Ep.2 Romance, Some-mance, or No-mance?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zinzi Bree (00:00):
Welcome back to Book Dragon.
Darn.
Stop making background noise.
Welcome back to Book DragonPodcast, book Dragon Banter.
I'm gonna...
great.

Katherine Suzette | Book C (00:11):
say, shake it off, shake it off.

Zinzi Bree (00:13):
it off.
Yeah.
Yep.
Reel it in.
Welcome back to book DragonBanter podcast.
A fantasy focused but notexclusive book podcast.
We are three, aspiring writershere to talk about books.
We chat about tropes we love,what characters we love to hate,

(00:36):
and everything in between.
And today we are talking aboutsome-mance, romance, and
no-mance in fantasy books.

Sage (00:44):
So this podcast is rated explicit, not because we swear a
whole lot, but because we talkabout books that have explicit
content and we do get into them.
So if you have someone with youwho is not ready to read young
adult books or older, werecommend that you listen with
your headphones on.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coa (01:04):
If you wanna know what spoilers we
might be talking about, take alook at the show notes to see
which books are mentioned.
And if you don't wanna hearthose spoilers, feel free to
skip over that part and justmove on.

Zinzi Bree (01:14):
We are on to our discussion questions for
romance, some-mance, or no-mancein fantasy books.
And I'm gonna kick us off withdefining romance.
For a fantasy book what isromance?
Are we talking about a knockingboots scene in your books?

(01:36):
Are we talking about heartspounding and, and fingers
brushing, but, no explicitaction on the page?
Do those both equally qualify asromance or as some of that,
some-mance or no-mance?
What's your take?

Sage (01:49):
I think that spice level is different than the concept of
romance in a book.
So to me, the romance can be aslimited as just like some
lingering looks or flirting.
But that you could also go fullon explicit sex scenes and that

(02:09):
counts as romance, especially ifit's part of the plot of the
characters, presumably likingeach other at least somewhat, or
wanting to you know, deepentheir relationship and that the
part of the plot is thedeveloping relationship or the
enemies to lovers transition.
So spice level doesn'tnecessarily mean more romance to

(02:30):
me.
It's more like, is it a primaryplot or is it a subplot, or is
it just a side thing of like, ohyeah, those characters are off
in the alleyway and it's notactually that big of a deal.
'cause that's not what the plotis about at all.

Zinzi Bree (02:43):
For it to qualify as a romance, do you think that the
romantic action has to be comingfrom your main characters or is
it also a romance if your maincharacter is not involved in the
romance?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coac (02:57):
I think that what matters is
what's getting the audience toturn the page.
So that is related to what isthe plot with the MCs.

Sage (03:06):
Yeah, I would say that to me, if it's not the main
characters in the relationship,it's a lot closer to some-mance,
even if there is a lot ofromantic elements in the story.
To me, a romance generally isthe main characters journey
towards love.

Zinzi Bree (03:27):
Hmm.

Katherine Suzette | (03:28):
Especially, it depends on whose interiority
we have.
So if our MC doesn't havelingering thoughts, they aren't
pining, they aren't engineeringsituations in which they look
one way to the other person ortrying to be close to them then
I would not necessarily think ofthat as a romance.
I think that the perspective onthe page, that interiority is

(03:49):
part of what creates thatromantic tension for the MCs.

Sage (03:53):
All the like thoughts of how good looking they are

Yes,

Sage (03:57):
over and over and over.

Zinzi Bree (03:59):
Yep.
Yep.
Oh gosh.
Those bulging muscles.
Oh man.
He's, he fell in the lake andgot out and his shirt is
drenched and I can, it's seethrough.
Oh, no.
What do I do?
Not a Colin Firth original Prideand Prejudice fan.

Katherine Suzette | Book Co (04:13):
Oh, my favorite.

Zinzi Bree (04:14):
here.

Oh.

Zinzi Bree (04:15):
I have to scroll back.
Roll back here for a second.
I forgot to include while, yes,we will be, doing our best to
talk about books, we will bebringing in pop culture
references just becausesometimes that's easier to make
or point and give an explanationabout a book theory or a story
concept as writers, because morepeople are just aware of

(04:37):
something that's in pop culturethan in every book that we're
discussing.
Because, you know, some of youmight be early in your reader
journey where you're justgetting into fantasy books.
You're just getting into, someof the things that we're gonna
talk about and that's great andyou can come here to learn.
But, we want to do our best tomake our points.

(04:59):
Easy to digest, easy tounderstand.
And pop culture helps with that.

Sage (05:03):
It's all story.

Zinzi Bree (05:04):
Yeah, it's all story.
That's a great, that is a greatpoint.
Sage.
So we're defining romance infantasy as a book where the main
characters we're getting theirinternal thoughts as to their
attraction for the other person,their desires for the other
person, is what's happening andwhether, whether they get

(05:27):
together or not, whether theyhave the HEA, or it's a slow
burn.
Throughout a book series, it isstill central to the main
character's desires.
That other person for romance.
Versus a some-mance is, that isnot the main character's central
desire.
There is something else that isdriving them more strongly than

(05:50):
their romantic or relationaldesires for another person.
Right?
Where we've got, we've gotanother plot that matters more?

Sage (06:00):
I would say that it's not necessarily as much about their
desire,'cause there might bepoints in the plot of a
some-mance where the character'sromance as the subplot is what's
filling their mind the most.
Like they might be like soobsessed over whatever just
happened with the romanticinterest and that's what's taken

(06:20):
over as opposed to the mainplot.
But more that there is a mainplot that is driving the story
that is the primary driver tothe storyline and that the
romance is alongside that.
Whereas I think that, romancemeans that whether or not they
end up together like that is themain thing with the story.

(06:42):
That whatever else is going onis just there to help or hinder
the relationship from happening.
And to me, romance generallymeans happily ever after or
happily for now.
Is that more romantasy whereit's a combination of a romance
novel with a fantasy setting?
Is that the difference betweenromantasy and romance and a

(07:02):
fantasy book?
I don't know.

Zinzi Bree (07:06):
Well, that starts getting into fantasy romance or
romantic fantasy.
Like what's, what defines thosetwo things, which then, you
know, now we have the genre termromantasy, which is a romance in
a fantasy setting.

Sage (07:19):
So do we think romantasy is basically a romance story arc
in a fantasy setting?
Would that be how we woulddescribe romantasy specifically?

Zinzi Bree (07:32):
Yes.
That's what I would describe aromantasy in a romantic fantasy
that then got squished into thatone word.
Versus, I think of fantasyromance, where those are
reversed, that's more likely tobe a monster romance or the, the
setting of the fantasy is sostrong that's what comes first,

(07:55):
in your mind, and then theromance comes after.
Except those are, I, gosh, Idon't know if that's true
because those are monsterromances.
They are romances.
It just happens to be a monstercharacter.
I do wanna go back to our bookexamples for defining fantasy
romance or romantic fantasy.
particularly using Twilight andFourth Wing.

(08:18):
'cause we talked about thisbefore, where Twilight it's a
romantasy You can't take Edwardout.
You can't take the vampires outand still have a story.
Then it's just, Bella at a newschool.
That's the entire plot ofTwilight.
If you take out Edward andTaylor Lautner- name PROMPT,

(08:38):
name.

Katherine Suzette | Book (08:39):
Jacob,

Sage (08:40):
Oh,

Zinzi Bree (08:40):
thank you team Jacob.
Out Edward or you take outJacob.
And again, it's still just a newgirl at a school.
There's no fantasy.
There's no

Sage (08:50):
a lot of rain.

Zinzi Bree (08:51):
yes.
Yeah.
Just a lot of rain

Sage (08:53):
If Edward isn't in it, then yeah, there is no plot.

Zinzi Bree (08:56):
Mm-hmm.

Sage (08:57):
Or there's a plot that's so boring.
Who would read it?
You need that romance to makethe story fun, right?
To make it even a story.

Zinzi Bree (09:06):
Versus Fourth Wing, you could take out Xaden, like
you can have her show up at thisschool, try and survive, say
every day,"I will not dietoday".
And there's still plot, there'sstill a whole ton of stuff going
on where she's fighting for herlife where there's high stakes,

(09:27):
if Xaden isn't in the picture.
So that one is, I would say, notjust romantasy.
That could be a fantasy romancewhere your fantasy is so there
that it can do without theromance.
I know it would not be this fun,not everybody's cup of tea.
If Xaden wasn't in there.
But, there is still enough plotthat it could stand on its own.

Sage (09:52):
I don't think it would be the blockbuster that it ended up
being if you didn't have Xaden,like the page turning element of
some of the romance, in some ofthese books, like excitement
around the slow burn basicallyof the romance between the
characters is like what gets youturning a lot of pages.
But I agree, there is somereally fun stuff about the

(10:14):
trials to become a cadet andpicking your dragon, and that
scene where she walks through,and all of the dragons are so
huge and intimidating.
Are they gonna burn you alive?
Are you gonna claim one or twoor you know, what's gonna
happen?
And like, he doesn't matter atall in that scene.
Right.
That's an amazing scene.
But if he wasn't in it, would asmany people read, I don't know.

Zinzi Bree (10:39):
Hmm.

I think that's a really great way
of putting it.
Which plot supports which plot.
And in Fourth wing, I definitelythink that the romance supports
the overall plot, which is, thedragons, the war, and our main
character staying alive.
But in something else, I'mthinking of a Dark Romance.
It's one of those likePersephone, Hades ones.

(11:01):
Sorry, I can't think of thefirst one right now.
But, essentially the plot inthat only supports the romance
moving forward.
Just like with your Twilightexample.
Anything outside of romance onlysupports the romance moving
forward in reaching theaudience's preferred conclusion.
Without the romance, the plotwouldn't matter so much.
Whereas in Fourth Wing, the plotis still really great.

(11:23):
The writers might have had toadd in some other elements to
fill in some gaps, but it stillwould've been incredibly
engaging.
We have plenty of YA books andstuff that are high fantasy that
don't need a huge romance arcfor audiences to still adore

(11:44):
them.

Sage (11:45):
Yeah, I'm thinking a lot of Brandon Sanderson books might
have the lightest bit of romanceand more because characters
exist in a world where we dohave relationships with each
other, right?
We might have a crush onsomeone, or date someone, or
have an existing divorce, ormarriage or it's complicated
kind of situation.

(12:06):
So that makes for a real person.
Whereas it's not at all part ofthe plot.
It's just making the world seemmore realistic.
The characters seem morerealistic to have it.
I'm particularly thinking hisyoung adult trilogy.
The Mistborn Trilogy.
I believe there's a little bitof romance in there, I read it a
while ago and the romancedoesn't stand out to me at all.

(12:28):
It's about the team of thievesand their plot and the magic,
all of that stuff is what standsout to me so much more than any
side relationship that happens.
And, same with The Way of Kings.
There's some character romancein there very lightly, but you
could take it out completely andall it would do would be feel
slightly unrealistic becausenobody had a crush or nobody had

(12:51):
a marriage or conflict between,an ex-wife or whatever.
A brother-in-law's wife, awidow.
If there wasn't thebrother-in-law's widow that you
kind of had a crush on all yourlife.
Like that's a realistic thing,but it doesn't that you could
take that out and the plot wouldcontinue and everything would be
just as exciting.
Yeah.

That was a very specific example
Sage.
A brother-in-law's widow.

Sage (13:18):
One of my favorite characters.
Yeah.
One of my favorite characters inThe Way of Kings.
I think I read three of thebooks so far.
'Cause there's, I think there'sfive now and I haven't read them
all.
One of my favorite characters isDalinar, who's secretly like in
love with his dead brother'swife.

I haven't read it yet.

Zinzi Bree (13:34):
Ooh,

Sage (13:35):
Yeah, that was that specific.
But it's so minor of an- theyinteract with each other.
There, there's our spoilers.
They interact with each other.
But it's such a minor elementthat I would like, it's not, I
would say it's a no-mance.

Yeah,

Zinzi Bree (13:46):
I think is a little bit funny because...
that's being in love with yourbrother's widow, that's the plot
for some romance books whereit's like, oh, but I can't
because it, it means I didn'tlove my brother, or have I
secretly been in love with herthe entire time they've been
married.
And that's wrong.
And I feel guilty.

(14:07):
That's the plot of one of theBridgerton books

Sage (14:08):
I read that one.

Zinzi Bree (14:10):
Yeah.
Francesca.
Not fantasy.
Sorry guys.
That's a romance's plot.
But you're saying that that wasso minor, it could be written
out and not be relevant.
And the whole rest of the storywas happening around it.

Sage (14:23):
Yeah, from The Way of Kings.
I would say that it addscomplexity to the character and
adds character depth.
But it doesn't- the plot won'tstall without it.
Right?
It adds complications becausethere's scenes where those two
characters are together and youknow that he has all of these
feelings and you don't know whatshe thinks because it's through
his point of view.
So there is an added layer ofcomplexity, but that's to make

(14:47):
there be a little more conflictin the scene, right?
It ultimately, and of coursethen you, you like the
character, you want them to behappy.
And so there's a little bit oflike, oh, I hope that they end
up together, or I hope they getto work this out.
But at the end of the day, whatyou really need is to make sure
that your entire kingdom isn'twiped out by the enemy.
And there's this huge otherbunch of stuff that's happening

(15:08):
that is so much more importantthat that could just fall by the
wayside.
You know?
And really what you don't wantis for them to have a
relationship that comes to ahead and causes a problem for
the war.
But, it doesn't because it's nota romance.
If it was a romance, then that,that would be a huge piece,
right?
You would have some romanticsub-plot element that made

(15:31):
everything come to a haltbecause the romance is what's
important.

Zinzi Bree (15:36):
Mm-hmm.
For you, as a reader, romantasy-yay or nay?
Katherine, you could go first onthis one.

I am a mood reader, so it's a yay.
But also, it depends on what I'mfeeling.
I don't love books with aromantic plot, generally
speaking, that don't have otherplot elements going on.
Or else I just get really bored.
I feel like I'm watching, Idon't know, something like The

(16:03):
Notebook and no shame on, onthat- at all.
I just, I get really bored.
So Bored.
Even on the darker side,everybody was reading 50 Shades
for the kink, but there's 365,as well, which, I tried, and I
absolutely- there wasn'tanything going on.

(16:24):
I just couldn't, I couldn't doit.
So I'm not opposed to romantasyby any stretch, but there's
gotta be other elements thatpull me in, that keep me there.
An amazing world build, reallygreat other character
relationships, mentor and friendrelationships.
Otherwise if they're just fullyabsorbed in each other, like

(16:46):
complete obsession and that isit, that's all the book is
about- I'm probably gonna dipand DNF.

Zinzi Bree (16:53):
So your romantasy has to have, if the characters
are together there's something,some subplot happening in the
background that is continuingthe tension for you that is
driving the, oh, I'm gonna keepturning the page.
'Cause I need to know how thatother thing gets resolved, now
that these characters are kindof dealing with their feelings.
Is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah, I can get kind of bored of the
feelings feelings, feelings,feelings, feelings.
Not saying that I don't have mymoments in which I enjoy that,
to be fair.
But if there other aren't otherthings going on, like regular
life stuff or some otherimportant tension, then it feels
unrelatable and unrealistic.
It doesn't drive that tensionfor me as much.

Zinzi Bree (17:34):
What about for you Sage?
Romantasy- yay or nay?

Sage (17:39):
So definitely a little bit is my mood for sure.
What I am ready to delve into interms of complexity.
But, I read fantasy for themagic, and for the world
building, and for the escapism.
And while romance is a differentform of escapism generally, if

(18:00):
that's what I want?
I'm more likely to read ahistorical fiction romance or
something along those lines if Ireally just want the romance
fix.
But, I love fantasy so much andscience fiction, but fantasy is
my number one chosen genrebecause I love the magic
elements.
So if the magic feels like it'sjust slapped on to support the

(18:20):
romance, I'm not as engaged byit.
And, I honestly feel like...
I don't have a problem withspice levels.
I can read extensive sex scenesand that's all fine, but
sometimes I feel like it's awaste of the page.
It could be some really coolfantasy thing happening right
now.
Really cool magical element.
A portal to another, you know,dimension or area of the world.

(18:43):
And, instead we just have likeerections and detailed
descriptions of muscles andwhatnot.
And I'm like, that's cool.
I guess I prefer in that kind ofscenario, I prefer the slow
burn.
The excitement leading up to thesex scenes is more appealing to
me than the actual pages.
It depends on how many pages itgoes on and on for.
Also, and how many times theyhave sex in the book.

(19:06):
To where I'm like, okay, that isnot what I'm here for.
I am here for some cool dragonscoming in or sword fight or
whatever.
So I read.
A vampire romance recently wherethere were more mentions of the
love interest who was a vampire.
There were more mentions of hiserection than his fangs.

(19:27):
I'm pretty sure we had like 20mentions.
He was always stalking aroundnaked with this huge erection.
And I don't think we actuallyhad a mention of him having
fangs.
We knew he was a vampire allalong- until the end of the
book.
And, I don't even think he bitanybody ever.
So, like-

That's a shame.

Sage (19:45):
To me, if you're having a vampire- I, right?
If you're having vampireromance, like I think that
there's biting during the sex.
So anyway, that's like a wholeother conversation.
But, the fact that it was likeall of this?
This is just a very explicit.
romance.
The vampire thing doesn't evenneed to be in this situation.

(20:05):
So I then read, a totallydifferent vampire romance called
Bride by Ali Hazelwood.
And, that one was great.
It has romance in it.
It has sex scenes in it, butit's so much more about the
complexity of the world of- it'svampire/werewolf and all the
politics and all of that.
And I'm there for that.
Like, bring in the politics,bring in the reasons they can't
be together that actually feellike real reasons as opposed to

(20:28):
just, you know, oh, he's in theother room and I can't, we can't
be together.
That's enough of a reason tomake it like a plot.
Right?
I also really love there to beromance in the books, but I
prefer it as a subplot.
So I'm there for romantasy ifit's really well done.
I enjoyed Fourth Wing.
I enjoyed ACOTAR.

(20:51):
You know, but it has to be likeenough cool fantasy build
elements.

Zinzi Bree (20:57):
Mm-hmm.
I would say I do enjoyromantasy.
I don't think I'm a mood reader.
I pick books up for veryspecific reasons.
Generally it's because I'mtrying to find my next Dragon
fix.
I very much enjoyed Fourth Wing,much more for the dragons than
for the romance.

(21:21):
That's fun.
It is very fun.
The spice in that.
Vampires are not, or werewolvesare not my favorites Monster
Romance reads.
But, I have read, oh gosh it'sEvie something, Crimson Skies.
It's a duology.
But it's a dragon shifterromantasy, where the dragons are

(21:42):
aliens technically, but alienseven too, like this other planet
that they're on, with all thepeople that live there are elves
I think, that have been

Sage (21:53):
Wow.

Zinzi Bree (21:54):
by these alien dragon magic.
But it was really fun.
It was a fun ride.
I enjoyed those books.

Sage (22:01):
That feels like that's enough of the magic element,
right?
Like you're like you enjoyed itfor the cool world building and
the dragons is what it soundslike.

Zinzi Bree (22:12):
Okay.
So yes, I enjoyed it for thecool world building and the
Dragons.
I do have complaints, however,this is a series that they have
knotting as part of their matingrituals.
Knotting with a K-N-O-T-T-I-N-G.
I don't like, I don't understandthe, this'll be, this'll end up

(22:34):
in one of the other podcasts,but like, I do not understand
the desire to have anotherperson's parts, in another
character's parts, and them likeballoon up so that they're stuck
in there and can't come out.
That just sounds awful and likethe worst.
So knotting will be a topic foranother- maybe I'll have to read

(22:55):
other books that describe itbetter than this particular one.
But, also part of the setup inthat is very similar to ACOTAR
in that the main character endsup a different dragon at first,
and it is a sibling of the*spoilers* one she was meant for
who is-

Sage (23:13):
Mmhmm sibling.

Zinzi Bree (23:15):
Stuck with in the second book.
There's five, five, there we go.
Five Dragon Brothers.
Dragon Alien Brothers, also it'sromantasy but they're aliens.
So does that make it sci-fi?
Does that, like what, what doyou even call it?
It is romantasy because it's allmade up.
I clearly enjoyed this oneenough to talk it.

(23:35):
It was memorable and not in ahate it way.
I have other books that I willpassionately talk about.
I am frustrated that I was letdown.
Another dragon book that I readrecently, that I will not name.
The only redeeming factor wasthat it had good banter.
I made it through halfway of thebook because there was good
banter, but I'm so mad and IDNF'd it because there was so

(24:00):
much the author could have donewith the world-building that she
just left on the table anddidn't, didn't flesh out, didn't
go into, didn't make relevant.
Some of it was just straight uprandom and it pissed me off.
Which is why it got DNF'd.
I like dragons.
I wanted more dragons.
There were dragons that weresupposed to be in this book, and

(24:20):
then we basically never atleast, 64% of the way through
that I listened to, we didn'tget to the dragons.
So, because I believe thiswriter has potential, the second
book to this series is comingout and I'm just gonna skip the
first one and start it with thesecond one where the main
character has her dragons andsee if that's changed some
things.
If that's expanded theworld-building.
Okay.

(24:40):
Stepping off my soapbox end ofrant.

Sage (24:43):
Did you feel like, those sex scenes took up space where
it could have been worldbuilding?
Or it just was more that itdidn't go as deep as into the
world building as you wanted.

Zinzi Bree (24:54):
The one spicy scene that I got to as of halfway
through the book, I didn't feellike it was a waste of space,
but I did consider it completelyunrealistic because the plot
setup was- they were in abrothel trying to get an
assassin to attack them bymaking themselves make out and
look like they're vulnerable...

Sage (25:16):
Got it.
That says a lot.

Zinzi Bree (25:19):
Yeah.
I would have rather the scenariowhere they were like, we're
gonna go find a place to beprivate.
Go attempt to do that and beinterrupted by an assassin.
That would've been mypreference, than trying to do
this as a trap, because- howidiotic is this assassin to not
think that there's gonna beguards around to catch them?

(25:40):
Yeah, sorry.
There's potential.
It just wasn't in this firstbook.

Fair?

Zinzi Bree (25:46):
I'll give the second a shot and we'll see.
I'll report back.

Yes, please do.
I had a thought.
Sometimes there's not enoughromance either.
Or somebody calls something aromantasy, but it just doesn't
feel like the romance is fleshedout enough to be very
believable.
And in this one, I really loved90% of everything with this book
The Spellshop, I could have useda little bit more romance.

(26:11):
And that's not a negative on howit was written or anything like
that.
I thought it was reallyexcellent.
But I wanted just a little bitmore build to the depth of the
relationship between thecharacters.
For me personally, like I walkedaway thinking that was so good,
I just want a little bit more tofeel fully satisfied.
So sometimes that's the case aswell.

(26:32):
But, I definitely do recommendthat book.
It's very sweet.
It's very good.
It's very well done.
However, for me, sometimes thebalance is just a little bit
off.

Zinzi Bree (26:41):
That comes down to personal preference, though, as
a reader.

True.

Zinzi Bree (26:44):
you can't, as a writer, you can't please
everybody.
Like,

No.

Zinzi Bree (26:48):
Man, this makes me giggle and this makes me kick my
feet and I love this andsomebody else is gonna be like,
I couldn't believe it.
It was unbelievable.
That is not my experience of areal person, and I just couldn't
get into the guy.
There's gonna be those kind ofresponses no matter what you do.

Yeah.
So if somebody was listening tothe first half of what I said
and they're like, oh, well ifthere's romance, she needs plot
to go with it.
And The Spellshop does a greatjob of having good, decent plot,
good characters that are verylovable.
And then they write this perfectbook for me based on that.
And then I walk away, go like,oh, but it wasn't enough at the
opposite way.
Like, how so hard to be awriter?

(27:27):
Guys, you can't please anybodyall the time.

Zinzi Bree (27:29):
All right.
Moving on to, we've allanswered, we had a, maybe
sometimes from Katherine.
A must have good plot from Sageand a, eh, no, I do enjoy the
romance, the romantasy fromZinzi.
Moving on to is romance stillmaligned?
Is it, do you think it's takenseriously now that books like

(27:52):
ACOTAR and Fourth Wing havebecome such big money makers and
movers in the book industry?
Or are we still having theconversations where it's like,
yeah, I'm a reader.
Don't ask me what I read.

Sage (28:06):
I think it's still evolving.
When I was a kid, I remember myfirst experience with a romance
novel was going to my friend'shouse and her mom having stacks
of Harlequin novels in thecloset, like high up on a shelf.
She clearly loved them, readthem all the time, but they were
not out on the bookshelf.
And yet her kid knew where theywere.
So we got some down and readthem, and that was my first

(28:27):
experience with a romance novel.
But they were hidden away.
Right.
And I think that like myromantasy novels are on the
shelf alongside the otherfantasy novels that I have and
the science fiction novels andall the other books that I have,
they're up there on the shelfand I'm not embarrassed to admit

(28:49):
that I read them, although Ialways call ACOTAR my guilty
pleasure.
So for me, it's still anevolving thing and I'm less
likely to gush on and on about aromantasy that I've read, that I
enjoyed unless I know the personI'm talking to also reads in
that genre.
I feel like fantasy in generalhas always been a little bit of

(29:11):
like fantasy and sciencefiction.
Were always maligned also in, adifferent way than romance, but
not taken as seriously.
People say, oh, you read fantasyand science fiction, you're not
a serious reader or you're not aserious person.
So to me, the fact that it'slike I love fantasy and now I'm
reading fantasy romance but Idon't have shame around it.
So I think that there is amovement away from feeling

(29:34):
embarrassed and there's amovement of like, yes, this is a
thing that we can enjoy andthere's nothing wrong with it.

Zinzi Bree (29:39):
I could have The Spellshop on my shelves and hype
it up to pretty much anybody whowalked in and was like, oh,
that's a pretty cover.
And I will then talk your earoff.
If someone looks at this cover,if they don't say anything to
That Time I Got Drunk And SavedA Demon.
Which is very much the romancecovers of olds, but fantasy

(30:03):
style, it's fantastic.
But, I still run in enoughcircles where that would feel
like, maybe turn that bookaround when these friends are
coming over.
It's a guilty pleasure.
It's great, it's enjoyable.
But, unless someone else bringsup a topic...
You gotta ask for it.
I'm not gonna give it to you.
I did want to point out.

(30:24):
Sage, when someone asks her whatshe reads, she says speculative
fiction.

Sage (30:29):
So, I always hated it that I would go into the bookstore
and there would be like fiction,and then there would be mystery,
and then there would be fantasyscience fiction.
It's great all the books are inone place, but I always felt
like it was being- that thegenre was looked down upon in a
way that it wasn't as serious asfiction or wasn't as worthy as

(30:50):
fiction.
And, when I heard the termspeculative fiction, I was like,
YES.
I'm totally on board with that.
Because first of all, itincorporates everything from
fantasy and science fiction aswell as horror and the genres
kind of mix together more andmore, it kind of incorporates
all of that.
But, I do know that when I'm ina conversation, especially with
somebody that I don'tnecessarily know very well, and

(31:12):
I'm trying to make a goodimpression, particularly when
we're talking about what I'mwriting, I will say that I write
speculative fiction- and I mightsay even that I read, and I know
it's because I feel like itmakes me sound more intelligent
or that what I'm working on ismore serious.
And, I don't always do it,because if I know the person
well, then we can talk more indepth about the books that

(31:33):
inspire me and what myinfluences are and whatnot.
But, when I'm in conversationwith somebody that maybe is a
lawyer or something like that,and they're like, what do you
do?
And I'm like, well, I write.
I'm not gonna say I writeromantasy or I write fantasy.
I say, I write speculativefiction, or I write fiction, and
then I get more into it.
I also just like how the wordsounds, so there's that too.

(31:54):
I think we're still at a pointwhere both romance and fantasy
are not as accepted as seriousor worthy

Zinzi Bree (32:06):
Mm-hmm.

Sage (32:06):
they could be.

Zinzi Bree (32:07):
I find it really interesting being on being on
Bookstagram, being on YouTube inthe book area, and being on
BookTok where it feels like onTikTok, the predominant people
that I'm seeing that talk aboutromantasy are women like us.
Very rarely is it couples.

(32:28):
A lot of them binge on romantasybooks and there's their, here's
my top five, or here's myromantasy ones that I hated or
whatever.
But, I'll get over to YouTube.
And on YouTube I've got fantasysnobs who, they're not reading
the romantasies they're readinghigh fantasy and epic fantasy

(32:51):
and everything is war, anddeath, and grim.
I'm sorry, you're not making itsuper attractive to me to wanna
read.
I don't wanna read about war.
My eyes glaze over sometimes ifit's not magical politics.
I'm a fast forward a little bitthrough that section, or hope
that I'm listening to it as, asan audio book sped up so I can

(33:12):
just through that part.
And even though I have some ofthose books on my shelves,
they're still on my TBR.
If there isn't a groundingrelationship.
To get me through that story,I'm gonna struggle reading it.
Not because it isn't goodwriting, I'm sure it's good
writing.
I'm just intimidated.

Sage (33:34):
What are you intimidated by?

Zinzi Bree (33:38):
Sorry.
The thickness, I'm intimidatedby the thickness.
The,

Sage (33:43):
That's fair.

Zinzi Bree (33:44):
I'm also intimidated by the, I don't have a great
memory.
So like, if there's a lot ofcharacters that are introduced,
if it's a lot of point of viewsbouncing around, if it's there's
multiple kingdoms and I have toremember the government
structure of multiple differentplaces, that gets difficult for
me.
That's just how my brain works.
That's not what I attach to andremember.

(34:05):
If your writing is done wellenough whereyou've got a
representative character of thatgovernment system, or those
politics, or that plot pointeven.
This is your character that's,that's central to them.
That's a much easier read forme.
Then that's something that I canget into and engage.

(34:25):
Because I am very characterfocused and emotionally driven
in story.
I've had a couple of books whereI'd read and the voice of the
writer is awesome.
This is really interestingmagic, and this is really
interesting politics, but therewasn't a character that I
connected with and so I didn'tget very far.

Sage (34:48):
I really enjoy young adult fantasy for exactly that reason,
because a lot of young adultbooks, the emotions are
heightened and the emotionalconnection between characters as
everyone's like going throughit, right?
And, so that element, and thenthe fantasy is usually pretty
strong, but it's also not as indepth as some of the epic high

(35:09):
fantasy.
But you will have politics orintrigue, but when it's well
done, it's written in a way thatit's easier to keep up with.
And then also, there's romance,but there's not a lot of time
spent on the page with explicitsex scenes.
So then that fulfills for mepersonally, the need for it to
be a little more plot orcharacter driven.
So that's one of the reasons Ilove young adult fantasy is

(35:31):
because it brings the besttogether and then they're a
little bit short also.
So it's not like these, youdon't have to, the, it's a
little bit narrower in it'sgirth.

Well done.
I have a confession.
I can't get through Lord of theRings, the books, I struggle
with those.
I did read The Hobbit.
I tried over the years.
And I always got bored andtapped out midway.
This is one of those books whereI think I would've loved to have

(36:03):
some other tension, like theromantic tension, keeping me in
there.
However, if that were the case,it would not be the books that
they are today.
Industry would not be what itis.
that said, that's another onewhere it's like super intense.
The world build is almostself-aggrandizing for the author
and it's well done and it'smassively culturally

(36:26):
influential, but there's noromance.
And as a movie, loved them.
Still love them- as a book.
I try every once in a while andI just, can't get through.
I get bored.

Sage (36:41):
When I reread the Lord of the Rings recently, I noticed
how, and I had a hard timegetting through it the first
time I read it also, like I gaveup'cause I felt like it was
going on and on, and then Irealized that there's like a ton
of appendixes and so I think Iwas almost done, but I was just
like, this is dragging onforever.
There's still half a book left.

(37:01):
I reread it to my kids recentlyand the way that the plot is
written from the differentcharacter's perspectives.
It's like you read all of whathappens to one group of
characters and then you go backin time and read what's
happening to another group ofcharacters at the same time.
I feel like if it was writtennow and it was modern, even if

(37:23):
there wasn't a romance element,the pacing would be so different
and that would help me getthrough it.
'Cause I love those books.
I love everything it's done forthe genre, but I feel like the
amount of descriptions ofmountains that you never even
visit is a little excessive.
And that if we cut inner, youknow, inner cut between scenes,

(37:45):
especially in that second book,like it could be, easier to get
through.
Books are written differentlynow than they used to be, right?
Like,

Zinzi Bree (37:53):
Mm-hmm.

Sage (37:53):
The pacing and the stylistic elements are a lot
different.
So maybe for you it's notnecessarily the romance?

Yeah, maybe it is more of the pacing
and the tension, as opposed towhether there is or isn't
romance in the book.
That's a really excellent point.

Sage (38:11):
However, I have heard people talk about like how
amazing the romance industry isas a business because it's this
industry that's pretty driven bywomen and extremely financially
successful.
And it is the biggest sellinggenre in books.
And it's growing exponentially.

(38:33):
I think there should be lessshame placed on that genre and
on fantasy and science fictionas well.

Katherine Suzette | Boo (38:40):
Agreed.
Yeah.
The fact that I read fantasy isalmost as side-eye inducing as
the fact that, I like and readromance.
People have even commented,"Ifeel like you don't live in
reality and like, why don't youwant books based on real
things?" And,"I'm just a littlebit worried about the fact that
you, you live in this completealternate reality in your brain

(39:02):
with the dragons and the magicand the things like that.
But, we don't have that in reallife." Escapism does not demand
reality.
But, I do demand relatability.

Zinzi Bree (39:14):
I'd wanna ask those people, do you go on vacation?

I hope

Sage (39:18):
Fantasy

Zinzi Bree (39:19):
it's a vacation for my brain

yes.

Zinzi Bree (39:23):
financially much more affordable than a physical
vacation to the beach, to themountains, to wherever you wanna
go.
And, as a woman with a heavymental load of my mental
responsibilities, like my brainneeds a vacation more often than
my body does.

Sage (39:42):
Yeah.
And, you can also have thethrill of excitement without
having to live through it,right?
You don't have to go skydivingin order to get that thrill from
what it feels like to be on adragon's back flying through the
sky.
I would also argue that there'smore to fantasy than escapism.
That's definitely an element,but I also think similarly to

(40:04):
dystopian that you can exploreelements of society, elements of
culture, elements ofrelationships, from a place
where you can reflect on howsomething that's happening in a
fantasy novel is similar tosomething that's either happened
historically or is currentlyhappening at this point- you can

(40:25):
have a discussion about itwithout taking sides on a real
world issue.
You can talk about things likeracism, sexism, or classism, but
base it in this fantasy worldwhere you can almost make people
think maybe something differentthan they would normally think
because it's not the world thatthey're living in.
So I think that there is roomoutside of the escapism, which

(40:47):
is amazing, but there's alsoroom to have like a deeper
thought process around some ofthe things that we take for
granted in our society.

I was recently doing a manuscript
evaluation for a sci-fi book,one of the things that kept
lodging in my brain.
I was trying to come up with away to explain one of my points.
So I kept asking the peoplearound me, why they read sci-fi
as opposed to fantasy and why ingeneral from society it has a

(41:18):
less shameful rap maybe thanfantasy has.
And there's something about itbeing like more grounded in the
realm of our reality'spossibility.
I felt that was reallyinteresting because much like
Sage, I like a filter between meand a lot of these concepts.
And for them, they needed thisrealm of possibility that,

(41:43):
brought, I don't know, made itseem relatable to them somehow.
And for me, that's exactly theopposite.
So interesting.

Sage (41:52):
That is interesting.
I'm a huge- okay.
Here's something that I'm gonnaadmit but, I'm a huge Star Trek
fan.
I always have been, NextGeneration is my number one
choice for Star Trek and I loveit so much.
And one of the things I love iswell, there's a lot of things I
love about it, and I've heard itcalled competency porn before,
which just stuck with, I thinklike they're just so good at

(42:14):
what they do and they work sowell together as a team and all
of these things.
I know I really like that aspectof it.
But for me, the science fictionpiece a lot of times is, What
does it mean to be human?
And, if you don't have dragonsand you don't have magic, and it
is placing humanity in thisother reality.
But, I like that you can takehumanity and put it on other

(42:36):
planets and what does it mean tobe a human in this kind of
environment?
But, I always think of magic asbeing science we haven't
discovered yet, so.

Zinzi Bree (42:47):
I would agree with that.
So to bring this back around toour romance, some-mance and
no-mance- the books that theplot is discovering what it
means to be human, discoveringwhat it means to be kind, plots
of discovery that aren't aboutdiscovering romance.
Is a great potential plot for ano-mance.
I think that's on my TBR.

(43:10):
Monk and Robot, which is a cozy.
Monk and Robot is the name ofthe series.
The first one is Psalm of theWild Built.

Monk and Robot, because that's a
super intriguing title.
Very unusual.

Zinzi Bree (43:25):
I started it.
I have it as an audiobook.
It's very short though, so, I'llget through it quick.
But, I had to pause because I'mtrying to work on my own writing
and I can't listen to otherpeople's stuff or read other
people's stuff when I amworking, or it influences my
voice.

I can't stop reading other
people's stuff, but I willswitch genres.

Zinzi Bree (43:43):
Nope.
I can watch TV shows or domovies but I can't read, I can't
do people's words otherwise, itinfluences my things.
Should

we do our book recommendations?

Zinzi Bree (43:54):
Yes.
I'm going to go ahead and jumpinto mine, which is this~ I love
this.
It is such a warm hug.
It is a cup of hot chocolate,even though it takes place on an
island, which is the childhoodhome of the main character.
There's a sentient plantcompanion.

(44:16):
There's stolen library booksthat must be kept safe.
There's a cinnamon roll of alove interest.
I consider it clean fantasybecause there are no spicy
scenes and just very sweet allaround.
So, The Spellshop by Sarah BethDurst.
Is Zinzi's recommended read.
But, I have a second one becauseif you do want spice and you

(44:40):
want to laugh out loud.
And you want a rom-com D&D gamegone wrong- this is the read for
you.
It has dragons, it has, magic,it has hilarity.
And, and some spicy spice.
That Time I Got Drunk And SavedA Demon by Kimberly Lemming.

(45:00):
Very fun.
And this one is part of aseries, the Mead Mishaps series.
The spell shop.
There's another book that is,something to do with the
Greenhouse.
There's the second one of this,that comes out very soon, that
I'm excited about.
All right.
That was me.
Somebody else go.

Okay, I'll do, no-mance one.
This one is Jonathan Strange andMr.
Norrell.
I think of it because you weretalking about the discovery
being a part of so much fantasy,and this is all about discovery.
There's a little bit offrenemies in there.
But it is not romance.
I think it's an excellent book.
I think it's an excellent world.

(45:39):
And then, if I get to recommenda second one because you started
it Zinzi, I'm gonna recommendthe Magical Midlife Dating
Series.
I think that's really cute.
I know that that's like bookfive, but if you look that one
up, you'll see it's by K.F.
Breene.
You can grab the first one.
Highly recommend.
Definite spice, eventually.

Zinzi Bree (45:57):
There's some spicy stuff even in the second one.
Not, not in a good way, but in afunny way.

The visuals on that too.
The author did it so well.
Like, you can't not see it inyour brain.
The way that they wrote it.
Yeah, it's funny.
It's so fantastic.
It's so lighthearted.
It's everything you could wantin a fantasy romance that is
super quirky and has a characterwho is 40 or at 40, something
like that.

Zinzi Bree (46:22):
A sentient house.
It has a creepy doll army.

Yes, yes.
And everybody's a shifter.

Sage (46:30):
Wow.
Okay.
Well, I haven't read thatseries, but based on that
recommendation, I am moving itup my TBR.

Do it.

Zinzi Bree (46:37):
Yes.

Sage (46:37):
My recommendation is this one Maggie Stiffvater's, The
Raven Boys.
This is the first book in, Ithink it's a four part the Raven
Cycle, and it's contemporaryyoung adult fantasy.
I love contemporary fantasybecause the idea that magic
could be real in our world islike so appealing to me.

(46:58):
I'm gonna read the very openingline of this one.
This is a some-mance.
"Blue Sargent had forgotten howmany times she'd been told that
she would kill her true love."So the first line is about true
love, but it's also aboutkilling her true love.
And, it leads into a whole otherplot element where the romance
is integral to the plot, butit's not the primary aspect of

(47:20):
the plot.
And, a lot of it has to do with,the main character Blue, and her
relationship with these prepschool boys, and their quest to
find a hidden grave.
It's beautifully written the waythat the author jumps between
character perspectives and howeach character thinks about

(47:41):
their friends really builds outthese beautiful, very fleshed
out characters.
And there's a lot of reallyinteresting, different magic in
it.
It's not like shifters orwhatever.
It's like very unique elementsof magic.
Huge fan.
Highly recommend.

I started on the sequel series
without realizing I had to haveread the Raven Boys series
first, and it was so confusing,but it was incredibly
compelling.
I got halfway through the bookbefore I realized there was a
whole series before it.
I just got the first book theRaven Boys rented.
So by the time we meet next, Iwill have read that one too.
Per your rec.

Sage (48:17):
Awesome.

Zinzi Bree (48:18):
I currently have the Cruel Prince on Sage's
recommendation to startlistening to.
So I have rec'd the romanceshere, and Sage has got the
some-mance, and Katherine tookour no-mance.
Fantastic.
Katherine, can you tell us whereyou can find us on social media?

You can find us on the social
platforms at Book Dragon BanterPod.

Zinzi Bree (48:39):
Except for Insta, because somebody else had that.
So on Insta, we are just BookDragon Banter.

Yeah, but you can find us.
You can find us from our linksdown below, or on our website.
Just type in our name and comelisten to more of these chats.
We would love to have you.

Zinzi Bree (48:56):
This is gonna be so quick, I promise.
Listeners, I need a no-mancefantasy with a female lead.
I would love this.
I want this recommendation, Iwant a no romance, but with a
found family aspect and the maincharacter is female.
Preferably not a young adult.

(49:16):
I would love an adult.
I want that story.
Send me your recommendations.
All right.
Sorry.
Sage our book club read.

Sage (49:25):
Our first book club read is The Last Dragon of the East
by Katrina Kwan.
And, we will be reading anddelving into this book in an
upcoming episode very soon.
So make sure that you find yourcopy and start reading now so
that you can follow along withus without worrying about any

(49:45):
spoilers.

Zinzi Bree (49:47):
Also, to be clear, we are not affiliated.
That is the book I picked itbecause the cover was beautiful.
And I am very excited about themythology of the red thread of
fate.
We are a baby podcast.
Please subscribe.
Please, please, please, pleaserate and review.
And if you like what you heard,you can help us by sharing.
Our next episode coming outafter the book club episode is,

(50:10):
Did Marketing Make You Read It?

Katherine Suzette | B (50:12):
Probably.

Zinzi Bree (50:14):
So for those who stick around after the outro
music, there will be bloopers.
Last but not least, thank you somuch for tuning in.
Thank you so much for lending usyour ears and listening to us
ramble, and rant, and share ourlove for books.
Thank you so much.
This was Book Dragon Banter andwe will see you next time.

Sage (50:32):
See you next time.
Can I really quick, are youstill recording?

Zinzi Bree (50:41):
Yes.
I will tell you when I'm notrecording.
So just like anything else you

Sage (50:43):
Okay.

Zinzi Bree (50:44):
in here, now's the time.

Sage (50:46):
Well, I just wanted to do my explicit thing one more time.
This is an explicit podcast andwe are not gonna talk super
dirty, but we will cover adultbooks and.
Get into some spicy stuff fromtime to time.
So if you are not comfortablereading ya books or above, or
you have listeners around thatare not comfortable with that,

(51:09):
then you should probably shit, Idid it wrong again.

Zinzi Bree (51:15):
We'll put that one in the, in the bloopers.

Yes.

Zinzi Bree (51:19):
There will be bloopers.

Yes.

Zinzi Bree (51:22):
and some of them, some of them might just be me
and Katherine being like, howcan we say this with a, say this
with our A SMR voice.

was just thinking that.

Zinzi Bree (51:30):
the softest possible.
Welcome to a book, dragonBanter.

Yes.
Well, and with Sage being likewe don't talk dirty, I almost
replied to talked over.
I was like, I wanna talk dirty.
What if I wanna talk Dirty

Sage (51:42):
I wish you had.
We can totally do an episodewhere we just talk dirty the
whole time in our very lovelyvoices.
That will be for subscribersonly.

Katherine Suzette | (51:56):
Subscribers only A SMR where we all use our
dirty voice.

Sage (52:00):
maybe we will do a really lovely breakdown of a very dirty
book where we read extendedpassages in our lovely voices

Nice.
I just read one for which thatmight actually work.

Zinzi Bree (52:15):
Sorry, the cat sounds Just don't touch me.

Your dog whining for attention as s
just cat eating her planet.
Yes.
Love them.

Sage (52:29):
So I am sorry I have to pee so bad.
Can you gimme a one minute?
I One minute.

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Ep.2 Romance, Some-mance, or No-mance?

On Purpose with Jay Shetty