Episode 6: Paugussett Clan Mother Shoran Piper

Clan Mother Shoran Piper joins Librarians Kate & Adam to share the past & present of the Paugussetts, whose ancestral lands include Bridgeport & areas of Fairfield County.

Thanks for listening to Bridgeport Unmasked. Want to make your own podcast? Beardsley Branch Library in Bridgeport has a podcast studio, open to anyone with a library card from a Connecticut city. For more information, see https://bportlibrary.org/podcast-studios/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone out there and welcome to another
episode of Bridgeport.
Unmasked, I'm Librarian Adam,and today we are recording from
the Beardsley Branch Library inBridgeport, connecticut.
Today we have on Shoren Piper,clan mother of the Pagossets,
and fellow librarian KateMoserticke.

(00:21):
We will be talking today aboutall things about the Pagossets,

(00:41):
so thank you very much both ofof you for coming on.
I want to start by introducingShorin, the clan mother of the
Vagossets, and I feel the bestway to do that is to quote a
couple of lines that she wrotein her book Red Road.
I walk the path of my ancestorsdaily and with my ancestors by

(01:02):
my side.
Daily and with my ancestors bymy side, my father, chief Big
Eagle, told me over and overagain and that if you don't
follow the American Indian waysof life, it'll come back to
haunt you Reclaiming our oldancestral home.
He said with his voice raisedI'm not like the old Indians,
refusing to camp akareservations rather than face up

(01:23):
to the white man.
And he said I'll die and go tohell right here.
You better believe it.
I am my father's daughter andI'm 100 times worse.
Shorin, thank you very much forcoming out to talk to us today.
So that was from your book RedRoad.
Would you mind telling us a bitabout what you wrote there and
what that is?

Speaker 2 (01:43):
telling us a bit about what you wrote there and
what that is Sure, should I givea quick introduction really
quickly Amazing, absolutely yes,please, sego.
My name is Sharan WapatukwePiper.
I am the clan mother tribalhead leader of Golden Hill,
pugwasa Tribe, medicine womanand spiritualist, author of the
book Red Road, spokesperson onmany indigenous rights,
including missing or indigenouswomen and people, and also

(02:06):
spokesperson for Two-SpiritGenders and on the council and
committee there's actually allthe five tribes for teaching the
school curriculum to all of theschool history teachers, which
was the you know of Connecticutmandated for the schools to
start teaching it.
Pre-contact, first contact fromkindergarten all the way up to
college university age.

(02:26):
I am my father Chief Big EaglePiper's successor.
I was due to past few years,undisclosed reasons, the DP,
indian Affairs, the state ofConnecticut attorneys and
lawyers had found documents thatmy dad was appointing me and
naming me since 2003.

(02:46):
Over six different times theyhad those and now I have copies
of those and I only knew of himdoing it in 2008.
But, yeah, so so and you knowmy book, the Red Rose
Afro-Indigenous book.
Speaking of quote, my dad hasbeen through probably hell and

(03:08):
back already, but you know, andhe fought, you know blood, sweat
and tears and he was, you know,fierce and you know, powerful
and fearless.
You know he was never in fearof nobody and he really said
what he really thought and whathe really felt and the things
that you know he's walkedthrough and been through, like I

(03:28):
said, he's probably been readyto, you know, held him back on
everything he's tried to do,everything he's fought for for
his people, his family, you knowhis tribe and then just for
American Indians in general.
So that is kind of you know, mystrength and energy.
You know he had a temper, youknow.

(03:48):
So everybody knew basically howthat man was.
He was considered a legend.
So you know I learned from thebest and most of my genes, from
my dad.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Fantastic.
Well, I hope you speak with thesame honesty and energy today.
I'm sure you will.
Just one question before Iintroduce, kate.
Where could viewers get a copyof Red Road?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
I have some.
They could contact me or theycan go on Amazon or
conjureselfcom and look forpublications.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Cool.
Thank you very much.
And, kate, thank you so muchfor coming on to the podcast to
help this happen.
It's going to be a good one.
I know it is because today is avery special day.
Very happy birthday to you.
Thank you and thank you forspending part of it here in
Beardsley Branch at the podcaststudio.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
I consider it a little bit of a birthday present
, because I do love this stuff.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Indeed, you do, and please tell us more specifically
about why you love this stuff,in particular, what you're
studying right now.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, so I'm a librarian, so I got my MLIS but
I specialize in archives and nowI am getting my master's in
indigenous history from theUniversity of Nebraska, kearney.
So and I actually I will cop toit.
I am a direct descendant ofcolonizers and but it is
continuing.
You know the legacy that someof them it was, that some of

(05:15):
them actually were friends withnatives and advocated for the
local native community andtrying to continue that legacy
in a modern way.
But I'd love to be an archivistfor Indigenous communities.
That's my goal.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
Fantastic.
Well, this is a step towardsthat here in its own regards.
So I'm actually going to take abackseat at this podcast.
I'm going to let Kate andShorin duke it out and tell us
all about all the things thatthey're going to talk about.
So I'll join back in towardsthe end, but let's have a great
podcast All right.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
So, sharon, I'll just start off pretty basic actually
.
Tell us about the Pugussets,about your history, your culture
.
You guys are the local nativepeoples here in Fairfield County
.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yes yes, we have actually two reservations in
Connecticut.
I'm born and raised and stillreside on the oldest continuing
reservation, so 6059.
That's in Trumbull and thenprobably about hours, so minutes
, depending on which way.
You take my nephew, the warchief Kicking Bear Piper.
He resides on the ColchesterReservation with his family.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Oh, okay, so you guys have two different groups on
each reservation?

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah, born and raised .
He's still residing there withhis family, and you know,
grandchildren as well now.
So, yeah, that's awesome, yeah,so yeah, my brother was the war
chief and I appointed my nephewafter his father.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
So Well that actually .
That brings a really into thenext point.
So you're the clan mother, soexplain to us what does that
mean?
And then you mentioned warchief.
What's the difference?

Speaker 2 (06:45):
So the clanmother is tribal head leader.
You will see in differenttribes whether you have a
clanmother or it's just a chiefor chiefess, or you have a
subchief, council chief.
You'll see a difference.
You can have both.
There's a clanmother, there's achief, or then there's just a

(07:07):
clanaremother and no chief, orthere's just a chief or
chieftess and no claremother.
So my dad was a successor aftermy grandmother.
My grandmother was aclaremother, chief and chieftess
.
She went by three differentways.
She was also a medicine womanyes, a spiritualist.
She appointed my father and Iwas named successor.
So I am like the overseer tribalhead leader getting the future

(07:27):
generations ready, keeping thehistory and tribe and doings and
goings alive.
We have a good amount of tribalfamily members who are very
active.
We have 200 on the tribal roll.
We have women who are stillgiving birth to children every
year, which is fantastic for ournext seven generations.
So it's kind of like you know,and the clan mothers have like

(07:52):
the last say.
So they have the last signature, they have the last word.
Everybody would go to conversewith the clan mother on
everything and anything.
I can appoint a chief, I candehorn a chief.
So dehorn in language is kindof like firing, terminating.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
I love that term, though dehorn.
Dehorn, that's a cool term.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
But yeah.
So it's like long story, short,kind of like being the
president, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah, I mean and it's so fascinating because I think
in American mainstream culturewe do consider, we go right to
chief you know, but you know, asRed Road reveals, the chief is
not really the truly highestlevel of power of you know
authority in the tribe the clanmother is.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Their position is higher than the chief and men
still converse, yeah, and chiefsstill converse with the clan
mothers.
You know there's many clanmothers worldwide.
We kind of have like an HREverybody does, all tribes do.
It's so cool.
I call it like that.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
But it's higher, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
And you talk about in here, that, like clan mothers,
you kind of have a secretcommunication between you guys,
which is so cool.
Honestly, these are things thatI mean.
That's why I said it was sorevelatory to just read this
book, because we don't considerthose things.
Those things aren't reallytalked about.
Again, maybe it's coming fromthe western culture, but we look
at, like you know, the malechiefs.
We don't hear much about theclan mothers, and so it's

(09:11):
fascinating to hear and you know, me and adam have talked about
this and it almost seems like aseries of checks and balances on
power and authority that are alittle absent in western society
and culture.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Um, so it's just fascinating again yeah, our
tribe has many of books and, uh,some of the books that my
father has written and spokenwhen he was becoming chief.
There was chiefs that came fromall over.
He knew a majority of them, butthen there were some that he
didn't know.
Yeah, um, and they come.
You know, just like with theclan mothers, they all come and
you know you're being approvedof their ceremony, you know, and

(09:47):
it's kind of like your HR again.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
Yeah, you know, it's just interesting to see how like
power and authority are kind ofgiven.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah, the women are the backbone, you know.
They hold all the healing.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
It makes sense.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
And you know the wisdom and the hope and the
medicines and so on and so forth, and I guess, guess.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
To me it's just so radically different than the
Western tradition that I grew upin.
I mean, as you say, women arelike the spiritual ones, which I
totally dig personally.
But it's just fascinating.
Again, it's so we don't thinkabout this in mainstream culture
.
Again, we think about thechiefs.
When we watch movies aboutIndians, there's the male chief.

(10:24):
But, the clan mother isn'talways talked about.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
So I'm glad we're talking about this and there's a
lot of female chiefs right now.
You'd be surprised.
A lot of women are kind of inlead and have been for a very
long time.

Speaker 3 (10:38):
And you know, in one of my classes, not for Nothing,
we read a book and it wastalking about the use of women
in diplomacy and stuff and inthe Texas borderlands they
fulfilled a very importantposition.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
Very important role.
They hold it all.
They hold it all together.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
And I guess that's what I'm realizing is a very big
difference again between kindof the traditional gender roles
in Western society is that youmake a very good point in here
that they're different, they arenot subservient to each other.
One is not less than the other,and I think that's a really
important part, right, um, and Iagain, it's very different than
where we're coming from withgender roles and you know the

(11:13):
western society, although thingsare changing, of course, right,
right, but it's still it's and,like we said, checks and checks
and balances, much like the usgovernment tries to do in their
way.
And, yeah, so this is a lot oftribes all over the US generally
function in this way, with thiskind of structure.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, you know, there is one tribe in Connecticut, I
won't give the name.
Oh yeah yeah, for privacyreasons and friendship and
relative reasons.
There is no clan mother.
There is no chief.
There is no chieftess.
There's no clan mother.
There is no chief.
There is no chiefess.
There's no like sub-chief, likecouncil chief or like that they
have like a chairman.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, okay, so there's a little variation too,
among things Vice chair andchairman yeah, I mean it is
important to know also, you aretwo separate communities, two
separate people doing things,which, again, I think is a very
important point, because I thinkall too much we think of
Indians as one conglomerategroup when there's so much

(12:11):
diversity within you guys.
So, thank you for that.
No, that's so fascinating.
Again, I don't think we talkabout the clan mothers enough,
but it's so interesting.
So, like you said, the clanmother you are, you know, there
to help guide your people andeverything.
Um, speak to me about childrenin the community, cause you said

(12:33):
some really interesting thingsin red road about how you view
children um and what your roleis in the children's lives and
stuff getting them ready andprepared.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
You know to make sure they have a nice, clean, clear,
open road and staying on thatroad, and you know being able to
not have to suffer.
You know, like our pastgenerations have and to have
that protection as well, to knowtheir heritage, their identity.
You know where they come from.
What does this mean?

(13:04):
What does that mean?
The cooking?
You know going out to socials,going out to powwows, going out
to ceremonies.
What different herbs mean thisand that?
And the medicines that you canutilize, foods and survival
skills.
Mainly, you know we've survivedthis whole time thanks to our
ancestors.
You know we're here because ofthem.
Yeah, thanks to our ancestors.
You know we're here because ofthem, yeah, so trying to make

(13:25):
sure that the youth is preparedto take on what we've all took
on when it's our time.

Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, no, I mean you spoke.
I mean I love the fact that youmentioned that there's a code
of ethics also.
Yeah, that we that you teachchildren, and I just thought
that was so powerful.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, all tribes follow that.
Yeah, you know, know the codeof ethics, you know we kind of
have our own ten commandments,basically, um, you know the
respect word and you know I meanthat's the thing is.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
It was very geared towards.
I mean I got very much thegolden rule out of it that you
treat others how we want to betreated.
I mean, that's a good universalethical rule, right?
Yeah, um no, I just thoughtthat was so fun, like the way
that, like children are closerto spirituality and stuff and
it's fascinating because not fornothing I actually grew up with
that idea that children areclose.

(14:11):
You see that quite a bit, I feellike all over the place and
it's just so interesting.
So you say you were like youspot children early too with
certain like gifts and stuff.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah, they're looked upon at a young age.
You know they're groomed at ayoung age.
But that's how you'll know whocarries that medicine bundle or
who is going to be that warchief or who is going to know
how to sew those regaliastogether, who's a good bead
worker.
You'll see their talents andtheir personalities and the
things and you know the certaintype of dances they might do or

(14:42):
the medicine that they're goingto carry and the spiritual gifts
.

Speaker 3 (14:45):
So yeah, and you try to like foster.
That that's you know.
It's so fascinating, I think,of children, like you know,
inhabiting these roles andshowing these signs so early.
And I feel like, again, wedon't necessarily in our system
we talk about letting kidsfigure it out and go on their
own and we kind of wait untilwe're 18 to kind of get there.

(15:07):
But no, it was just sofascinating and so, like you
know, speaking of kids, what aresome of the challenges that,
like you guys, are facing now?
I mean, you said you have anice, your birth rate is still
going and everything, but whatother challenges are you still
working on that?
You think, your future?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
generations.
I think it's the cost of livingis not what it used to be.
Everybody's struggling and justthe way the world is right now,
it's a really scary place tolive in.
It's not like it used to be, soit's kind of just.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
I think we can all agree on that one.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
You're kind of just teaching things that you might
have taught or been taught fromyour ancestors and your past
generations.
Teaching them that, but alsoteaching them the non-indigenous
.
You know the other side.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Yeah, like yes, both worlds.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, they need to know, you know.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
What is it Two-eyed seeing Like that kind of concept
.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, you want them to know what they're able to
utilize and what they have andknow and what their protection
is, and you know what pathsthey're going to take.
So you kind of worry about thattheir safety.

Speaker 3 (16:13):
You know their living situation and you know their
identity and I think that'ssomething a lot of people can
identify with is worrying aboutfuture generations.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
You just want them to be able to be able to connect
to the land and the earth youknow and Mother Earth, and
maintain their you know, yournative culture.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, no, that's, I think, a really good point, and
I think a lot of people wouldunderstand that, because I don't
think they're the only, I don'tthink a lot of communities are
dealing with that right nowquite frankly.
I mean, let's say I do have a,I'm going to switch gears a
little bit.
I'm thinking I want to switchgears a little bit.
Thank you, I'm looking at myquestions.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
That's okay, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Okay, so you're in Golden Hill, right Golden Hill.
But originally Golden HillReservation was located in
downtown Bridgeport correct 80acres.
yeah, yes, 80 acres and now youguys have a quarter acre in
Trumbull Race, which was.
It was awesome to read yourfather's book, a Quarter Acre of
Heartache.
I almost consider Red Roadalmost like a follow-up to A
Quarter Acre of Heartachebecause they're talking about

(17:07):
very much the same ideas.
So it was really fascinating toread that and then go on to
your words and how you kind ofcontinued a lot of those ideas.
But I mean, how does it feel,knowing that that's a main
commercial center and that wasyour people's lands and like
burials, are there still andstuff?

Speaker 2 (17:28):
it's a very long, hard fight.
Yeah, you know, our pastgenerations, fathers,
grandfathers, uncles,everybody's, our ancestors,
everybody's fought for that andstill fighting for that.
You know, um, giving prayers,giving thanks for our ancestors,
know who may be under a lot ofthat rubble, who may be under a
lot of that foundation, you know, letting them know that our

(17:52):
side has tried, you know,numerous times which.
I know, they know this, I'msure they see this, but to at
least acknowledge, you know Iguess that was my next question
the tribe is like acknowledging,bringing the tribe in, you know
, basically giving it back.
Really, I know that's not goingto happen overnight, you know
one, two, three.
I know we've been trying toreally, you know just bringing

(18:14):
the tribe you know up to date,up to speed, having a good
relationship, you know, with thetribe and the government
politicians you know and workingtogether.
But yeah, that's just a lot ofthings is wishful thinking.
Yeah, a lot of prayers andhoping things do turn around.
And come back to the tribe.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yeah, God, I can imagine that I mean a lot of
wishful.
Yeah, I mean not for nothing, Alot of.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
that is like Rocky Hill that they gave you, just
can't use it, you know can't useit.
Oh yeah you know, trying totell us we could give this.
Yeah, it's just.
You know, we have overseers andland being stolen and taken.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Well, as you said, now you only have a quarter acre
in Trumbull.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, and they think that because we were making
brooms and baskets that we made.
You know good living off that,that we didn't need our land.

Speaker 3 (19:05):
And you know it's a lot in those document, history
paperwork.
There's a lot.
Yes, I can tell you from my ownclasses.
There's a lot there, I mean forall over the United States.
I think we, you know, again, inmainstream culture, we think a
lot about the Western natives,but I mean it's over here too
and you guys have been dealingwith it longer, 200 years longer
.
So I guess yeah, that was myquestion is, I mean, as you know

(19:27):
, non-native people who live inthe area, what can we do to kind
of you know, respect that andhonor that history?

Speaker 2 (19:31):
I always tell a lot of people to.
It's also a word of mouth andjust bringing awareness, whether
you have social media, whetheryou have your own blog or so on
and so forth, talking to yourfriends and family, letting
people know whose area it is,whose land it is.
You know that once you know,golden Hope of Guasset lived
here.
And listen to all these namesof the streets, the wording
that's all American, indian.

(19:53):
There's so many native wordsthat are still existing, just
for people to keep bringing thatawareness and speaking that and
talking about it, keeping ourname out there and alive in what
area?

Speaker 3 (20:04):
And you know, not for nothing.
It's funny because I always goback to in school.
I was told, you know, theyreally talked like they really
minimized the Native impact here, but then I would go home and
I'd have my father going no,what are they talking about?
This is where they live, theylove.
Look at this place, it's greathere.
Like, why would you not want tolive here?
I mean, and like I've said, hewas friends with people in the

(20:25):
Pequot so I got that educationvery early.
But no, I mean not for nothing.
I have been trying to have youguys at the Bridgeport Library,
so you guys are present becausethat is historically your land.
But so we're going to continuedoing that and try to bring you
guys.
But you're right, I mean it'sgood to know how we can, as
non-natives, advocate, because Ithink for a lot of non-native

(20:47):
people we want to be allies, wewant to advocate, but we also
don't want to be guilty ofappropriating anything or going
too far.
So it's good to hear this fromyou and to hear that, which
actually that brings me to mynext question.
Say, what would you have to sayto people who are a little

(21:07):
different, non-native, but whomaybe don't you use the word
jive in your book.
Don't jive with Christian Judeotradition.
But you know, find much moreidentification in with native
spiritual beliefs.
Is there anything, any adviceor anything you have to say to
them?

Speaker 2 (21:22):
Yeah, and I've just been like this all my life.
I used to always tell my motherI don't like when people would
preach to me or try to put thereligion and culture on me.
Everybody should be free tochoose what path of religion and
culture they want to take.
But respect everybody's,understand everybody's.
You know we go into the Nipi,which is Sweat Lodge.

(21:44):
That's our church.
What do you mean?
That's your church.
Well, that's your church, youknow.
Well, you can bring this Biblein your church.
No, we cannot bring that Biblein our church, you know.
So you know we want people tounderstand.
There is a line there tounderstand and to respect that.
You know we have our ancestorsthat died for our sons.
You know our grandmothersprayed for us to be in existence

(22:07):
and for our protection downhere.
A mutual respect, yeah, I just,you know I don't want everyone
to think, oh, you can't justkeep blaming this religion and
that religion.
But are you not seeing thefacts?
What your religion did?

Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
To a lot of children and women and you know, elderly
there's, you know, rape andabuse and murder and kidnapping.
Yeah, you know, I mean everyday they're finding all the
evidence and remains everywhereat churches.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
Residential schools and all that.
Yeah.
So I mean, well, that's a bignew.
I know that's a big one,because I know in Canada they
found that mass grave.
Yeah.
So I mean, well, that's a bignew.
I know that's a big one,because I know in Canada they
found that mass grave.
Yeah, they've been going to allthe states.
Yes, these days I know theyhave been, Do we?
Have any residential schools inConnecticut.
Did we?

Speaker 2 (22:52):
have some.
Yeah, I know there was a reportthat went out that they were
speaking with some of them andlooking, and so they're going
around and they're doing that.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
But so we're okay.
So that's.
So were the Pugussets?
Did they go to those missionschools?
Were anybody from the Pugussetssent there?
No, there's different schools.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
I went to a transitional house and it was
out of state.
I know a lot of friends andfamily relatives whose aunts,
mothers and, you know,grandmothers who were part of
different residentials, whoseaunts mothers and grandmothers
who were part of differentresidentials.
My father went to a school andI don't know if you read it in a
lot of the documents or in hisbook, but he had gone to a
school here in Bridgeport and hewas tired of all the abuse.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
And then he ran right .

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, he ran away, you know, because back then, you
know, you had the nuns, you hadthe ruler.
Oh God.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I have heard it from my mother in the 70s yeah With
the nuts.
I can only imagine.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
So, yeah, he couldn't do it anymore.
I don't blame him necessarily,but it's incredible to hear him.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
He's like, how old was he when he ran away?
And he was pretty young, right.
Yeah, 9, 10 years old, I can'teven imagine I would not have
been able to handle myself inthe 90s.
But I mean it ended up workingout really well for him.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
He ended up meeting that family, the Levine family
and the funny thing is theLevine family still live in
Maine and my dad passed away in2008.
And they stayed in touch.
I love that.
And they sent a letter lettingus know that when he turned 18
and 19, you know, and he left.
He was grown now.
He wanted to you know, do otherthings and tribe and you know

(24:25):
his mom, things like that.
They left his room the exactsame way that.
It was still the same exact way.
That is so sweet.
Up until the day he passed away.
They never touched it Becausethey thought that you never know
if he ever had to come back,even if he was a grown man, if
any of his children you knowgrandchildren, and they stayed
in touch with him.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
They like fully adopted him into the family.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, they stayed in touch with my grandmother, his
mom.
You know they communicated.
She was okay with him, you knowliving there.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
And this was a non-native family right.
Yes, and I think that'simportant to know is like it
wasn't always.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, because my dad traveled through the woods to
stay off from Connecticut toMaine.
He, you know, traveled throughthe woods to stay off.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, I can't imagine nine or ten in the woods.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh, he survived.
It's incredible, and he was avery smart man for not
graduating high school grammarschool little school.
None of that Very smart.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Very smart man, and that doesn't really indicate
intelligence all the time.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Oh yeah, he knew everything and anything.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
It's just so incredible to think of a
10-year-old boy going throughthe woods to Maine.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
Not to Maine, which is not even just down the street
.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
That's a good few days, yeah he was spiritually
gifted so he knew to trust thatfamily.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
I mean, I found him and took him in, and that's just
you know, and they could havebeen in trouble as well.
You're hiding a minor at a veryyoung age for a while.
Yeah, I was going to sayespecially like these days.
Yeah, oh yeah, it's a littledifferent, but yeah different,
but uh, yeah, no, and it'sinteresting.

Speaker 3 (25:52):
I think it's also interesting to point out that I
mean, when you get to individualrelationships like that, it's
like, um, the differences startto melt away.
I mean, in one of my books andthey're talking about living in
allotment and stuff, and thebooks I read for my class and
how they did end up being quitegood friends with a lot of their
white non-native neighbors they, just once you get to know
people, yeah, we, yeah, I meanwe've had friends.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
we call them we always call them supporters of
Golden Hill.
But they develop friendships,yeah, and they're not American
Indian and you know they supportthe tribe very well and you
develop wonderful friendshipsand you know they're friends
with other tribes.
I love that.
You know they're always thereto assist and bring awareness
and to support in any way theycan.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, on, like whatever you need on the other
side.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
You know that's always a wonderful, great thing
to have those friendships andrelationships that people do
support any and every AmericanIndian tribe, you know, not just
one particular one, you know.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
I think I come from a family like that.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, I mean even my stepfather.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
I mean, he has traveled extensively in the
Southwest and he has traveledextensively in the Southwest and
he has visited many tribes downthere and collected some art
and stuff and he's very muchinto it also.
So I was really excited when hecould come and meet you last
week.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, that was really nice.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
So your father, like you said, he knew who to trust
and stuff and he was spiritual.
So I guess what would you haveto say to non-Native Americans
about approaching the land, whatwe can do?

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Well, just giving for Mother Earth you know that's
our mother, you know for theearth and the land, and just
giving thanks to her forproviding, blessing the land,
you know, respecting the land,Don't destroy it more than it is
.
Mother Earth is hurting.
We're all suffering.
You know this global warming,this climate change, it's a

(27:38):
little too late.
That's kind of like someonetelling you you have stage four
cancer.
You have a leak.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
It's a little too late.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
You're trying, you know, to make things better with
the global warming and climatechange, but it's really a little
too late.
In the meantime, you know, justgiving prayers of thanks and
respect Mother Earth and theland that is.
You know, our mother.
She's hurting, she needsmedicine.

Speaker 3 (27:59):
She needs healing.
You know we could turnThanksgiving into an actual
Thanksgiving for the earth.
I mean, you know she'sproviding, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
and then you've got our trees that provide the water
and oxygen.
They're providing, the firewoodto keep the warmth.
They're providing, you know,the medicines, and you just
gotta give thanks every day andpray for their healing.
You know, pray for this globalwarming and climate change to
get better.
I know it's too late, but youjust gotta give thanks and just
kind of keep praying for them.

Speaker 3 (28:23):
Not for nothing.
They're also Respect that earthand land.
I will say also, they'reprobably.
I mean, do some research aboutnative grasses.
My brother, he has gotten veryinto that, so he planted
wildflowers and clover all overour yard, which got us a few
comments from the neighbors, buthe held strong.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
I like the no-mow, look everywhere.
I think that's really pretty.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Well that's the thing we got a really mixed response.

Speaker 3 (28:45):
You'd hear some people go by and be like, oh,
they need to mow their lawn.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, but it's so pretty Then you get other people
come by and be like, wow, lookat all the flowers.

Speaker 3 (28:52):
Yeah, especially the little babies, they love it.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, you know we do the best that we can Me and my
sons.
We'll go to certain areas ofour land mostly, especially like
Indian Wells and SheltonGarbage bags and I've done it
too with friends.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
We'll bring garbage bags and gloves and just clean
up.
Yeah, I mean, it's not a badidea, that's our ancestral land.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
That's our ancestral place.
We can't leave that like that.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
It's not a bad idea.
I mean we could all do that,yeah, so we go, we clean it up.
You know, I do a little quick.
Like you said, it's very basic.
That's simple.
You can be Native, non-native,you can be non-American.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
And I understand like you and five other people could
be walking down the street andthose four people just dumped a
whole garbage can full ofgarbage on the street.
There's really nothing you cando about it.
Yeah, you know, besides pickingit up, cleaning it up.
But for you personally, show,you know, creator, show Mother
Earth that you did not do thatYou're not going to drop your
trash on the carpet.

Speaker 3 (29:52):
You know, on the land I'm going to be honest, I
actually I was in the.
I think it was Yellowstone andI saw someone in Yellowstone
throw trash and I went into thebushes and grabbed it because I
didn't want to yell at them,because I didn't want to be that
person.
But I went and grabbed itbecause I didn't want to be that
person.
But I went and grabbed itBecause, again, I was like what?
I was speechless Of all places,Yellowstone, yeah, of all

(30:15):
places, Yellowstone.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
I was like come on and Aspen Stone too from tribes.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
That's a whole other topic, for another day, but
although, to be fair, we do havethem.
So go enjoy those nationalparks.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Beautiful place.

Speaker 3 (30:31):
They are beautiful and, honestly, when you walk on
those places, you can feel, youcan feel that there is something
special there that is American.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Indian land.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
The Badlands.
Like I told you, we weretalking about once the Badlands.
You feel it there Honestly.
You feel that there issomething there.
Can't put my finger on it, onwhat it is, but there is
something there.
I also think it's fascinatingthat with things like that, they
all call it the BadlandsDifferent languages the French,
the English.
God, it's the natives that wereliving there.

(31:00):
It's just so fascinating.
But you're right, I mean thesespaces.
I mean to me it kind of callsall around the world we have all
these different religioustraditions, but there are
certain places that seem to holdspirituality, regardless of
what it is All right so goingforward.
You know you talk.
We've been talking a lot aboutthe future.
What is one of?

Speaker 2 (31:24):
your big goals for your community that right now or
in the Well, I, I want all ofmy you know family, tribal
members, you know members, tothrive, to survive, to live a
happy, healthy, blessed,protected life, especially for
their children and grandchildren.
Like I said, our next from you.

(31:49):
You meet all seven criteria,plus more.
They give you that preliminaryprobation 30, 90 days, 69, you
know just to find something.
They ask for it.
You provide it.
So they continue to ask forstuff.
You provide it.
But then they want you to runinto a snag where they're like,
okay, no, this isn't going towork, this is what we need.
It's not matching up blah, blah, blah, this is what we need.

(32:13):
It's not matching up blah, blah, blah and then it's, you know,
removed from you, just like withthe other state tribes here in
connecticut.
Yeah, that being revoked andtaken away on the most worst day
, on columbus day.
You know what?

Speaker 3 (32:19):
oh my gosh, I didn't even know that was on columbus
day you know so, as manypoliticians.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
you know, we have a lot of politicians that are on
our side, and then there's a lotof politicians who are against
us.
So you have one who has evensaid in court, under oath, that
the Golden Hill Pugwasa tribewas a real, legitimate tribe,
which was Richard Blumenthal.
You have the Connecticut Mayornewspaper that you can find
online, going back to like 2018,all when Obama was in office

(32:50):
and they ended up revoking andputting a ban, which was only
for the state of Connecticuttribes.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
I didn't know that.
I didn't know about this rule,yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
That if you apply for federal recognition, you could
no longer apply again.
They put that under the BIA,the Bureau of Indian Affairs.
So which?
That's where they get you,because everybody has around the
whole entire United States.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
Applied for federal.

Speaker 2 (33:12):
Right To give somebody else a chance.
Now the thing with that isagain that was only supposed to
be for Connecticut tribes.
Yeah, they ended up puttingthat.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
Yeah, you had mentioned that at one point
Around.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yes, and kind of all their tribes around the world
who are state, trying to befederal.
Then you have some that aren'teven state and they're trying be
federal.
Then you have some that aren'teven state and they're trying.
They got caught in ourcrossfire and they're fighting
as well as the state tribes herein Connecticut.
You know we're all in supportof each other.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
We're all helping each other.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
We're all backing each other up.
We all have our own separatetribal.
You know attorneys, but againthey did this past recent like
summertime.
They started in summer and youknow fall or September, maybe
you know there was a deadlinewhere they opened it up for
public comment.
So anybody and everybody canwrite a public comment of

(34:01):
support online email.
They had a listening session.
Our tribal chairwoman was on it, our lawyer, there was a few
people, but again it was mixedtribes on there.
But you had a listening sessionof public comments.
So there's two people at theBureau of Indian Affairs who are
working on this and our lawyersare on top of it.

(34:22):
Tribal attorneys and we'rechecking the sites.
Reporters that I have spoken to.
They keep calling and askingBIA for a comment.

Speaker 3 (34:29):
I was going to say a comment.
If people are interested, youcan go and there's a bunch of
news stories about what's goingon.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
It's online, the news stories, the up-to-dates and
going on.
The Bureau of Indian Affairs,which a lot of that information
and the dates are very old.
I'm talking years and yearswhen my father was still alive.
They haven't really updatedanything on there or put any new
things of dates, but so, we'restill fighting, you know,

(34:56):
because that federal recognitionis our identity you know yes.
Yeah, and you know it's ourmedical and our housing and our
healthcare and schooling.
And our language.
Yeah, there's a lot you knowwith that.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
I guess to non-native people.
We're like what is the point offederal?
Yeah, everybody thinks it'scasino and land claims.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Let's just stop with that.
There's a lot more to that.
It's preserving our culture,our nature, our identity.
There's a lot with that.
Sovereignty yes, there's awhole lot with that.
They need to give everybody achance.
Listen to the tribe.
Don't take one side and runwith it.
Stop just listening to one sidethat is putting fear in you,

(35:35):
misusing their political officeto put fear into the residents
of Connecticut About what wouldhappen.
Why don't you get theinformation straight from the
horse's mouth?
Why don't you listen to bothsides?
Ask a million questions.
We're going to answer it.
There's plenty of informationto show that we are not lying.

(35:56):
We are telling the truth.
That's online.
It's all public document.
You know our documents too, onBAA.
Anybody can get on there andread.
It's all a public forum.
You can read everything there.
So there is things in there.
So you know you're listening toone side and they shouldn't be.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Get all the information from both sides and
then make a determination andyou're not wrong.
Then there's the other, not fornothing.
There are the logistical issuesof you know, a lot of native
cultures were oral and they justdon't have the written records
before a certain point.
So then we just have all thattoo, it's just a whole bunch of

(36:35):
issues going on.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Correct.
Well, we wish you luck on thatone and we'll have to keep an
eye on that.
Yeah, it's a lot of our tape.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
I would just say a lot of document paper.
Oh, bureaucracy, what are yougoing to do?

Speaker 2 (36:47):
I mean, and it's spread out everywhere.
It's spread out in, you know,the state capital, in
Connecticut.
It's spread out in WashingtonDC at Bureau of Indian Affairs,
you know, and then we have ourson backup disc because, you know
, paperwork is very old veryfragile, very discolored.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
Archive, man Right, we have places where it's
archived and locked up you knowkey and broad, oh, and you have
a digital physical everything,oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
And it's spread out to specific people and places
where you wouldn't even know orthink of like and people that
you don't know, yeah, tribalpeople, you know that wouldn't
know because it's under lock andkey for safekeeping Fair.
You know, because a lot of thatdocumentation you never want to
lose, you never want to let goof, you don't want.

(37:29):
You know floods, water, youknow everything gets ruined.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
You can't buy that.
You have it in five differentplaces.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yes, yes, you've got to have a backup, you know,
especially for those futuregenerations.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
Especially when your status and a lot of your future
hinges so crucially on thosedocuments.
I mean, yeah, we necessarily,don't necessarily think about
that, because it's not fornothing I lose my copy of
whatever.
I can go down to town hall andget it.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Well, our tribal attorneys too.
I mean just boxes and boxes.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Oh, I can imagine.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
And they're out of state.
We have one, you know, in stateyou know, and then we have one
in Washington and one in Florida.
So I mean it's boxes and boxesand one, and then he visits,
like in New Jersey.
So there's a couple otherpeople that he yeah communes and
talks with, that work with us.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
So it's yeah, I mean they're far away places too,
because I have a box for my ownfamily, I can imagine the amount
of boxes.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Oh, boxes Probably fill this room.
I mean, they have a lot of it,a lot of it.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
Although part of me think.
I mean I don't think.
Like you said, there's a lot ofthings.
We hear federal recognition asnon-natives and we have certain
connotations, but we don't evenrealize the process and how
difficult it is and thechallenges, especially in a
place like Bridgeport where alot of your documentary evidence
colonized and lost not fornothing, I mean, but you have

(38:52):
been able to maintain certain.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Correct, correct.
But I also do think that thefamous words and I learned this
from my dad even for militarypersonnel, no matter what office
or business or place you callvital records, it doesn't matter
.
Oh, we lost it in the fire,everything is a fire.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Everything is a fire.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Everything is a fire.
That's all you hear.
I think a lot of it is there.
You have it.
You don't want to give up thedocuments or you just threw it
out.
You got rid of it because it'snothing, it's nobody.
You just throw the tribe againback on the back burner and you
forget about it Not for nothing.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
We do lose archival documents sometimes and they'll
get lost in the collection.
You kind of got to refine them.
That does happen.
But you're right, it happens alot.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Yeah, that famous word Every time I talk to other
people that have said oh, I'vecalled this place that place and
you know, even if it hasnothing to do with us, but you
hear it around.
It's like the famous word andmy dad used to say it all the
time yeah, even when he neededsomething and it's his military
paper, oh, it was lost in a fire.
Yeah, and I know there.

Speaker 3 (39:55):
Actually like, I guess, some group of military
files that were lost in a fireand it happened to be my
ancestor's files lost in a fire.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
What are you going to do?

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, sometimes it does happen and now I hope that
you know.
Maybe it's just between somepages and we just got to find it
.
That's the other difficultywith archives.
That does happen, that is knownto happen.
Yeah, they get lost, but Ithink that's.
The fun part about archives,though, is when you rediscover
that Mm-hmm that would be.
You know, that'd be like ohdreams.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
Dreams.
That's why, you know, I learneda lot from my father to write
everything down, yes, to makecopies of everything, put
everything in binders, and youknow, I just my father was the
same way.
I'm glad because it's all thesame thing.
Yeah, everybody just has a copyof it.
So you know it's.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
My father did the same thing about our own family
history.
He made sure everybody had it.
He has the original buteverybody has a copy, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah, we have a few tribal family members in Maine
that have binders of things, soyou just got to know.

Speaker 3 (40:55):
My difficulty now is finding out who has what.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
That's what.

Speaker 3 (41:04):
I'm trying to put together.
It'll be hard to find on my end.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
So no, but I mean I don't know everybody on mine, so
it's going to be hard to find.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, but I mean, yeah, you're right, though I
mean thinking about, like myface, it doesn't even have this,
it doesn't have this need forthis documentary evidence, and
we still have boxes and boxes.
You're right, the amount ofdocuments must be immense.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Oh my gosh, I never even thought about that, yeah
and a lot of them could just getruined in general of moisture,
Just moisture, If you don'tpreserve paperwork from like
1800s.
That's a big thing so even ifthere's no floods, you know
there's nothing.
No spilling juice, or you knowpudding or something on it.
Food-wise, it's the actualatmosphere.

(41:45):
Yeah, mold things like that, soyou still have to preserve.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
That is one of the biggest problems in archives is
HVAC systems.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Yes, you still have to preserve and then lighting
too.
I learned a lot over the years.
Museum, and you know historyteachers and historical
societies.
Lighting can actually damage apiece of paper.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
So I started out as a chemistry major and going into
archives the amount of chemistrythat actually became applicable
to archives, you're right.
The light, the temperature Imean, I think it's the Beinecke,
they have it.
So the marble is so thin the UVdoesn't come through, which is
so awesome.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, so there's a lot that goes into that.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
It's very nuanced.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Copy machine and USB.
There's a lot that goes intothat.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Exactly, yeah.
And well, different fileformats, too aren't always equal
.
I mean, have you guys had thathappen?
Have you guys lost any recordsdue to, like, file obsolescence
Mold, oh, okay.
Mold, yeah, okay fair.
And anything with an oldtape're gonna like that stuff
has to be at the tape.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Yeah, mold that stuff is not that and and very
expensive to do a lot of thischangeover and copy and sending
and you're not wrong and it'syou know.
Archives are a good thing toovery familiar with that but no,
my, I mean again, even in myfamily it's very helpful and
easy when some of our people'straveled and, yeah, rental, so
it's it's lot easier.

(43:02):
But it does get very costly.
You know it's it's not easy.
So you know, for just peoplelistening, you know, oh, that's
kind of easy, Just go to library.
It's 15 cents a page.
No, it's a lot of work.
It's very costly it is.
And switching, you know,digital, because every
technology is upgraded, you know.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
And it's so fast VHS and yeah, so I mean, I remember
as a kid we went through all thekind of family VHSs and my dad
got this really handy machinethat was a DVD recorder and VHS,
so as he played the VHS.
It would record onto DVD.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
Oh cool.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
I think we still have it technically.
But no, because that was hisconcern.
He didn't want to lose any ofthose and he knew that the
magnetic tape was already kindof going out.
No, you're right, it took awhile.
He did that for ages.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
And that's just with our own videos.
It's long.
It's a lot of work.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
A lot.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
I mean, that's why some people make whole jobs out
of it.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
Oh, okay.
So how can we, like non-nativesin general, non-natives also
advocate for, like you know,native people in general all
over the US?
I mean, we have a lot ofstereotypes, a lot of
misconceptions.
What would be your advice forpeople who are non-native, to
kind of help with that?

Speaker 2 (44:12):
I do see a lot of non-natives, especially the
youth, college, high school age,basically I see a lot of
non-natives who are in big, hugesupport of indigenous peoples.
They already are advocatingwhatever way they can to support
and help out.
I love that.
And then you know, I think it's2024.

(44:33):
Nothing ever changes.
So, you still get the same as itwas when we were in school.
Yeah, you still havenon-natives.
Whether they are children,teenagers, adults, it doesn't
really matter.
Age, grade school, it doesn'treally matter.
You're still going to run intosomeone who's going to
disapprove of you, yeah, who isgoing to be rude and
disrespectful.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
It's always, there's always someone right.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
Will argue with you.
Politics yeah, you know when itcomes down to that.
So I'm very thankful for thosewho are in support and I'm
thankful for those who want tolearn, who want to start
bringing awareness and want to.
You know.

Speaker 3 (45:08):
It's awesome that the teenagers are in on it, because
you kind of think a teenager isa little punk and you remember
that yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
I've seen it a lot.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
So we're improving, we're getting better.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, because I think they take the time to listen
Fair and they ask questions andthey were probably taught that
in school and I've been bouncingaround speaking to so many
teachers and schools.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
And have you been in the Bridgeport schools though?
Yeah, yeah, awesome, because Idid see in your father's book
that he used to run aneducational program at the.
Bridgeport schools.
What was that?
I just didn't know.
I know he was.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
PTA ABCD.
Well, I know it's not calledthat anymore, it's called
Alliance or something like that.
People are telling me it's notcalled ABCD anymore, it's just
called Alliance.
He, yeah, he went aroundtraveling to schools and
speaking history and about thetribe and about himself.

(45:58):
He started in prisons.
Oh, okay, wow, so he was a lotof American Indians in prison,
so he started a prison circle,which I don't know if many of
the prisons are still going anddoing it.
I know a lot of people wereappointed after that and they
still kept it going for so long,until our medicine man Tom
Flanders passed away.

(46:19):
He was one of the chaplains inthe prison, so he continued on
for my dad.

Speaker 3 (46:23):
I have no idea.
Wow, that's incredible.
Yeah, so interesting.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
So the schools?
Yes, still going around Myselfand other tribal members for
years, years, we just bouncearound Whatever schools reach
out to us.
Awesome, that's what I like anddepending on the age and grade,
you know performance.
That's what I like to do and,depending on the age and grade,
you know performance eitherstancing or strumming.
Storytelling.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Topics you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Presentation slideshow.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah, it all depends on questions.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
I'm sure you can talk with the high school kids a
little bit different Craftmaking, so it all depends what
they request.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, yes, which your crafts are usually awesome by
the way.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (46:58):
Everyone had a lot of very good things to say about
your bees, by the way.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Actually, one of my coworkers complained about not
being able to do it.
Oh no, but it's really good tohear though the younger
generation.
I mean you know you like tothink that things improve after
a while.
Right, have you been workingwith the Freeman Center?
Is there a connection there?
Because I know you guys'history is extremely intertwined
with Little Liberia andeverything, and you speak about

(47:24):
that in Red Road too.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Yes, so Mary and Eliza Freeman, relatives,
cousins, Fascinating women Rightthat I have seen and gone, due
to undisclosed things, of otherAmerican Indians, who was at an

(47:47):
opening somewhere here inBridgeport and some things were
not mentioned or said.
Long story short, they areAfrican American and American
Indian, okay, but for whateverreason they keep being left out
of that.
They are American Indian.
Golden Hill, boguasset.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Again, I can't.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
So there was a little thing there and I went through
all my documents.
Yeah, and you speak to it andhear it again.
Paperwork and files and records1800s.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Yeah, All that Freeman and Sherman, and I've
heard of Charles Burleson healso mentions it and stuff and
how they work.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
It's all backed up, but I tried to put myself out
there, so I have other membersof the tribe.
Yeah, my nephews and you knowother people on the board and
council.
I've spoken with a lot of them,met with a lot of them and part
of the center.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
So there is a communication and talk, yes, and
no, I'm probably not going tocome on that any further.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Fair enough, many people listening, but about I
mean, like you say in your book.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
Don't disclose too much, fair enough but as you say
, privacy act, yeah, kind oflike the HIPAA law on our end.
Fair, fair, fair, no-transcript.

(49:07):
They should be honored andrespected and told.
Not only are theyAfrican-American, they're
American Indian and they arefrom Golden Hill, bogota Tribe.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
And they're women.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yes, I just you know.
I do the best that I can to tryand help the best that I can.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
You know, if they need my help the Freeman Center,
if they want to reach out tothe tribe, we're more than
welcome to work with themtogether and help out in any way
we can, and I think that'sreally important for people to I
mean again non-natives to knowpeople who, like me, are white,
non-native Like again, thecommunities are very intertwined
, like it's not Not quite soseparate black and white.
Yeah, like a lot of overlap inbetween.

(49:43):
Like you say, there's a lot ofsimilarities in spirituality and
traditional spiritualities.
Yes, which again was veryrevelatory for me because I
think in our culture we see theAfrican American and the Native
communities as very separate.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Yeah, but in history they are not.
They're our ancestors, they'remy ancestors and I give thanks
and gratitude to them.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, and I mean, if you look at the seminal and
everything, they're all mixed,it's just different.
Like we have to change howwe're thinking about this
history.
We have to change ourperception, our perspective.
Yeah, wrap our heads around it.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:14):
That it isn't like it's all just so intertwined
Right Impacts each other.
But yeah, no, that's.
Thank you for answering thatquestion yeah, you're welcome.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
It had occurred to me that I didn't ask about that
because I didn't honestly justwant to know.
And do either of you haveanything else?

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Yes, is there anything else that you want to
say?
Add this is your platform.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
No, I thank you, I thank the listeners and you know
.
Many blessings to all of youand may you all walk in peace
and beauty.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Thank you very much, shorin, and thank you to
everybody out here who has beenlistening to this episode of
Bridgeport Unmasked.
We have been clan mother Shorin, piper, librarians Kate and
Adam.
The book is Red Road and thisis Bridgeport Public Library's

(51:02):
podcast.
Join us for another episodereal soon and please tell your
friends, family, mortal enemiesand random strangers that you
run into all about this podcast.
Have a great day all of you.