Ep.1 Light, Dark, but mostly Morally Grey

Episode Transcript
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Zinzi Bree (00:05):
Welcome to book Dragon Banter, a podcast where
three aspiring writers talk allthings books.
We're fantasy focused, but we'renot exclusive.
We chat about tropes we love,what characters we love to hate,
and everything in between.
Uh, I'm Zinzi Bree.
Hi.

Katherine Suzette (00:20):
I am Katherine Suzette.

Sage Moreaux (00:21):
Hi, I'm Sage Moreaux.

Zinzi Bree (00:23):
And welcome to Book Dragon Banter.
This is the episode we aretalking about light, dark, and
morally gray in fantasy.
Light, dark and morally graycharacters.
Light, dark and morally graysettings.
Light, dark, and morally gray asa genre, like how that's
defined.

So we are technically an explicit podcast,
we might be talking about somedarker topics, especially in
today's episode.

And we will be talking about books in detail,
so there will be spoilers, andyou can find a list of the
novels that we talk about in ourshow notes so that you can make
sure that there's nothing onyour to be read list that is
about to be spoiled for you.

Zinzi Bree (01:01):
And you can always skip ahead, if you hear it
brought up, skip.

They could skip it or they could just kind of sing
in their la, la, la, la, la asit's being talked about.

Zinzi Bree (01:10):
Oh, disclaimer.
we do use pop culture, whenwe're talking about books.
Movies, TV shows, music, someother stuff that.
Helps illustrate our points whenwe're talking about books
because not everybody has readthe same books that we have.
This is my hair brained idea.
This podcast, we were working onother business stuff together
and I went, Hey, let's do apodcast.
Not knowing, at all, the amountof work I had just committed the

(01:33):
three of us, but especiallymyself, too.

Yep.

absolutely

Zinzi Bree (01:36):
I'm learning to do this all from scratch.
So if there's bad audio, ifthere's bad video.
Blame me.
It's all on me.
I'm, I'm doing the behind thescenes here and send tips, send
help.
I will take it.
So let us get into defining,genre's light, dark, and
morally?

(01:57):
Is there morally gray as agenre?
Yeah.
I specifically looked them up, Iwent onto Goodreads and was
trying what is the definition?
And now I don't unfortunatelyhave that written down in front
of me, but there it is in myhead and a little bit of the
genre breakdowns that are alsoincluded for some of them,

I looked it up on Reddit and got some funny
answers, but not necessarilyanything official.

too.

Zinzi Bree (02:20):
how can a genre be official outside of romance
where you've got a literary armorganization defining what it
is.
We don't have that, that I'maware of for

That's true.

Zinzi Bree (02:32):
fantasy, cozy fantasy, even fantasy broadly
because there's so much variety.
Like there isn't, as narrowromance.
Like you have to have your HEAor your, your happily ever after
for now.
Like that structure for it toqualify as romance.
You can put those guardrails on.
But for fantasy, sky's thelimit.

(02:54):
So let us get into defining, isthere morally gray as a genre?

No, I think that morally gray might have to
do more with the charactersthemselves, the decisions, and
maybe even what the plot isforcing these characters
through.
So maybe morally gray applies toany version of book, I love how
it sounds, light, dark, andmorally gray.
I vote yes

Zinzi Bree (03:18):
Mm-hmm.

to all of the above.

I would agree.
I think that there are bookswhere, like The Cruel Prince,
for example, which I think acouple of us have read, by Holly
Black, in The Folk of the Airseries, where many of the
characters are fairies who areprone to trickery and often
don't see morally gray as.
That's just like their way oflife.
They don't see it as a problemwhatsoever, so the book itself

(03:44):
is not a morally gray book, butthe setting that the world is in
is almost like morally gray isjust the average, the normal.

Zinzi Bree (03:52):
I agree with that.

maybe even with the advent of all of this
romantasy around, I definitelysee morally gray characters
being the attractive charactersthese days.
That's what people want for somelevel of believability and also
maybe in some cases likeredeemable darkness or the
attraction to darkness itself,which I think also applies to

(04:16):
dark fantasy.
But the, when it comes tocharacters specifically, that
the morally gray is prettyattractive these days,
especially when it comes toromantic interests.

Yeah, I don't know this is from a female
perspective, but like he'sbroken and I can fix him as a
classic kind of mindset that yousee a lot in romance.
It annoys me too, but I do seethat as kind of an element and I
wonder if that lent into the,but I really like what you said
about it being because it's morerealistic.

(04:48):
If the person is so perfect oralways makes the right decision,
that doesn't feel like a reallife person that you might
encounter.
So to have the love interest besomebody who is a little rougher
on the edges is a little bitsomebody you might have to be.
I've noticed that a lot ofmorally gray love interests seem

(05:09):
like they're bad at first, bador doing, making decisions that
you don't necessarily think arefor the greater good.
And then it turns out that theyhave this ulterior motive and
they're hiding something.
And actually they're working,I'm thinking of like Rhysand a
Court of Thorn and Roses there'sa couple other of those like
shadow characters where it seemslike they're working

(05:30):
nefariously, but really theyhave this really altruistic
thing that they are having tomake these difficult decisions
because of it.

Zinzi Bree (05:38):
Mm-hmm.

And then you find out, oh, actually they're this
amazing hero and not as morallygray as we thought.
Not so much in The Cruel Prince.

Zinzi Bree (05:49):
Yeah.
Uh, definitely not.
I do have to confess, I got tochapter five of the Cruel
Prince, and I almost DNF'd thebook.
And it was solely on yourrecommendation, Sage.
I was like, Sage loves this.
She thinks it's amazing.
I'm gonna push through and I'mgonna keep going.

(06:11):
I'm gonna give it a fair shot.
And I will explain why at thechapter five, there was the
scene that, they had class wherethere was a picnic where Jude
gets bullied.
And then there's a follow-upscene where Jude and her sister
are bullied and get thrown intothe river.
And Cardin, who I already knewat that point, was supposed to

(06:32):
be the love interest, he's partof the bullying.
Bully Romance is a no.
Like, that's, nope, heck no.
Not interested.
There's a mirror scene of thisbasically in, they're twins too,
it's a huge series.
It's an astrological,

the Zodiac

Zinzi Bree (06:53):
yes.
Zodiac Academy.

I haven't read that.

Zinzi Bree (06:55):
like a scene just like it in Zodiac Academy.
And as soon as I read the mirrorof it in Cruel Prince, I was
like, oh, no.
No, no, no, no.
I do not want this.
I put the book down, had tolike, go walk away for an hour,
do something else.
I was like, okay, it's not abully romance.
I think I'm gonna, I'm gonnakeep going.

(07:18):
We'll see.
And Jude won me over with hergumption, old fashioned word
there.

A good one though.

Zinzi Bree (07:24):
And by the end of the book I could see this is the
perception Jude has of Cardin'sbehavior and what he's actually
doing, ways to protect her.
I could see that at the end ofit.
So I, I came around on the CruelPrince and wanna continue the
series, but

Okay.

Zinzi Bree (07:39):
for that little bit, ugh,

I,

Zinzi Bree (07:42):
morally great characters.

so I haven't read the Zodiac Academy, but I loved
that scene because at the time,I recognized they tricked her,
if I'm thinking of the rightscene, they tricked her into
being like dispelled by theirmagic.
And Cardin was kind of part ofit.
And I saw very much that he waskind of like swayed by like the

(08:06):
popular kids and he was liketrying to be part of the, I mean
he was the prince, so like poorhim.
But

Zinzi Bree (08:11):
He is the popular

yeah, he is the popular kid, but like kind, I
kind of saw that he was likefalling along with the meanness
of everybody else, which is notat all something to do.
You should stand up to bullieseven when they're your friends,
et cetera.
But I gave him a little bit of apass on that and then when he
had her suck her finger becauseblood is salty and that broke

(08:34):
the spell, I saw that rightthere and I was like, oh, I see
where this is going.
I'm not gonna talk too muchabout it because you haven't
read the whole, the wholetrilogy.

Zinzi Bree (08:42):
Yep.

Okay.
I

Zinzi Bree (08:43):
Mm-hmm.

I did DNF The Cruel Prince at the same point.
Because of that.
However, I read the ZodiacAcademy and I was so upset.
I'm still upset.
I just finished book three.
I was listening to it on audiobecause I'm in a book club group
where there's a little bit moreinterest in some of the darker
fantasies, or romantics ingeneral.

(09:07):
And yeah,

Zinzi Bree (09:09):
that case,

does lean that

Zinzi Bree (09:10):
I don't see that there's a way to make a bully
romance that is not dark in myopinion.

I think in retrospect, I was really hoping
that they would recover fromthat more quickly in the Zodiac
Academy because it bothers theever living daylights out of me.
But they are slowly exposing allof the reasons behind it.
And I don't think that excusesany behaviors, they're also
bringing in the fact thatthey're all Fae and it's

(09:36):
basically all a little morallygray and it's totally expected
in the culture.
And that feels kinda like theauthor just reasoning out ways
to go ahead and have a bullyromance, so I'm very on the
fence about this.
I probably will finish it to sayI did, I hate DNFing when I've
got so far, but I did DNF theCruel Prince for like two years.
I finally came back and Ifinished book two.

(09:58):
Probably just right before wemet.
But

Zinzi Bree (10:01):
Hmm.

like, almost a year ago now that said.
still haven't picked up the nextbook because I never got to the
point where I was like supercommitted to the characters and
don't hate me, I DNF'd Outlanderof this scene in which Jamie,
punishes Claire, for doingsomething that was culturally
inappropriate at the time forwomen.

(10:23):
I could not get over Claire notmaking a big deal of it.
See, in the Zodiac Academy, atleast the girls are like, oh,
let's get our revenge.
And then it's this whole revengefantasy for the two girls for a
little while.
Like, okay, I can get behind arevenge fantasy.
But in Outlander they justdecide oh, I'll never touch you
like that again.
And that's what happens.

(10:44):
He doesn't, that's it.
But as you can see, I have thewhole series for Outlander back
here, and I still haven'tfinished them.
I think at some point I might,but I'll just skip over book
one.
The DNFing Bullies is always onpar with my moral code.

I did read at the first Outlander book and that
scene was super hard for me.
Also, I did keep re, I'm.
Very rarely DNF.
And usually it's when it's notsomething that I think is well
written.
One of the things I loved aboutCruel Prince is I love Holly
Black's writing style.
She does write books that arebasically girls who fall in love
with monsters, and that's alittle bit disturbing and

(11:24):
general, but kind of like prettymuch all of her books.
The male character, the loveinterest is if not an actual
vampire, fairly monstrous, inbehavior.
And the girls aren't like angelsthemselves, so there's that.
But all of her characters arepretty morally gray or dark.
But with Outlander, when thatpunishment happened, I just

(11:44):
never liked him again.
Some people really love like thesuper old fashioned macho male
lead, and that's just not me.
What is he spanked her a bunch.
Um,

whipped her with

oh, he whipped her.

Hmm.

Right.
See, I blocked it out and Iagree with you.
How could she not, how could sheaccept that and just be like,
oh, well,'cause he's so hot.

made

The sexist,

less

you know.

couldn't stand by her for the rest of
that book, although the TVseries did recover a lot of
that, to be fair.

Zinzi Bree (12:12):
Back to, now that we've just totally got off into
romance land.
Well, historical fantasyromance, for Outlander,

can we talk a little bit about defining what
makes it a dark fantasy versushorror fantasy?

Zinzi Bree (12:25):
Mm-hmm.

Is there a difference with that or grim
dark, if we're talking thatmorally gray is characters,
there is still I think aspectrum of dark.

Zinzi Bree (12:36):
what I was seeing when I looked it up for dark
fantasy, it was usually that.
Both the main characters and thesetting is, ambiguous.
There's not a clear moral codenecessary there isn't clear,
this is good, this is bad, inthe world.
And, there were some sub genreslike grim dark and gothic

(13:02):
fantasy, which

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (13:03):
Out of those, a gothic fantasy is most likely
what I would read over.
Dark fantasy that's more brutalin having violence and war and
murder and rape.
Dark magic.
So here's an example.
And maybe you ladies will have abook that has this, that is dark

(13:25):
fantasy where there's bloodrituals and blood sacrifices.
There's blood mages, okay.
I'm currently reading and verymuch enjoying Villains and
Virtues series by A.
K.
Caggiano I think it's CaggianoI'm probably mispronouncing her

(13:49):
name, but main character in thathe's a blood mage and he's
considered evil.
There's some very clear, theseare supposed to be the good gods
and these are the bad gods andthese are demons and there's.
very clear lines about what isand is not considered as far as
morality goes.
And there's a lot of humor andthere's a lot of fun and

(14:09):
lightness in the series.
Another similar one is likeAssistant to the Villain, where
you've got a bad guy who iseither by good as bad, or is
bad, but not in a, because I canfix him way, but just because
heroine is goodness and kindnessincarnate, makes the lead

(14:35):
character want to earn her anddeserve her.
And then shifts his behaviorthroughout the story, like those
are, but him being a blood mage,like how it's used, Feels very
different in that where it's, alighter fantasy, or even more
gothic versus like in bloodrituals where there's no

(14:57):
remorse, there's no thinkingabout it, there's just death and
I get the power.
But I haven't, I have not readthose other dark books where
that has the heavier version, ofBlood Mage or Blood Magic.

Okay, so one of my recommendations at the end
of the show is going to be HellBent and there is some darkness
like that they, but thecharacters do struggle with the
decisions, but they end upmaking them, for the better
good, so to speak.
then I also am thinking of AnneRice's series, especially when

(15:34):
it comes

Zinzi Bree (15:34):
Interview with a Vampire.

With a vampire.
Yes.
I also love

Zinzi Bree (15:38):
Hmm

her wolf books probably a lot more
honestly, but in Interview witha Vampire, there are very
morally gray, if not truly darkcharacters all over that don't
necessarily have a ton ofredeeming qualities that, yet
they still end up living prettydecent lives and whatnot.

(15:58):
There's definitely dark bloodrituals.
There's massacres that thevampires

Zinzi Bree (16:03):
mm-hmm.

twice about, so maybe that qualifies as one
of the more horrific branches ofdark fantasy.

Yeah, I was thinking about it because like I
just read Assistant to theVillain and that has some.
Torture referenced.
But to me it's really, it'shumorous and it's pretty
lighthearted, and the violenceis toned down, right?
It's not described in detail.
It's almost like it happens.
But the most, in that one, themost resonant violence was the,

(16:34):
almost sexual assault againstthe main character that had
happened in her past.
That's what resonated with methe most was that and the,
betrayal at the end that happensto the main character.

Zinzi Bree (16:46):
Spoilers.

that bothered me more than severed heads hanging
from the walls.
That's kind of like flippantlytalked about, so I wouldn't
consider that to be

Zinzi Bree (16:54):
Squishing eyeballs beneath her boot.

Exactly.
I've read lots of variousfantasy, I mean, vampire
supernatural fantasy where someof it is same thing.
It's just kind of vampires overthere and they're sucking the
blood outta people.
And it's not super, that's dark,but it's not written super dark.
It's written more morally grayalmost.
Or it's a mid, it's a gray bookversus a light book or a dark

(17:20):
book.
And then there's some where itis like extremely gruesome.
And I would say the Anne Ricestuff is a little more on the
dark side than maybe more likeya vampire stuff I'm thinking
Vampire Diaries for example,were yes, the characters are
vampires, but they're also hotand you can kind of find
redeeming qualities about them.
Is that then supernatural versusbeing dark fantasy?

(17:43):
And then is there a linebetween, having this violence
versus it being really darkbecause the characters don't
have remorse around that, theviolence that is being created
or there's no hope in the world?
I feel like a lot of really darkstuff.
It's you just know it's notgonna turn out well for anybody.
Um,

Zinzi Bree (18:02):
Hmm.

what I'm hearing is that we need like a
gray scale to place

Zinzi Bree (18:06):
Yeah.

on this line.
Like just how dark it, just howlight and yeah, maybe we should

I.

gray and dark fantasy.
And then the morally gray canjust apply to characters in
general.
So that's more of acharacterization.
but we

Zinzi Bree (18:20):
Mm-hmm.

and dark fantasy.
And that said the gray scale,maybe that's relevant at some
point.
Like just how light, just howdark.
'cause The Spellshop, The littlespell shop.
That is definitely light for me.
Like I never questioned if thecharacters

Zinzi Bree (18:35):
Mm-hmm.

I never questioned whether or not any
heavy or dark topics would comein.
And it was sweet and, you know,it lived up to its

Zinzi Bree (18:45):
Mm-hmm.

yes, it was an amazing book and it was light
for sure.
I feel no question on that one.

Zinzi Bree (18:49):
I am so excited for the Enchanted Greenhouse to come
out.
It's so soon.
Which is same world, sameauthor, and one of the
characters that was mentioned inThe Spellshop.
So The Spellshop is a greatexample of, of what light
fantasy is.
It's cozy fantasy.
I actually, I just saw, when Iwas looking it up, on the
interwebs, it called Cozy orLight Fantasy Noble Bright.

(19:14):
'Cause when I think of thecharacters that I would consider
Cozy fantasy characters inparticular, like Evie in
Assistant to the Villain, she'sall things, she's bright, she's
good hearted, she's nobleintentions, bright both in that
she's intelligent, but also thatshe's a very upbeat character.
Possibly obnoxiously up upright,um, for some people.

(19:38):
Yes.
The idea of it being noblebright, that to me felt like a
good lens for kind of defining,the characters in Cozy Fantasy.
I just recently read, Dreadfulby.
Nope, I'm not gonna be able topronounce the last name.
It'll show up on, screen, onYouTube, and it'll be in the
description.

(19:59):
Which was recommended to me fromone of, the people in my writing
group.
and it is gothic cozy fantasy

Ooh.

Zinzi Bree (20:08):
is a dark Lord had something backfire on him to
where he lost his memories ofhow he became the dark Lord.

Oh, I've heard of this one.

Zinzi Bree (20:19):
he's spending the book, trying to figure out who
he was, if he wants to be thatperson, if he wants to be who he
is now, and.
Trying to figure out the, thingsthat are the plot that he's
gotten himself into with fellowdark wizards.
Does he want to help them?
Does he want to foil them?
What does he do with theprincess that he's keeping in

(20:40):
the dungeon?
It had lots of gothic elements.
There's, a character that getsto death, not by the main
characters, does not burnedsomebody to death on the page.
But he had previously done thatin his dark wizard past, is
dealing with a lot of thesethings but the tone of it was
still so humorous.
It didn't have a moralisticlike, this is good, so you
should be good.

(21:00):
It was a very natural,well-written way of bringing
this character who had.
a past life been, one version ofhimself, and then now choosing.
I didn't like that version ofmyself.
I would like to go in adifferent direction.
Whether that's good or whetherit's just different, remains to

(21:21):
be seen.
'cause I'm, I'm hoping there'llbe a sequel.

Did you finish the book?

Zinzi Bree (21:26):
Yes,

I haven't read it.
Was there much about, whateverit was that happened in his past
that made him into that darkperson?
Because I would imagine, if youhad this, a lot of characters
have a wound or a ghost in theirpast that they need to overcome
or drags them down.
And if you lost your memory ofthat, maybe you wouldn't be
affected and all of a sudden youmight.

(21:48):
And not having this dark thingthat has happened to you, I
could see that turning you intoa very different person if you
don't remember it.
that's one of my favorite thingswhen talking about,'cause I
don't read a ton of lightfantasy.
The things I love is whenthere's like a really evil
villain and you find out whythey're so evil and you start to
have a little empathy for them,even though you don't

(22:08):
necessarily, still agree withtheir choices or want them to be
redeemed or anything like that.
That kind of lends itself withthe morally great characters.
Because then your charactersare, giving these reasons for
why they're making these choicesand it makes you think more
deeply about what would you doin that situation, right?
Is it's real easy.
From your chair that you'rereading in to be those choices

(22:31):
are so poor and I'm soaltruistic.
But in that position, you mightmake very similar choices.
It's an interesting kind ofpersonal reflection, and that's
one of the things I love mostabout morally gray characters.

Zinzi Bree (22:42):
Mm-hmm.

thinking back to trying to define dark
fantasy.
I wonder what you guys thinkabout this.
So we've discussed a little bitabout the horror elements in
fantasy and whether or not thatclassifies it as like a horror
fantasy or a fantasy horror asopposed to just dark.
And I'm not sure there's a greatanswer to that, but what do you
guys think of the ones that Ithink of as spiritually, morally

(23:09):
gray at best, if not spirituallydark?
Bringing up some pretty deepquestions there.
one that comes to mind right nowis called Slewfoot.
It's a woman who is accused ofbeing a witch, at a time when
witches were burned.
So

Zinzi Bree (23:27):
Hmm.

she goes and makes a pact with what we think
for most of the book is a demon,but which we learn is more of a
nature spirit who was out forrevenge.
So.
It does change her.
And in a way it becomes almosther own villain arc because she
goes on a rampage, but by thetime we get there, we are all in

(23:48):
full support of her absolutelydestroying this village in the
most bloody way possible.
And then we're like, hell yeah.
Go live your, your best natureloving self with the nature
spirits that take revenge onhumans who disrespect the
nature.
So it's really spiritually darkbecause you, I really thought

(24:10):
for most of the book it wasalmost demon.
I almost, I put it down severaltimes.
I was like, this is, I'm notsure I can get behind this
decision.
But by the end, it totallyrecovered it for me.
And then I just found it to be areally interesting journey for
me thinking about why I.
Let myself be led on the journeyI did by the author.

(24:33):
So I guess

Zinzi Bree (24:34):
Hmm.

to my point, how do we feel about more
spiritually dark beingclassified in the dark fantasy
realm?

Was there a lot of the bloody Retribution.
Was that shown on the page?
Like was it

it wasn't

described?

but it was definitely there.
It was, it was talked about notnecessarily experienced in a
really deep way.

I'm trying to think if I've read any books
where it is more likespiritually dark.

I mean, I have read some from particulars
perspectives, like a Christianperspective, thinking of
something like Piercing theDarkness.
That was one that I read way,way back when.

Zinzi Bree (25:13):
Peretti.

I felt at the time when I read that, it was so
dark, but it was, it was all aChristian perspective.
It was all about spiritualwarfare and all that kind of
thing.
I felt so complicated about it.
So I would classify that one asdark.
It's not, it's not fantasy.
So it might not belong in thepodcast, I think that's that
deep level of like, like a bookthat can push you to be

(25:38):
introspective about your ownspiritual perspectives and
reactions and the spiritualplane and all of that.
Does that still qualify asfantasy or does that like push
it out of that realm and is itjust dark or is it just weirdly
thought provoking and generallystrange?
I don't know.

(25:59):
I just, I don't have an answerfor myself.

Zinzi Bree (26:03):
when it comes to, This Present Darkness, Frank
Peretti's, that's actually oneof my favorite depictions of
both angels and demons, thatI've read.
that I've read a lot of that,but to me whether you consider
it spiritual or not, comes fromare you a spiritual person?
What is your faith like assomeone who's a Christian, I can

(26:25):
look at that book both from thelens of this is fantasy because
it's still, you know, theChronicles of Narnia is still
fantasy.
It's allegory, it's still inauthors interpretation of what
that could be.
So I would still call itfantasy.
It makes my brain bounce over toone of my other favorite
depictions of demons is C.S.
Lewis is The Screwtape Letters.

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree (26:47):
it's not cozy fantasy, but the tone is so
humorous, but manipulative thesetwo demons that are, writing to
each other about how tomanipulate, this chosen human,
towards sin and going to hell orwhatever.
And it's fascinating.
And it also short, so now I'mlike, I'm just, I'm gonna reread

(27:09):
that'cause it's a little bitfun.
There's some, and I don't getthe attraction for the, oh,
here's the morally gray herowho's hot.
get the mor the, the attractionto like, is fun, like evil.
That's fun, evil, that's funny.
Evil that is delighting in.

(27:30):
Ability to manipulate, like thatis what is attractive to me.
If I'm gonna read something thathas darkness and evil deeds.
Loki would be like,

one.

Zinzi Bree (27:41):
gonna read about Loki.
That's, beautifully played byTom Hiddleston.
And even early on in hisjourney, like he's bad at being
evil and he's ineffectualsometimes, in the, Marvel
cinematic universe.
Sorry, not books.
I'll it back.
Although comics, if that wantedto count,

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree (27:58):
I need some books that have, maybe we'll add that
in our book club.
'cause we're trying to do stuffthat's mythologically inspired.
Somebody in the comments, giveme your Loki books.
Where are the, Loki as the loveinterest, Norse mythology.
Books.

there's a

Zinzi Bree (28:16):
Send, send it to me.

There is actually, I haven't read it, but, there is
a Loki book, I believe it is aDisney produced

Hmm.

novel.
It's a marvel, Disney approved.
But it is written by, I can'tremember her name.
She wrote The Gentleman's Guideto Vice and Virtue.
I'm pretty sure it's thatauthor.

Zinzi Bree (28:34):
That's on my TBR.

she was brought on to write this book about Loki
and I think it's just calledLoki.
And I started it and it wassuper funny.
I had just read like the firstpage'cause it's just sitting on
my shelf, so once I read that,then I will add a comment,
whether it's a recommendation ornot.
So back to light, dark andmorally gray.

(28:55):
I was thinking about it as wewere getting ready for this
podcast., Had I really readanything super light and had I
ever read anything super dark?
'cause I feel like I am firstand foremost a fan of epic
fantasy.
I feel Epic fantasy often fallsa little more in the middle
where there is dark elements,but there's also like these
amazing heroes that, you know,come out to save the day.

(29:16):
So things generally end uppretty happy at the end.
I did start realizing that I hadread more Dark Fantasy.
I don't know if either of youhave read this, but Joe
Abercrombie wrote The First Lawtrilogy and the first one's
called The Blade Itself.
And it's very like swordfighting there at the three main
characters.
There is a berserker called theBloody nine.

(29:39):
And then there's the Torturerwho was my favorite character.
And this is an example of likethis, it's not blood ritual so
much, but he is a torturer.
He is literally cutting peopleup and it goes pretty graphic
into it.
And yet I loved him as acharacter and there was a little
bit of humor.
The third character was thiswannabe noble prince who took on
the role of the good guy, butwas not a very nice person

(30:03):
inside.
And the way that the author liketook these kind of tropes and
flipped them was so beautifullydone.
It is gritty there's lots ofblood and violence and stuff,
and I would actually say ifthere was a morally gray genre,
even though there's darkness init, that would be like a morally
gra race.
'cause you really don't come outwith feeling like anything in

(30:27):
the world.
Is anything but complex.
Have either of you read thatone?

No, I haven't, but you're making me
think of the Game of Thronesright now, where all of the
characters have their ownmorally gray journey, if not
morally bad.
And some of them become a littlebetter, some of'em become worse.
Some of'em just die because theylive their little violent bit
and that's all they were usefulfor.
But it, I don't know the bookthat you're talking about, but

(30:59):
I, it does make me think of, ofthe Game of Thrones and just
gritty that one is.

yeah, it has a similar kind of dark vibe, but
there's maybe a bit more humor.
Not a lot of humor, but a littlebit more humor than Game of
Thrones.

Zinzi Bree (31:13):
Dungeon Crawler Carl, that is, It's Lit RPG, but
that's one of the darkestfantasies that I have read.

I've heard of that one.

Zinzi Bree (31:21):
I was listening to that.
I got through first couple ofbooks and then had to stop
because one, I had binged them,but two, just like being
immersed in the grittiness andthe death and The humor's
fantastic, but it didn't balanceout the darkness for me where,
and this happened to my husbandtoo, where we both were like, we
have to take a break from this.

(31:42):
And I haven't gone back to thatseries yet.
Because it got too dark.
So there's a question we cantalk about is, how dark is too
dark?
I would assume as I don't readvery much dark fantasy, that
dark humor would also be, you'rechopping up body parts and then
thinking about, that you'regonna make soup later and, oh,

(32:02):
this man's arm is kind of like achicken leg where you just rip
it off and it's the same thing.
And then,

Are you sure you don't read a lot of dark
fantasy?

Yeah.
The insider's

you should write it.

Zinzi Bree (32:15):
Well that's, I, might just be thinking more
Dungeon Crawler Carl, where atsome point you're strong enough,
you could just rip somebody'sarm off and then beat them with
it.
but that's probably also becausesome of, movies like, Deadpool
he could rip his own arm off andthen beat somebody with it and a
new arm would grow back in.
At first it would be the reallyawkward, little baby hand arm

(32:36):
and then grow the rest of theway

Right, like the dark humor changes it from being
super dark.

Zinzi Bree (32:43):
okay.
So as, a reader, I read lightsand cozy and, if they're dark or
morally gray, it's becausethey're funny.
That's what gets me to readthose books.
Versus Sage, sounds like muchmore, you read darker, complex,
epic, high fantasy, hopefullywith humor, but not necessarily,

(33:07):
and you're saying for youlighter books what about them?
Doesn't attract you to them.

Oh, that's a good question.
Well, I really love the morallygray complexity of characters
first of all, like you nailedit.
I like complex plots and I like,characters having to make
decisions that are complicatedand are not.
Who is always doing the rightthing.

(33:35):
They're more maybe selfish.
They have something in themdriving them to make decisions
that are not always the mostaltruistic decision.
So I like the idea that story isa way for us to learn how we
would make choices.
Obviously I don't live in aswords and sorcery type world
and I'm not making those kindsof choices, but it, when the

(33:58):
characters have a morally grayperspective, it gives a little
more insight as to why peoplemake the kinds of choices that
they do.

Zinzi Bree (34:07):
Hmm.

And as to why I don't really go for light, I
think I just like drama.
That's what it comes down to.
I'm not a very dramatic person.
My life is pretty steadfast.
I am conflict avoidant, and so Iget my drama from my books

I love

Zinzi Bree (34:27):
Fair.

of close the cover on it, put it on a shelf
and come back when you're readyfor more too.

Yeah,

life drama you can't.

Zinzi Bree (34:33):
Mm-hmm.

a hundred percent.

Cool.
I guess I'll answer for darkthen, read across the board.
I love light.
Gray and dark fantasy, but whenit comes to dark, what attracts
me to it when I'm in the moodfor something darker is usually
because I like the introspectionof it and I like a little bit of
the reality of it in a sensetoo.

(34:57):
And I actually kind of like howsome of it avoids drama.
It kind of skips over some ofthat because that's never what's
most important in the plot.
And that makes me think of,Leigh Bardugo's recent.
I mentioned it earlier, guys.

Zinzi Bree (35:11):
Hell bent

no, I mean, I love Hell Bent.
Highly recommend that one, butthis recent one that she wrote
It's gotta be something else.
What the familiar, The Familiarthat is what it's

Oh, yes.

called the Familiar, and it definitely
makes one thinks about theirmoral, leanings, I guess.
who do I agree with in thissituation?
And in the end, I fully supportagain, the main character Leigh
Bardugo really walks that linereally well of building
characters that you mighteventually come to dislike, but
that you never do, you can stillfully get behind their ultimate

(35:43):
decisions.
So there I am with Dark Fantasy.
I like ones that are kind ofdeep more provoking.

Can I ask a quick question about the idea of like
horror fantasy, is that darkfantasy, or do we think that
that's something.
Even more like dark fantasy, butwith like lots of gore.

Zinzi Bree (36:04):
so I think this has to do with tone because I
recently read, How to Get aGirlfriend(When You're a
Terrifying Monster), where oneof the main characters, is a
part of a cthulhu lifedevouring, life ending monster.
But the tone of it was just fun.

(36:26):
there was existential crisis forthat character being like, do
I'm not human.
I'm this terrible void monster.
What do I do with that?
How do I exist in the not voidrealm as this thing?
so I, very much think it has todo with treatment of tone,
treatment, of setting, and Ilove that the book world is

(36:50):
doing this more where they'regoing, what is this thing?
can I take a cthulhu characterand make it lovable, make it,
want a girlfriend?
set it in, a scientific,location.

(37:12):
I feel like now we're seeing alot more play with those kinds
of things across genre tones,whether it is dark, whether it
is cozy and light, than even adecade ago.

when it comes to deciding if a book is more of
a fantasy horror, or a darkfantasy, I'm like, what is the
most prevalent part of thestory?
What's the driving part?
Is it the fantasy that we are soconcerned with?
Is it that we are trying torepresent this graphic horror?
Okay, great.
If those are the two things,then it's a fantasy horror.

(37:48):
But if it just so happens to belike a fantasy with romance and
a super strong evil versus goodarc that horror happens to play
into, I would probably just lumpthat into a dark fantasy.
So.
Maybe it just comes down towhat's the purpose of the novel?

So less about amount of blood and gore on the
page and more about the purposebehind it, behind showing that.

or the plot arcs themselves, like is the
relevance of that element, thathorror element to the plot.

Nice, because I steer away from, horror based
stuff generally, but there hasbeen some like body horror that
I've, read that I.
Love, even though I'm surprisedthat I love it.
I just read, They Bloom atNight, it's not exactly a
fantasy, it's probably more,what's the word?
Like dystopian.
'cause it's like a near futurecalamity where, an environmental

(38:52):
disaster starts creating thesemonstrous creatures and the
teenage main character getsinvolved in the situation.
And it's a lot about who you areas a person.
There's some gender stuff inthere, and then it's also, it's
excellent.
I think I cried at the end.
It's pretty intense.
Hard to read.
But there was enough monsterystuff in there that it's well,
is this horror?

(39:14):
Is it.
I guess it's dark, like darkdystopia.
I mean, dystopian always dark,but it didn't exactly have
fantasy'cause there wasn't magicin there.
But there is, it's kinda likewhat we were talking about, how
the, the genres are starting toblur or are harder to define as
people experiment with differentthings.

Zinzi Bree (39:32):
All right.
Who's your favorite morally graycharacter that you've read?

Okay, I am gonna just say, Manon in Blackbeak is
my favorite morally graycharacter from, a Throne of
Glass series.
She comes out later in theseries and she's this witch who,
has a great, I just love hercharacter arc, how she bonds
with her, her w Mount that shetakes on.

(39:56):
She's meant to be the heir ofher clan of witches, and she is
supposed to be this badass andhave no, emotion or, goodness
within her and her grandma,who's the one who raised her
basically is super hard on herand expects her to be so tough.
And then this very compassionateside starts to bloom between

(40:16):
her, relationship with her andher w who is, she chose like the
runt of the litter when andbonded with him and when they,
Abraxos and then that therelationship between the two of
them is like, what makes her soamazing to me.
I love, I love that.
And just seeing her kind of comethrough the expectation of her

(40:39):
upbringing and finding her trueself and what she actually
believes in.
And she doesn't inherentlybecome a good person by the end
of it, but she becomes a muchmore, likable.
I liked her all along, even whenshe was killing humans.
And talking about eating themand stuff.
So I just like loved her fromthe start.
But then seeing her characterarc, I really enjoyed that quite

(41:00):
a lot, and that's why she's myfavorite.

Zinzi Bree (41:02):
What about you, Katherine?

I cannot come up with like just one.
I, I love so many and honestly Iam probably not even thinking of
whomever would be my favorite.
What I did is I looked at theshelf behind me real quick and I
pulled out a couple.
So I kind of do think of the MCsin The Night Circus as morally

(41:25):
grey.
The plot is, more about winningthe game that they are all
involved in opposed to.
Making the right decisions forthe human being behind the
decision.
So I definitely think there'ssome moral grayness in there.
And also the tone is justamazing.

I think because we've decided that, morally gray
is not a genre and you can findmorally gray characters in the
whole spectrum of.

Zinzi Bree (41:50):
Yes.

right from the very most light, you might still
have a slightly morally graylike villain perhaps, or side
character all the way to superdark.

Zinzi Bree (42:00):
Mm-hmm.

And moreover, it's, it's an industry-wide
preference these days to have

Zinzi Bree (42:07):
Yeah.

with complicated interiority.
That tends to push them into themorally gray area opposed to say
50 or a hundred years ago whencharacters were a lot more
cookie cutter because that's theway culture preferred it at the
time.
They really liked

Zinzi Bree (42:25):
Yep.

closer to black and white as much as
possible be super culturallyacceptable.
And now we don't, we almostrebel against that now as a
culture.

Zinzi Bree (42:35):
to me it feels much easier to pick out because when
it comes to a morally graycharacter, there is so much
thought into would I make thesame decisions?
Do they grow?
Those sorts of things.
Like if you have a characterthat is.
Just good or even a characterthat's bad.
They're not equally asmemorable, are they?

(42:56):
Like, do you have, do you have acharacter that you can think of
that like, this is a wholly goodcharacter that I love and wanna
talk about?

Ooh, that's an excellent question.
This is comic books not themovies, but Batman versus
Superman.
Superman.
I think maybe in later comics hegot some like moral complexity.
But he was just good.
He did what was right.
He was always so good.
And Batman was so dark andconflicted, and I loved Batman
so much.
My brother had all these comicsand I would read all of them.

(43:26):
And, I loved Batman because hewas complicated and, to me
Superman was super boring.

Yes.

And, you know, there was some things about him
that I liked, but in general hewas just kind of dull.
So I, can keep thinking, butthat's my initial response is
the like bright hero is a littlebit boring.

Zinzi Bree (43:48):
So, I grew up with watching Smallville, and so
Superman's my guy, and CaptainAmerica.
I like the guys that make themoral choices and, you know, are
always gonna, they're gonna doCaptain America's case, they're
gonna do the stupid thingbecause it's right.
And,

I, whereas I just love Tony Stark.
He is like a hundred percentTony Stark.

Zinzi Bree (44:13):
Anyway.
I like their coming of agestories where they're, you know,
developing into that good personwho's going to make moral
choice, in spite of thesacrifices that they'll have to
make to make the good choice.

Interesting.
Even just talking about this, Iwanna go back and add a
character to my favorite morallygrey's list and add the Witcher
to

Zinzi Bree (44:36):
Please do.

Oh,

Zinzi Bree (44:38):
Oh,

He's a really good, complex, morally gray
character who we all.
Love to love and feelcomplicated about at other
times, especially some of theother characters in the book.
Like, his romantic interest,purple Eyes, whatever her name
is.

Zinzi Bree (44:56):
Purple eyes.

I don't remember her name, but she it, she had a
weird, yeah,

Zinzi Bree (45:02):
Yennefer.
It's Yennefer

that's it.

And she's definitely morally gray and we
all love her and we all hateher.
And I think that she's a wellbuilt character, at least from
what I've read.
I haven't finished the wholeseries, I also wanna go back and
amend my previous statementabout, our culture is rebelling
against morally predictable,good and bad characters.

(45:28):
In the sense that I think ahundred years ago, our world was
in such a place with all thewars and everything, or our
nation was that that was therebellion against the darkness
that they saw in the real world.

Zinzi Bree (45:40):
Hmm.

It does feel like right now there's a big trend
towards cozy, in recent years,possibly stemming from.
Upheavals in

Life

world over the last number of years.
Cozy has always existed, and Idon't know if it's just that
there's more being published inlike the fantasy genre, for
example.
But I remember reading CozyMystery as a kid, and that's
definitely existed, right?
But it does feel like there's atrend towards people wanting
something comforting, but then Ialso think there is a trend
towards people wanting real, wewanna see our heroes be like

(46:11):
real people who are strugglingand it's not easy for them, and
they still do what's right.
Because I think that that's howwe as humans.
Who are struggling, we wanna seethat you can still do what's
right through the struggle.
And that now makes for a reallygood hero.
And so I think that lends peopleinto loving the morally gray
complex characters a little bitmore, especially when they come

(46:33):
out doing the right thing or thebest thing that they can do in
the situation.

Or if they make the wrong decisions and
then have to figure their wayout of whatever hole they've dug
for themselves because of thatdecision, that's also very
relatable humanity.
I mean, how many times have westuck our foot in our mouths at
a very important moment?
And our characters do that, andwe're like, why did you do that?
It was a simple decision to keepyour mouth shut and, and yet the

(47:01):
characters go and do it.
And we are embarrassed for them,and we hate them for it.
And they didn't make the rightdecision clearly, but.
Then they figure their way outof the whole and they rebuild
our trust with them ascharacters.
And eventually their growth arcus love them even more than
wherever we started with them.

When you said about put the characters that
put their foot in their mouth, Iwas like, oh, that's like me,
this whole podcast.
As I interrupt people and starttalking about comic books.

We don't

Zinzi Bree (47:33):
said.

of sticking to point still.

Zinzi Bree (47:36):
That's assuming we had points to begin with.
It's guidelines.
They aren't hard rules Piratesof the Caribbean here.
It's guidelines.

of my favorite movies of all time.

Zinzi Bree (47:45):
what is your book recommendation for light, dark
and morally gray?
I am gonna do mine real quickhere so my recommended read is
Thrown in the Dark by A.
K.
Caggiano ca ca cagiano

cagiano.

Zinzi Bree (47:59):
C-A-G-G-I-A-N-O.
I feel so bad that I'm screwingup your last name, but your
books are delightful.
And I highly recommend, if youliked Assistant to the Villain.
It is very much in that vein,although I'm pretty sure it was
written first, where you've got,grumpy Sunshine, magic Blood
mages It's loads of fun.

(48:20):
There's a, imp sidekick with alot of attitude.

love.

Zinzi Bree (48:25):
I highly recommend the audio book.
There's two narrators, who do areally good job, in my opinion,
of bringing the characters tolife so thrown in the dark, the
Villain and Virtues series by A.
K.
Caggiano.

Added to my to be red.
I am going to recommend, a grayfantasy.
It's the Gilded Wolves byRoshani Chokshi, I believe is
how you pronounce her last name.
And it is a heist fantasy thattakes place in an alternate,

(48:58):
earth.
It's kind of like a historicalfantasy, with a heist element.
And I love heist stories ingeneral.
And, it lends itself to a lot ofmorally great characters.
I believe that there are fivepoint of view characters in this
book.
There's a couple romancesubplots.
It's the first of a trilogy, sobe prepared for that.
It's a lot of fun.

I will go ahead and recommend Hell Bent by
Leigh Bardugo.
I think that is an excellentbook.
It leans to the dark.
I wouldn't say that it'soutrageously dark.

Zinzi Bree (49:29):
thank you so much for listening.
This has been Book DragonBanter.
We are a baby podcast, soplease, please, please, please,
subscribe rate and review andall the things that you feel
inspired to do.
our book club, read.
Episode is the Last Dragon ofthe East by Katrina Kwan.
So if you wanna pick that up andread it before we cover it, You

(49:51):
can find us on social media, Andoutside of the podcast, you
can't really find me Zinzi Breeon the internet'cause I don't
really go to other places.
But I do run a cozy littlecorner of, zoom writing in
person meetups several times aweek.
If you're interested in that,send us an email.

So you can find me @sagemoreaux.com.
It's Moreaux with an X, I'm alsoon Instagram and Substack, which
is where I'd really love you tofollow me.
So go ahead and check that out.

And I am Katherine Suzette.
You can type in Katherinesuzette.com or you can hit me
up@bookdragoneditorial.com.
They will both take you to thesame site, I can be found on
social media as KatherineSuzette book editor.
So go find me and feel free tosend me a dm.

Zinzi Bree (50:38):
You can get your book Dragon Banter Fix every
other week on Tuesday, Thank youso much for tuning in.
the bloopers.

We didn't do our, um, fun facts.
Katherine and I didn't do funfacts, I'm Sage Moreaux and a
fun fact about me is that Iregularly debate in my mind
whether I am lawful good orneutral.
Good.
I think I'm lawful good like 98%of the time, so I don't know.
Does that make me neutral?

(51:12):
Good.

I don't know.
Zinzi said earlier somethingabout the, the villains that she
likes and everything.
Maybe she's chaotic.
Good.
What do you think Zinzi if Sageis Neutral

Ooh,

good.
Are you chaotic?
Good.

Zinzi Bree (51:26):
Oh, absolutely.
Chaotic.
Good.

I might be chaotic.
Morally gray.
I don't know.

chaotic, neutral.
That's like

Zinzi Bree (51:34):
That's, that's

a big challenge.

neutral.

I I'm such a huge rule follower that people that
play board games with me knowthat we have to like take
multiple breaks to check therule manual to make sure that
we're playing the gamecorrectly.

Okay.
Well then maybe we figured

Zinzi Bree (51:49):
I was.

fun fact is that, if there's a way to cheat
at a game and I can figure itout, I probably will.

Zinzi Bree (52:00):
Oh, that's great.
I have an entire wall full ofboard games in my house and like
a very fancy, expensive table,expensive piece of furniture
that we own that is a boardgaming table.
And I'm the person that readsthe rules, but I'm also the
first person to go, this rulesucks.
Let's make a house rule.
That makes it more fun.

it'll be interesting when the three of us
get together and play some boardgames.

Zinzi Bree (52:23):
We'll, we'll be eagerly eye staring at Katherine
to being like, how is shecheating?

it actually might be a terrible idea'cause that
might be the end of the podcast.

Oh, no.
I not.

Zinzi Bree (52:33):
I'm gonna bring my deck of ACH and we're gonna play
ACH because that's, that's StarWars Poker.

Ooh.

Zinzi Bree (52:40):
Poker, well, star Wars blackjack actually.
Um, and we are gonna play it forlike Starburst or M&M's.
Or Popcorn,

That's fair.

Zinzi Bree (52:48):
that's the only way I will play with you.
if I know one of you isabsolutely gonna cheat and the
other one is gonna startthrowing stuff, if we don't
follow the rules,

Yeah.
M&m's right at your forehead

Okay.
When we finally get to go on ourown personal retreat where we
get to meet each other and doall of our photos and
everything, we'll do a game seshand we'll all have our little
mics and we'll just like recordand do like a little highlights
what it's like.

Zinzi Bree (53:15):
Yes.
Yeah.

all of the M&M's bouncing off your forehead.

Zinzi Bree (53:22):
Well

No, I'm not.
I'm conf.

Zinzi Bree (53:23):
Scenes of us trying to like, ah.
It's catch in your mouth.

Oh yeah,

Zinzi Bree (53:28):
suck at that.

me too.

Zinzi Bree (53:30):
or, yep.

That's what cleavage is for.
Please don't put that in.

Zinzi Bree (53:36):
Did

Okay.
I quit.
I'm fired from podcast.

Zinzi Bree (53:46):
Podcast.
We're so unhinged by the end ofthis.
It's amazing.

visible,

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