September 22, 2025 ⢠59 mins
đą Are there parts of your business marketing that feel exhausting? This week, Caitlan and Lyndie talk with Deborah C Smith to learn how we can escape from the marketing hustle and gain the freedom to promote your most purposeful work authentically.
đ¸ Deborah C Smith is a 'holistic' business coach, marketing strategist and host of the Mindset to Market podcast. With close to two decades of experience and success as an entrepreneur, she serves her clients by helping them envision their unique path to consistent recurring revenue and getting past any challenges with the "techie stuff". Her mission is to help ambitious solopreneurs build simple systems inside their business that allow them to grow their impact, and income while living more of their lives offline!Â
Connect with her on Instagram @deborah_smith_coaching
đ Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book and on a hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at â â https://caitlantrewhella.com/ â â
đ Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach, licensed Therapist, and Consultant and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:27):
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. Hey Lindy, how you doing?
Hi Caitlin. I'm doing good.
I'm doing good. I feel like I'm getting every
last little drip of summer before I go into my like get
under my blanket for several months mode.
(00:51):
It's pre hibernation prep like squeezing the last bits of
sunshine out of out of summer. And as a as a vitamin D
deficient friend, I feel that. But I have to say I and also
because I'm not as much of A summer person, I am so excited
(01:16):
for autumn and Halloween. Personally, winter is my
favorite season, but we're we'regetting there.
So I'm enjoying the transition. I'm trying to get in all my bike
rides before I have to like hangmy bike up for for the the AC
(01:36):
months. That's what I'm going to do
right after this. But yeah, yeah, I have to say
I'm in Massachusetts. It has been the most gorgeous
end of summer I've ever experienced, so I feel so
grateful. I just try to be outside every
moment that I can get. So if I ever complain about the
(01:58):
weather, I try to also be aware that there are some beautiful
days and take advantage and takecare of my holistic self.
Which brings me to our wonderfulguest today.
We are so excited to have Deborah C Smith.
(02:21):
She's a holistic business coach,marketing strategist, and host
of the Mindset to Market podcast.
Deborah helps her clients breakthrough limiting beliefs
and create a life of abundance by harnessing the power of
atomic daily habits and sustainable business practices,
(02:41):
including even the simplest shift in mindset.
Her mission is to help ambitioussolopreneurs build simple
systems inside their business that allows them to grow their
impact and income while living more of their lives offline.
Deborah, that sounds so exciting.
(03:02):
I, I have to say, as a solopreneur myself, I was not at
all prepared for how online there's I'm expected to be.
So please tell us about yourself, about your work, and
maybe what brought you to to your work.
Hi, Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think everyone,
(03:24):
everyone working in the online space in any capacity right now
feels a little bit burned out byit.
I don't think any, even even people whose job is influencer,
that's all they do, right? Because chronically being online
is there's a lot going on. It can be, it can be mentally,
physically, emotionally exhausting.
(03:46):
And you know, ever since social media became the thing that it
is in our world, there has been this, I think mythology around
how to market your offers and how to be a business in the
world that it's necessary, required.
And you know, you're not going to make it if you don't have
like a big social media following or something like
(04:08):
that. And having been in business for
a long time and seen all the same stalwart marketing
principles, and the things that have always worked work.
Every single time there's a new piece of technology, every time
we level up and there's new waysto do things, the same things
are always true. Have a really solid quality
offer that delivers real resultsfor real human beings at a price
(04:33):
point that makes sense and tell really good stories to get
people to understand that you'rethe person that can help them.
Like that stays the same no matter if we're online, offline,
you know, no matter how you set up your funnel to attract new
clients or to do sales. So you can be chronically online
and do all the things, but you can also not do that at all.
(04:56):
And I have a couple clients who just are allergic to the
Internet, don't want to do any social media.
And that's fine because there's lots of ways to set up an
operation for your business thatallows you to live the lifestyle
that you want to live. So yeah, I mean, I it's kind of,
it's kind of one of my favorite things ever is to kind of ideate
with people. What is your unique set of steps
(05:19):
that is the pathway to your special thing that you do.
And it's very different for every single person, even if
we're all in the same niche and have the same exact ideal client
and we saw the exact same product because I'm me, it's
going to be different the way I do it than than, you know, the
way you ladies might do it. So I think we even get like the
idea of how do you be holistic about your business is starting
(05:42):
with the belief that you can have a lifestyle that is, that
feels good and you don't have togo, you know, bend over
backwards and do things that that don't feel good, whatever
that looks like for you. You know, so not necessarily a
direct answer to your question, but I got, I got to that place
trying all the things and realizing some things don't work
(06:02):
for for me, some things don't work for some of my clients.
Everything kind of works in terms of marketing your
business, but it's important that you start with your core
values and figure out like, whatare the things that I'm really
happy about doing? Because the things that we're
not happy about doing, guess what leads to burnout?
And it happens quickly with the online space that that happens
(06:26):
very quickly for people is that they feel overwhelmed when they
don't get the response that they're trying to get right
away. They spend all this time
creating like an amazing, you know, short form video that
really speaks to their client. It really puts all the pieces in
place and shares about their offer.
And then they get like no likes,no.
So it just gets scrolled down byand they've just spent half a
(06:47):
day like shooting this little feature film, right?
And they're exhausted. And then there's nothing,
nothing happens. It just goes away.
It's gone. It's out there somewhere, but no
one even saw it. I think that leads to burnout
really quick. So yeah, I'm I'm out here trying
to help my clients, not burnout.Absolutely, Deborah, I have to
(07:07):
say that you're absolutely right.
The marketing burnout is real. But this, this concept that we
can almost reverse engineer our marketing efforts as solo
entrepreneurs to, you know, makeit work for us so that it is not
only holistic but also sustainable is absolute music to
(07:31):
my ears. Because so many people talk
about the formulas that you haveto follow for social media.
You know, like these these rulesare unwavering.
And in order to like hack the algorithm or whatever, you know,
that you absolutely have to poston this platform once a day and
on this platform three times a day.
(07:53):
And that's not only is that not sustainable for everybody's
lifestyle, but to your point earlier, for some people, it's
just not a preference. You know, like, unfortunately,
social media in so many ways is a necessary evil in terms of
marketing yourself and getting yourself out there.
But I would really love to know more about like how these
(08:17):
different styles can be manifested.
So for example, like if somebodyreally wants to dial in or like
be super focused with their marketing efforts, could you
could you walk me through what that might look like?
Yeah, absolutely. So, So for me, I think about, so
(08:38):
basically the idea generally speaking is if you have a
product or a service, you also have a capacity, what is your
capacity to serve. So if you offer a one-on-one
consultation, let's just say you're an accountant, I'm just
making this up obviously, but and you can really only do your
job and deliver your offer one to one because you don't have a
(09:01):
course yet or a group coaching program or a community.
What you do is you meet with your client for an hour or two
hours and you go through their taxes or their bills or
whatever. That's your job.
You have to, you have to determine what your capacity is
to serve and what the price point is.
That's like basically the offer creation process.
Then from there, all the marketing is, is getting as many
(09:21):
eyeballs as possible on how you solve a problem with your offer,
with your product or service. And that can be done a million
different ways, right? You could basically write to
your local newspaper and position yourself as the expert
accountant in your hometown and have a little column where now
you're, you're an expert basically on a, a print
(09:43):
newspaper that's distributed throughout the whole town that
you're from. Like that's that.
There's no social media involvedin getting that kind of
attention, but you're being positioned as an expert.
So there's obviously public relations like that, right?
And at the end of the day, the formula is going to be building
an audience of people who want to buy your product or service.
So why social media has been such an interesting development
(10:07):
and why it works so well is because it employs what is one
of the most sticky ways to market something, which is word
of mouth. So if if you have a lot of
followers and you have a lot of people reposting and sharing
your content on a social platform, there's this automatic
authority that gets built there.So post something about your
(10:30):
podcast, for example, and then Irepost it.
All of my, all the people in my little audience are going to
think that you're more importantbecause I've taken the time like
it's automatic validation, automatic authority.
So that's why social media is such a quick way to build, you
know, whatever, But the formula is just create an audience,
(10:51):
nurture an audience, care about your audience, serve your
audience and offer them opportunities to pay you for
your higher, you know, value of work, right?
So no matter, no matter what, that's the same.
The way to grow that audience isfor since caveman days is tell
good stories. Like the best marketing is just
(11:11):
storytelling. So so especially now we're kind
of in this era of the personal brand, right?
Like, the more we get to know you, the more likely we're going
to gravitate towards you when weneed whatever you do.
So those little nuanced things about your life, like that
favorite rock'n'roll band that you had a concert to get to, you
(11:32):
know, just funny stories about things that have happened in
your life when you maybe failed and then got back up again.
Or, you know, an interaction with a person or a client that
shows not only social proof thatyou worked with a client, but
also shows how you help them. All those stories shape the the
perspective of your audience. And that can be done in so many
(11:53):
different ways that it does not have to be done through social
media. I'll give you a quick example.
I have a client who she's in English as a second language
teacher. And specifically she had a
background working in the court system in New Jersey.
And she, her burning passion wasto help new American immigrants
(12:14):
who are new green card holders, not only learn to speak the
language in the way that she didwhen she first moved here 40
years ago. So learning the slang, learning
like the proper use of American terminology, American, I mean,
just basically using the Englishlanguage in a way that it feels
natural so they feel more comfortable.
(12:34):
But also she wants to teach themtheir basic civil liberties.
So if they get pulled over by a cop, they have the right to
remain silent. Like they know that they're
allowed to have an attorney thatthey know like really basic
stuff that could really, really help them, right?
So she did not want to do socialmedia.
She's in her mid 60s. Just felt like she missed that
(12:54):
ship and was like, I just can't do this.
So I said no problem. What we need is an audience and
great storytelling. We don't need to do social
media. What we'll do instead is we'll
create a Zoom meeting room that's a weekly open house.
Come to the. So we created all of her offers
and we created, you know, specific little classes, a trip
(13:16):
to the bank, how to speak to thegrocer, like all these little
niche classes that are like, youknow, a few dollars each,
virtual classes, they all exist so anybody can buy them on her
website. Then she just started opening a
room once a week for 45 minutes and literally it's her in there
reading the newspaper. Oh wow.
That's what that did for her. So she told the woman who worked
(13:40):
in the building that she lives in.
If you know anybody that wants to learn better English, tell
them to come to this thing. All you have to do is click one
link. So you can do that from any
smartphone. So it's really low tech.
So even these people who don't have any working knowledge of
her, who can't read English or whatever, they're clicking this
link now they're in the room with her and she's there with
the newspaper. So she's reading the newspaper
and then basically they're like speaking in English with her.
(14:02):
They're getting super high value, right?
They're getting like, dialogue is the quickest way to learn a
language. And then they're telling their
friends, they're telling their neighbors, they're telling their
aunt, they're telling word of mouth.
So she's like, oh, I'm, I'm MissLulu.
It's Miss Lulu's ESL Academy. At the end of each open house,
she just drops the link to her website.
And that's where all her classesare.
(14:23):
It's the, it's like the, it's the most genius funnel because
it's all, it's all word of mouth.
She has done 0 advertising and she's getting week after week,
people are coming into this thing learning about her offer
and buying from her. But she had to see that and she
had to build the back end of that first.
But my point is, I guess like, you know, that's one of my
favorite examples of like how tocompletely circumnavigate social
(14:45):
media. You know, when we first started
out, we were going to build her like a little YouTube channel or
maybe open up an Instagram page just for the ESL Academy.
And it was just the heaviest lift for her.
She just, she's it was it was paralyzing her, right?
She could not envision doing what that would take.
And I was like, OK, great, let'sgo a different route.
(15:08):
It would be really easy. Now she has a little flyer in
the local library that with AQR code, they scan that, it takes
them right to her website. It's just so simple.
So because she has an offer thatpeople need and she delivers it
in a way that feels safe to people and people are talking
about it, she's building an audience naturally.
(15:29):
And, and what we did was we set up an e-mail marketing situation
for her so that I, I would say like, you know, 1 undeniable
core piece of a, a growable, scalable marketing system is
going to be a proprietary e-maillist.
And even though e-mail marketingis kind of like dinosaur these
days, with all the like fancy ways that you can quickly
(15:49):
connect to people, I swear by having a, a list of people who
have said, yes, you can have my e-mail and, and nurturing those
people. Those are going to be your
warmest leads at any given time.They're going to be the ones
that have built trust with. They're going to be the people
who love hearing your stories week after week, who learn from
you, who listen to your podcast,who want to read your book, who
(16:11):
will come to a workshop they're most likely to buy from you.
So that that being set up on theback end, I think is a critical
foundational tool for any solopreneur.
And then just slowly growing that list by being present in
places where your ideal client hangs out.
And I think if you are, you know, there's like an
(16:31):
interesting thing happening withlike millennial business owners
who, what I see anyways, my, my lens on it is like there is an
age range of people who grew up with the Internet.
And so if your business was born, if you, if you only ever
knew life on the Internet, you probably don't feel the same as
some of the people in the older age groups.
(16:53):
So it's interesting to watch some of them.
I, I, I learned a lot from them.They're really, they have 0
barrier to entry with just like selling on stories all day long.
Like they have no problem doing that.
But that is not most people. It's not.
And so I think for most people, the most important thing to
(17:13):
consider when you're thinking about how do I share my work and
really build my audience is whatare the stories in my zone of
expertise that make me who I am?What are my special skills?
What are my lived experiences that where I where I won, where
I failed, where I learned something, where something
that's just special about you? What's your favorite recipe?
You know, what's your dog's name?
(17:33):
Like, we care about those thingsbecause as human beings, we are
innately curious. So if you start a story and you
say, hey, I was walking down thestreet the other day and all of
a sudden I saw this giant balloon pop and out came this
crazy blue liquid. So that took me 3 or 4 seconds
to say that story. I have to know what was in the
(17:56):
balloon. Now, like maybe 8% of human
beings are going to stick aroundto find out what was in the
balloon. Like, that's just in our human
nature. So storytelling is this
mechanism with a beginning, middle and an end that you open
a loop. And as human beings who are both
curious and complicated and we want to close the loop.
So we want to know the end of the story.
We want the result that you, we want to know what happens next.
(18:19):
So really the most basic thing that anyone needs to do is tell
good stories in a place where your ideal client is listening
to stories that could be on the Internet, but it could be in a
really comfortable, cozy, private community space that you
build basically for free, right?You can have just, you could
literally say, hey everyone, once a week I'm opening a Zoom
(18:42):
and I'm going to share 3. Each week I'm going to share 3
tips and my niche expertise. I promise you that we'll grow
word of mouth like wildfire if you're good at what you do and
you're helping them and you tellgood stories and that's it.
They're going to tell everybody,yo, I'm going to this Zoom with
this lady who is an expert and Ican't believe it's free.
(19:05):
They're going to feel like they're getting so much value
because you're in the actual space with them and that
connection feels good and they're getting something out of
it. They're going to tell their
friend. And that's the same as why
social media actually works. Absolutely, Deborah, mind blown.
The concept of being able to, tomarket your services and, and
(19:27):
what you're doing without socialmedia, even just with a simple
Zoom room, that's incredible. Like I, I feel like that is the
especially for everybody, like we said, who you know, is
experiencing marketing burnout. That is the inspirational story
that we needed today. And I think there's so many,
especially women, I just have tocall it out who are struggle
(19:50):
with visibility issues because of the way we were raised.
Like, if you really want to get down to it, like I, when I do
live, whatever, if I'm speaking on a stage or if I'm going on a,
you know, any kind of video connection.
It's one thing if I'm working with a client, obviously I want
to peer professional and well groomed and you know, like
(20:10):
healthy and vibrant. But we, we women, we tend.
To really hyper focus on our appearance and just a funny
piece. There's layers to it.
Is your hair done? Is there, is your makeup right?
Are people going to be judging you?
Like we were raised to believe we were just shown image after
image of this like perfect, ideal woman.
(20:34):
And whether or not we bought into that aesthetic and that
idea, it was, it was shoved downour throats from a young age.
So women raised in the in America have been preconditioned
to be concerned about visibility, whether or not we
admit it, whether or not we dealwith it, whether or not we
excavate it, it's, it's layered into our psyche.
It's in there, right? So you can be a woman who says,
(20:57):
I don't really care what anyone thinks.
You can be a rebel, you can be ariot girl, you can be a total
hardcore feminist and block the conditioning.
But that does not forgo that. The conditioning is there.
There we are, you know, with social media being the like,
quickest and fastest way to what, go viral and get in front
of a million eyeballs. It's just like not the right
(21:18):
formula for a lot of people. And trying to compete in that
marketplace in that way is exhausting.
It's it's at the end of one day,you're like, I'm done.
I give up. You want to, you want to quit
running your business, you know,giving up on your passion
because you can't what, like getlike traction on a stupid app?
It's insane. I, I so appreciate all of this,
(21:41):
Deborah. I, I almost wish I'd met you a
year ago just because I one of the first things that happened
when I shifted from a more corporate space to to starting
out coaching and consulting business was that dread that I
had worked. I was so proud of myself because
(22:03):
I had finally gotten off of all social media with the exception
of LinkedIn, right? It was such a great feeling.
I felt so free. And then, you know, I did the
tiniest bit of research and everyone was like, if you're
doing coaching and consulting, it's LinkedIn and social media
and that's it. That's it.
That's how you market. And no one said that there were
(22:25):
any other options. Like they're really, it was
either that or like sign up for conferences, which is fine, but
you know, cost a decent amount of money and doesn't always.
It wasn't necessarily the, the venue for me.
And to your point, Deborah, I, I'm so aware of because the
(22:46):
reason I say all this, I was burnt out from social media just
by being a woman in the world, just by being a feminist in the
world, just by being someone whohas political beliefs in the
world. Right.
Yeah. It's hard to know.
Do I go online and and be like, hey everyone, we're starving
children in Gaza or do I be like, hey everyone, I'm a coach
come by my offer like you have to check, yes.
(23:10):
Such a good point, Such a good point.
Oh, I know for me that that paralyzes me, like having values
that I, I'm like, how can we, how can we be ignoring these
things and talking about it's a fine line you have to navigate
if you're online, if you're on social media.
Absolutely. So like our audience really does
(23:30):
want to have that personal connection with us.
And in doing so, they also want to know, they want to make sure
that their beliefs are aligned with ours because people are
becoming more and more consciousof how they're spending their
money, where they're spending their money.
And so it's, it is a fine line to walk in terms of like how you
(23:52):
Telegraph what your principles are so that your audience knows
that they're aligned with you, but not falling into those
niches where people want to makeit all about arguing all day,
because even even if they're conversations that need to be
had in a holistic way, that can lead to burnout too.
And of course it the whole reason we like we as
(24:16):
solopreneurs are in those spaceson online is to show our offer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am so politically right.
Like with all the things that are happening in this country,
we're at a volatile breaking point.
We're at a fever pitch point where we're basically in like
(24:38):
non yet we're in a civil war, right?
We're in a we're divided. And so like it's really touchy.
It's it's touchy to go out publicly and express your values
if you have beliefs that align with one or the other.
Quote side. I think it's interesting to me
because I really believe like the facade of us being pitted
(25:01):
against each other is really truly just a facade.
We're all essentially want the same things.
We want security, we want to be healthy, we want to have, you
know, opportunity. We want to feel like our life
has a purpose. Like that's the human condition.
Most people, you know, that's really all we really want,
right? Definitely some people are like,
no, I want to be a billionaire and like own space or whatever.
(25:22):
But there's most people, most the average human being is like,
I want security, I want to feel safe.
I want to have like a little piece, I want to have a little
property where I can do whateverI do.
And I want to have a purpose with my life and have a healthy
family. And so I think that we're more
alike than different. And I try not to buy into the
like fear mongering stuff that is perpetuated online.
(25:44):
But I also feel strongly for me,I've made the choice and this
was a difficult choice. I'm not going to not speak my
values because I can't live withmyself if I don't.
I'm also not going to stop selling my offer because that's
my business. And it took me, I think being
I've been self-employed for 18 years.
(26:05):
I have put the, you know, rubberto the road.
I've put the work in a long enough that I, I don't feel like
I have to justify that anymore. Like if you're following me on
my business page, please regard that as my business marketing
channel and expect me to sell from there.
Like that's why I have it. That's why I built this.
(26:26):
You're following me because I can help you.
So sometimes it's free help, sometimes it's paid help.
I speak about my job here. I also speak about my beliefs
here because that's who I am andI think that that does matter.
But every single time I want to create a social media post that
is going to have like a political ratification or some
(26:47):
could be construed as controversial in some way, I
get, I try to get really I I checked in with my nervous
system first, like is this goingto benefit me?
Why am I doing this? What is the point?
Am I trying to get attention or is this something that I can't
live with myself if I don't say it?
And I, I kind of run myself through a couple of questions
like am I just trying to be relevant and have a, you know,
(27:10):
be seen, which is not of the right motivation.
If it's because I want my ideal client who's out there watching
me to know that I'm a leader andI'm not afraid, that's valuable.
And if it's because I can't livewithout letting people know this
is who I am, that's valuable. But if it's just kind of like
(27:30):
draw more attention or something, I don't think that's
the right purpose for that kind of content, which I think people
get. I think it's just good to check
in with yourself before you put anything on the Internet.
Is this a service? You know, and and you can, you
know, it's your social media. You can say whatever you want.
You can be like, my dog is getting a bath today.
Great. Or you could be like, hey, I'm
(27:51):
launching a brand new program today.
Come on over. And I think it's just more about
just checking in with yourself, you know, what is this?
What's the goal here? Absolutely, Deborah, this is
this is so rich. And and I feel like I could say
50 things based on what you're saying.
And, and this is new too. Like I really appreciate that
we're having this conversation and that we're having it now
(28:11):
because we have, we've touched on burnout because of the
political moment. We've touched on burnout because
of, you know, being in business or being in the corporate space
or burnout because of masking. But this is, this is a, this is
unique, right? It's, it's the burnout that
comes from being on social mediaor living out loud using your
(28:33):
voice, whether it's on social media or not.
But I do think, and you can tellme if what your experience has
been, there's something about living out loud on social media
that kind of, I think people feel a little more emboldened to
push back or to say things that they would never say to your
face. So it is a choice that you make
(28:55):
knowing that, you know, you might get some pretty harsh
responses. But I think what I'm thinking
about right now, you mentioned before the the values piece and
how every time that I attend a course on leadership or even on
marketing, it always starts withvalues and it starts with who
(29:17):
are you? You know, what are you offering?
What are what are you giving? What need are you meeting right?
But also what are your values? And I think what I'm hearing
you, I'm extrapolating from whatyou're saying is like know your
values before you start to market, before you start to to
talk about your business, beforeyou build your website.
(29:39):
Because not only is it good to have just one clear message from
a marketing perspective, but also it seems like every day
there are you're making micro choices around that.
You don't always have the time to just like analyze or what is
(30:00):
this going to look like next week, a month, a year, five
years, right? How is this going to look down
the road? Because often times it's rapid
fire choices. You talked about checking in and
I'm wondering, Deborah, for you,like how did you, what was it
like to finally choose? Like this is my voice, this is
(30:20):
how I'm going to use it, even ifif there are negative
consequences. Yeah, that's a good question.
I mean, so it's so kind of a multi layer answer, but I will
say prior. So right now my business is 100%
online. I'm a coach, I have a course
that I sell, I have a hybrid group coaching program and I do
(30:43):
one-on-one technical build out of funnels for people.
So some clients just hire me, they're like, I don't have time
to do this, help me strategize and build the thing and it's
lead generation and sales, right?
So around there. But I should say all of my
clients are these sort of soulful, you know, purpose
driven. I work with a lot of people who
who care. So they're not just like they'll
(31:03):
be a funnel. Like we do the work together.
I coach them a little bit on howto get to the place where
they're like really stoked abouttheir offer.
But then sometimes I just do thework for them.
And and then I also have a groupcoaching program where we move
through the program together. And that business, the, the
entire model of this business was built based on what I
(31:24):
consider to be like a failed business model from my first
business. And I call it failed business
model because it was not a business model.
It was me just piling more and more things on top of my To Do
List. So as the business grew and
scaled, I was like entrenched inthe core function of it.
And it could not, it could not function without me.
(31:46):
Like the longest break I ever took in the 15 year span of
running that business was 2 weeks.
And the whole time I was gone, Iwas like, is this going to fall
apart while I'm gone? Like I just, I built a business
that could not function without me and LED to serious burnout.
Like I really did go through, I would say about a two year
(32:07):
period of recovery from the level of exhaustion that I felt
when I shut down completely. My first business.
I was still working, but it was like I was dysfunctional.
And so now when new clients comeinto my business or if I work
with the person for, you know, from scratch or if they, the
first module in my course is about the foundational stuff
(32:32):
that is going to help you stay really stable when the boat
rocks and build a structure and A and an operation for your
business that prioritizes your Wellness.
Because if you don't, you are building on a foundation that's
missing the most key element of your whole life.
So now my clients, we, we start with like literally what do you
(32:54):
want your day to look like? And we do an exercise around
core values, which is really fun, actually.
It's an opportunity to kind of look back at your whole life and
say, what are all the things that I have already
accomplished? Even if you go all the way back
to high school when you won likethe tennis match or like what
are the things that you that arehighlights, the highlight reel
(33:15):
of the things that make you mostproud about your life?
Why did they make you feel proud?
Did you, you know, collect all the Girl Scout badges and now
you have like this really? Do you have pride around having,
you know, a completed some type of program in your life or
serving, you know, volunteer kitchen work at, you know, some
type of a shelter? Or is it a trip that you took
(33:38):
that was just an exciting adventure you went on that you
gave yourself permission to do? Like what are the things that
matter the most when you look back and the accomplishments and
the skills, the experiences and when you start to look at this
giant list, it's like a one pagedocument.
That's just all the things that you're that are kind of like the
highlight reel you start to see.Oh, I was always doing something
(33:59):
in service to women. Oh, I was always making sure
that it was ethical. I never used those unethical
tactics. Oh, I was always really clear
about the financial piece, and Ialways made sure that everybody
got paid really well inside thatbusiness.
That's a core value. That your employees are treated
(34:20):
like human beings is a core value.
That women should be treated equal as men is a core value.
That you know that and you can, there can be lots of core values
that are a little bit more aesthetic and esoteric, but
there's going to be some foundational beliefs that are
who you are based on your lived experience and what drove you to
make certain decisions. And we don't think about that
(34:42):
all day long in like a lump sum,because when you do this
exercise, it can help you to just realize like, oh, I do have
core values. I've lived them.
Look what I did there, there, there and there.
And that's all the same thing. And it helps you to kind of
realize I'm bringing the, and you can then you can sit and
sort what am I bringing with me into building my brand voice?
(35:04):
So in answer to the question, like when I decided I was going
to completely, I mean, I, the pandemic helps me make a
decision about my service based business.
It was not, we had to shut down,you know, catering, A catering
citywide catering company, multiple pop up juice bars.
Like it was a big operation thatgot shut down.
But I was, I was thrilled. I was burned out.
(35:24):
So I was like, and I don't have to ever do that again.
So, you know, I was like actually really genuinely like,
wow, somebody up there in the higher, you know, realm of
quantum energy is taking care ofme because I no longer ever have
to do a 5:00 AM pickup of 12 cases of cucumbers.
We're good just kind of like that was really that was
(35:47):
information, right. The relief that I felt when my
multifaceted, you know, multi six and seven figure business
operation was shut down and I was like ecstatic.
That's pretty big information. No, no, no, no amount of money
will ever replace you having a, a, a lifestyle that you feel
safe, comfortable, healthy and like your life is on track to,
(36:12):
to experience the joy that you're after.
Like so we built these businesses and we, and we're
chasing money and we're chasing validation, or at least I was as
a younger entrepreneur straight up.
And you get to this place where you reach the financial goal
that you thought you were after,and you're miserable.
Or in my case, I was. I was not happy because I was.
I was working from 5:00 AM to like 7:00 PM every day because
(36:35):
the business couldn't run without me always being on.
I was always on. That's a recipe for disaster.
So now I had to take a major step back and say what?
What do I really, really can't care about?
What is the hill that I will dieon?
What are the things I can take from what I learned from doing
business and that I will stand on and, you know, slap my name
(36:59):
on any day and what are the things that I have to own were
actually really like cracked foundation from the get go.
And a lot of that is like ego woven into business decisions
like proving energy. That was young life stuff that I
have to really just own, be honest about, and then release
(37:22):
with love, right? And say like, OK, we did that.
We were, you know, making decisions based on the wrong set
of criteria. And so now finding my voice and
being comfortable with who I am as a business owner, it really
does look like when I say this to my mother, when I say this to
my best friend, if I would say this to the core, found my
husband, the people in my life who I trust and value their
(37:44):
opinion more than anybody, then I should be able to say it to my
audience. And so if I believe, you know, a
certain thing that happens to be, I don't know, like these
issues that are now becoming political issues should almost
some of them should not be like,nobody should be like, yeah,
we're just going to ignore, you know, wholesale starvation of an
entire country of human beings like that, that or whatever,
(38:06):
right. So there's some things where I
think it's just more humanitarian crisis and we feel
helpless. But there's some things where it
is your opinion that you're going to go out into public
spaces and share, I think run yourself through a foundational
checklist like are these things that I'll I'll die on Matt Hill
and I'll defend this even if I get attacked for it.
(38:28):
Interesting thing that I want toadd, which is that if you listen
to people in the social media space who I think are like who,
who have a lot of followers because what they do is
successful. So like Instagram, social media
managers and people who, who strategize specifically for like
LinkedIn or Facebook groups or whatever they will, you will
(38:51):
hear the the piece of advice that strategically for you to
stand out against your competition, you need to have
contrarian content. Contrarian content is obviously
finding a trend on the Internet that is like everyone's saying,
do this and then taking either astance against that or exerting
(39:11):
an opinion, you know, inserting your opinion to stand out
against that. And the purpose of being
contrarian is to get seen by people as a leader.
So it's people will tell you strategically and advise you to
create contrarian content. However, if you create
contrarian content, you're inviting dissent.
(39:32):
You're saying, come argue with me, come say why you think I'm
wrong. And key there is that any
reaction bubbles you up in the algorithm and gets more eyeballs
on your content. So there are some people for
whom their entire strategy is contrarian, right?
They're just going to go out there all day long and say
disagree with the gurus and and tell you why you're not going to
(39:53):
do this good. And it's, it's a social media
strategy to to become a target essentially because.
At the end of the day, it's going to rapidly grow your
audience, get all those eyeballson your offer.
And it's a numbers game. So we know statistically that if
your offer is good and you have proven results, all you need to
do is amplify the eyeballs on your thing.
(40:16):
And so people go out there and they create these like, not
values based, not like identity,solid pieces of content just to
like throw a punch in the open marketplace because they know
that's going to invite a little kerfuffle.
And that's what they want. They want to be seen.
(40:37):
And so they don't care if their content is values based at all.
It's it's a strategy that a lot of people use.
I'm not going to say it's unethical.
It's not what I want to do, but it's kind of just not authentic,
right? It's like not really aligned
with who you are as a person. Or, or maybe it is, maybe you're
a contrarian person who just wants to fight in the
marketplace. But the reason I bring it up is
(40:59):
because like, once again, like that's an entire strategy that
that that is like not at all aligned with something like a
core value or an identity. And I think if you're somebody
who cares deeply about being aligned in your business, you
(41:21):
know, who wants to be of serviceto a certain type of person for
whom core values are going to really matter, then I would, I
would honestly, you know, advisecreating a, a lead generation
strategy and a sales strategy that don't rely on social media
at all. Because the way to use social
media as your top of funnel is going to require you to
(41:43):
constantly, like you were saying, like put put out, you
know, be living life out loud out there, you know, to keep the
to keep the eyeballs on your stuff, on your content.
Right. It's it's tough.
Yeah. And, and Deborah, I, I really
appreciate you calling out the, the recognition of what's
(42:04):
happening in a lot of advertising right now and in
terms of being contrarian simplyfor the purpose of getting in
front of more eyes and getting more conversations going.
And the more conversations I've seen even like within the, you
know, marketing and like the retail and like relevant
industries, the more that even the industry is recognizing
(42:27):
that, yes, these strategies are getting a lot of eyes on them,
but they're not translating to sales.
And that's why, you know, they're, they're looking at so
many of these marketing teams, you know, having to switch their
strategies because it's, it's not just about everybody talking
about your, your product or yourservice.
(42:48):
Because if the only thing that'shappening is people talking and
not buying, then it's not, it's not getting to your offer.
You know, the, the core of what we've been talking about this
whole time. Like the the story has to
support whatever your call to action is.
And when we separate from our principles and our values, then
(43:13):
people automatically see that this is not authentic messaging.
And I love how you capture so comprehensively and with so much
heart, almost like this juxtaposition of a visual of
like our principal foundations and the like, the foundational
(43:36):
role of storytelling. Because when you tell stories
that you are connected with at their very core, and that core
is also related to what you do, then you get to use both at the
same time. And it's almost like, you know,
if you open up a Lego set and like half the pieces are
(43:56):
missing, it's not going to be the, the finished product.
And so you've got to use all of your building blocks, all of the
building blocks that make who you are as a person to present
yourself and your your offer to your audience.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's also what makes
marketing fun because think, think about it.
(44:18):
There's a bazillion business coaches.
I'm one of bazillion, literally.And so why choose me?
Well, I play the acoustic guitar.
Like that's just one teeny detail that makes me different
than the woman sitting next to me who doesn't, you know what
I'm saying? Like, I don't have any pets, but
I do have a bear that walks through my backyard every day.
(44:38):
Now, you know I have a bear in my yard.
So you're starting to get more of a picture, right?
It's like already we're one stepdeeper into each other's worlds
just by these little nuanced, the shaping of your story and
the environment that you know, the way that you present the the
thing that you sell, I think is best is best housed in the the,
(44:59):
the sort of everyday details of who you actually are as a living
a life person. That's what makes it
interesting. That's going to make me say, oh,
I want to work with her because she also really loves picking
blueberries, you know, or so I don't know, I'm making that up.
But like the details are where we find our, the hooks, you
know, So I think, I think storytelling, not only is it the
(45:21):
most, you know, magnetic way to capture the attention of your
audience, but it's also where you're transferring those
little, those little tidbits that whether you realize it or
not, or helping your audience decide whether or not you're
aligned. Well, and that's coming from a
place of alignment and not disagreement.
(45:43):
Too, Because I think like, you know, traditional marketing is
like you whenever you like. If you think about marketing as
the way it was, let's say in the80s, you probably think about
like, you know, some cheesy usedcar salesman commercial or
something like, you know, this is the best deal in town.
Kind of like these ads that we grew up with that are kind of
that shape our idea of what salesman are like and what it is
(46:06):
like to be that kind of person. But I think that, you know, the
Internet, you know, say what youwant about it, but it's given us
this really big platform on which to test out a lot of
different things. And I actually love social media
as top of funnel for the people for whom it is a good fit.
I think that's a personality like type issue.
(46:26):
I think that's really like, it really is about capacity codes,
right? Do you have the capacity to
connect in that way with a largenumber of people and manage it?
If you do, awesome, that's goingto be helpful.
But no matter what, I want you to have that foundation set up
behind the scenes so that any way that you open a door to your
(46:47):
world and invite people in, whether it's, you know,
literally I have a client who I'm like, let's just go hang a
flyer down at the farmer's market in your town because same
thing she does. My other client that really
could not see herself getting onsocial media, she just, it was
like a hell no. And I was like, great.
We created like some training videos for her.
(47:07):
She's a gut health coach and shespecifically makes fermented
foods. So she, her passion is to help
people heal their gut through fermented beats and things like
that. Awesome.
So specific. Lots of people want to learn
this. She created a video.
We put it up online so you can easily go find it.
You can buy this little trainingand work with her directly.
(47:27):
How are we going to let people know about it?
We literally hung Flyers in her town with QR codes that go to
the thing and it that story, when you get to the thing, you
find out that 7 generations of women in her family have been
passing down this recipe. So already you want the recipe
because it's 7 generations of women in Russian, her family,
(47:47):
she's Russian. And it was like this really
fantastic story and all they have all of amazing skin and
she's like, ah, my skin's like this because I do gut health.
Like that's the whole promo. But it's like the story is so
fascinating right from the get go, we just tell the story of
her great, great, great grandmother and and you can see
her skin is amazing, right? And then she there's the recipe
and you can get it for, you know, whatever this low price
(48:10):
point, it's so easy to just put your money in and buy and get
the recipe and work with her to learn this thing.
And it's very aligned with you know who she is.
And it's a Safeway for her to market her product and make
sales of a digital video. That's just, it's Evergreen.
You can buy it right now. So it's an easy thing for her to
create. It leads to people working
(48:31):
one-on-one with her. But she doesn't want to do
social media. But if she were to do social
media, all she needs to do is create.
You know, she could create an Instagram channel or a TikTok
and make little videos of her inher kitchen.
All that's going to do is put gasoline on that fire.
But the fire is already burning.She has a back end system that
(48:52):
is automated in Evergreen. So no matter where people come
from, whether it's the farmer's market, word of mouth, or if she
were to decide to do something to amplify her reach, like, you
know, go on the local news, pitch herself to be in an
article in a magazine, speak on a stage or like we said, social
media. To me, social media is just one
of the many ways you can amplifyyour reach.
(49:14):
And so I want no matter what I want you to have a back end
operation that's tested, tried, true and running smoothly before
you, you know, spend any of yourtime doing any of the marketing
things that you might do. Absolutely Well, you heard it
here folks. The answer is not always social
media. And Deborah knows exactly like
all of the different and even non traditional ways of
(49:38):
marketing your work. This, this is so incredibly
special and, and I have to say this, this message that there is
not only one way to do things for your business in a holistic
way is so incredibly inspiring. And I think it's also a really
great way of looking at the different ways that we can meet
(50:01):
our audience too, because like when when we actually take a
step back and consider all the different ways that we can reach
our audience, we have to recognize that, you know, not
everybody is looking for services or products on social
media like are some of our audience is not on there on any
of the platforms. And so it's also a tribute to
(50:25):
recognizing the desire to connect with our audience over
like wanting of a follower countor like the that engagement or
you know, something of that nature and showing that
dedication to connecting with our audience first and foremost.
Yeah, I think that's that's Ground Zero.
(50:45):
It's just like who do you want to serve?
How can have a conversation withthem?
And that that is like the first really important rung on the
ladder. And it may lead you to creating
social media accounts that servethat purpose.
But I like to think about it like if you're really clear,
(51:06):
like let's say you what you do for a living is bake bread and
you have this recipe like crystal clear, you've got it
down pat. It's anybody can learn this and
they can make their own bread. Well, that's a really awesome
thing that you can sell to people, share with people, teach
people, whatever. Now you just have to think to
yourself, who are the people whoare going to most want to learn
(51:26):
my bread recipe? And how can I get them all
together in a room and serve them one to many?
That's the way they like, right?Scaling your income is going to
be about, you know, amplifying the way you can connect to
people. And again, like, what is the
capacity that you have? But there's also just so many
different ways that you can build that audience, invite them
(51:51):
into like, I think of it as likesafe spaces in your house, Like
your, your, your online presenceis like you built a little house
on the Internet and what's inside that house is your offers
and your marketing is all the different pathways that lead to
your house. So it's good to have an online
presence to have, you know, either an e-mail service
provider with a public fronting page or a website or a community
(52:11):
space, whatever it is, because then you have a digital home
base. But there's a lot of ways to
invite people inside there. And yeah, I think it's, it's
really important that people don't force themselves to do
things they don't want to do. That's never going to, that's
never going to work. I will say Lindy, for speaking
(52:31):
about just specifically for the coaching industry, I, I just
released a podcast episode about, I did a bunch of research
on kind of like what are the tophighest converting funnels
specifically for coaches and service providers?
And besides speaking on stage, like being presented by an
organization and being told likethis is an expert, she's going
(52:53):
to speak and then just flashing AQR code where there's, you
know, if you get presented on a stage, obviously you're top of
the game. You've been hired to speak
publicly. That's a pretty big audience,
but a really fantastic mechanismis the good old fashioned
webinar. And they are still working like
(53:13):
gangbusters to convert coaching clients.
And you can simply run an ad to a landing page for whatever the
topic is of your expertise. And that's what I've been doing
for many, many years. I teach couple times a month for
free. And at the end there's always,
how can you work with me? I I away from like big, you
(53:36):
know, gratuitous launches because they just, they burned
me out and I was like, Oh my God, I don't want to do this.
And so if I don't want to do it,there's got to be another way.
And what I do love doing is these micro classrooms where
you're leaving with a ton of value, whether or not you ever
decide to work with me. I serve my mission, which is
helping more women build, you know, scale their businesses and
(53:58):
earn more money because you wentoff and took that nugget and you
applied it and you got some place.
And, you know, if 20 people cometo a webinar, at least five of
them are probably going to take me up on a, you know, a
discovery call or check out my offers.
So it's like, it's just an easy,fun way to actually get a room
(54:19):
with people. They can feel your energy.
They learn something and they take away some value.
Whether or not they buy, it often leads to a sale.
And it's like a low stakes ways to just connect authentically.
And and I was, I do that already.
So I was really happy to see statistically that it's also
considered still in 2025, one ofthe most high converting
(54:41):
funnels. Let's stop doing it in quotes
because the it's not, it doesn'tfeel like that automated
Evergreen funnel. That's like all the different
hoops that you might jump through, but it's basically just
running an ad to your event and the event is you in a room
speaking about your topic of expertise and then sharing how
people can hire you. Like super basic it it works.
(55:01):
Yeah, right. That's important information.
And Deborah, we're so we're so grateful for all of this.
I mean, I know you've shared such a wealth from your years of
experience and knowledge, but also I just, I really appreciate
your emphasis on authenticity and sustainability because I
(55:21):
think, you know, we've all heardwhatever industry we're in, you
know, we've all heard versions of become someone else in order
to either be accepted in your work or be respected or make
money, right? There's a there's, there's that
messaging everywhere in just about any space.
And I just really appreciate your your emphasis on finding
(55:45):
that foundation, sticking with your core values, be who you
are, even if it feels like you're taking a risk because
it's connected with your core values.
I think that's such an importantmessage.
And also just some really great information about, you know,
marketing a small business. This has been so valuable.
So, Deborah, thank you so much for your time and we would love
(56:08):
to know when you're not in the burnout break room, where can we
find you? Yeah, so I have a podcast, it's
called Mindset to Market. It's on every major streaming
platform. It's a weekly episodic show.
I do some solo episodes and I have some amazing guests and
it's hyper focused on supportingsolopreneurs in building
(56:32):
sustainable systems. So every single episode is some
facet of that ongoing mission. It's just to help make marketing
easier for people who have theirown business.
And my website is Deborah C smith.com and it's my name is
spelled the biblical way. It's DEBORAHCSMITH, and I have
(56:55):
links to freebies and things like that, lots of free
trainings and resources. And yeah, I'm also on Instagram.
I'm on, I'm on. I have social media accounts
kind of across the board, but mybehavior there is interestingly
like a mix of sharing what I'm working on and just kind of
glimpses of life to kind of keepit balanced in that way.
(57:18):
Yeah, wonderful. Thank you.
And Caitlin, what about you whenyou're not in the burnout break
room? Where can we find you?
Folks can find me at caitlintruehella.com and there
you can also find all my social media, everything from TikTok,
Instagram. So for everybody who's looking
for creative coaching or lookingto do an ideation session, you
(57:41):
know, have brainstorming about your your next entrepreneurship
venture and can they can get in touch with me there.
And Lindy, when you're not in the break room, where can people
find you? So Lindy larimore.com, that's
where you will find information on hiring me as a coach or
(58:04):
consulting for creating burnout free spaces.
You can also find me on Instagram and similarly you
you'll see some about my work. You might hear me sing a thing
or two and yeah, see a little bit about my life, which I now
hear from an expert is not a badidea.
So thank you. More you can be your authentic
(58:29):
self, I think the more the rightpeople are going to find you,
yeah. So we've definitely got our
homework cut out for us. Yes, yeah, I'm going to re look
at everything, but yeah, yeah, it's I think I I love that it's
Find your North Star and then and then just follow it.
Yeah. And I would just final thought
is just if you're questioning how to get to that place,
(58:51):
probably the most valuable entrepreneurial tool that I have
developed in the last 20 years is learning to listen to my gut
instinct. Just it's in your body, your gut
is going to tell you if it's a yes or a no every single time.
And you can develop that intuition by practicing
listening and just literally feeling like, do I feel sick to
(59:12):
my stomach good, Like it's pushing out of my copper zone
and I'm going to grow from this?Or do I feel sick to my stomach
bad? Like, I really don't want to do
this and I should not be doing this.
And it's in there, it's in your,it's in your, your navigation
system is like our, our natural GPS is always going to give us
the right answer. So absolutely listen to the
(59:33):
guide. Such a great, such a great mic
drop moment to end the episode on.
Thank you so much. Having me, I love the break
room. Thanks.
Thank you, Deborah. See everyone next week.
See you then. Bye.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:27):
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. Hey Lindy, how you doing?
Hi Caitlin. I'm doing good.
I'm doing good. I feel like I'm getting every
last little drip of summer before I go into my like get
under my blanket for several months mode.
(00:51):
It's pre hibernation prep like squeezing the last bits of
sunshine out of out of summer. And as a as a vitamin D
deficient friend, I feel that. But I have to say I and also
because I'm not as much of A summer person, I am so excited
(01:16):
for autumn and Halloween. Personally, winter is my
favorite season, but we're we'regetting there.
So I'm enjoying the transition. I'm trying to get in all my bike
rides before I have to like hangmy bike up for for the the AC
(01:36):
months. That's what I'm going to do
right after this. But yeah, yeah, I have to say
I'm in Massachusetts. It has been the most gorgeous
end of summer I've ever experienced, so I feel so
grateful. I just try to be outside every
moment that I can get. So if I ever complain about the
(01:58):
weather, I try to also be aware that there are some beautiful
days and take advantage and takecare of my holistic self.
Which brings me to our wonderfulguest today.
We are so excited to have Deborah C Smith.
(02:21):
She's a holistic business coach,marketing strategist, and host
of the Mindset to Market podcast.
Deborah helps her clients breakthrough limiting beliefs
and create a life of abundance by harnessing the power of
atomic daily habits and sustainable business practices,
(02:41):
including even the simplest shift in mindset.
Her mission is to help ambitioussolopreneurs build simple
systems inside their business that allows them to grow their
impact and income while living more of their lives offline.
Deborah, that sounds so exciting.
(03:02):
I, I have to say, as a solopreneur myself, I was not at
all prepared for how online there's I'm expected to be.
So please tell us about yourself, about your work, and
maybe what brought you to to your work.
Hi, Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think everyone,
(03:24):
everyone working in the online space in any capacity right now
feels a little bit burned out byit.
I don't think any, even even people whose job is influencer,
that's all they do, right? Because chronically being online
is there's a lot going on. It can be, it can be mentally,
physically, emotionally exhausting.
(03:46):
And you know, ever since social media became the thing that it
is in our world, there has been this, I think mythology around
how to market your offers and how to be a business in the
world that it's necessary, required.
And you know, you're not going to make it if you don't have
like a big social media following or something like
(04:08):
that. And having been in business for
a long time and seen all the same stalwart marketing
principles, and the things that have always worked work.
Every single time there's a new piece of technology, every time
we level up and there's new waysto do things, the same things
are always true. Have a really solid quality
offer that delivers real resultsfor real human beings at a price
(04:33):
point that makes sense and tell really good stories to get
people to understand that you'rethe person that can help them.
Like that stays the same no matter if we're online, offline,
you know, no matter how you set up your funnel to attract new
clients or to do sales. So you can be chronically online
and do all the things, but you can also not do that at all.
(04:56):
And I have a couple clients who just are allergic to the
Internet, don't want to do any social media.
And that's fine because there's lots of ways to set up an
operation for your business thatallows you to live the lifestyle
that you want to live. So yeah, I mean, I it's kind of,
it's kind of one of my favorite things ever is to kind of ideate
with people. What is your unique set of steps
(05:19):
that is the pathway to your special thing that you do.
And it's very different for every single person, even if
we're all in the same niche and have the same exact ideal client
and we saw the exact same product because I'm me, it's
going to be different the way I do it than than, you know, the
way you ladies might do it. So I think we even get like the
idea of how do you be holistic about your business is starting
(05:42):
with the belief that you can have a lifestyle that is, that
feels good and you don't have togo, you know, bend over
backwards and do things that that don't feel good, whatever
that looks like for you. You know, so not necessarily a
direct answer to your question, but I got, I got to that place
trying all the things and realizing some things don't work
(06:02):
for for me, some things don't work for some of my clients.
Everything kind of works in terms of marketing your
business, but it's important that you start with your core
values and figure out like, whatare the things that I'm really
happy about doing? Because the things that we're
not happy about doing, guess what leads to burnout?
And it happens quickly with the online space that that happens
(06:26):
very quickly for people is that they feel overwhelmed when they
don't get the response that they're trying to get right
away. They spend all this time
creating like an amazing, you know, short form video that
really speaks to their client. It really puts all the pieces in
place and shares about their offer.
And then they get like no likes,no.
So it just gets scrolled down byand they've just spent half a
(06:47):
day like shooting this little feature film, right?
And they're exhausted. And then there's nothing,
nothing happens. It just goes away.
It's gone. It's out there somewhere, but no
one even saw it. I think that leads to burnout
really quick. So yeah, I'm I'm out here trying
to help my clients, not burnout.Absolutely, Deborah, I have to
(07:07):
say that you're absolutely right.
The marketing burnout is real. But this, this concept that we
can almost reverse engineer our marketing efforts as solo
entrepreneurs to, you know, makeit work for us so that it is not
only holistic but also sustainable is absolute music to
(07:31):
my ears. Because so many people talk
about the formulas that you haveto follow for social media.
You know, like these these rulesare unwavering.
And in order to like hack the algorithm or whatever, you know,
that you absolutely have to poston this platform once a day and
on this platform three times a day.
(07:53):
And that's not only is that not sustainable for everybody's
lifestyle, but to your point earlier, for some people, it's
just not a preference. You know, like, unfortunately,
social media in so many ways is a necessary evil in terms of
marketing yourself and getting yourself out there.
But I would really love to know more about like how these
(08:17):
different styles can be manifested.
So for example, like if somebodyreally wants to dial in or like
be super focused with their marketing efforts, could you
could you walk me through what that might look like?
Yeah, absolutely. So, So for me, I think about, so
(08:38):
basically the idea generally speaking is if you have a
product or a service, you also have a capacity, what is your
capacity to serve. So if you offer a one-on-one
consultation, let's just say you're an accountant, I'm just
making this up obviously, but and you can really only do your
job and deliver your offer one to one because you don't have a
(09:01):
course yet or a group coaching program or a community.
What you do is you meet with your client for an hour or two
hours and you go through their taxes or their bills or
whatever. That's your job.
You have to, you have to determine what your capacity is
to serve and what the price point is.
That's like basically the offer creation process.
Then from there, all the marketing is, is getting as many
(09:21):
eyeballs as possible on how you solve a problem with your offer,
with your product or service. And that can be done a million
different ways, right? You could basically write to
your local newspaper and position yourself as the expert
accountant in your hometown and have a little column where now
you're, you're an expert basically on a, a print
(09:43):
newspaper that's distributed throughout the whole town that
you're from. Like that's that.
There's no social media involvedin getting that kind of
attention, but you're being positioned as an expert.
So there's obviously public relations like that, right?
And at the end of the day, the formula is going to be building
an audience of people who want to buy your product or service.
So why social media has been such an interesting development
(10:07):
and why it works so well is because it employs what is one
of the most sticky ways to market something, which is word
of mouth. So if if you have a lot of
followers and you have a lot of people reposting and sharing
your content on a social platform, there's this automatic
authority that gets built there.So post something about your
(10:30):
podcast, for example, and then Irepost it.
All of my, all the people in my little audience are going to
think that you're more importantbecause I've taken the time like
it's automatic validation, automatic authority.
So that's why social media is such a quick way to build, you
know, whatever, But the formula is just create an audience,
(10:51):
nurture an audience, care about your audience, serve your
audience and offer them opportunities to pay you for
your higher, you know, value of work, right?
So no matter, no matter what, that's the same.
The way to grow that audience isfor since caveman days is tell
good stories. Like the best marketing is just
(11:11):
storytelling. So so especially now we're kind
of in this era of the personal brand, right?
Like, the more we get to know you, the more likely we're going
to gravitate towards you when weneed whatever you do.
So those little nuanced things about your life, like that
favorite rock'n'roll band that you had a concert to get to, you
(11:32):
know, just funny stories about things that have happened in
your life when you maybe failed and then got back up again.
Or, you know, an interaction with a person or a client that
shows not only social proof thatyou worked with a client, but
also shows how you help them. All those stories shape the the
perspective of your audience. And that can be done in so many
(11:53):
different ways that it does not have to be done through social
media. I'll give you a quick example.
I have a client who she's in English as a second language
teacher. And specifically she had a
background working in the court system in New Jersey.
And she, her burning passion wasto help new American immigrants
(12:14):
who are new green card holders, not only learn to speak the
language in the way that she didwhen she first moved here 40
years ago. So learning the slang, learning
like the proper use of American terminology, American, I mean,
just basically using the Englishlanguage in a way that it feels
natural so they feel more comfortable.
(12:34):
But also she wants to teach themtheir basic civil liberties.
So if they get pulled over by a cop, they have the right to
remain silent. Like they know that they're
allowed to have an attorney thatthey know like really basic
stuff that could really, really help them, right?
So she did not want to do socialmedia.
She's in her mid 60s. Just felt like she missed that
(12:54):
ship and was like, I just can't do this.
So I said no problem. What we need is an audience and
great storytelling. We don't need to do social
media. What we'll do instead is we'll
create a Zoom meeting room that's a weekly open house.
Come to the. So we created all of her offers
and we created, you know, specific little classes, a trip
(13:16):
to the bank, how to speak to thegrocer, like all these little
niche classes that are like, youknow, a few dollars each,
virtual classes, they all exist so anybody can buy them on her
website. Then she just started opening a
room once a week for 45 minutes and literally it's her in there
reading the newspaper. Oh wow.
That's what that did for her. So she told the woman who worked
(13:40):
in the building that she lives in.
If you know anybody that wants to learn better English, tell
them to come to this thing. All you have to do is click one
link. So you can do that from any
smartphone. So it's really low tech.
So even these people who don't have any working knowledge of
her, who can't read English or whatever, they're clicking this
link now they're in the room with her and she's there with
the newspaper. So she's reading the newspaper
and then basically they're like speaking in English with her.
(14:02):
They're getting super high value, right?
They're getting like, dialogue is the quickest way to learn a
language. And then they're telling their
friends, they're telling their neighbors, they're telling their
aunt, they're telling word of mouth.
So she's like, oh, I'm, I'm MissLulu.
It's Miss Lulu's ESL Academy. At the end of each open house,
she just drops the link to her website.
And that's where all her classesare.
(14:23):
It's the, it's like the, it's the most genius funnel because
it's all, it's all word of mouth.
She has done 0 advertising and she's getting week after week,
people are coming into this thing learning about her offer
and buying from her. But she had to see that and she
had to build the back end of that first.
But my point is, I guess like, you know, that's one of my
favorite examples of like how tocompletely circumnavigate social
(14:45):
media. You know, when we first started
out, we were going to build her like a little YouTube channel or
maybe open up an Instagram page just for the ESL Academy.
And it was just the heaviest lift for her.
She just, she's it was it was paralyzing her, right?
She could not envision doing what that would take.
And I was like, OK, great, let'sgo a different route.
(15:08):
It would be really easy. Now she has a little flyer in
the local library that with AQR code, they scan that, it takes
them right to her website. It's just so simple.
So because she has an offer thatpeople need and she delivers it
in a way that feels safe to people and people are talking
about it, she's building an audience naturally.
(15:29):
And, and what we did was we set up an e-mail marketing situation
for her so that I, I would say like, you know, 1 undeniable
core piece of a, a growable, scalable marketing system is
going to be a proprietary e-maillist.
And even though e-mail marketingis kind of like dinosaur these
days, with all the like fancy ways that you can quickly
(15:49):
connect to people, I swear by having a, a list of people who
have said, yes, you can have my e-mail and, and nurturing those
people. Those are going to be your
warmest leads at any given time.They're going to be the ones
that have built trust with. They're going to be the people
who love hearing your stories week after week, who learn from
you, who listen to your podcast,who want to read your book, who
(16:11):
will come to a workshop they're most likely to buy from you.
So that that being set up on theback end, I think is a critical
foundational tool for any solopreneur.
And then just slowly growing that list by being present in
places where your ideal client hangs out.
And I think if you are, you know, there's like an
(16:31):
interesting thing happening withlike millennial business owners
who, what I see anyways, my, my lens on it is like there is an
age range of people who grew up with the Internet.
And so if your business was born, if you, if you only ever
knew life on the Internet, you probably don't feel the same as
some of the people in the older age groups.
(16:53):
So it's interesting to watch some of them.
I, I, I learned a lot from them.They're really, they have 0
barrier to entry with just like selling on stories all day long.
Like they have no problem doing that.
But that is not most people. It's not.
And so I think for most people, the most important thing to
(17:13):
consider when you're thinking about how do I share my work and
really build my audience is whatare the stories in my zone of
expertise that make me who I am?What are my special skills?
What are my lived experiences that where I where I won, where
I failed, where I learned something, where something
that's just special about you? What's your favorite recipe?
You know, what's your dog's name?
(17:33):
Like, we care about those thingsbecause as human beings, we are
innately curious. So if you start a story and you
say, hey, I was walking down thestreet the other day and all of
a sudden I saw this giant balloon pop and out came this
crazy blue liquid. So that took me 3 or 4 seconds
to say that story. I have to know what was in the
(17:56):
balloon. Now, like maybe 8% of human
beings are going to stick aroundto find out what was in the
balloon. Like, that's just in our human
nature. So storytelling is this
mechanism with a beginning, middle and an end that you open
a loop. And as human beings who are both
curious and complicated and we want to close the loop.
So we want to know the end of the story.
We want the result that you, we want to know what happens next.
(18:19):
So really the most basic thing that anyone needs to do is tell
good stories in a place where your ideal client is listening
to stories that could be on the Internet, but it could be in a
really comfortable, cozy, private community space that you
build basically for free, right?You can have just, you could
literally say, hey everyone, once a week I'm opening a Zoom
(18:42):
and I'm going to share 3. Each week I'm going to share 3
tips and my niche expertise. I promise you that we'll grow
word of mouth like wildfire if you're good at what you do and
you're helping them and you tellgood stories and that's it.
They're going to tell everybody,yo, I'm going to this Zoom with
this lady who is an expert and Ican't believe it's free.
(19:05):
They're going to feel like they're getting so much value
because you're in the actual space with them and that
connection feels good and they're getting something out of
it. They're going to tell their
friend. And that's the same as why
social media actually works. Absolutely, Deborah, mind blown.
The concept of being able to, tomarket your services and, and
(19:27):
what you're doing without socialmedia, even just with a simple
Zoom room, that's incredible. Like I, I feel like that is the
especially for everybody, like we said, who you know, is
experiencing marketing burnout. That is the inspirational story
that we needed today. And I think there's so many,
especially women, I just have tocall it out who are struggle
(19:50):
with visibility issues because of the way we were raised.
Like, if you really want to get down to it, like I, when I do
live, whatever, if I'm speaking on a stage or if I'm going on a,
you know, any kind of video connection.
It's one thing if I'm working with a client, obviously I want
to peer professional and well groomed and you know, like
(20:10):
healthy and vibrant. But we, we women, we tend.
To really hyper focus on our appearance and just a funny
piece. There's layers to it.
Is your hair done? Is there, is your makeup right?
Are people going to be judging you?
Like we were raised to believe we were just shown image after
image of this like perfect, ideal woman.
(20:34):
And whether or not we bought into that aesthetic and that
idea, it was, it was shoved downour throats from a young age.
So women raised in the in America have been preconditioned
to be concerned about visibility, whether or not we
admit it, whether or not we dealwith it, whether or not we
excavate it, it's, it's layered into our psyche.
It's in there, right? So you can be a woman who says,
(20:57):
I don't really care what anyone thinks.
You can be a rebel, you can be ariot girl, you can be a total
hardcore feminist and block the conditioning.
But that does not forgo that. The conditioning is there.
There we are, you know, with social media being the like,
quickest and fastest way to what, go viral and get in front
of a million eyeballs. It's just like not the right
(21:18):
formula for a lot of people. And trying to compete in that
marketplace in that way is exhausting.
It's it's at the end of one day,you're like, I'm done.
I give up. You want to, you want to quit
running your business, you know,giving up on your passion
because you can't what, like getlike traction on a stupid app?
It's insane. I, I so appreciate all of this,
(21:41):
Deborah. I, I almost wish I'd met you a
year ago just because I one of the first things that happened
when I shifted from a more corporate space to to starting
out coaching and consulting business was that dread that I
had worked. I was so proud of myself because
(22:03):
I had finally gotten off of all social media with the exception
of LinkedIn, right? It was such a great feeling.
I felt so free. And then, you know, I did the
tiniest bit of research and everyone was like, if you're
doing coaching and consulting, it's LinkedIn and social media
and that's it. That's it.
That's how you market. And no one said that there were
(22:25):
any other options. Like they're really, it was
either that or like sign up for conferences, which is fine, but
you know, cost a decent amount of money and doesn't always.
It wasn't necessarily the, the venue for me.
And to your point, Deborah, I, I'm so aware of because the
(22:46):
reason I say all this, I was burnt out from social media just
by being a woman in the world, just by being a feminist in the
world, just by being someone whohas political beliefs in the
world. Right.
Yeah. It's hard to know.
Do I go online and and be like, hey everyone, we're starving
children in Gaza or do I be like, hey everyone, I'm a coach
come by my offer like you have to check, yes.
(23:10):
Such a good point, Such a good point.
Oh, I know for me that that paralyzes me, like having values
that I, I'm like, how can we, how can we be ignoring these
things and talking about it's a fine line you have to navigate
if you're online, if you're on social media.
Absolutely. So like our audience really does
(23:30):
want to have that personal connection with us.
And in doing so, they also want to know, they want to make sure
that their beliefs are aligned with ours because people are
becoming more and more consciousof how they're spending their
money, where they're spending their money.
And so it's, it is a fine line to walk in terms of like how you
(23:52):
Telegraph what your principles are so that your audience knows
that they're aligned with you, but not falling into those
niches where people want to makeit all about arguing all day,
because even even if they're conversations that need to be
had in a holistic way, that can lead to burnout too.
And of course it the whole reason we like we as
(24:16):
solopreneurs are in those spaceson online is to show our offer.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am so politically right.
Like with all the things that are happening in this country,
we're at a volatile breaking point.
We're at a fever pitch point where we're basically in like
(24:38):
non yet we're in a civil war, right?
We're in a we're divided. And so like it's really touchy.
It's it's touchy to go out publicly and express your values
if you have beliefs that align with one or the other.
Quote side. I think it's interesting to me
because I really believe like the facade of us being pitted
(25:01):
against each other is really truly just a facade.
We're all essentially want the same things.
We want security, we want to be healthy, we want to have, you
know, opportunity. We want to feel like our life
has a purpose. Like that's the human condition.
Most people, you know, that's really all we really want,
right? Definitely some people are like,
no, I want to be a billionaire and like own space or whatever.
(25:22):
But there's most people, most the average human being is like,
I want security, I want to feel safe.
I want to have like a little piece, I want to have a little
property where I can do whateverI do.
And I want to have a purpose with my life and have a healthy
family. And so I think that we're more
alike than different. And I try not to buy into the
like fear mongering stuff that is perpetuated online.
(25:44):
But I also feel strongly for me,I've made the choice and this
was a difficult choice. I'm not going to not speak my
values because I can't live withmyself if I don't.
I'm also not going to stop selling my offer because that's
my business. And it took me, I think being
I've been self-employed for 18 years.
(26:05):
I have put the, you know, rubberto the road.
I've put the work in a long enough that I, I don't feel like
I have to justify that anymore. Like if you're following me on
my business page, please regard that as my business marketing
channel and expect me to sell from there.
Like that's why I have it. That's why I built this.
(26:26):
You're following me because I can help you.
So sometimes it's free help, sometimes it's paid help.
I speak about my job here. I also speak about my beliefs
here because that's who I am andI think that that does matter.
But every single time I want to create a social media post that
is going to have like a political ratification or some
(26:47):
could be construed as controversial in some way, I
get, I try to get really I I checked in with my nervous
system first, like is this goingto benefit me?
Why am I doing this? What is the point?
Am I trying to get attention or is this something that I can't
live with myself if I don't say it?
And I, I kind of run myself through a couple of questions
like am I just trying to be relevant and have a, you know,
(27:10):
be seen, which is not of the right motivation.
If it's because I want my ideal client who's out there watching
me to know that I'm a leader andI'm not afraid, that's valuable.
And if it's because I can't livewithout letting people know this
is who I am, that's valuable. But if it's just kind of like
(27:30):
draw more attention or something, I don't think that's
the right purpose for that kind of content, which I think people
get. I think it's just good to check
in with yourself before you put anything on the Internet.
Is this a service? You know, and and you can, you
know, it's your social media. You can say whatever you want.
You can be like, my dog is getting a bath today.
Great. Or you could be like, hey, I'm
(27:51):
launching a brand new program today.
Come on over. And I think it's just more about
just checking in with yourself, you know, what is this?
What's the goal here? Absolutely, Deborah, this is
this is so rich. And and I feel like I could say
50 things based on what you're saying.
And, and this is new too. Like I really appreciate that
we're having this conversation and that we're having it now
(28:11):
because we have, we've touched on burnout because of the
political moment. We've touched on burnout because
of, you know, being in business or being in the corporate space
or burnout because of masking. But this is, this is a, this is
unique, right? It's, it's the burnout that
comes from being on social mediaor living out loud using your
(28:33):
voice, whether it's on social media or not.
But I do think, and you can tellme if what your experience has
been, there's something about living out loud on social media
that kind of, I think people feel a little more emboldened to
push back or to say things that they would never say to your
face. So it is a choice that you make
(28:55):
knowing that, you know, you might get some pretty harsh
responses. But I think what I'm thinking
about right now, you mentioned before the the values piece and
how every time that I attend a course on leadership or even on
marketing, it always starts withvalues and it starts with who
(29:17):
are you? You know, what are you offering?
What are what are you giving? What need are you meeting right?
But also what are your values? And I think what I'm hearing
you, I'm extrapolating from whatyou're saying is like know your
values before you start to market, before you start to to
talk about your business, beforeyou build your website.
(29:39):
Because not only is it good to have just one clear message from
a marketing perspective, but also it seems like every day
there are you're making micro choices around that.
You don't always have the time to just like analyze or what is
(30:00):
this going to look like next week, a month, a year, five
years, right? How is this going to look down
the road? Because often times it's rapid
fire choices. You talked about checking in and
I'm wondering, Deborah, for you,like how did you, what was it
like to finally choose? Like this is my voice, this is
(30:20):
how I'm going to use it, even ifif there are negative
consequences. Yeah, that's a good question.
I mean, so it's so kind of a multi layer answer, but I will
say prior. So right now my business is 100%
online. I'm a coach, I have a course
that I sell, I have a hybrid group coaching program and I do
(30:43):
one-on-one technical build out of funnels for people.
So some clients just hire me, they're like, I don't have time
to do this, help me strategize and build the thing and it's
lead generation and sales, right?
So around there. But I should say all of my
clients are these sort of soulful, you know, purpose
driven. I work with a lot of people who
who care. So they're not just like they'll
(31:03):
be a funnel. Like we do the work together.
I coach them a little bit on howto get to the place where
they're like really stoked abouttheir offer.
But then sometimes I just do thework for them.
And and then I also have a groupcoaching program where we move
through the program together. And that business, the, the
entire model of this business was built based on what I
(31:24):
consider to be like a failed business model from my first
business. And I call it failed business
model because it was not a business model.
It was me just piling more and more things on top of my To Do
List. So as the business grew and
scaled, I was like entrenched inthe core function of it.
And it could not, it could not function without me.
(31:46):
Like the longest break I ever took in the 15 year span of
running that business was 2 weeks.
And the whole time I was gone, Iwas like, is this going to fall
apart while I'm gone? Like I just, I built a business
that could not function without me and LED to serious burnout.
Like I really did go through, I would say about a two year
(32:07):
period of recovery from the level of exhaustion that I felt
when I shut down completely. My first business.
I was still working, but it was like I was dysfunctional.
And so now when new clients comeinto my business or if I work
with the person for, you know, from scratch or if they, the
first module in my course is about the foundational stuff
(32:32):
that is going to help you stay really stable when the boat
rocks and build a structure and A and an operation for your
business that prioritizes your Wellness.
Because if you don't, you are building on a foundation that's
missing the most key element of your whole life.
So now my clients, we, we start with like literally what do you
(32:54):
want your day to look like? And we do an exercise around
core values, which is really fun, actually.
It's an opportunity to kind of look back at your whole life and
say, what are all the things that I have already
accomplished? Even if you go all the way back
to high school when you won likethe tennis match or like what
are the things that you that arehighlights, the highlight reel
(33:15):
of the things that make you mostproud about your life?
Why did they make you feel proud?
Did you, you know, collect all the Girl Scout badges and now
you have like this really? Do you have pride around having,
you know, a completed some type of program in your life or
serving, you know, volunteer kitchen work at, you know, some
type of a shelter? Or is it a trip that you took
(33:38):
that was just an exciting adventure you went on that you
gave yourself permission to do? Like what are the things that
matter the most when you look back and the accomplishments and
the skills, the experiences and when you start to look at this
giant list, it's like a one pagedocument.
That's just all the things that you're that are kind of like the
highlight reel you start to see.Oh, I was always doing something
(33:59):
in service to women. Oh, I was always making sure
that it was ethical. I never used those unethical
tactics. Oh, I was always really clear
about the financial piece, and Ialways made sure that everybody
got paid really well inside thatbusiness.
That's a core value. That your employees are treated
(34:20):
like human beings is a core value.
That women should be treated equal as men is a core value.
That you know that and you can, there can be lots of core values
that are a little bit more aesthetic and esoteric, but
there's going to be some foundational beliefs that are
who you are based on your lived experience and what drove you to
make certain decisions. And we don't think about that
(34:42):
all day long in like a lump sum,because when you do this
exercise, it can help you to just realize like, oh, I do have
core values. I've lived them.
Look what I did there, there, there and there.
And that's all the same thing. And it helps you to kind of
realize I'm bringing the, and you can then you can sit and
sort what am I bringing with me into building my brand voice?
(35:04):
So in answer to the question, like when I decided I was going
to completely, I mean, I, the pandemic helps me make a
decision about my service based business.
It was not, we had to shut down,you know, catering, A catering
citywide catering company, multiple pop up juice bars.
Like it was a big operation thatgot shut down.
But I was, I was thrilled. I was burned out.
(35:24):
So I was like, and I don't have to ever do that again.
So, you know, I was like actually really genuinely like,
wow, somebody up there in the higher, you know, realm of
quantum energy is taking care ofme because I no longer ever have
to do a 5:00 AM pickup of 12 cases of cucumbers.
We're good just kind of like that was really that was
(35:47):
information, right. The relief that I felt when my
multifaceted, you know, multi six and seven figure business
operation was shut down and I was like ecstatic.
That's pretty big information. No, no, no, no amount of money
will ever replace you having a, a, a lifestyle that you feel
safe, comfortable, healthy and like your life is on track to,
(36:12):
to experience the joy that you're after.
Like so we built these businesses and we, and we're
chasing money and we're chasing validation, or at least I was as
a younger entrepreneur straight up.
And you get to this place where you reach the financial goal
that you thought you were after,and you're miserable.
Or in my case, I was. I was not happy because I was.
I was working from 5:00 AM to like 7:00 PM every day because
(36:35):
the business couldn't run without me always being on.
I was always on. That's a recipe for disaster.
So now I had to take a major step back and say what?
What do I really, really can't care about?
What is the hill that I will dieon?
What are the things I can take from what I learned from doing
business and that I will stand on and, you know, slap my name
(36:59):
on any day and what are the things that I have to own were
actually really like cracked foundation from the get go.
And a lot of that is like ego woven into business decisions
like proving energy. That was young life stuff that I
have to really just own, be honest about, and then release
(37:22):
with love, right? And say like, OK, we did that.
We were, you know, making decisions based on the wrong set
of criteria. And so now finding my voice and
being comfortable with who I am as a business owner, it really
does look like when I say this to my mother, when I say this to
my best friend, if I would say this to the core, found my
husband, the people in my life who I trust and value their
(37:44):
opinion more than anybody, then I should be able to say it to my
audience. And so if I believe, you know, a
certain thing that happens to be, I don't know, like these
issues that are now becoming political issues should almost
some of them should not be like,nobody should be like, yeah,
we're just going to ignore, you know, wholesale starvation of an
entire country of human beings like that, that or whatever,
(38:06):
right. So there's some things where I
think it's just more humanitarian crisis and we feel
helpless. But there's some things where it
is your opinion that you're going to go out into public
spaces and share, I think run yourself through a foundational
checklist like are these things that I'll I'll die on Matt Hill
and I'll defend this even if I get attacked for it.
(38:28):
Interesting thing that I want toadd, which is that if you listen
to people in the social media space who I think are like who,
who have a lot of followers because what they do is
successful. So like Instagram, social media
managers and people who, who strategize specifically for like
LinkedIn or Facebook groups or whatever they will, you will
(38:51):
hear the the piece of advice that strategically for you to
stand out against your competition, you need to have
contrarian content. Contrarian content is obviously
finding a trend on the Internet that is like everyone's saying,
do this and then taking either astance against that or exerting
(39:11):
an opinion, you know, inserting your opinion to stand out
against that. And the purpose of being
contrarian is to get seen by people as a leader.
So it's people will tell you strategically and advise you to
create contrarian content. However, if you create
contrarian content, you're inviting dissent.
(39:32):
You're saying, come argue with me, come say why you think I'm
wrong. And key there is that any
reaction bubbles you up in the algorithm and gets more eyeballs
on your content. So there are some people for
whom their entire strategy is contrarian, right?
They're just going to go out there all day long and say
disagree with the gurus and and tell you why you're not going to
(39:53):
do this good. And it's, it's a social media
strategy to to become a target essentially because.
At the end of the day, it's going to rapidly grow your
audience, get all those eyeballson your offer.
And it's a numbers game. So we know statistically that if
your offer is good and you have proven results, all you need to
do is amplify the eyeballs on your thing.
(40:16):
And so people go out there and they create these like, not
values based, not like identity,solid pieces of content just to
like throw a punch in the open marketplace because they know
that's going to invite a little kerfuffle.
And that's what they want. They want to be seen.
(40:37):
And so they don't care if their content is values based at all.
It's it's a strategy that a lot of people use.
I'm not going to say it's unethical.
It's not what I want to do, but it's kind of just not authentic,
right? It's like not really aligned
with who you are as a person. Or, or maybe it is, maybe you're
a contrarian person who just wants to fight in the
marketplace. But the reason I bring it up is
(40:59):
because like, once again, like that's an entire strategy that
that that is like not at all aligned with something like a
core value or an identity. And I think if you're somebody
who cares deeply about being aligned in your business, you
(41:21):
know, who wants to be of serviceto a certain type of person for
whom core values are going to really matter, then I would, I
would honestly, you know, advisecreating a, a lead generation
strategy and a sales strategy that don't rely on social media
at all. Because the way to use social
media as your top of funnel is going to require you to
(41:43):
constantly, like you were saying, like put put out, you
know, be living life out loud out there, you know, to keep the
to keep the eyeballs on your stuff, on your content.
Right. It's it's tough.
Yeah. And, and Deborah, I, I really
appreciate you calling out the, the recognition of what's
(42:04):
happening in a lot of advertising right now and in
terms of being contrarian simplyfor the purpose of getting in
front of more eyes and getting more conversations going.
And the more conversations I've seen even like within the, you
know, marketing and like the retail and like relevant
industries, the more that even the industry is recognizing
(42:27):
that, yes, these strategies are getting a lot of eyes on them,
but they're not translating to sales.
And that's why, you know, they're, they're looking at so
many of these marketing teams, you know, having to switch their
strategies because it's, it's not just about everybody talking
about your, your product or yourservice.
(42:48):
Because if the only thing that'shappening is people talking and
not buying, then it's not, it's not getting to your offer.
You know, the, the core of what we've been talking about this
whole time. Like the the story has to
support whatever your call to action is.
And when we separate from our principles and our values, then
(43:13):
people automatically see that this is not authentic messaging.
And I love how you capture so comprehensively and with so much
heart, almost like this juxtaposition of a visual of
like our principal foundations and the like, the foundational
(43:36):
role of storytelling. Because when you tell stories
that you are connected with at their very core, and that core
is also related to what you do, then you get to use both at the
same time. And it's almost like, you know,
if you open up a Lego set and like half the pieces are
(43:56):
missing, it's not going to be the, the finished product.
And so you've got to use all of your building blocks, all of the
building blocks that make who you are as a person to present
yourself and your your offer to your audience.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's also what makes
marketing fun because think, think about it.
(44:18):
There's a bazillion business coaches.
I'm one of bazillion, literally.And so why choose me?
Well, I play the acoustic guitar.
Like that's just one teeny detail that makes me different
than the woman sitting next to me who doesn't, you know what
I'm saying? Like, I don't have any pets, but
I do have a bear that walks through my backyard every day.
(44:38):
Now, you know I have a bear in my yard.
So you're starting to get more of a picture, right?
It's like already we're one stepdeeper into each other's worlds
just by these little nuanced, the shaping of your story and
the environment that you know, the way that you present the the
thing that you sell, I think is best is best housed in the the,
(44:59):
the sort of everyday details of who you actually are as a living
a life person. That's what makes it
interesting. That's going to make me say, oh,
I want to work with her because she also really loves picking
blueberries, you know, or so I don't know, I'm making that up.
But like the details are where we find our, the hooks, you
know, So I think, I think storytelling, not only is it the
(45:21):
most, you know, magnetic way to capture the attention of your
audience, but it's also where you're transferring those
little, those little tidbits that whether you realize it or
not, or helping your audience decide whether or not you're
aligned. Well, and that's coming from a
place of alignment and not disagreement.
(45:43):
Too, Because I think like, you know, traditional marketing is
like you whenever you like. If you think about marketing as
the way it was, let's say in the80s, you probably think about
like, you know, some cheesy usedcar salesman commercial or
something like, you know, this is the best deal in town.
Kind of like these ads that we grew up with that are kind of
that shape our idea of what salesman are like and what it is
(46:06):
like to be that kind of person. But I think that, you know, the
Internet, you know, say what youwant about it, but it's given us
this really big platform on which to test out a lot of
different things. And I actually love social media
as top of funnel for the people for whom it is a good fit.
I think that's a personality like type issue.
(46:26):
I think that's really like, it really is about capacity codes,
right? Do you have the capacity to
connect in that way with a largenumber of people and manage it?
If you do, awesome, that's goingto be helpful.
But no matter what, I want you to have that foundation set up
behind the scenes so that any way that you open a door to your
(46:47):
world and invite people in, whether it's, you know,
literally I have a client who I'm like, let's just go hang a
flyer down at the farmer's market in your town because same
thing she does. My other client that really
could not see herself getting onsocial media, she just, it was
like a hell no. And I was like, great.
We created like some training videos for her.
(47:07):
She's a gut health coach and shespecifically makes fermented
foods. So she, her passion is to help
people heal their gut through fermented beats and things like
that. Awesome.
So specific. Lots of people want to learn
this. She created a video.
We put it up online so you can easily go find it.
You can buy this little trainingand work with her directly.
(47:27):
How are we going to let people know about it?
We literally hung Flyers in her town with QR codes that go to
the thing and it that story, when you get to the thing, you
find out that 7 generations of women in her family have been
passing down this recipe. So already you want the recipe
because it's 7 generations of women in Russian, her family,
(47:47):
she's Russian. And it was like this really
fantastic story and all they have all of amazing skin and
she's like, ah, my skin's like this because I do gut health.
Like that's the whole promo. But it's like the story is so
fascinating right from the get go, we just tell the story of
her great, great, great grandmother and and you can see
her skin is amazing, right? And then she there's the recipe
and you can get it for, you know, whatever this low price
(48:10):
point, it's so easy to just put your money in and buy and get
the recipe and work with her to learn this thing.
And it's very aligned with you know who she is.
And it's a Safeway for her to market her product and make
sales of a digital video. That's just, it's Evergreen.
You can buy it right now. So it's an easy thing for her to
create. It leads to people working
(48:31):
one-on-one with her. But she doesn't want to do
social media. But if she were to do social
media, all she needs to do is create.
You know, she could create an Instagram channel or a TikTok
and make little videos of her inher kitchen.
All that's going to do is put gasoline on that fire.
But the fire is already burning.She has a back end system that
(48:52):
is automated in Evergreen. So no matter where people come
from, whether it's the farmer's market, word of mouth, or if she
were to decide to do something to amplify her reach, like, you
know, go on the local news, pitch herself to be in an
article in a magazine, speak on a stage or like we said, social
media. To me, social media is just one
of the many ways you can amplifyyour reach.
(49:14):
And so I want no matter what I want you to have a back end
operation that's tested, tried, true and running smoothly before
you, you know, spend any of yourtime doing any of the marketing
things that you might do. Absolutely Well, you heard it
here folks. The answer is not always social
media. And Deborah knows exactly like
all of the different and even non traditional ways of
(49:38):
marketing your work. This, this is so incredibly
special and, and I have to say this, this message that there is
not only one way to do things for your business in a holistic
way is so incredibly inspiring. And I think it's also a really
great way of looking at the different ways that we can meet
(50:01):
our audience too, because like when when we actually take a
step back and consider all the different ways that we can reach
our audience, we have to recognize that, you know, not
everybody is looking for services or products on social
media like are some of our audience is not on there on any
of the platforms. And so it's also a tribute to
(50:25):
recognizing the desire to connect with our audience over
like wanting of a follower countor like the that engagement or
you know, something of that nature and showing that
dedication to connecting with our audience first and foremost.
Yeah, I think that's that's Ground Zero.
(50:45):
It's just like who do you want to serve?
How can have a conversation withthem?
And that that is like the first really important rung on the
ladder. And it may lead you to creating
social media accounts that servethat purpose.
But I like to think about it like if you're really clear,
(51:06):
like let's say you what you do for a living is bake bread and
you have this recipe like crystal clear, you've got it
down pat. It's anybody can learn this and
they can make their own bread. Well, that's a really awesome
thing that you can sell to people, share with people, teach
people, whatever. Now you just have to think to
yourself, who are the people whoare going to most want to learn
(51:26):
my bread recipe? And how can I get them all
together in a room and serve them one to many?
That's the way they like, right?Scaling your income is going to
be about, you know, amplifying the way you can connect to
people. And again, like, what is the
capacity that you have? But there's also just so many
different ways that you can build that audience, invite them
(51:51):
into like, I think of it as likesafe spaces in your house, Like
your, your, your online presenceis like you built a little house
on the Internet and what's inside that house is your offers
and your marketing is all the different pathways that lead to
your house. So it's good to have an online
presence to have, you know, either an e-mail service
provider with a public fronting page or a website or a community
(52:11):
space, whatever it is, because then you have a digital home
base. But there's a lot of ways to
invite people inside there. And yeah, I think it's, it's
really important that people don't force themselves to do
things they don't want to do. That's never going to, that's
never going to work. I will say Lindy, for speaking
(52:31):
about just specifically for the coaching industry, I, I just
released a podcast episode about, I did a bunch of research
on kind of like what are the tophighest converting funnels
specifically for coaches and service providers?
And besides speaking on stage, like being presented by an
organization and being told likethis is an expert, she's going
(52:53):
to speak and then just flashing AQR code where there's, you
know, if you get presented on a stage, obviously you're top of
the game. You've been hired to speak
publicly. That's a pretty big audience,
but a really fantastic mechanismis the good old fashioned
webinar. And they are still working like
(53:13):
gangbusters to convert coaching clients.
And you can simply run an ad to a landing page for whatever the
topic is of your expertise. And that's what I've been doing
for many, many years. I teach couple times a month for
free. And at the end there's always,
how can you work with me? I I away from like big, you
(53:36):
know, gratuitous launches because they just, they burned
me out and I was like, Oh my God, I don't want to do this.
And so if I don't want to do it,there's got to be another way.
And what I do love doing is these micro classrooms where
you're leaving with a ton of value, whether or not you ever
decide to work with me. I serve my mission, which is
helping more women build, you know, scale their businesses and
(53:58):
earn more money because you wentoff and took that nugget and you
applied it and you got some place.
And, you know, if 20 people cometo a webinar, at least five of
them are probably going to take me up on a, you know, a
discovery call or check out my offers.
So it's like, it's just an easy,fun way to actually get a room
(54:19):
with people. They can feel your energy.
They learn something and they take away some value.
Whether or not they buy, it often leads to a sale.
And it's like a low stakes ways to just connect authentically.
And and I was, I do that already.
So I was really happy to see statistically that it's also
considered still in 2025, one ofthe most high converting
(54:41):
funnels. Let's stop doing it in quotes
because the it's not, it doesn'tfeel like that automated
Evergreen funnel. That's like all the different
hoops that you might jump through, but it's basically just
running an ad to your event and the event is you in a room
speaking about your topic of expertise and then sharing how
people can hire you. Like super basic it it works.
(55:01):
Yeah, right. That's important information.
And Deborah, we're so we're so grateful for all of this.
I mean, I know you've shared such a wealth from your years of
experience and knowledge, but also I just, I really appreciate
your emphasis on authenticity and sustainability because I
(55:21):
think, you know, we've all heardwhatever industry we're in, you
know, we've all heard versions of become someone else in order
to either be accepted in your work or be respected or make
money, right? There's a there's, there's that
messaging everywhere in just about any space.
And I just really appreciate your your emphasis on finding
(55:45):
that foundation, sticking with your core values, be who you
are, even if it feels like you're taking a risk because
it's connected with your core values.
I think that's such an importantmessage.
And also just some really great information about, you know,
marketing a small business. This has been so valuable.
So, Deborah, thank you so much for your time and we would love
(56:08):
to know when you're not in the burnout break room, where can we
find you? Yeah, so I have a podcast, it's
called Mindset to Market. It's on every major streaming
platform. It's a weekly episodic show.
I do some solo episodes and I have some amazing guests and
it's hyper focused on supportingsolopreneurs in building
(56:32):
sustainable systems. So every single episode is some
facet of that ongoing mission. It's just to help make marketing
easier for people who have theirown business.
And my website is Deborah C smith.com and it's my name is
spelled the biblical way. It's DEBORAHCSMITH, and I have
(56:55):
links to freebies and things like that, lots of free
trainings and resources. And yeah, I'm also on Instagram.
I'm on, I'm on. I have social media accounts
kind of across the board, but mybehavior there is interestingly
like a mix of sharing what I'm working on and just kind of
glimpses of life to kind of keepit balanced in that way.
(57:18):
Yeah, wonderful. Thank you.
And Caitlin, what about you whenyou're not in the burnout break
room? Where can we find you?
Folks can find me at caitlintruehella.com and there
you can also find all my social media, everything from TikTok,
Instagram. So for everybody who's looking
for creative coaching or lookingto do an ideation session, you
(57:41):
know, have brainstorming about your your next entrepreneurship
venture and can they can get in touch with me there.
And Lindy, when you're not in the break room, where can people
find you? So Lindy larimore.com, that's
where you will find information on hiring me as a coach or
(58:04):
consulting for creating burnout free spaces.
You can also find me on Instagram and similarly you
you'll see some about my work. You might hear me sing a thing
or two and yeah, see a little bit about my life, which I now
hear from an expert is not a badidea.
So thank you. More you can be your authentic
(58:29):
self, I think the more the rightpeople are going to find you,
yeah. So we've definitely got our
homework cut out for us. Yes, yeah, I'm going to re look
at everything, but yeah, yeah, it's I think I I love that it's
Find your North Star and then and then just follow it.
Yeah. And I would just final thought
is just if you're questioning how to get to that place,
(58:51):
probably the most valuable entrepreneurial tool that I have
developed in the last 20 years is learning to listen to my gut
instinct. Just it's in your body, your gut
is going to tell you if it's a yes or a no every single time.
And you can develop that intuition by practicing
listening and just literally feeling like, do I feel sick to
(59:12):
my stomach good, Like it's pushing out of my copper zone
and I'm going to grow from this?Or do I feel sick to my stomach
bad? Like, I really don't want to do
this and I should not be doing this.
And it's in there, it's in your,it's in your, your navigation
system is like our, our natural GPS is always going to give us
the right answer. So absolutely listen to the
(59:33):
guide. Such a great, such a great mic
drop moment to end the episode on.
Thank you so much. Having me, I love the break
room. Thanks.
Thank you, Deborah. See everyone next week.
See you then. Bye.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Iâm Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and Iâm so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood youâre able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and lifeâs ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them weâve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I donât take it for granted â click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I canât wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!