September 8, 2025 • 64 mins
🛡️ When you understand who you are, you become clearer on protecting them. Join us as we bring the Break Room to the film set of Shutter Island, Massachusetts Medfield State Hospital to hear Marie Nagode share her burnout story through a career in tech, motherhood, and boundary-setting.
Welcome back to the Burnout Break Room! The podcast that's like a break room, but helpful. Join us every Monday to escape the hustle spiral. Think of it as a break room—if your coworkers actually talked about real solutions instead of just complaining about meetings that could have been emails. We’re diving into burnout with a realistic lens, spilling the tea on how to reclaim your energy, and finding creative ways to step off the hamster wheel (without burning everything down… probably). Grab your coffee, take a breath, and let’s break the cycle together!
🧘♀️ Marie is a successful entrepreneur and experienced Wellness Consultant combining a life-long passion for teaching with an ongoing pursuit of well-being. With a strong foundation of professional training, she incorporates enthusiasm, creativity and collaborative skills into engaging programs based in mindfulness and yoga that are accessible to all.
Connect with her on LinkedIn
📗 Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book and on a hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at https://caitlantrewhella.com/
📙 Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach and licensed Therapist, and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helful, where we look at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and sill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujillo, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist and certified career coach.
(00:20):
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. How you doing Lindy not?
Bad Summers wrapping up, although by the time people are
hearing this, it might be might be into fall.
I don't know, but we're in this moment.
Summers wrapping up. I, I will share in case anyone,
(00:40):
you know, benefits from this that I definitely like.
Last week I kind of ran into a little bit of, I'll call it low
key burnout. And I discovered for myself that
I was on my phone too much. And so I just had to start
(01:01):
making some decisions about the amount that I was using my phone
and what I was using it for. And I put it down and I feel
like a new human. Love that.
And it's, it's interesting that you say that too, because I feel
like a little bit of self-awareness and also, you
(01:23):
know, being honest with ourselves about our daily and
weekly habits and stuff like that.
And, and checking in about how we're actually feeling makes a
really big difference too. Because when we're aware of
things, when they start small, we can address them before they
get bigger. So I really appreciate you
(01:45):
sharing that. I can be honest and share that I
experienced something similar, although it's not, I don't
consider it as so much like being on my phone a lot, but I
was doing a lot of the like listening to YouTube while I was
doing other things. So it was kind of like that
(02:05):
multitasking. And I realized that I started to
prioritize work that I could multitask with in that way.
So yeah, taking taking some timeto like re prioritize what what
(02:27):
needs my attention and in the same way spend less time online
has made a really big differencefor me as well.
It actually resulting in me writing more.
So kudos there. Caitlin, it's so, it's so funny.
You know, we, we talk about all these very elaborate things that
we've done to walk away from burnout.
(02:48):
We've, you know, quit careers. We've, we've started businesses.
It was a great reminder that, oh, I could also just put my
phone. I could text less, huh?
And you're right, like my brain feels far more clear.
I feel the multitasking. So I exactly to your point,
(03:10):
Caitlin, it sounds like we're ina similar chapter.
I was texting while doing other things.
And so it became this, this constant, like I'm doing this
thing, but I have this person toget back to.
So it felt like a, there was that ADHD thing where if I don't
(03:32):
do it now, it'll never get done.So it just felt like a constant
kind of thing hanging over my head.
So I, I, I stopped thinking so much about that.
I started remembering that the thing about text messages is you
don't have to answer right away.And so I now have a much more
(03:55):
clear head cuz I'm doing one thing at a time.
Like you're basically exactly what you just said.
I feel that so much, and honestly, I feel like I came to
that realization when I was giving somebody else advice,
ironically. So a friend of mine was in the
(04:20):
process, like we were in the process of hanging out and they
were at the same time trying to text their like work friend back
about some like book recommendations because the
friend had asked for like a listof like four or five within a
particular genre. And so we're talking and they're
(04:41):
saying to me like, I can, oh man, I can only think of four
like this. And this is taking more time
because I can't think of a fifthone to recommend them.
And of course, like, in all the brilliance of, you know, being a
third person to a situation, I was like, well, why is 4 not
good enough? Like, this isn't a homework
assignment. And they physically stopped and
(05:03):
like, looked up from the phone and we're like, you're
absolutely right, 4 is fine. Send done.
So now I need to take my own advice.
Yes. Exactly.
And you know, there was a time when you know, even in in work
(05:24):
situations, text messaging wasn't the norm right there.
It wasn't normal to be getting text messages from your boss
while also in a meeting while also trying to work in a
spreadsheet, right? Like that wasn't expected or or
part of the norm. So I think this also can apply
to work situations like is there, can you wait until the
(05:46):
end of a task to answer that ping or that Teams or that text
message or or whatever it is usually usually yes.
And even if that means training your boss a little bit, that,
oh, I want to make sure I'm doing quality work so I might
get back to you after I'm finished this task.
Yes, absolutely. I love the I I think so much.
(06:10):
And maybe it's also just becauselike I'm, I've been on a kitchen
nightmares kick like while whileI'm doing my my indoor bike.
But the like, the kind of communication, like in a
kitchen, like how much time lefton that salmon chef in 2
minutes? And it's, it's like that very,
(06:30):
very clear communication and like expectation.
And yeah, sometimes you do have to train your manager a little
bit. Because I, I remember, you know,
if I had responded to every individual teams message that
just said, hey, how derailing isthat?
(06:52):
We get nothing done. We.
Get nothing done. Yeah, because not everyone
necessarily thinks along those lines.
And so sometimes it's pretty radical to think of your time in
that way. But you might teach your Co
workers and or do some managing up in order to to get your work
done and not feel burned out at the end of the day.
(07:14):
Yep, I think of Darrell from theoffice when he was learning more
about time management skills andlike time, you know, hacking and
productivity and, and stuff likethat.
And he's, somebody comes into the break room.
It's like, oh, what you're reading.
He was like, it's this is awesome.
It's all about time hacking and like time batching, you know, do
(07:36):
the same type of tasks together so that you can like be more
productive and be more efficient.
Like I brush my teeth in the shower this morning which saved
me like 2 minutes which I just spent telling you about this,
damn it. So Speaking of time management,
(08:00):
we have a bit of an unusual episode for you today.
I had the pleasure of speaking to a friend and colleague, Marie
Nagaty, who kind of I, I know when actually through my former
church gig as a singer, I, you know, performed in churches and
(08:21):
it was such a great reminder that.
So this is a woman that I've known for years as an Alto and
as a flautist. And she approached me when she
found out it, we found out she found out about the podcast and
said, you know, I really want totell my story.
And I was like, that's great. I also knew her to be a yoga
instructor. So I was like, OK, this is
(08:42):
great. You know, do you have a business
you want to promote? And she said, no, I just want to
tell my story. And I have to say, Caitlin, I
was just floored by this by by Marie's story.
Again, I've known her for years.I had no idea.
And I really feel like folks canlearn a lot from her story and,
you know, about boundaries and saying no and about, you know,
(09:05):
when to walk away from somethingthat seems almost like be
careful what you wish for sometimes because you'll get the
thing you wish for and then you might find out it's it's not,
you know, it's not serving you after a certain amount of time.
Such a wonderful conversation. I think we both like got teary
at one point or another. It was it was really wonderful.
(09:25):
I will say the setting was so cool.
We recorded at Medfield State Hospital, so in Massachusetts
and probably throughout the country, but I'm not 100% sure.
You know, they had state hospital programs.
Did they have this in California?
Caitlin? State hospitals, yeah, yes.
OK, cool. So I guess it's a national
(09:47):
thing. I've never actually like paid
attention. So yeah.
So this was the the original version of like a mental health
hospital. And Medfield State is famous for
being part of the set of ShutterIsland.
So if you've seen Shutter Island, you've seen Medfield
State. So it's a beautiful day,
(10:10):
wonderful spot. Felt both it's it's it's very
scenic and very haunting the setting, especially if you know
the history of state hospitals. And it was a little windy, so we
have pretty good recording equipment, but you can
definitely hear some wind. And at one point you might even
hear that we get a visit from a very friendly dog that ended up
(10:33):
in my lap at one point. So it was.
It was a wonderful recording, anopportunity to hear Marie's
story. Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much for sharing this with us, Lindy, and
we definitely look forward to hearing Marie's story.
So without further ado, we take you to Medfield State Hospital
(10:57):
in Massachusetts. Enjoy.
Hello everyone. It's Lindy.
Welcome to the Burnout Break Room.
We're doing something a little unusual today.
I am sitting here with a very good friend of mine, Marie
Magadie. So today we're going to be
talking to Marie because a little bit outside of the
typical format of our podcast, just a conversation across a
(11:22):
picnic table over some coffee about what it is to be someone
who's experienced burnout, who has come out the other side and
who wants to share their story of recovery.
So I know Marie through my former church gig as a soprano
(11:45):
for a church choir. Marie, I know Marie is a lovely
Alto, a talented flautist and and a yoga instructor.
But Marie, I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you
are, what you've done. Where to begin?
Let's begin at the beginning. So I was born in this area, so I
(12:11):
have a lot of history walking these grounds, which is always
kind of nice to be back. I used to walk here with my dad
long time ago. I grew up one town away in
Millis. For those of you in
Massachusetts who know the area,I'm the oldest of four children.
And I think in the context of our conversation today, I think
that's important to mention because I think as the oldest of
(12:33):
four children, I took on the role of caretaker at a very
young age of. Course, of course.
And as I look back over my journey, I realized how that
sort of impacted life decisions and the way I carried myself
through life. So growing up as a the oldest of
four siblings, you know, an Irish family where you're just
(12:57):
kind of expected to always toe the line and set the right
example, there was a lot of pressure on me to work hard, set
a good example, don't ask questions, put your head down.
Do it. You know, I know I'm not alone
in that. So that sort of formed the way I
lived my young life. Music has always been a
(13:18):
tremendous part of my life. And honestly, I think that it
was my savior. I was a music.
I picked up the glockenspiel when I was in 3rd grade and I
was all of three feet, some inches tall.
And after trying to carry it home from school for about 6
weeks, my band director said to me, you know, maybe you should
pick a different instrument. And that's how I ended up
(13:38):
playing the flute. But honestly, from that point
forward, I never looked back. So music has always played a
really important part in my lifeto help me find my social
circles, to help me sort of stepout of my own head into
something. You're as a musician, you know,
sometimes you can set everythingaside and be in the moment with
your music. As an adult, when I graduated
(14:01):
from high school, I moved on to College in Vermont.
I was a reformed Catholic at that point and ironically ended
up at a Catholic college, which was actually kind of nice
because it helped me really sortof understand all the things
that I didn't understand about the religion that I was raised
in. So I graduated college, moved
back home, and at the time you were expected to come home from
(14:26):
school and get a job, so I was working as a genetic research
scientist. I was a biology major in college
and I worked at Brandeis University, also here in
Massachusetts, studying fruit flies for about 18 months.
My dream was going back to to why I chose biology as a major.
I was convinced that I could find the cure for Down syndrome.
(14:48):
I had worked over the summers atthe Charles River Ark in Needham
with a variety of levels of adults and really found that
that spoke to me. And so that was my mission.
But it really it, it didn't quite end up that way.
But anyway, on to Brandeis studying fruit flies,
irradiating their brains to, to figure out which genes impact
(15:12):
the brains in the, in the fruit flies, which scientifically
there's some parallel to, to they can sort of extrapolate
from fruit flies to mice and then to to humans.
And about 18 months in, I just had this crushing feeling that I
was not in the right place. And so I came home and I said to
my dad, I don't know what to do.You know, I'm stuck.
(15:35):
I'm 22 years old. I want to move out.
I want to have a life, but I'm making $6000 a year in 1982.
So that wasn't feasible. So at the time, he suggested
that I sort of pivot and Long story short, I went to work for
a tech company that was founded by one of our neighbors in the
community where I I had grown up, a friend of my dad's.
(15:57):
They took me on, they took a risk on me.
I mean, I was a scientist, right?
And they put me behind a computer and my career just sort
of took off from there. So for the next 20 or so years,
I worked in the tech field and, you know, I just kind of rode
the wave. You know, I didn't really, I
wasn't making a lot of intentional decisions about what
(16:19):
I want to be. And maybe that was because I had
done that in my previous, you know, objectives and it didn't
work out, but I was having fun. I work for Lotus Development in
Cambridge. I was, you know, employee number
270. So I was on the ground floor.
I really got to see what it's like to work for a startup and
watch it grow so that, you know,I got a lot of really good
(16:41):
business experience. I moved into a role as a
telemarketer working for, you know, selling to schools.
And before I knew it, I ended upin Chicago.
And like you do, right as one does, 11 responds to their boss
when they say we need you in Chicago in two weeks, you say
yes because it seemed like an adventure.
(17:01):
So from there, I, I ended up moving into sales and account
management and spent the next 10years, 8 to 10 years moving from
Chicago and eventually landing in Atlanta where I spent almost
eight years. And during that time, I just was
telling my, my kids a story the other day because one of my, my
(17:24):
son's friends is having a similar experience.
I had been moved from our corporate headquarters in
Cambridge with the promise that I would be moved back because my
ultimate goal was to be back close to my family and close to
my friends and my roots. And I ended up in Atlanta, and
the people in Atlanta said we'renot moving back.
And so I had a decision to make.And it was one of the first
(17:47):
times that I realized that I really had to advocate for
myself. I couldn't just let things let
it flow. And so I quit my job and found
another job and then quit that job because it wasn't a good fit
and had a couple more experiences like that where I
just, I was trying things on andthey weren't fitting.
And to make matters even more complicated, because that's the
(18:11):
way I rolled, I bought a house in the middle of all this.
So there was no predictable, it's income flow, but there's a
mortgage, so there's pressure. And I remember waking up one day
and saying to myself, you know, 3 strikes, you're out.
Corporate America. Can't do this anymore.
So I took a step back and started thinking about the
things that I was really good at, which were people teaching.
(18:35):
I had always had a calling for teaching.
They're teaching Sunday school when?
I was living at home, I was ATA in College in biology labs and
teaching sort of came naturally to me and it was an affinity
that I couldn't ignore. And the tech thing was there
too. So I blended them together and
started a consulting company andfor the next 8 years that's what
(19:00):
I did. I my first client was home
people and I reworked an entire computing.
System. Which was was really quite
challenging and I look back and I think, wow, I did that.
But what's really interesting, you know, sort of trying to tie
it back to the whole burnout thing, was I didn't.
See those things? As great things, as huge
(19:23):
accomplishments, I just saw themas a matter of course and people
would say to me, do you realize what you're doing and what
you've built and how you're impacting these companies?
And. And I and I would look at them
and say no. And so I think there was a,
there was some messaging going on behind the scenes.
(19:43):
It was just sort of bringing me back to the just do it kind of
mentality. Yes.
So Fast forward a few more yearsand I came back to this area.
My dad was very sick in 2004 andI moved back because it was
important for me to be here for however much longer he had to
(20:03):
live and I. My sister was getting married.
There was a lot of family stuff going on.
And I never really had, I never really felt like I had a really
strong family network of support.
I was always sort of the black sheep.
I was the one who left. There was some dysfunction in my
family that once you get, once you put distance between that
(20:26):
and yourself, you can see it a little more clearly and coming
back. I, I had framed it completely
differently. And so there was, there was
sometimes when my family just, you know, they didn't understand
me. So I, I kind of felt like an
outlier. So I just decided I'll just kind
of live my life, start out of mybusiness again.
(20:48):
Loved living in the city. And that was.
Sort of the, that's the wrap on my sort of corporate business.
And then in 1995, I met my husband, and that was fortuitous
and we met. Through a mutual.
Friend at a party and I had convinced myself that I would
never be married, that I would never have children.
(21:10):
And then he came along and. Here we are.
Three kids later, yes, three kids, two dogs, 28 fish, 4 cats.
And we don't even. Live on a farm, which is the
ironic. To say, where's the white picket
fence, right? Exactly.
So our our courtship was fast and we met in 1995.
(21:32):
We were married in 1997 and I had my first baby three months
after our first three weeks after our first anniversary.
So it, and again, it was kind of, you know, not I remember
having a moment one day prior tomeeting my husband where I was
walking down the street in Post Office Square in Boston.
(21:53):
I could tell you even what I waswearing.
And I remember saying to myself,I want to get married and I want
to have kids. Like, I don't even know what
happened, but that was the switch.
And I think for so long I had been pushing it away because of
my experience with my family that I just kind of, I assumed
that I wasn't, that I wasn't cutout for it.
And then once I, once I put thatout to the universe, I really
(22:15):
believe that that is why Stuart and I found each other.
He was living, he's from Oklahoma.
I mean, what are the chances? Yeah, what are the chances?
So he and I had a mutual friend.I was working in one of those
corporate office suite type things where we had a shared
secretary. And this guy, Rob, and I became
lunch buddies. And he said to me one December,
(22:36):
he said, my wife and I are having a Christmas party, you
should come. And I was like, I'm over
socializing. I'm just going to hole up in my
apartment and get to the holidays.
And then I changed my mind and brought my friends, walked into
this party, looked down the hallway, and there was my
future, which was kind of cool. So at that point, we accelerated
our courtship, decided we were going to get married, had our
(22:58):
first child. And it was clear to me that I
couldn't do both my business andbe a mom.
So I sold my business. Thankfully, one of the women who
was working for me was at A at the other stage of her life
where her youngest was launchingand she was ready.
So that was an easy transition. But nobody prepared me for being
a mom. I didn't have a good role model
(23:21):
as a mom. And as a result, I didn't really
feel like I knew what I was doing.
I felt like I got thrown into the deep end of the pool.
And that was the first time where I really thought, I can't
breathe. I, I don't know what to do.
I mean, my old, my oldest son was a pretty easy baby.
(23:43):
He came out of the chute, slept through the night at six weeks
really chill. My daughter, not so much Sure.
And when I, when I had her, I, Isuffered from postpartum
depression and that sort of sentme deeper into this whole, I
can't fix it. I'm helpless, but I need to be
the caretaker. And I just felt like I lived
(24:04):
those years in a state of conflict.
And I, I say this a lot to my mykids and to my friends, Like the
body remembers all that stuff, like the trauma.
I, I know trauma gets, you know,I sometimes feel like the word
trauma is overused, but I do also feel that it's appropriate
to say that a lot of these things in my life were traumatic
(24:25):
without me even being harmed outwardly.
So by the time I became a mom, all of this stuff was inside,
but I couldn't press it down anymore, right.
And so that was when I started to realize, OK, I need to do
something about this. And I started therapy, which was
a lifesaver. And I, you know, and I and
(24:46):
thankful that my husband was very supportive and, you know,
my kids, I went on to have a third child and I assumed the
role of being a mom, but I couldn't let go of this other
part of my identity, of course, right.
And, and I think some people do that really well.
I'd like to think that I did it really well some of the time,
but I was always saying yes to other things.
(25:09):
And I remember by the time my son Owen was born, he he was the
only one that we hired sort of apart time caretaker for.
I was home completely with the other two kids.
But I had, at the time that he was born, I had committed to
help a friend of mine start a preschool because as one does
when you have three kids under the age of five, you can start a
preschool. And I think there was some level
(25:30):
of guilt associated with that because I really wish that I had
been able to stay home with Owenlike I did with the other two.
Yeah. So then the kids were born, we
got a couple of dogs. Life was, you know, chaotic, but
in the most beautiful way. My dad passed away sadly.
My sister got married and had her two children and life kind
(25:55):
of went on. And then as we moved forward, my
husband had a number of health issues.
He had a heart attack in 2010, totally unexpected.
And that sort of put me in the role of caretaker on steroids,
right, because I had to buffer my children.
I had to navigate the whole unknown of the situation with my
(26:18):
husband. And I will say, thankfully, the
silver lining of that heart Attack Attack in 2010, as they
found a heart defect that would have killed him if he had not
had the heart attack. So, you know, we revamped our
life. You know, I became the fixer.
I became the, you know, we're going to eat healthy meals.
We're going to, you know, we're going to keep structure in the
house, everything in its place. And the only person who wasn't
(26:38):
getting any attention or any support was me.
I didn't realize it at the time.This is all retrospective, as I
think it probably is for a lot of people.
So we move forward. He recovered from his heart
attack. Life is busy.
We've got three kids playing sports and music, and I was.
I was happy. You know, I was, I was
fulfilled. I I thought, you know, what if I
(27:01):
had to decide, had to define how, what kind of a mom I wanted
to be, I kind of feel like this would be it.
So that was my identity. And then my oldest graduated
from high school and he went offto college.
And I started to see the next phase of things where everybody
had told me they're going to peel off and they're going to
start getting their own lives. And that happened one year.
(27:23):
And then two. Years later my daughter and then
three years later my son. And around the time but before
he he when he graduated from middle school and he went out to
high school. I've been given some thought at
the advice of some friends to what do I want to do next?
And at that time I had been doing yoga for since 2003 when
Owen was born. And I had done some
(27:45):
certifications and kids yoga andsome mindfulness certifications
and things like that. And I thought, well, aha, going
kind of in the same vein that I did when I started my computer
consulting business, what do I like?
What am I good at? What fits in my life?
And it was yoga and meditation. So I approached the school where
he was working, where he was going, he was going to graduate.
And I said, I know he's leaving.He's my last one.
(28:06):
All three of my kids had finished 8th grade at the
school. I don't want to leave.
Is there a place for me? And they've got a place for me.
And so for the next 8 years, I built a program around student
and school Wellness starting from nothing.
And it was really kind of like blank slate.
What would you do? We started with kindergarten
(28:27):
yoga, and it sort of mushroomed from there.
And my head was down. It's just doing it.
Common theme, right? Just get through the day, do it.
And I was enjoying it until one day I looked up and I was
teaching 15 classes a week and Iwas coming home from work and my
(28:47):
husband was looking at. Me and he was like, something's
not right. You're coming home and you're
sleeping for two hours. You're getting up, you're
cooking dinner, and you're goingback to bed.
And in the midst of all that, asyou know, COVID, right, so and
COVID affected schools as significantly as any other
population, I think. And as the Wellness teacher, the
(29:08):
expectation was that I was goingto bring this calm and this
Wellness and well-being to the community.
And I didn't have, I was freakedout.
I mean, I would go to the grocery store and sit in the
parking lot and cry for 20 minutes.
And I just started to have a little bit of imposter syndrome
because I, I kept thinking to myself, I if, if the Wellness
(29:29):
teacher isn't well, how can she bring that to her students?
And that began the beginning of my realization that I had I had
exceeded my capacity, right? And I remember driving to work
one day and saying to myself, where's the joy?
I've lost my joy. And that was such a pivotal
(29:50):
moment, Lindy, because I realized at that point that
everything that my husband had been.
Saying And you know when somebody says something to me?
It would be nice for me to take it under a, you know, in a, in a
constructive way, But a lot of times the Irish in me gets her
back up and says I can prove youwrong, right.
And so I worked harder because if you work harder, of course
(30:11):
things are going to get easier. But the reverse happened.
So 2 1/2 years ago, I, my husband had an had open heart
surgery and at that point I tooksome time off from work.
I just said to my, my, you know,my boss, I, I can't do both.
And my priority has to be here. And I'll tell you it was about 5
(30:34):
1/2 weeks that I took off. And then those 5 1/2 weeks,
everything shifted. My priorities shifted.
I had that distance that I described before of being far
enough away where I could see that I was doing more damage to
me and I was being less effective as a practitioner to
my students. And I went back to to work after
(30:57):
the March break that the school had.
And I gave my notice and I just said, you know, it might.
And it came as a complete surprise to everybody because
I'm really good at covering things up, you know, put on the
happy face, you know, and it. And I think that, you know, for
me, the happy face in the mirrorsometimes frames my mental
(31:18):
attitude. But there's only so much of that
that you can do. So my intention was when I gave
my notice was to take a year because I realized that at that
point I was 62. I'll be 65 in November and I was
62 and 62 years of this wasn't going to unwind itself in a
(31:42):
month, right? Maybe not even a year.
But I felt like if I could startwith a year and if I could get
through a year, I'd see where I went from there.
And so I just went to ground. I, I just said, you know what?
I'm not going to do anything that has anything to do with
what I've been doing except for meditating because that was kind
of my daily. That was the way.
That was what grounded. Me.
(32:02):
And it was a struggle, you know,peeling myself back from that,
you know, work ethic, if you will.
You know, the, the the feeling that I've always got to be doing
something. And I think in some ways that
always doing something was a coping mechanism because I could
ignore all the other stuff if I was just powering through.
(32:22):
Yeah, Right. Oh, yeah.
So that was a real struggle. And I had to actually make a
contract with myself. I had to write it down and just
say, you know, these are the things that you say to yourself
when you're feeling this. And this is these are some of
the things you can do when you're feeling this.
And so I started walking. I started taking much better
(32:44):
care of my own self sleeping. I had had some medical issues.
I believe they were all exacerbated by the stress of
everything that was going on. So I gave myself permission to
take care of me. And I found some great doctors
and I found a great therapist. And I had a great, as I say, a
(33:04):
great support from my husband. He was just like, I just want
you back, right? I just want you to be happy.
And if that means that you don'tever work again, that's OK.
And we're in a fortunate position to be able to do that.
I will say I will acknowledge that and after about a year I
could start to feel the creep. I mean, I enjoyed the year.
You know, I reconnected with friends that I hadn't seen and
(33:26):
read way more books than I have ever read as an adult, which was
reading is my thing, Re immerse myself in my music, which has
been just so great because that is also, as I think I mentioned
my, my social connection. Yes, my 2 musical groups that I
play in right now, they are my people.
And so that that is something that I, I am hopeful will not go
(33:47):
away ever. But about a year in, I was
starting to get that little tingle in the back of my head
like what's next? What are you going to do?
Our youngest son was at that point had just finished his
freshman year in college and he was, he was launched and he felt
like if he survived his freshmanyear, then I could say, OK, he's
going to be all right. So I remember very, very
(34:10):
clearly, we were down at the beach.
We spend a week in Rhode Island every year.
And it was a rainy day. And I said to my husband, I'm
just going to walk to the beach and listen to the waves and
maybe I'll find some seashells or some starfish or whatever.
And I climbed up into the the lifeguard chair and I was
looking out over the over the water.
And this voice said to me, this is what you need to do.
(34:31):
And out of my mouth without any prompting said, I need to start
teaching adult yoga again. And that's when I knew I was
ready. That's when I knew that I had
taken enough time for me. I'd hit the reset button, maybe
not all the way, but enough to where I felt like I was grounded
again. And I was sleeping.
I was, you know, my relationships were all in a good
(34:53):
place. I, I had put myself at the top
of the list, which I think was the very first time in my life
that I had done that. And so now, you know, here we
are 2025. And I'm kind of, you know, I, I
go back and forth with should I be doing more?
Should I not be doing more? But you know, I feel like we're,
I'm in a different phase of lifenow.
(35:14):
My oldest son is engaged. He'll be married next year.
And we love her and her family. My daughter will be right after
them. I think she's just waiting for
her brother to get married. My youngest son is graduated
from college and he's embarking on a year long adventure in
Europe in September because why not?
And I really feel like. Those are the.
(35:35):
Things that I can celebrate now because Stuart and I talk about
this all the time, like we did this, right?
But when you're in it, you're, you're not necessarily thinking
about that. So I guess in summary, what does
my life look like now? Like I've come through this
journey of recognizing the problems, acknowledging the
(35:58):
feelings, living through. The pain.
Dealing with the medical issues and now paper, yes.
You know, I feel like my life isnot always roses.
There are always things that bubble up.
But that's life, right? But I feel much more in control
of the things that I'm saying yes and no to yes.
(36:20):
And that to me, if I can model that for my kids, I feel like
that, you know, if I can do it for myself and then model it for
my kids, I think that's super important.
The other thing that has been a struggle?
For me in the last. Few years is this whole idea of
getting older. It happens, right?
I mean, for a long time I said, oh, it's just a number.
(36:42):
My husband and I are six months apart in age.
So this spring he went through the transition to Medicare.
And we were having dinner with acouple of friends and they were
saying, you just wait until it'syour turn.
Something changes is inside you.And there's the Irish, right?
And he's saying, Oh, no, it's not going to change for me.
But rather than looking at it as, Oh my gosh, I'm getting
(37:02):
older, I'm going to be 65 and I'm going to be on Medicare.
I'm really, really being intentional about saying I am
moving into the next phase of mylife.
And I have so much to the forge.And that really is keeping me,
you know, in the days when I getup and I'm like, we all are.
I think, you know what, I've gotso much to be thankful for.
And I have the time now to notice it.
(37:24):
Whereas. Before.
I didn't. And the the other silver lining
of having an empty house is thatnow my husband and I get to sort
of revert back to where we were,you know, 20.
We've been married for 26 years.26, it'll be 28.
Don't tell him, don't tell him. I messed that up.
I always think of my son's age and I add 1.
(37:46):
So it'll be 28 in 28 years next year.
So 27 this this June and for a long time we just we didn't even
divide and conquer. We were zone defense with three
kids, right? So one was going one way, the
other was going the other. He was running a thankfully a
really successful business. So we kind of were living
parallel lives a lot. And by the end of the day, there
(38:09):
was nothing left for. Each other.
And we've had some really great conversations around how
important it is now that we havethat time to make that time.
And so I'm grateful for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wow. I mean, thank you so much.
What I'm enjoying about this conversation, first of all, is
your openness and vulnerability.But also, I've known you for
(38:32):
eight years now. So I'm thinking back to the
timeline and, and remembering like, you know, conversations
we've had and the timing of those conversations and how I
feel like around the time when some of the, the deeper work was
happening. I, I remember just like we would
just, I'd be lining up in the back of the church, you know, in
(38:54):
my choir robe and you and I would connect and.
It would be a really deep. Connection, yes, very suddenly
and for two minutes. And then I'd go off and sing to
him, you know, And then, but also just when you talked about
it, I was so struck when you talked about the smile, like
putting that smile, staring in the mirror, putting the smile on
your face. Because the other thing I've
(39:15):
always known about you, in short, was the smile, right?
Like my vantage points from where I've always.
Been sitting is I can look and see everyone's faces.
Right. And it and just stare at them
for as you know, no one notices that that's what I'm doing.
I'm always a therapist. I'm I'm paying attention.
You are right and. You.
(39:37):
Always had this. I mean, it's funny because you
always had this kind of serenityvibe, right?
And, and now I'm hearing that you were also very much
struggling at times and very much.
And, and, you know, I also recognize that in certain
communities, it's not always thething to do, to like come in and
(40:00):
be like, listen, people, I'm struggling to yeah, right.
But, you know, some communities I think are a little bit more
about, you know, putting on yourSunday best literally and and
figuratively and, and showing upin whatever way feels OK in that
space. But.
Some of the things that I, I, I was taking notes and some of the
(40:20):
things that really jumped out ofme, I'm just going to name them,
OK? The first thing was when you
said you were talking about early on in your career and I
decided to advocate for myself like it was the first time in
your life. The other thing that jumped out
of me was, you know, it's funny where we, this these parallel
(40:41):
lives. I used to work at Home Depot.
I'm sure I used your computer system.
It was actually really impressive, like it really was.
My dad actually used to to to train people on it.
And no kidding. Yes, Yeah, yeah, that was.
How small a world is that such? A small world and it was a very
impressive and intuitive system.I should have known a woman
designed it. Of course, of course it was very
(41:01):
intuitive. So, you know, you've touched so
many lives without even knowing it, and to hear that you never
recognize your accomplishments blows my mind.
Blows my mind. And I'm not at all surprised.
Not at all surprised. And then when you when you
(41:22):
mentioned you started saying yes, I also, my question is if
we can come back to this, were you also saying no, like when
you started? Yeah.
So like it seems as if you started saying yes to yourself
and to your needs, but I'm curious to know if that required
(41:46):
saying no to other things that maybe you would not have felt
comfortable saying no to, to make room for the yes for
yourself. I suspect yes, I can't think of
a particular example, but I I always come back to this
conversation that I had with thehead of school and my kids
middle school, which is when youadd something somewhere, you
(42:07):
have to take something away fromsomeplace else, right Regard
whether it's a subject or sayingyes versus no.
So I imagine that it's it was probably timed with, you know,
the eye opening ability to advocate for myself to recognize
my personal limits. So I believe, I also believe
that at that point I started prioritizing.
(42:31):
And what are the things that either are necessary?
Because at that point I was still very much a mom and a
homemaker, But also what are thethings that if you know, beyond
being necessary, is this what ishow is this going to serve me
right? And that whole concept of being
selfish is one that I was never,I was never taught as a child.
(42:55):
I I mean myself worth was always.
From a young age. Based on everyone else, on what
I did for other people, on how Imade other people look.
And so for me, that was a revelation.
And it was hard. I mean, it really it was one of
those things where, you know, I would have internal, internal
(43:16):
battles about am I being too selfish?
If I want, if I want to do this,you know, it was a function of
deciding how much of myself I was prepared to give to other
people, not with not realizing that I was giving pretty close
to 100% of myself to my family already.
So there wasn't a lot of buffer,there wasn't a lot of stuff
(43:39):
left. And that is when I started
getting back into my music aftermy after my youngest son was
born. That's when my husband
encouraged me to start finding time for me.
That's when yoga entered my life.
And I had been doing yoga on andoff, you know, over the years
since college. But that's when yoga took a
front seat for me in terms of survival.
(44:00):
I mean, I can't even tell you a 5 minute power nap in Shavasana
is like was like the gift of theday every Saturday morning and
my music and being able to get these things around the
responsibilities that I had yes and then be able to say, you
know, that's not going to work for me, you know, can you host
Thanksgiving dinner this year? I'm sorry, I can't, I just don't
(44:22):
have the bandwidth. Yes.
So there's the no, there's the no, yes, and.
Couple of things are coming to mind for me.
I so appreciate that you named caregiver early on and recognize
that that's how you were socialized, raised to be the,
you know, the position you were in your family and maybe a
(44:44):
little bit and, and you can tellme, you know, if that also feels
like part of your identity, genuinely like, you know, I'm
wondering if part of this journey has been sifting through
what am I told I was supposed tobe and what do I actually feel
that I am? And that can always be a
challenging journey. So the, the burnout book, which
(45:05):
we mentioned on the podcast often by the Nagoski twins, they
talk about caregiver syndrome. So the the 1st chapter of the
book is about burnout and recovery.
So done right, solved. And then the next, the whole
part of the book is all of the ways in which our society
contributes to burnout. And they talk about care,
caregiver syndrome as there are just certain pockets of our
(45:28):
society that are told that they have to be caregivers.
Their role is to care and to give, give, give, give, give,
give or no, Sorry, it's it's giver syndrome.
I'm sorry, it's giver syndrome, but it's in general very aligned
with caregivers. Yeah, giver syndrome.
And and so the nature is my roleis to give, not to take, never
(45:50):
to take. The alternative that that we've
discovered thanks to, you know, great colleagues and and couples
counselors is provider syndrome.So it doesn't just affect women,
the society effects all of us, right.
So if Stuart were here, maybe he'd have some thoughts on that.
You were also a provider, though, in your family.
(46:13):
So when I talk to people, often women, about boundaries, the the
initial conversation is always like, yeah, that sounds great.
This is awesome. I'm fully on board.
And then they come back to the next week, be like, I set a
(46:34):
boundary. It's terrible.
I never want to do it again because of like the guilt and
followed by the shame of who am I?
Who am I to say no, right? So I'm curious to know for you,
Marie, like walk me through whatI'm assuming with some guilt and
maybe even some shame through the process of starting to be,
(46:55):
to say yes to yourself, to say no to others, maybe identify
less as a caregiver or in a different way.
Yeah, so the, the example that comes to mind is related to my
immediate family, my birth family, which has always been,
it's been a very big struggle. I had two brothers and a sister,
(47:17):
and I am very close with one brother and his family and
really don't talk to the other brother.
And my sister and I have had a fraught relationship for a
really long time. And this particular example is
related to prioritizing me around the holidays.
(47:39):
So my birthday is at Thanksgiving every year.
Every year for Thanksgiving, we all get together as a family.
We, you know, celebrate the holiday and we at some point
somebody sings happy birthday and maybe there's a cake.
And maybe there's. Presents and and as I was
growing up, it was fun because Icame from a really big Italian
family on my mother's side and arelatively small family on my
(48:03):
dad's Irish side. But always, you know, it was
always an excuse to get everybody together.
But as we got older and our lives started to take on more of
the individuality as as they do when you are adults, it just
just became a struggle. It was really, really hard.
And, you know, it started to feel very contrived.
(48:24):
And while my mother was still alive, I respected that.
You know, it was more for her than it was about any of us.
There came a day at Thanksgivingwhen I was at my family's house,
and we left and we were on our way home.
And I turned to my husband. And I said, I'm never doing that
again. I'm never doing that to myself
and I'm never doing that to our kids and to you.
(48:46):
So the following year comes around and the expectation is
that we're going to do Thanksgiving.
And I, I said to my husband, we have to have a conversation with
kids. And I was terrified to have this
conversation with my own children about my needs because
I felt like it would make me look selfish and weak.
And we sat them down at the dinner table and we said, how
would you guys feel about changing up our routine at
(49:08):
Thanksgiving this year? Just to see, you know, it's
mom's birthday is on Thanksgiving.
Day she really wants to do X. How would you guys feel and they
to a child, my oldest at the time was maybe 12, which would
have made my daughter 10 and my younger son 8 1/2 or 9.
They looked at me and they said,it's about time, mom.
(49:31):
Like out of the mouths of bees, right?
So I just looked at my husband and I looked at them and I
started to cry. And I was just like, why didn't
you guys tell me? And they said, because we
thought you were OK with it. There's the smile.
I was saying yes. So we agreed that we would say
(49:51):
no. And then I had to present that
to my mom and my sister. And that was really, really
hard. And so I made a way too big a
production of it. We went out of town, we went
away for the weekend. We went to my brother's, my, you
know, my brother up in New Hampshire and we had a great,
great holiday. But I had I had it was a period
(50:12):
of years before I could really let go because my, my sister
wouldn't let it go. She kept calling me every year
saying we need to do this. We.
Need to get. Together for the holiday.
And I was like, actually, we have other plans.
And then the plans came, became we're running away out of town
just to put distance between us 2.
We've identified 2 families who are family less.
(50:35):
And so they became our family because you can pick your
friends, you can't pick your family.
And so it's, it's become this beautiful community.
And I, I just said to my husbandlast Thanksgiving.
Like where would we be if? We had never made that decision.
We'd still be. Toeing the line.
(50:58):
And that, but the struggle was real, like the, the, the, the
guilt of every year for my wholelife.
I mean, even when I lived in Chicago and Atlanta, I was
expected to be home for the holidays, even if I had to sort
of, you know, rework my work schedule or come up with an
excuse to have a meeting here inBoston so I could get the
company to pay for my trip. So letting go of that was really
(51:23):
was was hard, but it's probably 1 of it.
It it's one of the best things that that I did at the beginning
of this whole process. But it's also allowed me to have
very honest conversations with my kids about the things that,
you know, if, if your gut is telling you it isn't right, it
probably isn't right kind of thing.
(51:43):
Listen to your gut and it's OK to say no.
And I, and I'd like to think that I have begun to model that
for them. And I, I did it at an age where
maybe they were still impressionable enough to
understand. And my daughter is still my, of
my 3 kids, my daughter is the one who still has that latent
guilt. Like she can't make something.
(52:06):
She'll say, Are you sure you're OK with it?
And I'm, and I'm just like, you know what?
This is your life jacket. You're like, you're 26 years
old. And you have a busy life and I,
I will make demands on you. But I am OK if you say, jeez,
mom, you know, I just can't. You know, I either I, I have too
much work going on or she's in the fitness field.
(52:27):
And she tends to be like me, puts her heads down and says
yes, says yes to a lot and then wakes up one day and doesn't
realize why she's sick. Oh yeah.
Right of. Course, so if you need a day and
you just need to turn your phoneoff and just hang in the
apartment and watch movies or sleep, that's what you need to
do. So I I'm hoping that you know
(52:47):
it. It took me a long, long time and
I would this happened when I was.
In my mid to late 50s and. She's half my age so.
But isn't it lovely that your children, especially Jackie, has
this model of a woman, you know,a badass woman who's done all
(53:10):
the things, all of the things, right, who knows how to say no
and who who can? Model.
This this term is way overused, but I I've yet to come up with a
better one. self-care, right? And you live it like you're
living it maybe for the first time I'm hearing like truly,
(53:30):
you're starting to truly embody that.
And I'm wondering, Marie, what if, if you are having a
conversation with yourself at Jackie's age, what would you
tell you? In retrospect, yes, given like.
You the one who is having this amazing tech career at that
point, Yeah, Well, on your way to yeah.
(53:52):
What would you tell yourself? I think I would start with slow
down. Just the whole concept of being
present really didn't come to meuntil I started down the path of
yoga. But be present, you know, don't
always be thinking of the next best thing, you know, or the
(54:14):
next thing, whether it's best ornot, that is going to keep you
occupied. I think I would also say, say to
myself, listen to your gut. I preach it, but I didn't live
it back then. I do now.
But you know that your gut instinct is called that for a
reason, right? It, it definitely in, I feel
(54:36):
anyway that it, it, it has guided me in many, many
situations. But it's easy to tamp it down.
It's easy to just say, not rightnow, you know, or, or but what
about this? So I think I would say to her,
if it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right for you.
Whether it's right for somebody else or not.
I think I would tell her to say something positive to herself
(54:59):
everyday. Yeah.
Just. And she's really, she, she's
pretty amazing. I'd like to think all my kids
are amazing. But she, she has had a journey
and she has come out on the other side of her own personal
journey with such grace. And I cry every time I talk
about her, you know, And she, she journals every day.
(55:22):
She's true. I cannot journal.
I will tell you right now, I tried to journal when my kids
were born just so that I could record the special moments and I
got to like 3 months and that was it.
But so she journals everyday. She's always open to, you know,
positive affirmations. She tells herself every morning,
(55:44):
you know, something good about herself and something good that
she has to look forward to. I mean, she's really, she's very
grounded in that way. And I, I look at her and I'm
like, gosh, I wish I could be, could have been like you, but I,
I'd like, I'd like to think thatI had a part.
In that, well, I was going to say that's, that's you, right,
(56:04):
Like that's your influence. I'm sure the the the woman that
she knew as mom like that, that groundedness, that checking in
with yourself, like since I've known you, that's who you've
been. And it sounds like it's just
grown and and blossomed. But you've you've always had the
conversations that we've had were never surface.
Right. Even if they were briefs like
(56:26):
you, you found ways to know yourself.
And yes, did a part of me die inside as a therapist when I
hear people say they don't hear an old course every?
Time, right, So sorry. Just kidding, but you know every
You have found a way to know yourself.
Yeah, it doesn't just have to bejournaling.
And that's what you've modeled. For Jackie, yeah, yeah.
(56:49):
And I'm, I'm happy that I could do that for her because I think
it's serving her well. Yeah.
So yeah, I think those those arethe things that I would have
told my 26 ish year old self. Yeah.
And just be proud of. Who you are and like, don't let
anybody take that away from you.Don't let anybody tell you you
should be anything other than who you are.
You know, body image has always been an issue in my family and
(57:15):
I. We were just joking not too long
ago. About this when she was little
there was a store called Justice.
Do you remember Justice the store?
Her body was just not designed to wear clothes from Justice and
it was tormenting her because all of her friends could go and.
Just pick anything off the rack,she said to me not too long ago,
she said I just. Really want to.
Thank you for guiding me out of that store, leading me out of
(57:37):
that store and taking the placeswhere I can provide the place.
And I felt like A and I was like, yeah, I did that.
Yes, yeah, I did that. I had forgotten about it, but.
But yeah, I think that that is such a big thing, particularly
with women, you know, and I, andI'll be honest, I, I have
struggled with that my whole life.
Sure isn't the messaging that you know, I got when I was
(58:00):
little, but I think. That as I've gotten older, one
of the other. Things that this time away from
the working part of my life has allowed me to do is really kind
of say. Look around, you know, there are
all sorts of shapes and sizes ofpeople and they're all doing the
best that they can. Yes, and the stuff if if people
(58:22):
are going to make a judgement about you, about the way you
look, then you don't need them in your life.
Exactly right. Exactly.
So, yeah, exactly. Yes.
So did that answer your question?
Yes. Beautiful beautifully said One
of the things that you said too that's that's you know in
noticing who you are and who youare, that requires recognizing
(58:47):
first of all, knowing yourself. You talked about like, you know,
not recognizing the accomplishments that they were
happening. And I do think when you're
socialized or raised to give or to fix or to be there for others
in whatever way, it's so easy tomiss, you know, who we are.
(59:11):
Who am I bringing to this table?Not what am I giving to the
table, but who am I? Who am I at this table?
And but the, the, the world shifts.
I, I love how you talked about in the last year, how you world
like shifted because that you have to look to an entirely
different lens when you're considering yourself at the
(59:34):
table. And, and it does require this
protectiveness. And once we understand their
identity open, please start protecting.
It and and valuing. It and there's and there's when
you recognize that there's worthin that.
I've had conversations with several colleagues since I left
(59:56):
my my most recent teaching job. Who have also.
Left and one of them was very honest with me.
She she, she said, you know, I was really surprised when you
decided to leave because you're so young.
Well, first of all, I think people don't realize how old I
really am. I can thank my mom for that
(01:00:16):
because I got her jeans. When I tell people that I'm
going to be 65, they kind of look at me and go you sure you.
Sure, check that calendar. So there was the age factor, but
also I think they they saw what most people saw it's.
OK, that's fine. We're we're happy couple
friends. Oh, hi.
(01:00:37):
No, there's no food. Is she a?
Doodle. Yes.
Yeah, she's very cute. But she's in her happy place.
Have a nice walk. I think that, you know, they saw
what everyone saw, which was that she comes into work every
day and she puts on the mindfulness teacher had and she
(01:00:58):
does the class and then she saves it for when she gets home.
Yes. And then she collapses.
And to not have to do that anymore, it's so free.
Yeah. I mean, it's just yeah, it's
just to show up how I however I am.
And I mean, there are days when I'm not great.
Yeah, not every day is perfect, but.
(01:01:21):
You know, to just show up and tonot feel, you know, we were, we
were having dinner last night, my husband, my younger son and I
and to just be able to just be there 100% of.
What's happening and not feel like, oh, I've got to go do the
laundry or I've got to get my lesson plans ready for tomorrow.
To just be able to to have enough.
(01:01:41):
I don't even know what the word is.
But to be able to say no to all of that stuff because this is
where I want to in this moment. And to have the freedom, I
guess, to make that choice. Whereas before, I don't think I
felt like I had that scene. I felt like the bus was being
driven for me. That's literally the school bus.
Yeah. So that's.
Well, that feels like a drop themic moment.
(01:02:04):
I feel like you summarized beautifully, like your life like
in that sentence, right, like where, how far you come and to
be able to now show up to spaces100% my goodness, that's the
dream. It is.
That's the dream, right? Like to be able to do that,
(01:02:25):
especially at a time when you you have the vitality to be able
to enjoy it and people in your life, you know, to where you're,
when you were at your 100%, you're surrounded by love and
community and you have you have health in a body that works.
(01:02:45):
And, and like what a what an amazing yeah.
And Speaking of gifts, thank youso much.
Oh, it's my pleasure. This is I love enjoyed it.
I hope. What?
I've said is cohesive enough to make some sense.
Well, I've learned some things, so I'm very grateful for that.
(01:03:06):
So thank you, Marie. And I look forward to our
conversation. Indeed, indeed.
Thank you, Lindy. So again, Caitlin, like I said,
it was such an amazing experience hearing Marie's story
and I hope everyone gained a little bit from it.
I know I did. And Caitlin, while you are not
(01:03:28):
in the burnout break room, wherecan we find you?
So you can find me at caitlintrujela.com, so first and
last name, and you can find me at on all the socials, Tiktok,
Instagram, primarily for anybodythat's looking for author
support or general creative support.
(01:03:48):
I do ideation sessions and creative coaching.
And Lindy, when you are not in the burnout break room, where
can people find you? So best place to find me is my
website lindylarimore.com. I'm also on all the socials at
my website. You can find out more about the
(01:04:09):
coaching and consulting work that I do.
I work with clinics and small businesses, some nonprofits, in
improving their leadership and creating spaces that prevent
burnout and promote thriving work groups.
So yes, thank you so much, Caitlin.
It has been such a pleasure. Thank you, Lindy, and we will
(01:04:33):
see you next time in the break room.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helful, where we look at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and sill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujillo, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist and certified career coach.
(00:20):
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. How you doing Lindy not?
Bad Summers wrapping up, although by the time people are
hearing this, it might be might be into fall.
I don't know, but we're in this moment.
Summers wrapping up. I, I will share in case anyone,
(00:40):
you know, benefits from this that I definitely like.
Last week I kind of ran into a little bit of, I'll call it low
key burnout. And I discovered for myself that
I was on my phone too much. And so I just had to start
(01:01):
making some decisions about the amount that I was using my phone
and what I was using it for. And I put it down and I feel
like a new human. Love that.
And it's, it's interesting that you say that too, because I feel
like a little bit of self-awareness and also, you
(01:23):
know, being honest with ourselves about our daily and
weekly habits and stuff like that.
And, and checking in about how we're actually feeling makes a
really big difference too. Because when we're aware of
things, when they start small, we can address them before they
get bigger. So I really appreciate you
(01:45):
sharing that. I can be honest and share that I
experienced something similar, although it's not, I don't
consider it as so much like being on my phone a lot, but I
was doing a lot of the like listening to YouTube while I was
doing other things. So it was kind of like that
(02:05):
multitasking. And I realized that I started to
prioritize work that I could multitask with in that way.
So yeah, taking taking some timeto like re prioritize what what
(02:27):
needs my attention and in the same way spend less time online
has made a really big differencefor me as well.
It actually resulting in me writing more.
So kudos there. Caitlin, it's so, it's so funny.
You know, we, we talk about all these very elaborate things that
we've done to walk away from burnout.
(02:48):
We've, you know, quit careers. We've, we've started businesses.
It was a great reminder that, oh, I could also just put my
phone. I could text less, huh?
And you're right, like my brain feels far more clear.
I feel the multitasking. So I exactly to your point,
(03:10):
Caitlin, it sounds like we're ina similar chapter.
I was texting while doing other things.
And so it became this, this constant, like I'm doing this
thing, but I have this person toget back to.
So it felt like a, there was that ADHD thing where if I don't
(03:32):
do it now, it'll never get done.So it just felt like a constant
kind of thing hanging over my head.
So I, I, I stopped thinking so much about that.
I started remembering that the thing about text messages is you
don't have to answer right away.And so I now have a much more
(03:55):
clear head cuz I'm doing one thing at a time.
Like you're basically exactly what you just said.
I feel that so much, and honestly, I feel like I came to
that realization when I was giving somebody else advice,
ironically. So a friend of mine was in the
(04:20):
process, like we were in the process of hanging out and they
were at the same time trying to text their like work friend back
about some like book recommendations because the
friend had asked for like a listof like four or five within a
particular genre. And so we're talking and they're
(04:41):
saying to me like, I can, oh man, I can only think of four
like this. And this is taking more time
because I can't think of a fifthone to recommend them.
And of course, like, in all the brilliance of, you know, being a
third person to a situation, I was like, well, why is 4 not
good enough? Like, this isn't a homework
assignment. And they physically stopped and
(05:03):
like, looked up from the phone and we're like, you're
absolutely right, 4 is fine. Send done.
So now I need to take my own advice.
Yes. Exactly.
And you know, there was a time when you know, even in in work
(05:24):
situations, text messaging wasn't the norm right there.
It wasn't normal to be getting text messages from your boss
while also in a meeting while also trying to work in a
spreadsheet, right? Like that wasn't expected or or
part of the norm. So I think this also can apply
to work situations like is there, can you wait until the
(05:46):
end of a task to answer that ping or that Teams or that text
message or or whatever it is usually usually yes.
And even if that means training your boss a little bit, that,
oh, I want to make sure I'm doing quality work so I might
get back to you after I'm finished this task.
Yes, absolutely. I love the I I think so much.
(06:10):
And maybe it's also just becauselike I'm, I've been on a kitchen
nightmares kick like while whileI'm doing my my indoor bike.
But the like, the kind of communication, like in a
kitchen, like how much time lefton that salmon chef in 2
minutes? And it's, it's like that very,
(06:30):
very clear communication and like expectation.
And yeah, sometimes you do have to train your manager a little
bit. Because I, I remember, you know,
if I had responded to every individual teams message that
just said, hey, how derailing isthat?
(06:52):
We get nothing done. We.
Get nothing done. Yeah, because not everyone
necessarily thinks along those lines.
And so sometimes it's pretty radical to think of your time in
that way. But you might teach your Co
workers and or do some managing up in order to to get your work
done and not feel burned out at the end of the day.
(07:14):
Yep, I think of Darrell from theoffice when he was learning more
about time management skills andlike time, you know, hacking and
productivity and, and stuff likethat.
And he's, somebody comes into the break room.
It's like, oh, what you're reading.
He was like, it's this is awesome.
It's all about time hacking and like time batching, you know, do
(07:36):
the same type of tasks together so that you can like be more
productive and be more efficient.
Like I brush my teeth in the shower this morning which saved
me like 2 minutes which I just spent telling you about this,
damn it. So Speaking of time management,
(08:00):
we have a bit of an unusual episode for you today.
I had the pleasure of speaking to a friend and colleague, Marie
Nagaty, who kind of I, I know when actually through my former
church gig as a singer, I, you know, performed in churches and
(08:21):
it was such a great reminder that.
So this is a woman that I've known for years as an Alto and
as a flautist. And she approached me when she
found out it, we found out she found out about the podcast and
said, you know, I really want totell my story.
And I was like, that's great. I also knew her to be a yoga
instructor. So I was like, OK, this is
(08:42):
great. You know, do you have a business
you want to promote? And she said, no, I just want to
tell my story. And I have to say, Caitlin, I
was just floored by this by by Marie's story.
Again, I've known her for years.I had no idea.
And I really feel like folks canlearn a lot from her story and,
you know, about boundaries and saying no and about, you know,
(09:05):
when to walk away from somethingthat seems almost like be
careful what you wish for sometimes because you'll get the
thing you wish for and then you might find out it's it's not,
you know, it's not serving you after a certain amount of time.
Such a wonderful conversation. I think we both like got teary
at one point or another. It was it was really wonderful.
(09:25):
I will say the setting was so cool.
We recorded at Medfield State Hospital, so in Massachusetts
and probably throughout the country, but I'm not 100% sure.
You know, they had state hospital programs.
Did they have this in California?
Caitlin? State hospitals, yeah, yes.
OK, cool. So I guess it's a national
(09:47):
thing. I've never actually like paid
attention. So yeah.
So this was the the original version of like a mental health
hospital. And Medfield State is famous for
being part of the set of ShutterIsland.
So if you've seen Shutter Island, you've seen Medfield
State. So it's a beautiful day,
(10:10):
wonderful spot. Felt both it's it's it's very
scenic and very haunting the setting, especially if you know
the history of state hospitals. And it was a little windy, so we
have pretty good recording equipment, but you can
definitely hear some wind. And at one point you might even
hear that we get a visit from a very friendly dog that ended up
(10:33):
in my lap at one point. So it was.
It was a wonderful recording, anopportunity to hear Marie's
story. Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much for sharing this with us, Lindy, and
we definitely look forward to hearing Marie's story.
So without further ado, we take you to Medfield State Hospital
(10:57):
in Massachusetts. Enjoy.
Hello everyone. It's Lindy.
Welcome to the Burnout Break Room.
We're doing something a little unusual today.
I am sitting here with a very good friend of mine, Marie
Magadie. So today we're going to be
talking to Marie because a little bit outside of the
typical format of our podcast, just a conversation across a
(11:22):
picnic table over some coffee about what it is to be someone
who's experienced burnout, who has come out the other side and
who wants to share their story of recovery.
So I know Marie through my former church gig as a soprano
(11:45):
for a church choir. Marie, I know Marie is a lovely
Alto, a talented flautist and and a yoga instructor.
But Marie, I'd love for you to share a little bit about who you
are, what you've done. Where to begin?
Let's begin at the beginning. So I was born in this area, so I
(12:11):
have a lot of history walking these grounds, which is always
kind of nice to be back. I used to walk here with my dad
long time ago. I grew up one town away in
Millis. For those of you in
Massachusetts who know the area,I'm the oldest of four children.
And I think in the context of our conversation today, I think
that's important to mention because I think as the oldest of
(12:33):
four children, I took on the role of caretaker at a very
young age of. Course, of course.
And as I look back over my journey, I realized how that
sort of impacted life decisions and the way I carried myself
through life. So growing up as a the oldest of
four siblings, you know, an Irish family where you're just
(12:57):
kind of expected to always toe the line and set the right
example, there was a lot of pressure on me to work hard, set
a good example, don't ask questions, put your head down.
Do it. You know, I know I'm not alone
in that. So that sort of formed the way I
lived my young life. Music has always been a
(13:18):
tremendous part of my life. And honestly, I think that it
was my savior. I was a music.
I picked up the glockenspiel when I was in 3rd grade and I
was all of three feet, some inches tall.
And after trying to carry it home from school for about 6
weeks, my band director said to me, you know, maybe you should
pick a different instrument. And that's how I ended up
(13:38):
playing the flute. But honestly, from that point
forward, I never looked back. So music has always played a
really important part in my lifeto help me find my social
circles, to help me sort of stepout of my own head into
something. You're as a musician, you know,
sometimes you can set everythingaside and be in the moment with
your music. As an adult, when I graduated
(14:01):
from high school, I moved on to College in Vermont.
I was a reformed Catholic at that point and ironically ended
up at a Catholic college, which was actually kind of nice
because it helped me really sortof understand all the things
that I didn't understand about the religion that I was raised
in. So I graduated college, moved
back home, and at the time you were expected to come home from
(14:26):
school and get a job, so I was working as a genetic research
scientist. I was a biology major in college
and I worked at Brandeis University, also here in
Massachusetts, studying fruit flies for about 18 months.
My dream was going back to to why I chose biology as a major.
I was convinced that I could find the cure for Down syndrome.
(14:48):
I had worked over the summers atthe Charles River Ark in Needham
with a variety of levels of adults and really found that
that spoke to me. And so that was my mission.
But it really it, it didn't quite end up that way.
But anyway, on to Brandeis studying fruit flies,
irradiating their brains to, to figure out which genes impact
(15:12):
the brains in the, in the fruit flies, which scientifically
there's some parallel to, to they can sort of extrapolate
from fruit flies to mice and then to to humans.
And about 18 months in, I just had this crushing feeling that I
was not in the right place. And so I came home and I said to
my dad, I don't know what to do.You know, I'm stuck.
(15:35):
I'm 22 years old. I want to move out.
I want to have a life, but I'm making $6000 a year in 1982.
So that wasn't feasible. So at the time, he suggested
that I sort of pivot and Long story short, I went to work for
a tech company that was founded by one of our neighbors in the
community where I I had grown up, a friend of my dad's.
(15:57):
They took me on, they took a risk on me.
I mean, I was a scientist, right?
And they put me behind a computer and my career just sort
of took off from there. So for the next 20 or so years,
I worked in the tech field and, you know, I just kind of rode
the wave. You know, I didn't really, I
wasn't making a lot of intentional decisions about what
(16:19):
I want to be. And maybe that was because I had
done that in my previous, you know, objectives and it didn't
work out, but I was having fun. I work for Lotus Development in
Cambridge. I was, you know, employee number
270. So I was on the ground floor.
I really got to see what it's like to work for a startup and
watch it grow so that, you know,I got a lot of really good
(16:41):
business experience. I moved into a role as a
telemarketer working for, you know, selling to schools.
And before I knew it, I ended upin Chicago.
And like you do, right as one does, 11 responds to their boss
when they say we need you in Chicago in two weeks, you say
yes because it seemed like an adventure.
(17:01):
So from there, I, I ended up moving into sales and account
management and spent the next 10years, 8 to 10 years moving from
Chicago and eventually landing in Atlanta where I spent almost
eight years. And during that time, I just was
telling my, my kids a story the other day because one of my, my
(17:24):
son's friends is having a similar experience.
I had been moved from our corporate headquarters in
Cambridge with the promise that I would be moved back because my
ultimate goal was to be back close to my family and close to
my friends and my roots. And I ended up in Atlanta, and
the people in Atlanta said we'renot moving back.
And so I had a decision to make.And it was one of the first
(17:47):
times that I realized that I really had to advocate for
myself. I couldn't just let things let
it flow. And so I quit my job and found
another job and then quit that job because it wasn't a good fit
and had a couple more experiences like that where I
just, I was trying things on andthey weren't fitting.
And to make matters even more complicated, because that's the
(18:11):
way I rolled, I bought a house in the middle of all this.
So there was no predictable, it's income flow, but there's a
mortgage, so there's pressure. And I remember waking up one day
and saying to myself, you know, 3 strikes, you're out.
Corporate America. Can't do this anymore.
So I took a step back and started thinking about the
things that I was really good at, which were people teaching.
(18:35):
I had always had a calling for teaching.
They're teaching Sunday school when?
I was living at home, I was ATA in College in biology labs and
teaching sort of came naturally to me and it was an affinity
that I couldn't ignore. And the tech thing was there
too. So I blended them together and
started a consulting company andfor the next 8 years that's what
(19:00):
I did. I my first client was home
people and I reworked an entire computing.
System. Which was was really quite
challenging and I look back and I think, wow, I did that.
But what's really interesting, you know, sort of trying to tie
it back to the whole burnout thing, was I didn't.
See those things? As great things, as huge
(19:23):
accomplishments, I just saw themas a matter of course and people
would say to me, do you realize what you're doing and what
you've built and how you're impacting these companies?
And. And I and I would look at them
and say no. And so I think there was a,
there was some messaging going on behind the scenes.
(19:43):
It was just sort of bringing me back to the just do it kind of
mentality. Yes.
So Fast forward a few more yearsand I came back to this area.
My dad was very sick in 2004 andI moved back because it was
important for me to be here for however much longer he had to
(20:03):
live and I. My sister was getting married.
There was a lot of family stuff going on.
And I never really had, I never really felt like I had a really
strong family network of support.
I was always sort of the black sheep.
I was the one who left. There was some dysfunction in my
family that once you get, once you put distance between that
(20:26):
and yourself, you can see it a little more clearly and coming
back. I, I had framed it completely
differently. And so there was, there was
sometimes when my family just, you know, they didn't understand
me. So I, I kind of felt like an
outlier. So I just decided I'll just kind
of live my life, start out of mybusiness again.
(20:48):
Loved living in the city. And that was.
Sort of the, that's the wrap on my sort of corporate business.
And then in 1995, I met my husband, and that was fortuitous
and we met. Through a mutual.
Friend at a party and I had convinced myself that I would
never be married, that I would never have children.
(21:10):
And then he came along and. Here we are.
Three kids later, yes, three kids, two dogs, 28 fish, 4 cats.
And we don't even. Live on a farm, which is the
ironic. To say, where's the white picket
fence, right? Exactly.
So our our courtship was fast and we met in 1995.
(21:32):
We were married in 1997 and I had my first baby three months
after our first three weeks after our first anniversary.
So it, and again, it was kind of, you know, not I remember
having a moment one day prior tomeeting my husband where I was
walking down the street in Post Office Square in Boston.
(21:53):
I could tell you even what I waswearing.
And I remember saying to myself,I want to get married and I want
to have kids. Like, I don't even know what
happened, but that was the switch.
And I think for so long I had been pushing it away because of
my experience with my family that I just kind of, I assumed
that I wasn't, that I wasn't cutout for it.
And then once I, once I put thatout to the universe, I really
(22:15):
believe that that is why Stuart and I found each other.
He was living, he's from Oklahoma.
I mean, what are the chances? Yeah, what are the chances?
So he and I had a mutual friend.I was working in one of those
corporate office suite type things where we had a shared
secretary. And this guy, Rob, and I became
lunch buddies. And he said to me one December,
(22:36):
he said, my wife and I are having a Christmas party, you
should come. And I was like, I'm over
socializing. I'm just going to hole up in my
apartment and get to the holidays.
And then I changed my mind and brought my friends, walked into
this party, looked down the hallway, and there was my
future, which was kind of cool. So at that point, we accelerated
our courtship, decided we were going to get married, had our
(22:58):
first child. And it was clear to me that I
couldn't do both my business andbe a mom.
So I sold my business. Thankfully, one of the women who
was working for me was at A at the other stage of her life
where her youngest was launchingand she was ready.
So that was an easy transition. But nobody prepared me for being
a mom. I didn't have a good role model
(23:21):
as a mom. And as a result, I didn't really
feel like I knew what I was doing.
I felt like I got thrown into the deep end of the pool.
And that was the first time where I really thought, I can't
breathe. I, I don't know what to do.
I mean, my old, my oldest son was a pretty easy baby.
(23:43):
He came out of the chute, slept through the night at six weeks
really chill. My daughter, not so much Sure.
And when I, when I had her, I, Isuffered from postpartum
depression and that sort of sentme deeper into this whole, I
can't fix it. I'm helpless, but I need to be
the caretaker. And I just felt like I lived
(24:04):
those years in a state of conflict.
And I, I say this a lot to my mykids and to my friends, Like the
body remembers all that stuff, like the trauma.
I, I know trauma gets, you know,I sometimes feel like the word
trauma is overused, but I do also feel that it's appropriate
to say that a lot of these things in my life were traumatic
(24:25):
without me even being harmed outwardly.
So by the time I became a mom, all of this stuff was inside,
but I couldn't press it down anymore, right.
And so that was when I started to realize, OK, I need to do
something about this. And I started therapy, which was
a lifesaver. And I, you know, and I and
(24:46):
thankful that my husband was very supportive and, you know,
my kids, I went on to have a third child and I assumed the
role of being a mom, but I couldn't let go of this other
part of my identity, of course, right.
And, and I think some people do that really well.
I'd like to think that I did it really well some of the time,
but I was always saying yes to other things.
(25:09):
And I remember by the time my son Owen was born, he he was the
only one that we hired sort of apart time caretaker for.
I was home completely with the other two kids.
But I had, at the time that he was born, I had committed to
help a friend of mine start a preschool because as one does
when you have three kids under the age of five, you can start a
preschool. And I think there was some level
(25:30):
of guilt associated with that because I really wish that I had
been able to stay home with Owenlike I did with the other two.
Yeah. So then the kids were born, we
got a couple of dogs. Life was, you know, chaotic, but
in the most beautiful way. My dad passed away sadly.
My sister got married and had her two children and life kind
(25:55):
of went on. And then as we moved forward, my
husband had a number of health issues.
He had a heart attack in 2010, totally unexpected.
And that sort of put me in the role of caretaker on steroids,
right, because I had to buffer my children.
I had to navigate the whole unknown of the situation with my
(26:18):
husband. And I will say, thankfully, the
silver lining of that heart Attack Attack in 2010, as they
found a heart defect that would have killed him if he had not
had the heart attack. So, you know, we revamped our
life. You know, I became the fixer.
I became the, you know, we're going to eat healthy meals.
We're going to, you know, we're going to keep structure in the
house, everything in its place. And the only person who wasn't
(26:38):
getting any attention or any support was me.
I didn't realize it at the time.This is all retrospective, as I
think it probably is for a lot of people.
So we move forward. He recovered from his heart
attack. Life is busy.
We've got three kids playing sports and music, and I was.
I was happy. You know, I was, I was
fulfilled. I I thought, you know, what if I
(27:01):
had to decide, had to define how, what kind of a mom I wanted
to be, I kind of feel like this would be it.
So that was my identity. And then my oldest graduated
from high school and he went offto college.
And I started to see the next phase of things where everybody
had told me they're going to peel off and they're going to
start getting their own lives. And that happened one year.
(27:23):
And then two. Years later my daughter and then
three years later my son. And around the time but before
he he when he graduated from middle school and he went out to
high school. I've been given some thought at
the advice of some friends to what do I want to do next?
And at that time I had been doing yoga for since 2003 when
Owen was born. And I had done some
(27:45):
certifications and kids yoga andsome mindfulness certifications
and things like that. And I thought, well, aha, going
kind of in the same vein that I did when I started my computer
consulting business, what do I like?
What am I good at? What fits in my life?
And it was yoga and meditation. So I approached the school where
he was working, where he was going, he was going to graduate.
And I said, I know he's leaving.He's my last one.
(28:06):
All three of my kids had finished 8th grade at the
school. I don't want to leave.
Is there a place for me? And they've got a place for me.
And so for the next 8 years, I built a program around student
and school Wellness starting from nothing.
And it was really kind of like blank slate.
What would you do? We started with kindergarten
(28:27):
yoga, and it sort of mushroomed from there.
And my head was down. It's just doing it.
Common theme, right? Just get through the day, do it.
And I was enjoying it until one day I looked up and I was
teaching 15 classes a week and Iwas coming home from work and my
(28:47):
husband was looking at. Me and he was like, something's
not right. You're coming home and you're
sleeping for two hours. You're getting up, you're
cooking dinner, and you're goingback to bed.
And in the midst of all that, asyou know, COVID, right, so and
COVID affected schools as significantly as any other
population, I think. And as the Wellness teacher, the
(29:08):
expectation was that I was goingto bring this calm and this
Wellness and well-being to the community.
And I didn't have, I was freakedout.
I mean, I would go to the grocery store and sit in the
parking lot and cry for 20 minutes.
And I just started to have a little bit of imposter syndrome
because I, I kept thinking to myself, I if, if the Wellness
(29:29):
teacher isn't well, how can she bring that to her students?
And that began the beginning of my realization that I had I had
exceeded my capacity, right? And I remember driving to work
one day and saying to myself, where's the joy?
I've lost my joy. And that was such a pivotal
(29:50):
moment, Lindy, because I realized at that point that
everything that my husband had been.
Saying And you know when somebody says something to me?
It would be nice for me to take it under a, you know, in a, in a
constructive way, But a lot of times the Irish in me gets her
back up and says I can prove youwrong, right.
And so I worked harder because if you work harder, of course
(30:11):
things are going to get easier. But the reverse happened.
So 2 1/2 years ago, I, my husband had an had open heart
surgery and at that point I tooksome time off from work.
I just said to my, my, you know,my boss, I, I can't do both.
And my priority has to be here. And I'll tell you it was about 5
(30:34):
1/2 weeks that I took off. And then those 5 1/2 weeks,
everything shifted. My priorities shifted.
I had that distance that I described before of being far
enough away where I could see that I was doing more damage to
me and I was being less effective as a practitioner to
my students. And I went back to to work after
(30:57):
the March break that the school had.
And I gave my notice and I just said, you know, it might.
And it came as a complete surprise to everybody because
I'm really good at covering things up, you know, put on the
happy face, you know, and it. And I think that, you know, for
me, the happy face in the mirrorsometimes frames my mental
(31:18):
attitude. But there's only so much of that
that you can do. So my intention was when I gave
my notice was to take a year because I realized that at that
point I was 62. I'll be 65 in November and I was
62 and 62 years of this wasn't going to unwind itself in a
(31:42):
month, right? Maybe not even a year.
But I felt like if I could startwith a year and if I could get
through a year, I'd see where I went from there.
And so I just went to ground. I, I just said, you know what?
I'm not going to do anything that has anything to do with
what I've been doing except for meditating because that was kind
of my daily. That was the way.
That was what grounded. Me.
(32:02):
And it was a struggle, you know,peeling myself back from that,
you know, work ethic, if you will.
You know, the, the the feeling that I've always got to be doing
something. And I think in some ways that
always doing something was a coping mechanism because I could
ignore all the other stuff if I was just powering through.
(32:22):
Yeah, Right. Oh, yeah.
So that was a real struggle. And I had to actually make a
contract with myself. I had to write it down and just
say, you know, these are the things that you say to yourself
when you're feeling this. And this is these are some of
the things you can do when you're feeling this.
And so I started walking. I started taking much better
(32:44):
care of my own self sleeping. I had had some medical issues.
I believe they were all exacerbated by the stress of
everything that was going on. So I gave myself permission to
take care of me. And I found some great doctors
and I found a great therapist. And I had a great, as I say, a
(33:04):
great support from my husband. He was just like, I just want
you back, right? I just want you to be happy.
And if that means that you don'tever work again, that's OK.
And we're in a fortunate position to be able to do that.
I will say I will acknowledge that and after about a year I
could start to feel the creep. I mean, I enjoyed the year.
You know, I reconnected with friends that I hadn't seen and
(33:26):
read way more books than I have ever read as an adult, which was
reading is my thing, Re immerse myself in my music, which has
been just so great because that is also, as I think I mentioned
my, my social connection. Yes, my 2 musical groups that I
play in right now, they are my people.
And so that that is something that I, I am hopeful will not go
(33:47):
away ever. But about a year in, I was
starting to get that little tingle in the back of my head
like what's next? What are you going to do?
Our youngest son was at that point had just finished his
freshman year in college and he was, he was launched and he felt
like if he survived his freshmanyear, then I could say, OK, he's
going to be all right. So I remember very, very
(34:10):
clearly, we were down at the beach.
We spend a week in Rhode Island every year.
And it was a rainy day. And I said to my husband, I'm
just going to walk to the beach and listen to the waves and
maybe I'll find some seashells or some starfish or whatever.
And I climbed up into the the lifeguard chair and I was
looking out over the over the water.
And this voice said to me, this is what you need to do.
(34:31):
And out of my mouth without any prompting said, I need to start
teaching adult yoga again. And that's when I knew I was
ready. That's when I knew that I had
taken enough time for me. I'd hit the reset button, maybe
not all the way, but enough to where I felt like I was grounded
again. And I was sleeping.
I was, you know, my relationships were all in a good
(34:53):
place. I, I had put myself at the top
of the list, which I think was the very first time in my life
that I had done that. And so now, you know, here we
are 2025. And I'm kind of, you know, I, I
go back and forth with should I be doing more?
Should I not be doing more? But you know, I feel like we're,
I'm in a different phase of lifenow.
(35:14):
My oldest son is engaged. He'll be married next year.
And we love her and her family. My daughter will be right after
them. I think she's just waiting for
her brother to get married. My youngest son is graduated
from college and he's embarking on a year long adventure in
Europe in September because why not?
And I really feel like. Those are the.
(35:35):
Things that I can celebrate now because Stuart and I talk about
this all the time, like we did this, right?
But when you're in it, you're, you're not necessarily thinking
about that. So I guess in summary, what does
my life look like now? Like I've come through this
journey of recognizing the problems, acknowledging the
(35:58):
feelings, living through. The pain.
Dealing with the medical issues and now paper, yes.
You know, I feel like my life isnot always roses.
There are always things that bubble up.
But that's life, right? But I feel much more in control
of the things that I'm saying yes and no to yes.
(36:20):
And that to me, if I can model that for my kids, I feel like
that, you know, if I can do it for myself and then model it for
my kids, I think that's super important.
The other thing that has been a struggle?
For me in the last. Few years is this whole idea of
getting older. It happens, right?
I mean, for a long time I said, oh, it's just a number.
(36:42):
My husband and I are six months apart in age.
So this spring he went through the transition to Medicare.
And we were having dinner with acouple of friends and they were
saying, you just wait until it'syour turn.
Something changes is inside you.And there's the Irish, right?
And he's saying, Oh, no, it's not going to change for me.
But rather than looking at it as, Oh my gosh, I'm getting
(37:02):
older, I'm going to be 65 and I'm going to be on Medicare.
I'm really, really being intentional about saying I am
moving into the next phase of mylife.
And I have so much to the forge.And that really is keeping me,
you know, in the days when I getup and I'm like, we all are.
I think, you know what, I've gotso much to be thankful for.
And I have the time now to notice it.
(37:24):
Whereas. Before.
I didn't. And the the other silver lining
of having an empty house is thatnow my husband and I get to sort
of revert back to where we were,you know, 20.
We've been married for 26 years.26, it'll be 28.
Don't tell him, don't tell him. I messed that up.
I always think of my son's age and I add 1.
(37:46):
So it'll be 28 in 28 years next year.
So 27 this this June and for a long time we just we didn't even
divide and conquer. We were zone defense with three
kids, right? So one was going one way, the
other was going the other. He was running a thankfully a
really successful business. So we kind of were living
parallel lives a lot. And by the end of the day, there
(38:09):
was nothing left for. Each other.
And we've had some really great conversations around how
important it is now that we havethat time to make that time.
And so I'm grateful for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wow. I mean, thank you so much.
What I'm enjoying about this conversation, first of all, is
your openness and vulnerability.But also, I've known you for
(38:32):
eight years now. So I'm thinking back to the
timeline and, and remembering like, you know, conversations
we've had and the timing of those conversations and how I
feel like around the time when some of the, the deeper work was
happening. I, I remember just like we would
just, I'd be lining up in the back of the church, you know, in
(38:54):
my choir robe and you and I would connect and.
It would be a really deep. Connection, yes, very suddenly
and for two minutes. And then I'd go off and sing to
him, you know, And then, but also just when you talked about
it, I was so struck when you talked about the smile, like
putting that smile, staring in the mirror, putting the smile on
your face. Because the other thing I've
(39:15):
always known about you, in short, was the smile, right?
Like my vantage points from where I've always.
Been sitting is I can look and see everyone's faces.
Right. And it and just stare at them
for as you know, no one notices that that's what I'm doing.
I'm always a therapist. I'm I'm paying attention.
You are right and. You.
(39:37):
Always had this. I mean, it's funny because you
always had this kind of serenityvibe, right?
And, and now I'm hearing that you were also very much
struggling at times and very much.
And, and, you know, I also recognize that in certain
communities, it's not always thething to do, to like come in and
(40:00):
be like, listen, people, I'm struggling to yeah, right.
But, you know, some communities I think are a little bit more
about, you know, putting on yourSunday best literally and and
figuratively and, and showing upin whatever way feels OK in that
space. But.
Some of the things that I, I, I was taking notes and some of the
(40:20):
things that really jumped out ofme, I'm just going to name them,
OK? The first thing was when you
said you were talking about early on in your career and I
decided to advocate for myself like it was the first time in
your life. The other thing that jumped out
of me was, you know, it's funny where we, this these parallel
(40:41):
lives. I used to work at Home Depot.
I'm sure I used your computer system.
It was actually really impressive, like it really was.
My dad actually used to to to train people on it.
And no kidding. Yes, Yeah, yeah, that was.
How small a world is that such? A small world and it was a very
impressive and intuitive system.I should have known a woman
designed it. Of course, of course it was very
(41:01):
intuitive. So, you know, you've touched so
many lives without even knowing it, and to hear that you never
recognize your accomplishments blows my mind.
Blows my mind. And I'm not at all surprised.
Not at all surprised. And then when you when you
(41:22):
mentioned you started saying yes, I also, my question is if
we can come back to this, were you also saying no, like when
you started? Yeah.
So like it seems as if you started saying yes to yourself
and to your needs, but I'm curious to know if that required
(41:46):
saying no to other things that maybe you would not have felt
comfortable saying no to, to make room for the yes for
yourself. I suspect yes, I can't think of
a particular example, but I I always come back to this
conversation that I had with thehead of school and my kids
middle school, which is when youadd something somewhere, you
(42:07):
have to take something away fromsomeplace else, right Regard
whether it's a subject or sayingyes versus no.
So I imagine that it's it was probably timed with, you know,
the eye opening ability to advocate for myself to recognize
my personal limits. So I believe, I also believe
that at that point I started prioritizing.
(42:31):
And what are the things that either are necessary?
Because at that point I was still very much a mom and a
homemaker, But also what are thethings that if you know, beyond
being necessary, is this what ishow is this going to serve me
right? And that whole concept of being
selfish is one that I was never,I was never taught as a child.
(42:55):
I I mean myself worth was always.
From a young age. Based on everyone else, on what
I did for other people, on how Imade other people look.
And so for me, that was a revelation.
And it was hard. I mean, it really it was one of
those things where, you know, I would have internal, internal
(43:16):
battles about am I being too selfish?
If I want, if I want to do this,you know, it was a function of
deciding how much of myself I was prepared to give to other
people, not with not realizing that I was giving pretty close
to 100% of myself to my family already.
So there wasn't a lot of buffer,there wasn't a lot of stuff
(43:39):
left. And that is when I started
getting back into my music aftermy after my youngest son was
born. That's when my husband
encouraged me to start finding time for me.
That's when yoga entered my life.
And I had been doing yoga on andoff, you know, over the years
since college. But that's when yoga took a
front seat for me in terms of survival.
(44:00):
I mean, I can't even tell you a 5 minute power nap in Shavasana
is like was like the gift of theday every Saturday morning and
my music and being able to get these things around the
responsibilities that I had yes and then be able to say, you
know, that's not going to work for me, you know, can you host
Thanksgiving dinner this year? I'm sorry, I can't, I just don't
(44:22):
have the bandwidth. Yes.
So there's the no, there's the no, yes, and.
Couple of things are coming to mind for me.
I so appreciate that you named caregiver early on and recognize
that that's how you were socialized, raised to be the,
you know, the position you were in your family and maybe a
(44:44):
little bit and, and you can tellme, you know, if that also feels
like part of your identity, genuinely like, you know, I'm
wondering if part of this journey has been sifting through
what am I told I was supposed tobe and what do I actually feel
that I am? And that can always be a
challenging journey. So the, the burnout book, which
(45:05):
we mentioned on the podcast often by the Nagoski twins, they
talk about caregiver syndrome. So the the 1st chapter of the
book is about burnout and recovery.
So done right, solved. And then the next, the whole
part of the book is all of the ways in which our society
contributes to burnout. And they talk about care,
caregiver syndrome as there are just certain pockets of our
(45:28):
society that are told that they have to be caregivers.
Their role is to care and to give, give, give, give, give,
give or no, Sorry, it's it's giver syndrome.
I'm sorry, it's giver syndrome, but it's in general very aligned
with caregivers. Yeah, giver syndrome.
And and so the nature is my roleis to give, not to take, never
(45:50):
to take. The alternative that that we've
discovered thanks to, you know, great colleagues and and couples
counselors is provider syndrome.So it doesn't just affect women,
the society effects all of us, right.
So if Stuart were here, maybe he'd have some thoughts on that.
You were also a provider, though, in your family.
(46:13):
So when I talk to people, often women, about boundaries, the the
initial conversation is always like, yeah, that sounds great.
This is awesome. I'm fully on board.
And then they come back to the next week, be like, I set a
(46:34):
boundary. It's terrible.
I never want to do it again because of like the guilt and
followed by the shame of who am I?
Who am I to say no, right? So I'm curious to know for you,
Marie, like walk me through whatI'm assuming with some guilt and
maybe even some shame through the process of starting to be,
(46:55):
to say yes to yourself, to say no to others, maybe identify
less as a caregiver or in a different way.
Yeah, so the, the example that comes to mind is related to my
immediate family, my birth family, which has always been,
it's been a very big struggle. I had two brothers and a sister,
(47:17):
and I am very close with one brother and his family and
really don't talk to the other brother.
And my sister and I have had a fraught relationship for a
really long time. And this particular example is
related to prioritizing me around the holidays.
(47:39):
So my birthday is at Thanksgiving every year.
Every year for Thanksgiving, we all get together as a family.
We, you know, celebrate the holiday and we at some point
somebody sings happy birthday and maybe there's a cake.
And maybe there's. Presents and and as I was
growing up, it was fun because Icame from a really big Italian
family on my mother's side and arelatively small family on my
(48:03):
dad's Irish side. But always, you know, it was
always an excuse to get everybody together.
But as we got older and our lives started to take on more of
the individuality as as they do when you are adults, it just
just became a struggle. It was really, really hard.
And, you know, it started to feel very contrived.
(48:24):
And while my mother was still alive, I respected that.
You know, it was more for her than it was about any of us.
There came a day at Thanksgivingwhen I was at my family's house,
and we left and we were on our way home.
And I turned to my husband. And I said, I'm never doing that
again. I'm never doing that to myself
and I'm never doing that to our kids and to you.
(48:46):
So the following year comes around and the expectation is
that we're going to do Thanksgiving.
And I, I said to my husband, we have to have a conversation with
kids. And I was terrified to have this
conversation with my own children about my needs because
I felt like it would make me look selfish and weak.
And we sat them down at the dinner table and we said, how
would you guys feel about changing up our routine at
(49:08):
Thanksgiving this year? Just to see, you know, it's
mom's birthday is on Thanksgiving.
Day she really wants to do X. How would you guys feel and they
to a child, my oldest at the time was maybe 12, which would
have made my daughter 10 and my younger son 8 1/2 or 9.
They looked at me and they said,it's about time, mom.
(49:31):
Like out of the mouths of bees, right?
So I just looked at my husband and I looked at them and I
started to cry. And I was just like, why didn't
you guys tell me? And they said, because we
thought you were OK with it. There's the smile.
I was saying yes. So we agreed that we would say
(49:51):
no. And then I had to present that
to my mom and my sister. And that was really, really
hard. And so I made a way too big a
production of it. We went out of town, we went
away for the weekend. We went to my brother's, my, you
know, my brother up in New Hampshire and we had a great,
great holiday. But I had I had it was a period
(50:12):
of years before I could really let go because my, my sister
wouldn't let it go. She kept calling me every year
saying we need to do this. We.
Need to get. Together for the holiday.
And I was like, actually, we have other plans.
And then the plans came, became we're running away out of town
just to put distance between us 2.
We've identified 2 families who are family less.
(50:35):
And so they became our family because you can pick your
friends, you can't pick your family.
And so it's, it's become this beautiful community.
And I, I just said to my husbandlast Thanksgiving.
Like where would we be if? We had never made that decision.
We'd still be. Toeing the line.
(50:58):
And that, but the struggle was real, like the, the, the, the
guilt of every year for my wholelife.
I mean, even when I lived in Chicago and Atlanta, I was
expected to be home for the holidays, even if I had to sort
of, you know, rework my work schedule or come up with an
excuse to have a meeting here inBoston so I could get the
company to pay for my trip. So letting go of that was really
(51:23):
was was hard, but it's probably 1 of it.
It it's one of the best things that that I did at the beginning
of this whole process. But it's also allowed me to have
very honest conversations with my kids about the things that,
you know, if, if your gut is telling you it isn't right, it
probably isn't right kind of thing.
(51:43):
Listen to your gut and it's OK to say no.
And I, and I'd like to think that I have begun to model that
for them. And I, I did it at an age where
maybe they were still impressionable enough to
understand. And my daughter is still my, of
my 3 kids, my daughter is the one who still has that latent
guilt. Like she can't make something.
(52:06):
She'll say, Are you sure you're OK with it?
And I'm, and I'm just like, you know what?
This is your life jacket. You're like, you're 26 years
old. And you have a busy life and I,
I will make demands on you. But I am OK if you say, jeez,
mom, you know, I just can't. You know, I either I, I have too
much work going on or she's in the fitness field.
(52:27):
And she tends to be like me, puts her heads down and says
yes, says yes to a lot and then wakes up one day and doesn't
realize why she's sick. Oh yeah.
Right of. Course, so if you need a day and
you just need to turn your phoneoff and just hang in the
apartment and watch movies or sleep, that's what you need to
do. So I I'm hoping that you know
(52:47):
it. It took me a long, long time and
I would this happened when I was.
In my mid to late 50s and. She's half my age so.
But isn't it lovely that your children, especially Jackie, has
this model of a woman, you know,a badass woman who's done all
(53:10):
the things, all of the things, right, who knows how to say no
and who who can? Model.
This this term is way overused, but I I've yet to come up with a
better one. self-care, right? And you live it like you're
living it maybe for the first time I'm hearing like truly,
(53:30):
you're starting to truly embody that.
And I'm wondering, Marie, what if, if you are having a
conversation with yourself at Jackie's age, what would you
tell you? In retrospect, yes, given like.
You the one who is having this amazing tech career at that
point, Yeah, Well, on your way to yeah.
(53:52):
What would you tell yourself? I think I would start with slow
down. Just the whole concept of being
present really didn't come to meuntil I started down the path of
yoga. But be present, you know, don't
always be thinking of the next best thing, you know, or the
(54:14):
next thing, whether it's best ornot, that is going to keep you
occupied. I think I would also say, say to
myself, listen to your gut. I preach it, but I didn't live
it back then. I do now.
But you know that your gut instinct is called that for a
reason, right? It, it definitely in, I feel
(54:36):
anyway that it, it, it has guided me in many, many
situations. But it's easy to tamp it down.
It's easy to just say, not rightnow, you know, or, or but what
about this? So I think I would say to her,
if it doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't right for you.
Whether it's right for somebody else or not.
I think I would tell her to say something positive to herself
(54:59):
everyday. Yeah.
Just. And she's really, she, she's
pretty amazing. I'd like to think all my kids
are amazing. But she, she has had a journey
and she has come out on the other side of her own personal
journey with such grace. And I cry every time I talk
about her, you know, And she, she journals every day.
(55:22):
She's true. I cannot journal.
I will tell you right now, I tried to journal when my kids
were born just so that I could record the special moments and I
got to like 3 months and that was it.
But so she journals everyday. She's always open to, you know,
positive affirmations. She tells herself every morning,
(55:44):
you know, something good about herself and something good that
she has to look forward to. I mean, she's really, she's very
grounded in that way. And I, I look at her and I'm
like, gosh, I wish I could be, could have been like you, but I,
I'd like, I'd like to think thatI had a part.
In that, well, I was going to say that's, that's you, right,
(56:04):
Like that's your influence. I'm sure the the the woman that
she knew as mom like that, that groundedness, that checking in
with yourself, like since I've known you, that's who you've
been. And it sounds like it's just
grown and and blossomed. But you've you've always had the
conversations that we've had were never surface.
Right. Even if they were briefs like
(56:26):
you, you found ways to know yourself.
And yes, did a part of me die inside as a therapist when I
hear people say they don't hear an old course every?
Time, right, So sorry. Just kidding, but you know every
You have found a way to know yourself.
Yeah, it doesn't just have to bejournaling.
And that's what you've modeled. For Jackie, yeah, yeah.
(56:49):
And I'm, I'm happy that I could do that for her because I think
it's serving her well. Yeah.
So yeah, I think those those arethe things that I would have
told my 26 ish year old self. Yeah.
And just be proud of. Who you are and like, don't let
anybody take that away from you.Don't let anybody tell you you
should be anything other than who you are.
You know, body image has always been an issue in my family and
(57:15):
I. We were just joking not too long
ago. About this when she was little
there was a store called Justice.
Do you remember Justice the store?
Her body was just not designed to wear clothes from Justice and
it was tormenting her because all of her friends could go and.
Just pick anything off the rack,she said to me not too long ago,
she said I just. Really want to.
Thank you for guiding me out of that store, leading me out of
(57:37):
that store and taking the placeswhere I can provide the place.
And I felt like A and I was like, yeah, I did that.
Yes, yeah, I did that. I had forgotten about it, but.
But yeah, I think that that is such a big thing, particularly
with women, you know, and I, andI'll be honest, I, I have
struggled with that my whole life.
Sure isn't the messaging that you know, I got when I was
(58:00):
little, but I think. That as I've gotten older, one
of the other. Things that this time away from
the working part of my life has allowed me to do is really kind
of say. Look around, you know, there are
all sorts of shapes and sizes ofpeople and they're all doing the
best that they can. Yes, and the stuff if if people
(58:22):
are going to make a judgement about you, about the way you
look, then you don't need them in your life.
Exactly right. Exactly.
So, yeah, exactly. Yes.
So did that answer your question?
Yes. Beautiful beautifully said One
of the things that you said too that's that's you know in
noticing who you are and who youare, that requires recognizing
(58:47):
first of all, knowing yourself. You talked about like, you know,
not recognizing the accomplishments that they were
happening. And I do think when you're
socialized or raised to give or to fix or to be there for others
in whatever way, it's so easy tomiss, you know, who we are.
(59:11):
Who am I bringing to this table?Not what am I giving to the
table, but who am I? Who am I at this table?
And but the, the, the world shifts.
I, I love how you talked about in the last year, how you world
like shifted because that you have to look to an entirely
different lens when you're considering yourself at the
(59:34):
table. And, and it does require this
protectiveness. And once we understand their
identity open, please start protecting.
It and and valuing. It and there's and there's when
you recognize that there's worthin that.
I've had conversations with several colleagues since I left
(59:56):
my my most recent teaching job. Who have also.
Left and one of them was very honest with me.
She she, she said, you know, I was really surprised when you
decided to leave because you're so young.
Well, first of all, I think people don't realize how old I
really am. I can thank my mom for that
(01:00:16):
because I got her jeans. When I tell people that I'm
going to be 65, they kind of look at me and go you sure you.
Sure, check that calendar. So there was the age factor, but
also I think they they saw what most people saw it's.
OK, that's fine. We're we're happy couple
friends. Oh, hi.
(01:00:37):
No, there's no food. Is she a?
Doodle. Yes.
Yeah, she's very cute. But she's in her happy place.
Have a nice walk. I think that, you know, they saw
what everyone saw, which was that she comes into work every
day and she puts on the mindfulness teacher had and she
(01:00:58):
does the class and then she saves it for when she gets home.
Yes. And then she collapses.
And to not have to do that anymore, it's so free.
Yeah. I mean, it's just yeah, it's
just to show up how I however I am.
And I mean, there are days when I'm not great.
Yeah, not every day is perfect, but.
(01:01:21):
You know, to just show up and tonot feel, you know, we were, we
were having dinner last night, my husband, my younger son and I
and to just be able to just be there 100% of.
What's happening and not feel like, oh, I've got to go do the
laundry or I've got to get my lesson plans ready for tomorrow.
To just be able to to have enough.
(01:01:41):
I don't even know what the word is.
But to be able to say no to all of that stuff because this is
where I want to in this moment. And to have the freedom, I
guess, to make that choice. Whereas before, I don't think I
felt like I had that scene. I felt like the bus was being
driven for me. That's literally the school bus.
Yeah. So that's.
Well, that feels like a drop themic moment.
(01:02:04):
I feel like you summarized beautifully, like your life like
in that sentence, right, like where, how far you come and to
be able to now show up to spaces100% my goodness, that's the
dream. It is.
That's the dream, right? Like to be able to do that,
(01:02:25):
especially at a time when you you have the vitality to be able
to enjoy it and people in your life, you know, to where you're,
when you were at your 100%, you're surrounded by love and
community and you have you have health in a body that works.
(01:02:45):
And, and like what a what an amazing yeah.
And Speaking of gifts, thank youso much.
Oh, it's my pleasure. This is I love enjoyed it.
I hope. What?
I've said is cohesive enough to make some sense.
Well, I've learned some things, so I'm very grateful for that.
(01:03:06):
So thank you, Marie. And I look forward to our
conversation. Indeed, indeed.
Thank you, Lindy. So again, Caitlin, like I said,
it was such an amazing experience hearing Marie's story
and I hope everyone gained a little bit from it.
I know I did. And Caitlin, while you are not
(01:03:28):
in the burnout break room, wherecan we find you?
So you can find me at caitlintrujela.com, so first and
last name, and you can find me at on all the socials, Tiktok,
Instagram, primarily for anybodythat's looking for author
support or general creative support.
(01:03:48):
I do ideation sessions and creative coaching.
And Lindy, when you are not in the burnout break room, where
can people find you? So best place to find me is my
website lindylarimore.com. I'm also on all the socials at
my website. You can find out more about the
(01:04:09):
coaching and consulting work that I do.
I work with clinics and small businesses, some nonprofits, in
improving their leadership and creating spaces that prevent
burnout and promote thriving work groups.
So yes, thank you so much, Caitlin.
It has been such a pleasure. Thank you, Lindy, and we will
(01:04:33):
see you next time in the break room.
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