Ghosts on Lindley St.?: A Debate

In November 1974, bizarre things happened on a house on Lindley St. in Bridgeport—​can they be explained physically, were they the work of ghosts, or did they happen by something else entirely? This debate pits different explanations against each other in one of the Warrens' most famous paranormal investigations.

Thanks for listening to Bridgeport Unmasked. Want to make your own podcast? Beardsley Branch Library in Bridgeport has a podcast studio, open to anyone with a library card from a Connecticut city. For more information, see https://bportlibrary.org/podcast-studios/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of Bridgeport Public
Library's new podcast series,Bridgeport Unmasked, where we
talk about true crime, localhistory and all things related
to the Park City.
I'm librarian Adam Cleary, andjoining me today at Beardsley

(00:21):
Branch Library's podcast studiois my fellow Bridgeport
librarian, Andre Massa.
Stick around today to hear ourthoughts on one of the most
famous and confounding allegedsupernatural phenomenon in the
history of Bridgeport,Connecticut.
Andre, thank you so much forcoming out today.

(00:43):
Yes, Thank you.
Thank you, Connecticut, Andre.
Thank you so much for comingout today.
Yes, Thank you.
Thank you, Andre.
Thank you for having me.
Glad to be here, Of course, ofcourse.
So, yeah, we're going to getthis party on a roll pretty soon
, but first I just want to makea couple shout-outs.
First I want to shout-out toMike Balao, who is helping us

(01:06):
out.
Get ready for today.
Thank you very much, Mike.
And yeah, Mike is our fellowlibrarian here at Bridgeport and
I know, Andre, you did someconsiderable research there at

(01:26):
the Bridgeport History Centerthrough the library.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I want to give a shout out actually to the
Bridgeport History Center forall of those amazing newspaper
articles they provided me.
It's really a wonderful placejust being able to see a
snapshot of what things werelike in the 70s and even the
articles written in the 90safter.
That was a wonderful experienceand it's a great resource for
the citizens of Bridgeport tohave.
So thank you so much again.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Absolutely is, and the History Center, which I like
to call the world's leadingauthority on Bridgeport,
connecticut, is located at thedowntown library, the Borough of
Satan's main library, 925 BroadStreet.
Come on over and research allthings Bridgeport.
So, yeah, that's pretty awesome, andre, how are you doing today

(02:11):
?

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Instead of telling you how I'm doing, I'm going to
ask you a question.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Why was the cemetery so popular?

Speaker 1 (02:21):
Hmm, well, I think you better tell me why the
cemetery was so popular there.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
People were dying to get in.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Oh, wait a minute, where is it?
Where is it?
Where is it?
Yeah, I found it Great.
That's awesome.
Yeah, good stuff.
Yes, no, everybody out thereyou have to forgive us for that
are major connoisseurs andaficionados and such words of
the dad joke.
So, yes, so we wanted to startoff with one, and you will have

(02:53):
to forgive us if a dad joke ortwo slips out there during the
course of this podcast.
But really, andre, how are youdoing?
But really, andre, how are youdoing?

Speaker 2 (03:10):
I mean, was it too much of a commute for you to
come here from the customerservice desk 12 yards away from
this podcast studio.
Yeah, I didn't feel like comingin here, but I couldn't miss
this.
We're talking about ghosts, sothat's always a fun time, right.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Absolutely, and we are in fact going to talk about
Bridgeport native ghosts heretoday, specifically the things
that happened on Lindley Streetin 1974.
But before we get to that, weare in the Beardsley Public

(03:42):
Library here in Bridgeport,connecticut, and given, andre,
that you spend at least a littlebit of time, in this library.
Tell us what's going on hereEvents, major doings, what's
happening.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
So, as you know, we actually just recently opened
our podcasting studios to thepublic.
So if you're 18 years or olderand have a valid library card
from any library in Connecticut18 years or older and have a
valid library card from anylibrary in Connecticut, you are
free to come reserve one of ourstudios.
After you either watch a videothat we actually did in here,
which thank you for that, by theway.
I loved it.
No, you're welcome, and or youcould take one of my orientation
to podcasting sessions.
We do have those on.

(04:20):
We do have those on the website, but I am having one on
Saturday.
This Saturday actually.
Come to that.
It's at 3 o'clock.
Give me a call at 203-332-0025if you're interested.
Other than that, we havecomputer classes every Tuesday.
We have a chess club for kidsevery Monday.
By the way, come to Beardsley'sbirthday party this Saturday.

(04:44):
Happy birthday to Beardsley.
I've officially been open forone year now, so that's fun.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Well, it seems like it's been a long time.
I guess I just spend a lot oftime visiting this building here
, but that's pretty awesome.
Beardsley Branch Library is oneyear old, but yeah, no.
So thank you, andre, forplugging, among other things,
the fact that, yes, anyone 18years or older and with a

(05:13):
library card from a Connecticutpublic library can register to
use this very podcast studiothat we're sitting in.
And you know, there's a numberof ways, as Andre said, that you
can learn how to use ourpodcast studio and model how to

(05:35):
make your own podcast, but oneof the best ways might be to
listen to a podcast.
So, with no further ado, andre,I say we get into the meat of
this today.
What's up?
Awesome, great.
So, yeah, today we're going tohave a little bit of a debate
over the possible explanationsof some wild and crazy stuff.

(05:57):
Thank you, steve Martin.
Some wild and crazy stuff thathappened in a house on Lindley
Street here in Bridgeport Houseis still there, and yeah.
So, andre, I know, as you justsaid, you did some solid
research at the History Center.
Could you give us a historicalbackground and just tell us what

(06:18):
shenanigans were going down inNovember of 1974?

Speaker 2 (06:23):
Well before I do that , if anybody's looking for a
house, the house on LindleyStreet is worth right now
$101,038.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Okay, that is very interesting and I do believe
it's currently resided in it is.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
You'd have to buy it from somebody.
Fair enough, fair enough.
But you know, there's a lot ofgood podcasts on what you know,
the facts of what happened onLindley Street, if you want to
call them facts, right and sothat's why we decided to take a
different direction in thispodcast where, instead of just
you know, trying to representthe information that others have
done an arguably better job ofdoing, we're going to be here to

(07:01):
actually discuss whether theyhappened or not.
So a brief background on whathappened.
The Goodens moved into thathouse on Lindley Street sometime
in the 60s.
They had a seven-year-old son.
He had cerebral palsy, actually, and he did not, and it was
difficult for the Goodens totake care of him, but they loved
him very much, but heunfortunately passed away at the
age of seven.

(07:22):
In 1968 they started noticingthings.
They weren't major things, itwas just maybe things being
moved around that nobody couldhave possibly moved around.
There were some episodes ofmaybe arithmetic banging and so
forth, but nothing that actuallylike, freaked them out or, you

(07:42):
know, made them know thatsomething, something
supernatural was happening.
Right at some point I think itmight have been 1971 the rip,
the banging got louder and gotmore consistent and the Goodens
ended up thinking well, you know, there was a lot of
construction going on near StVincent's Hospital, but there

(08:03):
were also people that wereplaying pranks.
That they thought right, andeventually what happened is
after Halloween the bangingstopped and all seemed good and
lindley street until hellweekend in 1974, which is
exactly when these eventshappened.
So in November of 1974, right,the Goodens and their daughter

(08:25):
Marcia ended up hearing thebanging got louder and louder
and louder and then curtainsended up falling off their racks
that Friday night and theGoodens just had no idea what to
do.
Saturday, the TV startedrotating all over the place and
any time they tried to move itback it would just rotate again

(08:48):
at a 35-degree angle.
But it wasn't so bad at thatpoint.
Sunday in November 1974, which Ithink the exact date might have
been around Thanksgiving,that's when everything kind of
hit the wall.
So the Goodens ended up callingin the police.
It was a cry for help.
Everything kind of hit the wall.
So the Goodens ended up callingin the police.
It was a cry for help and atthat day over 40 officers or so

(09:13):
ended up going into thatbuilding and there were all
kinds of happenings.
Refrigerators were described asbeing lifted off the ground and
it was a carpeted floor, by theway, so nobody could have
grabbed that refrigerator.
The TV ended up actuallyfalling on Laura Gooden's toe

(09:35):
and ended up breaking it.
There was a photo that wasbroken.
It looked like from the inside.
Sherabs ended up falling fromthe walls.
Jerry Gooden ended up reportingfrom the walls.
Jerry Gooden ended up reportingthat knives were being thrown
towards them, dishes wereswirling around and slamming on
the ground, and they tried to doevery possible explanation.

(09:55):
The fire department inspectedthe building.
There was nothing wrong withthe wiring, there was nothing
wrong with the furnace.
They even tried at points tosee if maybe there was some
seismic activity that wasactually happening at the time.
But you know, they ended updetermining that it wouldn't.
The tremors weren't strongenough to influence anything and
even if they were, it wouldn'taffect just one house.

(10:17):
But over 40 officers did notwant to go back in that house
because something strange washappening in there.
And that's what we're reallyhere to debate, right, whether
these things were of asupernatural cause or whether
they weren't.
Um, I will say some back alittle background that I might
have missed on before.
Um after their son died when hewas seven.

(10:37):
The good ones ended up adoptingum, a native from canada.
Her name was marcia um.
Marcia was described as notwanting to leave her tribe in
Canada, but the Goodens took heranyways.
And the Goodens loved her verymuch, but they were very
overprotective of her, to thepoint where she wasn't even
allowed to see friends unless ofthe Goodens were there.

(10:57):
So Marcia was a very was a girlwho was very isolated and did
not have a lot of friends.
She often tried to substitutemaybe those with a lot of teddy
bears that she carried around,and she was bullied on
mercilessly at school.
At one point the kids evenmocked her for her darker skin
as being an ape per se.

(11:19):
And she did not have an easytime.
She did not have an easy time,and what happened in 1974 is she
just happened to turn 11.
And that is when everythingstarted getting.
That's when, actually, thathell weekend for the good ends
up happening.
And one of the popular theoriesfor why a poltergeist might

(11:45):
appear is that poltergeists seemto a they favor woman more than
men.
Um and b.
They seem to harvest off a lotof the negative energy,
especially from an adolescentright, people that are going
through puberty, people that aregoing through a lot in their
lives, and so most people seemto think that the appearance for
the poltergeist had a lot to dowith a lot of the stress and
maybe a lot of the emotionaltrauma that Marcy was

(12:08):
experiencing that gave off thisnegative energy for the
poltergeist to feed off of.
But that's go ahead.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
Okay, no, that was a fantastic.
That gives us exactly thebackground that we need.
That gives us exactly thebackground that we need.
Plus, you were able to sneak ina little bit of your ghost
favoring argument there, tellingus a little bit about how these
alleged things exist.
Fine, that's fair.
I can respect somebody wholikes to jump the gun a little

(12:39):
bit.
No problem, let us rock androll in just a moment, because
we want to just plug two sourcesthat you might want to check
out if you want to know evenmore information.
Though, that was a very goodsummary of things.
You clearly did your research inthe History Center.

(13:00):
One resource to check out isthe World's Most Haunted House,
is a book by William Hall thatwe have at the library, and if
you want a copy, uh, please callus at 2 0, 3, 5, 7, 6, 7, 4 0 0
, extension 500.
And, uh, I will make sure thatin some way or form, we have

(13:27):
that information also in thedescription of this podcast.
And also, there is and we'regoing to link the episode of
Amazing Tales from On and OffConnecticut's Beaten Path, which
is a podcast series, uh, run byMike Allen, and this episode,
the episode about the Lindleystreet hauntings is by our very

(13:50):
own librarian, jamie Pettit.
Yeah, because I just like tooveruse the sound effects.

Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, because I just like to overuse the sound
effects.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
Oh you are wonderful things.
It's probably my favorite partof doing these podcasts, if
we're being honest and also okay.
So, andre, I'm almost ready tolock horns.
Just got to give this littleshout out here that the
Bridgeport Public Library doesnot take a stance or endorse any

(14:26):
particular interpretation ofwhat happened on the Lindley
Street house in November of 1974.
These are either a combinationof just objective arguments that
we're going through to give youan idea of what people may be
thinking about this, or also ourpersonal opinions, and if they

(14:48):
are our personal opinions, we'llmake that known.
And with that, you ready tobutt heads.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, let's do it All right, that's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
So I won the coin flip.
That never happened.
That never happened.
We actually just talked it outlike adults, rather than letting
the magic of a spinning quarterdetermine who did what and in
what order.
So I am definitely going togive you the practical skeptics
view of this right the wholenotion that, no, no, this was

(15:23):
just the same stuff that makesapples fall to the ground.
Right.
Two reasons I'm taking that on.
One, I'm inclined to believethat or believe something like
that, and I'll explain what Imean by something like that
later on in this podcast.
But two also, I would like tobe able to talk to my brother

(15:48):
and look him in the eye againafter this doctorate in
astrophysics.
So I need to have his respectby giving you the scientific,
practical argument of whathappened on Lindley Street.
Now, the obvious major advantageof a practical argument for

(16:11):
what happened is that we don'tneed anything else except what
we know we have.
Right, no need for anassumption of the existence of
ghosts or anything.
If a physical explanation canbe made, you know you don't have
to just throw in something fromthe outside.

(16:36):
A few points to be had whensaying this was just physical
stuff going on One is that notevery bizarre activity is equal
when it comes to how dubious orhow explainable these events are
.
Right On one end, there were afew reports of either the cat or

(17:04):
the swan decorations on theporch talking.
Now, the problem here a coupleproblems here is that one nobody
actually saw them talking.
They thought they heardsomebody say something and they
thought it was.
Then they attribute it to theswan or the cat because they

(17:27):
were there but nobody actuallywitnessed, you know, mouth
moving in such a way that thesewords would be coming out.
And also there were, by the endof that Sunday there were a lot
of people there and it would beeasy to mishear speaking.

(17:47):
So that's kind of a dubiousevent that happened there.
However, there are some thatare astounding, like yeah,
what's going on there?
And I think, my personalfavorite I know, I know I'm sure
people laugh behind my backabout how much I focus on this
one in particular but the fridge.

(18:09):
The fridge is pretty.
I think we can say the fridgeis pretty impressive that
multiple times throughout thisweekend refrigerator was
reported to lift inches into theair and then turn a little bit

(18:30):
and then go down, and no pulleysor mechanisms were found.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
It ended up even hitting I think.
I don't know if it was theirneighbor Holsworth or a
different officer, but it endedup actually hitting one of them
in the elbow and almost injuringit too.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
Oh yeah, no, no, you make a great point.
This thing also moved around.
Reportedly it moved across thecarpet without leaving any
traces on the carpet, which isinteresting, which is

(19:07):
interesting, you know.
That kind of makes it tough tosay it was some operation
underneath, some sort ofmotorized whatever pulling it
around.
Okay, so, given that there weresome things that are everyday,

(19:38):
physics works right.
Trying to hold with thisargument, and you might be like,
well, if it could have beenphysical or it could have been
supernatural, then isn't itstill up in the air?
Again, I feel that if there isa physical possibility, that is
a huge benefit to a physicalargument, because physical

(20:00):
arguments have the advantagethat, you know, they don't need
anything else other than what weknow, is there?
Okay?
So, point being point being, afew things I want to point out,
is that one, the weird eventsother than the knocking.
The knocking had gone on forseveral Novembers previous to

(20:23):
this weekend, but all the otherevents of note started on Friday
night.
The Goodens did not report thisto the police or to the
neighbors until Sunday around 10am.
So I'm sorry to say, and I know, I'm sure Andre is going to
jump down my throat for this oneand I know some listeners are

(20:46):
going to not be happy with mehere we can throw out everything
that happened before Sunday at10 am, because nobody was there
to verify that this washappening.
And yeah, no, I get that.
I get that.
You know people are going to beticked at that because you know
a lot of people are reallybehind the good ends, because

(21:09):
the good ends are nice people.
I'm going to I know this isn't,I know this isn't like you know
, presidential candidacy debateswhere people you know cut each

(21:30):
other off entirely.
I'm actually going to.
I'm actually going to.
I'm going to stop after this,because I know Andre is dying to
say something, but he is toopolite to to to not cut me off
here.
Yeah, something you need to knowabout the Goodens, these people
whom we're trusting theiraccount alone to describe the

(21:54):
majority of the time of thisvery bizarre weekend.
Mr and Mrs Gooden and theiradopted daughter decided to stay
in and sleep in this house fromthe Friday night to Saturday
morning and then Saturday nightto Sunday morning, right worthy

(22:20):
of people who said oh, tablesare flipping over, knives are
being flung at us and you knowwhat we're going to do.
We're going to go to bed now.
Yeah, there's a ghost flyingaround doing crazy stuff and
yeah, we're going to go to sleep.
We're going to make ourselvesunconscious for a few hours and,
oh yeah, our child daughter.

(22:42):
We're going to make sure she'salone in her room while we're
unconscious, even thoughtelevisions and a bureau have
fallen within inches of her bed.
These are the types of peoplewe have to trust.
Go ahead, andre, throw at mewhat you will.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
So here's the thing about the Goodens was that even
before the police ended upgetting called in on Sunday at
10 am, the Goodens wereterrified.
They had gone to theirneighbors and they had expressed
even before that there wassomething going on in there and
that they had no idea what wasgoing on.
And that they had no idea whatwas going on.
The thing is right is that theGoodens tried to look for every

(23:26):
possible explanation that wasrational in nature before
because they wanted to stay inthat house.
They already had that houseinspected even before Hell
Weekend began that November 1974.
They had that wiring checked,they had the furnaces checked,
all kinds of things, becausethey were so desperate for a
rational explanation.

(23:47):
Now they didn't want to callthe police in because that was
the only home that they hadknown.
And these were, by the way,these were good people, as you
mentioned.
They had no reason to monetizeanything as far as any of the
research that I did, and youknow they didn't have any

(24:07):
financial hardships or anythingright.
There was no motivation tomonetize the event.
But they so desperately triedand tried and tried to explain
everything with some kind ofargument based in, physics,
based in and they couldn't andso they.
It's almost like a snappingpoint happened that Sunday

(24:30):
morning and, by the way, yousaid that they were unconscious
for a few hours.
But William Hall actually saysin his book that that Saturday
into Sunday hardly anybody slept.
They might have slept for maybeonly two to three hours because
they were so terrified right,and the events didn't really
reach a tipping point until thatSaturday.
So that Friday night theGoodens sat down for TV,

(24:52):
witnessed the strange thingshappening with the curtains and
went back and they were able toget some sleep that night.
But then they were so terrifiedSaturday that they couldn't
sleep, were so terrifiedSaturday that they couldn't
sleep.
And it is.
It is, I think maybe I don'twant to say it may be a little

(25:13):
bit unfair to be skeptical ofthe Goodens because it took them
two whole days to report whathappened.
But I would say that at leastthere might have to be a degree
of compassion or understandingto be given to somebody that
that's the only home they knowand they did not want to leave.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
Okay, fair enough.
Yeah, I was a bit of a jerk tothem, that is fair.
I fully sympathize with theterror of what they're going
through and the fact that, yeah,this is their house and you
don't exactly just.
Well, why don't you just getout or leave it?
I still think they could havespent the night with a neighbor

(25:50):
and plus, you bring up that theytried to explain things.
You tell me what universitythey got their degree in
forensics from, and then I willtrust.
I will trust their ability toinvestigate how these events

(26:10):
were going down.
Now, in addition to the factthat, okay, so, before before
Sunday of at 10am, I am takingthe position that there were too
few people to corroborate whatwas going on, just a few hours
later, in the afternoon ofSunday, I'd say there were too

(26:33):
many people to corroborate whatwas going on.
This attracted so muchattention that traffic was
blocked on Lindley Street, andso you might say that would be a
boon, right, that would givemore witnesses.
Well, remember, nobody's there,just in a neutral manner.

(26:53):
Everybody's excited, everybodyreally wants some supernatural
event and they're like where isit?
Where is it?
Where is it?
You know?
I mean, I think you get dozensof people there and you get one
person who gets really excitedand is like holy smokes, did
anybody else hear the decorativeswan talk just now?

(27:14):
And everybody would be likeyeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
decorative swan, decorative swan.
And I think that's where we getthese dozens of reports from
civilians and officers.
And remember, officers are noless or more good at being
eyewitness testifiers.
Just because you're wearing auniform does not mean that you

(27:37):
are any better than me oranybody else at looking at
something and reporting it.
Anybody else at looking atsomething and reporting it.
So, really, in my opinion, itcomes down to that sweet spot of
when the first few officers gotthere, between Sunday at 10 and
Sunday at around a couple hourslater, let's say noon-ish,

(27:59):
before other officers showed up,other officers who were already
in a state of oh, this is wild,this is something crazy, right.
So confirmation bias they'regoing to see something and say,
yeah, that's right, that's aghost, that's a ghost right
there.
And remember, you can't say Idon't know what causes it.

(28:22):
Therefore, a ghost causes it,right, that's along the same
lines as I don't know what thatthing in the air is.
Therefore it must be flown byextraterrestrials.
Well, if you don't know what itis, or if you don't know what's
causing the refrigerator tolevitate, then you don't know
that it's a ghost.

(28:42):
You just admitted you don'tknow.
But there is that two hoursthere, and so we have to do some
soul searching here.
Either it was some hoax that wehave not figured out yet or we
have to completely dismantle ourmodel of a physics-based
universe, and I'm more willingto side with the scientists

(29:05):
there than Jerry, laura and acouple of officers who someone
may have been tricking someonethere.
So, yeah, that is the practicalbased bit.
And you know, andre, go ahead,um, uh, I, I do have to warn you

(29:26):
to say whatever you want andthen go on to yours.
I have to warn you, um, I'mgoing to be a little more out
for blood than you are when youmake, when you make your
argument in a moment.
Go ahead, uh, you have thefloor man.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
All right, so, uh, I do want to say I think you do
make two really good pointsactually.
Thank you, number one.
A little background actually.
I believe the exorcist came outin 1971 and I think you did
mention the possibility in theargument that you know when
somebody, especially when this Ididn't ever watch the exorcist
but I I heard it was prettyscary.

(29:58):
So when you have this film thatcaptured the imaginations of
the public and was in the publicpsychology, I think you do make
a good argument that people canthen become even more
psychologically biased towardswalking in and anything that
they look for could potentiallybe.
Well, that's a ghost, because Ijust saw this movie not too long
ago.
It possibly could have affectedthe officers, but william hall

(30:21):
actually states in the world'smost haunted house that the two
officers that were called and Ibelieve one of them's name was
Lizzeni they were told when theywere called that there was just
an unexpected event happening,that it wasn't anything of a
haunted house, and when theycame in they actually attributed
what they saw as a burglary andthat was the first assumption

(30:43):
that they had.
They saw as a burglary and thatwas the first assumption that
they had.
So they didn't have thepsychological preconditioning
that there's a ghost in here, sothat has to be attributed to.
You know, the poltergeist ishaving some fun with the good
ones, right?
Um, they came in there and theywere trained to be professional
observations within thatphysics-based universe and yet

(31:03):
at some point backup got calledin and over 40 trained policemen
and firemen all were soterrified, right?
People that are in life anddeath situations all the time.
They've seen things that wehaven't seen as librarians, but
these people did not want to goback into that house.
These people did not want to goback into that house and, if

(31:27):
anything, they were actuallypsychologically preconditioned
to be a skeptic, as you are, andthey ended up leaving that
place legitimately believingthat something supernatural was
happening.
And, by the way, it is worthnoting that the Goodens were
given a psychologicalexamination by Mr Beatty when he

(31:47):
did his report on the estate.
So, as far as I know, all ofthese people were conditioned to
actually be skeptics and theyended up coming out of this
situation with, call it, theheebie-jeebies, if you will, but
a belief that somethingunexplainable by science, by
physics, was happening onLindley Street.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
And I would say it would just take fooling the
first few of the emergencyresponders and the rest would be
convinced to follow suit.
That's the point I'm making, isthat what we really want to
look at is those first fewofficers who set the tone and

(32:30):
the mood for everybody else whowas going to come in that day.
But you are correct, they aretrained to be skeptics and
obviously you know, the firstofficer who came in first
presumed it was a burglary forquite some time before changing
his mind on that.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think , listen, I think that there are
things that might be a bitstretched.
Like you mentioned the cat inthe beginning.
Right, many people attributedthat to being ventriloquism,
ventriloquism, um, I do notthink that.
I do not think that marcia hadthe skills or the ability to be

(33:10):
that, you know, to be thatskilled at ventriloquism to make
the cat called.
But potentially, yeah, ifpeople are in a frenzied state,
they might think that they heardthe cat saying let me out of
here.
Uh, I believe it was you dirtygreeks, um, and they wow, that's
.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
That's a pretty disgusting cat.
Yeah, this cat was not a happycamper.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
And then there were some more supernatural
descriptions that Hall evenmentions where the Warrens
actually saw these four entitiesend up forming as an exorcist
was happening, and I couldprobably concede that those
might be a bit.
You might argue even worse, butthose could be a bit stretched
explanation for what happened.
But some of these things, likea refrigerator coming off the

(33:51):
floor, a TV falling on LauraGooden's angle right Three
different police officers triedto move that TV and just
insisted at staying at an angleor the things that happened with
the recliners right, those ones, I think we ran out of the
physics-based arguments andthere were too too many people
that saw it happen.
And it's just something.

(34:16):
Something had to happen there.
That is hard to explain.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Sure, a Broadway magician was feeling a little
like he wanted to do somethingfun that day.
Okay, I had to end it at that.
Sorry, I am a sourpuss.
I will defend my point and Iwill rip apart yours.
So please start it so I couldhave that joy and privilege.
Thank you, All right.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
So, number one, we'll have to talk about the hoax,
right?
That is the most popularexplanation for what happened
here.
Um, marcia was described asbeing 11 years old and weighing
70 pounds.
Um, and there, I do not thinkthat she would have the strength
just to be able to use her footcleverly while an officer had

(34:59):
his back turned and moved therefrigerator that is.
I am about 5'2", maybe about155 pounds.
I would have a hard time movinga refrigerator and it would
take me some time that somebodywould be bound to notice me.
The recliners were interestingbecause when Marcia sat in those

(35:21):
recliners they moved or theybent in a direction that it
looked unnatural and that itmight break.
But then one of the priests Ibelieve it might have been
Father Doyle, if I'm correct.
He was a heavyset man of about250, 260 pounds and he couldn't
do anything to a recliner.
And even before Father Doylesat in that recliner, all of the

(35:43):
officers sat in there and theycouldn't make it go in the way
that Marcia, a 70 pound girl,had made it go in.
Even beyond that right, it isdifficult to imagine that the
Goodens had anything to gainfrom perpetuating this as a hoax
.
They did not seek attentionbecause after the things

(36:07):
happened on Lindley Street, manyreporters tried to reach out to
them and Jerry wanted nothingto do with them at all.
That's quite the oppositebehavior from somebody that
wanted to be in the nationalspotlight for living in a
haunted house.
As I think I mentioned before,the Goodens had no financial
hardships, nothing that wouldmotivate them to monetize this

(36:28):
event, and even then there werethings that were reported in
1968.
So what was this hoax than afive-year plan Like?
Why start these things six,seven years before and then all
all of a sudden exploded in 74,right?

Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, I mean, just as the jerk I am, I'm actually
going to throw that your exactthing right back in your face.
Why was the ghost so bad atscaring the good ands out, or
whatever its intention was it?
You know it decided Novemberwas a fun month, came around
each November, knock, knock,knock, and then this weekend

(37:09):
like I'm trying to, okay, so.
So you made a great.
You made some great pointsabout.
Yeah, this is kind of hard forphysics alone to, you know to,
to determine unless we have, youknow, uh, chris Angel, uh, was,
was in Bridgeport that weekendand wanted to have some fun or
something.

(37:35):
That being said, why a ghost, asthe alternative explanation,
not very good at whatever theheck it was trying to do?
Because it doesn't seem like itwas trying to do anything in
particular.
I mean, if it was trying tohurt the good ends, it could

(37:56):
have done so much more easily ifit was trying to scare them out
.
Remember, these events happenat least 15, 20, 30 minutes
apart.
I mean, if I wanted somebodyout of a house, I would just
keep throwing things andlevitating things until they got
out.
I don't know your notion on howan intelligent being, albeit a

(38:19):
non-living one was motivated todo this.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Well, okay, so one thing about poltergeists is that
they're not necessarily.
This particular poltergeist, atleast it seems, was not tied to
the property itself.
But it was actually tied, Ithink, or was feeding off
supposedly of Marcia Gooden'snegative energy.
And that's why, like in myresearch right to explain the

(38:44):
origin of this poltergeist, Itried to find out if there were
any, maybe violent crimes thathappened on Lindley Street or
maybe anybody died there, right,and I couldn't find anything.
So that rules out that thepoltergeist in nature was
attached to that property.
So it wouldn't have anymotivation to get the Goodens
out of the house.
It probably was just morefocused on feeding off of Marcia

(39:07):
and in that case it wouldreally have no motivation to
injure the Goodens so badly thatit would incapacitate them,
because you know they need thedaughter so that it could
continue to exist.
Whatever it was right.
But it is still worthmentioning that people did
suffer some minor injuries,laura Gooden's.
The TV ended up falling atLaura Gooden's foot and she

(39:29):
couldn't walk.
If that was a hoax, why do thatto yourself?
That seems to be a very, veryextreme action to take, just to
perpetuate that there is a ghostin your house for a family that
already hated the attentionthey were getting.
Um, it's just, it's just sohard to believe then that they

(39:53):
went through all of this effortto hurt them to.
You know, jerry loved his wife,so it would be mind-boggling to
think that laura wanted to hurtherself just to get unwanted
attention.
And even before that, you know,I believe it might have been
Colesworth, their neighbor, andhe got hurt by that refrigerator

(40:14):
.
So why would he hurt himself,especially when the Goodens had
no money to offer him toperpetuate a hoax, to offer him
to perpetuate a hoax?
So it's just, I'm finding themotivation for a hoax to be hard
to find and hard to perpetuate.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
I mean, but why a ghost?
Why do you believe it's notjust accidents, therefore it's a
ghost, and not say I keeptugging cheek, bringing up a
Criss Angel style magician whois just having fun for a weekend
, but I don't have anything toback that up.

(40:56):
But the point is, why a ghost?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Because there was no other way to explain it, which I
guess it does sound like a badargument, because everything has
a rational explanation to it,supposedly right, but they
literally went through all ofthe avenues.
The fire department checked thehouse out thoroughly and
checked the house out thoroughly, the construction that was
happening at St Vincent's.
They couldn't attribute that tobeing able to cause entire

(41:23):
refrigerators to move across thefloor or TVs to end up falling
on people's feet.
Right, you eventually reach apoint where you've exhausted all
rational arguments, like theGoodens did, and they were
specifically stated.
Their neighbors said that ifthey could just find one, one
rational explanation, they wouldhave stayed there.
But it really it came down tothe point where it would only be

(41:43):
a supernatural explanation toexplain what happened there, and
at a point where you had 40different trained men and women
that didn't want to go back intothat place.
It's, it's hard, especiallyeven when you had university
seismologists that even ruledout that it couldn't even have
been the tremors that happenedthat week.

(42:04):
So I guess, in my I guess, inmy opinion, it's almost like the
only other thing left was thefact that it was a ghost or a
poltergeist, I guess in thiscase, I.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
I have a third alternative, but before I go
there as a possible, you know,marriage between the physical
and the ghost explanations, didnot want to take away any other
points that you wanted to makeon your end.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
still, All right, so I will give you some ammo.
Fantastic, In the article thatwas all quiet is on Lindley
Street I think that's where Ipicked up on this there was a
report that one of the officerswas actually able to interrogate

(42:53):
Marcia and she actuallyconfessed that everything was a
hoax, that she was moving thingsand she was moving things when
people's backs were turned.
And then it was also reportedthat Laura Gooden herself said
to Marcia I can't believe youdid that.
We could have made so muchmoney off of this.
So there is some ammo for youto use there.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
I mean I do have a response to that.
I mean I mean, no, I respectthe research done and I respect
what you've put forth.
I won't even use that againstyou.
Two reasons.
I don't think Laura said that Ihave, I'm very, I'm very, you
know.
For you know, I'm still tryingto look for non ghost
explanations, but I know Lauradid not want to make a dime off
this.
I will, I will concede thatmuch.

(43:41):
And also, I mean I'm not goingto trust a confession given by a
scared six-year-old girl orwhatever.
You know, and that is not theconditions.
You know, if the especially ifthe officer did the interview
like right there, you know,while the television was
swinging on an unseen pendulum.

(44:02):
You know what I'm saying.
So don't worry, no, neither ofthose.
I think those are noodles thatdo not stick to the wall when
you throw it at them, becauseyeah, I have thrown noodles at
walls to see if they're done.
It's actually a lot more funthan taste testing.
So did you have anything elsethere?

Speaker 2 (44:23):
um, I will say that, like a lot of my argument as to
why something supernatural, youknow, happened on lindley street
largely relies on the fact thatit is almost impossible to
cooperate, you know, to force 40different police officers, who
had their jobs on the line right, to end up being part of a hoax
that could endanger theircareers if they're caught lying.
Um, you know, based on the factthat these were trained

(44:47):
individuals that saw thingshappen, that these were people
that had nothing to gain fromthis being a hoax, um, and the
fact that there was I mean, II'm gonna love to hear your
third alternative but the factthat it seems like everything
rational was thoroughlyinvestigated and yielded no
results, it kind of leaves theonly argument left to be that
something supernatural happened,and Marcia's background does

(45:10):
fit the explanation forsomething that could attract the
you know that could attract apoltergeist, if you will.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah, I do recognize that there is a whole study of
paranormal, you know, and theparanormal investigating
community does have certain, youknow, canon and a set of
knowledge about what they do.
And yeah, no, you've expressedthat throughout, uh, the day

(45:40):
today with, with poltergeist,but uh, but yeah, no, uh, cool,
um, my turn yeah, okay, awesome,you want the coin flip okay,
yeah, yes, that's right.
The third coin flip, orthree-sided coin or whatever.
That is exactly.
Uh, so, uh, so, yeah, so, um,we've been talking about the.
It's just physics, it's justthe atoms of things moving in a

(46:01):
way.
That is an anomaly.
We have been talking thespirits of people past do, in
fact, interact with the worldthat we observe every day, and
that's what was going on.

(46:22):
I'm going to throw somethingthat frankly has its issues and
I will concede the issues asthey come up.
But at the very least, even ifyou don't buy it and I don't
blame you if you do I only spentthree years reflecting on these
, but don't worry, I won't takethat too personally.
Yeah, this is how I spend myfree time thinking about these

(46:45):
things and yeah, no, so at thevery least, give you a notion of
you don't always have to go tosomething like ghosts if you're
convinced of not physical, andI'm going to reach out to the
human mind and the powers of thehuman mind.
The human mind is much vasterand much more powerful, in my

(47:09):
opinion, than we give it creditfor.
No, I'm not going to talk about, like cheese, telekinesis or
anything here.
I'm not going to talk aboutbending spoons without using
your hands to physically bendthem.
I'm going to talk about how Ifeel.
You know, in the world aroundus the mind interacts with

(47:30):
physical things and that one ofthe more unfortunate takeaways
from our legacy of science isthat we have separated very
severely the mind from the body,and I think that's a big shame
and inaccurate.
So you know my thoughts on themind and, forgive me, I have to

(47:54):
give a little background beforeI can apply it to the events on
Lindley Street.
Forgive me, I have to give alittle background before I can
apply it to the events onLindley Street.
I was brought up to believe that, as many of us were, that the
subconscious is this sort ofdisgusting cesspool of dark just
not doing anything particularlyconstructive.

(48:16):
And then our consciousnessdescends upon the subconscious.
I don't even like the termsubconscious because it implies
it's less than the conscious mysubconscious is.
Over time has produced entirestories and well-made intuitions

(48:39):
, and then my conscious justkind of looks at these
inspirations and goes, yeah,that's good.
So I'm really convinced thatour conscious is a very, very,
very small part of our mind andthat the rest of our mental
stuff is actually quite vast,that the rest of our mental
stuff is actually quite vast,and I will tie in why that's

(48:59):
relevant in a moment.
The other bit that has to bethrown out there is why I
believe that a mind exists inthe first place, why we have
minds, and it goes back to thecreation of the first cell.
So Darwinian evolution is afantastic theory.

(49:22):
It's one of the more successfulscientific endeavors that has
ever happened.
One of the big jumps thoughagain it's another matter of
explanations, having a hard partto swallow is how the first
cell was made.
Right, there is a great I'veheard this anecdotally there is

(49:43):
a greater chance that a twistergoing through a junkyard will
assemble a perfectly functioningtruck than there is that the
first cell was made.
And this is I'll note theobjections in a moment.
I feel that the first cell wasmade when some physical stuff

(50:06):
came into interaction,interacted with some orderly
stuff, and they came together.
So there was physical stuff andorderly stuff.
There was physical stuff andorderly stuff.
And you know, when the cellevolved, the physical stuff

(50:27):
improved and the orderly stuffimproved, and the physical stuff
became bodies and the orderlystuff became minds.
So obviously there's somerefutations.
You can make one.
You could say well, in auniverse it's possible that the
twister did just make the Jeep.
And the other point you couldmake is where did you get this
orderliness from?
And those are both legitimaterefutations.

(50:50):
But if you do accept thosepoints, then what we have here,
and from my point that the mindis very vast from before, what
we have here are some veryimportant points.
One, the mind and the body arevery interconnected, right.
In fact, we can abstractlythink of them as different

(51:11):
things, but they never exist asdifferent things, right?
So not only can the mindinteract whenever physical
things act, it must.
Every action is a physical anda mental action.
However, this also brings up,because orderliness and
physicalness are conceptuallydifferent things, even though in

(51:33):
nature they can't bedistinguished, it means that
they have some meaningfuldifferences and act in
meaningfully different ways.
And then when you combine therethat orderliness which is just,
you know, is one example oforderliness is the mind.
The mind is vast and powerful.
So you have something that actswith the physical, acts

(51:56):
differently than the physicaland is vast and powerful.
And I think for those threequalities it could have been
mental stuff that was causingthe Lindley Street phenomenon,
right.
Phenomenon right, it was notper se the soul of a human being

(52:26):
that was conscious, but just ananomaly caused by mental stuff,
and there are some issues withthat.
But I would like to hearAndre's issues with that to
begin with.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
So what you did is that you perfectly described the
evolution of how we have a mind.
All of those things are notmutually exclusive with the
existence of a soul or anexistence of something that must
originate from another universe.
You know, not another universe,but like another, another plane
of existence.

(52:56):
Right, at the end of the day,the way that the mind interacts
with the physical world, right,we have ways that we can
interpret the things that wewitness.
Right, like, if I have theseunconscious biases that you know
, I might have been somebodyraised in a family that was very
supernatural in nature.
Sure, I might look at whathappened at Lindley Street as

(53:20):
being supernatural in nature.
That it was caused by a ghost,I can agree to that.
The issue here is that we hadtons and tons and tons of
different people that all camefrom different backgrounds,
different trainings, that stillsaw these physical
manifestations and, at the endof the day, all came to the same

(53:41):
conclusion, right?

Speaker 1 (53:43):
So Trevor Burrus Jr.
But I'm saying that, like themental stuff can interact with
the physical world, just likethe ghosts you're talking about
would interact with the physicalworld, if you catch my drift
there, trevor Burrus.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Jr In a way that that would have moved a refrigerator
off the ground.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Okay, and you bring up one of the points that's
still an issue with my model,which is right now.
I'm basically saying becausethis mind, this deep, powerful,
enacting with physical parts,mind is powerful, it can do

(54:21):
anything I want it to.
And so, yeah, no, I cannotdefend you to today why or how
it would move a refrigerator.
I'm just saying that for me,it's less of a jump to say the
human mind, which we know exists, you know, indubitably, because
we have one, you know, somehowmanifested itself in the

(54:45):
physical realm, to do this, Ithink that's just a little bit
less of a jump than a deadperson came back.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
I think you're correct, that wouldn't be a
terrible jump if it was justlimited to even just the three
people in the good ends, but thefact that we're talking about
there were eyewitnesstestimonies from all kinds of
different people, you know, andthey all still saw the same
thing.
Right, because I think we canconcede that every mind is

(55:12):
different, everybody hasdifferent personalities,
everybody has differentstrengths and weaknesses, right,
I'd?

Speaker 1 (55:17):
even say the experience of consciousness
differs from person to personyes.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
So the more and more people that you have that saw
the same thing, then the moreand more I feel less reliable
that argument makes.
Because if we can concede thatminds are differences and even
the ways that we experience inconsciousness are differences,
but yet everybody still saw thesame thing, then I think the
argument becomes diluted in away.
Now I think what you could make,the argument you could make,

(55:45):
was that we're all 40 people inthe same room at the same time
that saw the same phenomenahappen.
No, they weren't, and even Halleven demonstrates in his books
that at a time there might haveonly been maybe a few handful of
people in the same rooms, right, so I think maybe your argument
could be more strained thanthere.
But the fact that we have allof these different eyewitness
testimonies that were coming tothe same conclusion, I think it

(56:10):
definitely at least gives weightto the argument that something
more supernatural in naturehappened there.
Now, whether or not that mighthave been, like you say, the
mind's way of explaining thesephenomena in a way that
satisfies it, or if it wassomething supernatural in nature
, I think that at least thesupernatural case becomes

(56:31):
strengthened because more andmore people experienced the same
phenomena.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Okay, well, actually, I thank you're very much there.
I don't have a reply to that.
I will reflect on the notion ofif people's minds are
fundamentally different andthere's a situation where the

(56:57):
mind is directly causingphysical things to occur,
wouldn't the presence of lots ofminds actually cause things
that are?
Not that they missaw the sameaction, but to them the action
was actually different.
So I thank you very much forthat.

(57:20):
And yeah, no, this has been agreat podcast.
It's given me two things.
One, it's given me something tothink about, and I thank you
very much for it, and the otherone is I got to play with sound
effects.
I bet you didn't see thatcoming, did you?

(57:42):
No, no, I didn't think so.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
Although I guess could I make a quick point, oh,
of course, yeah, no.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
I think, okay.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Actually, though, now that I've actually thought
about it, I mentioned earlierthat the Exorcist did come out a
few years before the Goodenshappened, so I did make a whole
spiel about like how we allexperience things differently,
because we all have different,because we've all lived life and
become formed by life indifferent ways.

(58:11):
That might actually lead somecredibility to your argument
then, because then they mighthave had their mind interact
with the physical in a way thatwould then, theoretically, 40
people could have seen a ghost,or attributed it to a ghost,
moving furniture around ofdifferent angles that you can

(58:31):
approach what happened atLindley Street from, and the
whole purpose of this podcastwas just to present all of the
facts and all the research thatwe've done in a way that can let
you, the audience, form yourown opinion as to what did
happen there.
You know we both have differentopinions on what happened.

(58:53):
Neither of them are wrong.
The most important thing, atleast from my perspective, is
that we've given you all thetools that you can now do your
own research and come to yourown conclusion about what
happened in Lindley Street, andreally that's our job as
librarians.
That's why I enjoy my job.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Yes, we gave you all that.
We had that ourselves and alsowe did.
One other really cool thing Ithink that we did is that we
very much care about ourpositions but at the same time I
don't know, Andre, to me thatseemed like that was a pretty
respectful, dignified debate andI don't know, I think certain

(59:35):
people in this nation would dowell to follow our example.
Yeah, so this is a good, sizablepodcast.
But before we head out, andre,remind the folks where they can
go, please, to sign up to usethis podcast studio and film
their own podcast.
And film their own podcast.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
So if you visit our website wwwbportlibraryorg,
under the services option on thewebsite there will be a section
called podcast studio, and Iwant to give a shout out to the
Beardsley branch manager, annaNaworowska.
She did a wonderful jobcreating that page and giving
you one of these sound effects.

(01:00:24):
I'm going to do it again.
I'm going to do it again.
She did a wonderful job puttingtogether all of the relevant
information, including ourpolicies, terms of use, and
posting the first episode ofthis wonderful podcast on the
website so you can look at therefor some more information.
Sometime in the future we'llhave a way to directly make an
online reservation for thestudio, but for now, if you want

(01:00:46):
to reserve our studios, you cancall 203-332-0025, and I would
be happy to give you moreinformation about some of the
classes you could attend, orhelp you find the informational
video that our Adam actuallymade for us, and then you'll be
able to reserve a studio thatway.
Or you can email me at amassaA-M-A-S-S-A at

(01:01:09):
bridgeportpubliclibraryorg.
I know it's a mouthful, trustme, but you can email me there
and I'd be happy to give yousome more information.
But as of right now, thesestudios are at least this studio
that we're recording in is opento the public, and we would
love to see you here, createyour own podcast and share your

(01:01:30):
passions with the world.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
So absolutely fantastic, and I will make sure
that you know phone numbers andemail addresses and all that
jazz ends up in the description,uh, so you don't have to.
You know, replay the same threeseconds of the podcast over and
over again to get them.
You have anything else for me,andre?

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
um, why did I take the tires off my car?
I don't know why did you takethe tires off the car.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
I don't know why did you take the tires off the car?

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
So I can drive around tirelessly.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
Wonderful.
Yeah, I'm so happy, I'm sohappy I gave you that book.
It's just the gift that keepson giving.
Okay, cool.
Yeah, I'm going to assume thatwas your last thing.
And now everyone join us againnext month for another episode
of Bridgeport Unmasked, thepodcast series about all things

(01:02:25):
Bridgeport, connecticut.
I'm Adam Cleary of BridgeportPublic Library.
This is my fellow Bridgeportlibrarian, andre Massa, and
we'll hope that you tune in tothe next episode about the Park
City.