October 28, 2025 • 30 mins
🕊️ What if slowing down is actually the key to success? This week, Caitlan and Lyndie talk with Kamina James about burnout recovery, money mindset, and creating work that feels good and pays well.
✍️ Kamina James coaches creatives to start and grow their freelance or small business income so they're not beholden to a 9-5 job. She's worked as an actor, a singer, a session musician, a dance teacher and more, and she and her husband have been making their living as writers since 2017 - travelling, buying a home and starting a family all while working part-time, remotely and flexible hours. Around parenting her toddler she does yoga inconsistently, listens to pop culture podcasts daily and throws last-minute cocktail parties.
Instagram & Threads: @kaminajames
📗 Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book and on a hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at caitlantrewhella.com
📙 Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach, licensed Therapist, and Consultant and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
Use our link to get 15% off your purchase of Loop earplugs to live life at your volume!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
We're your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
(00:27):
Burnout Break Room. This episode is brought to you
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(00:50):
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Hi Caitlin, how you doing? I am doing fabulous Lindy, how
are you? I'm good, I have to say.
We are in peak fall, peak leaf season here in New England and
it really is wonderful. I I got to take a moment today
(01:12):
and go for a walk in the woods with a friend and it really
filled my cup. It was really nice.
Magical. Absolutely.
I'm I'm in the middle of a performance week so which is
just far more busy than I even remember it being.
It's so nice to have so many wonderful things in my life, and
(01:35):
sometimes they all happen in thesame.
Week so I certainly. Certainly can't complain, but
it's like it's it's impressive how many things can be put into
one schedule. Absolutely.
I mean, two, I mean not just forthe weather point, but yeah,
when, when it rains, it pours. And I, I had a similar
(01:57):
experience this week and I had afull day of rain earlier in the
week and I, I swear it just has restored my soul.
And also amidst having a, a veryfull schedule and a lot of new
things put on my plate, very, very exciting things.
So I'm, I'm happy about that. Not complaining either.
But yeah, having, having that flexibility to take the time to
(02:20):
do the things that you need to and appreciate those things in
the moment are so very important.
And another reason why we're so happy to have Kamina James here
with us today as she talks aboutthe benefits of having the
flexibility to, you know, build your your work how you want to,
whether it's specifically freelance or starting your own
(02:44):
small business and living the life you want to.
She coaches creatives to start and grow their freelance or
small business income so they'renot beholden to a nine to five
job. She's worked as an actor, a
singer, a session musician and dance teacher and more.
And she and her husband have been making their living as
writers since 2017. Travelling, buying a home and
(03:04):
starting a family. All well working part time
remotely and flexible hours around parenting her toddler.
She does yoga inconsistently, listens to pop culture podcast
daily and throws last minute cocktail parties.
Kamina, welcome. We're so happy to have you here
in the break room. I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you both. Wonderful as this is the Burnout
(03:27):
Break Room podcast, I would loveto know a little bit more about
your burnout story and how it brought you to this place.
Well, I used to have this kind of big burnout story about a
burnout event, which was a real turning point in my life, and I
will definitely tell that story.But I want to say that more
recently, I've come to the realization that I have always
(03:48):
perpetuated this kind of ongoingpattern of burnout, this burnout
cycle. And for me, I have to actively
work to prevent burnout all the time just because of the way
that I'm built. And so I wanted to sort of bring
that up as well in case it's relevant for people.
For someone like me, you know, I'm neurodivergent, I'm a
perfectionist, high achiever. I have really variable energy
(04:11):
levels, but I'm also, I'm multi passionate and I love my life.
And so I tend to over commit when I have high energy and then
like crash and burn because I'vetaken on too many things or
because my energy's just unexpectedly gotten lower than I
anticipated. And that has happened to me over
and over and over again. And so I think, you know, for
(04:32):
some of us, we have to recognizeat some point that life is not
making us burned out. Like we're creating that burnout
sometimes. Like if if you've burned out
three or four times in seven years, you know, it's probably
you, Bessie. Like I say that with a lot of
love, you know, like I've had torecognise it in myself and I see
(04:54):
it in so many of my clients. So in my own life and for my
clients, I do a lot of burnout prevention now.
But like I do have like a big burnout story.
So when I was around 2627, like 10 years ago, my husband was in
this very stressful job that didn't really suit his the way
he operates at all. We've found out he had
(05:14):
undiagnosed ADHD at the time, which now makes a lot of sense
of the situation. And he was working really hard
on that. I was doing my master's degree
and we both, for lots of reasons, like personally and
emotionally, as well as the pressure of the working study,
we burned out really badly kind of at the same time.
(05:35):
And that was a really pivotal event for us because my husband
decided to leave his job. The job that he was in came with
a house. So we had to leave our home.
And it was this big like 5 bedroom, like spreading home for
just the two of us. And we downsized to a really
tiny apartment. We went and lived in the middle
of the city, which we'd always wanted to do.
(05:57):
And we also cleared our entire calendars.
Like, we became quite socially withdrawn.
And we just leaned into, like, minimalism in every aspect of
our lives, including our schedules.
And so we had this year of, like, mental quiet, and we
really needed the healing. And out of that came quite a lot
of creativity because we're bothcreative people.
(06:17):
He's a writer. And when we'd sort of done some
healing, we decided to start a creative business together.
And that was sort of our first, it wasn't my first venture into
business, but it was our first kind of attempt to go, let's
actually try and replace our income with creative work.
And, and that worked out that happened for us.
(06:39):
That was nearly, that was probably 8 years ago or so.
And we have both worked part time hours ever since then.
We've both been living and earning unconventionally and
just decided we are not ever going to go back to having
conventional or full time employment.
So in some ways, Mike, that's a pretty cliched story.
You hear a lot of online entrepreneurs being like, I
(06:59):
crashed and burned and I transformed my entire life.
But I feel like, well, we've been living it for like 10 years
now. So I feel like I can tell that
story with authority. And so in terms of like how
that's brought me to the work that I'm doing now, I still do
creative work. I work mainly as a writer.
I also work as an academic. But I've had so many people ask
me over the years, like how likeyou don't really seem to work
(07:23):
that much. How do you do that, You know,
and sort of admire our lifestyle, which puts mental
health first because it's reallyimportant for us.
And so I sort of became really passionate about this,
especially after I had my baby acouple of years ago.
And then all of my mom friends who I had babies the same age
started going back to work and putting their kids in daycare
when they didn't want to. Like, there's no shame on anyone
(07:45):
who does that. But I had mum friends who did
not want to do that, but they didn't see an option.
And I, like, just didn't go backto work.
I didn't have to because I had abig savings buffer and I had a
flexible that I could do myself.And I just thought, man, I want
more people to have access to this.
And so I started just mentoring other creative people and it's
(08:07):
sort of evolved into this thing where I coach people to turn
their creative work into a flexible business so they don't
have to have a nine to five job if they don't want to.
I work with a lot of parents andneurodivergent people and
chronically unwell people and other people with very capacity.
Yeah. So that's that's how I got here.
Fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing,
(08:28):
Kamina. And let me just take a moment
and say for all the people who feel called out for, you know,
burning out multiple times, potentially from, you know, our
own way of working, I'm, I'm figuratively holding your hand
right now because I feel it too.Halen, I was just, you stole my
words. I was just going to be like, I
(08:49):
feel too seen right now. Like in this moment, I'm like,
oof, that hurts. That hurts.
It's funny because I was just ina coaching session yesterday and
I wrote down when I am I, I'm supposed to finish this
sentence. When I'm feeling blank, I tend
to blank and what I really need is blank.
(09:11):
And what what really called me out was when I'm feeling like
energized, I over commit. That's such a that's such A and
because I think when we talk about burnout, we're often
talking about when we're not feeling well when we're tired.
(09:34):
But I think to your point, Camina, we have to actually talk
about what are we doing when we're feeling energized that
ends up like what, what checks are we writing that we can't
cash later on? So I really appreciate you you
mentioning that because for myself, if I'm not over
(09:57):
performing during my energetic periods because I too have ADHD,
then I feel lazy. And I'm wondering if that's a
word that comes up for you very often.
And if so, how do you work with this idea of laziness with, you
(10:18):
know, and among creators and creatives and turn it into more
of a purposeful life? Yeah, definitely the feeling of
laziness comes up when I talk about making things easy.
I actually love the word lazy. I'll use it in a non pejorative
way, like just it's OK to be lazy in terms of don't put too
(10:40):
much energy into things that don't need you to put too much
energy into them, right. I think like exactly what you
said, Lindy, one of the tendencies I've had to overcome
is trying to work at 100% of my capacity or to over perform.
Because we think if we're not always performing the way we do
on our best day or we're not always planning and committing
to perform at our peak that we are being lazy.
(11:03):
But it's, I mean, first of all, it's not possible to perform at
our peak all the time. Otherwise it wouldn't be a peak,
right? And then second of all, that
doesn't allow if we, if we over schedule ourselves 110%, then
when an emergency comes up or even like a new good opportunity
that we want to take on, we haven't left space for it.
But third of all, something I say to my clients is like
(11:25):
shaming ourselves for making work easy.
I think it's actually putting too much value on our work, to
be quite honest. Like work is a valuable thing.
I love my work and I love to perform excellently at work, but
it's not my whole life. And, and when I say I want my
work to be easy, it's because life is not easy and I need
(11:46):
capacity to do other things likeparent my child and have
relationships and take care of people and take care of my home
and my body in my mental health like that.
That's not lazy. So when I say like, have an easy
business or an easy income or easy work, I'm not telling you
to be lazy in all of life. I'm saying like, you know, make
(12:10):
your work easy because work should not be the most important
thing in your life. It shouldn't be taking up so
much space in your life. There are more important things
to use that energy on. And then another thing I really
want to say about laziness and easy work is that often the
hustle, it's actually just ineffective and a bit misguided.
(12:31):
It's, it's us fulfilling this need like this conditioning we
have that we must work hard in order to earn money or to be
valuable. And so we're so conditioned to
do that, that we will just make up busy work that isn't actually
always helping. It just helps us to feel busy
and feel valuable. And it helps us often to avoid
the difficult things that we don't actually want to do.
(12:54):
Like if you have your own business, it's like promoting
your business, getting on Instagram and making videos or
emailing clients and saying, hey, would you like to work
together again? Those are the things that will
actually help you make money. But we don't want to do them.
And so instead we spend a lot oftime picking out the like, color
palette for our website, you know?
And so like you guys are both looking at me like you feel
(13:17):
called out by that. And so right.
So it's like, first of all, you're just keeping yourself
busy, but you're actually not doing things that help.
And the second thing is like, I always think your best work
should be easy because if it's easy for you, it's a sign that
that is like your talent, your zone of genius.
And so you, that's the work you should be offering to the world,
(13:41):
right? Like we often don't think
things, things don't count if they're easy for us, but it's
like, oh, it's because you're really good at that.
So you should be doing that and it's OK that it's easy.
Like that's the thing you shouldbe doing.
So I always tell people like if it feels really easy to you,
it's probably the work you should be doing.
And if you limit the time and the hustle you allow yourself to
(14:03):
put into work, you will learn very quickly that you have to
use the time you have on like actual income generating
activities like selling yourselfand promoting your business.
Because if you use up those hours, you know, agonizing over
the website colours or whatever,your business will collapse.
You won't get any clients, and so if you try to run your work
(14:24):
with as little work as possible,you will find out quickly which
activities are actually essential and you'll be forced
to prioritize those. So I don't think it's lazy at
all to try and put minimal time and energy into your business.
It's just not. Mind blown, Kamena, this, this
concept of like turning lazinesson its head and also reframing
(14:46):
easy as not that things are coming too easily to you and in
a way that they're undeserved. But what about just doing work
that comes naturally? Like I, I love this concept.
I'm I'm going to tattoo this on the inside of my eyelids.
Amazing. I was going to use the the word
revolutionary. I mean the site that the two
(15:08):
things that are jumping. I mean, there's a lot that's
jumping out at me personally, but professionally, the idea of
living a life that puts mental health first.
I'm a therapist, Kamina, and that feels radical to me.
It shouldn't, it shouldn't, but it does right?
(15:29):
And I don't know, you know, Kamina, I, I, I hope it's OK to
notice that you're from a different continent than I am, I
think. Yes, of course.
Yeah, yeah, I'm from Australia. Yes, lovely, lovely.
And thank you again for joining us at a very different time zone
that we're at right now. I'm so happy to.
(15:50):
Yes, because it's it's 6:00 AM where you are right.
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
And, and so I can't help but wonder, you know, we live in a
society that really prioritizes work, really prioritizes money.
I also live in a part of Americathat's very, I think
productivity driven in the Northeast.
(16:12):
And so I wonder if you if you get a little push back at times
from folks for prioritizing yourmental health or prioritizing
things other than work or productivity.
I think so, yeah. Like, I definitely think that
the culture is a little different here to the States
(16:33):
just from what I've observed because I have clients in the
States and in Australia. But certainly, like hustle
culture is also huge here. It really is.
And the idea of like hard work is a really big Australian
value. And this attitude of like,
nobody gets anything for free and like, money doesn't grow on
trees. And like, yeah, the idea you
(16:54):
have to really work hard to earnyour money is a big part of our
culture. And people who don't work hard
maybe are viewed with a little bit of suspicion, you know, like
you've got it easy. You're kind of sitting on your
butt. Things are coming easy to you.
And so I do think I get not necessarily push back from the
people I work with, but it is hard for them to access that
(17:17):
like permission to go. I can actually center my mental
health and not my work. And I'm allowed to find a way to
make enough money to not have towork super hard all the time.
And I, I just think it, it is how cultural in so many
cultures. And so a lot of my work is just
(17:39):
around letting people relax intothat idea that they are not
lazy. And because in Australia as
well, we don't, you don't want people to think that you think
you're special. Like, what do you think you're
special? Because you don't have to have a
job like the rest of us. And so actually, a lot of my
work is just around getting people to feel comfortable with
that and to to not be bothered by it and to kind of advocate
(18:01):
for it. I see a lot of my work when I
write someone an e-mail saying Ineed you to pay me this much for
that amount of work. Like if I'm asked to speak or do
something, I always feel I'm advocating for other people in
my position to make sure that they are paid appropriately for
their work, to make sure that people who are freelancers and
creatives, because creatives have this story that we're not
allowed to make a lot of money, you know, that we actually are
(18:23):
just like appropriately compensated for our work.
And so I try to encourage my clients, you're not just doing
it for you. We're actually doing it to with
the culture to revolutionize theway people have to work, and I
think that's something I'm really passionate about.
Amina, this, this is so incredibly critical and I'm so
grateful that you said it as well because additionally, what
what I'm hearing is that in the way that you operate and the
(18:47):
communication that you have around making working this way
sustainable is also being very clear about how you operate.
And part of that operation is sustaining a life and that that
includes compensation. And so you're acting as a role
model by saying this is how muchI charge, period.
(19:07):
Yeah, absolutely, yes, yes. And especially for, you know,
working in the freelance space, or I mean, even in, in any kind
of untraditional work, especially as entrepreneurship
being on the rise and you know, so many different countries and
ways that people approach work, meaningful work at that is so
(19:32):
important. And it can be such a vital part
of how people approach their their work too.
And I, I also wanted to, to understand a little bit more
about what you do, especially asthat, that revenue side is such
a big part of the work that you do.
And how, how does money play a role in creating that security
(19:55):
and emotional safety for people doing that kind of work?
Yeah. Well, I think in some ways the
answer to this question will is really highly individualized
because it really varies depending on the person and
their relationship to money and what it means for you.
And so in the work I do, I will delve a lot into people's.
Personal stories and personal baggage around money because
(20:16):
it's so individualized, but something I think definitely
applies generally, and you kind of touched on this to Caitlin,
is because I work mostly with people in creative professions.
They're like writers, musicians,artists, theatre makers,
podcasters. You know, we have kind of
collectively grown up with this narrative, but these are like
financially unstable professions.
(20:38):
And so we expect like financial scarcity.
It's almost like a badge of honour.
Like we don't ever see a model to us that you can have
financial stability as a creative.
Like the role models that we have for wealth in the arts are
like pop stars and movie stars who are like, well, you know, we
see them like blowing it all on boats and big divorce
(20:59):
settlements. Like there's not it's not a
model of stability always. And so like, yeah.
So one of the things I try to teach my students and my clients
is to create that stability is like, we need to unlearn this
expectation that our profession doesn't pay and that if we do
get money, we're bad with money.And so, yeah, snap, snap, Right.
And so like, one of the practical things I do to
(21:21):
encourage people to have security and like safety and
emotional peace is first to likecreate a large savings buffer
and then expect to use it. Like, don't make yourself wrong
for spending that money. You need to dip into that
account on the lean months and then build the savings back up
(21:42):
again when you have lots of workrolling in.
And that is normal. That's what the money is for.
You're not wrong for your bank account going up and down
because like the nature of the beast for entrepreneurs and
freelancers, especially early inyour career or your business is
like income flow is not always consistent.
And that's OK. But you can be good with money
(22:03):
and you can learn to manage yourcash so that your lifestyle can
remain stable and consistent even when income is variable.
So that's one really big practical thing that I encourage
people to do. And then I also like try to
teach this big mindset that shift into like, I am a
business, because a lot of artists or creatives or solo
entrepreneurs don't really thinkof themselves as like a business
(22:25):
owner. And so I, I try to teach people
like, treat yourself like a business.
I will, I'll keep my accounts correctly.
I won't be afraid of like the tax office.
I will, I'll use an accountant to make sure I'm doing
everything by the book. I won't be scared of the, of the
paperwork. Like this is a skill that I can
learn even if I've been told that creative people aren't good
with math, right? And so I really like to try and
(22:49):
empower my creatives around likenot just being sensible with
your cash, but also feeling in control of being able to
generate your own work. So we're not just like going on
auditions all the time or like hoping that a client will
approach us to write their website or something.
Like if you know how to get clients, if you know how to
create quick income for yourselfin return for your creative
(23:09):
skills, you won't be reliant on somebody else.
And that is a huge piece of creating emotional safety.
That's self-reliance, especiallyif you're somebody who you know,
who has ADHD or has a chronic illness or some other reason
that you feel you can't show up fully in a nine to five job
everyday and you're scared aboutfinancial stability.
(23:31):
Like if you can create your own money, that creates so much
emotional safety, knowing you can always get more money if you
need it, you know, and I, I loveto teach people that and it
becomes about so much more than the money.
It is, like you said, it's aboutemotional safety and that's like
a #1 value for me. Go off Kamena, this is so huge.
(23:52):
Yes, this is so huge because youknow, I'm thinking about as a,
as a singer myself, you know, there's even within the arts,
there are, there's like a cast system.
So even in the classical music world that I'm a part of,
typically instrumentalists have a union, singers don't right.
So automatically, if we are sharing a rehearsal space, we're
(24:17):
at a disadvantage, right? So like I'm not probably, you
know, I might not be getting paid.
They might they are, they have to be, right.
So like there's already this different strata.
So I think it's so important to recognize to your point that we
go into every space feeling at adifferent, at a disadvantage or
(24:37):
that you get to do your art, you're welcome mentality that
that pervades the creative arts.I think especially now,
especially now that many arts organizations are struggling.
Even some of the, you know, the the top five orchestras are
really struggling right now. And so there's even more of this
(24:58):
like, so you're going to volunteer for us, right kind of
mentality. So I really appreciate community
that you're saying that it's OK giving permission, it's OK to
think like a business owner. I am my business, absolutely.
And artistic work is just as valuable as other kinds of work.
And I don't want to buy into that narrative that it's not.
(25:19):
Yeah. Absolutely.
And in fact, I would say that it's the most valuable as people
are struggling, as societies arefighting and and that there's
there's tension and conflict. It is actually in the arts often
that folks can find commonality in the ability to to connect and
(25:41):
to look beyond difference. So I would say now more than
ever, artists almost as a, as a form of resistance, you know, do
your art, do it beautifully, buthold your hold your head high.
You are empowering folks to remember that.
(26:03):
You know, the art itself is powerful and it's worth creating
a sustainable base because it needs to be.
You need to be able to access art.
Yeah, absolutely. It's so important.
Thank you for saying that. Well, Camina, I feel like I
could talk to you for days and days.
This is I, I just really want tothank you for what you're doing
(26:23):
as an artist myself. And I'll say as an artist who I
felt early on that I didn't evenwant to try to try to make it as
an artist. I'm really happy to be a
therapist. I feel like that's my true
calling. But I never once thought that,
you know, that being a full timeartist felt sustainable or safe
(26:44):
enough for me to even want to give it a try.
So I just appreciate the messagethat you're putting out there
that it's OK to prioritize yourself, to engage in
creativity and to empower yourself to recognize the value
of your your work. Yeah.
(27:06):
Absolutely, and as we've mentioned in previous episodes
as well, and you know, it's especially in as I work in the
creative fields as well and workwith a lot of artists and
writers. The thing that we keep coming
back to as well is that connection with our creativity
is also a connection with our principles and creates another
(27:27):
form of burnout when we aren't connected to it.
So thank you also for doing the work that you're doing and, you
know, contributing these incredibly positive messages
because when when we take care of ourselves, we said we can
also take part in community. So thank you so much for being
here. And Kamina, when you're not in
(27:49):
the break room, where can peoplefind you?
They can find me hanging out on my website, kaminajames.com.
That's KAMINA james.com best place to find me.
I'm at Community James on Instagram.
I have a free Facebook group where I do free coaching events
every month. You can find that through my
website and people want to work with me.
(28:11):
I have a really priced to be affordable course.
It's like $65 a month US if you do it on a payment plan.
And I help people to create stable income out of their
creativity and a really fantastic, amazing, supportive
group environment. And I have creatives from all
over the world in that group. So I'd love people to join us
(28:32):
there. So Camina james.com to connect
with me. Fabulous.
Thank you. You're so welcome, I loved this
conversation, thank you. Thank you I for those, because
this is a, an audio podcast, People didn't see that.
I just made a face when she toldus how much she charges, charges
a month. That is such an accessible rate.
(28:53):
And I and I appreciate that you it's you seem to know your
audience, which is really lovely.
So anyway, that's, that's lovelythat, that you are thinking
about that. I guess so.
Absolutely. Business coaching should not
cost $7000 if you haven't made any money yet.
So I'd like it to be accessible for those entry point, entry
point creatives, yeah. Yeah, that's.
(29:15):
Beautiful 100%. Caitlin, when you're not in the
break room, where can we find you?
Folks can find me at caitlintruehella.com.
Especially if you are a creativelooking for ideation sessions or
an entrepreneur that wants to, you know, kick around some
business ideas, see what works for you in a holistic way.
(29:37):
Also, if you're a writer lookingfor editing services, I'd love
to work with you on your your manuscript and Polish it up in a
way that makes you feel confident and putting it out
into the world. I can also be found Instagram
and TikTok primarily where you can also find information on the
podcast and Lindy, when you're not in the break room, where can
(30:00):
people find you? You can find me at
lindylarimore.com. You'll see more about the
neurodivergent focused career coaching that ioffer and
consulting to create resilient workplaces, And my Instagram is
at Lindy Larimore. I've posted some singing.
(30:22):
Take a listen. Be kind please.
Love it. Well, thank you, Kamina.
I feel so rejuvenated as I'm heading into a rehearsal and
performance this week. I really appreciate you taking
the time. Yes, so welcome and I feel
rejuvenated too. So thank you both so much.
(30:43):
Fabulous. Well, until next time, thanks
for joining the break room. Bye.
Bye.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that's like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
We're your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
(00:27):
Burnout Break Room. This episode is brought to you
by Loop Earplugs. As the winner of the Red dot
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(00:50):
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reducing ear wear. Thank you loop.
Hi Caitlin, how you doing? I am doing fabulous Lindy, how
are you? I'm good, I have to say.
We are in peak fall, peak leaf season here in New England and
it really is wonderful. I I got to take a moment today
(01:12):
and go for a walk in the woods with a friend and it really
filled my cup. It was really nice.
Magical. Absolutely.
I'm I'm in the middle of a performance week so which is
just far more busy than I even remember it being.
It's so nice to have so many wonderful things in my life, and
(01:35):
sometimes they all happen in thesame.
Week so I certainly. Certainly can't complain, but
it's like it's it's impressive how many things can be put into
one schedule. Absolutely.
I mean, two, I mean not just forthe weather point, but yeah,
when, when it rains, it pours. And I, I had a similar
(01:57):
experience this week and I had afull day of rain earlier in the
week and I, I swear it just has restored my soul.
And also amidst having a, a veryfull schedule and a lot of new
things put on my plate, very, very exciting things.
So I'm, I'm happy about that. Not complaining either.
But yeah, having, having that flexibility to take the time to
(02:20):
do the things that you need to and appreciate those things in
the moment are so very important.
And another reason why we're so happy to have Kamina James here
with us today as she talks aboutthe benefits of having the
flexibility to, you know, build your your work how you want to,
whether it's specifically freelance or starting your own
(02:44):
small business and living the life you want to.
She coaches creatives to start and grow their freelance or
small business income so they'renot beholden to a nine to five
job. She's worked as an actor, a
singer, a session musician and dance teacher and more.
And she and her husband have been making their living as
writers since 2017. Travelling, buying a home and
(03:04):
starting a family. All well working part time
remotely and flexible hours around parenting her toddler.
She does yoga inconsistently, listens to pop culture podcast
daily and throws last minute cocktail parties.
Kamina, welcome. We're so happy to have you here
in the break room. I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you both. Wonderful as this is the Burnout
(03:27):
Break Room podcast, I would loveto know a little bit more about
your burnout story and how it brought you to this place.
Well, I used to have this kind of big burnout story about a
burnout event, which was a real turning point in my life, and I
will definitely tell that story.But I want to say that more
recently, I've come to the realization that I have always
(03:48):
perpetuated this kind of ongoingpattern of burnout, this burnout
cycle. And for me, I have to actively
work to prevent burnout all the time just because of the way
that I'm built. And so I wanted to sort of bring
that up as well in case it's relevant for people.
For someone like me, you know, I'm neurodivergent, I'm a
perfectionist, high achiever. I have really variable energy
(04:11):
levels, but I'm also, I'm multi passionate and I love my life.
And so I tend to over commit when I have high energy and then
like crash and burn because I'vetaken on too many things or
because my energy's just unexpectedly gotten lower than I
anticipated. And that has happened to me over
and over and over again. And so I think, you know, for
(04:32):
some of us, we have to recognizeat some point that life is not
making us burned out. Like we're creating that burnout
sometimes. Like if if you've burned out
three or four times in seven years, you know, it's probably
you, Bessie. Like I say that with a lot of
love, you know, like I've had torecognise it in myself and I see
(04:54):
it in so many of my clients. So in my own life and for my
clients, I do a lot of burnout prevention now.
But like I do have like a big burnout story.
So when I was around 2627, like 10 years ago, my husband was in
this very stressful job that didn't really suit his the way
he operates at all. We've found out he had
(05:14):
undiagnosed ADHD at the time, which now makes a lot of sense
of the situation. And he was working really hard
on that. I was doing my master's degree
and we both, for lots of reasons, like personally and
emotionally, as well as the pressure of the working study,
we burned out really badly kind of at the same time.
(05:35):
And that was a really pivotal event for us because my husband
decided to leave his job. The job that he was in came with
a house. So we had to leave our home.
And it was this big like 5 bedroom, like spreading home for
just the two of us. And we downsized to a really
tiny apartment. We went and lived in the middle
of the city, which we'd always wanted to do.
(05:57):
And we also cleared our entire calendars.
Like, we became quite socially withdrawn.
And we just leaned into, like, minimalism in every aspect of
our lives, including our schedules.
And so we had this year of, like, mental quiet, and we
really needed the healing. And out of that came quite a lot
of creativity because we're bothcreative people.
(06:17):
He's a writer. And when we'd sort of done some
healing, we decided to start a creative business together.
And that was sort of our first, it wasn't my first venture into
business, but it was our first kind of attempt to go, let's
actually try and replace our income with creative work.
And, and that worked out that happened for us.
(06:39):
That was nearly, that was probably 8 years ago or so.
And we have both worked part time hours ever since then.
We've both been living and earning unconventionally and
just decided we are not ever going to go back to having
conventional or full time employment.
So in some ways, Mike, that's a pretty cliched story.
You hear a lot of online entrepreneurs being like, I
(06:59):
crashed and burned and I transformed my entire life.
But I feel like, well, we've been living it for like 10 years
now. So I feel like I can tell that
story with authority. And so in terms of like how
that's brought me to the work that I'm doing now, I still do
creative work. I work mainly as a writer.
I also work as an academic. But I've had so many people ask
me over the years, like how likeyou don't really seem to work
(07:23):
that much. How do you do that, You know,
and sort of admire our lifestyle, which puts mental
health first because it's reallyimportant for us.
And so I sort of became really passionate about this,
especially after I had my baby acouple of years ago.
And then all of my mom friends who I had babies the same age
started going back to work and putting their kids in daycare
when they didn't want to. Like, there's no shame on anyone
(07:45):
who does that. But I had mum friends who did
not want to do that, but they didn't see an option.
And I, like, just didn't go backto work.
I didn't have to because I had abig savings buffer and I had a
flexible that I could do myself.And I just thought, man, I want
more people to have access to this.
And so I started just mentoring other creative people and it's
(08:07):
sort of evolved into this thing where I coach people to turn
their creative work into a flexible business so they don't
have to have a nine to five job if they don't want to.
I work with a lot of parents andneurodivergent people and
chronically unwell people and other people with very capacity.
Yeah. So that's that's how I got here.
Fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing,
(08:28):
Kamina. And let me just take a moment
and say for all the people who feel called out for, you know,
burning out multiple times, potentially from, you know, our
own way of working, I'm, I'm figuratively holding your hand
right now because I feel it too.Halen, I was just, you stole my
words. I was just going to be like, I
(08:49):
feel too seen right now. Like in this moment, I'm like,
oof, that hurts. That hurts.
It's funny because I was just ina coaching session yesterday and
I wrote down when I am I, I'm supposed to finish this
sentence. When I'm feeling blank, I tend
to blank and what I really need is blank.
(09:11):
And what what really called me out was when I'm feeling like
energized, I over commit. That's such a that's such A and
because I think when we talk about burnout, we're often
talking about when we're not feeling well when we're tired.
(09:34):
But I think to your point, Camina, we have to actually talk
about what are we doing when we're feeling energized that
ends up like what, what checks are we writing that we can't
cash later on? So I really appreciate you you
mentioning that because for myself, if I'm not over
(09:57):
performing during my energetic periods because I too have ADHD,
then I feel lazy. And I'm wondering if that's a
word that comes up for you very often.
And if so, how do you work with this idea of laziness with, you
(10:18):
know, and among creators and creatives and turn it into more
of a purposeful life? Yeah, definitely the feeling of
laziness comes up when I talk about making things easy.
I actually love the word lazy. I'll use it in a non pejorative
way, like just it's OK to be lazy in terms of don't put too
(10:40):
much energy into things that don't need you to put too much
energy into them, right. I think like exactly what you
said, Lindy, one of the tendencies I've had to overcome
is trying to work at 100% of my capacity or to over perform.
Because we think if we're not always performing the way we do
on our best day or we're not always planning and committing
to perform at our peak that we are being lazy.
(11:03):
But it's, I mean, first of all, it's not possible to perform at
our peak all the time. Otherwise it wouldn't be a peak,
right? And then second of all, that
doesn't allow if we, if we over schedule ourselves 110%, then
when an emergency comes up or even like a new good opportunity
that we want to take on, we haven't left space for it.
But third of all, something I say to my clients is like
(11:25):
shaming ourselves for making work easy.
I think it's actually putting too much value on our work, to
be quite honest. Like work is a valuable thing.
I love my work and I love to perform excellently at work, but
it's not my whole life. And, and when I say I want my
work to be easy, it's because life is not easy and I need
(11:46):
capacity to do other things likeparent my child and have
relationships and take care of people and take care of my home
and my body in my mental health like that.
That's not lazy. So when I say like, have an easy
business or an easy income or easy work, I'm not telling you
to be lazy in all of life. I'm saying like, you know, make
(12:10):
your work easy because work should not be the most important
thing in your life. It shouldn't be taking up so
much space in your life. There are more important things
to use that energy on. And then another thing I really
want to say about laziness and easy work is that often the
hustle, it's actually just ineffective and a bit misguided.
(12:31):
It's, it's us fulfilling this need like this conditioning we
have that we must work hard in order to earn money or to be
valuable. And so we're so conditioned to
do that, that we will just make up busy work that isn't actually
always helping. It just helps us to feel busy
and feel valuable. And it helps us often to avoid
the difficult things that we don't actually want to do.
(12:54):
Like if you have your own business, it's like promoting
your business, getting on Instagram and making videos or
emailing clients and saying, hey, would you like to work
together again? Those are the things that will
actually help you make money. But we don't want to do them.
And so instead we spend a lot oftime picking out the like, color
palette for our website, you know?
And so like you guys are both looking at me like you feel
(13:17):
called out by that. And so right.
So it's like, first of all, you're just keeping yourself
busy, but you're actually not doing things that help.
And the second thing is like, I always think your best work
should be easy because if it's easy for you, it's a sign that
that is like your talent, your zone of genius.
And so you, that's the work you should be offering to the world,
(13:41):
right? Like we often don't think
things, things don't count if they're easy for us, but it's
like, oh, it's because you're really good at that.
So you should be doing that and it's OK that it's easy.
Like that's the thing you shouldbe doing.
So I always tell people like if it feels really easy to you,
it's probably the work you should be doing.
And if you limit the time and the hustle you allow yourself to
(14:03):
put into work, you will learn very quickly that you have to
use the time you have on like actual income generating
activities like selling yourselfand promoting your business.
Because if you use up those hours, you know, agonizing over
the website colours or whatever,your business will collapse.
You won't get any clients, and so if you try to run your work
(14:24):
with as little work as possible,you will find out quickly which
activities are actually essential and you'll be forced
to prioritize those. So I don't think it's lazy at
all to try and put minimal time and energy into your business.
It's just not. Mind blown, Kamena, this, this
concept of like turning lazinesson its head and also reframing
(14:46):
easy as not that things are coming too easily to you and in
a way that they're undeserved. But what about just doing work
that comes naturally? Like I, I love this concept.
I'm I'm going to tattoo this on the inside of my eyelids.
Amazing. I was going to use the the word
revolutionary. I mean the site that the two
(15:08):
things that are jumping. I mean, there's a lot that's
jumping out at me personally, but professionally, the idea of
living a life that puts mental health first.
I'm a therapist, Kamina, and that feels radical to me.
It shouldn't, it shouldn't, but it does right?
(15:29):
And I don't know, you know, Kamina, I, I, I hope it's OK to
notice that you're from a different continent than I am, I
think. Yes, of course.
Yeah, yeah, I'm from Australia. Yes, lovely, lovely.
And thank you again for joining us at a very different time zone
that we're at right now. I'm so happy to.
(15:50):
Yes, because it's it's 6:00 AM where you are right.
Yeah, it is. Yeah.
And, and so I can't help but wonder, you know, we live in a
society that really prioritizes work, really prioritizes money.
I also live in a part of Americathat's very, I think
productivity driven in the Northeast.
(16:12):
And so I wonder if you if you get a little push back at times
from folks for prioritizing yourmental health or prioritizing
things other than work or productivity.
I think so, yeah. Like, I definitely think that
the culture is a little different here to the States
(16:33):
just from what I've observed because I have clients in the
States and in Australia. But certainly, like hustle
culture is also huge here. It really is.
And the idea of like hard work is a really big Australian
value. And this attitude of like,
nobody gets anything for free and like, money doesn't grow on
trees. And like, yeah, the idea you
(16:54):
have to really work hard to earnyour money is a big part of our
culture. And people who don't work hard
maybe are viewed with a little bit of suspicion, you know, like
you've got it easy. You're kind of sitting on your
butt. Things are coming easy to you.
And so I do think I get not necessarily push back from the
people I work with, but it is hard for them to access that
(17:17):
like permission to go. I can actually center my mental
health and not my work. And I'm allowed to find a way to
make enough money to not have towork super hard all the time.
And I, I just think it, it is how cultural in so many
cultures. And so a lot of my work is just
(17:39):
around letting people relax intothat idea that they are not
lazy. And because in Australia as
well, we don't, you don't want people to think that you think
you're special. Like, what do you think you're
special? Because you don't have to have a
job like the rest of us. And so actually, a lot of my
work is just around getting people to feel comfortable with
that and to to not be bothered by it and to kind of advocate
(18:01):
for it. I see a lot of my work when I
write someone an e-mail saying Ineed you to pay me this much for
that amount of work. Like if I'm asked to speak or do
something, I always feel I'm advocating for other people in
my position to make sure that they are paid appropriately for
their work, to make sure that people who are freelancers and
creatives, because creatives have this story that we're not
allowed to make a lot of money, you know, that we actually are
(18:23):
just like appropriately compensated for our work.
And so I try to encourage my clients, you're not just doing
it for you. We're actually doing it to with
the culture to revolutionize theway people have to work, and I
think that's something I'm really passionate about.
Amina, this, this is so incredibly critical and I'm so
grateful that you said it as well because additionally, what
what I'm hearing is that in the way that you operate and the
(18:47):
communication that you have around making working this way
sustainable is also being very clear about how you operate.
And part of that operation is sustaining a life and that that
includes compensation. And so you're acting as a role
model by saying this is how muchI charge, period.
(19:07):
Yeah, absolutely, yes, yes. And especially for, you know,
working in the freelance space, or I mean, even in, in any kind
of untraditional work, especially as entrepreneurship
being on the rise and you know, so many different countries and
ways that people approach work, meaningful work at that is so
(19:32):
important. And it can be such a vital part
of how people approach their their work too.
And I, I also wanted to, to understand a little bit more
about what you do, especially asthat, that revenue side is such
a big part of the work that you do.
And how, how does money play a role in creating that security
(19:55):
and emotional safety for people doing that kind of work?
Yeah. Well, I think in some ways the
answer to this question will is really highly individualized
because it really varies depending on the person and
their relationship to money and what it means for you.
And so in the work I do, I will delve a lot into people's.
Personal stories and personal baggage around money because
(20:16):
it's so individualized, but something I think definitely
applies generally, and you kind of touched on this to Caitlin,
is because I work mostly with people in creative professions.
They're like writers, musicians,artists, theatre makers,
podcasters. You know, we have kind of
collectively grown up with this narrative, but these are like
financially unstable professions.
(20:38):
And so we expect like financial scarcity.
It's almost like a badge of honour.
Like we don't ever see a model to us that you can have
financial stability as a creative.
Like the role models that we have for wealth in the arts are
like pop stars and movie stars who are like, well, you know, we
see them like blowing it all on boats and big divorce
(20:59):
settlements. Like there's not it's not a
model of stability always. And so like, yeah.
So one of the things I try to teach my students and my clients
is to create that stability is like, we need to unlearn this
expectation that our profession doesn't pay and that if we do
get money, we're bad with money.And so, yeah, snap, snap, Right.
And so like, one of the practical things I do to
(21:21):
encourage people to have security and like safety and
emotional peace is first to likecreate a large savings buffer
and then expect to use it. Like, don't make yourself wrong
for spending that money. You need to dip into that
account on the lean months and then build the savings back up
(21:42):
again when you have lots of workrolling in.
And that is normal. That's what the money is for.
You're not wrong for your bank account going up and down
because like the nature of the beast for entrepreneurs and
freelancers, especially early inyour career or your business is
like income flow is not always consistent.
And that's OK. But you can be good with money
(22:03):
and you can learn to manage yourcash so that your lifestyle can
remain stable and consistent even when income is variable.
So that's one really big practical thing that I encourage
people to do. And then I also like try to
teach this big mindset that shift into like, I am a
business, because a lot of artists or creatives or solo
entrepreneurs don't really thinkof themselves as like a business
(22:25):
owner. And so I, I try to teach people
like, treat yourself like a business.
I will, I'll keep my accounts correctly.
I won't be afraid of like the tax office.
I will, I'll use an accountant to make sure I'm doing
everything by the book. I won't be scared of the, of the
paperwork. Like this is a skill that I can
learn even if I've been told that creative people aren't good
with math, right? And so I really like to try and
(22:49):
empower my creatives around likenot just being sensible with
your cash, but also feeling in control of being able to
generate your own work. So we're not just like going on
auditions all the time or like hoping that a client will
approach us to write their website or something.
Like if you know how to get clients, if you know how to
create quick income for yourselfin return for your creative
(23:09):
skills, you won't be reliant on somebody else.
And that is a huge piece of creating emotional safety.
That's self-reliance, especiallyif you're somebody who you know,
who has ADHD or has a chronic illness or some other reason
that you feel you can't show up fully in a nine to five job
everyday and you're scared aboutfinancial stability.
(23:31):
Like if you can create your own money, that creates so much
emotional safety, knowing you can always get more money if you
need it, you know, and I, I loveto teach people that and it
becomes about so much more than the money.
It is, like you said, it's aboutemotional safety and that's like
a #1 value for me. Go off Kamena, this is so huge.
(23:52):
Yes, this is so huge because youknow, I'm thinking about as a,
as a singer myself, you know, there's even within the arts,
there are, there's like a cast system.
So even in the classical music world that I'm a part of,
typically instrumentalists have a union, singers don't right.
So automatically, if we are sharing a rehearsal space, we're
(24:17):
at a disadvantage, right? So like I'm not probably, you
know, I might not be getting paid.
They might they are, they have to be, right.
So like there's already this different strata.
So I think it's so important to recognize to your point that we
go into every space feeling at adifferent, at a disadvantage or
(24:37):
that you get to do your art, you're welcome mentality that
that pervades the creative arts.I think especially now,
especially now that many arts organizations are struggling.
Even some of the, you know, the the top five orchestras are
really struggling right now. And so there's even more of this
(24:58):
like, so you're going to volunteer for us, right kind of
mentality. So I really appreciate community
that you're saying that it's OK giving permission, it's OK to
think like a business owner. I am my business, absolutely.
And artistic work is just as valuable as other kinds of work.
And I don't want to buy into that narrative that it's not.
(25:19):
Yeah. Absolutely.
And in fact, I would say that it's the most valuable as people
are struggling, as societies arefighting and and that there's
there's tension and conflict. It is actually in the arts often
that folks can find commonality in the ability to to connect and
(25:41):
to look beyond difference. So I would say now more than
ever, artists almost as a, as a form of resistance, you know, do
your art, do it beautifully, buthold your hold your head high.
You are empowering folks to remember that.
(26:03):
You know, the art itself is powerful and it's worth creating
a sustainable base because it needs to be.
You need to be able to access art.
Yeah, absolutely. It's so important.
Thank you for saying that. Well, Camina, I feel like I
could talk to you for days and days.
This is I, I just really want tothank you for what you're doing
(26:23):
as an artist myself. And I'll say as an artist who I
felt early on that I didn't evenwant to try to try to make it as
an artist. I'm really happy to be a
therapist. I feel like that's my true
calling. But I never once thought that,
you know, that being a full timeartist felt sustainable or safe
(26:44):
enough for me to even want to give it a try.
So I just appreciate the messagethat you're putting out there
that it's OK to prioritize yourself, to engage in
creativity and to empower yourself to recognize the value
of your your work. Yeah.
(27:06):
Absolutely, and as we've mentioned in previous episodes
as well, and you know, it's especially in as I work in the
creative fields as well and workwith a lot of artists and
writers. The thing that we keep coming
back to as well is that connection with our creativity
is also a connection with our principles and creates another
(27:27):
form of burnout when we aren't connected to it.
So thank you also for doing the work that you're doing and, you
know, contributing these incredibly positive messages
because when when we take care of ourselves, we said we can
also take part in community. So thank you so much for being
here. And Kamina, when you're not in
(27:49):
the break room, where can peoplefind you?
They can find me hanging out on my website, kaminajames.com.
That's KAMINA james.com best place to find me.
I'm at Community James on Instagram.
I have a free Facebook group where I do free coaching events
every month. You can find that through my
website and people want to work with me.
(28:11):
I have a really priced to be affordable course.
It's like $65 a month US if you do it on a payment plan.
And I help people to create stable income out of their
creativity and a really fantastic, amazing, supportive
group environment. And I have creatives from all
over the world in that group. So I'd love people to join us
(28:32):
there. So Camina james.com to connect
with me. Fabulous.
Thank you. You're so welcome, I loved this
conversation, thank you. Thank you I for those, because
this is a, an audio podcast, People didn't see that.
I just made a face when she toldus how much she charges, charges
a month. That is such an accessible rate.
(28:53):
And I and I appreciate that you it's you seem to know your
audience, which is really lovely.
So anyway, that's, that's lovelythat, that you are thinking
about that. I guess so.
Absolutely. Business coaching should not
cost $7000 if you haven't made any money yet.
So I'd like it to be accessible for those entry point, entry
point creatives, yeah. Yeah, that's.
(29:15):
Beautiful 100%. Caitlin, when you're not in the
break room, where can we find you?
Folks can find me at caitlintruehella.com.
Especially if you are a creativelooking for ideation sessions or
an entrepreneur that wants to, you know, kick around some
business ideas, see what works for you in a holistic way.
(29:37):
Also, if you're a writer lookingfor editing services, I'd love
to work with you on your your manuscript and Polish it up in a
way that makes you feel confident and putting it out
into the world. I can also be found Instagram
and TikTok primarily where you can also find information on the
podcast and Lindy, when you're not in the break room, where can
(30:00):
people find you? You can find me at
lindylarimore.com. You'll see more about the
neurodivergent focused career coaching that ioffer and
consulting to create resilient workplaces, And my Instagram is
at Lindy Larimore. I've posted some singing.
(30:22):
Take a listen. Be kind please.
Love it. Well, thank you, Kamina.
I feel so rejuvenated as I'm heading into a rehearsal and
performance this week. I really appreciate you taking
the time. Yes, so welcome and I feel
rejuvenated too. So thank you both so much.
(30:43):
Fabulous. Well, until next time, thanks
for joining the break room. Bye.
Bye.
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