September 15, 2025 • 17 mins
⏰ Ever feel like if you were only born in a different time, burnout wouldn't be a problem? This week, Caitlan and Lyndie dive into what life was like in one of the most peaceful jobs in the 12th century. Or was it?
Learn more from Daniele Cybulskie in their book "How To Live Like A Monk: Medieval Wisdom For Modern Life"
https://www.danielecybulskie.com/monk
📗 Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book and on a hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at https://caitlantrewhella.com/
📙 Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach and licensed Therapist, and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and spill the tea. I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
And I'm Caitlin. Trujela creativity coach.
(00:25):
And speaker, we. Are your hosts and thank you for
joining us here in the Burnout Break Room.
Hi, Caitlin. How you doing?
Hey Lindy, I'm doing good. How are you?
Not bad, not bad. What's been going on with you?
I am happy to have been doing a lot more reading.
I I say a lot more as if I'm notusually buried in like.
(00:48):
Six different books. At a time, but definitely taking
the summer as an opportunity to read more.
I may have mentioned this beforein another episode.
But. Having come out of getting my
English degree, my my goal was to reconnect with genres and
(01:13):
types. Of books that I like to read.
What? What?
Is my preferred, you know, reading genre because.
Before I. Wouldn't have been been able to
ask answer that question. Well, there you go.
And Speaking of books, Caitlin, it sounds as if you have a very
(01:33):
exciting book to be sharing withus that sheds a lot of new and
very old light on burnout and burnout research.
Yes. So I have.
Been mulling over and percolating over some research
that I came across. Because one.
Of the nonfiction works that I was looking at, and honestly not
(01:56):
even with any intention of finding out about more about
burnout. So this was an unexpected.
Positive result but I have. Here, Danielle.
Sibyluski's book How to Live. Like a monk.
Medieval wisdom for modern life.Oh, that looks.
Fun yes. And I, I will tell you one of
(02:19):
the things that I have been really interested in learning
more about is the difference between discipline and devotion.
Because so much of the time whenwe set goals, we tend to look at
them. I I especially think of like New
Year's resolutions, you know, we.
Start these goals with such. Fervor and with.
(02:41):
Such high. Expectations for what we want to
achieve, how we're going to get there, and, you know, we're
going to come through. The other side.
Being the. Best at said.
Thing and of course motivation is.
Really difficult to. Maintain, not to mention energy
levels and balancing all the other things we have in our life
(03:04):
at the same time. And so, yeah, looking at the
difference between how we approach those situations,
whether it's. Through a very.
Regimented, disciplined approach.
Or you know, and again, depending on the goal.
Do we approach it with? Devotion because when you have
devotion for. A a goal or.
(03:28):
Something that you want to achieve the the inherent
motivation in. That approach is through love.
So this is essentially what brought me to wanting to learn
more about the monastic lifestyle and also allow me.
To just preface this as well. This is not intended to have
(03:50):
any. Particular religious.
Message or religious bent and let me also.
Say that. Not only in the research.
But as we talked about this. Monk does as a position does
usually. Refer to a.
Male position, but please know that.
We have of. Course are including everyone in
(04:12):
in this experience and even historically there were many
different positions. That applied to.
Different folks being, you know,men and women.
So please rest assured. We we are including everyone in
this perspective. Yes, absolutely.
I mean, it sounds fascinating, Caitlin.
So this idea of committing to something through love, through
(04:35):
devotion reminds me a little bitof of what in therapy we when we
talk about change and specifically a lifestyle change,
right? There's the, the research shows
that it is a multi stage processthat tends to be cyclic.
And part of change is, you know,in, in substance use, they, they
(05:00):
use the term relapse, but often part of changes is going back to
old behaviors and then, you know, learning how to return
back to the new way of life. But one of the things that I
think can be so helpful when, when talking about changes, that
one of the biggest stages that tends to take up a lot of time
(05:22):
and energy is the maintenance stage.
And, and this applies to any change, right?
Whether it's changing exercise habits or changing work habits,
this, these stages of change apply.
And so when I work with folks through the, the maintenance
stage, it's, it's sometimes monotonous, sometimes it's
(05:44):
boring, sometimes it's frustrating, definitely not
exciting as the, the preparationstage or the action stage of
change, there's usually a lot ofsupport from folks.
There's usually a lot of adrenaline.
And it, it's reminding me of this idea that if you know, if
you want change, it's usually the things that you are devoted
(06:06):
to. When there's devotion to
something, then there might be alittle bit of an easier time
getting through those more difficult stages.
Definitely, and the the point ofsupport that you mentioned too.
Is is such a big part of that aswell because these.
These things don't happen in a vacuum.
(06:28):
And I'm, I'm sure there's a overwhelming, you know, research
on this as well, but when, when,when we work.
Towards a goal. As a community or like when you
have some other form of outside support, even people.
Who are just aware of what? You're doing and you know you
can talk. To about it.
Has, you know, tremendous impacton not only the, you know,
(06:52):
achieving the goal. Itself, but.
Main that maintenance that you're talking about.
Through. Through all those.
Stages, because and even the book on perfection that I
mentioned. Previously The Perfectionist
Guide to Letting Go I believe isthe exact title of the book.
They talk about this too, that with certain types of.
Perfection. The A lot of the motivation
(07:13):
comes from starting, but as soonas the starting has passed and
the that initial excitement wears.
Off. It's much more difficult to
maintain so and to to the point of community as well.
One of the interesting points that I found in the.
Study of the. The monks practice.
(07:37):
Is. How often times the these
communities you know were? Established for for that purpose
because. In order to maintain a
monastery. It required a lot of people.
Because even though. They would.
Say for example, like maintain their own gardens, have very
obviously very humble living quarters, they still had to
(08:00):
maintain the the area and so everyone.
Had prescribed duties. That they needed to accomplish.
Throughout the day. In addition to.
Their devotion practices, whether that was.
Different religious services or doing their prayers or acting.
As a support. For the community, visiting the
(08:23):
sick, feeding the poor, spendingtime with, you know, the the
elderly, everyone had different roles and responsibilities.
But what I was absolutely. Astonished to find Lindy.
Is that the? Concept of burnout and needing
to take a break from their work was even present in these
(08:48):
monasteries in the 12th and 13thcenturies.
There's there's records. Of this and so for anyone who is
feeling. Trapped by the.
Modern lifestyle and the. The state of.
Our current society, please knowthat you are not alone and.
(09:17):
That as as. Humans we have been, you know,
dealing with the the personal maintenance of.
Of this state for. Centuries in this research, one
of the ever present. Aspects of life.
In the monastery was time with nature, and I'll read you a
(09:41):
quote here from Albertus Magnus that says nothing refreshes the.
Site. So much as fine short grass.
So as I mentioned before, all ofthe members of a monastery would
have different duties and responsibilities, and one of
those responsibilities was maintaining their gardens, which
(10:04):
is also interesting because it was not often seen as.
A a chore. Because working with the land,
working in the gardens. Whether it was?
For harvesting their their vegetables and their food, or
simply by maintaining the gardens, it was often a an
enviable. Task to to have as a part of
(10:26):
your schedule because. It was so renewing, but even
even to that recognition of having the element of nature in.
Your everyday life. Monks still were not immune to
burnout in general, one of the things that is mentioned in the
(10:47):
ancient monastic. Rule is this.
Individual rule itself. And when I say rule, I mean
RULE. So literally rules to live by.
It says. Keep.
Yourselves in such. Rest.
That long thereafter ye may labor the more vigorously in
God's service. And so.
(11:09):
There was the. Recognition that rest is
necessary not only to maintain the body, mind and spirit.
But also supports. The vigor needed.
To pursue your. Goals and of course in in this
case the the goal being religious, but this this can
(11:31):
apply much, much farther than that and so.
For the leaders. In these monastic.
Groups if they saw. That anyone in the community was
experiencing any kind of burnout, the regimen or the
recommended. Practice was.
Not to go deeper into. Their prayers.
(11:53):
Or deeper into. The the word or.
To do more in the community it was for complete.
Rest more walks throughout the. Garden more.
Literally just more. Sleep as well.
And. The fact that this.
Was not branded as laziness. Or a lack of.
(12:15):
Of devotion or, you know, motivation to their goal.
I think speaks so tremendously to this continued recognition of
the need for rest in all practices.
Absolutely. And it's, it's surprising to
hear because I think, well, a part of me never thought of the
(12:39):
monastic practice as being an easy life.
It certainly seems like 1 where you would just, I think a part
of me felt like, oh, you would just leave the world and leave
society and then you wouldn't have to deal with stress.
So it is fascinating to know that even then, before probably
(12:59):
the concept of stress as as we know it now, or definitely the
concept of burnout as we know itnow, was part of the
conversation. That people.
Were looking out for the signs. Caitlin, how would you take some
of these things and apply them to modern life?
I would say the most. Applicable part of.
(13:20):
This, from a modern lens, is also being.
Aware of how? You're spending your time.
Because. I feel like one of the most
difficult things to maintain balance with in modern life.
Is. The amount of.
Goals that. You know we, we are.
Expected to have. You know you have to maintain
(13:41):
your. Physical health.
Your mental. Health.
Your career, your. Personal relationships and then
especially if you're an ambitious person by any degree,
there's, you know, you have personal bucket lists and and
things like that. So I think the recognition that
everything happens in its own time, to everything there is a
(14:06):
season and so. We have to.
I think even just recognizing that, you know, we have.
To give ourselves. Time to.
To do. All of the things in in the
context. For which they serve.
I think. Is a.
Really a really important thing to remember.
(14:30):
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much.
It's it's such a fascinating study.
And again, what is the name of the book again?
And the author? It is how to live.
Like a Monk. Medieval Wisdom for Modern Life
by Danielle Sibyluski, and I apologize if I'm pronouncing
their name incorrectly, but yeah.
This was a. Really interesting read.
(14:52):
With a lot. Of references from.
As as I said before, like. Ancient texts and even
individual stories from practicing monks and and folks
practicing. That lifestyle, but.
Also the consideration that wentinto making that choice as well
because when first joining. This this lifestyle.
(15:16):
And making, you know, taking. These vows it.
Was taken so. Seriously.
That. In the first.
Year they were there, they had the.
Option to leave and as on a. On a final note, I think that's
another thing to remember for modern life as well.
(15:36):
Nobody likes being a quitter. Nobody likes, you know, thinking
that they wasted their time witha particular.
Goal or practice, but it takes alot of bravery.
To, to quit something, but ultimately, if it's not serving
you or if it's taking more than you are getting out of it, to
(15:56):
continue pursuing something thatthat's not serving you is the
same as being irresponsible for,for your own self-care.
So, so I I guess then today's message is don't be afraid to
quit. Be a quitter.
Right. You heard it here first.
(16:21):
Yes, Come on in. The water's warm.
Quitting's great. Right.
But thank you, Lindy for joiningme on this.
Stroll through the. Monastic garden grounds when?
When we are not sharing monasticresearch in the break room,
(16:42):
where can people find you? Well, it might not be as
enlightening, but lindylarimore.com you can find
more about my coaching practice,my consulting practice.
I'm helping individuals and businesses help prevent burnout,
recover from burnout, and createspaces where burnout is no
(17:04):
longer an issue. Caitlin, what about you?
Where can we find you when you're not sharing your wisdom
in the break room? You can find me at my brand new
website caitlintruehella.com andAS.
Well, as social. Media I'm on TikTok, Instagram
and. A lot of the, A lot of the.
(17:25):
Others for anyone who is lookingfor author.
Support either with. Book editing.
Or. General creative support.
I do. Ideation Sessions.
As well as creative. Coaching as well, so either
reach out to me through socials or send me an e-mail.
I would love to support you. Well, thank you so much,
Caitlin. Thank you, Lindy.
(17:46):
Until next time. Till next time.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and spill the tea. I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
And I'm Caitlin. Trujela creativity coach.
(00:25):
And speaker, we. Are your hosts and thank you for
joining us here in the Burnout Break Room.
Hi, Caitlin. How you doing?
Hey Lindy, I'm doing good. How are you?
Not bad, not bad. What's been going on with you?
I am happy to have been doing a lot more reading.
I I say a lot more as if I'm notusually buried in like.
(00:48):
Six different books. At a time, but definitely taking
the summer as an opportunity to read more.
I may have mentioned this beforein another episode.
But. Having come out of getting my
English degree, my my goal was to reconnect with genres and
(01:13):
types. Of books that I like to read.
What? What?
Is my preferred, you know, reading genre because.
Before I. Wouldn't have been been able to
ask answer that question. Well, there you go.
And Speaking of books, Caitlin, it sounds as if you have a very
(01:33):
exciting book to be sharing withus that sheds a lot of new and
very old light on burnout and burnout research.
Yes. So I have.
Been mulling over and percolating over some research
that I came across. Because one.
Of the nonfiction works that I was looking at, and honestly not
(01:56):
even with any intention of finding out about more about
burnout. So this was an unexpected.
Positive result but I have. Here, Danielle.
Sibyluski's book How to Live. Like a monk.
Medieval wisdom for modern life.Oh, that looks.
Fun yes. And I, I will tell you one of
(02:19):
the things that I have been really interested in learning
more about is the difference between discipline and devotion.
Because so much of the time whenwe set goals, we tend to look at
them. I I especially think of like New
Year's resolutions, you know, we.
Start these goals with such. Fervor and with.
(02:41):
Such high. Expectations for what we want to
achieve, how we're going to get there, and, you know, we're
going to come through. The other side.
Being the. Best at said.
Thing and of course motivation is.
Really difficult to. Maintain, not to mention energy
levels and balancing all the other things we have in our life
(03:04):
at the same time. And so, yeah, looking at the
difference between how we approach those situations,
whether it's. Through a very.
Regimented, disciplined approach.
Or you know, and again, depending on the goal.
Do we approach it with? Devotion because when you have
devotion for. A a goal or.
(03:28):
Something that you want to achieve the the inherent
motivation in. That approach is through love.
So this is essentially what brought me to wanting to learn
more about the monastic lifestyle and also allow me.
To just preface this as well. This is not intended to have
(03:50):
any. Particular religious.
Message or religious bent and let me also.
Say that. Not only in the research.
But as we talked about this. Monk does as a position does
usually. Refer to a.
Male position, but please know that.
We have of. Course are including everyone in
(04:12):
in this experience and even historically there were many
different positions. That applied to.
Different folks being, you know,men and women.
So please rest assured. We we are including everyone in
this perspective. Yes, absolutely.
I mean, it sounds fascinating, Caitlin.
So this idea of committing to something through love, through
(04:35):
devotion reminds me a little bitof of what in therapy we when we
talk about change and specifically a lifestyle change,
right? There's the, the research shows
that it is a multi stage processthat tends to be cyclic.
And part of change is, you know,in, in substance use, they, they
(05:00):
use the term relapse, but often part of changes is going back to
old behaviors and then, you know, learning how to return
back to the new way of life. But one of the things that I
think can be so helpful when, when talking about changes, that
one of the biggest stages that tends to take up a lot of time
(05:22):
and energy is the maintenance stage.
And, and this applies to any change, right?
Whether it's changing exercise habits or changing work habits,
this, these stages of change apply.
And so when I work with folks through the, the maintenance
stage, it's, it's sometimes monotonous, sometimes it's
(05:44):
boring, sometimes it's frustrating, definitely not
exciting as the, the preparationstage or the action stage of
change, there's usually a lot ofsupport from folks.
There's usually a lot of adrenaline.
And it, it's reminding me of this idea that if you know, if
you want change, it's usually the things that you are devoted
(06:06):
to. When there's devotion to
something, then there might be alittle bit of an easier time
getting through those more difficult stages.
Definitely, and the the point ofsupport that you mentioned too.
Is is such a big part of that aswell because these.
These things don't happen in a vacuum.
(06:28):
And I'm, I'm sure there's a overwhelming, you know, research
on this as well, but when, when,when we work.
Towards a goal. As a community or like when you
have some other form of outside support, even people.
Who are just aware of what? You're doing and you know you
can talk. To about it.
Has, you know, tremendous impacton not only the, you know,
(06:52):
achieving the goal. Itself, but.
Main that maintenance that you're talking about.
Through. Through all those.
Stages, because and even the book on perfection that I
mentioned. Previously The Perfectionist
Guide to Letting Go I believe isthe exact title of the book.
They talk about this too, that with certain types of.
Perfection. The A lot of the motivation
(07:13):
comes from starting, but as soonas the starting has passed and
the that initial excitement wears.
Off. It's much more difficult to
maintain so and to to the point of community as well.
One of the interesting points that I found in the.
Study of the. The monks practice.
(07:37):
Is. How often times the these
communities you know were? Established for for that purpose
because. In order to maintain a
monastery. It required a lot of people.
Because even though. They would.
Say for example, like maintain their own gardens, have very
obviously very humble living quarters, they still had to
(08:00):
maintain the the area and so everyone.
Had prescribed duties. That they needed to accomplish.
Throughout the day. In addition to.
Their devotion practices, whether that was.
Different religious services or doing their prayers or acting.
As a support. For the community, visiting the
(08:23):
sick, feeding the poor, spendingtime with, you know, the the
elderly, everyone had different roles and responsibilities.
But what I was absolutely. Astonished to find Lindy.
Is that the? Concept of burnout and needing
to take a break from their work was even present in these
(08:48):
monasteries in the 12th and 13thcenturies.
There's there's records. Of this and so for anyone who is
feeling. Trapped by the.
Modern lifestyle and the. The state of.
Our current society, please knowthat you are not alone and.
(09:17):
That as as. Humans we have been, you know,
dealing with the the personal maintenance of.
Of this state for. Centuries in this research, one
of the ever present. Aspects of life.
In the monastery was time with nature, and I'll read you a
(09:41):
quote here from Albertus Magnus that says nothing refreshes the.
Site. So much as fine short grass.
So as I mentioned before, all ofthe members of a monastery would
have different duties and responsibilities, and one of
those responsibilities was maintaining their gardens, which
(10:04):
is also interesting because it was not often seen as.
A a chore. Because working with the land,
working in the gardens. Whether it was?
For harvesting their their vegetables and their food, or
simply by maintaining the gardens, it was often a an
enviable. Task to to have as a part of
(10:26):
your schedule because. It was so renewing, but even
even to that recognition of having the element of nature in.
Your everyday life. Monks still were not immune to
burnout in general, one of the things that is mentioned in the
(10:47):
ancient monastic. Rule is this.
Individual rule itself. And when I say rule, I mean
RULE. So literally rules to live by.
It says. Keep.
Yourselves in such. Rest.
That long thereafter ye may labor the more vigorously in
God's service. And so.
(11:09):
There was the. Recognition that rest is
necessary not only to maintain the body, mind and spirit.
But also supports. The vigor needed.
To pursue your. Goals and of course in in this
case the the goal being religious, but this this can
(11:31):
apply much, much farther than that and so.
For the leaders. In these monastic.
Groups if they saw. That anyone in the community was
experiencing any kind of burnout, the regimen or the
recommended. Practice was.
Not to go deeper into. Their prayers.
(11:53):
Or deeper into. The the word or.
To do more in the community it was for complete.
Rest more walks throughout the. Garden more.
Literally just more. Sleep as well.
And. The fact that this.
Was not branded as laziness. Or a lack of.
(12:15):
Of devotion or, you know, motivation to their goal.
I think speaks so tremendously to this continued recognition of
the need for rest in all practices.
Absolutely. And it's, it's surprising to
hear because I think, well, a part of me never thought of the
(12:39):
monastic practice as being an easy life.
It certainly seems like 1 where you would just, I think a part
of me felt like, oh, you would just leave the world and leave
society and then you wouldn't have to deal with stress.
So it is fascinating to know that even then, before probably
(12:59):
the concept of stress as as we know it now, or definitely the
concept of burnout as we know itnow, was part of the
conversation. That people.
Were looking out for the signs. Caitlin, how would you take some
of these things and apply them to modern life?
I would say the most. Applicable part of.
(13:20):
This, from a modern lens, is also being.
Aware of how? You're spending your time.
Because. I feel like one of the most
difficult things to maintain balance with in modern life.
Is. The amount of.
Goals that. You know we, we are.
Expected to have. You know you have to maintain
(13:41):
your. Physical health.
Your mental. Health.
Your career, your. Personal relationships and then
especially if you're an ambitious person by any degree,
there's, you know, you have personal bucket lists and and
things like that. So I think the recognition that
everything happens in its own time, to everything there is a
(14:06):
season and so. We have to.
I think even just recognizing that, you know, we have.
To give ourselves. Time to.
To do. All of the things in in the
context. For which they serve.
I think. Is a.
Really a really important thing to remember.
(14:30):
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much.
It's it's such a fascinating study.
And again, what is the name of the book again?
And the author? It is how to live.
Like a Monk. Medieval Wisdom for Modern Life
by Danielle Sibyluski, and I apologize if I'm pronouncing
their name incorrectly, but yeah.
This was a. Really interesting read.
(14:52):
With a lot. Of references from.
As as I said before, like. Ancient texts and even
individual stories from practicing monks and and folks
practicing. That lifestyle, but.
Also the consideration that wentinto making that choice as well
because when first joining. This this lifestyle.
(15:16):
And making, you know, taking. These vows it.
Was taken so. Seriously.
That. In the first.
Year they were there, they had the.
Option to leave and as on a. On a final note, I think that's
another thing to remember for modern life as well.
(15:36):
Nobody likes being a quitter. Nobody likes, you know, thinking
that they wasted their time witha particular.
Goal or practice, but it takes alot of bravery.
To, to quit something, but ultimately, if it's not serving
you or if it's taking more than you are getting out of it, to
(15:56):
continue pursuing something thatthat's not serving you is the
same as being irresponsible for,for your own self-care.
So, so I I guess then today's message is don't be afraid to
quit. Be a quitter.
Right. You heard it here first.
(16:21):
Yes, Come on in. The water's warm.
Quitting's great. Right.
But thank you, Lindy for joiningme on this.
Stroll through the. Monastic garden grounds when?
When we are not sharing monasticresearch in the break room,
(16:42):
where can people find you? Well, it might not be as
enlightening, but lindylarimore.com you can find
more about my coaching practice,my consulting practice.
I'm helping individuals and businesses help prevent burnout,
recover from burnout, and createspaces where burnout is no
(17:04):
longer an issue. Caitlin, what about you?
Where can we find you when you're not sharing your wisdom
in the break room? You can find me at my brand new
website caitlintruehella.com andAS.
Well, as social. Media I'm on TikTok, Instagram
and. A lot of the, A lot of the.
(17:25):
Others for anyone who is lookingfor author.
Support either with. Book editing.
Or. General creative support.
I do. Ideation Sessions.
As well as creative. Coaching as well, so either
reach out to me through socials or send me an e-mail.
I would love to support you. Well, thank you so much,
Caitlin. Thank you, Lindy.
(17:46):
Until next time. Till next time.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!