October 20, 2025 • 52 mins
Are you feeling the grief of not being able to quit a toxic job? This week, Caitlan and Lyndie talk about how to take care of yourself in a time when it's not feasible to hit "GO" on your exit plan just yet and share tips on how to get through rough times on more than just "toughing it out."
📗 Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book or hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at https://caitlantrewhella.com/
📙 Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach, licensed Therapist and Consultant, and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
https://lyndielaramore.com/
Use our link to get 15% off your purchase of Loop earplugs to live life at your volume: https://loop-earplugs.sjv.io/09304N
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Wendy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:25):
We're your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. This episode is brought to you
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(00:46):
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Hi Caitlin. Hello Lindy, how are you today?
(01:08):
I I am managing today at the time of this recording.
Unfortunately, the very lovely and lauded Dr. Jane Goodall has
passed and I'm feeling it. Yeah, she was important to you,
right? Very much so, yeah.
(01:29):
Ever since I was young, she was like one of my heroes.
And honestly, she was one of thefirst women in science that I
learned about and therefore kindof set the tone for, you know,
the the possibility of, you know, women in STEM and also
(01:51):
just in, I guess you would say ahigher academic settings.
So yeah, she was a big inspiration to me for sure.
Yeah, a huge loss to the world, into the scientific community
and absolutely groundbreaking the spaces that she was able to
be in and the work that she was able to do.
(02:13):
It's hard to lose. I think especially at times like
this, it's hard to lose women who have been the Trail Blazers
because I think I'm feeling the absence of strong female voices
right now in the world. I, I feel like they're, they're
being intentionally drowned out.I'm not saying they're not
(02:35):
there, They're definitely there.But I think there's so much like
other noise happening that it's,it's hard to see another big
presence being lost. I remember being particularly
affected when Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away and the
timing of her loss and how it just felt like it.
It just felt like there was symbolism there.
(02:56):
And I don't think that was wrongat the time.
Like, I think just knowing that she was gone and the timing just
felt particularly poignant. And there's something about this
loss that feels that way, too. Yeah, most definitely it it
feels like a collective loss forsure.
And I couldn't agree with you more like those because the the
(03:18):
other voices that have, you know, been an ongoing part in
important advocacy are still there.
But it definitely feels like there's so much work being done
to, to drown them out or to to silence them.
I've read some of Greta Tunberg's works as well.
And in very much the the same way.
(03:41):
It's, it's like that reminder that everyone can make a
difference. And I mean, even reading her
speeches from, you know, such a young age, it's, it's so, so
it's so inspiring. So I, I feel like the, the other
part of this Lindy is like, yes,we, we can recognize important
people in our lives and inspirational figures, but it's
(04:05):
the, these things are more than just one person, you know, And
remembering that it is the, the collective that comes together
to, to make a difference. But those collectives can start
with one person. Yes, there's often the person
who says the thing that no one else is saying who inspires
(04:28):
others or does the thing that that no one else is doing right.
And it can sometimes be the samething or two different things,
right? So then they then they inspire
everyone else to to come along and to join.
So if you're one of those people, we see you, we
appreciate you. We know that that's exhausting
work because often times they'realso the recipients of the the
(04:51):
backlash and that can be exhausting.
So yeah, if you have something to say that feels important, say
it and and find some good community.
Definitely. I feel like the other side of
that too is grief can take many forms and sometimes even just
recognizing it can be like a, a sense of relief.
(05:14):
But yeah, it's it's difficult toto be that person, to make waves
and push back against these, these big systems and the
mentalities of like, this is theway that we've always done it
kind of thing. And sometimes we do that just by
recognizing that, you know, the the job we're in or the the
(05:37):
working situation we're in is not working for us anymore.
It's so good that you use the term grief there because I do
think there is a grief when whenyou recognize that you are in a
relationship that's no longer serving you.
And that's exactly what a job is, right?
You're in relationship with yourjob and there is this moment in
(06:03):
burnout work, you know, as a burnout coach and as a therapist
who works with folks in burnout.I don't know that I've said out
loud that most of the time the work that we're doing is not,
this is how you leave the toxic job situation.
It's this is how you survive thetoxic job situation until you
(06:25):
can get out in a way that does more good than harm, right?
It actually reminds me a little bit of the work that I've done
with survivors of domestic violence, which might sound
extreme and it's not exactly thesame thing, let me be clear.
(06:45):
But there is an element of the moment between this relationship
is unhealthy for me and being free of that relationship can
sometimes take years for some folks.
And it's often this kind of backand forth, like, well, maybe
maybe I'm just overreacting. Maybe if I just am a little more
(07:09):
quiet or, or, you know, maybe ifI wasn't so difficult to work
with, you know, etcetera, then then maybe this would work out
better. And there's often that kind of,
I see this both with folks in toxic relationships and with
folks in toxic work environments.
Both situations require a lot ofgas lighting to keep.
(07:29):
Yes. Oh my gosh.
Yes. Mm hmm.
And boy, is gaslighting a powerful thing.
Yes, Oh my gosh, you are so incredibly on the nose with this
Lindy. And yes, I do agree with you
that obviously there are nuancesbetween these two situations,
but your work life is absolutelya relationship.
(07:53):
Like we have relationship with our jobs in general.
And then, you know, also you're working relationships with your
colleagues too. Because as I'm sure everybody
has experience, there's always one person in a workplace that
in one form or another makes everyone's day more difficult.
And I, I mean, I feel like one of the most empowering things
(08:17):
that we can do for ourselves in both personal relationships and
our work settings is recognize in any and all of the ways that
being complacent or just accepting those situations as
they are serve either the systemor the other person.
(08:38):
And Caitlin, I here's here's to your point.
Here is a moment that is really difficult when it comes to
recognizing I'm in a toxic work situation.
I can't afford to leave yet, whether it's because I can't,
you know, the the job market is difficult right now.
(08:59):
So I can't just quit my job right until I have something
else lined up? Right.
And for many people, they need to have something lined up that
pays something similar, right? Or they can, they might want to
take a pay cut, but they need tohave something else to
supplement, right? So that takes time, especially
in a tough job market. But sometimes the conversation
(09:19):
I'm having, and this is a difficult one, is yes, you work
in a toxic environment. Whether it's because you are
being treated differently and unfairly because of some kind of
identity that you carry or leadership is just failing right
(09:40):
now. They're just not stepping up to
the plate and therefore things are a hot dumpster fire.
Whatever it is. Sometimes the really awful truth
that comes out of that is I'm going to have to put up with
this and not do a damn thing about it.
(10:02):
And that is such a difficult moment.
And that usually comes after, you know, I've tried to talk to
my supervisor, I've tried to talk to Co workers, I've, I've
tried to address it in all of the professional and appropriate
ways and sometimes even like unprofessional and inappropriate
ways. Maybe I've even gone to HR
(10:23):
right? Like it's, it's after all of
those options have been visited and you recognize that really
awful moment when it's like, oh,this is, this is what's
happening. Got it.
So it's a it's choosing to give up and fail, but knowing you
(10:45):
can't leave yet can be a really tough.
Moment yeah, no absolutely. And especially for one of the
things that we've talked about previously is the kind of
burnout that happens when you'renot aligned with your
principles. And I mean, I've, I feel like so
many people have experienced it in, in that way, especially like
(11:07):
I think it was a couple of yearsago now the, the trend, you
know, on social media talking about like act your wage and
like revolutionary idea of quietquitting.
And you have people in, in leadership that are there.
There's so much conversation that happened after the fact,
like why is this happening? And how, how do we counteract
(11:29):
it? Because we, we don't want people
to be doing the bare minimum. But it's, it's not, you know,
from, from a worker standpoint, it's, it's not wanting to do
the, the bare minimum. It, it is a reaction to an
impossible situation. People have exhausted their
options. They've gone to HR, they've, you
(11:50):
know, tried dealing with poor situations that make these toxic
work situations unbearable. They've done everything that
they can and in so many situations, they're, they're not
heard or paid attention to and ultimately there is no solution.
And so that realization that you're talking about that this
(12:12):
is something that I'm just goingto have to put up with it.
It is a form of grief because you then every day you come into
work, you know what you're goingto be met with.
You know that it's going to, it's going to require more of
your energy both, you know, mental, emotional, spiritual,
physical energy, every, everything and a bag of potato
(12:35):
chips. Well, and Caitlin, there's there
is this other category that happens too, which is like they
have spoken up, they have said something and now they're being
targeted or intentionally left off of things.
Or maybe they were flying under the radar before and now there's
(12:59):
now everyone's paying attention to their work and maybe even
this feeling like, oh, you're you, you're really waiting for
me to mess up here. Because I've become a flying the
ointment, I've become a disruptor.
I've been, I've been identified as someone as a threat to the
system in some ways and that it's not always that situation,
(13:22):
but it can be. And so part of the work that I
do as a therapist who specializes in burnout or as a
burnout coach is sitting with folks as they are in that
situation. And I think part of the grief
that I see is often times folks who are in that situation are
(13:43):
some of the hardest workers there.
They are the people who have been giving 125% since day one
and it is not until they've hit this wall where they're like, if
I continue to give 125%, I'm going to be punished 185%.
Yep. And I will be too visible and it
(14:05):
will be used against me and I. I know this might even sound
paranoid or but I have a feelingthis will resonate some folks.
Like I need to start being invisible and mediocre in order
to survive this work until I canget out in a Safeway.
Which is again, very similar to domestic violence work, right?
(14:29):
We talked about Gray rocking in in when when being in
relationship with with toxic folks.
The idea of being the grayest rock in the room, the most
boring person in the room. I will say, Caitlin, one of the
best, some of the best advice that I got when I was in a
(14:50):
situation similar to that was talk as if you're reading out of
a textbook on good business practice or talk as if you're
reading out of a textbook on leadership.
So it's not like you're trying to be creative.
It's not trying like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.
You are just trying to almost be, it's like almost robotic and
(15:13):
uninteresting as possible in order to get through the other
side. And for those who have given a
lot to their jobs, who have tried to create a better world
for the people there, that is absolutely a huge loss.
(15:34):
Absolutely. And I just want to call out one
of the things that you mentionedbefore as well is coming to that
realization that you are being targeted at work and having that
reaction or assumption, you know, am, am I being paranoid?
And, and the self questioning that follows that is a direct
(15:55):
result of the same kind of gaslighting that we were talking
about earlier. But in in these situations, you
really have to listen to your gut instinct, listen to your
intuition. If something doesn't feel right,
it's it doesn't feel right for areason.
And of course, I, I understand that this, this in a lot of
(16:18):
situations can be a lot to ask, to just simply listen to your
intuition. Because when, when we find
ourselves in these spaces, either in like bad relationships
or in a toxic work environment, they, they are so often the
product of, it's somewhat morbid, but you know, the, the
(16:39):
phrase like death by 1000 cuts. Because of course, if these
situations were as toxic as theyare, you know, several years or
what have you down the road on day one, of course it'd be
raising, you know, red flags allover the place.
But this, this is how we learn to identify, you know, the
environments and the situations and the people that don't work
(17:01):
for us or that actively don't have our best interest at heart.
That's, that's one of the ways in, in which we learn.
And so, yeah, I know it's, it's not an easy thing to do to just
just trust your intuition. But this is a whole process of
relearning to to listen to that gut instinct for for yourself.
(17:24):
Absolutely. One of the most effective ways
to beat someone down is to get them to stop trusting their
guts. And so something that can be
very effective when recognizing,oh, I no longer can trust, feel
like I can trust my gut is to. And I think this is extremely
(17:46):
important in any toxic situation, whether it's a
relationship or work, is to findyour safe people.
And there's always one or two. There's always one or two.
And know what's safe to share because then you can go to those
people and say, Hey, like, I, I feel like I'm in this, this
(18:07):
weird situation. Is it OK if I pass this by you
and get your perspective on whether or not this is me
overreacting, This is me, you know, not trusting my gut or
this is me responding to a bad situation?
And so, you know, find those people that can be your sounding
(18:28):
boards and even share with them that like, it's extremely
important that you not share this with anyone.
It's extremely important that this conversation remain
confidential and, you know, see to which level they are, they
are comfortable with that, and if they're not comfortable with
that, let you know. Honor that, respect it, but find
your safe people so that you canuse them as a sounding board if
(18:51):
you feel that you are experiencing some form of gas
lighting. Absolutely.
And Lindy, this, this is amazingadvice.
And and also going back to Gray rocking, as you were talking
about before, like become the most uninteresting person in in
the room in order to, to fly under the, the radar.
But I feel like this ties in beautifully to what you're
(19:14):
talking about too, Because when,when you start to become
invisible and blend into the background, you can also take in
a lot more information about howother people act.
And so in the same way, one of the easiest ways to determine
people who at least have the potential to be trustworthy is
(19:36):
observing not just who they talkto, but what they talk about.
So for example, people that talka lot about others, even if it's
not necessarily in a gossipy way.
I mean, that's, that's your red flag right there.
So, you know, there's, if they're comfortable sharing
information about other people or other situations, you know,
(19:56):
even if it's just for their own benefit of being the person in
the room that has a story. Then yeah, that's probably not a
safe person to share that with. And I know we've mentioned it a
little bit in other episodes as well, even when it comes to
finding friends in the workplacesometimes as a result of trauma
(20:17):
bonding from these situations. So obviously in an ideal world,
we can, you know, make workplacefriendships without having to to
trauma bond, but at least those that can be a potential, you
know, good situation to come outof it.
So I, I, I want to almost do a little recapping because I do
(20:40):
think we're, we're, you know, not, not every episode is about
like giving advice, but I, we've, we've talked about like,
if you recognize that you're feeling under a microscope, it's
OK to be the Gray rock. It's OK to be uninteresting and
you might need to fly under the radar and that's OK.
Next piece of advice is find your safe person.
(21:03):
There's another thing that you in, in that Caitlin, that you
highlighted that I, that I want to bring forward.
That was actually really, reallyimportant for me when I felt
overwhelmed in a situation and, and over my head.
So this is specific to me, but maybe somebody needs to hear
this. Before I found out I had ADHD,
(21:26):
one of the symptoms that I experienced, and this is a
symptom of ADHD that was that that was quite disruptive to my
early days of leadership was I would have this thing that I
felt like I needed to say that was like burning inside of me.
And it was actually really uncomfortable for me to just sit
with it. And so, and especially if I was
(21:50):
in a situation that made me feelanxious.
So and sometimes it was because it needed to be set or like
there was AI had a solution to aproblem where I was recognizing
a problem that no one else was recognizing.
But part of that with ADHD is it's actually like really
physically uncomfortable to kindof hold it in.
(22:12):
So there was a moment where likethat tendency or urge helped me
because then I had a, a little more nerve, right, to like just
kind of say something in a Zoom meeting when we suddenly
everyone was on Zoom, right? And I think a lot of people that
found that very overwhelming, like I don't know how to act on
(22:34):
Zoom suddenly. And I just was like, I guess
I'll talk now, right? But there was a, there was also
a lot of times when I probably didn't need to say anything
because a, there's this thing where you say something and
suddenly that means you're volunteering for something.
You didn't mean to volunteer. So when you have the good idea,
(22:56):
suddenly you're in charge of thegood idea, right?
Yes. Oh my gosh.
So in the best of times, like, ask yourself before you unmute
or raise your hand or jump into a conversation, do I want to be
in charge of this project? But then, you know, as time went
on and I found myself more and more in situations where
(23:18):
speaking up might have put me ina precarious situation, perhaps
it really helped to hear someonesay to me, Lindy, it's OK if you
don't say it out loud. Like, it's OK to just not say
anything, right? Which for some people might be
like, yeah, no kidding, right? I needed to hear that.
(23:38):
I needed to hear, like, Lindy, it's OK for you to just kind of
keep your mouth shut, which sounds so awful and like, I
don't know, like, I would never say that to a woman, but I
needed to hear that, if that makes sense.
Like. So I think the advice that I
would give is before you say anything when you are in
(23:59):
situations like this, pause and ask yourself, how can this you
be used against me? Yeah.
Is this going to put a target onmy back?
Yes, exactly. And if so, it's probably not
worth saying even if it's the best idea in the room sometimes,
because it's the best idea in the room and puts a target on
(24:20):
your back. Yes, absolutely.
And I'm, I'm thinking immediately, Lindy, of like the
the 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene, which let, let me just
do a small asterisk on that. I personally do not agree with
most of the principles outlined in that book.
(24:42):
However, I, I do think it is good information to know,
especially in these situations, because the principles are
followed by a lot of the systemsand the people in power in these
spaces. So we certainly don't have to
live our lives by these principles, but it is good to
(25:03):
know. And the one that you're
reminding me of the most is the number one rule in these 48 laws
of power is don't outshine the master, which is so fucking
bonkers in my opinion. Like we we.
(25:23):
You really mean to tell me that any organization is only going
to thrive if we all tiptoe around the CE OS ego?
No thank you. No thank you.
So part of the advice is recognize when your CEO or
supervisor or manager or director requires you to walk on
(25:46):
egg shells. Like that's really important
information to know if they, if they are uncomfortable with
being outshined, yes, probably don't be there.
But to our point, that's often not an immediate solution.
Yeah, absolutely. And the before I forget the
(26:08):
other thing that I want to mention as well, because this
was a huge part of my experiencein not only realizing that I was
burnt out, but in in a toxic situation that I wasn't able to
leave immediately in in the workplace.
Is that horrible sinking feelingof, oh shit, 9095% of my network
(26:33):
is in this workplace and so therefore I didn't recognize
that I wasn't doing the work to expand and nurture and, you
know, develop my network outsideof this environment.
And Caitlin, you, you're, you'rereminding me actually of
(26:54):
something that was a red flag and an indication that I was in
a toxic workplace and I didn't recognize it as such right away.
When a workplace views networking as a threat.
So specifically, like I always loved one of the things I loved
about doing startup work was it often requires a lot of
(27:17):
networking. It requires a lot of getting to
know other people in the area, other people that are doing
similar work. I love doing that.
I love setting up relationships in the community and getting our
name out there and being able togo to schools and 1st responders
and you know, other people providing similar services and
(27:37):
setting up these relationships. One of my most favorite things
about start up work, when I wentto an organization that was
fully established and they didn't understand why I wanted
to continue that work, it was a sign that I was in a toxic work
environment. I just didn't see it as such.
And because there was this idea that was like, well, why would
(28:00):
we go outside of our own environment?
We have all the answers. We're doing it right.
We don't need to like be bothered with creating
relationships outside of ourselves.
So I would say, yes, networking is so important for the reasons
we're talking about, but also ifthat is viewed as threatening,
(28:22):
that's a red flag that you mightbe in a toxic environment.
Huge. Absolutely.
And I just want to expand on on that too.
It's especially in terms of identifying red flags, 11 red
flag that absolutely flew under the radar for me at the, at the
start of like being in this particular environment was not
(28:45):
just an environment seeing networking as a threat, but as I
saw, you know, people transitionout of the company and go on to
do other things specifically like how those interactions were
manifested on LinkedIn. Just just as one example is the
(29:09):
the treatment of those people. As soon as you leave the, the
company, it's like you're, you're dead to all the people in
that network. There's no more engagement
whatsoever. It's they're they're outsiders
now. And so it's like that, that us
and them mentality. And in this way, I think to, I
(29:32):
guess like put a specific perspective on it or like one,
one of the ways this red flag ismanifested is the mentality in a
workplace that I mean, if I'm to, to use the dreaded F word
and say that we're, we're like afamily.
But but again that that us and them mentality of our our unity
(29:55):
is solely based on keeping everybody in the house,
necessarily so. Here here is a sign that you
were in a toxic work environment.
Weaponized loyalty. We are, I think, I think this is
a societal thing. I think we're in a society that
(30:15):
values loyalty. And maybe I'm getting it wrong,
but loyalty can actually be it'sit's often viewed as a positive
and it can be, but only if it's allowed to be questioned.
And loyalty is a is a tricky subject because companies rely
(30:36):
on it not only in their brandingand their PR, but also in order
to keep folks working there. But loyalty should be something
that is earned, not expected, not transactional.
It's. Not transactional.
So if loyalty is treated like something that the company or
your your leaders should just get by virtue of just being the
(31:00):
company and the leaders, then that's that's kind of a red flag
for toxicity, right? If it is, if loyalty is more of
something that they recognize they have to earn from you
everyday and that they recognizethat you can take other
opportunities whenever you want or need to, that that you and,
(31:20):
and should grow, which means that you hopefully are not in
that position forever, right? So loyalty is something that you
have for that company because you feel invested in, because
they because they're investing in your future, even if that
means that you leave. That's that's the kind of
loyalty that I think is a sign of like a healthy work
(31:41):
environment, right. So to your point, Caitlin, a
sign that we're talking about weaponized loyalty is when
people leave and suddenly these people who they who were such a
such an important part of the workforce before are now like
(32:01):
suddenly very evil or awful or or just don't exist anymore.
Like you have to question, you have to question that work
environment. Absolutely, yeah.
And to to put it in the context of like personal relationships,
perhaps to to make this even more visceral is the the same
(32:22):
kind of red flag as when your partner does not accept any kind
of criticism and does very clearly does not want to be held
accountable. And of course, like in, in the
context of healthy relationships, like AI, you
know, I'll speak for myself. Like I, I not only want a
(32:45):
partner who does this, but I, I want to be this person as well
in personal relationships. If, if I do something wrong, I,
I do want to be called out on itor at least have an open
conversation about I could have handled this better.
I could have, you know, chosen my words better.
What, whatever this, the situation is, I, I'm not looking
(33:08):
to have like a peanut gallery, so to speak, in, in a partner.
And so in the same way, like, you know, we, we need to be open
to accountability. And for heaven's sakes, why
should this also not be applicable to leadership?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean, yeah, good leaders should be creating very clear
(33:29):
systems of accountability for themselves.
We also are in a time when leaders can get away with being
a little lazy or not being accountable because the job
market is so rough. So I do find myself having more
and more conversations with people that are like, yeah, this
job is not healthy for me. I, I am burnt out and I have to
(33:52):
stay. And I might even have to stay to
the end of getting a new degree or to the end of getting a new
training or certification. So often what we're talking
about is how do I survive a toxic work environment, not how
do I leave. But how do I?
Survive until I can leave. And, and so yes, it does start
(34:17):
with a little bit of grief and recognizing that not only is
this place not what I was hopingit would be, but I'm not who I
was hoping I could be in this place.
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I couldn't agree more
with you, Lindy, that, you know,we, I think it's incredibly
important to make space for thatgrief because in that
(34:41):
realization, it, it is very heavy and it can also feel very,
very isolating. And I feel like in some ways it
can also make us feel, I mean, for, for lack of a better word,
make us feel dumb. Like, you know, at the outside
of this opportunity, I thought it was going to be XY and Z.
And now this is, you know, turning out to be something that
(35:03):
is actively taking from my Wellness and, you know,
well-being. And it, it, I feel like one of
the automatic responses is the assumption that I put myself in
the situation, which, yeah. So I, I think the other part of
that grief process is to, you know, give ourselves some grace.
(35:24):
And because, you know, it's speaking personally, again, I
recognize that there, there are some things that I could have
done like in that work experience to better set myself
up for success or just be more aware of toxic things going on,
like as they made themselves known or present to me.
(35:49):
But we, we also have to, you know, treat ourselves with grace
and remember that like, hey, we didn't set up this environment.
We didn't, you know, set, set upthis space to, to be, to be
toxic. Yes, yeah.
Again, that that gaslighting canmake us.
This space relies on you thinking this is all your fault
in order to perpetuate itself. So I think, you know, it's
(36:13):
radical to say actually, like, this isn't my fault.
This is. This was established before I
got here and I think the other thing that I had to do and I and
I talk about this with folks in in these situations all the
time. In fact, I appreciate someone
sharing at one point I'm only. So let me back up and say, if we
(36:38):
are in these situations, that means that we're in a constant
state of fight or flight. We are constantly having to
think about, you know, talk about masking and code
switching. It's, it's a, it's a next step
to, to then start to think aboutwhat will get me in trouble,
right? Like what would get me fired?
(36:58):
What's going to put that target on my back?
What's going to get that microscope to, to be even more
focused on me? That's an exhausting process.
And that's on a good day, right?That's, that's just the, the day
today. That's not counting that the
meetings were maybe you're, you are being yelled at by your boss
(37:22):
in front of everyone, right? Or, or the when you're having
certain things demanded of you that that feel impossible, right
deadlines, whatever it might be.So an important first step is to
ask yourself truthfully, what can I give right now?
So going back to that 125%, oftentimes it's like all I have
(37:48):
in me is 60%. So the question then becomes how
can I only give my 60% and how can I fly under the radar?
So what people often find is that they're 125% was actually
far more than they needed to do.So the 60% they start to find
(38:09):
out is exactly the same amount that everyone else around them
is giving. And that's why they are in the
situation. I, I don't mean to victim blame,
but often times when one person's giving 125% and
everyone else is giving 60%, then yeah, they're going to be
working really hard and, and their work is going to be under
scrutiny simply because everyoneelse is working really hard to
(38:32):
make sure that, that they can not work very hard.
I don't know if what I'm saying makes sense, but so sometimes
it's OK. I need to be like everyone else
who's being aggressively mediocre and how do I do that?
And for how long can I get away with being aggressively mediocre
(38:52):
in a system that was built on megiving far too much?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I'm thinking
specifically of that scene in the movie big with Tom Hanks
where he goes into his first job.
And if I recall correctly, it's like a data entry clerk where
(39:13):
they're literally typing information into the computers.
And 1st day Tom Hanks like as a,a, you know, a literal child
sits down and he's, he's a fast typer.
And so he's tip typing away doing his job.
All right, I, I got this. I, I guess this is what adults
do. And Jon Lovitz peers over from
(39:34):
the next cubicle and he says, hey, hey, hey, what, what are
you doing? It's like what I'm, I'm just,
I'm just doing, doing what they told me.
Just slowly, slowly. You're trying to make us all
look bad. Like it's this is a, this is a
run out the clock situation. You're going to be doing this
every day. Yeah, yeah.
(39:56):
Don't, don't over deliver unlessyou want to over deliver every
time, which is just kind of goodadvice in general.
But yeah, so this sounds so defeatist, but that is exactly
what it is. It's I have been defeated by
this work environment. This is not where I want to be.
(40:16):
How can I survive until I get out?
And it starts with recognizing that if I'm in fight or flight
constantly. I've got like 2 hours of good
work in me a day and and that might only be 3 to 4 days out of
the week. Yeah.
Most, many jobs can kind of get away with that ratio.
(40:37):
And it's not until you're forcedto recognize that that you're
like, oh, actually that's probably what everyone else is
doing. And even as a therapist, I
remember distinctly going through a difficult time and
sitting with my therapist and saying, what do I do?
Like, I've got nothing to give. And she said to me, she's like
(41:00):
Wendy, you can just nod and smile as a therapist.
It. Was revolutionary.
And the the really humbling thing was when I had those days
when that's all I had to give and that's all I did, and people
had huge breakthroughs because Ijust got out of the way of the
(41:21):
work. That is so incredibly powerful,
Lindy. And honestly, in, in terms of
the workplace, it reminds me of like the 8020 rule, if you let
the other person do 80% of the talking and you know you're only
doing 20%. I mean, how much of the work
have you just offloaded? I mean, and especially,
(41:42):
especially when we talk about how much, how much of the mental
workload that women specificallyundertake all the time.
And Caitlin, that is usually themajority of the conversation I'm
having, especially with women, is why are you doing that work?
Why are you on 50 committees? Why are you receiving calls from
(42:08):
your boss out of work hours so that they can vent about
something? Why are you carrying the flag
for a certain cause at work whenit's not going anywhere and
you're being targeted for it? Oh, absolutely.
That's often. And that's where the grief comes
in, right? It's recognizing, oh, like, this
(42:28):
is actually not only a waste of my time and energy, but it's
causing active harm not just to me, but to others who might try
to take take this up with me. Yep.
So knowing when to step back andknowing to when to recognize
that this, this is the part of my job that I am I that I
(42:49):
shouldn't be doing anymore can be incredibly confronting.
Yeah, absolutely. And especially when we get to
those points where you know, what, whatever, whatever it is,
that's, that's the final straw. It's, I find it fascinating
because, and I'm, I'm sure you've experienced this in
sessions with, with clients and,you know, and career
(43:11):
conversations as well. The last straw is often a, a
very small thing. It's not some huge bombastic ask
made made of people in these situations, but it's a it's the
straw that broke the camel's back.
And to to digress with a a quickstory.
(43:33):
Personally, my my final last straw in to to make the
realization that I was not only in a toxic workplace, but also
one that I desperately wanted toleave as as quickly as possible
was when I was being micromanaged about a committee
(43:53):
that I was literally volunteering my time for and had
to was made to make the case that volunteering my personal
time towards this 'cause that I cared about and was a great
networking opportunity was #1 not going to detract from my
(44:13):
work and #2 was not going to interfere with other projects.
Talk about toxic. Yeah, Yeah.
So I think in in summary, Caitlin, you know, it's, it
starts with recognizing this environment is not healthy for
(44:37):
me. And it might, it might not even
be that it's a toxic work environment.
It's just not healthy for you for whatever reason, Right.
Yes. And it's OK to recognize that
and own that. And then making space for some
grief because if you've ever cared about that job or cared
(44:58):
about being a good employee or cared about your reputation,
you're probably going to feel some kind of way about that.
And then asking yourself, can I leave?
And for many people, the answer is no, not right away.
And kind of creating a plan, whether it's with a therapist or
(45:19):
that that safe person or a closefriend that you can trust with
confidentiality and who can kindof see things for what they are.
Coming up with a plan to either fly under the radar or offload
some work because you might recognize that your bandwidth is
far less than you once had. Ask yourself, where am I doing
(45:44):
work that I don't have to be doing?
Where can I be mediocre instead of excellent?
Where can I do B minus work instead of A plus work while you
are creating an exit strategy, and then when you're not at work
doing everything in your power to take care of yourself.
(46:07):
Yes, absolutely. And just a quick side note as
well for, for those listening, if, if you happen to be in this
situation right now and you're looking to form that exit
strategy and also find your support system that can help you
tolerate this, this situation just as long as you need to.
(46:31):
I, I would also caution, I mean,this kind of goes back to what
we're talking about with like making sure it's a trusted
person. But you know, be be very careful
about any indications that you make of any plans to leave a
company because those decisions can be can be made very quickly
and have lasting impacts on yourwork or, you know, even being
(46:55):
there sooner than then you're ready.
So I would definitely caution you to, you know, keep that
information close to the vest. Absolutely.
And we we talked about to your point, Caitlin, it's an
excellent, excellent point. There are times when the safe
people are simply not within thecompany, not within your
(47:17):
workspace, right? Like that you're saying people
might have just have to be outside of the workspace.
So I think, yes, recognizing this is not my family, this is
not, these are not my therapists, right?
Like I need to like, find placeswhere I can process that are
(47:40):
outside of the space and be very, very cautious about
sharing next steps or or any part of your experience that can
be used against you. Basically, yeah.
Absolutely, yeah. And I, I would definitely agree
that a lot of times those, thosepeople like exist outside of
(48:02):
the, the workplace or, you know,have to just by by dint of
association. But to go back to what you were
talking about previously in terms of just feeling that like
release of pressure of, you know, having, having to say the
thing out loud. Sometimes that in itself can
(48:25):
make the biggest difference of just sharing with somebody
again, that that is safe. I need to leave.
I need to leave the situation and to to go back to the
personal relationships dynamic as well.
Like I've, I have had some of the most poignant conversations
(48:45):
with dear friends of mine where that in itself was a huge part
of, you know, helping them to deal with, with the situation in
realizing that, yeah, I, I can'tleave this relationship right
now. Although I, I do recognize more
and more everyday that it is a toxic relationship that is
(49:08):
actively causing me mental, emotional, you know, any, any
form of harm. But I can't in, in this very
moment. But just saying that out loud
and sharing that with somebody makes the biggest difference.
Absolutely. So Caitlin, I appreciate your
time and your thoughts on this. This is this one feels a little
(49:29):
bit heavier because I do think there are a lot of people in
this situation and it's one thatI feel like doesn't get talked
about as much as like, just quitand find another job or, you
know, just leave. Often times the answer is I have
to stay. How do I survive this?
And so, yeah, please reach out to us if you find yourself in
(49:51):
situations like this and you're looking for some thoughts or,
you know, have shot, have thoughts that you want to share
with our listeners on ways that you've survived toxic work
environments that you couldn't leave yet while you were burned
out. We, we always love tools and,
and, and and survival tools thatwe can share with folks.
Absolutely. Yeah, we'd, we definitely
(50:13):
welcome those those comments andmaybe maybe even share for a
future episode, maybe some quitting stories because to to
quote Oscar from the Office, I love a good quitting story.
It makes me feel like I have more control of my own life.
(50:34):
I love that. So stay tuned.
We we hope to be able to offer some options for sharing with
each other. Well, Caitlin, when you're not
in the break room, where where can we find you?
You can find me at caitlintruehalla.com and also on
TikTok and Instagram at CreativeCaitlin or Creative dot Caitlin.
(50:57):
For anybody looking for support as a creative or wanting to
reconnect with innovation and also ideation, sessions that
help support that, as well as writers looking for support in
their book or manuscript projects.
You can always contact me there.And Lindy, how about you?
(51:18):
Where can people find you? You can find me on Instagram at
Lindy Larimore, Facebook Lindy Larimore, or at
lindylarimore.com. Reach out with any questions if
you need support in leaving a situation or trying to pivot in
your career. I am a certified career coach,
(51:40):
so I can help with this, but also, yeah, I'm also just kind
of a survivor of toxic work environment.
So you'll free and reach out andShare your story.
You can message me or plug yourself into my schedule.
And also at our our burnout break room on Instagram or
(52:02):
Facebook or Tiktok. We, we love YouTube as well.
Spotify. We we love hearing from folks.
Absolutely, yeah. So whether whether you want to
share stories of your toxic workplaces or how how you
extricated yourself from those situations, we would love to
(52:24):
hear from you and also support you in any way that we can.
But until next time, thanks for joining the Burnout break room.
Thanks. See you next time.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Wendy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:25):
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Hi Caitlin. Hello Lindy, how are you today?
(01:08):
I I am managing today at the time of this recording.
Unfortunately, the very lovely and lauded Dr. Jane Goodall has
passed and I'm feeling it. Yeah, she was important to you,
right? Very much so, yeah.
(01:29):
Ever since I was young, she was like one of my heroes.
And honestly, she was one of thefirst women in science that I
learned about and therefore kindof set the tone for, you know,
the the possibility of, you know, women in STEM and also
(01:51):
just in, I guess you would say ahigher academic settings.
So yeah, she was a big inspiration to me for sure.
Yeah, a huge loss to the world, into the scientific community
and absolutely groundbreaking the spaces that she was able to
be in and the work that she was able to do.
(02:13):
It's hard to lose. I think especially at times like
this, it's hard to lose women who have been the Trail Blazers
because I think I'm feeling the absence of strong female voices
right now in the world. I, I feel like they're, they're
being intentionally drowned out.I'm not saying they're not
(02:35):
there, They're definitely there.But I think there's so much like
other noise happening that it's,it's hard to see another big
presence being lost. I remember being particularly
affected when Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away and the
timing of her loss and how it just felt like it.
It just felt like there was symbolism there.
(02:56):
And I don't think that was wrongat the time.
Like, I think just knowing that she was gone and the timing just
felt particularly poignant. And there's something about this
loss that feels that way, too. Yeah, most definitely it it
feels like a collective loss forsure.
And I couldn't agree with you more like those because the the
(03:18):
other voices that have, you know, been an ongoing part in
important advocacy are still there.
But it definitely feels like there's so much work being done
to, to drown them out or to to silence them.
I've read some of Greta Tunberg's works as well.
And in very much the the same way.
(03:41):
It's, it's like that reminder that everyone can make a
difference. And I mean, even reading her
speeches from, you know, such a young age, it's, it's so, so
it's so inspiring. So I, I feel like the, the other
part of this Lindy is like, yes,we, we can recognize important
people in our lives and inspirational figures, but it's
(04:05):
the, these things are more than just one person, you know, And
remembering that it is the, the collective that comes together
to, to make a difference. But those collectives can start
with one person. Yes, there's often the person
who says the thing that no one else is saying who inspires
(04:28):
others or does the thing that that no one else is doing right.
And it can sometimes be the samething or two different things,
right? So then they then they inspire
everyone else to to come along and to join.
So if you're one of those people, we see you, we
appreciate you. We know that that's exhausting
work because often times they'realso the recipients of the the
(04:51):
backlash and that can be exhausting.
So yeah, if you have something to say that feels important, say
it and and find some good community.
Definitely. I feel like the other side of
that too is grief can take many forms and sometimes even just
recognizing it can be like a, a sense of relief.
(05:14):
But yeah, it's it's difficult toto be that person, to make waves
and push back against these, these big systems and the
mentalities of like, this is theway that we've always done it
kind of thing. And sometimes we do that just by
recognizing that, you know, the the job we're in or the the
(05:37):
working situation we're in is not working for us anymore.
It's so good that you use the term grief there because I do
think there is a grief when whenyou recognize that you are in a
relationship that's no longer serving you.
And that's exactly what a job is, right?
You're in relationship with yourjob and there is this moment in
(06:03):
burnout work, you know, as a burnout coach and as a therapist
who works with folks in burnout.I don't know that I've said out
loud that most of the time the work that we're doing is not,
this is how you leave the toxic job situation.
It's this is how you survive thetoxic job situation until you
(06:25):
can get out in a way that does more good than harm, right?
It actually reminds me a little bit of the work that I've done
with survivors of domestic violence, which might sound
extreme and it's not exactly thesame thing, let me be clear.
(06:45):
But there is an element of the moment between this relationship
is unhealthy for me and being free of that relationship can
sometimes take years for some folks.
And it's often this kind of backand forth, like, well, maybe
maybe I'm just overreacting. Maybe if I just am a little more
(07:09):
quiet or, or, you know, maybe ifI wasn't so difficult to work
with, you know, etcetera, then then maybe this would work out
better. And there's often that kind of,
I see this both with folks in toxic relationships and with
folks in toxic work environments.
Both situations require a lot ofgas lighting to keep.
(07:29):
Yes. Oh my gosh.
Yes. Mm hmm.
And boy, is gaslighting a powerful thing.
Yes, Oh my gosh, you are so incredibly on the nose with this
Lindy. And yes, I do agree with you
that obviously there are nuancesbetween these two situations,
but your work life is absolutelya relationship.
(07:53):
Like we have relationship with our jobs in general.
And then, you know, also you're working relationships with your
colleagues too. Because as I'm sure everybody
has experience, there's always one person in a workplace that
in one form or another makes everyone's day more difficult.
And I, I mean, I feel like one of the most empowering things
(08:17):
that we can do for ourselves in both personal relationships and
our work settings is recognize in any and all of the ways that
being complacent or just accepting those situations as
they are serve either the systemor the other person.
(08:38):
And Caitlin, I here's here's to your point.
Here is a moment that is really difficult when it comes to
recognizing I'm in a toxic work situation.
I can't afford to leave yet, whether it's because I can't,
you know, the the job market is difficult right now.
(08:59):
So I can't just quit my job right until I have something
else lined up? Right.
And for many people, they need to have something lined up that
pays something similar, right? Or they can, they might want to
take a pay cut, but they need tohave something else to
supplement, right? So that takes time, especially
in a tough job market. But sometimes the conversation
(09:19):
I'm having, and this is a difficult one, is yes, you work
in a toxic environment. Whether it's because you are
being treated differently and unfairly because of some kind of
identity that you carry or leadership is just failing right
(09:40):
now. They're just not stepping up to
the plate and therefore things are a hot dumpster fire.
Whatever it is. Sometimes the really awful truth
that comes out of that is I'm going to have to put up with
this and not do a damn thing about it.
(10:02):
And that is such a difficult moment.
And that usually comes after, you know, I've tried to talk to
my supervisor, I've tried to talk to Co workers, I've, I've
tried to address it in all of the professional and appropriate
ways and sometimes even like unprofessional and inappropriate
ways. Maybe I've even gone to HR
(10:23):
right? Like it's, it's after all of
those options have been visited and you recognize that really
awful moment when it's like, oh,this is, this is what's
happening. Got it.
So it's a it's choosing to give up and fail, but knowing you
(10:45):
can't leave yet can be a really tough.
Moment yeah, no absolutely. And especially for one of the
things that we've talked about previously is the kind of
burnout that happens when you'renot aligned with your
principles. And I mean, I've, I feel like so
many people have experienced it in, in that way, especially like
(11:07):
I think it was a couple of yearsago now the, the trend, you
know, on social media talking about like act your wage and
like revolutionary idea of quietquitting.
And you have people in, in leadership that are there.
There's so much conversation that happened after the fact,
like why is this happening? And how, how do we counteract
(11:29):
it? Because we, we don't want people
to be doing the bare minimum. But it's, it's not, you know,
from, from a worker standpoint, it's, it's not wanting to do
the, the bare minimum. It, it is a reaction to an
impossible situation. People have exhausted their
options. They've gone to HR, they've, you
(11:50):
know, tried dealing with poor situations that make these toxic
work situations unbearable. They've done everything that
they can and in so many situations, they're, they're not
heard or paid attention to and ultimately there is no solution.
And so that realization that you're talking about that this
(12:12):
is something that I'm just goingto have to put up with it.
It is a form of grief because you then every day you come into
work, you know what you're goingto be met with.
You know that it's going to, it's going to require more of
your energy both, you know, mental, emotional, spiritual,
physical energy, every, everything and a bag of potato
(12:35):
chips. Well, and Caitlin, there's there
is this other category that happens too, which is like they
have spoken up, they have said something and now they're being
targeted or intentionally left off of things.
Or maybe they were flying under the radar before and now there's
(12:59):
now everyone's paying attention to their work and maybe even
this feeling like, oh, you're you, you're really waiting for
me to mess up here. Because I've become a flying the
ointment, I've become a disruptor.
I've been, I've been identified as someone as a threat to the
system in some ways and that it's not always that situation,
(13:22):
but it can be. And so part of the work that I
do as a therapist who specializes in burnout or as a
burnout coach is sitting with folks as they are in that
situation. And I think part of the grief
that I see is often times folks who are in that situation are
(13:43):
some of the hardest workers there.
They are the people who have been giving 125% since day one
and it is not until they've hit this wall where they're like, if
I continue to give 125%, I'm going to be punished 185%.
Yep. And I will be too visible and it
(14:05):
will be used against me and I. I know this might even sound
paranoid or but I have a feelingthis will resonate some folks.
Like I need to start being invisible and mediocre in order
to survive this work until I canget out in a Safeway.
Which is again, very similar to domestic violence work, right?
(14:29):
We talked about Gray rocking in in when when being in
relationship with with toxic folks.
The idea of being the grayest rock in the room, the most
boring person in the room. I will say, Caitlin, one of the
best, some of the best advice that I got when I was in a
(14:50):
situation similar to that was talk as if you're reading out of
a textbook on good business practice or talk as if you're
reading out of a textbook on leadership.
So it's not like you're trying to be creative.
It's not trying like you're trying to reinvent the wheel.
You are just trying to almost be, it's like almost robotic and
(15:13):
uninteresting as possible in order to get through the other
side. And for those who have given a
lot to their jobs, who have tried to create a better world
for the people there, that is absolutely a huge loss.
(15:34):
Absolutely. And I just want to call out one
of the things that you mentionedbefore as well is coming to that
realization that you are being targeted at work and having that
reaction or assumption, you know, am, am I being paranoid?
And, and the self questioning that follows that is a direct
(15:55):
result of the same kind of gaslighting that we were talking
about earlier. But in in these situations, you
really have to listen to your gut instinct, listen to your
intuition. If something doesn't feel right,
it's it doesn't feel right for areason.
And of course, I, I understand that this, this in a lot of
(16:18):
situations can be a lot to ask, to just simply listen to your
intuition. Because when, when we find
ourselves in these spaces, either in like bad relationships
or in a toxic work environment, they, they are so often the
product of, it's somewhat morbid, but you know, the, the
(16:39):
phrase like death by 1000 cuts. Because of course, if these
situations were as toxic as theyare, you know, several years or
what have you down the road on day one, of course it'd be
raising, you know, red flags allover the place.
But this, this is how we learn to identify, you know, the
environments and the situations and the people that don't work
(17:01):
for us or that actively don't have our best interest at heart.
That's, that's one of the ways in, in which we learn.
And so, yeah, I know it's, it's not an easy thing to do to just
just trust your intuition. But this is a whole process of
relearning to to listen to that gut instinct for for yourself.
(17:24):
Absolutely. One of the most effective ways
to beat someone down is to get them to stop trusting their
guts. And so something that can be
very effective when recognizing,oh, I no longer can trust, feel
like I can trust my gut is to. And I think this is extremely
(17:46):
important in any toxic situation, whether it's a
relationship or work, is to findyour safe people.
And there's always one or two. There's always one or two.
And know what's safe to share because then you can go to those
people and say, Hey, like, I, I feel like I'm in this, this
(18:07):
weird situation. Is it OK if I pass this by you
and get your perspective on whether or not this is me
overreacting, This is me, you know, not trusting my gut or
this is me responding to a bad situation?
And so, you know, find those people that can be your sounding
(18:28):
boards and even share with them that like, it's extremely
important that you not share this with anyone.
It's extremely important that this conversation remain
confidential and, you know, see to which level they are, they
are comfortable with that, and if they're not comfortable with
that, let you know. Honor that, respect it, but find
your safe people so that you canuse them as a sounding board if
(18:51):
you feel that you are experiencing some form of gas
lighting. Absolutely.
And Lindy, this, this is amazingadvice.
And and also going back to Gray rocking, as you were talking
about before, like become the most uninteresting person in in
the room in order to, to fly under the, the radar.
But I feel like this ties in beautifully to what you're
(19:14):
talking about too, Because when,when you start to become
invisible and blend into the background, you can also take in
a lot more information about howother people act.
And so in the same way, one of the easiest ways to determine
people who at least have the potential to be trustworthy is
(19:36):
observing not just who they talkto, but what they talk about.
So for example, people that talka lot about others, even if it's
not necessarily in a gossipy way.
I mean, that's, that's your red flag right there.
So, you know, there's, if they're comfortable sharing
information about other people or other situations, you know,
(19:56):
even if it's just for their own benefit of being the person in
the room that has a story. Then yeah, that's probably not a
safe person to share that with. And I know we've mentioned it a
little bit in other episodes as well, even when it comes to
finding friends in the workplacesometimes as a result of trauma
(20:17):
bonding from these situations. So obviously in an ideal world,
we can, you know, make workplacefriendships without having to to
trauma bond, but at least those that can be a potential, you
know, good situation to come outof it.
So I, I, I want to almost do a little recapping because I do
(20:40):
think we're, we're, you know, not, not every episode is about
like giving advice, but I, we've, we've talked about like,
if you recognize that you're feeling under a microscope, it's
OK to be the Gray rock. It's OK to be uninteresting and
you might need to fly under the radar and that's OK.
Next piece of advice is find your safe person.
(21:03):
There's another thing that you in, in that Caitlin, that you
highlighted that I, that I want to bring forward.
That was actually really, reallyimportant for me when I felt
overwhelmed in a situation and, and over my head.
So this is specific to me, but maybe somebody needs to hear
this. Before I found out I had ADHD,
(21:26):
one of the symptoms that I experienced, and this is a
symptom of ADHD that was that that was quite disruptive to my
early days of leadership was I would have this thing that I
felt like I needed to say that was like burning inside of me.
And it was actually really uncomfortable for me to just sit
with it. And so, and especially if I was
(21:50):
in a situation that made me feelanxious.
So and sometimes it was because it needed to be set or like
there was AI had a solution to aproblem where I was recognizing
a problem that no one else was recognizing.
But part of that with ADHD is it's actually like really
physically uncomfortable to kindof hold it in.
(22:12):
So there was a moment where likethat tendency or urge helped me
because then I had a, a little more nerve, right, to like just
kind of say something in a Zoom meeting when we suddenly
everyone was on Zoom, right? And I think a lot of people that
found that very overwhelming, like I don't know how to act on
(22:34):
Zoom suddenly. And I just was like, I guess
I'll talk now, right? But there was a, there was also
a lot of times when I probably didn't need to say anything
because a, there's this thing where you say something and
suddenly that means you're volunteering for something.
You didn't mean to volunteer. So when you have the good idea,
(22:56):
suddenly you're in charge of thegood idea, right?
Yes. Oh my gosh.
So in the best of times, like, ask yourself before you unmute
or raise your hand or jump into a conversation, do I want to be
in charge of this project? But then, you know, as time went
on and I found myself more and more in situations where
(23:18):
speaking up might have put me ina precarious situation, perhaps
it really helped to hear someonesay to me, Lindy, it's OK if you
don't say it out loud. Like, it's OK to just not say
anything, right? Which for some people might be
like, yeah, no kidding, right? I needed to hear that.
(23:38):
I needed to hear, like, Lindy, it's OK for you to just kind of
keep your mouth shut, which sounds so awful and like, I
don't know, like, I would never say that to a woman, but I
needed to hear that, if that makes sense.
Like. So I think the advice that I
would give is before you say anything when you are in
(23:59):
situations like this, pause and ask yourself, how can this you
be used against me? Yeah.
Is this going to put a target onmy back?
Yes, exactly. And if so, it's probably not
worth saying even if it's the best idea in the room sometimes,
because it's the best idea in the room and puts a target on
(24:20):
your back. Yes, absolutely.
And I'm, I'm thinking immediately, Lindy, of like the
the 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene, which let, let me just
do a small asterisk on that. I personally do not agree with
most of the principles outlined in that book.
(24:42):
However, I, I do think it is good information to know,
especially in these situations, because the principles are
followed by a lot of the systemsand the people in power in these
spaces. So we certainly don't have to
live our lives by these principles, but it is good to
(25:03):
know. And the one that you're
reminding me of the most is the number one rule in these 48 laws
of power is don't outshine the master, which is so fucking
bonkers in my opinion. Like we we.
(25:23):
You really mean to tell me that any organization is only going
to thrive if we all tiptoe around the CE OS ego?
No thank you. No thank you.
So part of the advice is recognize when your CEO or
supervisor or manager or director requires you to walk on
(25:46):
egg shells. Like that's really important
information to know if they, if they are uncomfortable with
being outshined, yes, probably don't be there.
But to our point, that's often not an immediate solution.
Yeah, absolutely. And the before I forget the
(26:08):
other thing that I want to mention as well, because this
was a huge part of my experiencein not only realizing that I was
burnt out, but in in a toxic situation that I wasn't able to
leave immediately in in the workplace.
Is that horrible sinking feelingof, oh shit, 9095% of my network
(26:33):
is in this workplace and so therefore I didn't recognize
that I wasn't doing the work to expand and nurture and, you
know, develop my network outsideof this environment.
And Caitlin, you, you're, you'rereminding me actually of
(26:54):
something that was a red flag and an indication that I was in
a toxic workplace and I didn't recognize it as such right away.
When a workplace views networking as a threat.
So specifically, like I always loved one of the things I loved
about doing startup work was it often requires a lot of
(27:17):
networking. It requires a lot of getting to
know other people in the area, other people that are doing
similar work. I love doing that.
I love setting up relationships in the community and getting our
name out there and being able togo to schools and 1st responders
and you know, other people providing similar services and
(27:37):
setting up these relationships. One of my most favorite things
about start up work, when I wentto an organization that was
fully established and they didn't understand why I wanted
to continue that work, it was a sign that I was in a toxic work
environment. I just didn't see it as such.
And because there was this idea that was like, well, why would
(28:00):
we go outside of our own environment?
We have all the answers. We're doing it right.
We don't need to like be bothered with creating
relationships outside of ourselves.
So I would say, yes, networking is so important for the reasons
we're talking about, but also ifthat is viewed as threatening,
(28:22):
that's a red flag that you mightbe in a toxic environment.
Huge. Absolutely.
And I just want to expand on on that too.
It's especially in terms of identifying red flags, 11 red
flag that absolutely flew under the radar for me at the, at the
start of like being in this particular environment was not
(28:45):
just an environment seeing networking as a threat, but as I
saw, you know, people transitionout of the company and go on to
do other things specifically like how those interactions were
manifested on LinkedIn. Just just as one example is the
(29:09):
the treatment of those people. As soon as you leave the, the
company, it's like you're, you're dead to all the people in
that network. There's no more engagement
whatsoever. It's they're they're outsiders
now. And so it's like that, that us
and them mentality. And in this way, I think to, I
(29:32):
guess like put a specific perspective on it or like one,
one of the ways this red flag ismanifested is the mentality in a
workplace that I mean, if I'm to, to use the dreaded F word
and say that we're, we're like afamily.
But but again that that us and them mentality of our our unity
(29:55):
is solely based on keeping everybody in the house,
necessarily so. Here here is a sign that you
were in a toxic work environment.
Weaponized loyalty. We are, I think, I think this is
a societal thing. I think we're in a society that
(30:15):
values loyalty. And maybe I'm getting it wrong,
but loyalty can actually be it'sit's often viewed as a positive
and it can be, but only if it's allowed to be questioned.
And loyalty is a is a tricky subject because companies rely
(30:36):
on it not only in their brandingand their PR, but also in order
to keep folks working there. But loyalty should be something
that is earned, not expected, not transactional.
It's. Not transactional.
So if loyalty is treated like something that the company or
your your leaders should just get by virtue of just being the
(31:00):
company and the leaders, then that's that's kind of a red flag
for toxicity, right? If it is, if loyalty is more of
something that they recognize they have to earn from you
everyday and that they recognizethat you can take other
opportunities whenever you want or need to, that that you and,
(31:20):
and should grow, which means that you hopefully are not in
that position forever, right? So loyalty is something that you
have for that company because you feel invested in, because
they because they're investing in your future, even if that
means that you leave. That's that's the kind of
loyalty that I think is a sign of like a healthy work
(31:41):
environment, right. So to your point, Caitlin, a
sign that we're talking about weaponized loyalty is when
people leave and suddenly these people who they who were such a
such an important part of the workforce before are now like
(32:01):
suddenly very evil or awful or or just don't exist anymore.
Like you have to question, you have to question that work
environment. Absolutely, yeah.
And to to put it in the context of like personal relationships,
perhaps to to make this even more visceral is the the same
(32:22):
kind of red flag as when your partner does not accept any kind
of criticism and does very clearly does not want to be held
accountable. And of course, like in, in the
context of healthy relationships, like AI, you
know, I'll speak for myself. Like I, I not only want a
(32:45):
partner who does this, but I, I want to be this person as well
in personal relationships. If, if I do something wrong, I,
I do want to be called out on itor at least have an open
conversation about I could have handled this better.
I could have, you know, chosen my words better.
What, whatever this, the situation is, I, I'm not looking
(33:08):
to have like a peanut gallery, so to speak, in, in a partner.
And so in the same way, like, you know, we, we need to be open
to accountability. And for heaven's sakes, why
should this also not be applicable to leadership?
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I mean, yeah, good leaders should be creating very clear
(33:29):
systems of accountability for themselves.
We also are in a time when leaders can get away with being
a little lazy or not being accountable because the job
market is so rough. So I do find myself having more
and more conversations with people that are like, yeah, this
job is not healthy for me. I, I am burnt out and I have to
(33:52):
stay. And I might even have to stay to
the end of getting a new degree or to the end of getting a new
training or certification. So often what we're talking
about is how do I survive a toxic work environment, not how
do I leave. But how do I?
Survive until I can leave. And, and so yes, it does start
(34:17):
with a little bit of grief and recognizing that not only is
this place not what I was hopingit would be, but I'm not who I
was hoping I could be in this place.
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I couldn't agree more
with you, Lindy, that, you know,we, I think it's incredibly
important to make space for thatgrief because in that
(34:41):
realization, it, it is very heavy and it can also feel very,
very isolating. And I feel like in some ways it
can also make us feel, I mean, for, for lack of a better word,
make us feel dumb. Like, you know, at the outside
of this opportunity, I thought it was going to be XY and Z.
And now this is, you know, turning out to be something that
(35:03):
is actively taking from my Wellness and, you know,
well-being. And it, it, I feel like one of
the automatic responses is the assumption that I put myself in
the situation, which, yeah. So I, I think the other part of
that grief process is to, you know, give ourselves some grace.
(35:24):
And because, you know, it's speaking personally, again, I
recognize that there, there are some things that I could have
done like in that work experience to better set myself
up for success or just be more aware of toxic things going on,
like as they made themselves known or present to me.
(35:49):
But we, we also have to, you know, treat ourselves with grace
and remember that like, hey, we didn't set up this environment.
We didn't, you know, set, set upthis space to, to be, to be
toxic. Yes, yeah.
Again, that that gaslighting canmake us.
This space relies on you thinking this is all your fault
in order to perpetuate itself. So I think, you know, it's
(36:13):
radical to say actually, like, this isn't my fault.
This is. This was established before I
got here and I think the other thing that I had to do and I and
I talk about this with folks in in these situations all the
time. In fact, I appreciate someone
sharing at one point I'm only. So let me back up and say, if we
(36:38):
are in these situations, that means that we're in a constant
state of fight or flight. We are constantly having to
think about, you know, talk about masking and code
switching. It's, it's a, it's a next step
to, to then start to think aboutwhat will get me in trouble,
right? Like what would get me fired?
(36:58):
What's going to put that target on my back?
What's going to get that microscope to, to be even more
focused on me? That's an exhausting process.
And that's on a good day, right?That's, that's just the, the day
today. That's not counting that the
meetings were maybe you're, you are being yelled at by your boss
(37:22):
in front of everyone, right? Or, or the when you're having
certain things demanded of you that that feel impossible, right
deadlines, whatever it might be.So an important first step is to
ask yourself truthfully, what can I give right now?
So going back to that 125%, oftentimes it's like all I have
(37:48):
in me is 60%. So the question then becomes how
can I only give my 60% and how can I fly under the radar?
So what people often find is that they're 125% was actually
far more than they needed to do.So the 60% they start to find
(38:09):
out is exactly the same amount that everyone else around them
is giving. And that's why they are in the
situation. I, I don't mean to victim blame,
but often times when one person's giving 125% and
everyone else is giving 60%, then yeah, they're going to be
working really hard and, and their work is going to be under
scrutiny simply because everyoneelse is working really hard to
(38:32):
make sure that, that they can not work very hard.
I don't know if what I'm saying makes sense, but so sometimes
it's OK. I need to be like everyone else
who's being aggressively mediocre and how do I do that?
And for how long can I get away with being aggressively mediocre
(38:52):
in a system that was built on megiving far too much?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's, I'm thinking
specifically of that scene in the movie big with Tom Hanks
where he goes into his first job.
And if I recall correctly, it's like a data entry clerk where
(39:13):
they're literally typing information into the computers.
And 1st day Tom Hanks like as a,a, you know, a literal child
sits down and he's, he's a fast typer.
And so he's tip typing away doing his job.
All right, I, I got this. I, I guess this is what adults
do. And Jon Lovitz peers over from
(39:34):
the next cubicle and he says, hey, hey, hey, what, what are
you doing? It's like what I'm, I'm just,
I'm just doing, doing what they told me.
Just slowly, slowly. You're trying to make us all
look bad. Like it's this is a, this is a
run out the clock situation. You're going to be doing this
every day. Yeah, yeah.
(39:56):
Don't, don't over deliver unlessyou want to over deliver every
time, which is just kind of goodadvice in general.
But yeah, so this sounds so defeatist, but that is exactly
what it is. It's I have been defeated by
this work environment. This is not where I want to be.
(40:16):
How can I survive until I get out?
And it starts with recognizing that if I'm in fight or flight
constantly. I've got like 2 hours of good
work in me a day and and that might only be 3 to 4 days out of
the week. Yeah.
Most, many jobs can kind of get away with that ratio.
(40:37):
And it's not until you're forcedto recognize that that you're
like, oh, actually that's probably what everyone else is
doing. And even as a therapist, I
remember distinctly going through a difficult time and
sitting with my therapist and saying, what do I do?
Like, I've got nothing to give. And she said to me, she's like
(41:00):
Wendy, you can just nod and smile as a therapist.
It. Was revolutionary.
And the the really humbling thing was when I had those days
when that's all I had to give and that's all I did, and people
had huge breakthroughs because Ijust got out of the way of the
(41:21):
work. That is so incredibly powerful,
Lindy. And honestly, in, in terms of
the workplace, it reminds me of like the 8020 rule, if you let
the other person do 80% of the talking and you know you're only
doing 20%. I mean, how much of the work
have you just offloaded? I mean, and especially,
(41:42):
especially when we talk about how much, how much of the mental
workload that women specificallyundertake all the time.
And Caitlin, that is usually themajority of the conversation I'm
having, especially with women, is why are you doing that work?
Why are you on 50 committees? Why are you receiving calls from
(42:08):
your boss out of work hours so that they can vent about
something? Why are you carrying the flag
for a certain cause at work whenit's not going anywhere and
you're being targeted for it? Oh, absolutely.
That's often. And that's where the grief comes
in, right? It's recognizing, oh, like, this
(42:28):
is actually not only a waste of my time and energy, but it's
causing active harm not just to me, but to others who might try
to take take this up with me. Yep.
So knowing when to step back andknowing to when to recognize
that this, this is the part of my job that I am I that I
(42:49):
shouldn't be doing anymore can be incredibly confronting.
Yeah, absolutely. And especially when we get to
those points where you know, what, whatever, whatever it is,
that's, that's the final straw. It's, I find it fascinating
because, and I'm, I'm sure you've experienced this in
sessions with, with clients and,you know, and career
(43:11):
conversations as well. The last straw is often a, a
very small thing. It's not some huge bombastic ask
made made of people in these situations, but it's a it's the
straw that broke the camel's back.
And to to digress with a a quickstory.
(43:33):
Personally, my my final last straw in to to make the
realization that I was not only in a toxic workplace, but also
one that I desperately wanted toleave as as quickly as possible
was when I was being micromanaged about a committee
(43:53):
that I was literally volunteering my time for and had
to was made to make the case that volunteering my personal
time towards this 'cause that I cared about and was a great
networking opportunity was #1 not going to detract from my
(44:13):
work and #2 was not going to interfere with other projects.
Talk about toxic. Yeah, Yeah.
So I think in in summary, Caitlin, you know, it's, it
starts with recognizing this environment is not healthy for
(44:37):
me. And it might, it might not even
be that it's a toxic work environment.
It's just not healthy for you for whatever reason, Right.
Yes. And it's OK to recognize that
and own that. And then making space for some
grief because if you've ever cared about that job or cared
(44:58):
about being a good employee or cared about your reputation,
you're probably going to feel some kind of way about that.
And then asking yourself, can I leave?
And for many people, the answer is no, not right away.
And kind of creating a plan, whether it's with a therapist or
(45:19):
that that safe person or a closefriend that you can trust with
confidentiality and who can kindof see things for what they are.
Coming up with a plan to either fly under the radar or offload
some work because you might recognize that your bandwidth is
far less than you once had. Ask yourself, where am I doing
(45:44):
work that I don't have to be doing?
Where can I be mediocre instead of excellent?
Where can I do B minus work instead of A plus work while you
are creating an exit strategy, and then when you're not at work
doing everything in your power to take care of yourself.
(46:07):
Yes, absolutely. And just a quick side note as
well for, for those listening, if, if you happen to be in this
situation right now and you're looking to form that exit
strategy and also find your support system that can help you
tolerate this, this situation just as long as you need to.
(46:31):
I, I would also caution, I mean,this kind of goes back to what
we're talking about with like making sure it's a trusted
person. But you know, be be very careful
about any indications that you make of any plans to leave a
company because those decisions can be can be made very quickly
and have lasting impacts on yourwork or, you know, even being
(46:55):
there sooner than then you're ready.
So I would definitely caution you to, you know, keep that
information close to the vest. Absolutely.
And we we talked about to your point, Caitlin, it's an
excellent, excellent point. There are times when the safe
people are simply not within thecompany, not within your
(47:17):
workspace, right? Like that you're saying people
might have just have to be outside of the workspace.
So I think, yes, recognizing this is not my family, this is
not, these are not my therapists, right?
Like I need to like, find placeswhere I can process that are
(47:40):
outside of the space and be very, very cautious about
sharing next steps or or any part of your experience that can
be used against you. Basically, yeah.
Absolutely, yeah. And I, I would definitely agree
that a lot of times those, thosepeople like exist outside of
(48:02):
the, the workplace or, you know,have to just by by dint of
association. But to go back to what you were
talking about previously in terms of just feeling that like
release of pressure of, you know, having, having to say the
thing out loud. Sometimes that in itself can
(48:25):
make the biggest difference of just sharing with somebody
again, that that is safe. I need to leave.
I need to leave the situation and to to go back to the
personal relationships dynamic as well.
Like I've, I have had some of the most poignant conversations
(48:45):
with dear friends of mine where that in itself was a huge part
of, you know, helping them to deal with, with the situation in
realizing that, yeah, I, I can'tleave this relationship right
now. Although I, I do recognize more
and more everyday that it is a toxic relationship that is
(49:08):
actively causing me mental, emotional, you know, any, any
form of harm. But I can't in, in this very
moment. But just saying that out loud
and sharing that with somebody makes the biggest difference.
Absolutely. So Caitlin, I appreciate your
time and your thoughts on this. This is this one feels a little
(49:29):
bit heavier because I do think there are a lot of people in
this situation and it's one thatI feel like doesn't get talked
about as much as like, just quitand find another job or, you
know, just leave. Often times the answer is I have
to stay. How do I survive this?
And so, yeah, please reach out to us if you find yourself in
(49:51):
situations like this and you're looking for some thoughts or,
you know, have shot, have thoughts that you want to share
with our listeners on ways that you've survived toxic work
environments that you couldn't leave yet while you were burned
out. We, we always love tools and,
and, and and survival tools thatwe can share with folks.
Absolutely. Yeah, we'd, we definitely
(50:13):
welcome those those comments andmaybe maybe even share for a
future episode, maybe some quitting stories because to to
quote Oscar from the Office, I love a good quitting story.
It makes me feel like I have more control of my own life.
(50:34):
I love that. So stay tuned.
We we hope to be able to offer some options for sharing with
each other. Well, Caitlin, when you're not
in the break room, where where can we find you?
You can find me at caitlintruehalla.com and also on
TikTok and Instagram at CreativeCaitlin or Creative dot Caitlin.
(50:57):
For anybody looking for support as a creative or wanting to
reconnect with innovation and also ideation, sessions that
help support that, as well as writers looking for support in
their book or manuscript projects.
You can always contact me there.And Lindy, how about you?
(51:18):
Where can people find you? You can find me on Instagram at
Lindy Larimore, Facebook Lindy Larimore, or at
lindylarimore.com. Reach out with any questions if
you need support in leaving a situation or trying to pivot in
your career. I am a certified career coach,
(51:40):
so I can help with this, but also, yeah, I'm also just kind
of a survivor of toxic work environment.
So you'll free and reach out andShare your story.
You can message me or plug yourself into my schedule.
And also at our our burnout break room on Instagram or
(52:02):
Facebook or Tiktok. We, we love YouTube as well.
Spotify. We we love hearing from folks.
Absolutely, yeah. So whether whether you want to
share stories of your toxic workplaces or how how you
extricated yourself from those situations, we would love to
(52:24):
hear from you and also support you in any way that we can.
But until next time, thanks for joining the Burnout break room.
Thanks. See you next time.
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