September 29, 2025 • 49 mins
👺 Everyone has that coworker that seems entirely unburdened by the pressure to mask? This week, Caitlan and Lyndie borrow some of the audacity to explore ableism in the workplace and the paradox of disproportionate expectations of civility and respect.
📗 Caitlan is a Creative Coach, Speaker, and loves getting lost in a book or hiking trail.
Follow me @CreativeCaitlan
Find all my projects at https://caitlantrewhella.com/
📙 Lyndie Laramore is a Career Coach, licensed Therapist and Consultant, and knows exactly how to bring down the house with her classical singing.
Follow me @LyndieLaramore
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that is like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:28):
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. Welcome.
Welcome, Lindy. It is so good to see you here
again in the break room. How are you today?
I am pretty great actually. Yeah, I, I don't have too many
complaints. It's kind of the summer is
(00:49):
wrapping up. It's been beautiful in my part
of the world. I've been able to enjoy some
beautiful music and concerts andhad some time off and feeling
restored. How about you, love?
To hear it, color me restored aswell because it's, it's funny to
see like how the transitions of like one season into another
(01:14):
happen in the desert because I love storms and especially like
Thunder and lightning storms. Oh my gosh, like that.
Honestly, that's probably one ofthe reasons why I love
vacationing to super cloudy places.
That and having to deal with the, the prospect of getting
(01:35):
sunburnt in the shade, but theseThunder and lightning storms out
here are something else. It's there's so much energy, you
know, packed into it. Like it's so powerful, you know,
feeling that, that change in theair, like literally feeling the
electricity in the air that Oh my gosh, that is so restorative
(02:00):
to me. And it's over the past couple of
days we've had multiple. So it's just been wonderful.
Oh, that's exciting. That's exciting.
It's nice to. I feel like thunderstorms can
feel very magical sometimes. And it's nice to to have that
experience I had as a musician It there's something about
studying music that takes the magic right out of music.
(02:23):
And for the first time in a lot of years, I feel like I attended
a concert and I felt the magic again.
And it was really nice. I was like finally, like I felt
like, you know, like when you'rea teenager and it's, it's like,
you know, music is magical. So it was, it was really nice to
(02:45):
have that experience and not feel like a jaded, you know, old
musician, which I am, don't get me wrong, but I, I didn't feel
like one for a second. That is so special.
And, you know, I, I know exactlywhat you're talking about in
terms of like re reconnecting with the, the magic or the, the
(03:09):
circumstance of it all. Because, yeah, when you, when
you study something for so long and you're, you know, embroiled
in the in the midst of it, you know, it's literally like
cooking in the soup. You know, it's, it's hard to see
the the forest for the trees andreally be able to step back and,
you know, witness the the awe ofit.
And honestly, like, especially Ifeel like when it comes to
(03:32):
performance as well, you know, it's, it's one thing to be in
the community, be in the moment,like as it's happening, but
obviously until we perfect teleportation, you can't, you
know, experience it like as the audience does to see, to see
everything like come together. And I, I, I think I mentioned
(03:55):
this in a previous podcast as episodes as well, but having the
same experience, like coming outof, you know, getting my
literature degree, like, OK, this was, this was all really
fun. I love literature and learning
all about it and the diving headfirst into the technical aspects
of writing. Now I have to figure out what I
(04:15):
like. Just zaps all the joy.
Out of it just zaps all the joy or for me, it was like, I really
like this piece of music and I feel like I'm not allowed to
anymore. It's not complicated enough or
it's too good sounding like it should sound very complicated
(04:37):
and a little nerve rattling or else it's not good enough music.
And so I just fully embraced a piece that I used to love and,
you know, felt judged for lovingfor years.
And then I was just like, Nope, I'm going to love it and I'm
going to have fun listening to it so everyone can go kick
rocks, fly a kite. Thank you, yes that I love it.
(05:04):
The the funniest thing too is I'm almost exclusively a Spotify
user when it comes to music. But the funniest thing about
getting my Spotify wrapped at the end of basically every year
is seeing that I almost can't say it.
(05:27):
The music that I primarily listen to is between almost
exclusively like 3 genres. It's either classical music,
like very highbrow, right? And then like maybe some chill
lo fi, you know, like instrumental jazz to have on
(05:48):
like when I'm, you know, studying or working in the
background. And then like, I don't even know
if it has an official genre name, but it's like lowbrow
comedy songs like everything from Bo Burnham.
And please don't anybody come atme for calling Bo Burnham
lowbrow. But also like my recent favorite
(06:10):
and for all all my TikTok folks out there, the the OTC,
especially the the half horse half man song.
Oh, I need to learn more about this.
I will. Absolute nonsense.
And I've never seen you laugh sohard, so it must be amazing.
(06:34):
It just, it brings me so much joy and like, yeah, you know,
when in terms of music and what is considered like, you know
what, what is indicative of goodtaste?
Yeah. I, I really don't give a shit
what it, what it means like to other people that I like this
music. It brings me joy.
Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm no longer of the age
(06:58):
where I care what people think of my music taste.
If I like it, I like it. Yes.
And for heaven's sakes, like forall of the time that we spend
masking and not talking about, like, our real experiences and,
you know, real thoughts and realjoys, yeah, we need to.
(07:20):
We absolutely can revel in what we do enjoy.
Speaking of masking, have you had the experience, Caitlin,
where you're in a workplace, maybe not even in the workplace,
but in in a situation where there are people around you who
(07:42):
are not masking in a way that seems kind of baffling that they
could kind of get away with not masking with the amount of
energy required to mask? Oh, absolutely.
And even even in all of those pieces that that you're throwing
down like sick raps, emphasis onsick.
(08:11):
Yes, I'm catching every single one of them.
Because the funniest part about all of this is that I sincerely
wish so many of my Co workers were better at masking because
it's at least in my experience. And maybe maybe you've had
different, different experience,Lindy, but the majority of the
(08:34):
time, the people that I come across that clearly don't
actively mask in these spaces are on the more mediocre side.
And maybe in this in this situation, masking would be
actually encouraged. Say more.
(08:57):
To have the confidence of a mediocre white man.
What would I give? What would I give to be able to
walk in a room, do whatever you want, want or not do whatever
you want, and then receive so much praise?
(09:20):
Yeah. So in my experience, I often see
this go down in kind of the likethe overly educated spaces,
whatever that is, whether it's amedical degree, psychiatry,
academia, there's this whole thing, there's this whole myth
(09:41):
out there that I really want to debunk right now that the the
higher the education, the more shenanigans you should be
allowed to engage in. And I don't mean necessarily
like bad behavior, which is absolutely a thing that happens.
But I'm talking more about just like being rude, not having
(10:03):
people skills, not doing your paperwork, somehow thinking that
your degree keeps you from having to do paperwork and
somehow means that someone else should be doing it for you.
And then for people to be like, Oh well, you know their type.
You, you know about them. And I, I, no, I don't.
(10:25):
Enlighten me. What does this mean?
Yes, please explain it. Please explain to me how a how
an executive that makes 6 figures plus does not know how
to open an attachment and somehow that is now my
responsibility. Yes, yes.
(10:49):
And here's another, here's another thing, here's a, here's
a form of ableism that I want tocall out in the workplace.
And, and I, I, I had a client talk to me about this the other
day and they're, they were like,I'd feel so bad saying this, you
know, this feels wrong or like disrespectful, but we, we were
(11:10):
able to recognize, no, this is ableism.
The amount of times I've heard someone say to me, oh, well,
that's just because they're on the spectrum to describe bad
behavior, disrespectful behavior, that friends is
ableism because the implication there is they are incapable of
(11:31):
being respectful because they are on the spectrum.
I've met some people on the spectrum who are wildly
respectful, who are kind, who are thoughtful, who?
Do their. Job So I just want to call out
(11:52):
the ableism that is because theyhave blank some form of
neurodiversity, some form of mental health diagnosis, maybe a
recognized disability that it means that they automatically
don't have to be held to standards of appropriate work
(12:14):
behavior. I I call that ableism.
And it most absolutely is. And honestly, I would take it a
step further, Lindy, because in addition to forming that as an
excuse for disrespectful behavior, which I know there
have been so many studies on even just how incivility in the
(12:36):
workplace can affect people's team morale, individual morale,
and individual mental health as well.
It also goes even farther to perpetuate stereotypes that
people with different mental conditions are all incapable of
being civil or respectful people, and that's just not
(13:00):
true. Bingo, exactly it.
And, and I want to call out a very specific version of this.
So I've worked in spaces where there are folks who again, many
different kinds of degrees, manydifferent levels of education.
And the folks who are held to the lowest standards of work
(13:21):
appropriate behavior are often the folks who are paid the most
and are the most they educated or have the most power.
The folks in my experience who are held to the highest
standards are often the people who are paid the least.
And specifically in mental health spaces, oftentimes people
(13:44):
who are hired because of their lived experience as soon as they
have lived. I, I don't know how to say this.
Like as soon as they say model, you know, I'm struggling right
now. I'm, I'm experiencing some
anxiety. I'm going to go use this coping
skill. I'm going to go take, you know,
practice self-care, do their jobas, as, as someone who has lived
(14:06):
experience. Part of that's modeling and
advocacy to then be discriminated against because
they have lived experience. And I've talked about it.
But the folks, you know, that are higher up who are just
behaving badly are then defendedand explained to ways like,
(14:27):
well, we're not going to actually address that because,
oh, that's just so, and so, you know, they're, they're on the
spectrum. So that's just their behavior.
Right. The if I can use a piece of
media to kind of illustrate my understanding of what you're
talking about Lindy is I think of the original episodes of
(14:48):
Shark Tank and to now, obviouslyin in this circumstance, like
these are individual, individualinvestors, but they, in my
experience, model so many of thesame like leadership personas
that we see in executive spaces.This expectation that in order
(15:09):
to be a good leader and to do your job well, you need to be a
shark. You need to be this ambitious,
business savvy person that has taken their own personal persona
and completely tucked it away and therefore is not sharing the
the vulnerable side of themselves.
(15:31):
And so to use this example of these particular individuals in
in this piece of media, you still have the representation of
different personalities in that room.
Right there in the original, I believe there were there were 5
investors and some portrayed themselves.
(15:53):
Know whether this was written into the show or sincerely is
them. I I don't know.
That's not for me to to make that evaluation.
But the different personas that were represented as you have
individuals who are exclusively a shark, you know, like if the
deal doesn't go down the way they want and they don't, you
(16:14):
know, quote UN quote when then they say things like this person
is dead to me, Who are they? I've forgotten them already.
You know, it is exclusively about the business.
It is exclusively about the money.
It is that, you know, laser focused, like shark mentality,
whereas you have other and of course, this is just a a part of
like how you know, media and storytelling works.
(16:36):
You, you have to have foils, Youhave to have different
characters that playoff of each other.
And so you have other investors in this representation who do
take a more heart centered approach, you know, like
they're, they're talking to the,to the entrepreneur.
Oh, I have a great deal of respect.
Like, look, they, they came hereand they're, you know, I
(16:57):
recognize your struggle and they, they would even offer
parts of their own experience. You know, my, my wife and I
struggled with this or like my, my kid has experience with this
and as related to your product or your story or what not.
And so they are sharing those vulnerable pieces of themselves,
albeit relatively small and through the, through the lens of
(17:20):
entertainment. But, and This is why I feel like
it's such an accessible way of looking at this is, yeah, in, in
terms of business, you might want the the shark like bringing
in the money for you, but nobodylikes working with that person
because you're not working with a person.
It's, it's a persona. It is a, it is a single
(17:44):
function. Yeah, yeah.
And, and one where doing harm what even if it's just like
micro harm, right? It's considered part of the job
description, but often the, the the folks that are on the ground
level could never get away with doing that kind of harm to
(18:08):
others, especially if it's like up the ladder.
Yeah, I, I basically what we're talking about here, Caitlin, is
like, who is expected to mask and who doesn't have to mask?
Who can get away with not doing any of that emotional labor of
(18:29):
keeping that mask on? Exactly.
And I, I love the the note on emotion there too, because it's,
it's not just emotional labor, but it's how we represent
ourselves. And case in point, for a lot of
the prejudices around when it comes to conduct in the
(18:49):
workplace, who is allowed to have an emotional response to
something? Because if a like if a man who
is a vice president or you know,as ACEO or whatever, fill, fill
in the blank of like, you know, position of power goes off on
(19:10):
somebody in a meeting, Oh, well,they're just, they're just being
assertive. They're, they're just, you know,
sticking to, to business and what, what needs to be done.
Yes yes not bitchy or a nasty, you know it's that that's just
they're just doing their job. I also want to call out myself a
(19:32):
little bit too, Caitlin, like how the times when I didn't
mask. So I think the other side of
this conversation too. And I've had this, I've had this
yesterday with an executive woman with ADHD.
And it's like, I know this is unfair, but that was a situation
(19:54):
in which I should have masked, even though I'd like to think
that I didn't have to. And I've certainly gone through
the wringer of that experience too, where I.
Didn't understand the importanceof masking and I'm not, I'm not
defending it, but I'm just recognizing that if you are
(20:18):
someone who say is no divergent or a person of color, a person
with a different cultural background and the, the majority
of people in power, a big part of your experience of whether
it's leadership or just being inthe workplace is the kind of
heartbreaking times where it waslike, Oh, I was supposed to mask
(20:40):
there. And because I didn't, I feel
like I now have like potentiallymonths and years of work to do
to regain respect or to maybe make sure that I can keep my job
right. I'm also I I also want to call
out that we're we're talking about masking because that's the
term that I most relate to, but it also applies to things like
(21:03):
code switching. Yes.
And how if a person let something slip in certain
situations and certain positionsnot of power, they could, it
could affect the longevity of their job.
Whereas if someone in a positionof power let something slip, it
could just be a roll the eyes. Oh, that's just so and so that's
(21:27):
how they are. Absolutely.
And another thing that you're reminding me of Lindy is
especially when it comes to leadership development, the how
sometimes dismissive it can comeacross to give the advice or, or
the feedback to somebody who is seeking mentorship to just speak
(21:52):
up more. You know, you, you need to we,
we need to hear from you more and like that that being like
the primary entry point to visibility in the workplace.
But at the same time not recognizing that all all of the
hoops that you know, somebody inyou know, intersectional spaces
(22:14):
or coming from different backgrounds would experience.
There is more risk in being morevisible and speaking out more
because to your point, if something slips, then it's not
just the emotional reaction of Ididn't mean to say that.
Now there's there's more awareness about me personally
(22:37):
than that I'm comfortable with in in the in the workplace.
But as you were saying before, like potentially, you know,
looking down the line and seeinghow much work do I need to do
now in order to undo this or to,you know, re re establish
supposed credibility or, or anything like that.
(22:57):
But yeah, it's, it's frustrating.
You know how how often times people in positions of
leadership like even when they are willing to be mentors, that
they don't recognize the, the difficulties that their their
mentees are are facing and why you know, making yourself more
(23:18):
visible is not an easy ask. Yes, I'm getting chills hearing
this, Caitlin, because I'm remembering a time in my career
where I was involved in, in somelike a committee in, in a place
where the racial equity work wasbeing done.
(23:39):
And there is this moment where, you know, we all kind of
collectively, collectively agreed that there was a race
problem at this place where we were working.
And the ask was always, you know, on the the folks in lower
positions. I, I don't like that
terminology, but, you know, lower paid positions to speak up
(24:04):
about racism. And finally, a woman of color in
an executive position said we cannot ask them to do that until
the soil has been tended appropriately for it to be safe
for them to do that. And if the soil is not tended
(24:24):
appropriately for safety, then A, we're not going to know
what's going on because the people who are getting the worst
of it are going to be too afraidto say anything for good reason,
to your point. And so I think that that
terminology really stuck with meand my challenge to folks in
leadership, if you have any kindof leadership title, ask
(24:48):
yourself, is the soil tended? Is this, is this a safe
situation for folks to speak up?And if not, why not?
Absolutely. And going back to one of the
things we were talking about previously, it's it also I think
(25:10):
has a, a big impact on the individual communications,
right? Because we, we can have all
kinds of messaging that comes throughout the, the, the company
or the, the enterprise. But what leadership speaks to
individually, I think carries the most weight.
(25:30):
And when we look at how we talk about these things, very much
sets sets the tone for not only leadership, but also, you know,
people on the on the front line as well.
It's almost as if once, like as a leader, once you give
permission to talk about different things, then, you
(25:55):
know, people on the on the frontlines are enabled and and
empowered to, you know, be be honest about those things.
Because I mean, as it's, it seems a silly and an obvious
thing to say, but like, yeah, ithappens to it has to happen at
leadership first because they they set the precedent and what
(26:17):
it what is that phrase like? It's the the worst behavior that
leadership allows will set the bar for everyone else.
Yes, absolutely. And I, and I think leadership
needs to look at where is this behavior allowed, right?
(26:40):
Because I think that, you know, the, the thought that came to
mind for me was, you know, insubordinates.
Like I feel like there's an assumption that we're talking
about subordinates, but there's also that, you know, if there's
also this messaging that if you are under a certain level,
you're not allowed to have any bad behavior.
But if you're above a certain level, then have at it, you're
(27:01):
protected then yes. And that also sends a very clear
message and, and sets very clearprecedent.
And I, and I also want to say toCaitlin, and I might have
touched on this a little bit. Like I, there were, there have
been times in my history, whether it was in leadership or
(27:23):
just as an employee, where I probably should have been
masking, right? Like, for lack of a better word,
like, or I didn't fully understand whether it was
because of ADHD or just, you know, not getting the culture
necessarily or not reading the room right, where I said things
(27:46):
or did things that were just notgreat for the workspace.
I I, I wasn't reading the room well or I was oversharing or
taking something not as seriously as I should have
taken, right. Like, you know, I have done
those things and I don't feel like I'm talking about like
(28:07):
everyone should be able to behave poorly.
That's not, that's not the thingor everyone should be able to
say bad jokes in the workplace. You know, right, Because it's,
it's, it's more like everyone should be given the opportunity
to learn their style in the workplace.
(28:28):
And if it looks a little bit different, you know, whether
it's some people over share and some people connect with folks
through personal stories and that they shouldn't feel like
that's a bad thing, right? Or, or some people might talk a
little bit more meeting, some people might not want to talk in
meetings and like how can those meetings accommodate the
(28:49):
different styles work appropriate, right?
Like there's some things that shouldn't come to work with you,
but there shouldn't be one way of communicating or being in
order to be heard. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And to to your point as well, like the but let us not be
(29:09):
misunderstood here. We are certainly not lowering
the bar, yes, but the, the idea is that we, we also hold
ourselves to, to a higher standard.
Because honestly, whether whether you want to be in a
position of leadership or, you know, be, be, be seen as a, you
(29:30):
know, a good person to have on the team.
If you just want to be a good Coworker and be able to, you know,
get through a shift, feeling like a part of a team again,
like this comes back to a sense of belonging.
And the the thing that comes up so much in my research with
innovation and the teams that feel comfortable enough to
(29:56):
genuinely offer their creativityas a part of their job is the
safety to fail. The.
Safety to make mistakes and in the same way, if we approach
these, if we're going to call them mistakes as you were
talking about going through the learning process of how you
(30:19):
operate in the workplace, then we we can all have take the time
to better understand each other because I feel like this aspect
of leadership gets forgotten about or even just like
deprioritized all the time. It's not just about
(30:41):
understanding, you know, how your team works so that you can,
you know, provide, you know, the, the structure necessary
and, and even going back to whatyou're talking about with
neurodivergent folks and how youknow, we, we can best be be
leaders to, you know, different styles.
(31:02):
But understanding what, what everyone brings to the table
because in in those circumstances, like what what we
might see as someone being really tone deaf and and not
reading the room like this. This is still an opportunity to
(31:24):
teach and learn. But if if you don't have you
know a a mentor or leadership who is confident enough to
address it kindly with someone, then that lesson won't be
learned. You you read my mind, Caitlin.
I'm thinking back to times when I did to when I was a new leader
(31:46):
and making so many mistakes, so many mistakes.
And I think back on the people who respected me enough to tell
me I was making mistakes. And again, like, I didn't know
that I had, you know, an ADHD diagnosis at the time.
And so to me, I was like, this is just normal.
(32:09):
This is how leadership works, right?
And so it was helpful for peopleto respectfully.
And these were both my leaders and also people that worked for
me saying like, you know, this is how I felt when when this
went down or, you know, this is how that looked in that meeting
or this is what you know, this is, this is how your behavior
(32:30):
affected people. So invaluable.
And I can imagine what it would have looked like if someone had
said, Oh, that's just Lindy. She's a little neuro spicy.
We just let her. I like how disrespectful would
it would that have been? Like I would have been mortified
to know that maybe in the momentit would have felt good because
(32:51):
I would have felt like I was doing good leadership and not
known how it was affecting otherpeople.
But because people held me to the standards of my potential, I
was able to grow it as a leader.When people hold people others
to the standards of mediocrity, they can't grow.
(33:18):
Absolutely. You know, it makes me wonder,
Lindy, and not to get too deep here, but it kind of in a way is
starting to feel a little bit like something out of ADC comic,
like feeling very Batman esque like by so as as a collective,
(33:46):
because I don't want to imply that, you know, we're like any
one person or, you know, organization is responsible for
this because we're all responsible for the environments
that we create. But by making this kind of
behavior permissible and taking it as an opportunity to
(34:11):
dehumanize them. Are we making these sharks?
And these villains ourselves? Absolutely yes.
By holding folks to the standards of mediocrity because
of assumptions we have yes. Again, not blaming the victim.
(34:38):
Blaming the the society. That the victim is in?
Absolutely. Because of keeping in mind what
we just talked about that that there are some folks who it's
not safe to speak up. I, I also want to toot my own
horn here for a second. And, and I'm realizing part of
why I think people felt OK with bringing this to my attention
(35:03):
was because I consistently told my team, please hold me
accountable. I, I asked them regularly,
please tell me when I'm doing something wrong.
So I had to give them permissionconsistently and overtime and
prove that it was safe to get the feedback.
(35:25):
And I didn't always do it. Well, I'm I'm not trying to say
that I took feedback perfectly every time, or like I always
made everyone feel amazingly safe all the time, but I would.
Repeat myself in that way. As a way of like reminding
myself and my team that it's OK to call me out, It's OK to call
me out in a meeting, right? Like, yes, you can take me
(35:48):
aside. That's how I.
Will give. You feedback, but it's also OK
to show others that. Leadership requires a higher.
Level of accountability than those and non leadership.
So I think when a leader, whether it's intentional or not,
(36:13):
makes it seem like feedback is not OK to give.
Whether it's something as simpleas just having their door shut a
lot, or not having face to FaceTime available, or something
as overt as retaliation retaliatory behavior when
someone does give feedback. Then that's when.
(36:35):
Masking has to happen. That's when mediocrity wins, and
that's when workspaces feel unsafe.
Absolutely. And because we we are all
fallible and. Vulnerable to.
(37:00):
Mistakes we're we're all just part of the the learning process
and or excuse me, we're we're all going through the learning
process and one of my favorite Gaelic proverbs says we are to
learn as long as we live we. Never stop learning.
(37:21):
And honestly, at the end of the day, if a, a person like,
whether it's in the workplace or, you know, just as a, just as
a person, ultimately, if you're shutting yourself off to not
receiving any feedback and any help in, in that way from, from
(37:45):
other people, your community, your peers, your mentors, then
honestly, it's a huge disserviceto yourself as well.
And it's, it's sad how how crippling it can be and.
Caitlin, you that's a great. Point that you just made that
it's not just necessarily about feedback, it's about learning
(38:07):
and growing. So it's sometimes it's simply
the mentality that every person has something to teach me.
So it's not about. Catching me when I mess up or
make a mistake. That's part of it, but it's
about learning from everyone andthat there's no arrival point
(38:27):
where you need to stop learning.Yes, absolutely.
And the I'm just going to look up the name real quick to make
sure that I get her name correctly.
Becoming if I can. Spell.
(38:50):
I was so close and one of one ofmy favorite lessons where I, I
came across this concept that you're talking about Lindy, like
literally being able to learn from everyone is a concept that
I came across in Evie Pompouras's book Becoming
Bulletproof, in which she talks about ways to not only protect
(39:14):
yourself, but just to live a more fulfilled life in paying
attention to how you keep yourself safe both physically,
emotionally and mentally. She talks about seeking a mentor
is great because a a good mentoris number one, hard to find and
(39:36):
#2 can make a huge difference inyour, you know, professional and
you know, personal goals. But when you consider every
single person you meet as a mentor, whether they have a
positive lesson to teach you or if you're just learning well.
(39:57):
Based on how they operate. I'm I'm not going to operate.
That way. You know how not to act.
Yes, everyone. Is a mentor and.
You've literally opened up your world to be a learning
environment everywhere you go now.
I would put a very small asterisk after that, because as
(40:22):
a. As a girlie who is.
Recovering from spending just a little bit too much time in the
self development section of the bookstores.
Yes, I will say that it is also a healthy perspective to when
(40:46):
you take time. To.
Rest Recognize that you don't have to be learning and growing
in every single second of your life it.
Is a great goal. To want to learn and grow and
develop everything related. To.
You know your positive goals. However, I think it's really
(41:09):
important to also pair this witha balance for an appreciation of
who you are in this moment, all the work that you've done, all
these strides that you've made, the the ways that you've helped
other people like there is stillso much good to be had and
appreciated there as well. What I.
(41:30):
Hear you say, Caitlin is. That it's it's wonderful to.
Be in a. Space of always learning and
always learning from everyone, but not coming at it from a
place of lacking. So I'm thinking of.
Part of the masking that people do is that whole like
(41:52):
apologizing before they speak thing.
Which is often associated with. Women, not just women, but you
know, definitely, I think peoplewho don't have power in a room
will apologize before they even start to say anything.
And. It the message being sent is I
(42:15):
am lacking. And therefore.
I'm sorry to waste your time with what I'm about to say.
And. So.
You're exactly right, Caitlin. There's there's a balance there.
Always be learning. But also protect and be aware of
(42:36):
the times when you can rest, when you have something to
offer, when you're the teacher. And recognizing that coming.
From a place of always learning doesn't mean that you're coming.
From a place of not. Knowing right right because we.
(42:57):
Don't know what we don't know. Yeah, well, I think we've
dropped. Some serious wisdom today.
Most definitely and. Yeah, I, I.
Think back to so many. Of those moments of shrinking in
(43:22):
realizing, you know, like I should have masked there or I
shouldn't have said that or likeclearly this part of me is not
welcome in this space. And of course, those are, those
are all very uncomfortable, but I'm, I'm still grateful to have
had those experiences because I feel like at the very least they
(43:46):
can inform my experience or my relationships moving forward in,
you know, approaching these situations with more empathy
for, for those who not only haveexperienced the same, but also
in speaking out more, more firmly in those moments when,
(44:10):
when I have seen that and, and calling out the mediocrity
because. I I sincerely do believe that.
You know, every, every person wants to be better in in their
own way. You know, we we all want to be
good people, I think. And you know when when we can do
(44:30):
that together, I think. Not to get too mushy.
But. But we we really can.
You know, create better environments to to to be
successful together well. Said to be successful.
(44:51):
Together. Like what if we collectively
agreed to no longer? Hold some people to mediocre.
Standards and other people to impossible standards of
excellence at the same time. No one is served by that.
No one. Even the people who are being
(45:13):
held to mediocre standards, they're not gaining from that.
I mean that yeah, maybe they are, but.
The messaging there is that we. Expect nothing more from you.
We don't think you're capable. Yeah.
So what? If we were to kind.
Of recognize that holding people.
(45:36):
To the. Standards of their potential.
Across the board that that was where the.
Bar lies I I'm curious to know what kind what what that space
would feel like, right? I respect you so much, I want
(45:57):
you to grow to. Yeah, well, I, I hope.
When people listen to this, theycan share stories of spaces
where they've been held to appropriate standards or growth
standards or spaces when maybe that wasn't happening.
(46:18):
I'd love to hear stories, absolutely.
Absolutely. Or, you know, even when that
degree of mediocrity is glorified, you know, I, I will
say that I feel like we're starting to come out of that
kind of, you know, sleepy, sleepy, like dreamlike state of,
(46:43):
you know, just being part of the, the, the corporate machine
and, you know, just automatically affording like all
of this respect and, you know, praise to executive CE OS, what
have you. But yeah, I'm looking forward to
to seeing where it goes, especially as we raise those
(47:05):
standards. Exactly.
Well. Caitlin, when you are not
spending this wonderful time in the burnout break room, where
can we find you? You.
Can usually find me by the coffee machine.
(47:30):
Same. Same but also.
At caitlintruehella.com as well as on most of social media like
Instagram, Tiktok as let me start that over as well as
social media like such as Instagram and Tiktok at creative
(47:55):
Caitlin so. For anyone who's.
Looking for creative consulting or coaching?
And even if your art specifically centers around
writing, I do writer coaching aswell, and book editing as well
as ideation sessions, so you canfind me there.
(48:20):
And Lindy, when you are not in this beautiful break room, where
can people find you, Lindy? Larimore.com.
Is a great place to start. I also have some social media,
Instagram, LinkedIn, some Facebook.
(48:41):
Yeah, I would love to see and hear from folks.
It's been nice. We're starting to get more
feedback about the podcast, which has been really great.
Keep it coming, especially the nice feedback.
That's our favorite. But you know, we'll we'll take
all of it. Oh, absolutely and very much.
On brand for today too, we're talking about being, you know,
(49:03):
leaders comfortable enough to toreceive feedback.
We we encourage that too. Like exactly we're going to
we're going to talk the talk andand walk the walk as well.
So yeah, if there's, we appreciate feedback on the the
podcast. Absolutely.
Well, thank you, Caitlin, and I look forward to seeing you next
time. Until next time.
(49:24):
Thanks, Lindy.
Welcome back to Burnout Break Room, the podcast that is like a
break room but helpful, where welook at burnout through a
realistic lens, talk about ways to take a break from the grind,
and spill the tea. I'm Caitlin Trujela, creativity
coach and speaker. And I'm Lindy Larimore, licensed
therapist, certified career coach and consultant.
(00:28):
We are your hosts and thank you for joining us here in the
Burnout Break Room. Welcome.
Welcome, Lindy. It is so good to see you here
again in the break room. How are you today?
I am pretty great actually. Yeah, I, I don't have too many
complaints. It's kind of the summer is
(00:49):
wrapping up. It's been beautiful in my part
of the world. I've been able to enjoy some
beautiful music and concerts andhad some time off and feeling
restored. How about you, love?
To hear it, color me restored aswell because it's, it's funny to
see like how the transitions of like one season into another
(01:14):
happen in the desert because I love storms and especially like
Thunder and lightning storms. Oh my gosh, like that.
Honestly, that's probably one ofthe reasons why I love
vacationing to super cloudy places.
That and having to deal with the, the prospect of getting
(01:35):
sunburnt in the shade, but theseThunder and lightning storms out
here are something else. It's there's so much energy, you
know, packed into it. Like it's so powerful, you know,
feeling that, that change in theair, like literally feeling the
electricity in the air that Oh my gosh, that is so restorative
(02:00):
to me. And it's over the past couple of
days we've had multiple. So it's just been wonderful.
Oh, that's exciting. That's exciting.
It's nice to. I feel like thunderstorms can
feel very magical sometimes. And it's nice to to have that
experience I had as a musician It there's something about
studying music that takes the magic right out of music.
(02:23):
And for the first time in a lot of years, I feel like I attended
a concert and I felt the magic again.
And it was really nice. I was like finally, like I felt
like, you know, like when you'rea teenager and it's, it's like,
you know, music is magical. So it was, it was really nice to
(02:45):
have that experience and not feel like a jaded, you know, old
musician, which I am, don't get me wrong, but I, I didn't feel
like one for a second. That is so special.
And, you know, I, I know exactlywhat you're talking about in
terms of like re reconnecting with the, the magic or the, the
(03:09):
circumstance of it all. Because, yeah, when you, when
you study something for so long and you're, you know, embroiled
in the in the midst of it, you know, it's literally like
cooking in the soup. You know, it's, it's hard to see
the the forest for the trees andreally be able to step back and,
you know, witness the the awe ofit.
And honestly, like, especially Ifeel like when it comes to
(03:32):
performance as well, you know, it's, it's one thing to be in
the community, be in the moment,like as it's happening, but
obviously until we perfect teleportation, you can't, you
know, experience it like as the audience does to see, to see
everything like come together. And I, I, I think I mentioned
(03:55):
this in a previous podcast as episodes as well, but having the
same experience, like coming outof, you know, getting my
literature degree, like, OK, this was, this was all really
fun. I love literature and learning
all about it and the diving headfirst into the technical aspects
of writing. Now I have to figure out what I
(04:15):
like. Just zaps all the joy.
Out of it just zaps all the joy or for me, it was like, I really
like this piece of music and I feel like I'm not allowed to
anymore. It's not complicated enough or
it's too good sounding like it should sound very complicated
(04:37):
and a little nerve rattling or else it's not good enough music.
And so I just fully embraced a piece that I used to love and,
you know, felt judged for lovingfor years.
And then I was just like, Nope, I'm going to love it and I'm
going to have fun listening to it so everyone can go kick
rocks, fly a kite. Thank you, yes that I love it.
(05:04):
The the funniest thing too is I'm almost exclusively a Spotify
user when it comes to music. But the funniest thing about
getting my Spotify wrapped at the end of basically every year
is seeing that I almost can't say it.
(05:27):
The music that I primarily listen to is between almost
exclusively like 3 genres. It's either classical music,
like very highbrow, right? And then like maybe some chill
lo fi, you know, like instrumental jazz to have on
(05:48):
like when I'm, you know, studying or working in the
background. And then like, I don't even know
if it has an official genre name, but it's like lowbrow
comedy songs like everything from Bo Burnham.
And please don't anybody come atme for calling Bo Burnham
lowbrow. But also like my recent favorite
(06:10):
and for all all my TikTok folks out there, the the OTC,
especially the the half horse half man song.
Oh, I need to learn more about this.
I will. Absolute nonsense.
And I've never seen you laugh sohard, so it must be amazing.
(06:34):
It just, it brings me so much joy and like, yeah, you know,
when in terms of music and what is considered like, you know
what, what is indicative of goodtaste?
Yeah. I, I really don't give a shit
what it, what it means like to other people that I like this
music. It brings me joy.
Yeah, exactly. Well, I'm no longer of the age
(06:58):
where I care what people think of my music taste.
If I like it, I like it. Yes.
And for heaven's sakes, like forall of the time that we spend
masking and not talking about, like, our real experiences and,
you know, real thoughts and realjoys, yeah, we need to.
(07:20):
We absolutely can revel in what we do enjoy.
Speaking of masking, have you had the experience, Caitlin,
where you're in a workplace, maybe not even in the workplace,
but in in a situation where there are people around you who
(07:42):
are not masking in a way that seems kind of baffling that they
could kind of get away with not masking with the amount of
energy required to mask? Oh, absolutely.
And even even in all of those pieces that that you're throwing
down like sick raps, emphasis onsick.
(08:11):
Yes, I'm catching every single one of them.
Because the funniest part about all of this is that I sincerely
wish so many of my Co workers were better at masking because
it's at least in my experience. And maybe maybe you've had
different, different experience,Lindy, but the majority of the
(08:34):
time, the people that I come across that clearly don't
actively mask in these spaces are on the more mediocre side.
And maybe in this in this situation, masking would be
actually encouraged. Say more.
(08:57):
To have the confidence of a mediocre white man.
What would I give? What would I give to be able to
walk in a room, do whatever you want, want or not do whatever
you want, and then receive so much praise?
(09:20):
Yeah. So in my experience, I often see
this go down in kind of the likethe overly educated spaces,
whatever that is, whether it's amedical degree, psychiatry,
academia, there's this whole thing, there's this whole myth
(09:41):
out there that I really want to debunk right now that the the
higher the education, the more shenanigans you should be
allowed to engage in. And I don't mean necessarily
like bad behavior, which is absolutely a thing that happens.
But I'm talking more about just like being rude, not having
(10:03):
people skills, not doing your paperwork, somehow thinking that
your degree keeps you from having to do paperwork and
somehow means that someone else should be doing it for you.
And then for people to be like, Oh well, you know their type.
You, you know about them. And I, I, no, I don't.
(10:25):
Enlighten me. What does this mean?
Yes, please explain it. Please explain to me how a how
an executive that makes 6 figures plus does not know how
to open an attachment and somehow that is now my
responsibility. Yes, yes.
(10:49):
And here's another, here's another thing, here's a, here's
a form of ableism that I want tocall out in the workplace.
And, and I, I, I had a client talk to me about this the other
day and they're, they were like,I'd feel so bad saying this, you
know, this feels wrong or like disrespectful, but we, we were
(11:10):
able to recognize, no, this is ableism.
The amount of times I've heard someone say to me, oh, well,
that's just because they're on the spectrum to describe bad
behavior, disrespectful behavior, that friends is
ableism because the implication there is they are incapable of
(11:31):
being respectful because they are on the spectrum.
I've met some people on the spectrum who are wildly
respectful, who are kind, who are thoughtful, who?
Do their. Job So I just want to call out
(11:52):
the ableism that is because theyhave blank some form of
neurodiversity, some form of mental health diagnosis, maybe a
recognized disability that it means that they automatically
don't have to be held to standards of appropriate work
(12:14):
behavior. I I call that ableism.
And it most absolutely is. And honestly, I would take it a
step further, Lindy, because in addition to forming that as an
excuse for disrespectful behavior, which I know there
have been so many studies on even just how incivility in the
(12:36):
workplace can affect people's team morale, individual morale,
and individual mental health as well.
It also goes even farther to perpetuate stereotypes that
people with different mental conditions are all incapable of
being civil or respectful people, and that's just not
(13:00):
true. Bingo, exactly it.
And, and I want to call out a very specific version of this.
So I've worked in spaces where there are folks who again, many
different kinds of degrees, manydifferent levels of education.
And the folks who are held to the lowest standards of work
(13:21):
appropriate behavior are often the folks who are paid the most
and are the most they educated or have the most power.
The folks in my experience who are held to the highest
standards are often the people who are paid the least.
And specifically in mental health spaces, oftentimes people
(13:44):
who are hired because of their lived experience as soon as they
have lived. I, I don't know how to say this.
Like as soon as they say model, you know, I'm struggling right
now. I'm, I'm experiencing some
anxiety. I'm going to go use this coping
skill. I'm going to go take, you know,
practice self-care, do their jobas, as, as someone who has lived
(14:06):
experience. Part of that's modeling and
advocacy to then be discriminated against because
they have lived experience. And I've talked about it.
But the folks, you know, that are higher up who are just
behaving badly are then defendedand explained to ways like,
(14:27):
well, we're not going to actually address that because,
oh, that's just so, and so, you know, they're, they're on the
spectrum. So that's just their behavior.
Right. The if I can use a piece of
media to kind of illustrate my understanding of what you're
talking about Lindy is I think of the original episodes of
(14:48):
Shark Tank and to now, obviouslyin in this circumstance, like
these are individual, individualinvestors, but they, in my
experience, model so many of thesame like leadership personas
that we see in executive spaces.This expectation that in order
(15:09):
to be a good leader and to do your job well, you need to be a
shark. You need to be this ambitious,
business savvy person that has taken their own personal persona
and completely tucked it away and therefore is not sharing the
the vulnerable side of themselves.
(15:31):
And so to use this example of these particular individuals in
in this piece of media, you still have the representation of
different personalities in that room.
Right there in the original, I believe there were there were 5
investors and some portrayed themselves.
(15:53):
Know whether this was written into the show or sincerely is
them. I I don't know.
That's not for me to to make that evaluation.
But the different personas that were represented as you have
individuals who are exclusively a shark, you know, like if the
deal doesn't go down the way they want and they don't, you
(16:14):
know, quote UN quote when then they say things like this person
is dead to me, Who are they? I've forgotten them already.
You know, it is exclusively about the business.
It is exclusively about the money.
It is that, you know, laser focused, like shark mentality,
whereas you have other and of course, this is just a a part of
like how you know, media and storytelling works.
(16:36):
You, you have to have foils, Youhave to have different
characters that playoff of each other.
And so you have other investors in this representation who do
take a more heart centered approach, you know, like
they're, they're talking to the,to the entrepreneur.
Oh, I have a great deal of respect.
Like, look, they, they came hereand they're, you know, I
(16:57):
recognize your struggle and they, they would even offer
parts of their own experience. You know, my, my wife and I
struggled with this or like my, my kid has experience with this
and as related to your product or your story or what not.
And so they are sharing those vulnerable pieces of themselves,
albeit relatively small and through the, through the lens of
(17:20):
entertainment. But, and This is why I feel like
it's such an accessible way of looking at this is, yeah, in, in
terms of business, you might want the the shark like bringing
in the money for you, but nobodylikes working with that person
because you're not working with a person.
It's, it's a persona. It is a, it is a single
(17:44):
function. Yeah, yeah.
And, and one where doing harm what even if it's just like
micro harm, right? It's considered part of the job
description, but often the, the the folks that are on the ground
level could never get away with doing that kind of harm to
(18:08):
others, especially if it's like up the ladder.
Yeah, I, I basically what we're talking about here, Caitlin, is
like, who is expected to mask and who doesn't have to mask?
Who can get away with not doing any of that emotional labor of
(18:29):
keeping that mask on? Exactly.
And I, I love the the note on emotion there too, because it's,
it's not just emotional labor, but it's how we represent
ourselves. And case in point, for a lot of
the prejudices around when it comes to conduct in the
(18:49):
workplace, who is allowed to have an emotional response to
something? Because if a like if a man who
is a vice president or you know,as ACEO or whatever, fill, fill
in the blank of like, you know, position of power goes off on
(19:10):
somebody in a meeting, Oh, well,they're just, they're just being
assertive. They're, they're just, you know,
sticking to, to business and what, what needs to be done.
Yes yes not bitchy or a nasty, you know it's that that's just
they're just doing their job. I also want to call out myself a
(19:32):
little bit too, Caitlin, like how the times when I didn't
mask. So I think the other side of
this conversation too. And I've had this, I've had this
yesterday with an executive woman with ADHD.
And it's like, I know this is unfair, but that was a situation
(19:54):
in which I should have masked, even though I'd like to think
that I didn't have to. And I've certainly gone through
the wringer of that experience too, where I.
Didn't understand the importanceof masking and I'm not, I'm not
defending it, but I'm just recognizing that if you are
(20:18):
someone who say is no divergent or a person of color, a person
with a different cultural background and the, the majority
of people in power, a big part of your experience of whether
it's leadership or just being inthe workplace is the kind of
heartbreaking times where it waslike, Oh, I was supposed to mask
(20:40):
there. And because I didn't, I feel
like I now have like potentiallymonths and years of work to do
to regain respect or to maybe make sure that I can keep my job
right. I'm also I I also want to call
out that we're we're talking about masking because that's the
term that I most relate to, but it also applies to things like
(21:03):
code switching. Yes.
And how if a person let something slip in certain
situations and certain positionsnot of power, they could, it
could affect the longevity of their job.
Whereas if someone in a positionof power let something slip, it
could just be a roll the eyes. Oh, that's just so and so that's
(21:27):
how they are. Absolutely.
And another thing that you're reminding me of Lindy is
especially when it comes to leadership development, the how
sometimes dismissive it can comeacross to give the advice or, or
the feedback to somebody who is seeking mentorship to just speak
(21:52):
up more. You know, you, you need to we,
we need to hear from you more and like that that being like
the primary entry point to visibility in the workplace.
But at the same time not recognizing that all all of the
hoops that you know, somebody inyou know, intersectional spaces
(22:14):
or coming from different backgrounds would experience.
There is more risk in being morevisible and speaking out more
because to your point, if something slips, then it's not
just the emotional reaction of Ididn't mean to say that.
Now there's there's more awareness about me personally
(22:37):
than that I'm comfortable with in in the in the workplace.
But as you were saying before, like potentially, you know,
looking down the line and seeinghow much work do I need to do
now in order to undo this or to,you know, re re establish
supposed credibility or, or anything like that.
(22:57):
But yeah, it's, it's frustrating.
You know how how often times people in positions of
leadership like even when they are willing to be mentors, that
they don't recognize the, the difficulties that their their
mentees are are facing and why you know, making yourself more
(23:18):
visible is not an easy ask. Yes, I'm getting chills hearing
this, Caitlin, because I'm remembering a time in my career
where I was involved in, in somelike a committee in, in a place
where the racial equity work wasbeing done.
(23:39):
And there is this moment where, you know, we all kind of
collectively, collectively agreed that there was a race
problem at this place where we were working.
And the ask was always, you know, on the the folks in lower
positions. I, I don't like that
terminology, but, you know, lower paid positions to speak up
(24:04):
about racism. And finally, a woman of color in
an executive position said we cannot ask them to do that until
the soil has been tended appropriately for it to be safe
for them to do that. And if the soil is not tended
(24:24):
appropriately for safety, then A, we're not going to know
what's going on because the people who are getting the worst
of it are going to be too afraidto say anything for good reason,
to your point. And so I think that that
terminology really stuck with meand my challenge to folks in
leadership, if you have any kindof leadership title, ask
(24:48):
yourself, is the soil tended? Is this, is this a safe
situation for folks to speak up?And if not, why not?
Absolutely. And going back to one of the
things we were talking about previously, it's it also I think
(25:10):
has a, a big impact on the individual communications,
right? Because we, we can have all
kinds of messaging that comes throughout the, the, the company
or the, the enterprise. But what leadership speaks to
individually, I think carries the most weight.
(25:30):
And when we look at how we talk about these things, very much
sets sets the tone for not only leadership, but also, you know,
people on the on the front line as well.
It's almost as if once, like as a leader, once you give
permission to talk about different things, then, you
(25:55):
know, people on the on the frontlines are enabled and and
empowered to, you know, be be honest about those things.
Because I mean, as it's, it seems a silly and an obvious
thing to say, but like, yeah, ithappens to it has to happen at
leadership first because they they set the precedent and what
(26:17):
it what is that phrase like? It's the the worst behavior that
leadership allows will set the bar for everyone else.
Yes, absolutely. And I, and I think leadership
needs to look at where is this behavior allowed, right?
(26:40):
Because I think that, you know, the, the thought that came to
mind for me was, you know, insubordinates.
Like I feel like there's an assumption that we're talking
about subordinates, but there's also that, you know, if there's
also this messaging that if you are under a certain level,
you're not allowed to have any bad behavior.
But if you're above a certain level, then have at it, you're
(27:01):
protected then yes. And that also sends a very clear
message and, and sets very clearprecedent.
And I, and I also want to say toCaitlin, and I might have
touched on this a little bit. Like I, there were, there have
been times in my history, whether it was in leadership or
(27:23):
just as an employee, where I probably should have been
masking, right? Like, for lack of a better word,
like, or I didn't fully understand whether it was
because of ADHD or just, you know, not getting the culture
necessarily or not reading the room right, where I said things
(27:46):
or did things that were just notgreat for the workspace.
I I, I wasn't reading the room well or I was oversharing or
taking something not as seriously as I should have
taken, right. Like, you know, I have done
those things and I don't feel like I'm talking about like
(28:07):
everyone should be able to behave poorly.
That's not, that's not the thingor everyone should be able to
say bad jokes in the workplace. You know, right, Because it's,
it's, it's more like everyone should be given the opportunity
to learn their style in the workplace.
(28:28):
And if it looks a little bit different, you know, whether
it's some people over share and some people connect with folks
through personal stories and that they shouldn't feel like
that's a bad thing, right? Or, or some people might talk a
little bit more meeting, some people might not want to talk in
meetings and like how can those meetings accommodate the
(28:49):
different styles work appropriate, right?
Like there's some things that shouldn't come to work with you,
but there shouldn't be one way of communicating or being in
order to be heard. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And to to your point as well, like the but let us not be
(29:09):
misunderstood here. We are certainly not lowering
the bar, yes, but the, the idea is that we, we also hold
ourselves to, to a higher standard.
Because honestly, whether whether you want to be in a
position of leadership or, you know, be, be, be seen as a, you
(29:30):
know, a good person to have on the team.
If you just want to be a good Coworker and be able to, you know,
get through a shift, feeling like a part of a team again,
like this comes back to a sense of belonging.
And the the thing that comes up so much in my research with
innovation and the teams that feel comfortable enough to
(29:56):
genuinely offer their creativityas a part of their job is the
safety to fail. The.
Safety to make mistakes and in the same way, if we approach
these, if we're going to call them mistakes as you were
talking about going through the learning process of how you
(30:19):
operate in the workplace, then we we can all have take the time
to better understand each other because I feel like this aspect
of leadership gets forgotten about or even just like
deprioritized all the time. It's not just about
(30:41):
understanding, you know, how your team works so that you can,
you know, provide, you know, the, the structure necessary
and, and even going back to whatyou're talking about with
neurodivergent folks and how youknow, we, we can best be be
leaders to, you know, different styles.
(31:02):
But understanding what, what everyone brings to the table
because in in those circumstances, like what what we
might see as someone being really tone deaf and and not
reading the room like this. This is still an opportunity to
(31:24):
teach and learn. But if if you don't have you
know a a mentor or leadership who is confident enough to
address it kindly with someone, then that lesson won't be
learned. You you read my mind, Caitlin.
I'm thinking back to times when I did to when I was a new leader
(31:46):
and making so many mistakes, so many mistakes.
And I think back on the people who respected me enough to tell
me I was making mistakes. And again, like, I didn't know
that I had, you know, an ADHD diagnosis at the time.
And so to me, I was like, this is just normal.
(32:09):
This is how leadership works, right?
And so it was helpful for peopleto respectfully.
And these were both my leaders and also people that worked for
me saying like, you know, this is how I felt when when this
went down or, you know, this is how that looked in that meeting
or this is what you know, this is, this is how your behavior
(32:30):
affected people. So invaluable.
And I can imagine what it would have looked like if someone had
said, Oh, that's just Lindy. She's a little neuro spicy.
We just let her. I like how disrespectful would
it would that have been? Like I would have been mortified
to know that maybe in the momentit would have felt good because
(32:51):
I would have felt like I was doing good leadership and not
known how it was affecting otherpeople.
But because people held me to the standards of my potential, I
was able to grow it as a leader.When people hold people others
to the standards of mediocrity, they can't grow.
(33:18):
Absolutely. You know, it makes me wonder,
Lindy, and not to get too deep here, but it kind of in a way is
starting to feel a little bit like something out of ADC comic,
like feeling very Batman esque like by so as as a collective,
(33:46):
because I don't want to imply that, you know, we're like any
one person or, you know, organization is responsible for
this because we're all responsible for the environments
that we create. But by making this kind of
behavior permissible and taking it as an opportunity to
(34:11):
dehumanize them. Are we making these sharks?
And these villains ourselves? Absolutely yes.
By holding folks to the standards of mediocrity because
of assumptions we have yes. Again, not blaming the victim.
(34:38):
Blaming the the society. That the victim is in?
Absolutely. Because of keeping in mind what
we just talked about that that there are some folks who it's
not safe to speak up. I, I also want to toot my own
horn here for a second. And, and I'm realizing part of
why I think people felt OK with bringing this to my attention
(35:03):
was because I consistently told my team, please hold me
accountable. I, I asked them regularly,
please tell me when I'm doing something wrong.
So I had to give them permissionconsistently and overtime and
prove that it was safe to get the feedback.
(35:25):
And I didn't always do it. Well, I'm I'm not trying to say
that I took feedback perfectly every time, or like I always
made everyone feel amazingly safe all the time, but I would.
Repeat myself in that way. As a way of like reminding
myself and my team that it's OK to call me out, It's OK to call
me out in a meeting, right? Like, yes, you can take me
(35:48):
aside. That's how I.
Will give. You feedback, but it's also OK
to show others that. Leadership requires a higher.
Level of accountability than those and non leadership.
So I think when a leader, whether it's intentional or not,
(36:13):
makes it seem like feedback is not OK to give.
Whether it's something as simpleas just having their door shut a
lot, or not having face to FaceTime available, or something
as overt as retaliation retaliatory behavior when
someone does give feedback. Then that's when.
(36:35):
Masking has to happen. That's when mediocrity wins, and
that's when workspaces feel unsafe.
Absolutely. And because we we are all
fallible and. Vulnerable to.
(37:00):
Mistakes we're we're all just part of the the learning process
and or excuse me, we're we're all going through the learning
process and one of my favorite Gaelic proverbs says we are to
learn as long as we live we. Never stop learning.
(37:21):
And honestly, at the end of the day, if a, a person like,
whether it's in the workplace or, you know, just as a, just as
a person, ultimately, if you're shutting yourself off to not
receiving any feedback and any help in, in that way from, from
(37:45):
other people, your community, your peers, your mentors, then
honestly, it's a huge disserviceto yourself as well.
And it's, it's sad how how crippling it can be and.
Caitlin, you that's a great. Point that you just made that
it's not just necessarily about feedback, it's about learning
(38:07):
and growing. So it's sometimes it's simply
the mentality that every person has something to teach me.
So it's not about. Catching me when I mess up or
make a mistake. That's part of it, but it's
about learning from everyone andthat there's no arrival point
(38:27):
where you need to stop learning.Yes, absolutely.
And the I'm just going to look up the name real quick to make
sure that I get her name correctly.
Becoming if I can. Spell.
(38:50):
I was so close and one of one ofmy favorite lessons where I, I
came across this concept that you're talking about Lindy, like
literally being able to learn from everyone is a concept that
I came across in Evie Pompouras's book Becoming
Bulletproof, in which she talks about ways to not only protect
(39:14):
yourself, but just to live a more fulfilled life in paying
attention to how you keep yourself safe both physically,
emotionally and mentally. She talks about seeking a mentor
is great because a a good mentoris number one, hard to find and
(39:36):
#2 can make a huge difference inyour, you know, professional and
you know, personal goals. But when you consider every
single person you meet as a mentor, whether they have a
positive lesson to teach you or if you're just learning well.
(39:57):
Based on how they operate. I'm I'm not going to operate.
That way. You know how not to act.
Yes, everyone. Is a mentor and.
You've literally opened up your world to be a learning
environment everywhere you go now.
I would put a very small asterisk after that, because as
(40:22):
a. As a girlie who is.
Recovering from spending just a little bit too much time in the
self development section of the bookstores.
Yes, I will say that it is also a healthy perspective to when
(40:46):
you take time. To.
Rest Recognize that you don't have to be learning and growing
in every single second of your life it.
Is a great goal. To want to learn and grow and
develop everything related. To.
You know your positive goals. However, I think it's really
(41:09):
important to also pair this witha balance for an appreciation of
who you are in this moment, all the work that you've done, all
these strides that you've made, the the ways that you've helped
other people like there is stillso much good to be had and
appreciated there as well. What I.
(41:30):
Hear you say, Caitlin is. That it's it's wonderful to.
Be in a. Space of always learning and
always learning from everyone, but not coming at it from a
place of lacking. So I'm thinking of.
Part of the masking that people do is that whole like
(41:52):
apologizing before they speak thing.
Which is often associated with. Women, not just women, but you
know, definitely, I think peoplewho don't have power in a room
will apologize before they even start to say anything.
And. It the message being sent is I
(42:15):
am lacking. And therefore.
I'm sorry to waste your time with what I'm about to say.
And. So.
You're exactly right, Caitlin. There's there's a balance there.
Always be learning. But also protect and be aware of
(42:36):
the times when you can rest, when you have something to
offer, when you're the teacher. And recognizing that coming.
From a place of always learning doesn't mean that you're coming.
From a place of not. Knowing right right because we.
(42:57):
Don't know what we don't know. Yeah, well, I think we've
dropped. Some serious wisdom today.
Most definitely and. Yeah, I, I.
Think back to so many. Of those moments of shrinking in
(43:22):
realizing, you know, like I should have masked there or I
shouldn't have said that or likeclearly this part of me is not
welcome in this space. And of course, those are, those
are all very uncomfortable, but I'm, I'm still grateful to have
had those experiences because I feel like at the very least they
(43:46):
can inform my experience or my relationships moving forward in,
you know, approaching these situations with more empathy
for, for those who not only haveexperienced the same, but also
in speaking out more, more firmly in those moments when,
(44:10):
when I have seen that and, and calling out the mediocrity
because. I I sincerely do believe that.
You know, every, every person wants to be better in in their
own way. You know, we we all want to be
good people, I think. And you know when when we can do
(44:30):
that together, I think. Not to get too mushy.
But. But we we really can.
You know, create better environments to to to be
successful together well. Said to be successful.
(44:51):
Together. Like what if we collectively
agreed to no longer? Hold some people to mediocre.
Standards and other people to impossible standards of
excellence at the same time. No one is served by that.
No one. Even the people who are being
(45:13):
held to mediocre standards, they're not gaining from that.
I mean that yeah, maybe they are, but.
The messaging there is that we. Expect nothing more from you.
We don't think you're capable. Yeah.
So what? If we were to kind.
Of recognize that holding people.
(45:36):
To the. Standards of their potential.
Across the board that that was where the.
Bar lies I I'm curious to know what kind what what that space
would feel like, right? I respect you so much, I want
(45:57):
you to grow to. Yeah, well, I, I hope.
When people listen to this, theycan share stories of spaces
where they've been held to appropriate standards or growth
standards or spaces when maybe that wasn't happening.
(46:18):
I'd love to hear stories, absolutely.
Absolutely. Or, you know, even when that
degree of mediocrity is glorified, you know, I, I will
say that I feel like we're starting to come out of that
kind of, you know, sleepy, sleepy, like dreamlike state of,
(46:43):
you know, just being part of the, the, the corporate machine
and, you know, just automatically affording like all
of this respect and, you know, praise to executive CE OS, what
have you. But yeah, I'm looking forward to
to seeing where it goes, especially as we raise those
(47:05):
standards. Exactly.
Well. Caitlin, when you are not
spending this wonderful time in the burnout break room, where
can we find you? You.
Can usually find me by the coffee machine.
(47:30):
Same. Same but also.
At caitlintruehella.com as well as on most of social media like
Instagram, Tiktok as let me start that over as well as
social media like such as Instagram and Tiktok at creative
(47:55):
Caitlin so. For anyone who's.
Looking for creative consulting or coaching?
And even if your art specifically centers around
writing, I do writer coaching aswell, and book editing as well
as ideation sessions, so you canfind me there.
(48:20):
And Lindy, when you are not in this beautiful break room, where
can people find you, Lindy? Larimore.com.
Is a great place to start. I also have some social media,
Instagram, LinkedIn, some Facebook.
(48:41):
Yeah, I would love to see and hear from folks.
It's been nice. We're starting to get more
feedback about the podcast, which has been really great.
Keep it coming, especially the nice feedback.
That's our favorite. But you know, we'll we'll take
all of it. Oh, absolutely and very much.
On brand for today too, we're talking about being, you know,
(49:03):
leaders comfortable enough to toreceive feedback.
We we encourage that too. Like exactly we're going to
we're going to talk the talk andand walk the walk as well.
So yeah, if there's, we appreciate feedback on the the
podcast. Absolutely.
Well, thank you, Caitlin, and I look forward to seeing you next
time. Until next time.
(49:24):
Thanks, Lindy.
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