Lessons in Love and Healing with Kevin Troiano

Episode 1: Lessons in Love & Healing w/ Kevin Troiano

What does it really mean to heal?

In this deeply personal and powerful premiere episode, I sit down with intuitive healer and breathworker Kevin Troiano.

Together, we explore the raw truth behind healing: the patterns we inherit, the pain we hide in plain sight, and the journey of reclaiming our worth.

We dive into:

• The hidden weight of being a “helper-holic”
• Psychological sobriety & non-triumphant healing
• The power of showing up fully human
• Childhood trauma, identity, and how we unknowingly shape our adult relationships
• What it means to move from survival to true connection

This episode isn’t about fixing you—it’s about feeling you.

Because love isn’t something we chase. It’s something we’re built for.

New episodes every other Tuesday. Available on all podcast platforms + YouTube.

Episode Transcript

(00:36):
Hey, there you beautiful souls.
Welcome to Built For Love.
I'm your host, Javier Ortega,and today we're diving deep into
healing what it truly means, whyit's essential, and how doing
this work allows us to show upfully for ourselves and in all
of our relationships.
Because here's the thing, whenwe don't take the time to
understand ourselves, our woundsand our patterns, we end up

(00:58):
moving through lifeunconsciously reacting instead
of choosing repeating cyclesinstead of creating new
possibilities.
But when we heal, when we reallydo the inner work, we reclaim
our power.
We start living and loving froma place of truth rather than
trauma.
And today I have someone with mewho has been a huge part of my

(01:20):
healing and self-discovery.
Through our sessions together,I've been able to deconstruct
deep rooted beliefs, recognizeold agreements that no longer
serve me, and moving to a spaceof more conscious awareness.
Each session has been profoundlyawakening, and I continue to
learn from him, not just as ahealer, but as a guide and
teacher.

(01:41):
He brings a unique blend ofintuitive healing, breath work,
and an approach that bridgesdeep spiritual work with the
human experience.
His work is centered around theidea that the desire for magic
is really the desire forconnection, and that in our
search for larger stories, wecan sometimes lose sight of
compassion and presence.
His latest exploration, which hecalls non triumphed healing,

(02:05):
embraces the complexity andmystery of transformation while
deeply grounded in reality.
I'm honored to introduceintuitive healer and breath
worker, Kevin Triano.
Kevin, welcome to Built forLove.
For those who may not befamiliar with your work, can you
share what you do and how youcame into this practice?

(02:27):
Sure, sure.
It, it'll be boring, but Ican't, no, I'm pretty sure it's
not gonna be boring, guys.
No.
Um, I, I love what you sharedthere.
Um, I think, um.
For me, I was, I was a musicstudent for a long time.
I played, um, the big doublebass in the orchestra and did
composition and I played in theCivic Orchestra of Chicago.

(02:50):
And that was like the trainingorchestra for the Chicago
Symphony.
And you got to work in orchestrahall and play with all these
people.
And the, the thing I wasexperiencing was like how cool
it was to listen to everyone'spart as we came together and
played the music.
And, um, I ended up going overto the University of Cambridge
in England for a couple of yearson a scholarship.

(03:10):
And I kept deepening my pro myprocess of listening.
I started doing a lot of yogaand getting body work and like
running and doing things.
And that sort of changed my patha little bit, uh, more than a
little bit.
I ended up doing like differentmassage trainings, body work
trainings, breath work stuff.
And it's, uh.
That's pretty much why I saidit's boring because like we have

(03:33):
more important things to talkabout than how I got to the
work.
I think what we can talk aboutis sort of what you mentioned,
which is, uh, the healing idea,right?
Right, right.
Like this profundity thing thatwe, that we're all grasping for.
Um, but then I think the way youknow, your story on how you got
into it is it sounds tangible,it sounds reachable, it sounds
like, you know, uh, it doesn'tsound like you had to go to this

(03:57):
like sabbatical in India andlike, you know, it's, it's,
right.
It's pretty relatable and Ithink that that's, that's an
awesome thing.
You know, for me, over the pastnine months, my journey with you
has been incrediblytransformative and a big part of
that has been not just.
The healing itself, but theshifts in how I see and move

(04:17):
through life.
How, how would you say I'veevolved since our first session,
and what insights from thattransformation do you think
would resonate with thoselistening who are on their path
of deconstructing andrebuilding?
I think your process is a greatexample for people around the
humility that it can take toheal, which is like your

(04:40):
willingness to come into thework and be like, you know,
okay, what am I not sort ofaware of?
What am I, what am I needing tokind of look at?
We can be, we're, we can be verytender around our lives.
It's difficult, isn't it?
Like for me, it totally has beenlike, Hey, there was this thing
you didn't understand, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Like there's this thing you'reunaware of and Right.

(05:03):
I like being good at things.
I know you do too.
Yeah.
And it's this idea of like, I'monly gonna do the things I'm
good at.
And then someone comes along andlife comes along and says, it's
not that you're terrible, it'sjust that you have an area in
your life where you're normal.
And it's like, yeah, no, no, notnormal.
I'm so sure not ordinary.

(05:23):
Right?
No.
And definitely not below averagehigh.
Right?
Like so because we all want tobe like in the advanced
placement class and the giftedstudent, and we wanna do well
when life comes by and says,shit, it's okay.
The superman in you is real, butthe Clark Kent is too.
Right?
Your human is real.
Right?

(05:43):
And your human's like, uh.
And then we feel this crisis.
What I've admired about yourprocess is you're like, you'll
look at me sometimes and belike, so I thought it was this,
and now you're telling me it'sthis.
And I kind of have to look andbe like, yeah, it's that.
Oh.
And you can feel that amazingstudent and child in you that's
like, I gotta get this.
Right.
Right.

(06:04):
Like how helpful you were as akid, how sensitive you are to
everybody.
I really resonate with that,that sense of, you know, trying
to help everyone and wanting tobe about all the right things.
That's why we talk about thathelper holic thing, where you're
like, I wanna fix everybody.
I'm gonna help everybody.
And when we become conditionedas helpers to like know
everything and fix everything,our identity is that we are more

(06:27):
aware than everybody.
Right.
And the sad part in some of ourlives when we're kids is that
you can be, you can be the mostaware person in your family.
Mm-hmm.
When you're a little kid andyou're like.
You know what?
They, they don't see me.
But what makes me special andmagical is that I know more and
I'm not as stressed by life asthey are.
Yeah.
And it's like, no, you justdon't have permission to be
stressed.

(06:48):
Oh, that is so good.
You don't, you don't havepermission to like, how was your
day?
You know, that's not happening.
You're like, is everyone okay?
Right.
Yeah.
I'll clean the house.
I help out, I'll do everything Ican.
Like I don't wanna be a burden.
I don't wanna bother anyone.
No, I, I, I mean, I was a serialpeople pleaser for sure.
That's, and so you were, youknow, when I say to someone like
a helper ho is a, a difficultproblem because a, it's a

(07:11):
problem everyone benefits fromRight.
And alcoholic or somebody elsewho's doing drugs, you're like,
it's destructive.
But a helper is like, I'm gonnahelp everybody.
And no one notices like aworkaholic.
They don't notice the problem.
'cause they're like, there aregood things about this thing you
do where you're fixingeverything.
Yeah.
And that's what you realize.
Like, and I've gotta fix it andI've gotta this and I've gotta
that eventually the brain feelsthis enormous pressure to do a

(07:33):
great job and then itoversimplifies.
Some of the details.
Mm.
Yeah.
It, it stops reading the noveland it goes, where are the Cliff
notes?
I just want a short, quicksummary of this.
Right.
'cause we don't, like, sometimesthe pages are like, uh, the
details.
Ugh.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's what you've shown meis a lot of courage as you're
like, I really wanna do this andI really wanna do it.

(07:53):
Right.
And I'm like, sometimes it'scomplex, sometimes it's just not
fun.
Right.
And I've been like, it shouldalways be like fun and
triumphant and, and enthusiasticand like there it's happening
for me, the breakthrough ishappening tomorrow.
Right.
And it's like, okay.
Breakthrough's kind of a drug,right?
Yeah.
The helper holics like, I'mpowerless against enthusiasm.
I'm powerless againstprofundity.

(08:14):
Right, right.
We have to kind of own that.
We can get super excited.
Right.
And super cheer leadery.
But a lot of your healing islike ungluing, the pompoms from
your hand for others.
Oh, you, you call and and thelast session that we had, the
third one.
Yeah.
Uh, you called me a walking peprally and I could not think of a
better description because thatis on point.

(08:37):
Well, it's, it comes from thatspace, right, of like I said,
like that we both can feel Iresonate with that.
Right.
When you come in for sessions,it's more like a helper holic
meeting where we're both talkingabout like, man, this, yeah,
this helping a hurt world,right?
Yeah.
People are not thinking the wayyou're thinking, so never forget
that for the people who might belistening, like you are walking

(08:58):
the road less traveled.
Most people aren't gonna bethinking about these things,
right.
Just take a deep breath.
You don't need to solve theproblems of the world.
You don't need to fix the wholething.
And that's what's cool aboutwhat you do is like you are
walking the road less traveled.
You're like, I wanna look.
What can I see?
And that's a beautiful thing.
And when people can do that,that's great.
Yeah.
I love how you integrate bothlike a spiritual and an embodied

(09:19):
approach in your healing work.
Could you break down how thosetwo perspectives compliment each
other in the journey ofself-awareness and in
transformation?
You know, when you mentionedthat idea of like non triumphant
healing or non triumphantconsciousness, I was very
similar to you and to a lot ofpeople.
This desire for spirituality andenergy is very strong.

(09:41):
Mm-hmm.
And.
I think for me, um, what hashappened in my life around sort
of like psychological sobriety,what I learned through my own
process was like certainty forme spiritually and energetically
was like cocaine or somethingelse for somebody else.
Hmm.
And I realized that my egowanted to use that certainty to

(10:03):
try to help others, but itmostly wanted to use it.
I made a joke to myself like, doyou want to help or do you just
want the credit?
Mm.
Oh, that's good.
And my ego, my ego was like, oh,I, I just want the credit.
Like I want to be the ultimatehelper of all time.
You know?
Like, I wanna, I wanna fix allof it today, right?
I'm gonna help the world.

(10:24):
And it's like, I looked at thatpoor little boy and I'm like,
why do you have to helpeverybody?
Why do you have to fixeverything?
Why do you have to take care ofthe world?
And the answer was, um, becauseI can only like myself if I'm a
superhero, I.
Mmm.
And I know you resonate withlike, if I'm not doing magical
and amazing things in theconnection.

(10:44):
Absolutely.
I mean, I felt like I, if I wasgood at everything, I was
important.
I was seen, I was heard.
Yeah.
If I, you know, if I could fixpeople over, I could help them.
You know, it is beneficial,official.
So you're like, everyone seemsto like it when I do the
helping.
I mean, I left music andcreativity in my own sort of

(11:05):
self-expression because I waslike, it's selfish in a world
that's this hurt.
I need to help this world.
Mm-hmm.
So it was kind of the helpercoming back on one level.
I was right because I didn'tjust wanna make sound and do all
that stuff.
As much as that was cool andfun, but also my ego was like,
I'm gonna help everybody.
That's what I'll do.
Right.
And what you end up realizing islike there's a lot of compassion

(11:28):
for what people go through, but.
When, when whoever we're talkingto anyone's thinking about this
stuff, it's so nice to havepeople that are taking the time
to do that because it'sexceptional.
Mm-hmm.
And the healing that you know,you and I can do and that you
can help me with and I can helpyou with.
And the kind of helper holicmeeting is like, look, let's
just, let's just do our part ofthis knowing that, you know,

(11:50):
it's gonna do whatever it'sgonna do.
Right?
Yeah.
And, and be honest about that.
Like be really honest about it.
Right.
It is the road less traveled andit's very special that you're
doing, and it's special foranyone who's out there trying to
do it.
It's exceptional.
Right.
And it's, it makes me think oftoo, um, you know, when I went
into getting my certificationfor life coaching and spiritual
life coaching Yeah.
It was very much like, let meget all these other things added

(12:13):
onto that.
Right.
Because I do energy works, but Idon't have, um, necessarily
experience and like reiki andthat's what a lot of people see
and they're like, oh, so it'slike, let me get certified in
this and this and this and thisand that.
And I had a moment and it.
It a few months ago, I think itwas after one of our sessions,
and it was like, all of that isgreat and I can wave my flag
trying to fix everybody sayinglike, you know, I can do all

(12:36):
this for you, but that.
When it comes to the healingitself, like I, yes, it's helped
me, but it helped me because I,I was looking for it.
Mm-hmm.
I was moving towards that.
I was trying to figure outdifferent avenues, like to try
to force that, or maybe notforce that, but to try to like
wave that flag of like, Hey, Ican do all this for you in front

(12:58):
of someone.
Like, they're not going toresonate with it unless they're
looking for it.
Mm-hmm.
So it's like, you know, I'vetaken a step back and this is
what, this is how I show up andthis is also why I'm doing this
podcast.
Because, through a lot of thepeople that have been mentors to
me or that I look up to, I'vebeen able to hear their stories,

(13:20):
you know, and how they'vehealed.
Right?
Yep.
Being, it's, it's relatable and,and being able to bring that to
the podcast because I've, I'veexpanded so much in, in
self-love and in love ingeneral.
Um.
it, it allows me to just show upmore authentically and, and
bring to the table rather thantrying to pull in Yeah.

(13:43):
Psychological sobriety.
Right, right.
Is that sense of like, Hey,we're here as a couple of people
and I.
We're here and gone.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Like the Buddha when he was, youknow, not that I'm a huge fan,
but he, you know, he was a guyand one of the pe, one of the
sets of people he taught werethese fire worshiping ascetics,
and they were meditating andlooking at the fire, and they

(14:05):
were like, oh, the fire, it'simpermanent.
Everything is on fire.
And the Buddha's like, you'refires are redundant.
You're on fire, you're gonna diesoon.
Like, what do you wanna do withyour life?
Right.
You're not outside of theprocess watching it, which is
what, as helpers the drug is.
Mm-hmm.
When you were a kid, you werelike, I'm less real, I'm less
human.
They're more human, and whatthey're going through is more

(14:25):
vulnerable.
More.
Right.
And so what happens like math,like you become in healing and
in thoughtfulness, like calculusand trigonometry, and then you
encounter people whose problemsare like flashcards.
You're like, well, that problemis this.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But your problems are justmultiplication tables.
I can do that in my sleep.
Right?
And then the, the helper in usis like, see, I know things.

(14:46):
See I'm okay.
See I'm this right.
And that's the drug we keepdoing.
So when we do this, it's, that'sso good.
Yeah.
It's psychological sobriety.
We're sort of saying like, youknow, when, when we were
children.
Our lives in different waysaffected us profoundly and
changed our lens.
Right.
And made us think we've gotta dosomething about this.
Mm.

(15:06):
That's the drug.
Your brain is literally tellingyou, I have to fix this whole
thing and you're younger than meand you're learning this and I'm
proud of you.
'cause I'm like, he's gettingthis earlier.
It took me five decades tofinally reach.
So I think for me it's a dancebetween being like, I have no
idea.
I have no way of knowing.

(15:27):
Right, right, right, right,right, right.
So it's a way to confront the,the way that human experience
when it's hurt goes, can goreally big.
Right.
And then bringing it back andbeing like, that may all be
there.
You could be totally right.
But the human experience is likeanaphylaxis.
Like it's like really hard to bewith.
Mm-hmm.

(15:47):
And the reason it's hard to bewith is'cause it moves more
slowly.
Mm, mm-hmm.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Language moves more slowly, allthat stuff.
So that's really what you showme is a lot of courage of being
like, alright, what's, let'shave the language about it.
Like, let's learn how to talkthrough it.
Right.
Yeah.
That's a, that's a huge leap.
Yeah.
That's been, it's been very, um,awakening for me as well.

(16:09):
Um, you know, for me, one of thebiggest realizations that I've
had through our work together isthat we often don't move from
true choice, but fromconditioning and unresolved
experiences.
Can you speak to how yourapproach helps us break free
from those condition responses?
'cause I know, uh, you know, forme it really has like, it's, it

(16:31):
is been a lot of consciousawareness diving and, and, and
so what are your thoughts onthat?
I think when I think of yoursituation, I think of.
The, the unreality.
Sometimes I have to pinch myselfa little bit when I think about
things you've gone through andwho you've decided to become.
Because a lot of people who gothrough like half as much as you

(16:53):
went through are really not okayand they aren't helping in the
world, just so you know.
Um, so for me to have anopportunity to see someone who
goes through something, it'simportant to remember like when
we think back to the hurt peoplethat may have been around us

(17:14):
when we were younger, right?
And think about the choices andthe decisions they made.
I once had a mentor in Chicagodescribe like abuse as in
certain cases, a person meetingtheir needs without the other
person's permission.
And it was never, I had neverthought about like.
Perpetrators of abuse or otherthings is anything other than
these villains.
And what he was helping me seeis like, well, when I hear their

(17:36):
stories, I understand'cause heworked with like people who were
not okay or whatever.
And um, he's like, you, youunderstand why they think it's
okay for them to do it.
Like you hear the stories.
Um, and that's why sometimes Ithink about mental illness when
people talk about that.
And I'm like, sometimes maybe,but I think it's more trauma
induced dysfunction than mentalillness.

(17:58):
Like, I don't think they comeout of the gates necessarily
mentally ill maybe, I don'tknow.
Right, right, right.
But trauma induced dysfunctionis way more likely, right?
Like that several things happenthat the person just really has
a hard time making a betterchoice.
And I think the thing that someof the people listening might
also be like you in a waybecause they might be curious
enough to be like, you know, tounderstand that they actually

(18:22):
had an extraordinary response.
To the pain that they inheritedas it as it went through one
generation after the next, maybeeach generation did five, 10%
better, but they mostly passedit on.
And then there's people like youwho are like, no, it ends with
me.
Like I'm not doing five or 10%better.
I'm totally changing thetrajectory of how this goes.
Right.
And probably a lot of peoplelistening I would guess are

(18:45):
similar people who've like wentthrough a lot and their whole
thing is like, I'm not gonna letthat bring me down.
And the the, the challengingthing is like reminding you of
being like, that's a lot to gothrough and it's a lot to heal.
And we dealing with how much weare hurting in our families, one

(19:07):
generation after the next andhow much they struggle and then
just how much they have achallenge of how to do better.
And I can look at that and ownwhere like, wow.
Like I said, ooh, I, I thought Ihad escaped some of the trauma
of my child that I had twobrothers.
And I'm like watching them havea hard time a little bit.
And there I am off at, off atthe Magical Colleges and golden

(19:29):
boy, like, I'm not gonna beaffected the way they were.
And I was wrong.
I just had buried it and hid itaway from myself.
Way better.
Right?
And you can, you can relatelike, God, I have this place.
I put it so that I don't have tokind of deal with it.
And then it, for me, it keptpercolating up.
And it could lead to explosions.
It could lead to me beingcompletely like, totally outta

(19:51):
control and being so angrybecause I was like, no, I have
all this under, I understand allthis.
Nothing is, nothing's there forme to learn.
And then I had people in my lifewho were loving and caring, who
were like, interdependence, youthink you know all this by
yourself, but we know things youdon't know.
And I hated it.
I was like, oh, then that meansI don't know everything.

(20:13):
Right?
And then I felt compassion forthat little boy to be like, you
don't need to know everything.
Like it's not your identity.
Other people also know thingsand they can help you.
And it was scary.
It was really, really scary.
And it, it can continue to bescary for me to be like, I
missed that person, or I needthat person right now.
I go, ar and then I'm like, no,it's true interdependence,

(20:36):
right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we can feel that together.
Like when we talk about healing,you can be like, I can bring
some stuff to your attention.
And you're like, Hmm, I reallydon't like what you're gonna
say.
And I'm like,'cause we're goingto that shitty area, right?
Of like, ugh, you're going tothe place where the stuff lives.
And like, yeah, I'm sorry, butit's, it's not, it's not fun.

(21:00):
I, I know.
And then you're like, yeah, I'mokay.
Let's go.
Right.
I'll, I'll challenge you to dosomething and give you a chance
to think about it.
And usually you'll come back tome and be like, okay.
Right.
I'll do the thing I kind ofdon't wanna do, because.
It doesn't leap out as me out atme as Right.
But it is the right challenge.
Yeah.
And a lot of it too has beenjust something that I didn't

(21:21):
realize was there.
So it's like, it's like thatego, like thinking I really know
myself.
Like I've done all this work toknow myself and, and so then
like in our last session, one ofthe first things you told me was
there's like this dormantdepression.
Mm.
That's surfacing.
Yeah.
And I'm like, they, you know,that didn't show up in our first

(21:42):
two sessions, but is showing up.
And for me, my reaction waslike, no, like I've never been
depressed.
I don't get depressed.
Like, that's not like I, I'm avery happy person, right.
Like I'm a lightworker, I'mthis, I'm that.
Yeah.
And then all of a sudden, youknow, I.
Having that awareness starts toopen up like the, oh, shit.

(22:02):
Like I've been looking at mylife completely like trying to
like protect myself.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I have to look at itfor what it is.
Like I never felt the pain thatI should have felt.
I never, that's huge.
Yeah.
I never related to depressionbecause it was a choice not to

(22:23):
and mm-hmm.
Now I realize that or otherswere cornering that market.
Right, right, right, right.
Others were that way.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
Others, others were affected.
And that's how others becomemore real in the child's mind.
The child cares deeply about thepain of the others around them.
Mm-hmm.
And then they become.
More in need of love and thechild's like, I can help.

(22:44):
And then those people receivethe help and they're like, oh,
that's good.
Right?
And then the kid's like, Ihelped, I helped, I fixed,
that's why I'm good is I, Ifixed and I'm not like that.
And I'll never be a burden andI'll never have the feelings you
have because you are human.
And I'm less human.
And what makes me special in thebig family is that I'm less
human.
Right?
No, it's, and it's, it's, it's,uh, I was the walking pep rally

(23:05):
and I was, you know, I was theone that had the answers and,
and the fixer and the more calmone.
But really I was, what am Ihiding in plain sight.
I was hiding pain.
I was hiding, you know, thingsthat I was creating them.
Uh, you know, when you are in a,um, when you are, you know, when

(23:27):
you're a child and you are in asituation where you're being
molested or being abused, youknow, a lot of the times that
abuser will.
Will create that specialexperience between you and them.
And so for me, as someone whomm-hmm.
Lacked a lot of attention, wholacked being seen, who lacked

(23:47):
being heard, those moments to mewere like, yeah, they were
special because I'm gettingattention.
And so I go my entire lifeknowing and being fully aware of
those moments.
But they were special moments.
They were like, feel goodmoments, right?
Special moments.
And now I'm, they were, theywere confusing moments where the
wires got crossed in yournervous system, right?

(24:07):
Because of neglect.
You were open to connection,whatever terms, and they weren't
entirely Okay.
Physical experiences either, butthere was a crossover and a
confusion, right?
So that you're receivingattention, but it is completely
not okay.
Exactly.
And your nervous system was toldor had it framed as a special
experience.
I mean, one thing is like toreally slow down that in, I want

(24:30):
to say sort of like whatever youdecide to do.
Like, you don't need to includethat in this podcast.
Like what you just shared isvery personal and very much your
life.
That doesn't need to be anythingthat anyone else knows by the
way.
Um, and two, if you decide toshare it and you decide to
include it, um.

(24:50):
What I would say is a lot ofwhat we work on is trying to
help people do a better job withyou.
Hmm.
That's a lot of what we weretalking about sort of before we
began today.
Right.
Was like, what would it like, belike to create a situation where
someone learned how to be abetter friend to you and you
were receiving that more thanleading it.
Right.
And that's hard.

(25:10):
The receiving is difficult andyou know, that's, you went, you
went way deep there in sharingthat piece of having someone,
um, again, someone who was notokay, who was a little bit older
than you, uh Right.
You know, was not okay.
Uh, decide to, sounds like do toyou probably things that had

(25:31):
happened to that person.
Right, exactly.
And then decide that that wasokay because that person was
gonna be bigger, older, and incontrol, which is likely how
that pandemic of harm was beingexperienced possibly in the
family circle for all we know.
Right.
And so.
That that is an example of likeyour mind surviving and

(25:53):
reframing the experience assomething that is somehow
volitional, that it's likesomething you were okay with
because it didn't have a choice.
It had to just decide I was okaywith that.
Right.
And then it tries to give itdifferent headings.
It tries to make it so that itwas okay that, that it was, that
was the way it was supposed togo.
Right.
Um, and whenever you hear anyonesay, my life went exactly how it

(26:17):
was supposed to go, I'm exactlywho I need to be.
This is exactly how everythingwas meant to be.
It's like, okay.
That I don't mind that as achess piece on the, like the
foundation.
Mm-hmm.
And we don't wanna overemphasizelike the things we go through,
but it's definitely not yourtendency to emphasize the impact
of the things you went through.

(26:38):
Right.
Your tendency is the otherthing, which is harder to
embrace because we have a world.
That is deeply overconnected toevery little thing that hurt me.
Really, really hurt me.
And I'll never be okay.
Ever.
Right?
Or I don't even want to talkabout all the things that hurt
me.
I just wanna do things to changehow I feel.
Right?
Like, like people who arecommitting crimes or who are

(26:59):
hurting people are doing itbecause they're like, I get to
do this because I, you know, Ididn't get held enough as a kid,
right?
And I get to do this now.
You know, like, so.
If we look at a world that istotally embracing all of its
anger and rage and tantrum andupset.
'cause it is, you are.
You're like, I don't want to beone of these people who says
that I was affected by whathappened to me.
Because I live in a world whereeveryone is, I can't believe

(27:22):
it's like this.
Right?
90% of the globe is like that.
And you're like, I don't wannabe like that.
I'm like, no, you have everyright to be like, that was way
too much and I couldn'tintegrate it.
Right.
And that's a genuine moment forpeople to see that someone's
taking a real risk and they getto see you kind of process that
you are this very thoughtful,very considered human being who
can remain steady as you openyour heart up to the sadness of

(27:48):
everybody in that situation.
Right.
And the sadness of the choicesthey made.
Like David Elliot, I think toldme the breath worker guy that he
had worked with, people thattogether that.
Whether whoever it was who hadabused the person, they, they
came in for a session and workedtogether and they owned the
thing that kind of came throughthat process of abuse.
Wow.
And did repair around it.

(28:09):
Unusual, uncommon, yeah.
Most people will take noresponsibility for that, so it's
very uncommon.
But it's important to rememberthat that healing in this case,
in that case, means realizingthat that poor kid's lens was
changed and like Hiroshima, likethe bomb hits, and then the
radiation of the trauma laststhrough decades.

(28:31):
Yeah.
And then you're like, wow, I'mstill sorting through.
How that changed things.
Right.
And it matters.
And, and that's where likeconscious awareness, you know,
I, I, again, I hadn't beenseeing it that way, so I also
wasn't fully, I also fullydidn't know who I was as I was
moving through certain parts.

(28:52):
Even like specifically becausethat was a sexual experience.
Right.
You know, I didn't know that Iwas moving the way that I was
moving sexually from thattrauma.
Right.
And then you were, you were alsotargeted'cause it wasn't Right.
Your mind decided it wasn'ttrauma.
Exactly.
So you were then targeted bypeople who were sort of
subconsciously aware, right?
Mm-hmm.

(29:12):
That the limping gazelle, thelittle, you know, the, the, the
predator in them could be like,Ooh, I, I see the part of him
that was, it was, it was a lotof like sexual experience.
So much that like, it, thatbecame my identification that,
that, like, I identified myselfthrough how I showed up in sex.
So your brain was constantlytrying to make this violation.

(29:34):
Okay.
Right.
And then constantly trying tosay that there was an order to
this disorder and a way thatthis thing that was completely
not okay was just part of whoyou were.
That's an incredibly importantthing for anyone listening that
they like, want to make it.
Like people do that.
Like if they're neglected orthey're hurt or other things are
like, it's because I'm not good.
It's because I'm bad.
It's because I'm not who Ineeded to be.

(29:55):
That's why they couldn't love meor something.
Mm.
No one likes to say like, theywere hurt.
They didn't know how to love me.
I was great.
They just couldn't see it.
Right.
And if you, if you put any otherchild in the situation you were
in, you would, you would cringe.
You would, you would.
Absolutely.
Oh, absolutely.
You would be terrified.
Absolutely.
And what the, what the helperHolics brain does is it says,

(30:16):
actually it's okay because I'mnot like a normal human.
Right.
And where the, where the ego,where the dangerous shadow
dimension of the helper holiccomes in is the helper holic
very quietly and is precociouslittle Mozart hyper maturity,
the forced into being like.
Very, very aware and consciousand helpful at a very young age.

(30:37):
Mm-hmm.
Because the child in, in thatsituation is not receiving
normal input.
The child goes very big into thecosmos and says, the way I am
special, unique, and different,which every child needs to feel
mm-hmm.
From their parents and theirfamily.
But in, but in your case did nothappen.

(30:58):
My case did not happen either.
They, they say I'm differentfrom, better than, and in the
midst of that is huge, is very,very low self-esteem.
Right.
Right.
So you go into relationship, Ican go into relationship and we
can be like, I have to save andhelp and do and help and do all
this stuff.
And on one level it's, I have todo 10 times the amount that the

(31:20):
other person's doing in order tobe worth their love.
'cause they're so great on theother side, it's, I'm just
better and different andmagical.
So it's a weird combination oflike.
They say an aa, the egomaniacwith the inferiority complex.
Right, right, right, right,right, right.
So the hardest part of yourheart, my heart, anybody who's

(31:40):
listening is like, we really canfeel that we're different.
And if anybody listening is in arelationship with people who
they've, their whole lives,they've given so much more than
they've received, which I thinka lot of people will resonate
with.
Mm-hmm.
They have to smile at themselvesand say, I so want this to
change.
And I'm like, Hmm.
Kind of, uh.
Right.
Right.
It's not straightforward tochange that because when we can

(32:02):
help the other person and theother person's really human and
we're magically helping them allthe time, we feel less human.
And we're just like, that's sucha burden to help everybody, but
I'm helping.
Mm-hmm.
But when do I get anything fromme?
Right.
And I'm like, if you getsomething for you, you will be
terrified.
Relate with that.
You'll not be relieved.
You'll be terrified becausesuddenly you're not an expert.

(32:24):
And for the helper holic, theentire identity runs through.
I'm an expert.
Right.
And for me, like I said, it, theproblem is so severe that it
took me five decades to be like,you're good at what you're good
at.
Right?
And there's a class, you'regetting a D minus in.
Can we talk about that class?
Right.

(32:45):
There's a class that you havefailed in.
Can we talk about that class?
Mm-hmm.
And it's kind of like my ego waslike, I got straight A's and I'm
like, yes and an F, can we talkabout the F?
And it was like, no, because nomatter how hard I work at that
F, I'm only ever gonna get a C.
And I had friends be like,that's okay, right?

(33:06):
And I was like, it is, it isokay.
I don't have to be perfect inthat class'cause I can't be.
You've taught me so much aboutthat.
Like permission to not beperfect in every way.
Right?
Right.
See, so we're learning thattogether.
Yeah, that's, I love that.
Why it's like a meeting when youcome in for session, it's like,
what is Javi teaching me today?

(33:27):
It's not like, what do I knowthat I can bestow upon Javi?
It's much more like, see, thisis the first time I'm hearing
this.
'cause for me, it's like I telleverybody every time I go to
him, it's such a transformative,impactful, life changing
experience.
Because it is, but it's, youknow, it's, it's amazing that I,
I could have that effect, butgo, no, I'm stealing insight
from you and charging.

(33:47):
It's a great situation for me.
Good to know.
Good to know.
It's like, yes, I get to dohobby.
Does that mean Andy's pain?
Does that mean I can do halfoff?
I'm I'm giving you two.
Um, no, but it's, yeah, like,you know, and for the longest
time being in that positionwhere you are like different
where you are.
Of special, like you look atother people's experiences

(34:08):
because that's what you do.
Mm.
Right.
That's what you do.
You're the observer.
You're like there to try to seewhere you can fix.
And you, you hear and you seethat people go through all these
things and somehow that wiringgets you to say, you know what?
Like they've been through thingsworse than me.
And like my things were like,what made me feel special?

(34:29):
Mm.
But part of this experience,I've learned like everybody's
story is fully valid.
Like I did not see mine as validbecause I know people who have
experience just way more intensethings, but just'cause they
experienced that doesn't meanmine wasn't just as loud for me.
That's amazing that you can,that you can begin to say that

(34:51):
is the beginning of shifting inyour heart from survival, which
is certainty.
Like we have to have thesedeflective responses.
In order to just be like, well,people go through difficult
things.
Life's tough for everybody.
Come on, everybody.
Like, right, there's something,there's something other people
should think that, right?
Other people should be like,I've gotta stop complaining

(35:11):
about things and I've gottastart to have gratitude for what
I have.
Most people should try to domore of that.
Mm-hmm.
But for people who are havingthis issue of overgiving and
like genuinely are like, theworld's a hurting place.
I want to help.
I want to feel better, I wannabe okay for everybody.
That you would step more towardsyour human.
Good, because you're moving awayfrom the larger picture to the

(35:32):
smaller picture.
Right.
So the kid was kicked out of thesmaller world, into the larger
world by what happened.
Right.
And then he's like the largerworld.
The larger world.
And you'll receive a lot ofcompassion guidance in that
world.
But it's generally gonna belike, come on, come back, come,
come back.
Right.
Come back, come where you'resupposed to be.
You're supposed, you know, it,it's, it's balance.
It's not easy to be, it's noteasy to be Right.

(35:54):
Right.
Like you, like you just in yourheart connected very
courageously to like, oh my God,it, it does matter.
And then for me, the crisis was,wait, if my problems matter,
what is the whole world gonna doabout the problem it has?
And I had people help me belike, I understand where the
question's coming from and thereis genuine concern.

(36:15):
Mm-hmm.
But.
Your addiction is actually thatyou are asking way bigger
questions to get away fromRight.
Your day-to-day mental healthwellbeing.
And that's the thing, it's, it'sa, it seems like such a valid
question, but it's like a Right,no valid question.
It's a really big cosmic concernthat justifies itself, but is

(36:38):
not actually really caring.
And, and that's very confusingfor me.
That's what I've struggled within my life.
It's like, what about the bigquestion?
Right?
Like what about avoidance ofyour own problems?
Oh, right.
And, and that's the thing is Iwas so focused on, you know,
this greater purpose for over adecade and, you know, me
stepping into that and whatnot,to the point where like, you

(36:59):
know, in our last session, whichwas in November, a few months
ago.
Mm-hmm.
You know, one of the things youtold me is.
Which we hear a lot, right?
We're spiritual beings having ahuman experience.
But I hadn't been having thehuman experience.
This was before like I, itsurfaced up that I had gone
through this pain that I didn'trealize was pain, but it was
like, yes, we're hu yes, we'rehumans having the hu Yes, we're

(37:21):
spiritual beings having thehuman experience, but have the
fucking human experience.
And for me it was like, for thefirst time in five months, I
realized a lot.
And one of the things I realizedwas like, holy shit.
Like I.
I'm broken heart.
I'm really fucking brokenhearted.
Wow.
And I've been operating off of abroken heart, and I've been

(37:43):
alchemizing and I've been, andthat's great.
And that's amazing.
Like, I'm so proud of who I'vebecome in these last five
months.
But dude, you're hurting.
Wow.
You're hurting.
And that led me to, to, todiscover and dive into that
inner child or that the, mychildhood experiences and the
feeling, the actual pain andfeeling depressed.

(38:04):
And then a few weeks later, Irealized I haven't just been
heartbroken for the last fivemonths.
I've been heartbroken my wholelife.
Like the one person that Iwanted there for me, my mom, you
know, she, she couldn't, shewas, was working two, sometimes
three jobs.
And that was the most importantperson to me and for her to not

(38:27):
be there.
Since I was a child, she'salways told me, I trust you.
Like you have this, like, matureenergy and all that stuff.
Mm-hmm.
But that was part of the problemis, is you know, I, I respect
you and I always have, and Ialways will because you did what
you had to do to keep food onour table and a roof over our
head.
But the fact that you weren'tthere, things happened.

(38:48):
Things happened.
Yep.
Because I, you know, you, you.
They say like, you, you don'tkeep your kids busy, that you're
gonna find a way to be busy.
You know what I'm saying?
And for somebody who wasn'tgetting that attention Yeah.
Who didn't feel seen, didn'tfeel heard, it's like I, I
embraced those traumaticexperiences.
Right.
I embrace that specialexperience.

(39:08):
And, and now, you know, and, andthroughout my life, like my mom
would completely not act or notdo the same things, but she very
much had to dismiss me so much.
And so it's like, not only froma child, it's like throughout my
life, my heart just keptbreaking and breaking and
breaking.
Mm-hmm.
And so it took me, I think threeweeks after our session, I, I

(39:31):
had to, I had to, I had to dothat.
Like we were, like we weretalking about, or we were
talking about earlier.
It's that generational healing.
For me it was like a lot ofpeople would not speak up about
this, but I have.
Through this, through divinginto this healing, I've been
given, for lack of a betterword, this gift of this

(39:52):
conscious awareness of likeunderstanding.
Like if I don't work on thisbroken heart mm-hmm.
Like I'm still gonna be carryingthe weight of that.
And, and so to have thisbeautiful discussion with my mom
that I, never, I never thoughtin this lifetime I would be able

(40:12):
to have, was so healing for bothof us.
Wow.
Okay.
Because for her, she resistedvulnerability.
She's gone through so muchtrauma.
And again, like, I'm gonna sayit, but I'm probably saying it
from that old way of thinking,but like a lot of the trauma she
went through and the, throughthe stories that she would tell
me, it's like way worse thanwhat I went through.

(40:32):
Right.
But either way, it's.
Both are valid.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And so for her, she just learnedto but to study how the mind
does comparisons and says wayworse.
Right.
Right.
We're we're really dealing with,you know, that you were more
aware of her trauma the wholetime than she was ever aware of
anything you were going through.
Mm-hmm.

(40:52):
Like you were that young kid andafter that happened to you, like
you didn't think, I'll go to herand say, is this okay?
Because you didn't sense thatshe was okay enough to hear
that.
Right.
You didn't go to her with aquestion about your experience
because you didn't want to be aburden.
Right.
So your whole life as her child,you've been more aware of her
trauma.
So of course her trauma is morethan you went through because

(41:13):
you were hardwired since youwere a kid, to be the person who
was gonna care about her.
Were you the oldest?
No, I'm the, I'm the youngest.
The youngest?
Yeah.
How many years Separat separatedbetween the siblings?
Oh, so my brother's eight yearsolder than me and my sister is
six years older than me.
So this is a good gap of time.
It is, yeah.
And so that's why like even atthis time where I'm growing up

(41:33):
we have a different relationshipwith my mom.
They grew up with my mom in thehousehold.
So they tell my mom everything.
Hmm.
I didn't grow up my mom with, Igrew up with my mom sometimes
not seeing her for days.
'cause she would go on theseinventory trips and for work.
I don't want to, I, so when yousay, my mom went through more
than me, you're like, oh, no,no.

(41:55):
So notice how the helper's like,no, no, no, no, no.
I'm, I'm the one that's gonnasay who went through more or
less, but I'm not going to havethe person notice that I went
through something.
Right.
And that's, that's our healing.
Our healing is, hey, you wentthrough something and, It took
me 25 years of working withpeople to be ready to work with

(42:16):
like helping you.
Right.
So remember like I had to gothrough a lot of my own stumbles
and stuff.
So I guess what I'm trying tosay and what people can notice
is that it's very hard.
You've done an incredibleservice to someone by being
like, man, it's really hard toknow.
But anyone watching would belike, wow, he's great.
I can't believe we went throughthat.
I really care that, that's sosad that he went through that.

(42:37):
And what you and I would bothfeel is like we're not used to
someone noticing Mm.
That we went through something.
Right.
Ah, so it's actually.
While we wanna be good ateverything, it's very, very
uncomfortable.
And that's why the system islike, you had the courage,
we're, we're talking about you.
You're putting yourself outthere.
I'm not like saying, here's whatI went through.
And then you're like, oh mygosh, really?

(42:57):
And like, so you're the onewho's courageous today.
And I'm just sort of watchingthat and everyone gets a chance
to see that.
But it's so courageous to dothat and show them how we react
to hearing a little bit abouther story.
Right.
And you're doing a great jobbeing like.
Wow.
It was complex.
Yep.
I'm strong.
I want to understand it, but itdefinitely did affect me and it
affected me because I want to beable to decide what everything

(43:18):
is.
I don't always wanna feel howthings actually feel.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
I don't want to be shown whatsomething is.
Mm.
It is like the, the real healingstuff, like you asked that main
question, like the real healingstuff is just.
The fucking worst.
It's just, it's so not easy.
It's, I, listen, I tell peoplelike, it's no fun.
There's nothing about it that'sdelightful.
It's just not easy for like adecade or for over a decade.

(43:40):
I thought, you know, you know,you do this healing and you jump
into like your own, you know,your inner work, your
spirituality, and it's like,life feels like you're living
above everything else, right?
Yeah.
Or not above, like in a betterway, but yeah, above it's like
you have this grand awarenessand so you don't have to be that
angry human that's, you know,stressed all the time.

(44:02):
But my condolences to myself andto anyone who dives into this
deeper work, because it isembracing the pain.
Mm-hmm.
It is like fully, um, beinguncomfortable.
And, and with that, I will saythere's a lot of, um, it gives
you more conscious awareness,but it also gives you, it gives

(44:24):
me, um.
I think a better connection to,to everyone else.
So I, to me, the work isabsolutely worth it.
But it can fucking suck.
Yeah, it suck.
It can suck and it hurts.
And now I see like why peoplerun from it.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
It's like, why are you running?
Like, it's amazing, but no, likeit's sometimes it's, you just

(44:47):
have to accept that it's notamazing.
And if anything, it's taught meto like, at this point in my
life, because I still feel likeI am in a season of, of.
Of some intense inner work.
It's, it's a day by daysituation.
Like I used to feel like I hadto have my life figured out.

(45:09):
I used to feel like I had tohave my grand purpose figured
out.
And at this point I'm like, dayby fucking day.
Like, like make sure you're notonly healthy right.
But make sure you're well.
Mm-hmm.
And make sure that're you'reready to take that step into
interdependence.
Now what's starting to happen isyou're starting to realize,
like, like we said, theSuperman's Real and the Clark
Kent's Real, and what'shappening is your human is

(45:30):
coming up being likeinterdependence.
Right?
My life up until now was a solosuperhero movie.
The rest of my life needs to bean Avengers movie where I like
meet other people that are likethat.
Right.
That are different anddifferently gifted because it's
true.
Yeah.
I mean, we're not gonna save theworld at all, so don't worry.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, or rather worry, but justlet it go.
Like we're not, we're.

(45:50):
The Avengers are not going tosave the world in the case of
like, you are exceptional andyou need to meet more people who
are like you.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
We know that if everyone in theworld was like you, it'd be a
very different world.
That's true.
Because they'd be thinking aboutothers and we don't see that.
Right?
Right.
We see, you know, we seedocumentaries on serial killers.
We see, we see stories ofsomeone who decided it was okay

(46:11):
to kill 15 people or bury peoplein their basement.
Right.
So I watch that stuff a lot tobe like, what do people do?
And then I watched like wars andother things, and I'm like, what
are we generally doing in thisworld?
And then I realized like, okay,this is very exceptional.
What we're talking about isexceptional.
So if you claim within yourselfthe solo superhero that you've
been in your life, know thatlife wants you to have an

(46:34):
Avengers movie where you meetother people that are like you,
that can allow you to be morehuman and you can allow them to
be more human.
And then it goes better.
Mm.
Right.
So that's really what we canmaybe offer Anyone who's
listening is like, this is avery, it's a very not important
group'cause we're not gonna doanything really.

(46:55):
Wow.
Right, right, right.
But, but we are going to, we, wehave a right to meet people who
I.
Have an ability.
And that's what most helperholics don't believe.
They don't believe that they canever meet anyone.
I, I would bet that a lot ofpeople listening are the
exceptional person, theexceptional people in their
lives.
And they're like, but it'sdifferent for me and I love
everyone and my family, and Ilove everyone here, and I've

(47:17):
gotta take care of everyone.
And each of them would feel whatyou and I feel, which is, that's
what I'm different that way.
It's really different for me.
Hmm.
And it's like, yeah.
Um, that's why it's a meeting.
What are you hiding in plainsight?
Like Right, right, right.
What we would say to them isthat we are all scared, just

(47:37):
like you are, of meetingsomething that shows us that
we're normal and we're humantoo.
Right.
That is our death sentence.
Right.
I learned that I was normal andthat I didn't know how to ask
for what I needed and that IRight.
That I, for me, it's like Inever got to be, um, safe
enough.
And so later on in life it waslike, how many limits could I

(47:58):
push if someone loved or caredabout me?
Like how far could I push themand know they were still going
to love me?
Mm-hmm.
How much could I destroy?
And then be like, oh, yourdiaper is full.
Let's clean you up.
And I realized like, what partof me needed to make such a mess
at different times in my life,just to have people be like,
that's okay.

(48:19):
Right.
I'll make the mess that youmade.
Totally.
Okay.
And I was fortunate enough tohave many people in my life who
got me through.
A whole bunch of personal diaperchanges where I was, you know,
like a little 2-year-old, right.
I'll destroy everything.
And it's like, no, you're 30,you're 40 years old.
Like, right.
This is not okay.
And I had people who werereally, you know, able to show

(48:42):
up and be like, you're deeplyhuman.
Right.
Right.
Speaking about being deeplyhuman, I just have to, uh, add
to my parking real quick.
Um, but so in general, like howdo you, how have you found
diving into this?
How, how do you find thataffects people's relationships

(49:03):
with others or maybe even, youknow mm-hmm.
Seeing myself or, or throughyour experience.
Right.
Because, you know, I want to tiethis all into, like, this is
part of like, um, I.
A part of being built for love,right?
It's like we're born into thisworld.
That's what we want, right?
Mm-hmm.
We want love, and we want tolove, but life takes us through

(49:27):
all these experiences.
Okay.
And you know, at, at some point,whether you're aware of it or
not, you know, you can findyourself being feeling unworthy
of love.
Hmm.
So, but that, that doesn't justshow up romantically.
That shows up platonically aswell for a lot of people.
So how have you seen, you knowmm-hmm.
This work?
Mm-hmm.

(49:48):
I think, um, what we talkedabout, about the idea that we,
we tend to think in hierarchies,right?
So, um, we seek out the experts.
Mm-hmm.
We seek out the people that wethink know more.
And then the helper in us candelight in knowing more and
being like, and here's theinformation that you needed.

(50:11):
And I think the humility of itis more like.
If we knew that everyone comingtogether was actually at a
helper holic meeting, right?
Like a sponsor in AA is a personwho's been in aa.
Right.
It's not a person who's neverhad a problem with alcohol.
Right.
And so we have to remember, Ithink that healing has to feel
like a meeting.
Healing has to feel like we'reall going through the same thing

(50:34):
in our own little way.
That's the same.
And hierarchy needs to be let goof, and the equality of what we
go through is what we have toembrace.
Hmm.
So I would say a lot of people,again, that might listen or are
curious are people who areseeking out connection, like you
said.
Yeah.
And seeking out a sense ofbalance in their connections.
They want to have it, they wantto have the experience.

(50:58):
Um, and we're kind of trying tobe here for them to be like,
welcome to the meeting.
Like, we're all in the sameboat.
Right.
And it's okay to be really,really good at things and then
to slowly learn that you knowthat you're.
Also learning from those humanconnections, like you said,
platonically, like, how do Irisk this?
How do I risk not being anexpert?
Hmm.
Right.
It's, it's frustrating because Idon't know how you feel, but you

(51:20):
know, we can both feel itsometimes where we're like, I go
into the room and I know what'sgoing on.
Right.
And my, my, my job is to knowwhat's going on.
And it's like, yeah.
Where you do.
Okay.
Right.
But what about the rest?
Yeah.
But I would just say based onwhat you shared about healing,
um, and for everybody kind oflike listening, most of the

(51:40):
people listening will be peoplewho are doing an exceptional
job, who want to be morethoughtful and understanding.
Otherwise, why would theydedicate time to learning more
about it?
Right.
So we're trying to help thosepeople that are reaching out
through your podcast to be like,they're probably overdoing in
their relationships andwondering how the other person
could do more, but the otherperson doesn't seem capable of

(52:01):
doing more.
So what we might help them withis like, it's scary to meet an
equal.
It is very scary to ask forbetter things in your life.
Yeah, and so the challenge ofhealing, as I understand it, is
embracing truly interdependenceand that if there is a plan,
it's a plan for people to meetpeople that are able to actually
see them, right?
Not to have them be a givingtree and take care of people

(52:23):
until they die.
Hmm.
And you and I can fall prey tothe same thing, right?
Right.
We're gonna be like, no, thatneeds to be this way.
That needs to be this way.
So we can totally havecompassion for every person
who's like, no, it needs to bethis way, and I don't care and I
don't wanna talk about it.
And know that we have parts ofus that are the same.
Right.
So, which I think that thatgives you a lot of, at least for

(52:43):
me, it's given me a lot ofclarity.
I mean, I've, I, the wordboundaries was thrown around,
you know, my whole life.
I hear, you know, I've heardthat, what that was, but not up
until these last few months didI really realize what boundaries
were for me.
Yeah.
And it's like you were startingto learn a lot about how people
overwhelm your boundaries andfeel entitled to Right.
If you ain't nourishing me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(53:04):
I, there's no way I can pourinto you like you're finally
standing up for that boy.
Right.
Like, you don't get to take, youdon't get to meet your needs
without my permission.
Right.
You, you know, I understand youhave a feeling and an
experience, but I'm not, Iwasn't sent by the universe to
make sure you're okay, so I canbe a conduit to you getting what
you want.
Right.
And so many of those people willlook at you and be like, that's
why you're here.
And you'll be like, no.

(53:25):
That's how you put an end to theabuse pattern is like you don't
get to continue to do that.
Yeah.
There's a truth in that.
Lots of truth.
So for those who are listeningand resonating with this, what
are some simple but powerfulways they can start to, or start
reconnecting with themselves andtheir bodies today?

(53:46):
Um, you know, everyone's processis very personal and, um, you
know, there, there are thingslike we talked about, right?
Like, you've done things I wouldnever do, like you've done plant
medicines and other things thatI would be like, no, I'm I, my
trauma and my issues would be, Iwould have an episode or a

(54:10):
problem if I did those things.
Like I would be the person thatkilled the people there, like
I've done good sweat lodges andother things like that.
I've done different things.
So I never want to pretend thatlike there's stuff I would do
and someone might say, you'dreally benefit from that.
And I'd be like, I'm not gonnado it.
And someone watching might belike, you really should do that.

(54:32):
You really need that.
And that's what I wanna remindpeople of is like, I'm not
saying anybody should becomfortable doing anything.
I, I could be just as arrogantwith breath work and other
things because I could do 80minutes of it at one point,
right.
And be like, it's all energy.
It's all energy.
And I'm like, yeah.
But I guess what I would say iseveryone's process is very

(54:54):
personal and it's verydifficult.
I would say that there is formany people, um, a way that we
can get sort of tangled.
I had a client who I, who wantedto come in every week, and I
should have seen it.
I should have been like, come inonce a month because this
particular client was gonnareally wanna work on his stuff.

(55:17):
And if we, if we kept going weekafter week, I was like, Hmm, no.
And what ended up happening waswe kept doing the sessions week
after week and I'm, and I keptbringing up the issues to work
on.
And what I learned was, youknow, like what I didn't wanna
admit to myself, which was thisperson is way more interested in

(55:38):
staying angry about these thingsthan he is interested about
changing any of this.
He wants to tell himself that hewants to change it, but actually
his commitment to his anger isway more.
Right.
So there's a minority in his, inhis people.
Right, right.
In his country of self.
There is a, there is a minorityof people that are like, we

(56:01):
would like to be less angry andforgive and be more wise and not
be so defensive or have as manyissues about our bodies or our
life or whatever.
But the majority running that islike, no.
We're staying angry.
We're resenting people that hurtus.
We're gonna stay mad at mom anddad.

(56:21):
We are gonna stay really, reallyangry.
Right?
And the idea is that if you'renot angry, you're not validating
the person's position.
That's where we butt heads,because I was like, and it's
hilarious'cause it's kind ofhypocritical.
I'm like, oh, I was, I wasenraged for many, many years.
Why would I judge his rage?
Mm-hmm.
And you just realize like, maybeit's my desire for connection

(56:43):
that wants to help him see thatlike all this anger is blocking.
But I was really trying to makehim make a connection and I
wanted to keep seeing himinstead of saying, it's gonna be
too much, we have to back off.
And I got it wrong.
And he was like, it's toointense to do this.
It's like, and I wanted to sortof say, no, it's not too
intense.
It's that you are, you're notinterested in actually having

(57:05):
any of this change.
You're interested in and you'reinterested in saying you wanted
to change.
And part of him could comethrough and be exhausted with
how angry he was and sad.
And he could glimpse it and Iwas like, oh, it's there.
He sees it.
And it was like, no, the anger'sgonna win for right now.
And that's an example of a lifewhere the anger might win
forever.
And this life.

(57:27):
It happens.
It does happen.
It absolutely happens.
Yeah.
Oh, look around.
It happens a lot, right?
No, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I guess I would justchallenge people to, you know,
yep.
Breath can help, body work canhelp finding their way to
something, noticing things inthemselves that, that are
uncomfortable.
Um, but yeah, different peoplecan find different answers.

(57:49):
Meditation, like you said,different things.
Everyone is so sure about thevalue of each thing, but people
gotta find their own path.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I love that.
Well, Kevin, this conversationhas been incredibly powerful and
there's so much wisdom in what,you know, we've shared in the
conversations we've had today.
I know our listeners are gonnatake a lot from it.
Uh, but before we close out, isthere anything else you'd like

(58:10):
to share to, with the listeners,whether it's a final thought, a
piece of advice, or somethingyou wanna leave other than what
you've just shared?
Um, it's been great.
Thanks so much for being willingto do it.
I guess I would say, you know,to every person out there, I
think a lot of the people thatwe're talking to are people that

(58:32):
are really strong in theirlives, and so I would just sort
of thank them for being that.
Mm.
And thank them for the effortsthat they make, um, because
their thoughtfulness, um, weneed a pandemic of
thoughtfulness in our world.
And I'm not gonna hold my breathfor it, but I like, I like the

(58:54):
idea that there's a handful ofpeople out there that are like,
wait, how can we do this alittle bit better?
Right.
So I would, I would say thankyou, you know, for those of you
listening who are trying to dothis a bit better, because if
you look around, that is not acommon thing.
Well, I absolutely appreciateyou.
Sharing, you know, um, your,your, what goes on in your mind

(59:18):
and, and how you see everything.
You know, for me, I, I am avery, what I would say, I'm
always, I'm always constantlylooking to expand my
spirituality.
And I find that in our sessions,um, it very much does like a
huge impact on that in, in thebest of ways, in the deepest of

(59:38):
ways and in, in the mostchallenging ways.
But I, I, it's an expansionagain, and, you know, I've sent
several people your way.
Yeah, yeah.
Thank you for that.
And everybody's experience isdifferent.
And I appre what I appreciatefrom the distance is how you, I
don't know how you do it, buthow you are able to tailor each

(01:00:01):
experience based off of likewhat, you know, for lack of a
better word, and not to offendanybody, but the capacity that
they have.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, it's, it's a very.
Unique experience for everyonewhere it's like, my first
experience, and I don't say thisto scare anybody, I say this
like, it was amazing, but it'slike I cried like, yeah, yeah,

(01:00:22):
yeah.
95% of the time.
No, no, no.
That's that, that, again,that's, you know, that's part of
the, the same thing I talkedabout, about the ayahuasca.
Like at different stages of mywork, I have become really
ungrounded and sometimesproductively ungrounded and also
destructively.
Ungrounded.
And you were kind of meeting meat a time where I.

(01:00:43):
That was hitting an apex for me.
Mm-hmm.
So like our last few sessionsare different.
Right.
The last couple sessions aredifferent because part of what I
was healing was you can't justmake every single thing happen
in one moment.
Mm-hmm.
And so on one level, you weresomehow ready for that.
And I'm grateful because likeduring that time when you're
like, you know, a human tsunami,right?

(01:01:06):
Or you're like a volcano ismaking room for new land, it's
like, it's also destroyingeverything.
Right.
You know, in my own life I havehad to go through many cycles
that I eventually had to look atand be like.
Okay.
You need to just, you need toslow this down for you.
And that's what you and othershave helped me learn too, as we
go through really intensethings.

(01:01:27):
Right.
But, but the shape shiftingthing you're talking about where
you try to tune into what theperson really resonates with, I
do think that that's a, abeautiful capacity for all of us
to try to cultivate is a littlebit more of those mirror neurons
empathy thing.
Mm-hmm.
Where we try to care a littlebit more accurately about what
we're going through.
Right.
And so definitely for me it waslike I want to see others the

(01:01:48):
way that, that, um, maybe weweren't seen.
Right.
We can both feel that.
Right.
And I think a lot of peoplelistening will be like, yeah, I
want, our dream is to be seenthe way that we see others.
And, um, it's why I would reallylike, you know, that experience
of doing this with you becauseI'd be like, oh, he's about the
same thing and we need toencourage that.
And yeah, that's what I wouldjust, I would just say is, um,

(01:02:12):
really cool about what, what youbring.
But you're right.
Like it's very different foreverybody and.
It also is called a practice fora reason.
'cause you're learning.
Yeah.
And you know, again, I'm, I'm aquarter of a century into this
practice and I'm most, I knowfar less now at 50 than.

(01:02:35):
I did a few years back.
Right.
That guy was way more intohimself and his rightness.
And I recorded a bunch of stuffand I wrote a bunch of stuff,
and all of it was very, veryright.
And, and it was, it was likebeing on a binge or a bender.
It's, it is, it's like aconsciousness bender.
You've taken me to that work ofI thought I had my life figured

(01:02:58):
out.
And then it's like, you don'tknow shit.
And that's okay.
That's okay.
That's absolutely okay.
It's never, you don't know shit.
It, it's that, it's that, lookat all the ass you get, right?
And then there's this classwhere it's a C minus and it's
like, it's like, but a though,and it's like, yeah, but the,
but the trying to have thatcontrol of figuring it all out
by yourself.

(01:03:18):
Yeah.
It's not gonna happen.
but I think that's a, the coolthing about this conversation,
and I'll end it with thismm-hmm.
On my side of it, which is, I ama life and love architect, uh,
life coach, spiritual coach.
Um, and so I do have many toolsand I.
Lots of wisdom to help othersheal, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's like, I, I can't physicallydo the work for you, but I can

(01:03:40):
guide you through that.
Mm-hmm.
Just like yourself.
But this is a community, like wehave the people that nourish us
and that heal us as well.
And that's where like, I'm, I'mgrateful for that.
And that's, yeah.
I want surround myself and thoseare the people that I look to
learn even more from, are theones that are, are visibly still
healing, right.

(01:04:00):
Because that's how you know.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Yeah, there's some type of paththere, right?
That we come into their world ashumble beings that are just
like, here's, here's how it'sgoing for us, right?
And how's it going for you?
Right?
Rather than as experts, right?
With the tablets.
And here is what we, here iswhat is truth.
And here is right.
Here's what is healing.
And, and if you'd done this twoyears ago with me or whatever,

(01:04:20):
it would've been much more.
And here's what is true andhere's what is this, and here's
because I needed that for me,but, but there's no successful
formula that's gonna work foreveryone.
No.
At all.
Like each and every one of yourjourneys is.
Is unique and, and valid.
I, I, I'll say that.
So, uh, for those of you, and ifyou need help with it, you can

(01:04:41):
find us.
You can find him.
You can find me.
Whatever you, yes.
So if you're feeling And only usforever, wait, no.
We're the only experts.
Here's the surprise cultmeetings.
Suddenly it's just us.
No, it's Find the people, you'llfind people around you.
But if you are having troublewith that, yes.
Reach out to Javi or whatever,let us know and we'll, we'll try
to help.
If you wanna explore that deeperwork or if you wanna connect

(01:05:02):
with Kevin.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you can email us at Builtfor Love [e-mail] and
you can also reach out to us on,do you have a longer email maybe
that they, they could send it toBuilt For Love podcast.
The only healers, uh, no, uh,helper holics at aol slash yahoo
slash gmail.

(01:05:22):
Kidding.
Do gov dog Exactly.
Dot gov.
That's a big one, right?
Trust us.
We're a.gov.
That's right.
That's right.
All right.
Uh, so, uh, repeat, repeat theactual emails.
It is Built For Love podcast atGmail.
Yeah.
Built for [e-mail].
Um, but again, thank you.
Thank you so much, Kevin.
I'm so surprised that wasavailable.
Right, right.

(01:05:44):
I know.
I was like, I'm gonna call thisboat for love.
That's gotta be taken.
It wasn't, and I'm like, okay.
All right.
I'm grateful onto to something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, but yeah, so thank you againfor sharing your wisdom and, uh,
you know, the work that you do.
You do.
I, I appreciate you and.
You know, just how much you'vehelped me on my journey, and you
know, how we were able to havethis conversation for others.

(01:06:04):
And to those of you listening, Ihope this episode gave you some
new perspective, differentoutlook on what healing really
is and why.
Understanding yourself, yourpatterns, your nervous system,
your core beliefs is one of themost important things you can do
in your life.
And because at the end of theday, healing isn't just about
us.
It's about how we show up in theworld.

(01:06:25):
It's about how we love, how weconnect, and how we hold space
for others.
The more we heal, the more weallow ourselves to love freely,
without fear, withoutprojection, without the weight
of the past holding us back.
So if you're on your own journeyof healing and transformation,
remember this love isn'tsomething we chase.
It's something we're built.

(01:06:46):
We are, we are.
Sorry.
Love isn't something we chase,it's something we're built for.
All right, y'all sending you alllove and I'll catch you in the
next episode of Built For Love.