January 6, 2025 • 41 mins
Join us as we chat with Dr. Melissa Arcand, a passionate advocate for sustainable land management and a leading researcher for the Bridge to Land Water Sky Living Lab. Dr. Arcand, a member of Muskeg Lake Cree Nation, shares her journey from a farming family to her role as a soil scientist at the University of Saskatchewan. We explore her work with Bridge to Land Water Sky, where she connects diverse stakeholders and translates complex research into culturally relevant dialogues. Dr. Arcand discusses the unique climate challenges of Treaty 6 and the empowering potential of sustainable farming practices. This episode illustrates the powerful convergence of Indigenous knowledge, Western science, and modern agricultural practices, focusing on sustainability, relationship-building, and innovative solutions. Tune in to discover how Indigenous communities are reclaiming control over their lands and leading the way towards a more inclusive and resilient future through transformative agricultural research.
The Bridge to Land Water Sky living lab is part of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada’s nationwide network of living labs, under the Agricultural Climate Solutions – Living Labs program. Each living lab brings together farmers, scientists and other partners to develop and improve on-farm solutions that will help store carbon, reduce greenhouse gas emissions and address other environmental issues – such as soil health, water quality and biodiversity.
Hosted by: Michelle Brass
Produced by: Maddie Gould
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast.
I'm your host, michelle Brass.
Here we dive into diverseperspectives on agriculture and
land management, blendingWestern science and farmer
expertise with Indigenousknowledge and wisdom.
Together we can addresschallenges and opportunities
that enhance agriculturalpractices to support healthy
(00:29):
land, water and sky for futuregenerations.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey.
I'm very excited about today'sepisode.
We're going to hear from DrMelissa Arcand from the Pskig
Lake Cree Nation.
She's an associate professor inthe Department of Soil Science
at the University ofSaskatchewan.
(00:50):
She also teaches in the KanaweTe Tan Aski Certificate Program,
which translates to let's TakeCare of the Land in Plains Cree.
Most of Dr Arcand's researchwork is centered around
agricultural sustainability andland management and
understanding how soil respondsto various agricultural
practices.
Dr Arcand also does a lot ofpartnership work with First
(01:11):
Nations and Indigenousorganizations in areas regarding
land management, agriculturalinitiatives and buffalo
initiatives, and she brings anIndigenous worldview and lived
experiences into her work.
Dr Arcand is one of theresearch co-leads for Bridge to
Land Water Sky and she's here totell us more about her work
with this project.
Hi Dr Arcand, hi Michelle.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Thanks for doing this with me.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yes, I'm really excited for today's episode and
to hear about the work thatyou're doing and what you bring
to this research project.
So tell me a bit about yourselfand how you got into your work,
where are you from and whatbrought you here.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I think my work really was born out of first an
interest in the environment,actually.
So I grew up on Muskeg Lake andmy parents were farmers and my
grandparents were gardeners werefarmers and my grandparents
were gardeners, and so, growingup, just the day-to-day life was
(02:10):
helping my grandparents in thegarden my mom, you know, being
sort of a gopher for my dadhelping shuttle things back and
forth while he was farming.
And then, at the same time,when I was a pretty young person
in Muskeg, we got toparticipate in a lot of cultural
camps and also had opportunitynot just like within the
(02:31):
community, but even within myelementary school.
There was a lot of culturalteachings that were shared, and
so I really got interested inour relationship to the land,
even when I was really quitelittle.
And then throughout my highschool time period, I was really
interested in science, and sowhen it came time to think about
(02:53):
you know what I might do, and Iknew that I wanted to go to
university thinking about whereI might actually land I started
thinking about environment andenvironmental science, and so I
ended up starting out at theUniversity of Saskatchewan in
the College of Arts and Science,and then ended up moving to
(03:16):
Guelph, ontario, to go to theuniversity there because they
had a pretty comprehensiveenvironmental science program,
and so that's how I kind of goton my academic path and my
interest in soils.
But my interest in agricultureactually didn't happen until I
was about a year into being atGuelph and I was able to get a
(03:38):
summer job with a soil scienceprofessor there at the
university and through thatsummer job I actually got
introduced to soils and alsoreconnected me to agriculture,
because all of the research workthat I was helping with was in
an agricultural context but insouthwestern Ontario.
But it made me think about home.
(03:59):
Actually, you know, seeing whata landscape looks like, seeing
what a landscape looks like,seeing what a field looks like
and what the soil looks like insouthwestern Ontario only made
me compare with what I hadexperienced back home and
actually made me more interestedto understand what home was
like.
And yeah, that kind of that waslike the initial introduction
(04:25):
to to soil science, toagriculture in like an academic
sense and and really thinkingabout what we do in terms of
decision-making um influence howthe soil responds.
But then also, in turn, how dosort of the inherent
characteristics of a soil andwithin a landscape and a
particular climate, really guidewhat is good activity and good
(04:49):
practice.
So, yeah, that was that'sreally how I just started out.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, Wow, I love that.
I love all the components thatthat led you down this path.
So how long have you been doingthis work?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
My official title or the job that I have.
I've been doing for nine yearsnow, but I mean, as a prof, it
takes a long time to get here.
So I mean, really it started,you know, undergrad, master's
degree, PhD so it's been over 20years, I'd say, since I had
that first summer job.
(05:25):
Yeah, actually that was I'mdating myself now.
That was probably like 23, 23years ago or so.
So, yeah, it's been a longjourney, but I enjoy that.
Now, in the position that Ihave, I have a lot of freedom to
explore a lot of things thatare of interest to me, and so
it's a really privilegedposition to be able to be a
(05:48):
professor and be able tointeract with students and
pursue really interestingresearch questions.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well, and speaking of what brought you to Bridge, to
Land, water, sky, what broughtyou to the work that you're
doing here?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
today.
It was the team of people andthe friendships and the
relationships that brought notjust me together but I for Mr
Wasis Nehewak at the time, andthen some of the relationships
(06:29):
that he had with otherorganizations, as well as other
researchers and kind ofindividuals in the environment
and agriculture spaces, and soit really was, I think, a
collection of people thatgravitated, you know, and I
think Anthony was really theinitial literal and figurative
(06:53):
bridge builder that brought ustogether to actually start
working on the bridge project.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And tell me about your role with the bridge
project and what you're doingwith it today.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I feel like I have a few roles.
So one of the I guess theprimary role is being one of the
researchers.
So there's both facultyresearchers through the
University of Saskatchewan, butthen also research scientists
through Agriculture, agri-food,canada, and so I'm one of many
(07:25):
that are really working towardslooking at what are some of the
biophysical aspects that we'retrying to measure and see some
kind of response to a change inagricultural management
practices.
But then there's also otherfolks as part of the team that
(07:47):
are looking at the social andcultural dimensions of these
agricultural systems within bothMistawasis and Muskeg Lake and,
even more broadly, across otherFirst Nations, but also
agricultural producers in theregion, and so, yeah, so part of
my role is being one of thoseresearchers and getting out onto
the land with a team of people.
(08:08):
Because I'm a soil scientist, myresearch work is focused on
looking at soils and especiallysoil, carbon and some of the
microbial or biological aspectsof soils as well as well.
And so, yes, I wear my researchhat, but I think I also wear a
(08:29):
hat that is a bit moremultifaceted, in the sense of
number one.
I'm a Muskeg Lake communitymember, and so oftentimes I
think I end up being atranslator between the
researchers, because I know thatlanguage, and then also with
the folks that are non-academics.
So whether that's, you know,with the lands department people
(08:51):
within both nations, or whetherthat's talking to our other
non-academic NGO partners, youknow especially, yes, I have the
research language, but I alsounderstand some of the more
complicated cultural nuances orFirst Nations land policy
(09:12):
nuances that you know.
Sort of many of our researchcolleagues and non-profit NGO
colleagues don't sort of knowthat that language.
So I'm often, I think, atranslator between academics and
NGOs with with the nations andthen and vice versa.
So that's my unofficial hat, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Well, it sounds like you're also a bridge yourself
within the bridge right with,with bridging those different
areas that you just mentioned.
So how important is that to beable to do that in this project,
to be able to move between somany different people and
organizations that arecollaborating on this how
important is it to be able to bethat bridge or that translator?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I think it's critical and I'm not the only one, you
know there's, there's many of uson the team that do serve that,
that really important role oftranslating across, whether it's
disciplines or whether it'ssectors or or even across
community.
I think it's really criticaland I think that's probably one
(10:18):
of the, I'd say, biggest uniquebenefits that this particular
living lab might have over otherliving labs, because we're
bridging not just communicationbetween researchers and farmers,
but we're also bridging betweenresearchers, farmers, first
Nations and all of thosepermutations of those
(10:38):
communication channels.
And I think that's where wehave the greatest opportunity to
provide impact, because we'reable to be that channel for
information, for perspective,for stories to be shared to
listeners and ears thatotherwise would never have heard
those stories.
And that goes in all directions.
(11:00):
You know, many researchers haveno idea about the day-to-day
situation within First Nationsbroadly, but also really
specifically as it pertains toland management policies that
are involved at the nation level, at the decision-making level,
let alone even what might be atthe community level.
(11:22):
So you know not the staff, notthe chief and council, but
community members and what theirinterests are, what their
priorities are.
So being able to share thoseperspectives is one thing.
Another, I think, importantperspective is that for a lot of
individuals in the generalpublic, but also in First
Nations, we don't have a reallygood understanding of
(11:44):
agriculture and the day-to-dayof decision-making that farmers
are undertaking, and so theother way that we're trying to
facilitate communication andinformation and sharing of
perspective is you know what arethe decisions that farmers are
making and why, so that peoplecan have a better understanding
of just what some of thoseissues are, some of those
(12:05):
constraints might be, and wherethere might actually be a common
ground among people.
So I think it's been a reallycritical piece and I think
that's where a lot of our workhas really centered in is that
communication among all of thedifferent individuals,
organizations, rights holders,individuals, organizations,
rights holders, stakeholdersacross the board.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Well, and I'm just thinking how wonderful it must
be to be able to do this workfor your own community, like to
come from Muskeg Lake, be amember and do the work that you
do as a soil scientist, assomebody who can be a translator
and bridge all these differentareas, but is it meaningful for
you to be able to do this workon behalf of your home community
?
We might be working in ourindustries, or you know our area
(12:53):
of expertise, but not be ableto do it specifically for our
own community.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, it's really.
It's really nice actually, andit's nice to be able to, as part
of the work, we've been able totour the lands and, you know,
being able to see parts of myown community that I had never
seen otherwise and visit withsome of my relatives and other
community members and talk aboutthe land and talk about the
(13:18):
history of the land and and evenabout what we're wanting for
the future of the land.
So that's been yeah, it's beenreally rewarding.
It makes it definitely morecomplicated, I think.
In some respects too, andespecially you as a researcher
we're usually working a littlebit more removed from day to day
(13:39):
, and so that's something that Ihave to navigate and manage and
just try to remain objective.
But the work is inherentlyvalue driven, and so I can't
detach my humanness or mypersonhood to the work.
You know what I mean, of course.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, right, and I was just thinking as I asked
that question too, I thought,well, how wonderful, but also
how challenging too, becausethere are challenges too when
working with your own communityas Indigenous peoples in various
capacities, right.
So there's many layers andnuances to to the work,
sometimes into the relationshipsand interconnectedness that we,
(14:19):
that we deal with on aday-to-day basis.
So so tell me a bit about theresearch specifically that you
are doing with bridge to land,water, sky.
What are some of the challengesthat you're looking at?
What?
What are some of the areas ofresearch that you're doing right
now?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
so the program itself is geared towards greenhouse
gas mitigation, so that's thecentral focus on our activities
and certainly any kind ofresearch metrics that we might
be looking at.
So there's a couple of thingsthat are steering our research.
Number one this project ismeant to be a co-developed
(14:56):
project, so any kind ofimplementation of a new practice
that we want to trial is reallygeared towards being
co-developed with the producer,but then also with the added
layer of suggesting potentialpractices that the community
wants, and so it's layered inthat sense, and so we're really
(15:19):
kind of meant to follow alongwith whatever ends up being
implemented.
Then we as researchers have tofind a way to be able to measure
the potential effect of theimplementation of whatever that
land practice might be oragricultural practice might be,
or even collection of practicesmight be.
So, as an example, a few of theland practices or ag practices
(15:42):
that have been trialed out isaround looking at enhanced
efficiency nitrogen fertilizersand looking at variable rate
nitrogen fertilizer application,because there's a lot of
research out there thatindicates that that is a good
strategy to reduce nitrous oxideemissions, and nitrous oxide is
a really potent greenhouse gasand an important target for
(16:05):
greenhouse gas mitigation, andso we had to work with the
farmer first.
To, number one, talk to themand say, well, do you have the
technology in your farmequipment to even implement
variable rate?
And okay, yeah, you do, great,okay, we're one step closer.
But then, number two do youknow how to use that technology?
(16:28):
Okay, you know some learningthat had to happen there.
Great, implemented.
But it's sort of thismulti-layered step of getting to
the point where we'reimplementing something.
So that is really differentfrom a lot of the typical
research work that I would do,which is under much more
controlled conditions, where I'mdetermining what the treatments
(16:52):
are that we're going to testand we make sure that we've got
those research plots allreplicated.
You know we're able to have areally robust statistical
approach to, you know,deciphering whether or not the
effect of our treatment cantruly be attributed to that
(17:13):
treatment or if it's justenvironmental noise that's
contributing to our results.
So the living lab approach is alot different because we don't
have that same opportunity tohave, you know, huge replication
of our experiments, and so wereally rely on looking at what
was the environment like beforewe implemented this practice and
(17:34):
then going back after it's beenimplemented and measuring those
things again and saying, okay,we've seen a response.
So that's been, in large part,the approach that we've had to
take.
And then, for me, I've beenworking with my colleagues from
Ag Canada.
We're really focused on lookingat soil carbon.
We're looking at microbialcommunities because they're
(17:56):
really important in driving someof these processes that either
help to store carbon or thathelp to reduce N2O emissions,
and my colleagues at Ag Canadahave been collecting greenhouse
gas data over the course of thewhole growing season to look at
the effects of these differentpractices and to see if they
(18:16):
reduce N2O emissions.
So, yeah, that's, I guess, along, long story to say that
it's a lot different than mostresearch approaches, because
we're working in a real lifeworking farm with real life
farmers and not just one farmand not just one farmer, but
multiple farmers on multipledifferent fields, and so
(18:39):
everything that we do is muchmore tailored to that specific
farmer, to that specific field.
We're kind of treating fieldslike individuals, and so we're
really tailoring what we thinkwould have the potential
greatest impact.
So it is a lot different than alot of the other research that
I've done.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, it sounds fascinating.
I love this real-world approach, or this living lab approach,
and learning more about it.
What are you learning fromdoing this research in this
different environment?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
My learning has less to do about the soil science and
the biophysical and morelearning about value systems
that people have and thatdifferent groups have and then
trying to sort of come to where.
Where do we have those sharedvalues?
What do we need to do togetherto work towards a common goal?
(19:31):
So I think that has been themost interesting part of this
work is trying to understandwhat are those decision-making
processes for any person whoultimately is going to decide
what happens on the land.
So, whether that's a farmer,whether that's a lands
department, whether that's chiefand council, whether that's
(19:53):
what the community members aresaying to chief and council,
that's where I find know whatthe community members are saying
to chief and council, that'swhere I find we're learning the
most and, I think, where wehopefully can be able to share
that that learning outward, sothat it's not just going to be
beneficial to the twocommunities that we're working
with but hopefully to otherFirst Nations and other parts of
the agricultural sector as well.
So, yeah, I think what I'mfinding most fascinating is more
(20:15):
of the social and cultural sideof the agricultural sector as
well.
So, yeah, I think what I'mfinding most fascinating is more
of the social and cultural sideof things.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Of course.
Well, and I'm so fascinated bythis entire project, with all of
the different organizations andgroups working together because
of everything that you've justoutlined right Just the
different world views, thedifferent work experiences and
values, the different livedexperiences, the different
historical advantages anddisadvantages, and access to
lands or not having access, likethere's so many things.
(20:41):
So I think it's wonderfulYou've outlined some of the
research challenges of it beingdifferent, being in a real world
space.
Have there been challengesrelated to the different
worldviews and into how toapproach or what to test or what
to look at, how to interpretsome of the findings?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I mean honestly .
I think probably one of thebiggest challenges when I put my
researcher hat on is that thepace at which things happen,
whether it's the university orwhether it's in government, is
very fast, very productivity,outcome oriented.
But our project is aboutrelationships, and relationships
(21:23):
take time to build trust, todevelop that friendship, to
develop that respect, even ifthe goal isn't to be friends,
but the goal is to be respectfulof each other.
So I think, even seeing some ofmy colleagues who are new to
this process start to learn andunderstand we're not going to
move at the same pace that wewould in other projects because
(21:46):
in order for anything to getdone we have to have that
relationship piece in place andwithout that, it doesn't matter
how many things we want tomeasure, they're not going to
let us measure it.
So you need that relationshipand trust before we can even try
anything.
So I think, just understandthat you know the challenge is
letting go of what we're used toin terms of pace and sort of
(22:10):
immediate gratification.
You know this is like.
Over time we have to build thisso that the long term goal can
be achieved.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
So tell me a little bit, too, about just bringing
different perspectives to thiswork and we'll talk about the
soil science and I definitelywant to delve into that but just
touching on the relationshipbuilding and the time it takes
also bringing in those differentperspectives and worldviews
when it comes to Indigenousknowledge and science and
different ways of quantifying orof putting value to land and
(22:42):
output, can you just tell me alittle bit about how that looks
for you, or how are you oftenmaybe bridging Indigenous
knowledge with Westernworldviews on science and how we
move forward with a projectlike this?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Probably one of the ways that we do that as a
project, or what's been reallyconsistent within our project,
isn't necessarily like contentin terms of knowledge or
worldview, but it's more so interms of process.
So it's more so, you know, westart our meetings with a prayer
(23:14):
.
The whole project was initiatedofficially through a pipe
ceremony, so it's some of thesemore protocol and cultural
processes that are in play andthat we've learned to really
trust in guiding the work, andso I think a lot of our
colleagues who weren't used tothat have become used to that.
(23:36):
That's just part of the processnow, and so I think that has
probably been some of the thebiggest ways that the difference
in worldview and difference inperspective has manifested in
our day-to-day ways of workingwith each other and and working,
you know, not just as a teambut when we're interacting with
other folks outside of our team.
That's been really central.
(23:58):
So just the process that weeven conduct meetings is very
different than a lot of others.
So everyone has a chance tospeak and everyone has a time
that they are offered the floor.
So I think that's been reallydifferent.
We're still in the learningprocess because I think one of
the things, at least for mepersonally I can't speak for
(24:18):
other Indigenous people is thatthe huge disconnect between what
would have been, you know,traditional practices or even
ways in which we would havemonitored our own lands, just
naturally.
I don't have that knowledge, youknow, because we were so
disconnected from ithistorically.
(24:39):
And so I think, where there'sopportunity to just be on the
land together, I think some ofthat happens naturally.
But I've often hadnon-Indigenous people ask me
well, what's the practice,what's the thing that we can do
that's indigenous, that we canjust implement and it's going to
be, you know, the thing thatwill save us.
(25:00):
And it's like well, no, it'snot about like the one practice
or the one thing that we canthen just adopt into western
ways of doing, it's the whole.
Like I said again, process isthe whole approach to it, it's
the values.
It's not like necessarily thephysical, tangible thing.
I mean, I think that's part ofit, but it's not necessarily
(25:22):
what drives change or whatdrives the worldview.
So, for me personally, I'm just,I'm learning a lot.
I'm learning a lot from otherIndigenous people who have those
cultural teachings, who havethose understandings of even
what our traditional food wouldhave been, because, again, you
know, it's been multiplegenerations where we haven't
been able to harvest foods inthe way that we used to harvest
(25:45):
them on the prairies.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So yeah, yeah, Well, and I kind of smiled a bit when
you said, right, like you know,having colleagues or other
co-workers say, like what wouldbe the practice and how do we
just plug this in?
And you know, I've noticed, inthe work that I've done over the
years too, that, yeah, there isthis interest in learning more
and integrating it, butintegrating it kind of into the
(26:06):
dominant worldview as opposed toreally understanding.
And there's a growingunderstanding and awareness, I'm
finding, which I'm grateful for, of that it's a different way
completely and a differentapproach and a different pace
and tempo.
And it takes time and, like yousaid, being disconnected from a
lot of those practices becauseof the various impacts of
(26:28):
colonization, being separatedfrom our communities and our
families and having thatknowledge taken and it takes
time.
It takes time and protocols andyou know, and we have a lot
happening in our communities andfamilies to look after and so
it's not always easy to just goin and pick it all up and it's
being done, People are doingthat work, but it takes a lot of
(26:51):
intention, time and, like yousaid, that prayer, that pipe
ceremony, the protocols, that itis a different pace.
So yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
It is kind of funny, though, because I have had lots
of times people ask me I'm likewe're not just hoarding these
practices right Like no.
I mean, if it was as easy asplug and play, we would have
already done that.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Right, exactly, yeah.
If it was as easy as plug andplay, we would have already done
that, right, exactly, yeah.
But I just love that there isan entire project that is
working on and there's otherstoo, right, but we're talking
about this one in particularthat is doing that real work, to
integrate it, to do realscience and research in an
Indigenous-led living lab, toalso integrate these different
worldviews and pace in therelationship building.
(27:36):
So I just I think the workthat's being done there is just
fascinating.
So tell me a bit about yourrole, the hat you wear as a soil
scientist, because I'm thinkingspecifically about the Sixth
Territory, thinking about thisparticular region.
You know farming is differentin various areas across North
(27:58):
America and I'm sure there'slots of solutions being
suggested regarding how toreduce.
You know emissions when itcomes to farming practices and
you know best managementpractices, what's what's
specific to this region, andthen the role that soil plays,
which practices or whatsolutions you might look at
exploring more.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think there's a few things.
Well, I think one of the coolthings about this region is that
we're a semi-arid climate.
We got cold winters, we have areally short growing season, so
that offers a lot of challenges.
Short growing season, so thatoffers a lot of challenges.
(28:38):
It means that some of thepractices that maybe are pretty
well adapted in other regionswhere they've got more moisture,
they've got longer growingseasons, they're able to
implement.
You know, one of the bigexamples that is often provided
as an important regenerative eggpractice is the use of cover
crops.
As an important regenerativeegg practice is the use of cover
crops and I think it's a reallygood potential practice that
(28:59):
could help.
You know it extends basicallythe length of time that there is
a living plant that is in thesoil that's interacting with the
soil through its root systems,through, you know, any of the
above ground residue that getsto contribute to organic matter.
That's all great in theory butthere's challenges in practice.
(29:20):
In our climate, our growingseasons aren't that long and you
know for farmers to finishharvesting their cash crop in
September and sometimes you knowharvest can go to October and
then for them to turn around andseed another crop and then for
that crop to be able to actuallygerminate and establish well
(29:42):
enough to build enough biomassbefore it freezes.
That's a really tight window oftime, and so I think that's a
challenge.
Where I'm sort of interested inthat might be even just
low-hanging fruit is looking atsome of our marginal lands.
So sadly the reality is in allthe First Nations there's a
(30:04):
higher proportion of land thatis marginal for crop production.
So I don't even necessarilylike that term marginal, but we
use it, but marginal to annualcrop production.
And so this might be areaswhere the soil is just lighter
in texture, so it's just sandier, which means it's a little bit
more prone to erosion.
(30:24):
Or there might be parts of thefield that is maybe subject to
salinity issues, and you know,there's these sort of natural
attributes of the land and thesoil that just makes it not
great for growing crops.
Well, can we maybe not growcrops there?
How about instead we grow somesort of perennial vegetation,
(30:46):
maybe even at the most idealside of things, we grow a
diverse native prairie?
Christy Morrissey, who's one ofour research co-leads within the
BRIDGE project, has anotherproject that's a sister or
partner project to the BRIDGE,looking specifically at
identifying marginal lands andthen looking at strategies to
(31:08):
improve those lands by puttingsome kind of perennial cover,
and that increases not onlypotential for there to be
greater carbon inputs, becausethere's better plant community
establishment, but that alsoinjects greater biodiversity
into those landscapes.
So you know, and parts of thefield aren't making the farmer
(31:29):
any money anyway Can they beused to garner these other, you
know, environmental benefits.
So that, I feel, is a littlebit more low hanging fruit.
But it's still very difficultto identify where those marginal
areas are.
I mean, a lot of farmers theyknow their land really well and
they can say, oh yeah, we knowover here it doesn't produce
(31:52):
really well.
But it still takes somedecision-making to some
understanding about what doesthat mean if we're going to stop
farming that land and dosomething else.
So it's still an input cost,it's still a decision to be made
, it's still a time cost to makethat change.
(32:13):
But I think it's a good waythat we can maybe start.
So I mean so, whether that'sshelter belts, whether that's
riparian areas around wetlands,looking at, can we have a bigger
buffer between our wetland andwhere the farmer is actually
(32:37):
growing a crop?
And then can we look at, youknow, if we are to improve
riparian areas, what is theimpact of that on soil?
Carbon or N2O emissions?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So how long does it take to?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
find results.
That's the trickiest thing.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, that's definitely the biggest challenge
, because a lot of what we wantto show, or what we would hope
our intervention might improve,actually takes a long time.
So soil carbon, for example, ifthere's a really big change, it
might take eight to 10 years toactually show a measurable
change of any given practice,and so we don't have a lot of
(33:21):
time within a five-year projectand where we're working with
farmers, so you know, we're notimplementing any kind of change
immediately.
It's taking two or three yearsto even figure out what the
farmer might be game to try, andso instead, what we have to do
to a certain extent is look atother metrics that might be
(33:44):
indicators to where change mightbe eventually.
So, for example, if we'relooking at soil carbon and we
want to increase overall carbonstocks because that's truly what
soil carbon sequestration wouldbe is can we look at some of
the processes that are a bitmore responsive, that lead to
(34:04):
improved carbon storage, thatlead to persistence of carbon in
soil, so that the carbon's notlost through microbial
respiration?
So there's sort of ways that wecan look at these other
indicators that might help us topredict where that carbon might
be in 8 to 10 years, 20 yearsdown the line.
And then we're also working withother researchers who actually
(34:28):
model greenhouse gas emissionsso they can input known
parameters that we can get byworking with our producers to
input into the model and thenpredict what those changes in
practices or the inputs that areused on the farm scale to
(34:48):
predict what greenhouse gasemissions would look like.
So there's a little bit ofmodeling that's going to be
involved in this project as well.
But yeah, it is a challenge, Imean, and honestly what I would
hope is that this work extendsbeyond the length of this
particular project.
There's been indication thatthis program might prolong for
(35:10):
another five years.
We'll see what happens afterthe next election, but you know,
I'm hoping that this would leadto opportunities to extend the
work so that we can actually goback and measure carbon 10 years
from now and see if there'sbeen a change.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Well, I imagine, with all of the work that you and
others are putting into it andthe relationships that are being
built, that there is a desireto keep doing this work and
exploring and researching andfinding out and looking for
solutions to a lot of thechallenges that we're facing.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
What are you hopeful about?
What guides you the most, aboutthe work you're doing with this
?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
That just the story gets out, that people get
interested, that people learnsomething.
I'm especially excited aboutbeing able to work with other
First Nations and sharing whatwe learn from this project to
other communities so that theycan, you know, maybe even adapt
some of what we're doing totheir own situation.
(36:06):
One of the things that we'vebeen talking a lot about that
we're hoping we can make someheadway on is that a lot of the
First Nations land is actuallyleased out to farmers that are
not First Nations.
They don't live within thecommunity.
They might be neighboringfarmers, but they're not
community members, and so one ofthe things that we're really
(36:28):
interested in learning moreabout is whether there's
opportunity to use these leasesas a tool to either demand or
encourage you know, whether it'sadoption of practices or
whether it's reporting andsharing of information between
(36:49):
the farmer and the nation buttrying to understand what those
instruments can truly do andadjust this relationship between
the land holder, which is thenation, and the farmer who is
doing the day-to-day operationson the land, can, can we learn
(37:11):
about what that looks like andthen share that outwards to
other communities to adapt?
Okay, here you know like here'san example or a template of a
lease that has these variousprovisions within them, um, and
and then we've learned that thisreally works well in this
situation can other nationsmaybe tweak, tweak that for
themselves, adapt some of thatknowledge.
(37:33):
So that's a really kind ofspecific example of what we're
working on.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Wonderful, I'm just.
I'm so thrilled and excited tohear about all these different
intersections and potential foropportunity, right To build on
those relationships and dothings differently.
Is there anything that youwould love to share about the
project, about your work, yourthoughts about the work that I
haven't asked you yet?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I think for me, what I'm most excited about is just
expanding, you know, just likegetting the word out, having
other communities learn aboutwhat we're doing, and just that
idea of like, oh, you mean wecan change things, cause I think
so much has been just statusquo.
It's just been this is what hasbeen happening on our lands for
(38:20):
decades, and we didn't evenknow that we could think about
doing something differently.
And I think there's been a lotof instances where I've heard
that, where I've heard peoplesay, oh, I didn't even think
about that.
And then people's wheels reallyget turning and then you know
they think, well, yeah, but thenhow about this?
We've been so used to thingsbeing a certain way, like,
(38:40):
especially within ourcommunities, you know, like wow,
you mean we can make thatdecision.
Or wow, like, why not, you know, and so I think it's that like
(39:01):
oh yeah, that that lightbulbmoment of like wow, we can do
this and we should do this.
And actually this is somethingthat we've always wanted, but we
didn't really know what thepathway was, and so I think it's
just like the chance to sort ofshare and almost like conspire
together, you know, to see if wecan make some headway in
(39:24):
different areas, and so I thinkit's really exciting.
I think it it's kind of it's funto collaborate with all of
these folks that are fromdifferent communities and we all
are dealing with similarchallenges, and so it's it feels
more optimistic and hopefulbecause it feels that people are
kind of empowered in it and youknow, it's not just like, oh,
(39:46):
this is what has happened to us,it's more so, well, this is
what we can do and this is howwe can take control over the
situation.
So I think that's the mostexciting thing is just there's
lots of hope.
That's involved.
And I guess one of our coreteam members, roger Daniels he
says he's an optimist and hereally is, and when you hear him
talk about it, it it kind ofgets everybody else really
(40:08):
excited and some of us can bekind of doom and gloom sometimes
, but then you know, becausewe're such a big team, you have
those other people that helpsort of pull you out of that
doom and gloom and back into thehope and optimism, and that's
been really good.
So, um, yeah, shared goals andand just I don't know we all get
along.
I mean not always, but for the,you know it's like family right
(40:33):
yeah oh, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
well, everyone that I've spoken to that is involved
in this project does have anenthusiasm for it, um, and
really cares, and so that hopeand optimism is coming through,
I think in an area where it'sneeded the most because it easy.
It is easy to go into the doomand gloom when we're looking at
big picture you know around theworld what's happening, but to
(40:56):
see real work being done, therelationships being built and
doing it for a much biggerpurpose, it gives me a lot of
hope as well to hear all of youtalk about this project.
So thank you so much for yourtime, dr Arkand.
I really appreciate yourknowledge and your generosity
and sharing your experience andwhat you hope to see with the
project.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Michelle.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
This is the Bridging Relations Podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time.
Funding for this project hasbeen provided by Agriculture and
Agri-Food Canada through theAgricultural Climate Solutions
Living Labs program.
Hello and welcome to the Bridging Relations podcast.
I'm your host, michelle Brass.
Here we dive into diverseperspectives on agriculture and
land management, blendingWestern science and farmer
expertise with Indigenousknowledge and wisdom.
Together we can addresschallenges and opportunities
that enhance agriculturalpractices to support healthy
(00:29):
land, water and sky for futuregenerations.
Thank you for joining us onthis journey.
I'm very excited about today'sepisode.
We're going to hear from DrMelissa Arcand from the Pskig
Lake Cree Nation.
She's an associate professor inthe Department of Soil Science
at the University ofSaskatchewan.
(00:50):
She also teaches in the KanaweTe Tan Aski Certificate Program,
which translates to let's TakeCare of the Land in Plains Cree.
Most of Dr Arcand's researchwork is centered around
agricultural sustainability andland management and
understanding how soil respondsto various agricultural
practices.
Dr Arcand also does a lot ofpartnership work with First
(01:11):
Nations and Indigenousorganizations in areas regarding
land management, agriculturalinitiatives and buffalo
initiatives, and she brings anIndigenous worldview and lived
experiences into her work.
Dr Arcand is one of theresearch co-leads for Bridge to
Land Water Sky and she's here totell us more about her work
with this project.
Hi Dr Arcand, hi Michelle.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Thanks for doing this with me.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yes, I'm really excited for today's episode and
to hear about the work thatyou're doing and what you bring
to this research project.
So tell me a bit about yourselfand how you got into your work,
where are you from and whatbrought you here.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, I think my work really was born out of first an
interest in the environment,actually.
So I grew up on Muskeg Lake andmy parents were farmers and my
grandparents were gardeners werefarmers and my grandparents
were gardeners, and so, growingup, just the day-to-day life was
(02:10):
helping my grandparents in thegarden my mom, you know, being
sort of a gopher for my dadhelping shuttle things back and
forth while he was farming.
And then, at the same time,when I was a pretty young person
in Muskeg, we got toparticipate in a lot of cultural
camps and also had opportunitynot just like within the
(02:31):
community, but even within myelementary school.
There was a lot of culturalteachings that were shared, and
so I really got interested inour relationship to the land,
even when I was really quitelittle.
And then throughout my highschool time period, I was really
interested in science, and sowhen it came time to think about
(02:53):
you know what I might do, and Iknew that I wanted to go to
university thinking about whereI might actually land I started
thinking about environment andenvironmental science, and so I
ended up starting out at theUniversity of Saskatchewan in
the College of Arts and Science,and then ended up moving to
(03:16):
Guelph, ontario, to go to theuniversity there because they
had a pretty comprehensiveenvironmental science program,
and so that's how I kind of goton my academic path and my
interest in soils.
But my interest in agricultureactually didn't happen until I
was about a year into being atGuelph and I was able to get a
(03:38):
summer job with a soil scienceprofessor there at the
university and through thatsummer job I actually got
introduced to soils and alsoreconnected me to agriculture,
because all of the research workthat I was helping with was in
an agricultural context but insouthwestern Ontario.
But it made me think about home.
(03:59):
Actually, you know, seeing whata landscape looks like, seeing
what a landscape looks like,seeing what a field looks like
and what the soil looks like insouthwestern Ontario only made
me compare with what I hadexperienced back home and
actually made me more interestedto understand what home was
like.
And yeah, that kind of that waslike the initial introduction
(04:25):
to to soil science, toagriculture in like an academic
sense and and really thinkingabout what we do in terms of
decision-making um influence howthe soil responds.
But then also, in turn, how dosort of the inherent
characteristics of a soil andwithin a landscape and a
particular climate, really guidewhat is good activity and good
(04:49):
practice.
So, yeah, that was that'sreally how I just started out.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Yeah, Wow, I love that.
I love all the components thatthat led you down this path.
So how long have you been doingthis work?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
My official title or the job that I have.
I've been doing for nine yearsnow, but I mean, as a prof, it
takes a long time to get here.
So I mean, really it started,you know, undergrad, master's
degree, PhD so it's been over 20years, I'd say, since I had
that first summer job.
(05:25):
Yeah, actually that was I'mdating myself now.
That was probably like 23, 23years ago or so.
So, yeah, it's been a longjourney, but I enjoy that.
Now, in the position that Ihave, I have a lot of freedom to
explore a lot of things thatare of interest to me, and so
it's a really privilegedposition to be able to be a
(05:48):
professor and be able tointeract with students and
pursue really interestingresearch questions.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Well, and speaking of what brought you to Bridge, to
Land, water, sky, what broughtyou to the work that you're
doing here?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
today.
It was the team of people andthe friendships and the
relationships that brought notjust me together but I for Mr
Wasis Nehewak at the time, andthen some of the relationships
(06:29):
that he had with otherorganizations, as well as other
researchers and kind ofindividuals in the environment
and agriculture spaces, and soit really was, I think, a
collection of people thatgravitated, you know, and I
think Anthony was really theinitial literal and figurative
(06:53):
bridge builder that brought ustogether to actually start
working on the bridge project.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And tell me about your role with the bridge
project and what you're doingwith it today.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
I feel like I have a few roles.
So one of the I guess theprimary role is being one of the
researchers.
So there's both facultyresearchers through the
University of Saskatchewan, butthen also research scientists
through Agriculture, agri-food,canada, and so I'm one of many
(07:25):
that are really working towardslooking at what are some of the
biophysical aspects that we'retrying to measure and see some
kind of response to a change inagricultural management
practices.
But then there's also otherfolks as part of the team that
(07:47):
are looking at the social andcultural dimensions of these
agricultural systems within bothMistawasis and Muskeg Lake and,
even more broadly, across otherFirst Nations, but also
agricultural producers in theregion, and so, yeah, so part of
my role is being one of thoseresearchers and getting out onto
the land with a team of people.
(08:08):
Because I'm a soil scientist, myresearch work is focused on
looking at soils and especiallysoil, carbon and some of the
microbial or biological aspectsof soils as well as well.
And so, yes, I wear my researchhat, but I think I also wear a
(08:29):
hat that is a bit moremultifaceted, in the sense of
number one.
I'm a Muskeg Lake communitymember, and so oftentimes I
think I end up being atranslator between the
researchers, because I know thatlanguage, and then also with
the folks that are non-academics.
So whether that's, you know,with the lands department people
(08:51):
within both nations, or whetherthat's talking to our other
non-academic NGO partners, youknow especially, yes, I have the
research language, but I alsounderstand some of the more
complicated cultural nuances orFirst Nations land policy
(09:12):
nuances that you know.
Sort of many of our researchcolleagues and non-profit NGO
colleagues don't sort of knowthat that language.
So I'm often, I think, atranslator between academics and
NGOs with with the nations andthen and vice versa.
So that's my unofficial hat, Ithink.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Well, it sounds like you're also a bridge yourself
within the bridge right with,with bridging those different
areas that you just mentioned.
So how important is that to beable to do that in this project,
to be able to move between somany different people and
organizations that arecollaborating on this how
important is it to be able to bethat bridge or that translator?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I think it's critical and I'm not the only one, you
know there's, there's many of uson the team that do serve that,
that really important role oftranslating across, whether it's
disciplines or whether it'ssectors or or even across
community.
I think it's really criticaland I think that's probably one
(10:18):
of the, I'd say, biggest uniquebenefits that this particular
living lab might have over otherliving labs, because we're
bridging not just communicationbetween researchers and farmers,
but we're also bridging betweenresearchers, farmers, first
Nations and all of thosepermutations of those
(10:38):
communication channels.
And I think that's where wehave the greatest opportunity to
provide impact, because we'reable to be that channel for
information, for perspective,for stories to be shared to
listeners and ears thatotherwise would never have heard
those stories.
And that goes in all directions.
(11:00):
You know, many researchers haveno idea about the day-to-day
situation within First Nationsbroadly, but also really
specifically as it pertains toland management policies that
are involved at the nation level, at the decision-making level,
let alone even what might be atthe community level.
(11:22):
So you know not the staff, notthe chief and council, but
community members and what theirinterests are, what their
priorities are.
So being able to share thoseperspectives is one thing.
Another, I think, importantperspective is that for a lot of
individuals in the generalpublic, but also in First
Nations, we don't have a reallygood understanding of
(11:44):
agriculture and the day-to-dayof decision-making that farmers
are undertaking, and so theother way that we're trying to
facilitate communication andinformation and sharing of
perspective is you know what arethe decisions that farmers are
making and why, so that peoplecan have a better understanding
of just what some of thoseissues are, some of those
(12:05):
constraints might be, and wherethere might actually be a common
ground among people.
So I think it's been a reallycritical piece and I think
that's where a lot of our workhas really centered in is that
communication among all of thedifferent individuals,
organizations, rights holders,individuals, organizations,
rights holders, stakeholdersacross the board.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Well, and I'm just thinking how wonderful it must
be to be able to do this workfor your own community, like to
come from Muskeg Lake, be amember and do the work that you
do as a soil scientist, assomebody who can be a translator
and bridge all these differentareas, but is it meaningful for
you to be able to do this workon behalf of your home community
?
We might be working in ourindustries, or you know our area
(12:53):
of expertise, but not be ableto do it specifically for our
own community.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, it's really.
It's really nice actually, andit's nice to be able to, as part
of the work, we've been able totour the lands and, you know,
being able to see parts of myown community that I had never
seen otherwise and visit withsome of my relatives and other
community members and talk aboutthe land and talk about the
(13:18):
history of the land and and evenabout what we're wanting for
the future of the land.
So that's been yeah, it's beenreally rewarding.
It makes it definitely morecomplicated, I think.
In some respects too, andespecially you as a researcher
we're usually working a littlebit more removed from day to day
(13:39):
, and so that's something that Ihave to navigate and manage and
just try to remain objective.
But the work is inherentlyvalue driven, and so I can't
detach my humanness or mypersonhood to the work.
You know what I mean, of course.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, right, and I was just thinking as I asked
that question too, I thought,well, how wonderful, but also
how challenging too, becausethere are challenges too when
working with your own communityas Indigenous peoples in various
capacities, right.
So there's many layers andnuances to to the work,
sometimes into the relationshipsand interconnectedness that we,
(14:19):
that we deal with on aday-to-day basis.
So so tell me a bit about theresearch specifically that you
are doing with bridge to land,water, sky.
What are some of the challengesthat you're looking at?
What?
What are some of the areas ofresearch that you're doing right
now?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
so the program itself is geared towards greenhouse
gas mitigation, so that's thecentral focus on our activities
and certainly any kind ofresearch metrics that we might
be looking at.
So there's a couple of thingsthat are steering our research.
Number one this project ismeant to be a co-developed
(14:56):
project, so any kind ofimplementation of a new practice
that we want to trial is reallygeared towards being
co-developed with the producer,but then also with the added
layer of suggesting potentialpractices that the community
wants, and so it's layered inthat sense, and so we're really
(15:19):
kind of meant to follow alongwith whatever ends up being
implemented.
Then we as researchers have tofind a way to be able to measure
the potential effect of theimplementation of whatever that
land practice might be oragricultural practice might be,
or even collection of practicesmight be.
So, as an example, a few of theland practices or ag practices
(15:42):
that have been trialed out isaround looking at enhanced
efficiency nitrogen fertilizersand looking at variable rate
nitrogen fertilizer application,because there's a lot of
research out there thatindicates that that is a good
strategy to reduce nitrous oxideemissions, and nitrous oxide is
a really potent greenhouse gasand an important target for
(16:05):
greenhouse gas mitigation, andso we had to work with the
farmer first.
To, number one, talk to themand say, well, do you have the
technology in your farmequipment to even implement
variable rate?
And okay, yeah, you do, great,okay, we're one step closer.
But then, number two do youknow how to use that technology?
(16:28):
Okay, you know some learningthat had to happen there.
Great, implemented.
But it's sort of thismulti-layered step of getting to
the point where we'reimplementing something.
So that is really differentfrom a lot of the typical
research work that I would do,which is under much more
controlled conditions, where I'mdetermining what the treatments
(16:52):
are that we're going to testand we make sure that we've got
those research plots allreplicated.
You know we're able to have areally robust statistical
approach to, you know,deciphering whether or not the
effect of our treatment cantruly be attributed to that
(17:13):
treatment or if it's justenvironmental noise that's
contributing to our results.
So the living lab approach is alot different because we don't
have that same opportunity tohave, you know, huge replication
of our experiments, and so wereally rely on looking at what
was the environment like beforewe implemented this practice and
(17:34):
then going back after it's beenimplemented and measuring those
things again and saying, okay,we've seen a response.
So that's been, in large part,the approach that we've had to
take.
And then, for me, I've beenworking with my colleagues from
Ag Canada.
We're really focused on lookingat soil carbon.
We're looking at microbialcommunities because they're
(17:56):
really important in driving someof these processes that either
help to store carbon or thathelp to reduce N2O emissions,
and my colleagues at Ag Canadahave been collecting greenhouse
gas data over the course of thewhole growing season to look at
the effects of these differentpractices and to see if they
(18:16):
reduce N2O emissions.
So, yeah, that's, I guess, along, long story to say that
it's a lot different than mostresearch approaches, because
we're working in a real lifeworking farm with real life
farmers and not just one farmand not just one farmer, but
multiple farmers on multipledifferent fields, and so
(18:39):
everything that we do is muchmore tailored to that specific
farmer, to that specific field.
We're kind of treating fieldslike individuals, and so we're
really tailoring what we thinkwould have the potential
greatest impact.
So it is a lot different than alot of the other research that
I've done.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Well, it sounds fascinating.
I love this real-world approach, or this living lab approach,
and learning more about it.
What are you learning fromdoing this research in this
different environment?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
My learning has less to do about the soil science and
the biophysical and morelearning about value systems
that people have and thatdifferent groups have and then
trying to sort of come to where.
Where do we have those sharedvalues?
What do we need to do togetherto work towards a common goal?
(19:31):
So I think that has been themost interesting part of this
work is trying to understandwhat are those decision-making
processes for any person whoultimately is going to decide
what happens on the land.
So, whether that's a farmer,whether that's a lands
department, whether that's chiefand council, whether that's
(19:53):
what the community members aresaying to chief and council,
that's where I find know whatthe community members are saying
to chief and council, that'swhere I find we're learning the
most and, I think, where wehopefully can be able to share
that that learning outward, sothat it's not just going to be
beneficial to the twocommunities that we're working
with but hopefully to otherFirst Nations and other parts of
the agricultural sector as well.
So, yeah, I think what I'mfinding most fascinating is more
(20:15):
of the social and cultural sideof the agricultural sector as
well.
So, yeah, I think what I'mfinding most fascinating is more
of the social and cultural sideof things.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Of course.
Well, and I'm so fascinated bythis entire project, with all of
the different organizations andgroups working together because
of everything that you've justoutlined right Just the
different world views, thedifferent work experiences and
values, the different livedexperiences, the different
historical advantages anddisadvantages, and access to
lands or not having access, likethere's so many things.
(20:41):
So I think it's wonderfulYou've outlined some of the
research challenges of it beingdifferent, being in a real world
space.
Have there been challengesrelated to the different
worldviews and into how toapproach or what to test or what
to look at, how to interpretsome of the findings?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, I mean honestly .
I think probably one of thebiggest challenges when I put my
researcher hat on is that thepace at which things happen,
whether it's the university orwhether it's in government, is
very fast, very productivity,outcome oriented.
But our project is aboutrelationships, and relationships
(21:23):
take time to build trust, todevelop that friendship, to
develop that respect, even ifthe goal isn't to be friends,
but the goal is to be respectfulof each other.
So I think, even seeing some ofmy colleagues who are new to
this process start to learn andunderstand we're not going to
move at the same pace that wewould in other projects because
(21:46):
in order for anything to getdone we have to have that
relationship piece in place andwithout that, it doesn't matter
how many things we want tomeasure, they're not going to
let us measure it.
So you need that relationshipand trust before we can even try
anything.
So I think, just understandthat you know the challenge is
letting go of what we're used toin terms of pace and sort of
(22:10):
immediate gratification.
You know this is like.
Over time we have to build thisso that the long term goal can
be achieved.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
So tell me a little bit, too, about just bringing
different perspectives to thiswork and we'll talk about the
soil science and I definitelywant to delve into that but just
touching on the relationshipbuilding and the time it takes
also bringing in those differentperspectives and worldviews
when it comes to Indigenousknowledge and science and
different ways of quantifying orof putting value to land and
(22:42):
output, can you just tell me alittle bit about how that looks
for you, or how are you oftenmaybe bridging Indigenous
knowledge with Westernworldviews on science and how we
move forward with a projectlike this?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Probably one of the ways that we do that as a
project, or what's been reallyconsistent within our project,
isn't necessarily like contentin terms of knowledge or
worldview, but it's more so interms of process.
So it's more so, you know, westart our meetings with a prayer
(23:14):
.
The whole project was initiatedofficially through a pipe
ceremony, so it's some of thesemore protocol and cultural
processes that are in play andthat we've learned to really
trust in guiding the work, andso I think a lot of our
colleagues who weren't used tothat have become used to that.
(23:36):
That's just part of the processnow, and so I think that has
probably been some of the thebiggest ways that the difference
in worldview and difference inperspective has manifested in
our day-to-day ways of workingwith each other and and working,
you know, not just as a teambut when we're interacting with
other folks outside of our team.
That's been really central.
(23:58):
So just the process that weeven conduct meetings is very
different than a lot of others.
So everyone has a chance tospeak and everyone has a time
that they are offered the floor.
So I think that's been reallydifferent.
We're still in the learningprocess because I think one of
the things, at least for mepersonally I can't speak for
(24:18):
other Indigenous people is thatthe huge disconnect between what
would have been, you know,traditional practices or even
ways in which we would havemonitored our own lands, just
naturally.
I don't have that knowledge, youknow, because we were so
disconnected from ithistorically.
(24:39):
And so I think, where there'sopportunity to just be on the
land together, I think some ofthat happens naturally.
But I've often hadnon-Indigenous people ask me
well, what's the practice,what's the thing that we can do
that's indigenous, that we canjust implement and it's going to
be, you know, the thing thatwill save us.
(25:00):
And it's like well, no, it'snot about like the one practice
or the one thing that we canthen just adopt into western
ways of doing, it's the whole.
Like I said again, process isthe whole approach to it, it's
the values.
It's not like necessarily thephysical, tangible thing.
I mean, I think that's part ofit, but it's not necessarily
(25:22):
what drives change or whatdrives the worldview.
So, for me personally, I'm just,I'm learning a lot.
I'm learning a lot from otherIndigenous people who have those
cultural teachings, who havethose understandings of even
what our traditional food wouldhave been, because, again, you
know, it's been multiplegenerations where we haven't
been able to harvest foods inthe way that we used to harvest
(25:45):
them on the prairies.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So yeah, yeah, Well, and I kind of smiled a bit when
you said, right, like you know,having colleagues or other
co-workers say, like what wouldbe the practice and how do we
just plug this in?
And you know, I've noticed, inthe work that I've done over the
years too, that, yeah, there isthis interest in learning more
and integrating it, butintegrating it kind of into the
(26:06):
dominant worldview as opposed toreally understanding.
And there's a growingunderstanding and awareness, I'm
finding, which I'm grateful for, of that it's a different way
completely and a differentapproach and a different pace
and tempo.
And it takes time and, like yousaid, being disconnected from a
lot of those practices becauseof the various impacts of
(26:28):
colonization, being separatedfrom our communities and our
families and having thatknowledge taken and it takes
time.
It takes time and protocols andyou know, and we have a lot
happening in our communities andfamilies to look after and so
it's not always easy to just goin and pick it all up and it's
being done, People are doingthat work, but it takes a lot of
(26:51):
intention, time and, like yousaid, that prayer, that pipe
ceremony, the protocols, that itis a different pace.
So yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
It is kind of funny, though, because I have had lots
of times people ask me I'm likewe're not just hoarding these
practices right Like no.
I mean, if it was as easy asplug and play, we would have
already done that.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Right, exactly, yeah.
If it was as easy as plug andplay, we would have already done
that, right, exactly, yeah.
But I just love that there isan entire project that is
working on and there's otherstoo, right, but we're talking
about this one in particularthat is doing that real work, to
integrate it, to do realscience and research in an
Indigenous-led living lab, toalso integrate these different
worldviews and pace in therelationship building.
(27:36):
So I just I think the workthat's being done there is just
fascinating.
So tell me a bit about yourrole, the hat you wear as a soil
scientist, because I'm thinkingspecifically about the Sixth
Territory, thinking about thisparticular region.
You know farming is differentin various areas across North
(27:58):
America and I'm sure there'slots of solutions being
suggested regarding how toreduce.
You know emissions when itcomes to farming practices and
you know best managementpractices, what's what's
specific to this region, andthen the role that soil plays,
which practices or whatsolutions you might look at
exploring more.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
I think there's a few things.
Well, I think one of the coolthings about this region is that
we're a semi-arid climate.
We got cold winters, we have areally short growing season, so
that offers a lot of challenges.
Short growing season, so thatoffers a lot of challenges.
(28:38):
It means that some of thepractices that maybe are pretty
well adapted in other regionswhere they've got more moisture,
they've got longer growingseasons, they're able to
implement.
You know, one of the bigexamples that is often provided
as an important regenerative eggpractice is the use of cover
crops.
As an important regenerativeegg practice is the use of cover
crops and I think it's a reallygood potential practice that
(28:59):
could help.
You know it extends basicallythe length of time that there is
a living plant that is in thesoil that's interacting with the
soil through its root systems,through, you know, any of the
above ground residue that getsto contribute to organic matter.
That's all great in theory butthere's challenges in practice.
(29:20):
In our climate, our growingseasons aren't that long and you
know for farmers to finishharvesting their cash crop in
September and sometimes you knowharvest can go to October and
then for them to turn around andseed another crop and then for
that crop to be able to actuallygerminate and establish well
(29:42):
enough to build enough biomassbefore it freezes.
That's a really tight window oftime, and so I think that's a
challenge.
Where I'm sort of interested inthat might be even just
low-hanging fruit is looking atsome of our marginal lands.
So sadly the reality is in allthe First Nations there's a
(30:04):
higher proportion of land thatis marginal for crop production.
So I don't even necessarilylike that term marginal, but we
use it, but marginal to annualcrop production.
And so this might be areaswhere the soil is just lighter
in texture, so it's just sandier, which means it's a little bit
more prone to erosion.
(30:24):
Or there might be parts of thefield that is maybe subject to
salinity issues, and you know,there's these sort of natural
attributes of the land and thesoil that just makes it not
great for growing crops.
Well, can we maybe not growcrops there?
How about instead we grow somesort of perennial vegetation,
(30:46):
maybe even at the most idealside of things, we grow a
diverse native prairie?
Christy Morrissey, who's one ofour research co-leads within the
BRIDGE project, has anotherproject that's a sister or
partner project to the BRIDGE,looking specifically at
identifying marginal lands andthen looking at strategies to
(31:08):
improve those lands by puttingsome kind of perennial cover,
and that increases not onlypotential for there to be
greater carbon inputs, becausethere's better plant community
establishment, but that alsoinjects greater biodiversity
into those landscapes.
So you know, and parts of thefield aren't making the farmer
(31:29):
any money anyway Can they beused to garner these other, you
know, environmental benefits.
So that, I feel, is a littlebit more low hanging fruit.
But it's still very difficultto identify where those marginal
areas are.
I mean, a lot of farmers theyknow their land really well and
they can say, oh yeah, we knowover here it doesn't produce
(31:52):
really well.
But it still takes somedecision-making to some
understanding about what doesthat mean if we're going to stop
farming that land and dosomething else.
So it's still an input cost,it's still a decision to be made
, it's still a time cost to makethat change.
(32:13):
But I think it's a good waythat we can maybe start.
So I mean so, whether that'sshelter belts, whether that's
riparian areas around wetlands,looking at, can we have a bigger
buffer between our wetland andwhere the farmer is actually
(32:37):
growing a crop?
And then can we look at, youknow, if we are to improve
riparian areas, what is theimpact of that on soil?
Carbon or N2O emissions?
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So how long does it take to?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
find results.
That's the trickiest thing.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah, that's definitely the biggest challenge
, because a lot of what we wantto show, or what we would hope
our intervention might improve,actually takes a long time.
So soil carbon, for example, ifthere's a really big change, it
might take eight to 10 years toactually show a measurable
change of any given practice,and so we don't have a lot of
(33:21):
time within a five-year projectand where we're working with
farmers, so you know, we're notimplementing any kind of change
immediately.
It's taking two or three yearsto even figure out what the
farmer might be game to try, andso instead, what we have to do
to a certain extent is look atother metrics that might be
(33:44):
indicators to where change mightbe eventually.
So, for example, if we'relooking at soil carbon and we
want to increase overall carbonstocks because that's truly what
soil carbon sequestration wouldbe is can we look at some of
the processes that are a bitmore responsive, that lead to
(34:04):
improved carbon storage, thatlead to persistence of carbon in
soil, so that the carbon's notlost through microbial
respiration?
So there's sort of ways that wecan look at these other
indicators that might help us topredict where that carbon might
be in 8 to 10 years, 20 yearsdown the line.
And then we're also working withother researchers who actually
(34:28):
model greenhouse gas emissionsso they can input known
parameters that we can get byworking with our producers to
input into the model and thenpredict what those changes in
practices or the inputs that areused on the farm scale to
(34:48):
predict what greenhouse gasemissions would look like.
So there's a little bit ofmodeling that's going to be
involved in this project as well.
But yeah, it is a challenge, Imean, and honestly what I would
hope is that this work extendsbeyond the length of this
particular project.
There's been indication thatthis program might prolong for
(35:10):
another five years.
We'll see what happens afterthe next election, but you know,
I'm hoping that this would leadto opportunities to extend the
work so that we can actually goback and measure carbon 10 years
from now and see if there'sbeen a change.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Well, I imagine, with all of the work that you and
others are putting into it andthe relationships that are being
built, that there is a desireto keep doing this work and
exploring and researching andfinding out and looking for
solutions to a lot of thechallenges that we're facing.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
What are you hopeful about?
What guides you the most, aboutthe work you're doing with this
?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
That just the story gets out, that people get
interested, that people learnsomething.
I'm especially excited aboutbeing able to work with other
First Nations and sharing whatwe learn from this project to
other communities so that theycan, you know, maybe even adapt
some of what we're doing totheir own situation.
(36:06):
One of the things that we'vebeen talking a lot about that
we're hoping we can make someheadway on is that a lot of the
First Nations land is actuallyleased out to farmers that are
not First Nations.
They don't live within thecommunity.
They might be neighboringfarmers, but they're not
community members, and so one ofthe things that we're really
(36:28):
interested in learning moreabout is whether there's
opportunity to use these leasesas a tool to either demand or
encourage you know, whether it'sadoption of practices or
whether it's reporting andsharing of information between
(36:49):
the farmer and the nation buttrying to understand what those
instruments can truly do andadjust this relationship between
the land holder, which is thenation, and the farmer who is
doing the day-to-day operationson the land, can, can we learn
(37:11):
about what that looks like andthen share that outwards to
other communities to adapt?
Okay, here you know like here'san example or a template of a
lease that has these variousprovisions within them, um, and
and then we've learned that thisreally works well in this
situation can other nationsmaybe tweak, tweak that for
themselves, adapt some of thatknowledge.
(37:33):
So that's a really kind ofspecific example of what we're
working on.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Wonderful, I'm just.
I'm so thrilled and excited tohear about all these different
intersections and potential foropportunity, right To build on
those relationships and dothings differently.
Is there anything that youwould love to share about the
project, about your work, yourthoughts about the work that I
haven't asked you yet?
Speaker 2 (37:56):
I think for me, what I'm most excited about is just
expanding, you know, just likegetting the word out, having
other communities learn aboutwhat we're doing, and just that
idea of like, oh, you mean wecan change things, cause I think
so much has been just statusquo.
It's just been this is what hasbeen happening on our lands for
(38:20):
decades, and we didn't evenknow that we could think about
doing something differently.
And I think there's been a lotof instances where I've heard
that, where I've heard peoplesay, oh, I didn't even think
about that.
And then people's wheels reallyget turning and then you know
they think, well, yeah, but thenhow about this?
We've been so used to thingsbeing a certain way, like,
(38:40):
especially within ourcommunities, you know, like wow,
you mean we can make thatdecision.
Or wow, like, why not, you know, and so I think it's that like
(39:01):
oh yeah, that that lightbulbmoment of like wow, we can do
this and we should do this.
And actually this is somethingthat we've always wanted, but we
didn't really know what thepathway was, and so I think it's
just like the chance to sort ofshare and almost like conspire
together, you know, to see if wecan make some headway in
(39:24):
different areas, and so I thinkit's really exciting.
I think it it's kind of it's funto collaborate with all of
these folks that are fromdifferent communities and we all
are dealing with similarchallenges, and so it's it feels
more optimistic and hopefulbecause it feels that people are
kind of empowered in it and youknow, it's not just like, oh,
(39:46):
this is what has happened to us,it's more so, well, this is
what we can do and this is howwe can take control over the
situation.
So I think that's the mostexciting thing is just there's
lots of hope.
That's involved.
And I guess one of our coreteam members, roger Daniels he
says he's an optimist and hereally is, and when you hear him
talk about it, it it kind ofgets everybody else really
(40:08):
excited and some of us can bekind of doom and gloom sometimes
, but then you know, becausewe're such a big team, you have
those other people that helpsort of pull you out of that
doom and gloom and back into thehope and optimism, and that's
been really good.
So, um, yeah, shared goals andand just I don't know we all get
along.
I mean not always, but for the,you know it's like family right
(40:33):
yeah oh, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
well, everyone that I've spoken to that is involved
in this project does have anenthusiasm for it, um, and
really cares, and so that hopeand optimism is coming through,
I think in an area where it'sneeded the most because it easy.
It is easy to go into the doomand gloom when we're looking at
big picture you know around theworld what's happening, but to
(40:56):
see real work being done, therelationships being built and
doing it for a much biggerpurpose, it gives me a lot of
hope as well to hear all of youtalk about this project.
So thank you so much for yourtime, dr Arkand.
I really appreciate yourknowledge and your generosity
and sharing your experience andwhat you hope to see with the
project.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Michelle.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
This is the Bridging Relations Podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Looking forward to connectingwith you next time.
Funding for this project hasbeen provided by Agriculture and
Agri-Food Canada through theAgricultural Climate Solutions
Living Labs program.
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