Enjoy this AI generated, entertaining discussion of the book- How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. Learn the essence of the book and take away 10 key lessons. Consider purchasing the book: https://g.co/kgs/TBhxQWj
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Healthspan360 Area: Intellectual/Social/Emotional
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Have you ever been in a conversation where you just
(00:02):
knew the other person completelymissed what you were trying to
say?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh, definitely.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Or maybe on the flip side, you realized you totally
misread someone else and it hityou like a ton of bricks. Mhmm.
That moment of feeling utterlymisunderstood or realizing you
just didn't see them, it'sincredible how often that
happens, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It truly is. That longing to be truly seen and the
challenge of genuinely seeingothers, that really forms the
core of so much human connectionand, well, disconnection too,
unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And that's precisely what we're diving into today.
We're taking a deep dive intoDavid Bricks' insightful book,
How to Know a Person.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Great book.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah. And this isn't just, you know, a book review.
It feels more like a blueprintfor navigating our increasingly
isolated world. It shows us howthe simple act of truly seeing
another person can heal,divides, unlock deeper
connections, and maybe eventransform society.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Absolutely. Our mission in this deep dive is
really to unpack why this skillis so crucial. Explore the ways
we often, fall short. Yeah, metoo. And most importantly, equip
you with practical ways tocultivate a more empathetic and
insightful gaze in your dailylife.
Think of it as your guide tounlocking deeper, more
(01:16):
meaningful human connections.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, let's jump right in then. At its core, what
is Brooks trying to tell us inHow to Know a Person? What's the
big picture he's painting?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, Brooks argues that in an age, you know,
plagued by increasing socialisolation and this tendency
towards dehumanization, theability to truly see another
person to make them feel seen,heard, and understood is
arguably the most vital skill wecan possess.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Wow, the most vital.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
He makes a strong case. It's about bridging
divides, fostering genuineconnection, and he suggests
healing society itself. Hereally emphasizes that life just
goes better when you can seethings from others' points of
view.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And interestingly, he adds that advanced AI for all
its capabilities will never everreplace genuine human
connection.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Okay, so it's not just an abstract idea for him.
He's lived this. He comes atthis from a very personal place,
doesn't he?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Absolutely. Brooks is surprisingly candid about his
own journey. He confesses tostarting out as a bit detached,
a self proclaimed practicedescape artist skilled at making
meaningful eye contact withtheir shoes whenever
vulnerability arose.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Been there.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah. He even recounts this seemingly small
but pivotal moment at a publictheater panel in New York. He
was there with people like AnneHathaway and the sheer emotional
openness of these theater folks.You know, the group hugs, the
easy emoting,
Speaker 1 (02:41):
totally foreign to
Speaker 2 (02:44):
him, but it struck him deeply. It made him vow to
alter his life. He calls himselfa grower and apparently Oprah
herself even remarked on histransformation.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
No kidding. Oprah noticed.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
So the story goes. This personal evolution
genuinely underpins the entirebook.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Wow. So he's really walking the talk. That's
fascinating how he weaves hispersonal evolution into these
big themes. But if seeing othersis such a fundamental need, why
do you think we've gotten so badat it lately? Does Brooks dig
into the causes of thisblindness?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
He certainly does. He points to this deep, innate
human longing to be seen evenfrom birth. Babies, he points
out, come out of the womblooking for a face that will see
them, looking for recognition.If they're not seen, they are
traumatized. You see this inthose still face experiments.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
They really
Speaker 2 (03:32):
are. Where babies left without a response from
their mothers eventually justcollapse in misery. This deep
seated need for recognitionpersists throughout life. The
problem is, our modern worldoften inhibits this, leading to
feelings of invisibility anddisconnection. So yes, it's
about the longing to be seen,the kind of moral imperative to
(03:52):
truly attend to others, and theimportance of practical social
skills over just abstractprinciples.
He makes the case that theseseemingly small micro
interactions profoundly impactmacro societal health.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
That's a powerful point. Now the book offers so
many moments, but also somepoints that really make you
pause and think. What stood outto you as particularly powerful
or impressive?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
What's fascinating here is how Brooks doesn't just
theorize. He grounds his ideasin vivid stories and, surprising
research.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Mhmm.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
For me, five aspects really shown.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay. Let's hear them.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
First, there's the illuminator concept. This is
this powerful distinctionbetween a a diminisher who
labels and stereotypes people.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
We all know those.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Right. And an illuminator who sees the
richness and dignity in everysingle person. He tells this
incredible anecdote about JimmyDorril transforming a 93 year
old woman into a joyous,delighted nine year old girl
simply by seeing her withprofound tenderness. Wow. It
powerfully highlights how ourperception can actually create
reality.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So it's not just about what's out there, but what
we bring to it, how we choose tosee. That's a beautiful idea.
But I mean, in our oftenjudgmental world, how does
Brooke suggest we practicallytrain ourselves to see beyond
stereotypes, especially when ourfirst instinct might be to
label?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah. Good question. That's where his other points
come It brings me to the secondhighlight. A person is a point
of view. This radical ideasuggests that our minds actively
construct reality rather thanjust passively receiving it.
Brooks drives this home withcompelling neuroscience examples
like the famous invisiblegorilla experiment.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Oh yeah, I know that one.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Right, where people counting basketball passes
completely miss a gorillawalking through the scene
because they don't predict it.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Or the door experiment where people don't
even notice a complete strangerhas replaced the person they're
talking to after a door passesbetween them. It's mind boggling
how much our brains filter.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
That truly makes you question what you actually see
every day. Makes you wonder ifI've been talking to a series of
strangers my whole life and noteven noticed.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Well, maybe not that bad, but it's a point well
taken.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Seriously. That's a mind bender. So after a person
is a point of view, what's thenext big idea Brooks unpacks?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Third, the art of asking questions. Brooks
emphasizes the profound impactof humble, open ended, big
questions, not just the casualhow's it going.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
It gets you fine usually.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Exactly. But deeper inquiries like what crossroads
are you at? Or if you weren'tafraid, what would you do? He
shares the example of DavidBradley using index cards to
help people see their lives or afocus group moderator asking
tell me about the last time youwent to the store after 11PM.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Okay. Random question.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Seems random. Right? But it led to a woman sharing
about seeking a menage atroisme, Ben and Jerry.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Ice cream therapy.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It just shows people are eager, often desperate to be
seen, heard, and understood. Youjust have to ask the right way.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
The power of a truly good question is undeniable.
It's like you're invitingsomeone into a deeper part of
themselves. What about empathy?He breaks that down too. Right?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Precisely. That's a fourth point. Empathy is a skill
set. Brooks breaks down empathyinto concrete trainable skills,
mirroring accurately catchingemotions, having high emotional
granularity.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Emotional granularity. Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah. Like being able to distinguish disappointment
from despair, then mentalizing,projecting one's own experiences
onto other situations, seeingcomplexity and caring,
understanding what they need,not just what I would need. He
uses Kate Bowler's device tocancer patients as a great
example.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Ah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
He even cites how actors like Viola Davis and
Matthew McConaughey cultivateintense observation to
understand characters deeply,looking for the minutiae of
everything.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
That frames empathy as something we can actually get
better at, not just a feeling.It's like a muscle you can
train.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Exactly like a muscle. Yeah. And finally, the
fifth key highlight.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Fifth, life tasks as a framework for growth. This
concept drawn from developmentalpsychology identifies common
developmental life tasks likeestablishing agency, career
consolidation, generativity orintegrity versus despair.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Right. Those stages.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah. Understanding where someone might be in their
life journey helps youunderstand why they behave the
way they do. Like an executivestuck in a me centered mindset
or conversely, Adam Neumann'sradical shift to helping farmers
in Sudan after decades of adifferent path. It gives us a
kind of template forunderstanding human development.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Those are certainly some incredible insights. I know
I've definitely been guilty ofthat diminisher thinking without
even realizing it sometimes.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
We all are, I think.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
It's a tough habit to break. But like any spirited
book club discussion, we alsowanna consider the limitations
or areas that invite furtherthought.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Absolutely. No single book can cover everything, and
some points do prompt criticalthinking. First, it's worth
noting the author's own selfcritique.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Which you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Right. Brooks candidly admits his personal
struggles in fully embodying theIlluminator ideal. He says he's
still too much of a topper.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And
Speaker 2 (09:04):
he possesses a natural diffidence that makes
open emotion sharing still achallenge. This honesty is
admirable, but it alsohighlights the sheer difficulty
of the skills he's teaching.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah. It shows it's a real challenge.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
A lifelong journey, even for the author, which I
find quite relatable.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That self awareness is refreshing, but it does
underscore how hard this workis. What's another area for
reflection?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Second, the epidemic of blindness, deeper roots.
While Brooks links societalproblems, loneliness, political
division, hostility, even massshootings to a failure of social
skills.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Which seems plausible.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It does. But some might argue this overlooks
deeper systemic or structuralissues that contribute to these
problems beyond individual moralfailings. Although he does touch
on concepts like recognitionorder and historical
inheritances, the emphasis leanspretty heavily on individual
skill deficit.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's a fair point. Sometimes the problem is bigger
than just personal interactionsor, you know, it requires more
than just individual effort tofix. What else struck you?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Third, the nuance of sacred flaws. The book
introduces sacred flaws. Thesedefenses built in childhood as
both protective and limiting.While it acknowledges their
origins in past trauma, thecritique of them as flaws that
cause rampant irrationalitymight well, it might
oversimplify complexpsychological mechanisms. It
(10:30):
could imply an individual's soleresponsibility for deeply
ingrained defensive behaviorsthat were initially, survival
strategies.
So understanding theirprotective role, not just
labeling them as bad. That makessense. And fourth, fourth, the
impossibility of fullunderstanding Brooks himself
acknowledges that you can neverfully understand a person whose
(10:51):
life experience is verydifferent from your own. He
mentions a panel discussionabout race, gender, and
generational divides as anexample. This raises attention
with the book's core premise ofseeing others deeply.
It suggests that while progresscan be made, inherent
experiential gaps remain asignificant, perhaps
insurmountable limitation tocomplete understanding.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
That of a paradox there.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Exactly. You can strive but perhaps never fully
arrive at a completeunderstanding of another's lived
experience.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
That's an important caveat recognizing the limits of
our own perspective. And finallywhat's one more thought
provoking limitation?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Fifth, the breath of life tasks. While helpful as
templates, the author himselfnotes they are not photographs
and not everyone follows thesame order or performs all
tasks.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right, life isn't always linear.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Precisely. This broad generalization might sometimes
flatten the unique,unpredictable, and highly
personal nature of individualdevelopment and crisis, sort of
making people fit into neatboxes that don't always align
with their lived experience.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
All very thoughtful points that add layers to the
conversation. Now let's distillthis even further. For you, our
listener, what are the top 10vital insights you can take away
from this deep dive andimmediately apply to your lives?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Okay, let's connect these big ideas directly to your
daily reality. Number one, Youare wired to connect
Speaker 1 (12:12):
The absolute foundation
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, the fundamental human need is to be seen and
understood. For modern life,this means actively seeking
genuine connection rather thanjust superficial interactions.
It's crucial for yourwell-being. Think about those
studies on employees quittingbecause they didn't feel seen.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Or the baby experiments again.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Exactly. That innate need is always there. Be an
illuminator, not a diminisher.Your quality of attention shapes
how you see and interact withothers.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Consciously choose.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes. Choose to approach people with tenderness,
curiosity, generosity seekingtheir inherent dignity. This can
transform everyday encounters,from a casual chat to a work
meeting.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Number three:
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Your reality is subjective. Everyone constructs
their own version of the worldbased on their experiences and
internal models.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
The gorilla in the room again.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Ah, yes. So when you encounter disagreement or
confusion, ask, how are theyperceiving this situation? How
are they constructing theirreality? This helps you avoid
misjudgment. Remember, twopeople can literally see
different worlds.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Look steeper if you're tired.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Exactly. Four. Listen actively, not passively. True
conversation is a mutualexpedition toward understanding,
not just taking turns talking.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Practice loud listening.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That's his term. Be so engaged you're practically
burning calories. Mhmm. Use theslant method. Sit up, lean
forward, ask questions, nod,track the speaker.
It invites others to open up.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Five.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Ask humble, open ended questions. Don't assume
you know. Ask. He saysperspective receiving is more
reliable than perspectivetaking.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So ask rather than guess.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Right. Instead of how's it going, try tell me
about or what's it like. Thisempowers others to share their
unique stories. People arelonging to be asked. Social
isolation is a societal crisis.
Loneliness and feeling unseencan lead to bitterness,
hostility, political tribalism.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Bigger picture stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah. Recognize the broader implications. Your
efforts to truly see and engagewith others aren't just personal
acts, they're contributions torepairing the social fabric.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Seven is about empathy again.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
You got it. Empathy is a learnable skill. It's not
just a feeling. It's a set ofobservable and improvable social
and emotional abilities.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
The empathy muscle.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Train it through observation, asking questions,
conscious practice. You shouldget better at kindness and
understanding. Suffering shapes.It doesn't always break. Our
wounds and defenses fromchildhood, Those sacred flaws,
while sometimes limiting canalso lead to profound growth.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Seeing the potential in hardship.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Exactly. Recognize that enduring hardship can build
compassionate awareness. Whenyou encounter someone wrestling
with their wounds, your jobisn't to fix, but to understand,
be present, create an atmospherefor sharing.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Your
Speaker 2 (15:01):
life story is a dynamic narrative. We constantly
create and reinterpret our ownlife stories In a way, yes. Be
mindful of the narrative youtell yourself and others.
Recognize that crises areopportunities to rewrite your
story, integrate newunderstandings, maybe even lead
to a radically different life.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And finally, 10
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Your ancestors are always with you. Our cultural
and family legacies profoundlyshape our perspectives, often
unconsciously,
Speaker 1 (15:29):
the weight of history,
Speaker 2 (15:31):
or just the influence of it. Understand that you are
part of a larger historicalmovement, Being aware of your
own and others' inheritedvalues, traditions, ways of
thinking helps you appreciatedifferences and foster mutual
respect.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
That's a fantastic list. Really practical
takeaways. Now, if this deepdive on how to know a person
resonated with you and you'reeager for more tools to master
connection, we have a perfectpairing for your reading list.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah. If you like this, I highly recommend You're
Not Listening, What You'reMissing and Why It Matters by
Kate Murphy. Brooks himselfactually references it.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah. And it delves even further into the power of
active listening, the hiddencosts of our distracted culture
and gives really practicalstrategies to become a better,
more engaged listener. It reallycompliments the seeing aspect of
Brooke's book by focusing hardon the hearing dimension.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Seeing and hearing makes sense. Great
recommendation.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Okay. To wrap up our deep dive, we've distilled the
heart of this book into a littlesomething special. We have
indeed. Here's a haiku thattries to capture the spirit of
truly seeing another person.Eyes behold a true friend.
Through long conversations bond,hearts begin to mend.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I like that. Conversations bond. Nice. This
deep dive really reminds us thatmastering the art of truly
seeing others isn't just aboutmaking them feel understood.
Mhmm.
It's also about becoming a morefully developed, humanized
version of ourselves. So here'sa final thought for you. What
would change in your dailyinteractions, your closest
relationships, or even thebroader societal conversations
(17:07):
if you committed to truly seeingthe person across from you
rather than the stereotype, theopinion, or just your own
reflection.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
That's the real challenge.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
It is. Maybe start small today and just observe how
your quality of attention canshift the world around you even
just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Thank you for joining us on this deep dive.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and
keep connecting.
Have you ever been in a conversation where you just
(00:02):
knew the other person completelymissed what you were trying to
say?
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh, definitely.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Or maybe on the flip side, you realized you totally
misread someone else and it hityou like a ton of bricks. Mhmm.
That moment of feeling utterlymisunderstood or realizing you
just didn't see them, it'sincredible how often that
happens, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
It truly is. That longing to be truly seen and the
challenge of genuinely seeingothers, that really forms the
core of so much human connectionand, well, disconnection too,
unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And that's precisely what we're diving into today.
We're taking a deep dive intoDavid Bricks' insightful book,
How to Know a Person.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Great book.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah. And this isn't just, you know, a book review.
It feels more like a blueprintfor navigating our increasingly
isolated world. It shows us howthe simple act of truly seeing
another person can heal,divides, unlock deeper
connections, and maybe eventransform society.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Absolutely. Our mission in this deep dive is
really to unpack why this skillis so crucial. Explore the ways
we often, fall short. Yeah, metoo. And most importantly, equip
you with practical ways tocultivate a more empathetic and
insightful gaze in your dailylife.
Think of it as your guide tounlocking deeper, more
(01:16):
meaningful human connections.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, let's jump right in then. At its core, what
is Brooks trying to tell us inHow to Know a Person? What's the
big picture he's painting?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, Brooks argues that in an age, you know,
plagued by increasing socialisolation and this tendency
towards dehumanization, theability to truly see another
person to make them feel seen,heard, and understood is
arguably the most vital skill wecan possess.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Wow, the most vital.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
He makes a strong case. It's about bridging
divides, fostering genuineconnection, and he suggests
healing society itself. Hereally emphasizes that life just
goes better when you can seethings from others' points of
view.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And interestingly, he adds that advanced AI for all
its capabilities will never everreplace genuine human
connection.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Okay, so it's not just an abstract idea for him.
He's lived this. He comes atthis from a very personal place,
doesn't he?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Absolutely. Brooks is surprisingly candid about his
own journey. He confesses tostarting out as a bit detached,
a self proclaimed practicedescape artist skilled at making
meaningful eye contact withtheir shoes whenever
vulnerability arose.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Been there.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah. He even recounts this seemingly small
but pivotal moment at a publictheater panel in New York. He
was there with people like AnneHathaway and the sheer emotional
openness of these theater folks.You know, the group hugs, the
easy emoting,
Speaker 1 (02:41):
totally foreign to
Speaker 2 (02:44):
him, but it struck him deeply. It made him vow to
alter his life. He calls himselfa grower and apparently Oprah
herself even remarked on histransformation.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
No kidding. Oprah noticed.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
So the story goes. This personal evolution
genuinely underpins the entirebook.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Wow. So he's really walking the talk. That's
fascinating how he weaves hispersonal evolution into these
big themes. But if seeing othersis such a fundamental need, why
do you think we've gotten so badat it lately? Does Brooks dig
into the causes of thisblindness?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
He certainly does. He points to this deep, innate
human longing to be seen evenfrom birth. Babies, he points
out, come out of the womblooking for a face that will see
them, looking for recognition.If they're not seen, they are
traumatized. You see this inthose still face experiments.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
They really
Speaker 2 (03:32):
are. Where babies left without a response from
their mothers eventually justcollapse in misery. This deep
seated need for recognitionpersists throughout life. The
problem is, our modern worldoften inhibits this, leading to
feelings of invisibility anddisconnection. So yes, it's
about the longing to be seen,the kind of moral imperative to
(03:52):
truly attend to others, and theimportance of practical social
skills over just abstractprinciples.
He makes the case that theseseemingly small micro
interactions profoundly impactmacro societal health.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
That's a powerful point. Now the book offers so
many moments, but also somepoints that really make you
pause and think. What stood outto you as particularly powerful
or impressive?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
What's fascinating here is how Brooks doesn't just
theorize. He grounds his ideasin vivid stories and, surprising
research.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Mhmm.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
For me, five aspects really shown.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Okay. Let's hear them.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
First, there's the illuminator concept. This is
this powerful distinctionbetween a a diminisher who
labels and stereotypes people.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
We all know those.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Right. And an illuminator who sees the
richness and dignity in everysingle person. He tells this
incredible anecdote about JimmyDorril transforming a 93 year
old woman into a joyous,delighted nine year old girl
simply by seeing her withprofound tenderness. Wow. It
powerfully highlights how ourperception can actually create
reality.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
So it's not just about what's out there, but what
we bring to it, how we choose tosee. That's a beautiful idea.
But I mean, in our oftenjudgmental world, how does
Brooke suggest we practicallytrain ourselves to see beyond
stereotypes, especially when ourfirst instinct might be to
label?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah. Good question. That's where his other points
come It brings me to the secondhighlight. A person is a point
of view. This radical ideasuggests that our minds actively
construct reality rather thanjust passively receiving it.
Brooks drives this home withcompelling neuroscience examples
like the famous invisiblegorilla experiment.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Oh yeah, I know that one.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Right, where people counting basketball passes
completely miss a gorillawalking through the scene
because they don't predict it.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Or the door experiment where people don't
even notice a complete strangerhas replaced the person they're
talking to after a door passesbetween them. It's mind boggling
how much our brains filter.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
That truly makes you question what you actually see
every day. Makes you wonder ifI've been talking to a series of
strangers my whole life and noteven noticed.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Well, maybe not that bad, but it's a point well
taken.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Seriously. That's a mind bender. So after a person
is a point of view, what's thenext big idea Brooks unpacks?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Third, the art of asking questions. Brooks
emphasizes the profound impactof humble, open ended, big
questions, not just the casualhow's it going.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
It gets you fine usually.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Exactly. But deeper inquiries like what crossroads
are you at? Or if you weren'tafraid, what would you do? He
shares the example of DavidBradley using index cards to
help people see their lives or afocus group moderator asking
tell me about the last time youwent to the store after 11PM.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Okay. Random question.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Seems random. Right? But it led to a woman sharing
about seeking a menage atroisme, Ben and Jerry.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Ice cream therapy.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It just shows people are eager, often desperate to be
seen, heard, and understood. Youjust have to ask the right way.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
The power of a truly good question is undeniable.
It's like you're invitingsomeone into a deeper part of
themselves. What about empathy?He breaks that down too. Right?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Precisely. That's a fourth point. Empathy is a skill
set. Brooks breaks down empathyinto concrete trainable skills,
mirroring accurately catchingemotions, having high emotional
granularity.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Emotional granularity. Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah. Like being able to distinguish disappointment
from despair, then mentalizing,projecting one's own experiences
onto other situations, seeingcomplexity and caring,
understanding what they need,not just what I would need. He
uses Kate Bowler's device tocancer patients as a great
example.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Ah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
He even cites how actors like Viola Davis and
Matthew McConaughey cultivateintense observation to
understand characters deeply,looking for the minutiae of
everything.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
That frames empathy as something we can actually get
better at, not just a feeling.It's like a muscle you can
train.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Exactly like a muscle. Yeah. And finally, the
fifth key highlight.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Fifth, life tasks as a framework for growth. This
concept drawn from developmentalpsychology identifies common
developmental life tasks likeestablishing agency, career
consolidation, generativity orintegrity versus despair.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Right. Those stages.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yeah. Understanding where someone might be in their
life journey helps youunderstand why they behave the
way they do. Like an executivestuck in a me centered mindset
or conversely, Adam Neumann'sradical shift to helping farmers
in Sudan after decades of adifferent path. It gives us a
kind of template forunderstanding human development.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Those are certainly some incredible insights. I know
I've definitely been guilty ofthat diminisher thinking without
even realizing it sometimes.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
We all are, I think.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
It's a tough habit to break. But like any spirited
book club discussion, we alsowanna consider the limitations
or areas that invite furtherthought.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Absolutely. No single book can cover everything, and
some points do prompt criticalthinking. First, it's worth
noting the author's own selfcritique.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Which you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Right. Brooks candidly admits his personal
struggles in fully embodying theIlluminator ideal. He says he's
still too much of a topper.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
And
Speaker 2 (09:04):
he possesses a natural diffidence that makes
open emotion sharing still achallenge. This honesty is
admirable, but it alsohighlights the sheer difficulty
of the skills he's teaching.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah. It shows it's a real challenge.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
A lifelong journey, even for the author, which I
find quite relatable.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That self awareness is refreshing, but it does
underscore how hard this workis. What's another area for
reflection?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Second, the epidemic of blindness, deeper roots.
While Brooks links societalproblems, loneliness, political
division, hostility, even massshootings to a failure of social
skills.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Which seems plausible.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It does. But some might argue this overlooks
deeper systemic or structuralissues that contribute to these
problems beyond individual moralfailings. Although he does touch
on concepts like recognitionorder and historical
inheritances, the emphasis leanspretty heavily on individual
skill deficit.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's a fair point. Sometimes the problem is bigger
than just personal interactionsor, you know, it requires more
than just individual effort tofix. What else struck you?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Third, the nuance of sacred flaws. The book
introduces sacred flaws. Thesedefenses built in childhood as
both protective and limiting.While it acknowledges their
origins in past trauma, thecritique of them as flaws that
cause rampant irrationalitymight well, it might
oversimplify complexpsychological mechanisms. It
(10:30):
could imply an individual's soleresponsibility for deeply
ingrained defensive behaviorsthat were initially, survival
strategies.
So understanding theirprotective role, not just
labeling them as bad. That makessense. And fourth, fourth, the
impossibility of fullunderstanding Brooks himself
acknowledges that you can neverfully understand a person whose
(10:51):
life experience is verydifferent from your own. He
mentions a panel discussionabout race, gender, and
generational divides as anexample. This raises attention
with the book's core premise ofseeing others deeply.
It suggests that while progresscan be made, inherent
experiential gaps remain asignificant, perhaps
insurmountable limitation tocomplete understanding.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
That of a paradox there.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Exactly. You can strive but perhaps never fully
arrive at a completeunderstanding of another's lived
experience.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
That's an important caveat recognizing the limits of
our own perspective. And finallywhat's one more thought
provoking limitation?
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Fifth, the breath of life tasks. While helpful as
templates, the author himselfnotes they are not photographs
and not everyone follows thesame order or performs all
tasks.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right, life isn't always linear.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Precisely. This broad generalization might sometimes
flatten the unique,unpredictable, and highly
personal nature of individualdevelopment and crisis, sort of
making people fit into neatboxes that don't always align
with their lived experience.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
All very thoughtful points that add layers to the
conversation. Now let's distillthis even further. For you, our
listener, what are the top 10vital insights you can take away
from this deep dive andimmediately apply to your lives?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Okay, let's connect these big ideas directly to your
daily reality. Number one, Youare wired to connect
Speaker 1 (12:12):
The absolute foundation
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, the fundamental human need is to be seen and
understood. For modern life,this means actively seeking
genuine connection rather thanjust superficial interactions.
It's crucial for yourwell-being. Think about those
studies on employees quittingbecause they didn't feel seen.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Or the baby experiments again.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Exactly. That innate need is always there. Be an
illuminator, not a diminisher.Your quality of attention shapes
how you see and interact withothers.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Consciously choose.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yes. Choose to approach people with tenderness,
curiosity, generosity seekingtheir inherent dignity. This can
transform everyday encounters,from a casual chat to a work
meeting.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Number three:
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Your reality is subjective. Everyone constructs
their own version of the worldbased on their experiences and
internal models.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
The gorilla in the room again.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Ah, yes. So when you encounter disagreement or
confusion, ask, how are theyperceiving this situation? How
are they constructing theirreality? This helps you avoid
misjudgment. Remember, twopeople can literally see
different worlds.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Look steeper if you're tired.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Exactly. Four. Listen actively, not passively. True
conversation is a mutualexpedition toward understanding,
not just taking turns talking.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Practice loud listening.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
That's his term. Be so engaged you're practically
burning calories. Mhmm. Use theslant method. Sit up, lean
forward, ask questions, nod,track the speaker.
It invites others to open up.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Five.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Ask humble, open ended questions. Don't assume
you know. Ask. He saysperspective receiving is more
reliable than perspectivetaking.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So ask rather than guess.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Right. Instead of how's it going, try tell me
about or what's it like. Thisempowers others to share their
unique stories. People arelonging to be asked. Social
isolation is a societal crisis.
Loneliness and feeling unseencan lead to bitterness,
hostility, political tribalism.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Bigger picture stuff.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah. Recognize the broader implications. Your
efforts to truly see and engagewith others aren't just personal
acts, they're contributions torepairing the social fabric.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Seven is about empathy again.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
You got it. Empathy is a learnable skill. It's not
just a feeling. It's a set ofobservable and improvable social
and emotional abilities.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
The empathy muscle.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Train it through observation, asking questions,
conscious practice. You shouldget better at kindness and
understanding. Suffering shapes.It doesn't always break. Our
wounds and defenses fromchildhood, Those sacred flaws,
while sometimes limiting canalso lead to profound growth.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Seeing the potential in hardship.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Exactly. Recognize that enduring hardship can build
compassionate awareness. Whenyou encounter someone wrestling
with their wounds, your jobisn't to fix, but to understand,
be present, create an atmospherefor sharing.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Your
Speaker 2 (15:01):
life story is a dynamic narrative. We constantly
create and reinterpret our ownlife stories In a way, yes. Be
mindful of the narrative youtell yourself and others.
Recognize that crises areopportunities to rewrite your
story, integrate newunderstandings, maybe even lead
to a radically different life.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And finally, 10
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Your ancestors are always with you. Our cultural
and family legacies profoundlyshape our perspectives, often
unconsciously,
Speaker 1 (15:29):
the weight of history,
Speaker 2 (15:31):
or just the influence of it. Understand that you are
part of a larger historicalmovement, Being aware of your
own and others' inheritedvalues, traditions, ways of
thinking helps you appreciatedifferences and foster mutual
respect.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
That's a fantastic list. Really practical
takeaways. Now, if this deepdive on how to know a person
resonated with you and you'reeager for more tools to master
connection, we have a perfectpairing for your reading list.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah. If you like this, I highly recommend You're
Not Listening, What You'reMissing and Why It Matters by
Kate Murphy. Brooks himselfactually references it.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yeah. And it delves even further into the power of
active listening, the hiddencosts of our distracted culture
and gives really practicalstrategies to become a better,
more engaged listener. It reallycompliments the seeing aspect of
Brooke's book by focusing hardon the hearing dimension.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Seeing and hearing makes sense. Great
recommendation.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Okay. To wrap up our deep dive, we've distilled the
heart of this book into a littlesomething special. We have
indeed. Here's a haiku thattries to capture the spirit of
truly seeing another person.Eyes behold a true friend.
Through long conversations bond,hearts begin to mend.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I like that. Conversations bond. Nice. This
deep dive really reminds us thatmastering the art of truly
seeing others isn't just aboutmaking them feel understood.
Mhmm.
It's also about becoming a morefully developed, humanized
version of ourselves. So here'sa final thought for you. What
would change in your dailyinteractions, your closest
relationships, or even thebroader societal conversations
(17:07):
if you committed to truly seeingthe person across from you
rather than the stereotype, theopinion, or just your own
reflection.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
That's the real challenge.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
It is. Maybe start small today and just observe how
your quality of attention canshift the world around you even
just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Thank you for joining us on this deep dive.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and
keep connecting.
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