46:13):
Us dumb humans.
Why can't we speak animal?

I don't know.
You'd think by now we'd have itfigured out.
My

Zinzi Bree (46:21):
Yeah,

Katherine Suzette | Bo (46:22):
herself.
She's curled up with a plushiehere.

Zinzi Bree (46:24):
Awesome.
Man, I'm weirdly nervous again.
I wasn't, last time I was justlike, Ooh, this is fun.
I wasn't nervous.

Sage (46:31):
It is

Zinzi Bree (46:32):
Do.

Sage (46:32):
nervous and then you are like, I'm gonna hit record.
And I'm like, now I'm nervous.

Zinzi Bree (46:37):
Yeah.
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to Book DrainBanter.
Uh, this is a podcast where wethe three of us, Katherine Sage.
Wow.
Great.
This is why I warm up my voicebeforehand so I can spiel and
not just stumble over things.
Do another take.
Yep.

Take two If, okay.
We're

Zinzi Bree (46:58):
You got it?

today, aren't we?
Yeah.
You know what?
It's okay.

Sage (47:01):
Now I'm covering

Zinzi Bree (47:02):
that's

Sage (47:03):
So I don't stare at myself.

Zinzi Bree (47:05):
I am,

Sage (47:06):
sure I'm centered and everything is so that I can just
not look at myself again.

Zinzi Bree (47:10):
Yeah I hopefully have gotten my camera to a good
spot for eye contact.
Will be less talking off hereand when we're talking into
here.

I am

Zinzi Bree (47:17):
all i,

much.

Zinzi Bree (47:19):
but it's a fun,

Sage (47:21):
and it's fun,

Zinzi Bree (47:21):
We're all very different people.

Sage (47:24):
I'm gonna move more.

Zinzi Bree (47:26):
Okay.
Sadly I did not, do my usualsinging warmup stuff.
So I can even tell my voice isyou're not fully awakened.

What's your warmup?
We'll do it together.

Zinzi Bree (47:34):
Lubricated.
What?
No.
I told you guys before it wasjust, I would turn on Taylor
Swift or I would turn onwhatever.
Although right now it's I havestuck in my head.
K-Pop demon hunters

Sage (47:46):
I don't

Zinzi Bree (47:46):
music.

that's on my list.

Sage (47:49):
don't know the music.

Zinzi Bree (47:51):
From Netflix.

Sage (47:51):
Is it good?

Zinzi Bree (47:52):
yeah, I'd recommend it.
It's fun.
all the music is very earworm.
So be prepared it might be thenew obsession.
It feels a little bit like whenfrozen and everybody was into
singing let it Go,

Sage (48:05):
I won't tell my cute side story.

Zinzi Bree (48:07):
Oh, please tell your Yes.
please.

Sage (48:09):
the other night we were hanging out and we decided to
play, we were playing music, allthe four of us.
We decided to play our guilty

Zinzi Bree (48:16):
ooh,

Sage (48:16):
song and played those.
So my son who's like 12, hisguilty pleasure song was the one
that Christophe sings in Frozen2.
The like love

Zinzi Bree (48:25):
Lost in the woods.

Sage (48:26):
I love that so much.

Zinzi Bree (48:29):
we need a name for our, it's not our Dragon babies.

Sage (48:33):
Hatchlings.

Zinzi Bree (48:33):
hatchlings.
Hey.
So if you have a suggestion forwhat the Book Dragon Banter or
fans should be called put themin the comments.
let us know what you would like,or we'll just maybe have a
bloopers where we're spitballing what we'll call you
guys.
All of our gems, treasures

tribe.
cohorts, hoard.

Sage (48:53):
What's a

Zinzi Bree (48:54):
Our,

Sage (48:56):
Hoard.
yeah,

Zinzi Bree (48:57):
maybe it's a flight of dragons.
Come be our flight.

Sage (49:00):
Okay.

Zinzi Bree (49:02):
Oh our, oh, a thunder of dragons, man, that's
awesome.
Come be our thunder.

I

Zinzi Bree (49:08):
You are our thunder.
Oh, google can't be wrong.
Listeners, tell us in thecomments.
Do you wanna be

a flight, a hoard, A thunder

Zinzi Bree (49:16):
thunder

or hatchlings,

Zinzi Bree (49:17):
it's like a murder of crows.
I think Thunderer is cool.

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