September 1, 2025 • 49 mins
đź““ Is there a syllabus on anxiety? This week, Caitlan & Lyndie talk with Allison of Reroute Wellness about recognizing and de-stigmatizing the shame associated with anxiety, as well as a few handy ways to cope when panic sets in.
Welcome back to the Burnout Break Room! The podcast that's like a break room, but helpful. Join us every Monday to escape the hustle spiral. Think of it as a break room—if your coworkers actually talked about real solutions instead of just complaining about meetings that could have been emails. We’re diving into burnout with a realistic lens, spilling the tea on how to reclaim your energy, and finding creative ways to step off the hamster wheel (without burning everything down… probably). Grab your coffee, take a breath, and let’s break the cycle together!
🍬 Allison Zaluski is the founder of Reroute Wellness, empowering those to take control of their mental health with natural, unapologetic tools born from lived experience.
Connect with her at https://reroutewellness.com/
Instagram: @reroutewellness
Tiktok @reroutewellnessofficial
đź“— Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book and on a hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at https://caitlantrewhella.com/
đź“™ Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach, licensed Therapist, and Consultant who knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
Find out more at https://lyndielaramore.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:25):
Where are your hosts? Thank you for joining us here in
the Burnout Break Room. Hi, Caitlin.
Hi. Lindy, how you doing?
Good, I'm in that post vacation glow which I have to say to
quote a lyric, we can't always get what we want but when we
try, sometimes we get what we need.
Apparently what I needed was COVID.
(00:47):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I had this great.
It was a two week vacation and I, you know, had a few different
things planned. And part of it was a beautiful
trip out to the Berkshires, complete with concerts and
everything. And then COVID had another idea.
(01:10):
So I ended up having this, really.
So first of all, it was like themildest case I've ever had.
It was like done in a day. So I had this really nice like
staycation where I let myself tonothing at all, go nowhere.
And it was actually exactly whatI needed.
And then I was able to like I'm headed to the Berkshires as we
(01:33):
speak, like right after this. So I was able to have my cake
and eat it too. So I'm actually pretty grateful
for COVID. Interesting.
So. It's in a way, it's almost like
you had two vacations because you got to go and do the things
that you wanted to, but also like, let's not, you know,
underestimate the value of just staying home and rotting for a
(01:55):
minute. That was my week and it was.
I highly recommend rotting. I got to say.
How are you, Caitlin? I'm doing good.
So for myself, I've been doing alot of web design because Long
story short, and switching over my website, which is a lot, but
it's also fun and I'll be happy to share more about that later.
(02:19):
But it's amazing when you think about all of the tiny pieces
that go into marketing, what it is that you do.
And I just keep thinking and like being reminded all the
time. The, I believe it's, I believe
it's a quote from Einstein, Albert Einstein said that you
(02:41):
don't truly understand somethingunless you can explain it
simply. And I keep reminding myself of
that when going through and readand doing this redesign because
I, I love getting into the details and like going into
these like complex concepts and explaining like the, you know,
(03:02):
neuroscience behind things. And I have to keep dialing it
back like this is a lot. Yeah, being a nerd, it's it's
really hard. Caitlin, I feel you so hard.
Hard work. That's exciting, though.
Congrats and and you know, you know all about this, but the
(03:26):
creative process is, is it's, it's exciting and energizing and
a lot of peering down, right. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And having, having an understanding, especially of
like where your audience is coming from, especially if
they're already in a state of burnout.
(03:46):
Like I think one of the most compassionate things that you
can do for people like when you're extending help or
resources is to not just be relatable, but to make things
simple in a way that's easy to easy to take in, in the moment.
You know, you're not creating like a lot of barriers to it.
(04:07):
And I specifically think about especially people dealing with
anxiety because dealing with anxiety is already so much to
deal with on its own. But then when you build the
confidence to go get resources or to talk to people about it,
(04:27):
that can be anxiety inducing as well.
So you also want to like be aware of what people are
experiencing. And we have the absolute
pleasure. Speaking of anxiety experts, we
have the absolute pleasure of having Allison here with us
today. She is the founder of Reroute
(04:49):
Wellness, empowering those to take control of their mental
health with natural, unapologetic tools born from
lived experience. We are so happy to have you
here, Allison. Hi everyone, I'm Allison.
I'm the founder of Reroute Wellness.
I have a panic disorder that I was diagnosed with a few years
(05:09):
back and it's something that I definitely have had to learn to
live with and kind of figure outhow to lessen my panic attacks
and almost get over it in a way which I still haven't completely
gotten over it and don't know how realistic that is this soon.
But it's definitely, I've definitely learned ways to take
(05:32):
my panic attacks from having them every single day to having
them not very often, like maybe once in a blue moon, which is
very nice. Wow, Allison, that's, that's
really impressive. It sounds like you've done some,
some really good work in, in your treatment.
And I, I'm, I'm excited to talk to you because I think one thing
(05:56):
that we haven't fully said out loud, Caitlin, and that I recall
in the podcast so far is burnoutin, in the stress response cycle
is anxiety. You know, like they're very,
very closely related. And often times part of what
causes folks to recognize that they're burned out are the
anxiety symptoms. And the way that we end the
(06:20):
stress response cycle is also very similar to how we manage
our anxiety is specifically panic attacks.
So Allison, I'd, if you don't mind telling us a little bit,
Oh, sorry. I want to say one more thing
too. I don't want to forget to say
this. So I've, I've been a therapist
for a little while now. And when I first was studying in
(06:42):
Graduate School, there was this very kind of clear messaging
that we as therapists are blank slates.
And while we ourselves are instruments and tools of
therapy, our stories are not. And so there is this very clear
(07:05):
delineation between our lived experience and, you know, the
the others, the other being the clients, like they have the
problems. We, if we do, we keep that to
ourselves. And, you know, and, and so I
noticed there is this real messaging and that that started
(07:26):
to come out in the world of therapy that like they, you
know, they're, they're the people that are struggling and
we have our stuff together. And if we don't, we don't tell
anyone, including our peers, including our colleagues,
especially not our bosses, you know, And then this wonderful
thing started happening in the world of mental health where
folks who identified as peers, which is someone with lived
(07:51):
experience, started to be sitting at the tables, right?
They started to be a part of treatment teams.
They started to be supporting folks, receiving services and
suddenly as therapist, we were confronted with this idea that,
oh, like our experience could actually help someone.
What, you know, mind blown. So I, I am so excited to be
(08:13):
talking to you, Allison, becauseyou are someone who very much
uses your lived experience as a form of helping others heal.
So would you mind sharing a little bit about your story and
how you came to the work that you're doing?
So it started getting really badaround 2021, like the beginning
of the year. And I didn't really know what it
(08:34):
was at first. So honestly, when I would get
these panic attacks, I completely convinced myself that
I was dying. Like I would literally think I
was having a heart attack or that I needed to go to the
hospital. And it was terrifying.
Especially the first one that I ever had that was truly bad.
Like I remember my heart rate was so high I I would constantly
(08:55):
be feeling my pulse. It was just so bad.
And especially when I was with friends it that was honestly
when it was the worst for me because I got really
embarrassed, which I know they didn't think it was embarrassing
and they would try to help me and tell me that it wasn't.
But in my head, I was just always feeling so ashamed that
my friends were going to think it was embarrassing or that I
(09:18):
was embarrassing myself around new people, anything like that.
And that's kind of where for my,the reason I started my business
in general is because I wanted to make something that empowered
people that struggle with the same thing I do to not feel
embarrassed. Because I know mental health is
becoming more talked about nowadays and it's not as taboo.
(09:39):
But I think one thing that a lotof people don't focus on is the
shameful part of it. And I don't really hear a lot of
people talking about how they feel embarrassed about how they
feel. And that was one thing that I
really struggled with again, like I haven't, I haven't heard
a lot of people talk about. And that was one of the worst
things for me was feeling embarrassed calling an
(10:00):
ambulance, which I did one time and just certain things like
that because of a panic disorder, which later on I found
out that it was just anxiety andit wasn't anything with me.
Like I wasn't dying. I wasn't, didn't have any issues
because I did go to the doctor and they did check different
things. But yeah.
And once I found out that that'sjust what it was, I think the
(10:23):
more I had them and the more I realized that what was happening
was just my like trauma responseor my anxiety, that's when they
started to lessen and I started to get them less and.
Less, I sincerely appreciate your perspective, Allison,
because you're absolutely right.We don't talk a lot about the
(10:46):
associated feeling of shame withhaving this kind of response.
And you're reminding me very much of one of the first
indicators that I had leading into the realization that I was
burnt out at work. When I would get so nervous
about volatile situations at work, but turning into like a
(11:08):
day-to-day occurrence where I physically could not stop
shaking. And the first response to that
being, I'm so embarrassed if anybody sees what's going on
here because I, I, if I had like, have to hold a piece of
paper or something like that, it's going to become that much
more obvious and everybody's going to think that there's
(11:30):
something wrong with me. And again, like internalizing
that experience that, you know, it's like, somehow I have failed
because there's something wrong with me.
I'm having this reaction, but ofcourse, like once we take a step
back and see that it is a reaction in in those cases to an
(11:51):
external situation, a prolonged problem, again, external
problem. It's the stress response.
That's that's nothing to be ashamed of.
And for everybody listening, if you get nothing else from this
podcast, please know that you'renot less of a person for having
(12:13):
having this response. There's there's not something
inherently wrong with you and there are a lot of solutions.
And so that's another reason whywe're very happy to talk about
this today. And, and thank you so much for
for sharing your experience. Caitlin, I absolutely agree with
you and I and Allison, I'm so excited to talk about shame with
(12:36):
you, which is such a weird sentence.
This is like, I'm so excited because I will share in my work
as a therapist right now. I had this huge realization just
a little while ago, but I think I've talked about here before
that I, I, I'm someone who workswith folks who are experiencing
(13:03):
burnout. And in that work, I actually
started to do some, some treatment of ADHD.
And so a lot of folks would cometo me and say I need help with
time management or I need help with my scheduling.
And I would help them with that.And then we would hit a wall
every time, every time. And realize, first of all, that
(13:27):
they actually could dance circles around my knowledge of
these things because they had ADHD and they'd already done the
deep, the deep dive, right? And and knew all the things and
just like everything else they tried, these hacks were not
working. I suddenly realized the wall was
(13:49):
shame. And if we weren't working
through the shame, I couldn't help them any more than a TikTok
video. So I'm curious, Allison, how you
recognized the S word right, shame and and how you've, you
know, if you're in the process of working through it or how
you've worked through it, Pleaseteach me.
(14:11):
Yeah, so I actually learned or Ifigured out what I was feeling
because of my old therapist. Actually, I went to, I've been
going to therapy for, I think I started going to therapy.
Well, I started a while ago, butI restarted therapy in 2020.
And then I actually just recently stopped with my
(14:33):
therapist back in March of this year, which is really crazy
because I, I'm so used to like going to therapy, talking to her
every week or every other week. So it's been a couple months
about it, and it's nice to feel like I've come such a long way.
But she's actually the one that helped me recognize that what I
was feeling was shame because I would kind of tell like, I
(14:54):
didn't really know what that wasfor some reason.
And I would talk to her about mypanic attacks and then I would
tell her like, for some reason it made me feel so nauseous,
like being around people. I just felt this weird feeling.
And then I didn't even know if Iwanted to like to see these
people again. And that's when I realized that
I was just feeling so embarrassed for no reason.
(15:15):
And especially because a lot of this was happening when I was in
college at Michigan State. And I would have panic attacks
during class sometimes, which I know you mentioned, Caitlin,
about folding a piece of paper and not wanting people to see
you shaking because of anxiety. And that's kind of how I felt,
especially even just sitting in the big lecture halls, because
(15:37):
MSU is a humongous school and a lot of our a lot of my classes
were in these huge lecture hallsof like 304 hundred people.
And I remember I'd be sitting inmy seat like of course, not
knowing anybody and I would justbe freaking out.
And there's a couple times whereI did have to leave the class
because I literally couldn't breathe.
(16:00):
And like, one of my things that I always did was feel my pulse,
which, Oh my gosh, I always got so embarrassed from that
specifically. And I didn't want people to see
me. So I would like sit in my chair
and just be like looking around,trying to look not suspicious, I
guess. And yeah, that was probably one
of the most embarrassing parts for me was when I was in college
(16:23):
trying to hide how I was feelingin these classes and everything.
And I honestly am not even sure what kind of made me get out of
that exactly. But the more that I did do
therapy, the more that I talked to my therapist and realized
what was happening is when I kind of had that breakthrough
and started not feeling embarrassed, which eventually
(16:44):
led to me having less panic attacks, I think.
I, I especially relate to the, the feeling like it's, it's one
thing to experience a panic attack or an anxiety attack,
like as you experience it, but also to experience it on such a
public level. It's like 1, one of those
(17:04):
situations where, I mean, just like you said, you can be
surrounded by, you know, hundreds of people in a lecture
hall and, you know, never feel more alone in your life.
And also like that to turn into a feeling of, you know, there's,
there's a like hundreds of eyes on me right now, which only
compounds the situation. And I, I also wanted to ask you
(17:30):
in, in those kinds of situations, like, especially
since you empathize with this situation.
For example, if you were back like in that lecture hall and
like the person next to you, do you think you would be able to
tell if they were having like some kind of panic attack?
And if so, like even as a a stranger, like what would what
(17:53):
would you do to I? I don't know if I would say like
directly help them, but just like be be a supportive voice.
Yeah, I feel like because I've become so open about like all of
my mental health, everything recently, I feel like it would
be I would definitely want to hopefully be able to help
(18:16):
someone if I did notice that they were having a panic attack.
And I think I maybe possibly would be able to tell just
because I know like the signs and even like the secret signs
of like for me, I would be looking around a lot and just
like the shakiness and like the weird breathing, there's
(18:36):
different things that you can kind of tell even if they're
very mute and quiet, you can kind of tell when someone is
having 1. And I don't know because when I
think about it, if I was having one and someone noticed and they
were trying to help me, I think I would appreciate that a lot.
And I would like want to talk tosomeone about it because I think
(19:01):
talking about it does actually help a lot.
But I don't know if everyone does feel the same way.
I know some people maybe would, like I said, be embarrassed if
someone was like, hey, like, do you want, do you need any water?
Do you want to go walk around? The go outside the lecture hall
and just walk around for a little bit, which is something
that I did a lot. I would walk around.
(19:23):
But yeah, I don't know, like I would want to help, but at the
same time I don't know how the other person would feel about
that, if that makes sense. Yeah, I can definitely see that
too, because like there, there'sa fine line between like
offering help to a stranger, butthen also like not wanting to
put somebody on the spot. So I can definitely understand
(19:45):
that. Allison, you're dropping so much
wisdom. I think you you bring up a
couple of great points there that I think we can all learn
from here because we're talking about two different things.
Actually, we're talking about anxiety, which is.
The, the kind of the foundation of a panic attack or
(20:06):
embarrassment leading to shame. And so in dialectical behavioral
therapy, we call that the secondarrow emotion.
So there's the, there's the basic emotion, which is, you
know, whether it's fear, anger, sadness, kind of kind of the
primary colors of emotions. And then often times we have a
(20:31):
feeling about having a feeling. And that's where things like
embarrassment, guilt, shame start to come up.
Sometimes the second arrow emotion is anger, right?
Depending on what's going on, like angry at ourselves for
feeling something. So Allison, you, you brought up
this really important point thatso if a person's having a panic
(20:54):
attack, I want to just highlightfirst of all, that panic attacks
are unique and that they are a mental health experience
diagnosis that happens on the outside that's very visible.
True panic attacks. They're hard to miss.
They can be loud. They can, you know, it can
(21:16):
involve vomiting, it involves passing out, right?
They can, they can get really a lot of people.
Do you think they're dying when they have they're having a panic
attack? It can be painful.
And so it is one of the only mental health experiences that
are on the outside that are out loud.
(21:37):
So there's a so I also like how you highlighted sometimes panic
attacks happen because you're afraid of having a panic attack.
So it's like I'm having and now I'm like more nervous about
having panic. And then if you add shame on top
of that, correct me if I'm wrong, Allison, like it in my
experience of having panic attacks myself, it just, it
(21:58):
exacerbates the panic attack, right?
Yeah. Yep, that's exactly how I would
feel too. And that's why a lot of the
times, I guess going back to thelecture hall thing, because for
some reason that specifically was where I would have them a
lot in school. But yeah, that's why a lot of
the times I did end up leaving the class and trying to go to
(22:19):
the bathroom or walk around until I calmed myself down
because for me, like, depending on where I was, my panic attacks
are definitely more visible. There's a lot of times where
like, I'll start crying because of them because I, I just freak.
Like I, I just spiral when I have them.
Like I completely convinced myself that I'm going to like,
(22:40):
pass out or like just die. It's crazy how your mind
convinces you of these things that are not even happening in
real life. But yeah, so yeah, I completely
understand that. And it sucks that a lot of the
times they are so visible because then that leads you to
that second emotion like you said, and then it just snowball
(23:03):
effects from there. And one of the things I
appreciate, Allison, is you've done a wonderful job not only of
sharing your story, which helps to combat shame when it comes to
mental health and, and seeking support, but you have some
really great tips on managing anxiety.
(23:23):
I wonder if you'd feel comfortable sharing some of
those? Thank you so much I I feel so
sometimes I feel weird like sharing them 'cause obviously
I'm not a therapist I didn't even go to school for like
anything mental health related. But the only reason I do know so
many tips and everything is because of my years going to
therapy. So I'm very glad and grateful
(23:46):
that I did that. And to other people listening
that may be struggling with this, I definitely recommend
talking to a therapist because it's a lot more helpful than you
would think. But yeah, so some of the tips
that I specifically really liked, one huge thing that I
talk a lot about in different videos, and one of the main
(24:08):
things that helped me is overallexposure therapy.
And my therapist mentioned a while ago that the more that I
would have panic attacks and like fully feel them, then the
less I would have them. Because your brain, it's like a
pattern and the more your brain recognizes it, then the less
scary it feels and the more intense they are.
(24:30):
So a lot of the times, another place where I get really bad
panic attacks and still do sometimes is when I'm driving
and I don't know why, but for some reason when I drive, I've
never even gotten like in a car accident or anything like that.
I just, I just get it really badwhen I'm driving because I'll
convince myself that I'm going to pass out at the wheel or that
(24:51):
like if something's going to happen and I'll be alone and
that no one will be able to liketake over and help me drive, I
guess. But so something I started doing
is like keeping tools on me, like like sour candy or
something to squeeze to like fidget with and just like
different little tools that whenI was having a panic attack when
(25:13):
I was driving, instead of pulling over like I used to, I
just started forcing myself to feel it.
Not in a dangerous way. Like if it was really that bad,
I would definitely pull over. But if it was just starting to
happen, I would just like use mytools and continue to drive and
feel what was happening rather than pulling over and trying to
(25:36):
stop it because sometimes that makes it worse before me, at
least sometimes that actually made it worse.
So yeah, that's like probably one of my biggest tips and one
of the biggest things that I've done to kind of lessen them over
time. As you were talking about not
only learning these tips and skills through your own
(25:57):
experience, but also in your conversations with your
therapist, I just want to take amoment to appreciate, you know,
all of the work that you've put in.
You know, even like up to this point to not not only like coach
yourself through each one of these moments, but to like
(26:17):
reinforce, I'm I'm OK, this doesn't need to like spiral
every time. And like, I have the tools and
the confidence to take each, each one of these moments one at
a time and do do the work to take care of yourself.
So I just want to take a moment and congratulate you for that
because it is hard. And especially when you know,
(26:41):
over such a long period of time,it can, you know, at least
speaking from, you know, my own experience, it can feel like
when I'm when am I going to makemore progress with this?
When am I going to be? And I'm not going to use quotes
fixed because of course, like we're, we're not, we're not a
problem that needs fixing or, oranything like that, but at least
(27:05):
to be able to have, you know, the, the tools and tricks to
help process these things when they happen so that you know,
you can, you can live your life.So, yeah, congratulations on
this incredible work. And going to also what you were
saying about the I, I love the, the pattern recognition, but
(27:26):
also, as you've talked before, and I know you've mentioned this
on your social media too, One ofthe simplest ways that, you
know, we can help calm our, you know, nervous system in those
moments. And honestly, this, this can
also be applied even if you're not having, you know, a panic
attack is bringing as you were talking about bringing your
(27:48):
awareness to the different senses to touch something, to
hear something to, you know, look for something blue to
taste, something different to help bring your awareness out of
only experiencing one thing. I love that.
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like the five
senses are super helpful and trying to ground yourself, and
(28:11):
that's honestly one of the most important things.
Allison, I got really excited when I when I saw your social
media because I did you teach the 54321 technique.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
I do know what you're talking about.
I think I might have made AI, can't remember.
I might have made a video on that before.
But yeah, that's another thing that I learned from my therapist
(28:33):
as well. Do you want to?
Do you want to share what that is?
Correct me if I'm wrong in the order, but this is what I
remember. OK, it's 5 things you can see,
four things. Oh my gosh.
I can't remember if it's four things you can hear or if it's
four things you can touch. OK, yeah.
(28:56):
So 5 things you can see, 4 things you can touch, three
things you can hear, two things you can smell, and then one
thing that you can taste. Yes.
Was that right? OK.
Right on. I couldn't remember like.
Right on that's one of my most favorite like grounding
(29:17):
techniques because you can do itanywhere at any time.
And it's also like also connectsyou with joy because what I what
I tell people when I'm teaching them this is for their first
response is like, how do I not know about this?
Like why don't they teach this to us in school?
You know, because we don't always like have something we
(29:37):
can taste or smell necessarily in front of us.
So it's like, what's your favorite smell?
You know, what's your favorite thing to taste?
What's your favorite meal or dessert or something?
Or like you said, Allison, like have some, some good mince or,
or like what do they call those?Like the the hot tamales or
(29:59):
something like spicy or sour things in your so that you can
have that as a grounding tool. So I really appreciate you
sharing that, Allison, because that's a really effective tool
that any of us can do it at any time.
And it, it absolutely helps withanxiety because any moment that
you're thinking about this moment, you are not anxious.
(30:22):
Like if you're truly in this anxiety is the often associated
with the future. Depression is often associated
with the past, so anytime we're very much in this moment, we
tend to not be fully experiencing either one of those
things. Caitlin, you and I were vibing
(30:43):
because I wanted to really highlight Allison, that in
sharing your story, you're sharing The Dirty little secret
that I often hate sharing with people that the, the way to
treat anxiety is through anxiety.
(31:05):
And so I often, you know, when, when folks are coming to me for
anxiety, I often have to be like, I'm so sorry, but what I'm
going to ask you to do is to experience anxiety, which means
folks who have gone through and stuck with treatment for anxiety
are incredibly courageous. So I'm wondering if you can
(31:27):
speak at all, Allison, to like what it was like to be like, oh,
in exposure therapy, I have to experience things.
I'd have to sit with it. I have to be in my body.
Like, what was that like at 1st?And how did you access the
courage to to to go through that?
Yeah. So I guess this kind of relates
to before I even started doing or like forcing myself to do an
(31:51):
exposure therapy type type action.
I tried medication at 1st and I'm not saying I'm against or
for medication. Everyone is different and I know
that everyone reacts different. But for me at least it did not
work at all. It actually made my anxiety
worse and I don't know why but that was just for me.
(32:12):
It didn't react well with my body.
And I think in my head, like taking new like medications
scared me so much that it would cause me to have anxiety.
So I tried that at 1st and then after I stopped taking
medication, I that's when my therapist was like, OK, we're
going to try this. And I've always been someone who
(32:34):
like really wanted to put in thework to, to feel better and to
not have panic tests as often. Like I didn't just like listen
to what she said and kind of ignore it.
Like I like truly wanted to put in the work.
So I would like straight up force myself to do certain
things. So for example, like I said,
when one of the main places I get panic taxes in my car when
(32:56):
I'm driving. So I remember a couple things I
used to do was I would have one of my friends sit in the
passenger seat. So that just in case like some
something happened which it wasn't going to, but in my head,
just in case something happened that I would have someone there
with me. And specifically the highways
not night was when they got really bad.
(33:18):
So I would wait till night time and have my friend with me and
literally just go on the highwayand just kind of go in a loop
like around where my house is just to feel like I'm OK.
Like it was nice having someone with me 'cause it's like there's
someone there just in case and I'm doing this thing and nothing
bad's happening. So it's like that pattern
(33:38):
recognition that you mentioned. And one of the times that I
truly had like the most confidence to push myself even
further with exposure therapy was last year.
It was last summer for my birthday.
I ended up driving to Nashville from Michigan for my birthday
with my friends. And I remember telling them
(34:01):
like, OK guys, I'm going to force myself to drive the whole
8 hours. Like don't switch with me.
Even if I ask like just let because they all know about my,
my panic attacks, like I, I, I mean, they've seen it happen in
real life. So obviously they were going to
know about it. I was just like, OK, just let me
do it. And that was like a huge turning
point for me because that's whenlast year after that was when I
(34:25):
truly realized a huge difference.
And I haven't, like I still get them sometimes but barely is
often at all now because of thathuge 8 hour car ride where I was
just driving on the highway the entire time and forcing myself
to do something that scared me so much.
Truly remarkable, Allison, that you, you're reminding me of a
(34:51):
story of someone that I treated who would have a panic attack
when he got into his car. And we did what was called the
laddering down technique, which is, you know, well, what does
that mean? And what does that mean?
And we get a little bit further down, a little bit further down.
And he was able to remember thatthere was a time where he his
(35:14):
car broke down in a tunnel in the middle of a big city.
And he remembered specifically this moment where he had to get
out of his car and felt like, you know, he was about to get
hit by a SMI And so, right. And so he, you know, I think the
thing that he recognized was he's like, I'm not afraid of
(35:35):
driving. I'm afraid of dying, right?
And of course we're going to be afraid.
You know, like that's a terrifying experience.
And he was just reliving that every time he got into his car.
So it's so wonderful, Allison, that you have Speaking of shame,
right? Like you've brought people into
your treatment team, your friends who can be there with
(35:56):
you and support you as you're knowing that I might, you know,
I might really feel anxious, I might have a panic attack and,
and having you here helps me know that worst case scenario, I
can pull over, you can take over.
But I'm wondering, Allison, whatit was like to have those
conversations with your friends at first or when they saw your
(36:16):
first panic attack, and how did you work through that with your
friends? Mm hmm.
Yeah, honestly, I have such amazing friends and I'm so
grateful for that, that they're so like caring and
understanding. So that is a huge part of it.
But I, I can't even honestly remember the first time I like
(36:36):
really mentioned it to them. I remember the first time I had
a really bad one was with one ofmy friends, Marissa.
And she was, I just remember this so vividly 'cause it was in
a backseat of our other friend'scar.
And that was like one of the first times I like really had a
panic attack. And like she was just so nice.
Like we pulled over and I was just breathing for a bit and she
(36:59):
was like talking me through it, I guess.
And that was like one of the first times I remember having
one and talking to my friends about it.
And then the more I had them andlike with my other friends being
there, like specifically the Nashville situation, they all
the other three friends of us, but they all knew about my panic
(37:20):
attacks before this because they've either been there when
it's happened or actually, yeah,they've all been there when it's
happened. Like I've just had so many of
them back in the past that pretty much all my friends have
been there, at least for one. And yeah, so I think that's why
I didn't really feel scared, like telling them like, hey,
this might happen. I might have to pull over and
(37:42):
switch, but I'm going to try my best not to have that happen.
I'm going to try my best to makeit all the way through.
And yeah, I think like a huge part is just having a support
system that is, that cares aboutyou, but also giving that back
as well. Like you don't want it to be A1
sided thing like, if that makes sense.
Oh. Absolutely.
And I mean, what, what a, what atreasure, you know, to have
(38:06):
great friends like that that arenot only understanding, you
know, but hold space for you in,in that way.
And also, as you said, you know,you guys hold space for each
other in that way is so incredibly helpful, especially
like when you're first becoming comfortable talking about it.
And when I used to have panic attacks on a more regular basis,
(38:31):
part of like my communication tomy friends would be in, in these
moments, it would be really helpful, like, for, for you to
ask like, do you want like a reassuring presence?
Like I'm, I'm here, you're not alone.
Or do you want a distraction? And sometimes I, I would ask
them, you know, yeah, I'd, I'd really appreciate a distraction.
(38:54):
And yeah. So sometimes they would just
like make up these really weird stories and just kind of like
go, go on a rant themselves and that that would be incredibly
helpful. So, and, and also just like
recognizing our community in general as well.
Like, and going back to what we were talking about a little bit
before in terms of the same aspect, if more of us talked
(39:18):
about, you know, our experienceswith anxiety, whether it's, you
know, a, a once in a while experience or you know, a daily
occurrence, I think we would help normalize that experience a
lot more to be able to to share our experience and don't feel so
(39:40):
weird about it. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, let's get, let's get rid of some of the shame and shaming
when it comes to receiving mental health services, to
having mental health struggles. Let me tell you, everyone has
them. That's the thing that I think is
not said out loud, like everyonehas mental health struggles.
(40:04):
They might not become something that is a diagnosis, but
everyone experiences grief at one point or another.
Everyone experiences anxiety. I will say one of the things I
like to tell folks. There have been documented cases
of folks who have had brain injuries that have caused them
(40:28):
to no longer experience anxiety.What do you think happened?
Any any guesses as to what mighthave happened in those
situations? Oh gosh, I have no idea.
My my brain wants to to also. I just realized what a meta
statement this is. My brain wants to explore the
(40:49):
neuroscience. Behind you.
Whoa, whoa, that's a lot. Speaking about my brain in the
third person, what's what's happening here?
But I I want to say it's like damage to a specific part of the
brain. Yeah.
So one in one situation their amygdala was calcified.
(41:14):
Wow. Yeah, that's crazy.
Right. Yeah.
So they, they, they, the amygdala is like the smoke alarm
of the brain. So when any kind of perceived
threat comes through any one of our five senses, everything goes
through the amygdala and it is what turns on the fight or
flight response. So it's very much like a like a
(41:36):
smoke alarm and is falsely triggered very much like a smoke
alarm a lot and sometimes accurately triggered.
But any guesses as to as to whathappened for those for a couple
of folks who couldn't experienceanxiety anymore?
I feel like something bad probably because if you don't
(41:56):
have like a fight or flight thenif something actually is
happening to you, wouldn't you not know how to respond to it?
You are right on Allison. So the first the the I believe
is a woman who whose amygdala was calcified.
She ended up getting mugged 3 times in like 3 separate spaces.
(42:17):
Just Oh my gosh. Became a part of her normal
experience because you think about it like, we know not to
walk down a dark alley at night,right?
You know, or like have a conversation with that nice
person who is, you know, lurkingin the corner, right?
We just know not to do that. She lost the ability to, you
(42:39):
know, discretion. Basically another person.
I I think it was just kind of a more traditional brain injury.
They, they ended up having to hire basically bodyguards for
him because he would, you know, I want to try flying and he
would just kind of go jump off of things or, you know, that
that kind of thing. So you're exactly right,
(42:59):
Allison. Anxiety is important.
We don't want to get rid of our anxiety and yet it's about
finding that balance of using itas a signal and information and
not running our lives. Yeah, exactly.
Honestly, even just in, in termsof like giving, giving a visual
(43:22):
to that mechanism, Lindy, like you said, you know, it's, it's a
smoke alarm. And I think about in all the
places that I've lived with the different, you know, smoke
alarms, yeah, sometimes they, they go off mistakenly or heaven
forbid, like when the battery goes out and they just, you
know, they won't stop beeping. It's more of an annoyance than
(43:43):
anything else. But I mean that I've, that's a
great visualization for that mechanism because the, the more
that I personally have like started to learn to recognize
when those alerts happen, that even just a simple recognition,
(44:05):
almost like, you know, talking to your anxiety as like a
disembodied person. Like I know that you're here to
protect me and I know that you think there is some kind of
danger happening right now. And I appreciate you for what
you're doing, but I'm not currently in danger and in
another like form of mechanism. And this kind of goes back to
(44:28):
like some tips that we were talking about before.
But it also reminds me of a couple years ago, I was in a
pretty bad car accident and had a lot of like very specific, you
know, car related anxiety afterwards.
And I had read about flooding therapy.
And because I, I didn't want this to be a new reality of like
(44:50):
being terrified every time I wasin a car and just like
constantly being on that expectation that something was
going to happen. I used to watch a lot of car
crash compilations on YouTube. Wow.
Wow. Talking, talking of courage.
Wow. So like if I, and to this day, I
(45:12):
feel like it's, it might be kindof like a weird approach, but it
helped so much because it was almost like recognizing, OK,
yeah. And anxiety, you're, you're here
to protect me and, you know, be a warning for those things that
either are happening or might happen.
And I appreciate that heads up. But like, that was a great way
(45:36):
to kind of reinforce like, OK, this this doesn't happen every
day, but just re reframing that experience.
And I'm happy to say that it, ithelped a lot.
And even nowadays, like if I'm feeling particularly stressed
out just because the, you know, the day or whatever, it doesn't
have to be car related. Yeah, sometimes, you know, I'll
(45:57):
watch like 10 minutes worth of like car crash compilations.
So much better. You heard to hear first, folks.
Best cure for anxiety is car crash compilation, right?
I am so impressed with you, Caitlin.
I don't know that I could make that happen for myself, but wow,
(46:19):
glad it worked. That's great.
I I just want to thank both of you.
This has been such a wonderful conversation.
Thank you so much, Allison, for your vulnerability and your
willingness to share and for what you're doing in the world
to help normalize anxiety and the need for mental health
(46:40):
support and, you know, giving really helpful information on
kind of just ways of managing. And thanks so much for taking
the time to come visit us here in the Burnout Break Room.
Yeah, thank you both so much. Honestly, this is such a great
conversation and it's so nice tobe able to talk about something
that of course you both understand.
(47:01):
And it's just, yeah, it was a really good conversation.
So thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely, and thank you also for being here, Allison, It,
this has been a wonderful conversation and we've, I feel
like we've done so much good work today.
And in terms of, you know, normalizing these conversations,
getting them more out in the open.
(47:22):
And for anybody that wants to share their experience or their
top tip that has helped them themost through their anxiety or
any like panic, panic attack related experiences, please
share them in the comments. Let us know and we'd, we'd love
to, to share them with folks as well.
So, but thank you for being here.
(47:43):
And Allison, when you're not in the break room, where can people
find you? Yeah.
So my business Instagram is at reroute Wellness REROUTE and
then my TikTok is reroute Wellness official and then my
website is just www.reroutewellness.com.
(48:07):
Wonderful. And Lindy, when you're not in
the break room, where can peoplefind you?
Folks can go to my website, lindylarimore.com.
They can also find me on Instagram at Lindy Larimore or
LinkedIn also at Lindy Larimore.And Caitlin, what about you?
Where can we find you? Nowadays, you can find me at
(48:30):
caitlintrujela.com, but otherwise you can find me on
Instagram, Tiktok, generally social media, at Creative
Caitlin, and I'm also on LinkedIn as well at Caitlin
Trujela. And please stalk us at the
(48:50):
Burnout Break Room on Instagram and YouTube and Facebook.
We love comments. We love hearing about your
burnout experience. Tips and tricks.
Yeah, come, come be our stalkers.
We reckon. We highly invite you to do that.
(49:11):
Absolutely. Well, thank you all for joining
us here in the burnout break room today and we will see you
next time. Bye bye.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:25):
Where are your hosts? Thank you for joining us here in
the Burnout Break Room. Hi, Caitlin.
Hi. Lindy, how you doing?
Good, I'm in that post vacation glow which I have to say to
quote a lyric, we can't always get what we want but when we
try, sometimes we get what we need.
Apparently what I needed was COVID.
(00:47):
Oh my gosh. Yeah, I had this great.
It was a two week vacation and I, you know, had a few different
things planned. And part of it was a beautiful
trip out to the Berkshires, complete with concerts and
everything. And then COVID had another idea.
(01:10):
So I ended up having this, really.
So first of all, it was like themildest case I've ever had.
It was like done in a day. So I had this really nice like
staycation where I let myself tonothing at all, go nowhere.
And it was actually exactly whatI needed.
And then I was able to like I'm headed to the Berkshires as we
(01:33):
speak, like right after this. So I was able to have my cake
and eat it too. So I'm actually pretty grateful
for COVID. Interesting.
So. It's in a way, it's almost like
you had two vacations because you got to go and do the things
that you wanted to, but also like, let's not, you know,
underestimate the value of just staying home and rotting for a
(01:55):
minute. That was my week and it was.
I highly recommend rotting. I got to say.
How are you, Caitlin? I'm doing good.
So for myself, I've been doing alot of web design because Long
story short, and switching over my website, which is a lot, but
it's also fun and I'll be happy to share more about that later.
(02:19):
But it's amazing when you think about all of the tiny pieces
that go into marketing, what it is that you do.
And I just keep thinking and like being reminded all the
time. The, I believe it's, I believe
it's a quote from Einstein, Albert Einstein said that you
(02:41):
don't truly understand somethingunless you can explain it
simply. And I keep reminding myself of
that when going through and readand doing this redesign because
I, I love getting into the details and like going into
these like complex concepts and explaining like the, you know,
(03:02):
neuroscience behind things. And I have to keep dialing it
back like this is a lot. Yeah, being a nerd, it's it's
really hard. Caitlin, I feel you so hard.
Hard work. That's exciting, though.
Congrats and and you know, you know all about this, but the
(03:26):
creative process is, is it's, it's exciting and energizing and
a lot of peering down, right. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And having, having an understanding, especially of
like where your audience is coming from, especially if
they're already in a state of burnout.
(03:46):
Like I think one of the most compassionate things that you
can do for people like when you're extending help or
resources is to not just be relatable, but to make things
simple in a way that's easy to easy to take in, in the moment.
You know, you're not creating like a lot of barriers to it.
(04:07):
And I specifically think about especially people dealing with
anxiety because dealing with anxiety is already so much to
deal with on its own. But then when you build the
confidence to go get resources or to talk to people about it,
(04:27):
that can be anxiety inducing as well.
So you also want to like be aware of what people are
experiencing. And we have the absolute
pleasure. Speaking of anxiety experts, we
have the absolute pleasure of having Allison here with us
today. She is the founder of Reroute
(04:49):
Wellness, empowering those to take control of their mental
health with natural, unapologetic tools born from
lived experience. We are so happy to have you
here, Allison. Hi everyone, I'm Allison.
I'm the founder of Reroute Wellness.
I have a panic disorder that I was diagnosed with a few years
(05:09):
back and it's something that I definitely have had to learn to
live with and kind of figure outhow to lessen my panic attacks
and almost get over it in a way which I still haven't completely
gotten over it and don't know how realistic that is this soon.
But it's definitely, I've definitely learned ways to take
(05:32):
my panic attacks from having them every single day to having
them not very often, like maybe once in a blue moon, which is
very nice. Wow, Allison, that's, that's
really impressive. It sounds like you've done some,
some really good work in, in your treatment.
And I, I'm, I'm excited to talk to you because I think one thing
(05:56):
that we haven't fully said out loud, Caitlin, and that I recall
in the podcast so far is burnoutin, in the stress response cycle
is anxiety. You know, like they're very,
very closely related. And often times part of what
causes folks to recognize that they're burned out are the
anxiety symptoms. And the way that we end the
(06:20):
stress response cycle is also very similar to how we manage
our anxiety is specifically panic attacks.
So Allison, I'd, if you don't mind telling us a little bit,
Oh, sorry. I want to say one more thing
too. I don't want to forget to say
this. So I've, I've been a therapist
for a little while now. And when I first was studying in
(06:42):
Graduate School, there was this very kind of clear messaging
that we as therapists are blank slates.
And while we ourselves are instruments and tools of
therapy, our stories are not. And so there is this very clear
(07:05):
delineation between our lived experience and, you know, the
the others, the other being the clients, like they have the
problems. We, if we do, we keep that to
ourselves. And, you know, and, and so I
noticed there is this real messaging and that that started
(07:26):
to come out in the world of therapy that like they, you
know, they're, they're the people that are struggling and
we have our stuff together. And if we don't, we don't tell
anyone, including our peers, including our colleagues,
especially not our bosses, you know, And then this wonderful
thing started happening in the world of mental health where
folks who identified as peers, which is someone with lived
(07:51):
experience, started to be sitting at the tables, right?
They started to be a part of treatment teams.
They started to be supporting folks, receiving services and
suddenly as therapist, we were confronted with this idea that,
oh, like our experience could actually help someone.
What, you know, mind blown. So I, I am so excited to be
(08:13):
talking to you, Allison, becauseyou are someone who very much
uses your lived experience as a form of helping others heal.
So would you mind sharing a little bit about your story and
how you came to the work that you're doing?
So it started getting really badaround 2021, like the beginning
of the year. And I didn't really know what it
(08:34):
was at first. So honestly, when I would get
these panic attacks, I completely convinced myself that
I was dying. Like I would literally think I
was having a heart attack or that I needed to go to the
hospital. And it was terrifying.
Especially the first one that I ever had that was truly bad.
Like I remember my heart rate was so high I I would constantly
(08:55):
be feeling my pulse. It was just so bad.
And especially when I was with friends it that was honestly
when it was the worst for me because I got really
embarrassed, which I know they didn't think it was embarrassing
and they would try to help me and tell me that it wasn't.
But in my head, I was just always feeling so ashamed that
my friends were going to think it was embarrassing or that I
(09:18):
was embarrassing myself around new people, anything like that.
And that's kind of where for my,the reason I started my business
in general is because I wanted to make something that empowered
people that struggle with the same thing I do to not feel
embarrassed. Because I know mental health is
becoming more talked about nowadays and it's not as taboo.
(09:39):
But I think one thing that a lotof people don't focus on is the
shameful part of it. And I don't really hear a lot of
people talking about how they feel embarrassed about how they
feel. And that was one thing that I
really struggled with again, like I haven't, I haven't heard
a lot of people talk about. And that was one of the worst
things for me was feeling embarrassed calling an
(10:00):
ambulance, which I did one time and just certain things like
that because of a panic disorder, which later on I found
out that it was just anxiety andit wasn't anything with me.
Like I wasn't dying. I wasn't, didn't have any issues
because I did go to the doctor and they did check different
things. But yeah.
And once I found out that that'sjust what it was, I think the
(10:23):
more I had them and the more I realized that what was happening
was just my like trauma responseor my anxiety, that's when they
started to lessen and I started to get them less and.
Less, I sincerely appreciate your perspective, Allison,
because you're absolutely right.We don't talk a lot about the
(10:46):
associated feeling of shame withhaving this kind of response.
And you're reminding me very much of one of the first
indicators that I had leading into the realization that I was
burnt out at work. When I would get so nervous
about volatile situations at work, but turning into like a
(11:08):
day-to-day occurrence where I physically could not stop
shaking. And the first response to that
being, I'm so embarrassed if anybody sees what's going on
here because I, I, if I had like, have to hold a piece of
paper or something like that, it's going to become that much
more obvious and everybody's going to think that there's
(11:30):
something wrong with me. And again, like internalizing
that experience that, you know, it's like, somehow I have failed
because there's something wrong with me.
I'm having this reaction, but ofcourse, like once we take a step
back and see that it is a reaction in in those cases to an
(11:51):
external situation, a prolonged problem, again, external
problem. It's the stress response.
That's that's nothing to be ashamed of.
And for everybody listening, if you get nothing else from this
podcast, please know that you'renot less of a person for having
(12:13):
having this response. There's there's not something
inherently wrong with you and there are a lot of solutions.
And so that's another reason whywe're very happy to talk about
this today. And, and thank you so much for
for sharing your experience. Caitlin, I absolutely agree with
you and I and Allison, I'm so excited to talk about shame with
(12:36):
you, which is such a weird sentence.
This is like, I'm so excited because I will share in my work
as a therapist right now. I had this huge realization just
a little while ago, but I think I've talked about here before
that I, I, I'm someone who workswith folks who are experiencing
(13:03):
burnout. And in that work, I actually
started to do some, some treatment of ADHD.
And so a lot of folks would cometo me and say I need help with
time management or I need help with my scheduling.
And I would help them with that.And then we would hit a wall
every time, every time. And realize, first of all, that
(13:27):
they actually could dance circles around my knowledge of
these things because they had ADHD and they'd already done the
deep, the deep dive, right? And and knew all the things and
just like everything else they tried, these hacks were not
working. I suddenly realized the wall was
(13:49):
shame. And if we weren't working
through the shame, I couldn't help them any more than a TikTok
video. So I'm curious, Allison, how you
recognized the S word right, shame and and how you've, you
know, if you're in the process of working through it or how
you've worked through it, Pleaseteach me.
(14:11):
Yeah, so I actually learned or Ifigured out what I was feeling
because of my old therapist. Actually, I went to, I've been
going to therapy for, I think I started going to therapy.
Well, I started a while ago, butI restarted therapy in 2020.
And then I actually just recently stopped with my
(14:33):
therapist back in March of this year, which is really crazy
because I, I'm so used to like going to therapy, talking to her
every week or every other week. So it's been a couple months
about it, and it's nice to feel like I've come such a long way.
But she's actually the one that helped me recognize that what I
was feeling was shame because I would kind of tell like, I
(14:54):
didn't really know what that wasfor some reason.
And I would talk to her about mypanic attacks and then I would
tell her like, for some reason it made me feel so nauseous,
like being around people. I just felt this weird feeling.
And then I didn't even know if Iwanted to like to see these
people again. And that's when I realized that
I was just feeling so embarrassed for no reason.
(15:15):
And especially because a lot of this was happening when I was in
college at Michigan State. And I would have panic attacks
during class sometimes, which I know you mentioned, Caitlin,
about folding a piece of paper and not wanting people to see
you shaking because of anxiety. And that's kind of how I felt,
especially even just sitting in the big lecture halls, because
(15:37):
MSU is a humongous school and a lot of our a lot of my classes
were in these huge lecture hallsof like 304 hundred people.
And I remember I'd be sitting inmy seat like of course, not
knowing anybody and I would justbe freaking out.
And there's a couple times whereI did have to leave the class
because I literally couldn't breathe.
(16:00):
And like, one of my things that I always did was feel my pulse,
which, Oh my gosh, I always got so embarrassed from that
specifically. And I didn't want people to see
me. So I would like sit in my chair
and just be like looking around,trying to look not suspicious, I
guess. And yeah, that was probably one
of the most embarrassing parts for me was when I was in college
(16:23):
trying to hide how I was feelingin these classes and everything.
And I honestly am not even sure what kind of made me get out of
that exactly. But the more that I did do
therapy, the more that I talked to my therapist and realized
what was happening is when I kind of had that breakthrough
and started not feeling embarrassed, which eventually
(16:44):
led to me having less panic attacks, I think.
I, I especially relate to the, the feeling like it's, it's one
thing to experience a panic attack or an anxiety attack,
like as you experience it, but also to experience it on such a
public level. It's like 1, one of those
(17:04):
situations where, I mean, just like you said, you can be
surrounded by, you know, hundreds of people in a lecture
hall and, you know, never feel more alone in your life.
And also like that to turn into a feeling of, you know, there's,
there's a like hundreds of eyes on me right now, which only
compounds the situation. And I, I also wanted to ask you
(17:30):
in, in those kinds of situations, like, especially
since you empathize with this situation.
For example, if you were back like in that lecture hall and
like the person next to you, do you think you would be able to
tell if they were having like some kind of panic attack?
And if so, like even as a a stranger, like what would what
(17:53):
would you do to I? I don't know if I would say like
directly help them, but just like be be a supportive voice.
Yeah, I feel like because I've become so open about like all of
my mental health, everything recently, I feel like it would
be I would definitely want to hopefully be able to help
(18:16):
someone if I did notice that they were having a panic attack.
And I think I maybe possibly would be able to tell just
because I know like the signs and even like the secret signs
of like for me, I would be looking around a lot and just
like the shakiness and like the weird breathing, there's
(18:36):
different things that you can kind of tell even if they're
very mute and quiet, you can kind of tell when someone is
having 1. And I don't know because when I
think about it, if I was having one and someone noticed and they
were trying to help me, I think I would appreciate that a lot.
And I would like want to talk tosomeone about it because I think
(19:01):
talking about it does actually help a lot.
But I don't know if everyone does feel the same way.
I know some people maybe would, like I said, be embarrassed if
someone was like, hey, like, do you want, do you need any water?
Do you want to go walk around? The go outside the lecture hall
and just walk around for a little bit, which is something
that I did a lot. I would walk around.
(19:23):
But yeah, I don't know, like I would want to help, but at the
same time I don't know how the other person would feel about
that, if that makes sense. Yeah, I can definitely see that
too, because like there, there'sa fine line between like
offering help to a stranger, butthen also like not wanting to
put somebody on the spot. So I can definitely understand
(19:45):
that. Allison, you're dropping so much
wisdom. I think you you bring up a
couple of great points there that I think we can all learn
from here because we're talking about two different things.
Actually, we're talking about anxiety, which is.
The, the kind of the foundation of a panic attack or
(20:06):
embarrassment leading to shame. And so in dialectical behavioral
therapy, we call that the secondarrow emotion.
So there's the, there's the basic emotion, which is, you
know, whether it's fear, anger, sadness, kind of kind of the
primary colors of emotions. And then often times we have a
(20:31):
feeling about having a feeling. And that's where things like
embarrassment, guilt, shame start to come up.
Sometimes the second arrow emotion is anger, right?
Depending on what's going on, like angry at ourselves for
feeling something. So Allison, you, you brought up
this really important point thatso if a person's having a panic
(20:54):
attack, I want to just highlightfirst of all, that panic attacks
are unique and that they are a mental health experience
diagnosis that happens on the outside that's very visible.
True panic attacks. They're hard to miss.
They can be loud. They can, you know, it can
(21:16):
involve vomiting, it involves passing out, right?
They can, they can get really a lot of people.
Do you think they're dying when they have they're having a panic
attack? It can be painful.
And so it is one of the only mental health experiences that
are on the outside that are out loud.
(21:37):
So there's a so I also like how you highlighted sometimes panic
attacks happen because you're afraid of having a panic attack.
So it's like I'm having and now I'm like more nervous about
having panic. And then if you add shame on top
of that, correct me if I'm wrong, Allison, like it in my
experience of having panic attacks myself, it just, it
(21:58):
exacerbates the panic attack, right?
Yeah. Yep, that's exactly how I would
feel too. And that's why a lot of the
times, I guess going back to thelecture hall thing, because for
some reason that specifically was where I would have them a
lot in school. But yeah, that's why a lot of
the times I did end up leaving the class and trying to go to
(22:19):
the bathroom or walk around until I calmed myself down
because for me, like, depending on where I was, my panic attacks
are definitely more visible. There's a lot of times where
like, I'll start crying because of them because I, I just freak.
Like I, I just spiral when I have them.
Like I completely convinced myself that I'm going to like,
(22:40):
pass out or like just die. It's crazy how your mind
convinces you of these things that are not even happening in
real life. But yeah, so yeah, I completely
understand that. And it sucks that a lot of the
times they are so visible because then that leads you to
that second emotion like you said, and then it just snowball
(23:03):
effects from there. And one of the things I
appreciate, Allison, is you've done a wonderful job not only of
sharing your story, which helps to combat shame when it comes to
mental health and, and seeking support, but you have some
really great tips on managing anxiety.
(23:23):
I wonder if you'd feel comfortable sharing some of
those? Thank you so much I I feel so
sometimes I feel weird like sharing them 'cause obviously
I'm not a therapist I didn't even go to school for like
anything mental health related. But the only reason I do know so
many tips and everything is because of my years going to
therapy. So I'm very glad and grateful
(23:46):
that I did that. And to other people listening
that may be struggling with this, I definitely recommend
talking to a therapist because it's a lot more helpful than you
would think. But yeah, so some of the tips
that I specifically really liked, one huge thing that I
talk a lot about in different videos, and one of the main
(24:08):
things that helped me is overallexposure therapy.
And my therapist mentioned a while ago that the more that I
would have panic attacks and like fully feel them, then the
less I would have them. Because your brain, it's like a
pattern and the more your brain recognizes it, then the less
scary it feels and the more intense they are.
(24:30):
So a lot of the times, another place where I get really bad
panic attacks and still do sometimes is when I'm driving
and I don't know why, but for some reason when I drive, I've
never even gotten like in a car accident or anything like that.
I just, I just get it really badwhen I'm driving because I'll
convince myself that I'm going to pass out at the wheel or that
(24:51):
like if something's going to happen and I'll be alone and
that no one will be able to liketake over and help me drive, I
guess. But so something I started doing
is like keeping tools on me, like like sour candy or
something to squeeze to like fidget with and just like
different little tools that whenI was having a panic attack when
(25:13):
I was driving, instead of pulling over like I used to, I
just started forcing myself to feel it.
Not in a dangerous way. Like if it was really that bad,
I would definitely pull over. But if it was just starting to
happen, I would just like use mytools and continue to drive and
feel what was happening rather than pulling over and trying to
(25:36):
stop it because sometimes that makes it worse before me, at
least sometimes that actually made it worse.
So yeah, that's like probably one of my biggest tips and one
of the biggest things that I've done to kind of lessen them over
time. As you were talking about not
only learning these tips and skills through your own
(25:57):
experience, but also in your conversations with your
therapist, I just want to take amoment to appreciate, you know,
all of the work that you've put in.
You know, even like up to this point to not not only like coach
yourself through each one of these moments, but to like
(26:17):
reinforce, I'm I'm OK, this doesn't need to like spiral
every time. And like, I have the tools and
the confidence to take each, each one of these moments one at
a time and do do the work to take care of yourself.
So I just want to take a moment and congratulate you for that
because it is hard. And especially when you know,
(26:41):
over such a long period of time,it can, you know, at least
speaking from, you know, my own experience, it can feel like
when I'm when am I going to makemore progress with this?
When am I going to be? And I'm not going to use quotes
fixed because of course, like we're, we're not, we're not a
problem that needs fixing or, oranything like that, but at least
(27:05):
to be able to have, you know, the, the tools and tricks to
help process these things when they happen so that you know,
you can, you can live your life.So, yeah, congratulations on
this incredible work. And going to also what you were
saying about the I, I love the, the pattern recognition, but
(27:26):
also, as you've talked before, and I know you've mentioned this
on your social media too, One ofthe simplest ways that, you
know, we can help calm our, you know, nervous system in those
moments. And honestly, this, this can
also be applied even if you're not having, you know, a panic
attack is bringing as you were talking about bringing your
(27:48):
awareness to the different senses to touch something, to
hear something to, you know, look for something blue to
taste, something different to help bring your awareness out of
only experiencing one thing. I love that.
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like the five
senses are super helpful and trying to ground yourself, and
(28:11):
that's honestly one of the most important things.
Allison, I got really excited when I when I saw your social
media because I did you teach the 54321 technique.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
I do know what you're talking about.
I think I might have made AI, can't remember.
I might have made a video on that before.
But yeah, that's another thing that I learned from my therapist
(28:33):
as well. Do you want to?
Do you want to share what that is?
Correct me if I'm wrong in the order, but this is what I
remember. OK, it's 5 things you can see,
four things. Oh my gosh.
I can't remember if it's four things you can hear or if it's
four things you can touch. OK, yeah.
(28:56):
So 5 things you can see, 4 things you can touch, three
things you can hear, two things you can smell, and then one
thing that you can taste. Yes.
Was that right? OK.
Right on. I couldn't remember like.
Right on that's one of my most favorite like grounding
(29:17):
techniques because you can do itanywhere at any time.
And it's also like also connectsyou with joy because what I what
I tell people when I'm teaching them this is for their first
response is like, how do I not know about this?
Like why don't they teach this to us in school?
You know, because we don't always like have something we
(29:37):
can taste or smell necessarily in front of us.
So it's like, what's your favorite smell?
You know, what's your favorite thing to taste?
What's your favorite meal or dessert or something?
Or like you said, Allison, like have some, some good mince or,
or like what do they call those?Like the the hot tamales or
(29:59):
something like spicy or sour things in your so that you can
have that as a grounding tool. So I really appreciate you
sharing that, Allison, because that's a really effective tool
that any of us can do it at any time.
And it, it absolutely helps withanxiety because any moment that
you're thinking about this moment, you are not anxious.
(30:22):
Like if you're truly in this anxiety is the often associated
with the future. Depression is often associated
with the past, so anytime we're very much in this moment, we
tend to not be fully experiencing either one of those
things. Caitlin, you and I were vibing
(30:43):
because I wanted to really highlight Allison, that in
sharing your story, you're sharing The Dirty little secret
that I often hate sharing with people that the, the way to
treat anxiety is through anxiety.
(31:05):
And so I often, you know, when, when folks are coming to me for
anxiety, I often have to be like, I'm so sorry, but what I'm
going to ask you to do is to experience anxiety, which means
folks who have gone through and stuck with treatment for anxiety
are incredibly courageous. So I'm wondering if you can
(31:27):
speak at all, Allison, to like what it was like to be like, oh,
in exposure therapy, I have to experience things.
I'd have to sit with it. I have to be in my body.
Like, what was that like at 1st?And how did you access the
courage to to to go through that?
Yeah. So I guess this kind of relates
to before I even started doing or like forcing myself to do an
(31:51):
exposure therapy type type action.
I tried medication at 1st and I'm not saying I'm against or
for medication. Everyone is different and I know
that everyone reacts different. But for me at least it did not
work at all. It actually made my anxiety
worse and I don't know why but that was just for me.
(32:12):
It didn't react well with my body.
And I think in my head, like taking new like medications
scared me so much that it would cause me to have anxiety.
So I tried that at 1st and then after I stopped taking
medication, I that's when my therapist was like, OK, we're
going to try this. And I've always been someone who
(32:34):
like really wanted to put in thework to, to feel better and to
not have panic tests as often. Like I didn't just like listen
to what she said and kind of ignore it.
Like I like truly wanted to put in the work.
So I would like straight up force myself to do certain
things. So for example, like I said,
when one of the main places I get panic taxes in my car when
(32:56):
I'm driving. So I remember a couple things I
used to do was I would have one of my friends sit in the
passenger seat. So that just in case like some
something happened which it wasn't going to, but in my head,
just in case something happened that I would have someone there
with me. And specifically the highways
not night was when they got really bad.
(33:18):
So I would wait till night time and have my friend with me and
literally just go on the highwayand just kind of go in a loop
like around where my house is just to feel like I'm OK.
Like it was nice having someone with me 'cause it's like there's
someone there just in case and I'm doing this thing and nothing
bad's happening. So it's like that pattern
(33:38):
recognition that you mentioned. And one of the times that I
truly had like the most confidence to push myself even
further with exposure therapy was last year.
It was last summer for my birthday.
I ended up driving to Nashville from Michigan for my birthday
with my friends. And I remember telling them
(34:01):
like, OK guys, I'm going to force myself to drive the whole
8 hours. Like don't switch with me.
Even if I ask like just let because they all know about my,
my panic attacks, like I, I, I mean, they've seen it happen in
real life. So obviously they were going to
know about it. I was just like, OK, just let me
do it. And that was like a huge turning
point for me because that's whenlast year after that was when I
(34:25):
truly realized a huge difference.
And I haven't, like I still get them sometimes but barely is
often at all now because of thathuge 8 hour car ride where I was
just driving on the highway the entire time and forcing myself
to do something that scared me so much.
Truly remarkable, Allison, that you, you're reminding me of a
(34:51):
story of someone that I treated who would have a panic attack
when he got into his car. And we did what was called the
laddering down technique, which is, you know, well, what does
that mean? And what does that mean?
And we get a little bit further down, a little bit further down.
And he was able to remember thatthere was a time where he his
(35:14):
car broke down in a tunnel in the middle of a big city.
And he remembered specifically this moment where he had to get
out of his car and felt like, you know, he was about to get
hit by a SMI And so, right. And so he, you know, I think the
thing that he recognized was he's like, I'm not afraid of
(35:35):
driving. I'm afraid of dying, right?
And of course we're going to be afraid.
You know, like that's a terrifying experience.
And he was just reliving that every time he got into his car.
So it's so wonderful, Allison, that you have Speaking of shame,
right? Like you've brought people into
your treatment team, your friends who can be there with
(35:56):
you and support you as you're knowing that I might, you know,
I might really feel anxious, I might have a panic attack and,
and having you here helps me know that worst case scenario, I
can pull over, you can take over.
But I'm wondering, Allison, whatit was like to have those
conversations with your friends at first or when they saw your
(36:16):
first panic attack, and how did you work through that with your
friends? Mm hmm.
Yeah, honestly, I have such amazing friends and I'm so
grateful for that, that they're so like caring and
understanding. So that is a huge part of it.
But I, I can't even honestly remember the first time I like
(36:36):
really mentioned it to them. I remember the first time I had
a really bad one was with one ofmy friends, Marissa.
And she was, I just remember this so vividly 'cause it was in
a backseat of our other friend'scar.
And that was like one of the first times I like really had a
panic attack. And like she was just so nice.
Like we pulled over and I was just breathing for a bit and she
(36:59):
was like talking me through it, I guess.
And that was like one of the first times I remember having
one and talking to my friends about it.
And then the more I had them andlike with my other friends being
there, like specifically the Nashville situation, they all
the other three friends of us, but they all knew about my panic
(37:20):
attacks before this because they've either been there when
it's happened or actually, yeah,they've all been there when it's
happened. Like I've just had so many of
them back in the past that pretty much all my friends have
been there, at least for one. And yeah, so I think that's why
I didn't really feel scared, like telling them like, hey,
this might happen. I might have to pull over and
(37:42):
switch, but I'm going to try my best not to have that happen.
I'm going to try my best to makeit all the way through.
And yeah, I think like a huge part is just having a support
system that is, that cares aboutyou, but also giving that back
as well. Like you don't want it to be A1
sided thing like, if that makes sense.
Oh. Absolutely.
And I mean, what, what a, what atreasure, you know, to have
(38:06):
great friends like that that arenot only understanding, you
know, but hold space for you in,in that way.
And also, as you said, you know,you guys hold space for each
other in that way is so incredibly helpful, especially
like when you're first becoming comfortable talking about it.
And when I used to have panic attacks on a more regular basis,
(38:31):
part of like my communication tomy friends would be in, in these
moments, it would be really helpful, like, for, for you to
ask like, do you want like a reassuring presence?
Like I'm, I'm here, you're not alone.
Or do you want a distraction? And sometimes I, I would ask
them, you know, yeah, I'd, I'd really appreciate a distraction.
(38:54):
And yeah. So sometimes they would just
like make up these really weird stories and just kind of like
go, go on a rant themselves and that that would be incredibly
helpful. So, and, and also just like
recognizing our community in general as well.
Like, and going back to what we were talking about a little bit
before in terms of the same aspect, if more of us talked
(39:18):
about, you know, our experienceswith anxiety, whether it's, you
know, a, a once in a while experience or you know, a daily
occurrence, I think we would help normalize that experience a
lot more to be able to to share our experience and don't feel so
(39:40):
weird about it. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, let's get, let's get rid of some of the shame and shaming
when it comes to receiving mental health services, to
having mental health struggles. Let me tell you, everyone has
them. That's the thing that I think is
not said out loud, like everyonehas mental health struggles.
(40:04):
They might not become something that is a diagnosis, but
everyone experiences grief at one point or another.
Everyone experiences anxiety. I will say one of the things I
like to tell folks. There have been documented cases
of folks who have had brain injuries that have caused them
(40:28):
to no longer experience anxiety.What do you think happened?
Any any guesses as to what mighthave happened in those
situations? Oh gosh, I have no idea.
My my brain wants to to also. I just realized what a meta
statement this is. My brain wants to explore the
(40:49):
neuroscience. Behind you.
Whoa, whoa, that's a lot. Speaking about my brain in the
third person, what's what's happening here?
But I I want to say it's like damage to a specific part of the
brain. Yeah.
So one in one situation their amygdala was calcified.
(41:14):
Wow. Yeah, that's crazy.
Right. Yeah.
So they, they, they, the amygdala is like the smoke alarm
of the brain. So when any kind of perceived
threat comes through any one of our five senses, everything goes
through the amygdala and it is what turns on the fight or
flight response. So it's very much like a like a
(41:36):
smoke alarm and is falsely triggered very much like a smoke
alarm a lot and sometimes accurately triggered.
But any guesses as to as to whathappened for those for a couple
of folks who couldn't experienceanxiety anymore?
I feel like something bad probably because if you don't
(41:56):
have like a fight or flight thenif something actually is
happening to you, wouldn't you not know how to respond to it?
You are right on Allison. So the first the the I believe
is a woman who whose amygdala was calcified.
She ended up getting mugged 3 times in like 3 separate spaces.
(42:17):
Just Oh my gosh. Became a part of her normal
experience because you think about it like, we know not to
walk down a dark alley at night,right?
You know, or like have a conversation with that nice
person who is, you know, lurkingin the corner, right?
We just know not to do that. She lost the ability to, you
(42:39):
know, discretion. Basically another person.
I I think it was just kind of a more traditional brain injury.
They, they ended up having to hire basically bodyguards for
him because he would, you know, I want to try flying and he
would just kind of go jump off of things or, you know, that
that kind of thing. So you're exactly right,
(42:59):
Allison. Anxiety is important.
We don't want to get rid of our anxiety and yet it's about
finding that balance of using itas a signal and information and
not running our lives. Yeah, exactly.
Honestly, even just in, in termsof like giving, giving a visual
(43:22):
to that mechanism, Lindy, like you said, you know, it's, it's a
smoke alarm. And I think about in all the
places that I've lived with the different, you know, smoke
alarms, yeah, sometimes they, they go off mistakenly or heaven
forbid, like when the battery goes out and they just, you
know, they won't stop beeping. It's more of an annoyance than
(43:43):
anything else. But I mean that I've, that's a
great visualization for that mechanism because the, the more
that I personally have like started to learn to recognize
when those alerts happen, that even just a simple recognition,
(44:05):
almost like, you know, talking to your anxiety as like a
disembodied person. Like I know that you're here to
protect me and I know that you think there is some kind of
danger happening right now. And I appreciate you for what
you're doing, but I'm not currently in danger and in
another like form of mechanism. And this kind of goes back to
(44:28):
like some tips that we were talking about before.
But it also reminds me of a couple years ago, I was in a
pretty bad car accident and had a lot of like very specific, you
know, car related anxiety afterwards.
And I had read about flooding therapy.
And because I, I didn't want this to be a new reality of like
(44:50):
being terrified every time I wasin a car and just like
constantly being on that expectation that something was
going to happen. I used to watch a lot of car
crash compilations on YouTube. Wow.
Wow. Talking, talking of courage.
Wow. So like if I, and to this day, I
(45:12):
feel like it's, it might be kindof like a weird approach, but it
helped so much because it was almost like recognizing, OK,
yeah. And anxiety, you're, you're here
to protect me and, you know, be a warning for those things that
either are happening or might happen.
And I appreciate that heads up. But like, that was a great way
(45:36):
to kind of reinforce like, OK, this this doesn't happen every
day, but just re reframing that experience.
And I'm happy to say that it, ithelped a lot.
And even nowadays, like if I'm feeling particularly stressed
out just because the, you know, the day or whatever, it doesn't
have to be car related. Yeah, sometimes, you know, I'll
(45:57):
watch like 10 minutes worth of like car crash compilations.
So much better. You heard to hear first, folks.
Best cure for anxiety is car crash compilation, right?
I am so impressed with you, Caitlin.
I don't know that I could make that happen for myself, but wow,
(46:19):
glad it worked. That's great.
I I just want to thank both of you.
This has been such a wonderful conversation.
Thank you so much, Allison, for your vulnerability and your
willingness to share and for what you're doing in the world
to help normalize anxiety and the need for mental health
(46:40):
support and, you know, giving really helpful information on
kind of just ways of managing. And thanks so much for taking
the time to come visit us here in the Burnout Break Room.
Yeah, thank you both so much. Honestly, this is such a great
conversation and it's so nice tobe able to talk about something
that of course you both understand.
(47:01):
And it's just, yeah, it was a really good conversation.
So thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely, and thank you also for being here, Allison, It,
this has been a wonderful conversation and we've, I feel
like we've done so much good work today.
And in terms of, you know, normalizing these conversations,
getting them more out in the open.
(47:22):
And for anybody that wants to share their experience or their
top tip that has helped them themost through their anxiety or
any like panic, panic attack related experiences, please
share them in the comments. Let us know and we'd, we'd love
to, to share them with folks as well.
So, but thank you for being here.
(47:43):
And Allison, when you're not in the break room, where can people
find you? Yeah.
So my business Instagram is at reroute Wellness REROUTE and
then my TikTok is reroute Wellness official and then my
website is just www.reroutewellness.com.
(48:07):
Wonderful. And Lindy, when you're not in
the break room, where can peoplefind you?
Folks can go to my website, lindylarimore.com.
They can also find me on Instagram at Lindy Larimore or
LinkedIn also at Lindy Larimore.And Caitlin, what about you?
Where can we find you? Nowadays, you can find me at
(48:30):
caitlintrujela.com, but otherwise you can find me on
Instagram, Tiktok, generally social media, at Creative
Caitlin, and I'm also on LinkedIn as well at Caitlin
Trujela. And please stalk us at the
(48:50):
Burnout Break Room on Instagram and YouTube and Facebook.
We love comments. We love hearing about your
burnout experience. Tips and tricks.
Yeah, come, come be our stalkers.
We reckon. We highly invite you to do that.
(49:11):
Absolutely. Well, thank you all for joining
us here in the burnout break room today and we will see you
next time. Bye bye.
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