July 9, 2025 • 13 mins
Enjoy this AI generated entertaining discussion of the book- Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance. Learn the essence of the book and take away 10 key lessons. Consider purchasing the book: https://g.co/kgs/8Uqhauu
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What truly drives success in life? I mean, is it
(00:03):
really just some innatebrilliance, you know, a special
gift only a few people get? Wehear it all the time. Right?
Some people just have it.
But what if that's not quite thefull picture? Today we're doing
a deep dive into somethingpretty fascinating. It's the
core ideas from AngelaDuckworth's work, GRIT. The
power of passion andperseverance. And our mission
really is to give you a kind ofshortcut to understanding the
(00:25):
main message, uncover somesurprising bits and maybe offer
some practical things you canuse.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, absolutely. At its heart, this whole idea
argues that what we actuallyachieve in life might depend
less on, you know, naturaltalent and way more on passion
and perseverance. That's whatshe calls grit. Imagine, like,
telling a friend about it. It'sthis relentless focus on long
term goals.
It's about staying interested,practicing the right way,
finding purpose, and, holding onto hope. Even when it gets
(00:52):
really hard, it kinda pulls backthe curtain on genius, showing
it's often just lots and lots ofordinary effort day after day.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Okay. Let's really unpack this then. Duckworth's
own story is kind of perfecthere. She mentions her dad used
to tell her she was no genius.Casual.
Like at dinner. But then, yearslater, she wins the MacArthur
Fellowship the Genius Awardbasically for researching
exactly this topic. You know,how achievement often comes more
from that passion andperseverance than just raw
(01:21):
talent.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Mhmm.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And this is where it gets really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, totally. And you see it play out dramatically in
places like West Point. Theyhave this super intense seven
week training called BeastBarracks.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah. And, like, one in five cadets actually drops
out. But the surprising thing,it wasn't the usual stuff, SAT
scores, high school grades,leadership sports that predicted
who'd stick
Speaker 1 (01:40):
it Really? Not those things?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Nope. It was grit. Her research found that the,
whole candidate score, whichlumps all that traditional stuff
together, was basicallyidentical for those who stayed
and those who left, and theyfound the same pattern with
salespeople too. Grit predictedwho stayed in that tough job
more than other personalitytraits. Think about dealing with
rejection every day.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Wow. So, why are we so hung up on talent then?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
That's a great question. The author suggests
society, even big influentialplaces like McKinsey back in the
day, kinda operate with a talentmindset. You know, hiring and
promoting based on who seems themost brilliant. The Enron
collapse is even mentioned asmaybe a cautionary tale where
that extreme focus on talentmight have accidentally
(02:25):
encouraged some bad behaviorsand short term thinking.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Right. That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
And think about Scott Barry Kaufman. He was told his
IQ scores as a kid meant hecouldn't be in gifted programs.
Yet, he went on to get degreesfrom Carnegie Mellon, Cambridge,
and Yale. Just pure effort anddetermination.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So if talent isn't everything, what is? What's the
alternative?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, she gives these two simple but kinda profound
equations. First, talent timeseffort equals skill.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Second, skill times effort equals achievement.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So effort is in there twice.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Exactly. That's the key takeaway. Effort builds the
skill, and effort makes theskill productive. She uses
examples like the Potter WarrenMackenzie saying, the first
10,000 pots are difficult. OrJohn Irving, the writer
admitting he wasn't a natural,just rewrote constantly.
Even Will Smith credits hissuccess to a ridiculous,
sickening work ethic, not justtalent.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Okay. So grit is clearly crucial. But how do we
actually grow it? Can it begrown?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes. Definitely. The idea is that it develops through
four key psychological things.Interest, practice, purpose, and
hope. And they seem to developin a kind of order, one building
on the next.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Alright. First up, interest. We always hear follow
your passion. Right? Especiallyin graduation speeches.
But Duckworth argues it'srarely, like, love at first
sight. She mentions RowdyGaines, the Olympic swimmer. He
tried loads of sports beforeswimming clicked.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. Or chef Mark Vetri starting out washing
dishes. He got drawn into thekitchen atmosphere first, not
necessarily the cooking itselfinitially.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
That's interesting. So passion isn't just found,
it's developed.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Exactly. It seems to be more of a progression. First
discovery, then development, andthen this lifetime of deepening.
Often we don't really know whatwe want to do until maybe middle
school or even later. Andinterests can definitely be
nurtured, like Will Shortz's momencouraging encouraging his
puzzle making or Jeff Bezos'smom supporting his mechanical
tinkering from a young age.
(04:21):
Giving kids autonomy to exploreseems key.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Okay. So you find an interest, then comes practice.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
But not just any practice.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right. Not just logging hours. It has to be
deliberate practice.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
She jokes about her own jogging thousands of hours,
but she didn't get fasterbecause she wasn't trying to get
faster. Mhmm. No specific goals.No feedback.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Exactly. It's like Anders Ericsson's research on
expert shows. They practicedifferently. They set specific
stretch goals, targetingweaknesses. They focus
completely.
They seek out immediate usefulfeedback.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And repeat, reflect, refine.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yes. All of that. It can be tiring, strenuous even,
but that hard work is what leadsto those moments of flow. Like
Katie Ladecky describing herworld record swim as feeling
easy because the intensepractice made it automatic.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So the trick is making that deliberate practice
a habit.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Pretty much. Take the judgment out. Just embrace the
challenge of getting better bitby bit.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Then there's purpose. How does that fit in? Yeah. It's
more than just personalinterest. Right?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah. Purpose adds this whole other layer.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It's the idea that what you're doing contributes to
something beyond yourself, tothe well-being of others. Humans
seem wired for both immediatepleasure, hedonic happiness, and
this deeper sense of meaningeudemonic happiness. Happiness.
That meaning often comes fromconnecting with and helping
others.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So it's like a deeper motivation.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Exactly. People who see their work as a calling, who
feel like they're making theworld better somehow, they tend
to be much grittier and moresatisfied. Think of the parable
of the three bricklayers. Onesays he's laying bricks, another
says he's building a wall, thethird says he's building a
cathedral. Same job, differentpurpose.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Even a janitor or a subway engineer can see their
work as a calling if they focuson how they serve others.
Purpose can grow over time too,blending with your interests.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And the last pillar is hope. What does that mean in
this context? Not just wishfulthinking, I assume.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, definitely not. It's more like resilience. It's
the perseverance that kicks inwhen things get tough. Getting
back up after being knockeddown. It connects to Marty
Seligman's work on learnedhelplessness and importantly,
optimism.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Ah, optimism.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah. Optimists tend to explain setbacks as temporary
and specific. I failed this testbecause I didn't study this
topic enough. Pessimists oftensee them as permanent and
pervasive. I failed because I'mstupid and I'll fail everything.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
And that links to Carol Dweck's mindset idea.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Precisely. A growth mindset believing you can
improve your abilities witheffort feels that hope and
perseverance. A fixed mindsetbelieving talent is fixed makes
you give up easily. Sopracticing optimistic self talk,
focusing on what you can change,and asking for help are key
parts of cultivating this kindof hope.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Okay. So those are the internal building blocks.
But what about the outside? Howcan we help cultivate grit in
others or in our workplaces orfamilies?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Culture plays a huge role. The environment we're in
really shapes us.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Like with parenting.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Exactly. The author talks about wise parenting. It's
this combination of being reallysupportive and really demanding.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
So not authoritarian, but not permissive either. A
balance.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Right. Like Steve Young's dad, 's nicknamed Grit
for his toughness, but was alsoincredibly supportive when Steve
had separation anxiety. OrFrancesca Martinez's parents,
supportive but also had firmrules, modeled hard work.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Supportive and demanding.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And this style seems to foster emulation, not just
imitation. Kids don't just copythe behavior. They internalize
the values behind it becausethey feel loved and respected
and challenged.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And does that apply to teachers and mentors too?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Absolutely. Psychologically, wise teachers
do the same thing. Toby Litke,Shopify's founder, talks about
his mentor, Jurgen, who createdthis demanding but supportive
space for him to learnprogramming. Research by Ron
Ferguson shows teachers likethat demanding and supportive
boost student happiness, effort,and grades. Even a simple post
it note study showed that addingfeedback like, I have high
(08:15):
expectations and I know you canreach them, dramatically
increased how many studentsrevise their essays.
That belief matters.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
What about outside of school? Extracurriculars?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Huge. They're described as fantastic grit
training grounds.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Because kids get to do hard things that actually
interest them, usually whilehaving fun. That combo is rare.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
But do they build grit or just attract kids who
already have it?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Good question. Research suggests it's likely
both. Daniel Willingham foundthat follow through in
activities sticking withsomething for years, advancing
predicts later success. Harvardeven looks at this. So sustained
commitment seems to build grit.
It fits with the CorrespondencePrinciple. Our traits lead us to
situations that then reinforcethose traits. Learned
(09:03):
industriousness basically.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
But it also raises that issue about access, doesn't
it? The gap between kids who canafford these activities and
those who can't.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Definitely crucial point. Access and opportunity
matter hugely.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
And what about whole organizations or even countries?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah. Culture at scale. Pete Carroll with the
Seahawks intentionally built aculture of competition and
perseverance using specificlanguage, focusing on core
values. Jimmy Diamond atJPMorgan Chase talks about
instilling fortitude, makingsetbacks, learning
opportunities, not excuses.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And you mentioned the Finnish idea of Sisu.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Right. That national concept of inner strength and
perseverance. Being part of agroup, a team, a company, a
nation that values grit canpowerfully shape your own
identity and push you to live upto those standards.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Okay. Let's step back a bit. If we were discussing
this, say, in a book club, whatwould be the big highlights and
maybe some points for debate?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Great idea. Let's start with five really valuable
takeaways from this deep dive.One, that super simple but
powerful effort counts twiceformula, talent x effort,
insight up. Skill, skill xeffort, achievement. Just
reframes everything.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah. That really sticks with you.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Two, the clear roadmap for growing grit inside
out. Interest, practice,purpose, hope makes it feel
achievable. Three, understandingthe difference in connection
between deliberate practice, thehard work, and flow, the
effortless performance.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Right. Practice leads to flow.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Four, the wise parenting concept, supportive
and demanding. Such a practical,balanced approach. And five,
just how strongly cultureinfluences our grit. From family
to teams to nations, theenvironment matters.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Okay. Great points. Now for that balanced book club
perspective, what about somecritiques or limitations? Things
to maybe think a bit deeperabout.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Good call. Here are five some the author herself
points out.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Great.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
First, it's very focused on individual
psychology. It doesn't dive asdeep into external factors like
systemic barriers, lack ofopportunity, or just plain luck
that can definitely impactsomeone's path no matter how
gritty they are.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Like the extracurricular access issue.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Exactly. Second, the grit scale itself. It's useful,
but it's self reported, so itreflects how you see yourself,
which can have biases. Third,the extracurricular link. Strong
correlation, yes, but causationis tricky.
Does it build grit, select forgrit, or both? Probably both,
but it's not definitively provenit builds it. Fourth, grit isn't
(11:25):
the only important trait. Theauthor is clear. Character is
plural.
Self control, socialintelligence, curiosity, they
all matter too. Grit isn'teverything. And fifth, sometimes
quitting is the right call.Persistence isn't always good.
Duckworth admits dropping pianoand French let her focus
elsewhere.
Knowing when to quit a lowerlevel goal is also a skill.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
That's a really important nuance. Okay. So
boiling it all down, maybe giveus the top 10 key insights that
people can really connect toeveryday life.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Sure. 10 key takeaways. One, grit beats
talent often. It's passion plusperseverance. Your effort
matters more than you think.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Two, effort counts twice. Remember, it builds skill
and makes skill productive.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Three, interests develop. Don't just wait for
passion, actively explore andnurture things. Four, practice
smart, deliberate practice,stretch goals, focus, feedback.
That's how you truly improve.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Five, purpose feels grit. Connect your work to
helping others for deepermotivation. Six, hope is
learnable optimism. Viewsetbacks as temporary and
specific, not permanentfailures. Seven, growth mindset
is key.
Believe you can improve witheffort. Eight, wise parenting
works. Be supportive anddemanding.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Good advice.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Nine, extracurriculars grit training.
Sticking with hard, interestingthings builds resilience. 10,
culture shapes you. Surroundyourself with gritty people and
groups.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Fantastic summary. Now if someone really resonated
with his deep dive on grit,what's another book they might
like? If you like this, you'lllove that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh, definitely. Carol Dweck's mindset the new
psychology of success. Oh, yeah.It goes so much deeper into that
fixed versus growth mindsetidea, which is totally central
to the hope part of grit. Itreally reinforces how your
beliefs shape what you canachieve.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Perfect pairing. Okay. Here's a fun twist. We
like to do a high two to capturethe essence of today's deep
dive. Ready?
Hey. Sashions fire glows. Nice.Perseverance truly grows.
Success then bestows.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I like it, captures it well. So yeah, this deep dive
really shows grit isn't somemagic thing you're born with or
not, it's learnable. It's thatmix of passion and perseverance
you can build through focusedeffort and ideally in a
supportive environment.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Absolutely. So the final thought for you listening,
what's just one small step maybethis week you could take to
apply one of these ideas? Howcould you unleash just a little
bit more grit in your own life?
What truly drives success in life? I mean, is it
(00:03):
really just some innatebrilliance, you know, a special
gift only a few people get? Wehear it all the time. Right?
Some people just have it.
But what if that's not quite thefull picture? Today we're doing
a deep dive into somethingpretty fascinating. It's the
core ideas from AngelaDuckworth's work, GRIT. The
power of passion andperseverance. And our mission
really is to give you a kind ofshortcut to understanding the
(00:25):
main message, uncover somesurprising bits and maybe offer
some practical things you canuse.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, absolutely. At its heart, this whole idea
argues that what we actuallyachieve in life might depend
less on, you know, naturaltalent and way more on passion
and perseverance. That's whatshe calls grit. Imagine, like,
telling a friend about it. It'sthis relentless focus on long
term goals.
It's about staying interested,practicing the right way,
finding purpose, and, holding onto hope. Even when it gets
(00:52):
really hard, it kinda pulls backthe curtain on genius, showing
it's often just lots and lots ofordinary effort day after day.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Okay. Let's really unpack this then. Duckworth's
own story is kind of perfecthere. She mentions her dad used
to tell her she was no genius.Casual.
Like at dinner. But then, yearslater, she wins the MacArthur
Fellowship the Genius Awardbasically for researching
exactly this topic. You know,how achievement often comes more
from that passion andperseverance than just raw
(01:21):
talent.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Mhmm.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
And this is where it gets really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, totally. And you see it play out dramatically in
places like West Point. Theyhave this super intense seven
week training called BeastBarracks.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah. And, like, one in five cadets actually drops
out. But the surprising thing,it wasn't the usual stuff, SAT
scores, high school grades,leadership sports that predicted
who'd stick
Speaker 1 (01:40):
it Really? Not those things?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Nope. It was grit. Her research found that the,
whole candidate score, whichlumps all that traditional stuff
together, was basicallyidentical for those who stayed
and those who left, and theyfound the same pattern with
salespeople too. Grit predictedwho stayed in that tough job
more than other personalitytraits. Think about dealing with
rejection every day.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Wow. So, why are we so hung up on talent then?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
That's a great question. The author suggests
society, even big influentialplaces like McKinsey back in the
day, kinda operate with a talentmindset. You know, hiring and
promoting based on who seems themost brilliant. The Enron
collapse is even mentioned asmaybe a cautionary tale where
that extreme focus on talentmight have accidentally
(02:25):
encouraged some bad behaviorsand short term thinking.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Right. That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
And think about Scott Barry Kaufman. He was told his
IQ scores as a kid meant hecouldn't be in gifted programs.
Yet, he went on to get degreesfrom Carnegie Mellon, Cambridge,
and Yale. Just pure effort anddetermination.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So if talent isn't everything, what is? What's the
alternative?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, she gives these two simple but kinda profound
equations. First, talent timeseffort equals skill.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Second, skill times effort equals achievement.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
So effort is in there twice.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Exactly. That's the key takeaway. Effort builds the
skill, and effort makes theskill productive. She uses
examples like the Potter WarrenMackenzie saying, the first
10,000 pots are difficult. OrJohn Irving, the writer
admitting he wasn't a natural,just rewrote constantly.
Even Will Smith credits hissuccess to a ridiculous,
sickening work ethic, not justtalent.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Okay. So grit is clearly crucial. But how do we
actually grow it? Can it begrown?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yes. Definitely. The idea is that it develops through
four key psychological things.Interest, practice, purpose, and
hope. And they seem to developin a kind of order, one building
on the next.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Alright. First up, interest. We always hear follow
your passion. Right? Especiallyin graduation speeches.
But Duckworth argues it'srarely, like, love at first
sight. She mentions RowdyGaines, the Olympic swimmer. He
tried loads of sports beforeswimming clicked.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. Or chef Mark Vetri starting out washing
dishes. He got drawn into thekitchen atmosphere first, not
necessarily the cooking itselfinitially.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
That's interesting. So passion isn't just found,
it's developed.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Exactly. It seems to be more of a progression. First
discovery, then development, andthen this lifetime of deepening.
Often we don't really know whatwe want to do until maybe middle
school or even later. Andinterests can definitely be
nurtured, like Will Shortz's momencouraging encouraging his
puzzle making or Jeff Bezos'smom supporting his mechanical
tinkering from a young age.
(04:21):
Giving kids autonomy to exploreseems key.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Okay. So you find an interest, then comes practice.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
But not just any practice.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right. Not just logging hours. It has to be
deliberate practice.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
She jokes about her own jogging thousands of hours,
but she didn't get fasterbecause she wasn't trying to get
faster. Mhmm. No specific goals.No feedback.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Exactly. It's like Anders Ericsson's research on
expert shows. They practicedifferently. They set specific
stretch goals, targetingweaknesses. They focus
completely.
They seek out immediate usefulfeedback.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
And repeat, reflect, refine.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yes. All of that. It can be tiring, strenuous even,
but that hard work is what leadsto those moments of flow. Like
Katie Ladecky describing herworld record swim as feeling
easy because the intensepractice made it automatic.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So the trick is making that deliberate practice
a habit.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Pretty much. Take the judgment out. Just embrace the
challenge of getting better bitby bit.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Then there's purpose. How does that fit in? Yeah. It's
more than just personalinterest. Right?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah. Purpose adds this whole other layer.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
It's the idea that what you're doing contributes to
something beyond yourself, tothe well-being of others. Humans
seem wired for both immediatepleasure, hedonic happiness, and
this deeper sense of meaningeudemonic happiness. Happiness.
That meaning often comes fromconnecting with and helping
others.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
So it's like a deeper motivation.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Exactly. People who see their work as a calling, who
feel like they're making theworld better somehow, they tend
to be much grittier and moresatisfied. Think of the parable
of the three bricklayers. Onesays he's laying bricks, another
says he's building a wall, thethird says he's building a
cathedral. Same job, differentpurpose.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Even a janitor or a subway engineer can see their
work as a calling if they focuson how they serve others.
Purpose can grow over time too,blending with your interests.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And the last pillar is hope. What does that mean in
this context? Not just wishfulthinking, I assume.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
No, definitely not. It's more like resilience. It's
the perseverance that kicks inwhen things get tough. Getting
back up after being knockeddown. It connects to Marty
Seligman's work on learnedhelplessness and importantly,
optimism.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Ah, optimism.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah. Optimists tend to explain setbacks as temporary
and specific. I failed this testbecause I didn't study this
topic enough. Pessimists oftensee them as permanent and
pervasive. I failed because I'mstupid and I'll fail everything.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
And that links to Carol Dweck's mindset idea.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Precisely. A growth mindset believing you can
improve your abilities witheffort feels that hope and
perseverance. A fixed mindsetbelieving talent is fixed makes
you give up easily. Sopracticing optimistic self talk,
focusing on what you can change,and asking for help are key
parts of cultivating this kindof hope.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Okay. So those are the internal building blocks.
But what about the outside? Howcan we help cultivate grit in
others or in our workplaces orfamilies?
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Culture plays a huge role. The environment we're in
really shapes us.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Like with parenting.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Exactly. The author talks about wise parenting. It's
this combination of being reallysupportive and really demanding.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
So not authoritarian, but not permissive either. A
balance.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Right. Like Steve Young's dad, 's nicknamed Grit
for his toughness, but was alsoincredibly supportive when Steve
had separation anxiety. OrFrancesca Martinez's parents,
supportive but also had firmrules, modeled hard work.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Supportive and demanding.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
And this style seems to foster emulation, not just
imitation. Kids don't just copythe behavior. They internalize
the values behind it becausethey feel loved and respected
and challenged.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And does that apply to teachers and mentors too?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Absolutely. Psychologically, wise teachers
do the same thing. Toby Litke,Shopify's founder, talks about
his mentor, Jurgen, who createdthis demanding but supportive
space for him to learnprogramming. Research by Ron
Ferguson shows teachers likethat demanding and supportive
boost student happiness, effort,and grades. Even a simple post
it note study showed that addingfeedback like, I have high
(08:15):
expectations and I know you canreach them, dramatically
increased how many studentsrevise their essays.
That belief matters.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
What about outside of school? Extracurriculars?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Huge. They're described as fantastic grit
training grounds.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Why is that?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Because kids get to do hard things that actually
interest them, usually whilehaving fun. That combo is rare.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
But do they build grit or just attract kids who
already have it?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Good question. Research suggests it's likely
both. Daniel Willingham foundthat follow through in
activities sticking withsomething for years, advancing
predicts later success. Harvardeven looks at this. So sustained
commitment seems to build grit.
It fits with the CorrespondencePrinciple. Our traits lead us to
situations that then reinforcethose traits. Learned
(09:03):
industriousness basically.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
But it also raises that issue about access, doesn't
it? The gap between kids who canafford these activities and
those who can't.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Definitely crucial point. Access and opportunity
matter hugely.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
And what about whole organizations or even countries?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah. Culture at scale. Pete Carroll with the
Seahawks intentionally built aculture of competition and
perseverance using specificlanguage, focusing on core
values. Jimmy Diamond atJPMorgan Chase talks about
instilling fortitude, makingsetbacks, learning
opportunities, not excuses.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
And you mentioned the Finnish idea of Sisu.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Right. That national concept of inner strength and
perseverance. Being part of agroup, a team, a company, a
nation that values grit canpowerfully shape your own
identity and push you to live upto those standards.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Okay. Let's step back a bit. If we were discussing
this, say, in a book club, whatwould be the big highlights and
maybe some points for debate?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Great idea. Let's start with five really valuable
takeaways from this deep dive.One, that super simple but
powerful effort counts twiceformula, talent x effort,
insight up. Skill, skill xeffort, achievement. Just
reframes everything.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah. That really sticks with you.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Two, the clear roadmap for growing grit inside
out. Interest, practice,purpose, hope makes it feel
achievable. Three, understandingthe difference in connection
between deliberate practice, thehard work, and flow, the
effortless performance.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Right. Practice leads to flow.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Four, the wise parenting concept, supportive
and demanding. Such a practical,balanced approach. And five,
just how strongly cultureinfluences our grit. From family
to teams to nations, theenvironment matters.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Okay. Great points. Now for that balanced book club
perspective, what about somecritiques or limitations? Things
to maybe think a bit deeperabout.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Good call. Here are five some the author herself
points out.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Great.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
First, it's very focused on individual
psychology. It doesn't dive asdeep into external factors like
systemic barriers, lack ofopportunity, or just plain luck
that can definitely impactsomeone's path no matter how
gritty they are.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Like the extracurricular access issue.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Exactly. Second, the grit scale itself. It's useful,
but it's self reported, so itreflects how you see yourself,
which can have biases. Third,the extracurricular link. Strong
correlation, yes, but causationis tricky.
Does it build grit, select forgrit, or both? Probably both,
but it's not definitively provenit builds it. Fourth, grit isn't
(11:25):
the only important trait. Theauthor is clear. Character is
plural.
Self control, socialintelligence, curiosity, they
all matter too. Grit isn'teverything. And fifth, sometimes
quitting is the right call.Persistence isn't always good.
Duckworth admits dropping pianoand French let her focus
elsewhere.
Knowing when to quit a lowerlevel goal is also a skill.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
That's a really important nuance. Okay. So
boiling it all down, maybe giveus the top 10 key insights that
people can really connect toeveryday life.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Sure. 10 key takeaways. One, grit beats
talent often. It's passion plusperseverance. Your effort
matters more than you think.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Two, effort counts twice. Remember, it builds skill
and makes skill productive.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Got it.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Three, interests develop. Don't just wait for
passion, actively explore andnurture things. Four, practice
smart, deliberate practice,stretch goals, focus, feedback.
That's how you truly improve.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Five, purpose feels grit. Connect your work to
helping others for deepermotivation. Six, hope is
learnable optimism. Viewsetbacks as temporary and
specific, not permanentfailures. Seven, growth mindset
is key.
Believe you can improve witheffort. Eight, wise parenting
works. Be supportive anddemanding.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Good advice.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Nine, extracurriculars grit training.
Sticking with hard, interestingthings builds resilience. 10,
culture shapes you. Surroundyourself with gritty people and
groups.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Fantastic summary. Now if someone really resonated
with his deep dive on grit,what's another book they might
like? If you like this, you'lllove that kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Oh, definitely. Carol Dweck's mindset the new
psychology of success. Oh, yeah.It goes so much deeper into that
fixed versus growth mindsetidea, which is totally central
to the hope part of grit. Itreally reinforces how your
beliefs shape what you canachieve.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Perfect pairing. Okay. Here's a fun twist. We
like to do a high two to capturethe essence of today's deep
dive. Ready?
Hey. Sashions fire glows. Nice.Perseverance truly grows.
Success then bestows.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I like it, captures it well. So yeah, this deep dive
really shows grit isn't somemagic thing you're born with or
not, it's learnable. It's thatmix of passion and perseverance
you can build through focusedeffort and ideally in a
supportive environment.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Absolutely. So the final thought for you listening,
what's just one small step maybethis week you could take to
apply one of these ideas? Howcould you unleash just a little
bit more grit in your own life?
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