August 18, 2025 • 43 mins
💖 Feel like the dating pool and your job search are giving you deja vu? This week Caitlan and Lyndie are looking at the similarities between bad dates and bad bosses. Let's break up with the dysfunction, because "no" is a complete sentence.
Welcome back to the Burnout Break Room! The podcast that's like a break room, but helpful. Join us every Monday to escape the hustle spiral. Think of it as a break room—if your coworkers actually talked about real solutions instead of just complaining about meetings that could have been emails. We’re diving into burnout with a realistic lens, spilling the tea on how to reclaim your energy, and finding creative ways to step off the hamster wheel (without burning everything down… probably). Grab your coffee, take a breath, and let’s break the cycle together!
📗 Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book and on a hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at https://caitlantrewhella.com/
📙 Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach and licensed Therapist, and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
Connect with me at https://lyndielaramore.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to date.
Ways to date. We are going to do that today.
Right, just in a, in a differentway.
(00:26):
But we're looking at ways to take a break from the grind and
spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujilla, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larmour, licensed
therapist and certified career coach.
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. How you doing Lindy?
(00:48):
Good. I'm ready for some general
mischief today. What about you?
Absolutely feeling the more moreof the rebellious vibes and you
know, definitely spilling some more of the piping hot tea.
It'll be piping today for sure. Yeah, we're doing another short
(01:12):
that's a little fun, a little bit mischievous.
Yes. So today we're looking at how,
let's see, how would we describethis.
The dating pool and the job market pool are not too
dissimilar from each other nowadays in the difficulties in,
(01:33):
first of all, having somebody get back to you or even just
trying to have a normal conversation and sticking to the
subject. So today is your opportunity to
say it's not me, it's the job. I feel like I feel like a lot of
(01:54):
people are going to relate to this one today.
If you've ever been on a date and if you've ever had a job,
you've probably experienced at least one of these things.
Yeah. So for those of you who've done
both, you might see some, you might see some crossover like
where we've we've seen. So maybe you'll relate.
Please let us know. Yes.
We would love to hear your stories as well because where
(02:17):
there are bad dates, there are also bad jobs.
Also just for the record, I do want to say out loud I don't
recommend doing both in the sameplace.
Just you know, save your jading for outside the job.
Just maybe, I don't know is is that being boring?
(02:39):
This is definitely a good recommendation and and honestly,
I would argue vice versa as wellbecause and of course I talk
about this so much in terms of creativity coaching, we are all
so much more than our jobs. So when you go to meet somebody
for the first time, be it on a date or for another reason,
networking, what have you meeting, meeting your in laws,
(03:00):
maybe you don't have to make your introductions all about
your job because who you are as a person extends so much farther
than that. So just Please remember that we
want to know more about you, notjust how you get a paycheck.
Absolutely. Well said Caitlin.
And we are the burnout break room.
(03:22):
If you are only your job, check yourself right like you are
heading straight into burnout ifyou're not there already.
If you're only your job, get some hobbies, do some traveling,
meet some people, have a life outside of your job.
This has been my my Ted talk. Definitely.
(03:48):
So shall we get into it? I think so.
Do you want to go first? Sure.
So I feel like the the most common like bad dating
experience I have personally is the person who shows up and is
just pretending that everything's fine.
Meanwhile they can't stop talking about their ex and
(04:10):
they're basically like unloadingall of this emotional baggage.
And I've seen this in my work experience as well.
So personally, one story I have in in the workplace is a manager
who it didn't matter how far in advance I would give a heads up
(04:34):
about something down the line becoming a problem, or even just
the potential risk of something being a problem.
What it came down to was my manager being perfectly fine,
absolutely fine and dandy, willing to sign off on all of
this, having cash out in the open in the office.
(04:57):
Mm hmm. Not under lock and key.
It was incredibly uncomfortable,but just that that same approach
of yeah, this this is totally fine you know it's it's not a
problem whatsoever This doesn't implicate everyone and there's
there's no risk involved so it'syeah, you do you just have to be
(05:20):
fine with it. We're.
All good with this, right? Oof.
Oof, that's an interesting choice.
So Caitlin, I don't know about you.
I don't know if you've ever beencatfished on a date before.
I can't say that I ever have officially, but there's
definitely been times when you know, the, the picture doesn't
(05:42):
quite match the, the live experience.
We'll, we'll put it that way, right?
Like listen, we all have filterson our phones.
I am a 43 year old woman. I use filters, right?
Like this is a thing that happens.
I have progressed beyond the stage where like my skin is just
(06:02):
great the way it is. That's fine, right?
That's allowed. But when it's like this was
clearly 5 to 10 years ago, definitely or or another one
where it's like you like you were doing something really fun
in this picture. Like you seem like a really fun
person and like you, you do all the things and then you find out
(06:23):
like that was like the two timesin their life that they traveled
and the one time they went dancing or something.
You know, like it's not. At all who they?
Are right on. Somebody else's dime because it
was like a group trip or something like that.
The one wedding they got invitedto, Right?
Yeah. So you're like, oh, you seem
fun. And then it's then it's like,
(06:44):
oh, we're yeah, we would never go anywhere, would we?
One of my most favorite catfishing stories was when I
helped to open a partial program.
And so I was there on the first day, right?
You know, we were, we were all kind of starting together and it
was really exciting. It was a lot of fun.
(07:04):
Startups are fun. But the CEO at the time would
part of opening a place is you do a lot of tours and you
introduce to a lot of the fancy people you know, in the state
and in the industry constantly coming by.
And he was well known for bringing people on tours and at
(07:30):
some point dropping into the conversation how we're going to
be doing equestrian therapy. And this is, this was like a
hospital on not a lot of land, right?
Like it was in, it was actually in an industrial park.
So he just kept saying, like, yeah.
And then we're going to have horses over here.
(07:52):
And, you know, people be like, oh, wow.
Like, that's really wonderful that you're going to be doing
equestrian therapy. And yeah, to this day, there are
no horses that I know of. He is no longer there.
But yeah, I talk about catfishing because of course,
when you took the job, you're like, wow, like that.
We will be at the cutting edge, edge of treatment and we get to
hang out with horses somehow in this the middle of this
(08:15):
industrial park there, they'll be there.
So that that comes to mind when I think of, you know, the
picture on the dating profile ofthem riding a horse, right?
Yeah, that was that was my my catfishing experience at work.
(08:35):
Yeah, wow, Yeah. Talk, my gosh, talk about a bait
and switch. I'm, I'm going to add to that
and say that the biggest catfishthat I've experienced first,
like first of all on a date is regarding it, not appearances,
but I would say ethical stance because how do I put this
(08:58):
gently? So as the conversation started
to go on with the person that I was talking to on a, on a dating
app, they started to get really excited and started talking
about, you know, it's so great to to meet a, a pure woman of
(09:20):
I'll, I'll say they use the wordAryan background.
Yeah. Mm hmm.
I'm falling off my chair. Oh gross.
Well, at least they at least youknew what was coming like right
away. Right, right.
And honestly, in this case, the only thing more disgusting than
(09:42):
discovering not only that, I wasperceived that way because for
the entire world. Please know that I am not
aligned with this mentality or belief system whatsoever.
We can underline that 10 times. So gross.
So. Gross.
(10:04):
Yeah. And just to have the confidence
to be like, I'm just going to casually drop this into a
conversation and expect this to get me somewhere that concerns
me because that means it's worked.
My thoughts exactly. My thoughts exactly.
Yeah, just the the cowardice on repeat.
(10:24):
Just biggest, biggest ick, the, the biggest like bait and switch
I ever got at work was in kind of similar to what you're
talking about in terms of like team events.
Specifically for me, it was teambuilding events where first of
all, like it was my, myself and my team's job to put them
(10:46):
together to organize everything.And so we started with asking a
lot of questions like what's the, what's the budget?
What are the rules? Like what are we, what are we
looking at? What's the scope?
And then the more we tried to put something together that was
actually fun and beneficial for everyone, especially to like
(11:07):
this. This was also during a time when
there was like a lot of being inshifting with personnel and we
had like more people on the team.
So like this was a great opportunity to create an
environment where everybody can get to know each other and
humanize each other. And as time went on, the the
scope in the budget got chipped away at and chipped away and
(11:29):
chipped away at until it just never ended up happening.
Oh wow. It never happened at all.
That is quite a shift in scope and budget, right?
So it's like what? What kind of message does that
send? You know, like, you know what,
never mind you, you guys know each other well enough already.
(11:52):
We've had enough meetings about the team building event.
That'll be your team building. Oh, that reminds me of a dating
situation, actually. The the date where they're like,
we're going to have the best date ever.
And then they don't feel well. And then they're like, I'll
totally make it up to you. And then they never make it up
(12:13):
to you. Yeah, that's yes.
There's so much crossover, Caitlin.
There's so much crossover. There really is the.
Dating coaches and like the job coaches need to get together and
and create some kind of like master sheet of dating and job
advice. You are reminding you are
(12:34):
reminding me of another kind of typical dating slash job
situation where it's like that you do do you?
I don't know Caitlin, if you ever relate to this.
There was a time when I was young and stupid where like the
mystery was a lot of fun. Like the mysterious person, you
(12:58):
know, they're, they're always like kind of in the corner and
quiet and oh, there was a time when that was like, yeah, like,
let me go figure that guy out. Now that I'm a therapist, I'm
all set, of course. Because like, I don't, I don't
want to do the paperwork. One of the things I will in a
(13:20):
dating situation, 100% ghost. As soon as someone says to me
the sentence ask me anything, I will.
I won't talk to them anymore because I reserve the right for
that. Caitlin, maybe I'm a terrible
person, but I reserve the right because that is literally what I
do for a living. I don't want like, let's have a
(13:41):
conversation. Don't make me do the work.
Thanks very much. But then when it's like ask me
anything and then then they answer vaguely.
That's the really bad sign. So sometimes in jobs, we, we
don't get a very clear understanding of what the job is
(14:02):
and but we might be in a place in life where we just have to
take it. I definitely had one where I was
an executive assistant, which meant I was just like, did a
little bit of everything, you know, planned the Christmas
party, did payroll, did HR, did some accounting, you know, like
the. Notorious catch all?
Yes, exactly. Along the same lines, Caitlin to
(14:27):
your story, I also did some IT and part of that job I hope
everyone knows means that everyone knows your that person
and IT knows your passwords. Yes.
And here's the thing, if you area neo Nazi, I will know that.
(14:48):
I will know that. And I did.
And so I had to play the game ofwhich one of our executives is a
neo Nazi. And I'm so like, it's so
disgusting. So disgusting.
Yeah, it's gross. It's gross.
I did not stay at that job for very long.
(15:08):
But yet, listen, people, someoneknows your password.
Yep. So.
Yeah, keep that. Keep that to yourself is all I'm
saying. Just on, on every level.
But yeah, yes. Absolutely.
And this, this should also, I mean, it should go without
saying, for heaven's sake, that you should not be doing anything
(15:32):
personal on your work devices, please. 100 percent, 100%, yes.
Yeah. You have a phone.
Do it on your. Phone right?
Like. Go.
Go be repulsive on your own. ISP Yeah, like IT knows IT knows
(16:00):
everything. What about you?
Caitlin Well, Oh my gosh, Lindy,you are reminding me of so much
and I don't know if that's a good thing because I'm laughing
or not. I think we're.
Officially trauma bonding at this point.
(16:21):
Honestly, yeah, that's, I mean, that's where that's how work
friendships start, right? Just coming into the break room
and kind of feeling out the the vibe.
And so I saw that that communication come through from
so and so, yeah, that was a little weird.
(16:42):
And you see the the bonds forming.
Yeah. So going back to the original
there the major dating ick, anytime somebody says, ask me
anything like the number of people that I have come across
and I, I will say it's mostly men on dating situations that
(17:07):
expect me to carry the conversation And like, look, as
I've mentioned this before, as aGemini, I can talk to a wall.
It's, it's not difficult. But the fact that the
expectation exists for me to do all the mental and communication
labor between two people that issupposed to be about getting to
(17:30):
know each other. No, I, I don't, I don't think
that your, your standards are too high just for unfortunately,
most people. The bar is in hell.
Uh huh. And how how I saw this Ask me
Anything situation occur in the workplace?
First of all, I feel like it's most common in the people that
(17:54):
like the serial messengers and teams.
So when you get a message from somebody that just says, hey,
I'm not exaggerating, Lindy, when I say I want to tear my
hair out, like it doesn't matterif I'm busy or if I have time.
Get to the point, yes? You're on the clock.
(18:17):
Jobs. Yes, in dating and jobs don't
ever hate me. Anyone in any situation.
I don't have time for this. Yes.
Yeah. Or even like in the same realm,
even if it's not serial messaging, people who like want
to have this like air or like facade of being a nice person in
(18:40):
order to get the information from you.
So they start with like, how wasyour weekend?
And it's like, look, I don't know you like that.
You're we're both telling. You.
Yes, right, You can't. Handle my weekend is how my
weekend was. Oh my gosh.
(19:04):
Literally there, there was even one time where an executive
asked me, you know, how, how wasyour weekend?
And they were known for kind of like springing big, big
questions on people and then, you know, big personality kind
of thing. And I didn't even think twice
about it. It was like, oh, it was a great
weekend. I went to visit this wolf
(19:25):
sanctuary and they were like, what?
And then and then all of a sudden, like this conversation
is turning into a competition because apparently my life is
more exciting than yours. Like, I'm sorry.
Sorry, you asked. Yes.
Right. Oh, yeah.
(19:46):
Yeah. The whole, like, competing about
the weekends is such a real thing.
Yeah. And then as soon as yours is
cooler, everyone either like, shuts up or like, has to like,
there's a little bit of something measuring going on
there for sure. Yeah, definitely.
But I feel like another equivalent of Ask me anything in
(20:09):
the workplace is when leadershipsays my door is always open, but
then they never answer their phone.
They never respond to their emails, regardless of what it's
about. Like I have, I have a pending
approval that needs your signature now or months of work
(20:29):
is going down the drain. Yeah.
Yeah, that's the the the one who's just not that into you.
That's a good. One too.
You're right. Where you.
Like meet, you know, an executive or someone.
It's like, yeah, call me anytime.
I'll pick up for you anytime. My door is always open.
(20:51):
Throw me, you know, throw, throwyourself into my outlook.
And yeah, yeah. A year later, maybe you've
gotten one meeting with that person, maybe on a good day and
they end up showing up 1/2 hour late and can stay for 5 minutes.
Yeah, exactly. And.
(21:13):
It and it's never, it's never fun because you feel so special
when they're like, yeah, like that's totally.
You've got such great ideas. I totally want to hear more
about that. Yeah.
They didn't mean a word of it. Yep.
And it's, it reminds me too of like that.
I don't know if you would call it like a personality trait
(21:36):
necessarily or just maybe like acommunication style.
But like the the over promise and under deliver, 'cause if you
think about it, in that situation, like what they're,
what they're promising is not just like connection, but
communication. Yes, Caitlin.
Yes. Tell me.
(22:00):
I hope within the next year we can connect.
I will respect that. I will understand what's
happening. Yes.
Tell me. I'm really hard to get in touch
with. I struggle or I'm busy or I
really want to connect with you.Here's the person that you talk
to to make that happen, right? Like on a serious note, one of
(22:24):
the first things that I always do when I'm supervising someone
for the first time is have a conversation about this is how
you are. This is how you can be in touch
with me. And also this is where I'm
terrible. I'm terrible over e-mail.
I will respond to them. They will be somewhat, somewhat
timely. You will get the worst version
(22:44):
of me. I am my best in person, which
means I'm going to put you in mycalendar once a week, once every
other week. That is when you will have full
Lindy. Anything outside of that is
going to be you're going to get 5% of me and you're not going to
get a good answer. So like bring all of your
(23:04):
questions to that hour, please. So like to me, it's on
leadership to know their communication style, to know
where they struggle to communicate that out and then to
to your point, under promise over deliver.
Absolutely. And using some dating language
here too, Like I feel like, at least for me, one of the biggest
(23:24):
red flags that I can get from orthat I see from leadership or
management is when you, when youask that question about, you
know, their, their communicationstyles, what works best for
them. And they say, Oh, anything,
e-mail, call, text teams. And it's like, look, you can't
be in all those places at once. And that just tells me that you
(23:48):
have like poor time management and that you value people
reaching out to you more than you can actually help them.
And maybe maybe that's some somework style tea right there, but
that's my experience. Here's the thing.
I. Like to remind people again,
(24:10):
we're getting a little serious here, but I think this is
important. When a person is getting paid
more than you and is has a higher status job than you, it's
OK to hold them to higher standards than you.
It's, I see this so often in both dating and professional
lives where people in high status positions get away with a
(24:31):
lot because they have people around them who will buffer for
them and do the extra work that they're not getting paid to do,
whether it's emotional labor, whether it's putting up with
more time management skills or poor organization skills, poor
communication skills and like doing the extra effort for them.
(24:52):
And it's OK to remember I'm not getting paid to do this.
They are. And know your audience, know if
you're safe. But if it's a relatively safe
situation, talk to them about it.
Ask them, you know, I'm noticingthis.
It's, it's a little bit beyond my scope.
Bring it to their attention. Yeah.
(25:14):
And. Especially like when, when that
kind of open communication and understanding between a leader
in a direct report can work so well together.
Because I, I will tell you, I'vehad leaders who have gone to bat
for me in situations that required it.
(25:35):
And that really, really does mean a lot.
And of of course, like I've, I've done the same for, for
people on my team. Yeah, and the, the appreciation
that comes from both sides is really, really invaluable.
And I, I see the same thing in personal relationships too.
Like there's, there's so many ways that we can stick up for
(25:55):
our partners in also recognizinglike the difference between
being a unit and also being autonomous.
Like we're still individual people.
Like I'm not standing up for youjust because like you're
associated with me, but also like because I have respect for
you. Yeah, I'll have you.
(26:16):
I'll I will have your back if it's earned.
If it's earned, it's not an automatic.
Yes, absolutely, Caitlin, I havea.
Question for you, maybe you can shed some light on this.
How do you know the difference between a love bomber in a
healthy situation, in the workplace and in dating too?
(26:38):
If you've got me, if you've got some gems to share, I have
definitely. Experienced love bombing in
relationships and as as you kindof mentioned previously, it
happened at a time when I myselfwas young and dumb.
I think the thing that really distinguishes love bombing is
(26:58):
that it's coming from a place ofego.
So the other person is essentially trying to establish
themselves as such a great person that they have all this
capacity for love and they're willing.
Oh, they're just so generous that they're willing to share it
all with you right now. Right.
(27:21):
There's an urgency to it. There's like, you have to know
all of my love in this moment. And I think when I think of the
work situation, this falls undera few different areas, but I
immediately, what immediately comes to mind is, oh, we're all
family here. We want to feel like part of the
(27:43):
family. Earn and run people.
As soon as people use the F wordin a work situation, just put in
your notice right there like nothing good comes from that
right? Exactly in in that case, never
mind the other F word like family should be the workplace F
word that's. The that's the F word.
(28:04):
Yeah, yeah. Drop, drop the F bomb all you
want. But like they say, family turn
and run. Yeah, family implies that it's.
It might come with love bombing.It might not.
One would hope, you know, buy mea drink first kind of thing,
but. The.
(28:26):
Implication there is it's never we're family, so we'll do
anything for you. It's your family.
So you're going to do all the things for us and put up with
poor boundaries and put up with bad behavior because I'm like,
you're a weird uncle, right? Like that's family.
It's never the cool family that's at work, right?
(28:47):
It's never your fun cousin. Or like, you know, the the aunt
who did really well for herself.It's it's the weird uncle.
Everyone's the weird uncle. Yeah, companies are always going
to be the the weird uncle that somehow always forget that they
owe you money. Yes, yeah.
(29:13):
And you know, I, I have to ask myself, Lindy, like the I of
course I understand like this, especially from, because I've,
I've been a trainer before. Even from that mentality of like
onboarding and bringing people in and kind of like this idea of
casting a spell of getting the team to believe in the mission
(29:34):
and the overall purpose and likeestablishing cohesion within a
team. Those are all important parts
that are absolutely necessary for smooth operations and, and
everything. But if you have to utilize and
in this way mechanize the same dynamics as family, which but as
(29:58):
many of us have experienced, youknow, varying degrees of
dysfunctionality with family, why why would you pick that it?
Just seems like. To get away from.
Family, thank you very much. In some cases, yes, definitely.
(30:20):
Well, and Halen, what a great point, like team cohesion, trust
building, communication, building is all really important
and sharing the vision, getting everyone on board.
These are all really important things, both the vision of the
company and the mission, but also like the vision of
(30:42):
individual leaders, like that's part of being a leader is
getting people to to understand your vision.
You made. A great point earlier, pay
attention to the ego. As soon as some, as soon as it
becomes more about that person than about the work and about
(31:06):
your growth as an individual member of the team, then that's
often when things start to go South.
So yes, if you show up to work, you are meant to be, you know,
in service of the vision of someone else.
That's how it works. Are they asking for your
feedback? Are they willing to recognize
(31:29):
when they've messed up? Right?
Is there, is there a form of accountability?
Because with family, there's no accountability.
In jobs, there should be checks and balances.
There should be accountability. So when I was running a team, I
worked very hard to create cohesion.
And one of the ways that I did that, I hope was by being very
(31:52):
open about how to hold myself accountable to them and talking
about like the ways of, if you're unhappy with my
performance, this is what you doabout it.
First, please come to me. If you don't feel comfortable
coming to me, you know, these are other options that you have.
So I think leadership, there's always a little bit of ego in
(32:14):
leadership, right? Like we, you know, Freud says we
need that a little bit. But when when it becomes about
their ego and there's no accountability, there's no
checks and balances, that can bea really scary thing because
it's no longer about you and your growth or even just like
getting the job done. It's about making that person
(32:35):
look good. Yeah.
And there's. Honestly, like a lot of what
you're talking about, Lindy alsoreminds me of why boundaries are
so important. And of course, like boundaries
and accountability are they go directly hand in hand because as
with personal relationships and the professional space, the the
(32:59):
great thing about accountability, as I've seen
like, you know, so many times, not only in myself, but also in,
in leadership, when you take theopportunity to say like, I'm
accountable for this, I messed up.
Here's how we can fix it and move on.
You really can move on because being in those uncomfortable
(33:23):
situations like, Nope, nobody naturally wants to stay in that
place. Like it's, it's very icky,
whether you're experiencing it or like the team as as a result
or what have you. And so it like it's, it's not
only a integrity thing about like being accountable as a
person, but it's, it's for everybody's benefit.
(33:44):
And as I said, like a big part of that too is, is boundaries
and. Setting.
Those at the very beginning, especially in personal
relationships to the point we were talking about earlier, with
clear communication can help avoid a lot of those situations.
So to give an example in like 1 personal boundary that I have,
(34:11):
I'll I'll do a. A simple one in relationships is
I don't really like pet names, mostly just because obviously
my, my name is Caitlin. I don't like being called Kate.
I don't have a nicknames or, or anything like that.
And so that's, that's just not my thing.
Like I like my name, please use it.
(34:31):
And some, you know, pretty straightforward boundaries that
we, that we see in the workplaceis some of the things we've
talked about, you know, in communication styles.
But one that comes to mind specifically for me is I was
working with a consultant and I was the liaison for, between the
consultant and, and this project.
(34:52):
And they were on the, the same time zone.
So let's just check that box offreal quick.
But tell me why they had to keeptexting me questions at 11:00 at
night? You got the you up text from
your supervisor. Gross.
Gross. Yep.
(35:14):
Yep, because it wasn't enough for me to say please contact me
within working hours and specifythat time.
And that wasn't enough for them because it continued.
So I brought it to my leadershipand said you, you need to
address this because it's it's it's not only getting worse, but
it's starting to come off reallycreepy.
Yeah. I don't want any of my Co
(35:38):
workers thinking of me at 11:00 at night like no.
All set 'cause I like don't thinking about.
That right like. Don't get me wrong, I'm I'm a
night owl sometimes my most likecreative times are between like
9:00 PM and 11:00 PM. But I'm not messaging anybody
about it, no. They don't need to know that,
(35:59):
no. No.
Yeah, that's, I mean, I think we've all been there.
And listen, Caitlin, I have definitely been that manager
who's like sending off a quick text and looked down and it's
6:00 and like, Oh my God, I'm sosorry.
Or like I'm on a phone call that's going a little long as
(36:19):
managers out there just ask, right.
You know, even if your people are salaried, that doesn't mean
that you automatically get them.They're not on call 365 days a
year, like that's not how that works.
So I would always try to remember as soon as like 5:00
hit or whatever their hours would be, you know, this, this
(36:42):
phone call is going a little long.
Do we want to try to pick this up at another time within your
working hours? Like that's that goes such a
long way from management it truly.
Does it truly does? And just for one more example,
and this was over 10 years ago, like back 'cause I I have
experience being an executive assistant as well.
(37:03):
Small world. My boss at the time used to
leave me like 6 to 10 minute voicemails on my phone on my
days off. No.
Mm. Hmm.
And then would e-mail me. Did you get my voicemail?
Oh no, they need to get friends.Get friends, please have a life.
(37:30):
Get. Friends touch grass with
whatever you need to do, whatever you.
Need to do. I won't judge it, I'll support.
You on this journey? Yes.
I don't want to know. About it, but I support you.
That reminds me a number of of another like huge boundary
violation that I totally forgot about but drives me nuts.
(37:54):
I'm a little judgy about it, I'mnot going to lie, but people who
get on a meeting or get in, you know, whether it's virtual or in
person and have no agenda and use it as their time, is their
social time. Oh my gosh.
And you just know that this was put in your calendar for an hour
(38:15):
and there's no way we're gettingthrough this in an hour.
And if they're senior to you, you're putting that really awful
position of like, so am I the one that's running this meeting
suddenly because no one else seems to know how to run a
meeting with an agenda. Such a waste of everyone's time.
And again, talk about ego, right?
Like, so to assume that I want to hear about your weekend
(38:39):
fishing trip at 3:00 on a Tuesday when I have two meetings
after this, I'm all set. Thanks.
Can we get to to this non existent agenda please?
Mm hmm. Yeah.
And therein is the the reason why I've, I've heard it before
dubbed that people like that canbe referred to as the the
(39:00):
seaweed of the office. They're just, they just float
around. They're not actually doing any
work. And yeah, they just, they just
have these like placeholder meetings on their calendar or
like where they waste other people's time.
And yeah, the, oh, what did we call it last time?
It's not obviously it's not microaggression.
(39:24):
Some of the healthy forms of pushback in those situations is.
And I, I would do this not just for me, not just for myself, but
for my executives too. Like when it came to the
calendar, management was explicitly asking for an agenda
before said meeting because of course, like people like that,
(39:45):
they get reputations for doing so.
Yeah, yes. And like, if you're senior
enough, no one's going to call you out on it.
And then, you know, we're just all stuck in this purgatory of
terrible meetings. Yeah, I strong agree.
And and the seaweed is, is real.And listen, as I've said in
(40:05):
previous episodes, I had a mess about in my calendar that was
meant to be without an agenda. And to like do total non work
things and just watch YouTube videos right like, but that was
how I chose to use that time. I didn't want every other
meeting to be like that. Thanks well for.
(40:26):
Sure. And not to mention the fact that
it was consensual. Because.
They knew what those meetings actually were.
A consensual mess about consensus.
Important 1. 100% I just feel like.
We've solved all the problems today, Caitlin.
(40:46):
Well, I have one, one more on that note, especially when it
comes to meetings, because it yeah, I I agree.
That's a huge pet peeve of mine as well.
Like this meeting could have been an e-mail or, you know,
could have been a fistfight for,for all we know, the the meme of
people doing the plank workout like while meeting because
(41:09):
anybody who's ever done a plank before, like to exercise your
core knows that 60 seconds is the longest 60 seconds in your
entire life if you're doing that.
So yeah, that that should be a rule for for those folks like
these, these will be the the planking meetings.
And then we'll see how long theylast.
(41:31):
Oh, I'll have to use that at some point.
Brilliant. Well, thanks Caitlin.
I think we have successfully bridged the dating and working
world and I would love to hear stories from people who have
experienced something similar. Yes, I'd love to hear any, any
(41:53):
and all dating esque work stories for sure.
And 'cause I know we, we have so, so many, we could, we could
probably do four more episodes on this.
Oh. Yeah, absolutely.
And Caitlin, when we're not in the break room, where can we
find you? So you can find me at
(42:15):
edisongreen.com specifically forcreative coaching and speaking
opportunities, as well as creative resources for every
kind of creator, innovator, and in between.
And specifically for authors, ifyou're looking for editing help
on on your book. How about you?
(42:36):
Lindy, so you can. Find me at lindylarimore.com.
I'm also on Instagram at Lindy Larimore, Facebook, LinkedIn,
and on my website you can find more information about my
consulting work and how to reduce burnout in your workplace
and prevent burnout. How to reduce turnover in your
(42:57):
workplace? But also I do a career coaching.
I specialize currently in careercoaching for folks who identify
as neurodivergent and navigatingthe career space.
I know it's really hard to find a job right now.
A lot of folks are getting burntout just on job search, let
alone the jobs themselves. So please feel free and reach
(43:19):
out. Awesome.
Well, thank you, Lindy, for another great conversation.
Thank you. See you next time until.
Next time.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to date.
Ways to date. We are going to do that today.
Right, just in a, in a differentway.
(00:26):
But we're looking at ways to take a break from the grind and
spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujilla, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larmour, licensed
therapist and certified career coach.
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. How you doing Lindy?
(00:48):
Good. I'm ready for some general
mischief today. What about you?
Absolutely feeling the more moreof the rebellious vibes and you
know, definitely spilling some more of the piping hot tea.
It'll be piping today for sure. Yeah, we're doing another short
(01:12):
that's a little fun, a little bit mischievous.
Yes. So today we're looking at how,
let's see, how would we describethis.
The dating pool and the job market pool are not too
dissimilar from each other nowadays in the difficulties in,
(01:33):
first of all, having somebody get back to you or even just
trying to have a normal conversation and sticking to the
subject. So today is your opportunity to
say it's not me, it's the job. I feel like I feel like a lot of
(01:54):
people are going to relate to this one today.
If you've ever been on a date and if you've ever had a job,
you've probably experienced at least one of these things.
Yeah. So for those of you who've done
both, you might see some, you might see some crossover like
where we've we've seen. So maybe you'll relate.
Please let us know. Yes.
We would love to hear your stories as well because where
(02:17):
there are bad dates, there are also bad jobs.
Also just for the record, I do want to say out loud I don't
recommend doing both in the sameplace.
Just you know, save your jading for outside the job.
Just maybe, I don't know is is that being boring?
(02:39):
This is definitely a good recommendation and and honestly,
I would argue vice versa as wellbecause and of course I talk
about this so much in terms of creativity coaching, we are all
so much more than our jobs. So when you go to meet somebody
for the first time, be it on a date or for another reason,
networking, what have you meeting, meeting your in laws,
(03:00):
maybe you don't have to make your introductions all about
your job because who you are as a person extends so much farther
than that. So just Please remember that we
want to know more about you, notjust how you get a paycheck.
Absolutely. Well said Caitlin.
And we are the burnout break room.
(03:22):
If you are only your job, check yourself right like you are
heading straight into burnout ifyou're not there already.
If you're only your job, get some hobbies, do some traveling,
meet some people, have a life outside of your job.
This has been my my Ted talk. Definitely.
(03:48):
So shall we get into it? I think so.
Do you want to go first? Sure.
So I feel like the the most common like bad dating
experience I have personally is the person who shows up and is
just pretending that everything's fine.
Meanwhile they can't stop talking about their ex and
(04:10):
they're basically like unloadingall of this emotional baggage.
And I've seen this in my work experience as well.
So personally, one story I have in in the workplace is a manager
who it didn't matter how far in advance I would give a heads up
(04:34):
about something down the line becoming a problem, or even just
the potential risk of something being a problem.
What it came down to was my manager being perfectly fine,
absolutely fine and dandy, willing to sign off on all of
this, having cash out in the open in the office.
(04:57):
Mm hmm. Not under lock and key.
It was incredibly uncomfortable,but just that that same approach
of yeah, this this is totally fine you know it's it's not a
problem whatsoever This doesn't implicate everyone and there's
there's no risk involved so it'syeah, you do you just have to be
(05:20):
fine with it. We're.
All good with this, right? Oof.
Oof, that's an interesting choice.
So Caitlin, I don't know about you.
I don't know if you've ever beencatfished on a date before.
I can't say that I ever have officially, but there's
definitely been times when you know, the, the picture doesn't
(05:42):
quite match the, the live experience.
We'll, we'll put it that way, right?
Like listen, we all have filterson our phones.
I am a 43 year old woman. I use filters, right?
Like this is a thing that happens.
I have progressed beyond the stage where like my skin is just
(06:02):
great the way it is. That's fine, right?
That's allowed. But when it's like this was
clearly 5 to 10 years ago, definitely or or another one
where it's like you like you were doing something really fun
in this picture. Like you seem like a really fun
person and like you, you do all the things and then you find out
(06:23):
like that was like the two timesin their life that they traveled
and the one time they went dancing or something.
You know, like it's not. At all who they?
Are right on. Somebody else's dime because it
was like a group trip or something like that.
The one wedding they got invitedto, Right?
Yeah. So you're like, oh, you seem
fun. And then it's then it's like,
(06:44):
oh, we're yeah, we would never go anywhere, would we?
One of my most favorite catfishing stories was when I
helped to open a partial program.
And so I was there on the first day, right?
You know, we were, we were all kind of starting together and it
was really exciting. It was a lot of fun.
(07:04):
Startups are fun. But the CEO at the time would
part of opening a place is you do a lot of tours and you
introduce to a lot of the fancy people you know, in the state
and in the industry constantly coming by.
And he was well known for bringing people on tours and at
(07:30):
some point dropping into the conversation how we're going to
be doing equestrian therapy. And this is, this was like a
hospital on not a lot of land, right?
Like it was in, it was actually in an industrial park.
So he just kept saying, like, yeah.
And then we're going to have horses over here.
(07:52):
And, you know, people be like, oh, wow.
Like, that's really wonderful that you're going to be doing
equestrian therapy. And yeah, to this day, there are
no horses that I know of. He is no longer there.
But yeah, I talk about catfishing because of course,
when you took the job, you're like, wow, like that.
We will be at the cutting edge, edge of treatment and we get to
hang out with horses somehow in this the middle of this
(08:15):
industrial park there, they'll be there.
So that that comes to mind when I think of, you know, the
picture on the dating profile ofthem riding a horse, right?
Yeah, that was that was my my catfishing experience at work.
(08:35):
Yeah, wow, Yeah. Talk, my gosh, talk about a bait
and switch. I'm, I'm going to add to that
and say that the biggest catfishthat I've experienced first,
like first of all on a date is regarding it, not appearances,
but I would say ethical stance because how do I put this
(08:58):
gently? So as the conversation started
to go on with the person that I was talking to on a, on a dating
app, they started to get really excited and started talking
about, you know, it's so great to to meet a, a pure woman of
(09:20):
I'll, I'll say they use the wordAryan background.
Yeah. Mm hmm.
I'm falling off my chair. Oh gross.
Well, at least they at least youknew what was coming like right
away. Right, right.
And honestly, in this case, the only thing more disgusting than
(09:42):
discovering not only that, I wasperceived that way because for
the entire world. Please know that I am not
aligned with this mentality or belief system whatsoever.
We can underline that 10 times. So gross.
So. Gross.
(10:04):
Yeah. And just to have the confidence
to be like, I'm just going to casually drop this into a
conversation and expect this to get me somewhere that concerns
me because that means it's worked.
My thoughts exactly. My thoughts exactly.
Yeah, just the the cowardice on repeat.
(10:24):
Just biggest, biggest ick, the, the biggest like bait and switch
I ever got at work was in kind of similar to what you're
talking about in terms of like team events.
Specifically for me, it was teambuilding events where first of
all, like it was my, myself and my team's job to put them
(10:46):
together to organize everything.And so we started with asking a
lot of questions like what's the, what's the budget?
What are the rules? Like what are we, what are we
looking at? What's the scope?
And then the more we tried to put something together that was
actually fun and beneficial for everyone, especially to like
(11:07):
this. This was also during a time when
there was like a lot of being inshifting with personnel and we
had like more people on the team.
So like this was a great opportunity to create an
environment where everybody can get to know each other and
humanize each other. And as time went on, the the
scope in the budget got chipped away at and chipped away and
(11:29):
chipped away at until it just never ended up happening.
Oh wow. It never happened at all.
That is quite a shift in scope and budget, right?
So it's like what? What kind of message does that
send? You know, like, you know what,
never mind you, you guys know each other well enough already.
(11:52):
We've had enough meetings about the team building event.
That'll be your team building. Oh, that reminds me of a dating
situation, actually. The the date where they're like,
we're going to have the best date ever.
And then they don't feel well. And then they're like, I'll
totally make it up to you. And then they never make it up
(12:13):
to you. Yeah, that's yes.
There's so much crossover, Caitlin.
There's so much crossover. There really is the.
Dating coaches and like the job coaches need to get together and
and create some kind of like master sheet of dating and job
advice. You are reminding you are
(12:34):
reminding me of another kind of typical dating slash job
situation where it's like that you do do you?
I don't know Caitlin, if you ever relate to this.
There was a time when I was young and stupid where like the
mystery was a lot of fun. Like the mysterious person, you
(12:58):
know, they're, they're always like kind of in the corner and
quiet and oh, there was a time when that was like, yeah, like,
let me go figure that guy out. Now that I'm a therapist, I'm
all set, of course. Because like, I don't, I don't
want to do the paperwork. One of the things I will in a
(13:20):
dating situation, 100% ghost. As soon as someone says to me
the sentence ask me anything, I will.
I won't talk to them anymore because I reserve the right for
that. Caitlin, maybe I'm a terrible
person, but I reserve the right because that is literally what I
do for a living. I don't want like, let's have a
(13:41):
conversation. Don't make me do the work.
Thanks very much. But then when it's like ask me
anything and then then they answer vaguely.
That's the really bad sign. So sometimes in jobs, we, we
don't get a very clear understanding of what the job is
(14:02):
and but we might be in a place in life where we just have to
take it. I definitely had one where I was
an executive assistant, which meant I was just like, did a
little bit of everything, you know, planned the Christmas
party, did payroll, did HR, did some accounting, you know, like
the. Notorious catch all?
Yes, exactly. Along the same lines, Caitlin to
(14:27):
your story, I also did some IT and part of that job I hope
everyone knows means that everyone knows your that person
and IT knows your passwords. Yes.
And here's the thing, if you area neo Nazi, I will know that.
(14:48):
I will know that. And I did.
And so I had to play the game ofwhich one of our executives is a
neo Nazi. And I'm so like, it's so
disgusting. So disgusting.
Yeah, it's gross. It's gross.
I did not stay at that job for very long.
(15:08):
But yet, listen, people, someoneknows your password.
Yep. So.
Yeah, keep that. Keep that to yourself is all I'm
saying. Just on, on every level.
But yeah, yes. Absolutely.
And this, this should also, I mean, it should go without
saying, for heaven's sake, that you should not be doing anything
(15:32):
personal on your work devices, please. 100 percent, 100%, yes.
Yeah. You have a phone.
Do it on your. Phone right?
Like. Go.
Go be repulsive on your own. ISP Yeah, like IT knows IT knows
(16:00):
everything. What about you?
Caitlin Well, Oh my gosh, Lindy,you are reminding me of so much
and I don't know if that's a good thing because I'm laughing
or not. I think we're.
Officially trauma bonding at this point.
(16:21):
Honestly, yeah, that's, I mean, that's where that's how work
friendships start, right? Just coming into the break room
and kind of feeling out the the vibe.
And so I saw that that communication come through from
so and so, yeah, that was a little weird.
(16:42):
And you see the the bonds forming.
Yeah. So going back to the original
there the major dating ick, anytime somebody says, ask me
anything like the number of people that I have come across
and I, I will say it's mostly men on dating situations that
(17:07):
expect me to carry the conversation And like, look, as
I've mentioned this before, as aGemini, I can talk to a wall.
It's, it's not difficult. But the fact that the
expectation exists for me to do all the mental and communication
labor between two people that issupposed to be about getting to
(17:30):
know each other. No, I, I don't, I don't think
that your, your standards are too high just for unfortunately,
most people. The bar is in hell.
Uh huh. And how how I saw this Ask me
Anything situation occur in the workplace?
First of all, I feel like it's most common in the people that
(17:54):
like the serial messengers and teams.
So when you get a message from somebody that just says, hey,
I'm not exaggerating, Lindy, when I say I want to tear my
hair out, like it doesn't matterif I'm busy or if I have time.
Get to the point, yes? You're on the clock.
(18:17):
Jobs. Yes, in dating and jobs don't
ever hate me. Anyone in any situation.
I don't have time for this. Yes.
Yeah. Or even like in the same realm,
even if it's not serial messaging, people who like want
to have this like air or like facade of being a nice person in
(18:40):
order to get the information from you.
So they start with like, how wasyour weekend?
And it's like, look, I don't know you like that.
You're we're both telling. You.
Yes, right, You can't. Handle my weekend is how my
weekend was. Oh my gosh.
(19:04):
Literally there, there was even one time where an executive
asked me, you know, how, how wasyour weekend?
And they were known for kind of like springing big, big
questions on people and then, you know, big personality kind
of thing. And I didn't even think twice
about it. It was like, oh, it was a great
weekend. I went to visit this wolf
(19:25):
sanctuary and they were like, what?
And then and then all of a sudden, like this conversation
is turning into a competition because apparently my life is
more exciting than yours. Like, I'm sorry.
Sorry, you asked. Yes.
Right. Oh, yeah.
(19:46):
Yeah. The whole, like, competing about
the weekends is such a real thing.
Yeah. And then as soon as yours is
cooler, everyone either like, shuts up or like, has to like,
there's a little bit of something measuring going on
there for sure. Yeah, definitely.
But I feel like another equivalent of Ask me anything in
(20:09):
the workplace is when leadershipsays my door is always open, but
then they never answer their phone.
They never respond to their emails, regardless of what it's
about. Like I have, I have a pending
approval that needs your signature now or months of work
(20:29):
is going down the drain. Yeah.
Yeah, that's the the the one who's just not that into you.
That's a good. One too.
You're right. Where you.
Like meet, you know, an executive or someone.
It's like, yeah, call me anytime.
I'll pick up for you anytime. My door is always open.
(20:51):
Throw me, you know, throw, throwyourself into my outlook.
And yeah, yeah. A year later, maybe you've
gotten one meeting with that person, maybe on a good day and
they end up showing up 1/2 hour late and can stay for 5 minutes.
Yeah, exactly. And.
(21:13):
It and it's never, it's never fun because you feel so special
when they're like, yeah, like that's totally.
You've got such great ideas. I totally want to hear more
about that. Yeah.
They didn't mean a word of it. Yep.
And it's, it reminds me too of like that.
I don't know if you would call it like a personality trait
(21:36):
necessarily or just maybe like acommunication style.
But like the the over promise and under deliver, 'cause if you
think about it, in that situation, like what they're,
what they're promising is not just like connection, but
communication. Yes, Caitlin.
Yes. Tell me.
(22:00):
I hope within the next year we can connect.
I will respect that. I will understand what's
happening. Yes.
Tell me. I'm really hard to get in touch
with. I struggle or I'm busy or I
really want to connect with you.Here's the person that you talk
to to make that happen, right? Like on a serious note, one of
(22:24):
the first things that I always do when I'm supervising someone
for the first time is have a conversation about this is how
you are. This is how you can be in touch
with me. And also this is where I'm
terrible. I'm terrible over e-mail.
I will respond to them. They will be somewhat, somewhat
timely. You will get the worst version
(22:44):
of me. I am my best in person, which
means I'm going to put you in mycalendar once a week, once every
other week. That is when you will have full
Lindy. Anything outside of that is
going to be you're going to get 5% of me and you're not going to
get a good answer. So like bring all of your
(23:04):
questions to that hour, please. So like to me, it's on
leadership to know their communication style, to know
where they struggle to communicate that out and then to
to your point, under promise over deliver.
Absolutely. And using some dating language
here too, Like I feel like, at least for me, one of the biggest
(23:24):
red flags that I can get from orthat I see from leadership or
management is when you, when youask that question about, you
know, their, their communicationstyles, what works best for
them. And they say, Oh, anything,
e-mail, call, text teams. And it's like, look, you can't
be in all those places at once. And that just tells me that you
(23:48):
have like poor time management and that you value people
reaching out to you more than you can actually help them.
And maybe maybe that's some somework style tea right there, but
that's my experience. Here's the thing.
I. Like to remind people again,
(24:10):
we're getting a little serious here, but I think this is
important. When a person is getting paid
more than you and is has a higher status job than you, it's
OK to hold them to higher standards than you.
It's, I see this so often in both dating and professional
lives where people in high status positions get away with a
(24:31):
lot because they have people around them who will buffer for
them and do the extra work that they're not getting paid to do,
whether it's emotional labor, whether it's putting up with
more time management skills or poor organization skills, poor
communication skills and like doing the extra effort for them.
(24:52):
And it's OK to remember I'm not getting paid to do this.
They are. And know your audience, know if
you're safe. But if it's a relatively safe
situation, talk to them about it.
Ask them, you know, I'm noticingthis.
It's, it's a little bit beyond my scope.
Bring it to their attention. Yeah.
(25:14):
And. Especially like when, when that
kind of open communication and understanding between a leader
in a direct report can work so well together.
Because I, I will tell you, I'vehad leaders who have gone to bat
for me in situations that required it.
(25:35):
And that really, really does mean a lot.
And of of course, like I've, I've done the same for, for
people on my team. Yeah, and the, the appreciation
that comes from both sides is really, really invaluable.
And I, I see the same thing in personal relationships too.
Like there's, there's so many ways that we can stick up for
(25:55):
our partners in also recognizinglike the difference between
being a unit and also being autonomous.
Like we're still individual people.
Like I'm not standing up for youjust because like you're
associated with me, but also like because I have respect for
you. Yeah, I'll have you.
(26:16):
I'll I will have your back if it's earned.
If it's earned, it's not an automatic.
Yes, absolutely, Caitlin, I havea.
Question for you, maybe you can shed some light on this.
How do you know the difference between a love bomber in a
healthy situation, in the workplace and in dating too?
(26:38):
If you've got me, if you've got some gems to share, I have
definitely. Experienced love bombing in
relationships and as as you kindof mentioned previously, it
happened at a time when I myselfwas young and dumb.
I think the thing that really distinguishes love bombing is
(26:58):
that it's coming from a place ofego.
So the other person is essentially trying to establish
themselves as such a great person that they have all this
capacity for love and they're willing.
Oh, they're just so generous that they're willing to share it
all with you right now. Right.
(27:21):
There's an urgency to it. There's like, you have to know
all of my love in this moment. And I think when I think of the
work situation, this falls undera few different areas, but I
immediately, what immediately comes to mind is, oh, we're all
family here. We want to feel like part of the
(27:43):
family. Earn and run people.
As soon as people use the F wordin a work situation, just put in
your notice right there like nothing good comes from that
right? Exactly in in that case, never
mind the other F word like family should be the workplace F
word that's. The that's the F word.
(28:04):
Yeah, yeah. Drop, drop the F bomb all you
want. But like they say, family turn
and run. Yeah, family implies that it's.
It might come with love bombing.It might not.
One would hope, you know, buy mea drink first kind of thing,
but. The.
(28:26):
Implication there is it's never we're family, so we'll do
anything for you. It's your family.
So you're going to do all the things for us and put up with
poor boundaries and put up with bad behavior because I'm like,
you're a weird uncle, right? Like that's family.
It's never the cool family that's at work, right?
(28:47):
It's never your fun cousin. Or like, you know, the the aunt
who did really well for herself.It's it's the weird uncle.
Everyone's the weird uncle. Yeah, companies are always going
to be the the weird uncle that somehow always forget that they
owe you money. Yes, yeah.
(29:13):
And you know, I, I have to ask myself, Lindy, like the I of
course I understand like this, especially from, because I've,
I've been a trainer before. Even from that mentality of like
onboarding and bringing people in and kind of like this idea of
casting a spell of getting the team to believe in the mission
(29:34):
and the overall purpose and likeestablishing cohesion within a
team. Those are all important parts
that are absolutely necessary for smooth operations and, and
everything. But if you have to utilize and
in this way mechanize the same dynamics as family, which but as
(29:58):
many of us have experienced, youknow, varying degrees of
dysfunctionality with family, why why would you pick that it?
Just seems like. To get away from.
Family, thank you very much. In some cases, yes, definitely.
(30:20):
Well, and Halen, what a great point, like team cohesion, trust
building, communication, building is all really important
and sharing the vision, getting everyone on board.
These are all really important things, both the vision of the
company and the mission, but also like the vision of
(30:42):
individual leaders, like that's part of being a leader is
getting people to to understand your vision.
You made. A great point earlier, pay
attention to the ego. As soon as some, as soon as it
becomes more about that person than about the work and about
(31:06):
your growth as an individual member of the team, then that's
often when things start to go South.
So yes, if you show up to work, you are meant to be, you know,
in service of the vision of someone else.
That's how it works. Are they asking for your
feedback? Are they willing to recognize
(31:29):
when they've messed up? Right?
Is there, is there a form of accountability?
Because with family, there's no accountability.
In jobs, there should be checks and balances.
There should be accountability. So when I was running a team, I
worked very hard to create cohesion.
And one of the ways that I did that, I hope was by being very
(31:52):
open about how to hold myself accountable to them and talking
about like the ways of, if you're unhappy with my
performance, this is what you doabout it.
First, please come to me. If you don't feel comfortable
coming to me, you know, these are other options that you have.
So I think leadership, there's always a little bit of ego in
(32:14):
leadership, right? Like we, you know, Freud says we
need that a little bit. But when when it becomes about
their ego and there's no accountability, there's no
checks and balances, that can bea really scary thing because
it's no longer about you and your growth or even just like
getting the job done. It's about making that person
(32:35):
look good. Yeah.
And there's. Honestly, like a lot of what
you're talking about, Lindy alsoreminds me of why boundaries are
so important. And of course, like boundaries
and accountability are they go directly hand in hand because as
with personal relationships and the professional space, the the
(32:59):
great thing about accountability, as I've seen
like, you know, so many times, not only in myself, but also in,
in leadership, when you take theopportunity to say like, I'm
accountable for this, I messed up.
Here's how we can fix it and move on.
You really can move on because being in those uncomfortable
(33:23):
situations like, Nope, nobody naturally wants to stay in that
place. Like it's, it's very icky,
whether you're experiencing it or like the team as as a result
or what have you. And so it like it's, it's not
only a integrity thing about like being accountable as a
person, but it's, it's for everybody's benefit.
(33:44):
And as I said, like a big part of that too is, is boundaries
and. Setting.
Those at the very beginning, especially in personal
relationships to the point we were talking about earlier, with
clear communication can help avoid a lot of those situations.
So to give an example in like 1 personal boundary that I have,
(34:11):
I'll I'll do a. A simple one in relationships is
I don't really like pet names, mostly just because obviously
my, my name is Caitlin. I don't like being called Kate.
I don't have a nicknames or, or anything like that.
And so that's, that's just not my thing.
Like I like my name, please use it.
(34:31):
And some, you know, pretty straightforward boundaries that
we, that we see in the workplaceis some of the things we've
talked about, you know, in communication styles.
But one that comes to mind specifically for me is I was
working with a consultant and I was the liaison for, between the
consultant and, and this project.
(34:52):
And they were on the, the same time zone.
So let's just check that box offreal quick.
But tell me why they had to keeptexting me questions at 11:00 at
night? You got the you up text from
your supervisor. Gross.
Gross. Yep.
(35:14):
Yep, because it wasn't enough for me to say please contact me
within working hours and specifythat time.
And that wasn't enough for them because it continued.
So I brought it to my leadershipand said you, you need to
address this because it's it's it's not only getting worse, but
it's starting to come off reallycreepy.
Yeah. I don't want any of my Co
(35:38):
workers thinking of me at 11:00 at night like no.
All set 'cause I like don't thinking about.
That right like. Don't get me wrong, I'm I'm a
night owl sometimes my most likecreative times are between like
9:00 PM and 11:00 PM. But I'm not messaging anybody
about it, no. They don't need to know that,
(35:59):
no. No.
Yeah, that's, I mean, I think we've all been there.
And listen, Caitlin, I have definitely been that manager
who's like sending off a quick text and looked down and it's
6:00 and like, Oh my God, I'm sosorry.
Or like I'm on a phone call that's going a little long as
(36:19):
managers out there just ask, right.
You know, even if your people are salaried, that doesn't mean
that you automatically get them.They're not on call 365 days a
year, like that's not how that works.
So I would always try to remember as soon as like 5:00
hit or whatever their hours would be, you know, this, this
(36:42):
phone call is going a little long.
Do we want to try to pick this up at another time within your
working hours? Like that's that goes such a
long way from management it truly.
Does it truly does? And just for one more example,
and this was over 10 years ago, like back 'cause I I have
experience being an executive assistant as well.
(37:03):
Small world. My boss at the time used to
leave me like 6 to 10 minute voicemails on my phone on my
days off. No.
Mm. Hmm.
And then would e-mail me. Did you get my voicemail?
Oh no, they need to get friends.Get friends, please have a life.
(37:30):
Get. Friends touch grass with
whatever you need to do, whatever you.
Need to do. I won't judge it, I'll support.
You on this journey? Yes.
I don't want to know. About it, but I support you.
That reminds me a number of of another like huge boundary
violation that I totally forgot about but drives me nuts.
(37:54):
I'm a little judgy about it, I'mnot going to lie, but people who
get on a meeting or get in, you know, whether it's virtual or in
person and have no agenda and use it as their time, is their
social time. Oh my gosh.
And you just know that this was put in your calendar for an hour
(38:15):
and there's no way we're gettingthrough this in an hour.
And if they're senior to you, you're putting that really awful
position of like, so am I the one that's running this meeting
suddenly because no one else seems to know how to run a
meeting with an agenda. Such a waste of everyone's time.
And again, talk about ego, right?
Like, so to assume that I want to hear about your weekend
(38:39):
fishing trip at 3:00 on a Tuesday when I have two meetings
after this, I'm all set. Thanks.
Can we get to to this non existent agenda please?
Mm hmm. Yeah.
And therein is the the reason why I've, I've heard it before
dubbed that people like that canbe referred to as the the
(39:00):
seaweed of the office. They're just, they just float
around. They're not actually doing any
work. And yeah, they just, they just
have these like placeholder meetings on their calendar or
like where they waste other people's time.
And yeah, the, oh, what did we call it last time?
It's not obviously it's not microaggression.
(39:24):
Some of the healthy forms of pushback in those situations is.
And I, I would do this not just for me, not just for myself, but
for my executives too. Like when it came to the
calendar, management was explicitly asking for an agenda
before said meeting because of course, like people like that,
(39:45):
they get reputations for doing so.
Yeah, yes. And like, if you're senior
enough, no one's going to call you out on it.
And then, you know, we're just all stuck in this purgatory of
terrible meetings. Yeah, I strong agree.
And and the seaweed is, is real.And listen, as I've said in
(40:05):
previous episodes, I had a mess about in my calendar that was
meant to be without an agenda. And to like do total non work
things and just watch YouTube videos right like, but that was
how I chose to use that time. I didn't want every other
meeting to be like that. Thanks well for.
(40:26):
Sure. And not to mention the fact that
it was consensual. Because.
They knew what those meetings actually were.
A consensual mess about consensus.
Important 1. 100% I just feel like.
We've solved all the problems today, Caitlin.
(40:46):
Well, I have one, one more on that note, especially when it
comes to meetings, because it yeah, I I agree.
That's a huge pet peeve of mine as well.
Like this meeting could have been an e-mail or, you know,
could have been a fistfight for,for all we know, the the meme of
people doing the plank workout like while meeting because
(41:09):
anybody who's ever done a plank before, like to exercise your
core knows that 60 seconds is the longest 60 seconds in your
entire life if you're doing that.
So yeah, that that should be a rule for for those folks like
these, these will be the the planking meetings.
And then we'll see how long theylast.
(41:31):
Oh, I'll have to use that at some point.
Brilliant. Well, thanks Caitlin.
I think we have successfully bridged the dating and working
world and I would love to hear stories from people who have
experienced something similar. Yes, I'd love to hear any, any
(41:53):
and all dating esque work stories for sure.
And 'cause I know we, we have so, so many, we could, we could
probably do four more episodes on this.
Oh. Yeah, absolutely.
And Caitlin, when we're not in the break room, where can we
find you? So you can find me at
(42:15):
edisongreen.com specifically forcreative coaching and speaking
opportunities, as well as creative resources for every
kind of creator, innovator, and in between.
And specifically for authors, ifyou're looking for editing help
on on your book. How about you?
(42:36):
Lindy, so you can. Find me at lindylarimore.com.
I'm also on Instagram at Lindy Larimore, Facebook, LinkedIn,
and on my website you can find more information about my
consulting work and how to reduce burnout in your workplace
and prevent burnout. How to reduce turnover in your
(42:57):
workplace? But also I do a career coaching.
I specialize currently in careercoaching for folks who identify
as neurodivergent and navigatingthe career space.
I know it's really hard to find a job right now.
A lot of folks are getting burntout just on job search, let
alone the jobs themselves. So please feel free and reach
(43:19):
out. Awesome.
Well, thank you, Lindy, for another great conversation.
Thank you. See you next time until.
Next time.
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