Ever wondered what it's really like to be a professional food critic? Lifting the veil on three decades of culinary journalism, this episode features an awesome conversation with Jolene Ketzenberger, Indianapolis's preeminent food writer whose career spans the transformation from traditional print reviews to today's digital landscape.
Ketzenberger takes us behind the scenes of old-school restaurant criticism—where critics visited establishments multiple times under pseudonyms, tested restroom cleanliness with strategically placed paperclips, and scrutinized every aspect of the dining experience. Her stories reveal how thoroughly critics once evaluated restaurants before social media transformed food writing forever.
We dive deep into the cyclical nature of dining trends, particularly examining the decade-long shift away from white tablecloths toward casual dining environments. "I do think that we are going to see a swing back toward more acceptance of fine dining," Ketzenberger predicts, "and I do think the tablecloths are coming back."
We also explores how COVID-19 reshaped the culinary landscape, forcing innovation while devastating countless establishments. Ketzenberger shares her experience launching a restaurant accelerator mere weeks before pandemic shutdowns.
For food enthusiasts, aspiring critics, and industry professionals alike, this episode offers invaluable perspective on the ever-evolving relationship between restaurants and those who write about them. Whether you're curious about regional Midwestern cuisine, the future of fine dining, or what really happens when a critic sits down at your table, you'll find yourself captivated by this insider's tour through the fascinating world of food criticism.
Follow Jolene Ketzenberger on social media and learn more about Culinary Crossroads to discover Indiana's vibrant food scene:
https://www.instagram.com/jolene.ketzenberger/
https://www.instagram.com/culinarycrossroadsin/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listen up here.
The restaurant industry isgrueling and unpredictable, just
like this show.
From the front of the house tothe back of the house and all in
between.
We will turn up the heat, youturn up the volume.
I'm Chef Antonio Caruana.
Welcome to the Tell All Podcastat Burnt Hands for a Record.
All right, let's introduce you,because your name is written
(00:23):
down on multiple publications.
For how many years?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh my goodness, Do we have to do that?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yes, we have to do it .
Come on, I'm no spring chickeneither.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So over 30 years I've been writing about Indianapolis
, okay.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, I've been cooking for 30 years.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Okay, there we go.
We're on the same page, okay.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So tell us about yourself a little bit, because I
want everyone out there to knowwhen you're, when you're in
Indianapolis, you're here.
They know who you are, right,anyone who's a foodie.
Right, people who go outlooking for food.
So everyone who's going to bewatching who's not from here.
Right, you bring something thatis in every city, right you?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
you are the one here, right, there's people, there's
everywhere.
That's right.
You go somewhere else, you findsomebody like me to talk to,
right.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Sure, so go ahead, tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, so I've been writing about food and dining
cooking here in central Indianafor a long time over 30 years.
I work for our general interestmagazine, indianapolis Monthly.
A long time ago.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
But that was a big publication though, because this
was before social media.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Before social media.
That's what they like to saythe original influencers.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Right, and then we were talking about a time when,
a time that I miss, a time thatI talk about as a culinary.
It's really hard for me toaccept so much that's going on
social media.
Now it has its place here weare on it, of course.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Here we are on it.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So I've chose, and we've chose to spread our word
using it, and we've chose tospread our word using it, but we
didn't want to overcrowd it.
We wanted to do somethingdifferent, almost as if we're
doing a virtual article.
Right, right, right, becauseeverybody can food blog, anybody
can do this, and that takesaway from you, correct?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
It kind of does.
It did with all the bloggingand stuff that came on.
It opened up the business,right, right.
But I came in when there wasstill restaurant critics, you
know, and that was what they did.
And they, you know, they wentto some place several times,
multiple times.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I like her already, I like you already.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
We're talking, you know and so I came up kind of
old school with the.
You know, the restaurant criticwas the editor of the magazine
and if you got to go along on arestaurant review, that was
awesome because of course theypicked up the tab and you got to
go to nice places.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
And they had a name.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And they had a name and she was probably trying to
hide menus in her purse at thetime because nothing was online.
And so that's when I started.
And so the idea was that if youdid a restaurant review, you
didn't want them to know thatyou were there.
You made a reservation insomebody else's name.
You went three or four times,you ordered, you took people
(02:47):
with you so that you could haveall sorts of different foods.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So you went three or four times.
So that's a big eye opener fora lot of people.
A lot of people think you wentone time.
That was it.
They could have had a bad andit's a hard way to judge that
way right it is.
It's not fair.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Huh, it could have had a bad evening, but you want
to see what they're like for theregular person.
So you don't want to say, oh hi, I'm the editor of whatever you
know, get me in.
No, you want to kind of slip in.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
See what it's like for a normal day, and see what
it's like for a normal day.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Look around, you know .
Is it dusty?
Are the restrooms clean?
And you're looking at all of it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Can you say that again for the people in the back
?
People don't realize that inthe restaurant world and I'm so
hard on my staff about thatparticular thing, you have to be
hard on yourself If there's achip on the wall of paint.
Why is it still there?
Why is?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
it still there?
Why are the things scuffed up?
Why is the wall scuffed?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Why is there dust on this thing?
Why is my charger plate notright?
Why is this all?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
happening.
I remember reading a story of aNew York Times restaurant
critic who would go into therestroom and set a paper clip on
the edge of the sink and thenhe would go back in later and
see if that paper clip had beenswooped away Sure.
And if it had, then he knewsomebody was checking the
restrooms and and you know, andso the restrooms are a great
(03:58):
example.
Sure, they are a great example.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
If you're in a dining room to be entertained and you
want to go in the bathroom andyou're going to take care of
your personal business, why isthe area where you're taking
care of the most personal partof you, which is you, the worst
condition?
How is that safe for theoutside?
Exactly, it's a false smokeshow Exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
If there's not a place to hang your coat in the
restroom, then what are yousupposed to do?
Put it on the floor.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Correct.
Oh, that doesn't that doesn'tbode well.
They'll take whatever's inthere into the dining room.
That's no good.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right.
So so that's that's how I cameup in the business, sure.
And then.
So, after after I had my kids,I was home freelancing and our
local alternative publicationdid a reader survey.
You know, what do our readerslike to do?
They do this and they do this.
This is where they go, and thenumber one hobby that was listed
in that reader survey 30something years ago was cooking
(04:50):
for fun.
And I thought, oh well, youknow, if that's what your
readers like to do, you shouldhave a column on that and I
should write it Right, because Iwas a freelancer by that time.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So you did the research, you came up with this
and then this idea kind ofevolved.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And the editor called me and, of course, called at
the time and said oh, that's agreat idea, Love it, but our
restaurant critic just quit.
Can you do that?
It's like?
Of course, because you're afreelancer.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
You do everything.
You were trying to do somethingbecause you couldn't do that
Right, and now that came up.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So that's how I started doing restaurant reviews
, you know, and so I did thatfor a while and more and more,
and then a couple more kids camealong, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So then eventually the local newspaper called and
said hey, you still into foodwriting?
You know, it's like well sure?
So I started on at theIndianapolis Star as the food
writer.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
That's big.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
That's big.
I mean, indianapolis is not asmall town, folks.
We're not talking about alittle small town, USA.
This is a big city.
That's right.
So to have that title is a bigthing and a lot of weight on
your shoulders too, because youhave to make the proper thing,
because you don't want to pissoff a lot of fans either.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Right, you don't want to piss them off what you do
right and you want them tobelieve you.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So if you're going, if you have a restaurant you're
gonna walk into and there's ahuge fan base and a lot of that
fan base has been going therefor 15 years and you rate
something a little bit off andthey're gonna be mad at you.
Maybe you're not judge you.
Is that that's a pressure you?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
have, and they do get mad that's my next question.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes, what comes next?
Oh well, I hate mail.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I've had people who say I'm gonna, I'm going to get
you fired, you know, because youcritiqued my restaurant.
And eventually, just to behonest, I did get fired from the
Star because I had a website,you know.
So I had my own website.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And so they didn't care for that and it's like,
okay, I get it, and this issocial media time.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
We're starting to be.
Oh, they wanted digital first.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Was this when it was just kicking into that social
media flux?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yes, it was just, and people really didn't know how
to navigate.
I said you know, we should dothis website that way.
I have so much more informationthan it could possibly fit in
the paper and also.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
This was way back when they were afraid, almost
like when Canon didn't want togo to digital cameras.
So they were afraid that thenewspaper has to be read and
physical.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, the newspaper has to be read and physical,
yeah, and you had a website andthey didn't want that, and so I
said, well, that's all right,I'm not going to take it down.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
That's the devil's work, right.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
But I'm not going to take it down.
And so we parted ways and thatwas all right, because of course
it's been very challengingtimes in newspapers.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, of course.
Advertisement sh Of course.
So what I'm gathering here inthis conversation is you're
happy you stuck with that.
That's something that made youcarry on.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Absolutely so.
Then I started doing otherthings.
I had a radio program here onour public radio station for
several years, so it was thissort of thing where you go out
and interview people.
I love talking to people inkitchens and getting the sounds
of what's going on.
So I've gone in restaurantkitchens and farm fields and
that sort of thing, justrecording just your basic, these
(07:49):
kind of microphones and that'sa lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So what it is that you've seen in 30 years?
You've seen the restaurantindustry change.
You've seen the styles of foodchange, the styles of even the
styles of serving and the stylesof tablecloths, going from
white tablecloth to wood top.
Exactly, you've seen the wholething.
What do you see happening now?
Is anything reverting back?
Do you think fine dining is onthe uprise, slowly coming back?
(08:14):
I believe it is.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I think it is.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think that my personal opinion is and it's
good to talk to you about this,because you're not the person.
I'm the person trying to figureit out, so I can continue on
and keep the crowd happy.
You're the one reporting to thecrowd, so therefore you're in
the crowd, right?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Well, you try to be, You're in the crowd right.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You have to be through their mindset so you can
give them the right descriptionback of what it is they're
trying to get.
Exactly so.
When you're looking at thingslike the fine dining scene, to
me, I feel truly and I've saidit before that people are, they
want to be catered to, they wantto be treated right.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
They want to be served.
Well, everybody likes to betreated nicely, don't they?
Of course, you know you want tomake it special.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
So that one craze that went through the mid-early
2000s when you know, I believeit was Grant Ackett's, which is
probably influential to yourarea because he is more great,
great, great, great chef, buthe's one of the first guys with
Alinea who really took thetablecloths off the table and
all that, and then that became acraze.
He was doing it for differentreasons at the time, but really
(09:18):
for bills and stuff.
But when he did that itinstantly made it acceptable for
everybody, for everybody.
But everybody couldn't live upbecause what everyone didn't
realize is that Grant was stillbringing the levels of service
to them.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Everyone else took them away and didn't have that
level.
So now you're getting a bowl ofquinoa with your little shared
duck breast and it's coming on awooden table and you'll have to
call your number, becausethat's the new thing.
Well, people got used to that,right, am I wrong?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
No, you're exactly right and that's what happened.
So, chefs like Grant, they tookthose away, but didn't diminish
the service and the quality ofthe food.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So they made it a trend Right as part of the decor
, but so many other places.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Well then, okay, if we don't care about tablecloth,
maybe we don't care about whichside we serve from, if we don't
care about that.
Maybe we don't care abouthaving nice silverware.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Oh, no linens means no crummer.
Take that step of service outof there, right.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And no linens mean no linen service that you have to
pay.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Sure Right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
So I can see why people do that, saving thousands
.
Thousands.
And I remember when our chefshere I remember talking to one
of our chefs perennially on theJames Beardsley finalist list
here and he said I'm taking awaymy white tablecloths, I'm just
taking it away.
And of course it changes things.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
But then at the time the chef told me the chef you're
talking about deserves that, asGrant did, he took away the
tablecloths.
I know who you're talking about.
That, as grant did, he tookaway the table clause.
I know who you're talking about.
I don't know if you want tomention names or not, but I will
well, I'm talking about davidtalent from bloomington
restaurant talent and he was.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
He was on the long list before they, before they
called okay.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Well, there's another chef in town doing the same
thing, but well deserving, okay,a current modern chef.
So so I wouldn't have namedthat person because I don't know
that person.
However, it does happen it does.
And it does happen.
When it happens right, it'sokay.
But I'm talking about the finedining.
Coming back to the Americanstandard of cooking, it never
really went away in Europe.
(11:13):
You know that.
So I go to Europe often and yougo to a nice restaurant.
It's been the same for 100years.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
It's never changed and that's okay, that it's been
the same for 100 years.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It's never changed and that's okay, that's right,
that's okay, it's beautiful.
Because when you're there iswhen you realize you miss it.
You're like, wow, I miss this.
They really do crumb and theyreally do take their time.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
It is so nice to have that level of experience.
I remember when I was reviewingit had been a terrible day and
I probably had a headache and wewalked into this old school
kind of restaurant.
It's like, sit down, ladies,we'll take care of everything.
And I was like how nice thatsomeone's going to take care of
everything.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Sure, but you don't get that so often when they're
mechanically taking, placing onthe side and taking from the
other, working the table as theyshould, and clockwork when
they're putting their food downin front of you because they
know your placements on thetable, numbers, their seatings.
This is all stuff that takestime and that's what makes it
right, instead of walking to thetable, who?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
had the roast beef who had the perch.
Auctioning off the dishes.
Correct, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Exactly.
Terminology is correct, so youknow.
That's why I like talking toyou.
This is a fun time for mebecause it's not often I get to
talk to the person critiquing.
We're typically critiquingourselves to make sure we're
meeting the standard, but we'renot talking to the critiquer.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
We avoid them and we typically we typically try to
avoid interaction.
Although I've done this for solong, I can't be.
I'm not anonymous anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And the good news is I'm not in your locality, so
it's okay.
So I can talk to you all day.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
And I don't review these days.
You know, since I left the Star, you know I've had the podcast
on WFYI, our local public radiostation.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So you have a podcast as well.
I did for several years.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I couldn't get it into the lineup.
I wanted it to be at a certaintime.
I wanted it to come afterSplendid Table on there, you
know.
But I could never get the goodtime slot that I wanted, but
I've talked to so many peoplefor that.
Right now, I work for anorganization called Culinary
Crossroads and we are trying topromote the culinary community
around the state, throughout thewhole state, not just
(13:18):
Indianapolis, and so we've donea variety of chef dinners,
collaborative chef dinners.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Is there any way you can say how people can look into
that?
Is that something people canlook at and follow you, or
something?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, they can look at culinarycrossroadsorg.
We have a newsletter that I puttogether that goes out every
other week, so they cancertainly sign up for that.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And that's an email format.
Absolutely, that's all goodinformation.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So we're really trying to raise the awareness
and especially after COVID youknow that was so hard on the
culinary community All sorts ofgroups, it was devastating for
some.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Most it was devastating for most, yes, and a
really good thing for some.
For me, it was very good for me.
It grew me up very fast,meaning mature.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It made me become a chef of reason.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Not so much getting off on the fact that I had great
loyal customers who happened tolove my palate and my food.
It made me realize that thiscan go away at any point in time
.
So it made me critique a lot ofthings I was doing.
It made me see a lot of thethings that was wasted or taken
for granted Right, so there werepositives.
(14:24):
There was positive.
The biggest positive, though,is if you took care of your
business before COVID happened,you definitely benefited, and I
will say that the government didhelp those who were in
situations where they putthemselves in a good spot.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
If you weren't, I feel bad for you.
I was in a good spot.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
It helped me move forward in advance in my life
and I took full advantage ofthat Well in 2020, I had been
working with the city of Fishershere in Indiana, just right up
the road here, and we werecreating a restaurant
accelerator.
So we were creating a spot thathad three like restaurants
stands.
You might call it like quickservice and we were going to
(15:04):
test out concepts right.
So it was a way for a youngchef to get in Almost like a
pop-up situation.
Yes, and so we had been workingon that for several years.
We opened in February of 2020.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
We had six good weeks and I had in the restaurant
accelerator a little what I callthe culinary performance space
and I was envisioning intimatechef dinners.
I had it set up just how Iwanted it so the chef could cook
right in front of you, seatingall around, you know, very small
10, 12, 14 people.
And we had six weeks of dinnersand classes and Valentine's Day
(15:41):
, and it was, oh, it was great.
And then COVID and no onewanted intimate dinners and
classes and Valentine's Day, andit was, oh, it was great.
And then COVID and no onewanted intimate dinners anymore.
So that space eventually becamemore of a pop-up, you know, and
so my intimate chef dinnerspace didn't really work out,
but we did continue.
You know, the restaurantaccelerator did open, it stayed.
We had one of our chefs in oneof the stands who stayed there
(16:04):
throughout all of the shutdowns,you know, just for carryout,
just for carryout.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
They did good.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
They did good, they managed and he's still in
business Good and grew into adifferent location.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Luckily for me, in my downtown location I had
carryout only obviously, and Iwould have a line of
reservations of cars down thestreet, so it worked out well
for me, just because I keptstaying at it, and at it, and at
it.
What do you think of the newguard of cooks and chefs coming
into the?
Do you see anything that makesyou a little concerned or you
(16:39):
almost shake your head like thisisn't how it used to be, or of
course that's always going to beright.
But to me it's really hard tohit that because I know of
course I'm very modern and I'mvery modernly thinking.
So I do realize that thingschange.
I get it, I'm part of the changeright I've been part of that
change, so a lot of the oldguard that I used to work with
or work under can't understandwhat I'm doing now, because it's
so modern in a sense, yeah, butstill um, I'm still got the
(17:02):
brakes on.
Compared to what I see.
What I see, though, it's a lotof lax, it's a lot of nonchalant
.
No hurry, no haste.
Walking in with your chef pantsthat aren't truly chef pants,
your apron that's really leatherand probably holds more damn
dirt than these things that are.
The beards and the hats thatare on backwards, and the ball
(17:23):
caps Right, you know, they'rejust a non-this, non-this, right
, and I don't know why it went.
Anti-the-role, like the ACF,for instance, is a great
standard.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's a great standard .
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And people don't want to pay attention to it right
now, but that's.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I do think that we are going to see a swing back
toward more acceptance of finedining and I do think the
tablecloths are coming back.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I do too, and I think the brigade system is coming
back.
It has to.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yes, I think so, because the more casual sort of
service it's okay.
It's okay, I think, if theexpectations are casual, you
know.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Well, I think you're absolutely right and I also
think that this is a decade-longthing.
This whole relaxed system cameout about a decade ago, right,
and that has its time.
It's running out, and I think,the people who are doing it.
If you're going to have acasual situation, you have to
hire casual staff you have tohire cat staff that doesn't
(18:24):
really hold themselves up to thestandard of moving forward in
the culinary world you know,it's probably not their goal and
it's not their goal.
so that's what you have to do,because people who are serious
like us, and they're going to goto a serious place and they're
going to give that time to them.
So I think that 10 year of thatis wearing down and those chefs
who started that are gettingtired and it's going to start
(18:44):
fading out.
So I think, if you want to callit I don't want to call it a
millennial thing because it'snot, but I guess if you're going
to compare it to something,it'd be that type of description
, right.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
It might be.
It might be that could work foryou as a way to describe it One
of the chefs locally who closedhis fine dining restaurant and
within the year had opened apizza joint.
You know because he saw whatwas happening.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
No more white tablecloths.
I'm going to do pizza, and hesaid, but it's going to come
back Of course it is.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
The young chefs will get tired.
They'll get tired of thatcasual.
It's a, it's a trend, likeeverything else, and I think
that once um, like 11, madisonpark, made out these statements
that fine dining's dead, we'reclosing down I think everybody
just jumped on that, just likethey did when they said fine
dining's amazing, we're going towin michelin stars, and they
all wanted to do that.
So I think what happened is Ithink a lot of these people jump
too soon.
I think they jump too soon andI think that if they would have
(19:42):
just stuck it through, they'llsee I could be wrong.
I hope not.
Luckily for me, I have one finedining and I have one more
casual and not just one type ofpeople want both.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I think people want both types for different
occasions.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And I am finding that to be the case.
So the one I have that's morefine dining is, I mean, sorry,
more casual.
It's only casual because it'smore of a bar scene martini wine
bar with a beautiful menu.
That will always remain thatway, but this has been a
pleasure.
It's really good to talk to youabout this.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's great.
I love talking about dining andfood trends and you know I do a
lot with recipe development aswell, so food trends, you know,
are very interesting to me too,and that's always the thing, so
I love to see what chefs aredoing.
You know what restaurants indifferent parts of the country
are doing different parts of theworld, Because, of course,
(20:37):
everything has become moreglobal, and so you might find
inspiration in a differentcountry I do travel a lot to get
that inspiration.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I travel to Italy.
I'm an Italian chef, but mywork is to learn the traditions
of each region and each kingdom,as Italy was.
Before they were countries, whythey came from where they were,
understanding the rules of them, from the beginnings, the
origins.
But now I'm a multi-regionalinfusion, I infuse multi-regions
and I also put my modern twiston them, not so much molecularly
(21:08):
but a touch of it, but a littlebit more of just a really nice
fine style of eating it.
So it is a fine dining, just areally nice fine style of eating
it.
So it is a fine dining, verymodern Italian food based off
the origins and traditions ofthe rules of it.
So it's fun.
But I don't get thatinspiration unless I go anywhere
else.
If I don't go to Vita here inIndianapolis to see how he's
(21:28):
dealing with some gnocchi dishwith an American twist, how am I
going to infuse it any otherway than what I know of how it
comes from Naples, right,exactly.
So I need to get thatinspiration from everywhere.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I love regional cooking and I focus on Midwest
and the Great Lakes area, so Ilike to focus on that and home
cooking, you know, is the kindof recipes that I do.
I'm on our local Indy Now showevery week, with one week it's
restaurant news, the next weekit's a quick little dish that
you can make at home.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That's great, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So it is fun to explore those things that make
things home cooking.
You know that make things tastelike home, Whether it tastes
like home if your home is inItaly, or if it tastes like home
and your home is here in theMidwest.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Absolutely, and the Midwest has got so much to offer
.
There's so much indigenousproduct that comes from here.
You guys probably yourvegetable scene and gardening
scene.
I can just imagine how amazingit is.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Oh, you come back in July and have the tomatoes and
the sweet corn.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Come on the sweet corn.
Yes, right off the cob, cold,exactly.
This has been amazing.
Why don't you tell us one moretime a couple of avenues?
People can look for you andfollow you, especially in this
area and outside the area,because I always tell people if
you're going to come to a regionor watch us if we're traveling.
I try and get people to comehere and come here comfortably
(22:50):
you know and know where to look.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I would love for you to leave.
I'm online at Facebook,instagram, x Blue Sky.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
What can they find you under?
What's the name?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Jolene Ketzenberger.
Jolene Ketzenberger depends onhow much space, I've got.
Jolene Ketzenberger, you canlook up Culinary Crossroads, and
that's our organization thatpromotes the culinary community
around the state, and so we'reon Facebook and Instagram as
well.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
So they can find me Facebook, instagram, all sorts
of places, and I think I thinkthey should, and I'm going to,
because I think you have a lotmore resources than what we're
talking about here.
We're talking about bloggingand food writing over the
restaurant scene.
That's pretty typical, as weall know, but I have a feeling
you have your hands in all kindsof stuff.
You're in the farming game.
You know where to get theproteins.
I'm sure you're dabbling in thepork game.
(23:39):
You know where to get all thevegetables.
You've already mentioned someof that stuff, so it's important
to follow her.
I'm going to follow you becauseI want to know that I will be
back in the area for sure.
It's guaranteed we will be backin.
We will be back a couple timesin between then, so maybe I can
meet you for dinner.
We can chop it up that would beamazing.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Absolutely, wouldn't that be fun?
Absolutely, and we'll check outthe restroom too.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, right, yep, and we'll just have a good time.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Just see how tidy that is.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
This has been an honor, thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
Listen up here.
The restaurant industry isgrueling and unpredictable, just
like this show.
From the front of the house tothe back of the house and all in
between.
We will turn up the heat, youturn up the volume.
I'm Chef Antonio Caruana.
Welcome to the Tell All Podcastat Burnt Hands for a Record.
All right, let's introduce you,because your name is written
(00:23):
down on multiple publications.
For how many years?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Oh my goodness, Do we have to do that?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yes, we have to do it .
Come on, I'm no spring chickeneither.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So over 30 years I've been writing about Indianapolis
, okay.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, I've been cooking for 30 years.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Okay, there we go.
We're on the same page, okay.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So tell us about yourself a little bit, because I
want everyone out there to knowwhen you're, when you're in
Indianapolis, you're here.
They know who you are, right,anyone who's a foodie.
Right, people who go outlooking for food.
So everyone who's going to bewatching who's not from here.
Right, you bring something thatis in every city, right you?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
you are the one here, right, there's people, there's
everywhere.
That's right.
You go somewhere else, you findsomebody like me to talk to,
right.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Sure, so go ahead, tell us about yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Well, so I've been writing about food and dining
cooking here in central Indianafor a long time over 30 years.
I work for our general interestmagazine, indianapolis Monthly.
A long time ago.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
But that was a big publication though, because this
was before social media.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Before social media.
That's what they like to saythe original influencers.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Right, and then we were talking about a time when,
a time that I miss, a time thatI talk about as a culinary.
It's really hard for me toaccept so much that's going on
social media.
Now it has its place here weare on it, of course.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Here we are on it.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So I've chose, and we've chose to spread our word
using it, and we've chose tospread our word using it, but we
didn't want to overcrowd it.
We wanted to do somethingdifferent, almost as if we're
doing a virtual article.
Right, right, right, becauseeverybody can food blog, anybody
can do this, and that takesaway from you, correct?
Speaker 2 (01:54):
It kind of does.
It did with all the bloggingand stuff that came on.
It opened up the business,right, right.
But I came in when there wasstill restaurant critics, you
know, and that was what they did.
And they, you know, they wentto some place several times,
multiple times.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I like her already, I like you already.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
We're talking, you know and so I came up kind of
old school with the.
You know, the restaurant criticwas the editor of the magazine
and if you got to go along on arestaurant review, that was
awesome because of course theypicked up the tab and you got to
go to nice places.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
And they had a name.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
And they had a name and she was probably trying to
hide menus in her purse at thetime because nothing was online.
And so that's when I started.
And so the idea was that if youdid a restaurant review, you
didn't want them to know thatyou were there.
You made a reservation insomebody else's name.
You went three or four times,you ordered, you took people
(02:47):
with you so that you could haveall sorts of different foods.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So you went three or four times.
So that's a big eye opener fora lot of people.
A lot of people think you wentone time.
That was it.
They could have had a bad andit's a hard way to judge that
way right it is.
It's not fair.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Huh, it could have had a bad evening, but you want
to see what they're like for theregular person.
So you don't want to say, oh hi, I'm the editor of whatever you
know, get me in.
No, you want to kind of slip in.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
See what it's like for a normal day, and see what
it's like for a normal day.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Look around, you know .
Is it dusty?
Are the restrooms clean?
And you're looking at all of it.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Can you say that again for the people in the back
?
People don't realize that inthe restaurant world and I'm so
hard on my staff about thatparticular thing, you have to be
hard on yourself If there's achip on the wall of paint.
Why is it still there?
Why is?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
it still there?
Why are the things scuffed up?
Why is the wall scuffed?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Why is there dust on this thing?
Why is my charger plate notright?
Why is this all?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
happening.
I remember reading a story of aNew York Times restaurant
critic who would go into therestroom and set a paper clip on
the edge of the sink and thenhe would go back in later and
see if that paper clip had beenswooped away Sure.
And if it had, then he knewsomebody was checking the
restrooms and and you know, andso the restrooms are a great
(03:58):
example.
Sure, they are a great example.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
If you're in a dining room to be entertained and you
want to go in the bathroom andyou're going to take care of
your personal business, why isthe area where you're taking
care of the most personal partof you, which is you, the worst
condition?
How is that safe for theoutside?
Exactly, it's a false smokeshow Exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
If there's not a place to hang your coat in the
restroom, then what are yousupposed to do?
Put it on the floor.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Correct.
Oh, that doesn't that doesn'tbode well.
They'll take whatever's inthere into the dining room.
That's no good.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Right.
So so that's that's how I cameup in the business, sure.
And then.
So, after after I had my kids,I was home freelancing and our
local alternative publicationdid a reader survey.
You know, what do our readerslike to do?
They do this and they do this.
This is where they go, and thenumber one hobby that was listed
in that reader survey 30something years ago was cooking
(04:50):
for fun.
And I thought, oh well, youknow, if that's what your
readers like to do, you shouldhave a column on that and I
should write it Right, because Iwas a freelancer by that time.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
So you did the research, you came up with this
and then this idea kind ofevolved.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And the editor called me and, of course, called at
the time and said oh, that's agreat idea, Love it, but our
restaurant critic just quit.
Can you do that?
It's like?
Of course, because you're afreelancer.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
You do everything.
You were trying to do somethingbecause you couldn't do that
Right, and now that came up.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So that's how I started doing restaurant reviews
, you know, and so I did thatfor a while and more and more,
and then a couple more kids camealong, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
So then eventually the local newspaper called and
said hey, you still into foodwriting?
You know, it's like well sure?
So I started on at theIndianapolis Star as the food
writer.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
That's big.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
That's big.
I mean, indianapolis is not asmall town, folks.
We're not talking about alittle small town, USA.
This is a big city.
That's right.
So to have that title is a bigthing and a lot of weight on
your shoulders too, because youhave to make the proper thing,
because you don't want to pissoff a lot of fans either.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Right, you don't want to piss them off what you do
right and you want them tobelieve you.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
So if you're going, if you have a restaurant you're
gonna walk into and there's ahuge fan base and a lot of that
fan base has been going therefor 15 years and you rate
something a little bit off andthey're gonna be mad at you.
Maybe you're not judge you.
Is that that's a pressure you?
Speaker 2 (06:15):
have, and they do get mad that's my next question.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yes, what comes next?
Oh well, I hate mail.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I've had people who say I'm gonna, I'm going to get
you fired, you know, because youcritiqued my restaurant.
And eventually, just to behonest, I did get fired from the
Star because I had a website,you know.
So I had my own website.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
And so they didn't care for that and it's like,
okay, I get it, and this issocial media time.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
We're starting to be.
Oh, they wanted digital first.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Was this when it was just kicking into that social
media flux?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yes, it was just, and people really didn't know how
to navigate.
I said you know, we should dothis website that way.
I have so much more informationthan it could possibly fit in
the paper and also.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
This was way back when they were afraid, almost
like when Canon didn't want togo to digital cameras.
So they were afraid that thenewspaper has to be read and
physical.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, the newspaper has to be read and physical,
yeah, and you had a website andthey didn't want that, and so I
said, well, that's all right,I'm not going to take it down.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
That's the devil's work, right.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
But I'm not going to take it down.
And so we parted ways and thatwas all right, because of course
it's been very challengingtimes in newspapers.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, of course.
Advertisement sh Of course.
So what I'm gathering here inthis conversation is you're
happy you stuck with that.
That's something that made youcarry on.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Absolutely so.
Then I started doing otherthings.
I had a radio program here onour public radio station for
several years, so it was thissort of thing where you go out
and interview people.
I love talking to people inkitchens and getting the sounds
of what's going on.
So I've gone in restaurantkitchens and farm fields and
that sort of thing, justrecording just your basic, these
(07:49):
kind of microphones and that'sa lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So what it is that you've seen in 30 years?
You've seen the restaurantindustry change.
You've seen the styles of foodchange, the styles of even the
styles of serving and the stylesof tablecloths, going from
white tablecloth to wood top.
Exactly, you've seen the wholething.
What do you see happening now?
Is anything reverting back?
Do you think fine dining is onthe uprise, slowly coming back?
(08:14):
I believe it is.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
I think it is.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think that my personal opinion is and it's
good to talk to you about this,because you're not the person.
I'm the person trying to figureit out, so I can continue on
and keep the crowd happy.
You're the one reporting to thecrowd, so therefore you're in
the crowd, right?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Well, you try to be, You're in the crowd right.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
You have to be through their mindset so you can
give them the right descriptionback of what it is they're
trying to get.
Exactly so.
When you're looking at thingslike the fine dining scene, to
me, I feel truly and I've saidit before that people are, they
want to be catered to, they wantto be treated right.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
They want to be served.
Well, everybody likes to betreated nicely, don't they?
Of course, you know you want tomake it special.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
So that one craze that went through the mid-early
2000s when you know, I believeit was Grant Ackett's, which is
probably influential to yourarea because he is more great,
great, great, great chef, buthe's one of the first guys with
Alinea who really took thetablecloths off the table and
all that, and then that became acraze.
He was doing it for differentreasons at the time, but really
(09:18):
for bills and stuff.
But when he did that itinstantly made it acceptable for
everybody, for everybody.
But everybody couldn't live upbecause what everyone didn't
realize is that Grant was stillbringing the levels of service
to them.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Everyone else took them away and didn't have that
level.
So now you're getting a bowl ofquinoa with your little shared
duck breast and it's coming on awooden table and you'll have to
call your number, becausethat's the new thing.
Well, people got used to that,right, am I wrong?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
No, you're exactly right and that's what happened.
So, chefs like Grant, they tookthose away, but didn't diminish
the service and the quality ofthe food.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
So they made it a trend Right as part of the decor
, but so many other places.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Well then, okay, if we don't care about tablecloth,
maybe we don't care about whichside we serve from, if we don't
care about that.
Maybe we don't care abouthaving nice silverware.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Oh, no linens means no crummer.
Take that step of service outof there, right.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
And no linens mean no linen service that you have to
pay.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Sure Right, right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
So I can see why people do that, saving thousands
.
Thousands.
And I remember when our chefshere I remember talking to one
of our chefs perennially on theJames Beardsley finalist list
here and he said I'm taking awaymy white tablecloths, I'm just
taking it away.
And of course it changes things.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
But then at the time the chef told me the chef you're
talking about deserves that, asGrant did, he took away the
tablecloths.
I know who you're talking about.
That, as grant did, he tookaway the table clause.
I know who you're talking about.
I don't know if you want tomention names or not, but I will
well, I'm talking about davidtalent from bloomington
restaurant talent and he was.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
He was on the long list before they, before they
called okay.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Well, there's another chef in town doing the same
thing, but well deserving, okay,a current modern chef.
So so I wouldn't have namedthat person because I don't know
that person.
However, it does happen it does.
And it does happen.
When it happens right, it'sokay.
But I'm talking about the finedining.
Coming back to the Americanstandard of cooking, it never
really went away in Europe.
(11:13):
You know that.
So I go to Europe often and yougo to a nice restaurant.
It's been the same for 100years.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
It's never changed and that's okay, that it's been
the same for 100 years.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
It's never changed and that's okay, that's right,
that's okay, it's beautiful.
Because when you're there iswhen you realize you miss it.
You're like, wow, I miss this.
They really do crumb and theyreally do take their time.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
It is so nice to have that level of experience.
I remember when I was reviewingit had been a terrible day and
I probably had a headache and wewalked into this old school
kind of restaurant.
It's like, sit down, ladies,we'll take care of everything.
And I was like how nice thatsomeone's going to take care of
everything.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Sure, but you don't get that so often when they're
mechanically taking, placing onthe side and taking from the
other, working the table as theyshould, and clockwork when
they're putting their food downin front of you because they
know your placements on thetable, numbers, their seatings.
This is all stuff that takestime and that's what makes it
right, instead of walking to thetable, who?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
had the roast beef who had the perch.
Auctioning off the dishes.
Correct, that's right.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Exactly.
Terminology is correct, so youknow.
That's why I like talking toyou.
This is a fun time for mebecause it's not often I get to
talk to the person critiquing.
We're typically critiquingourselves to make sure we're
meeting the standard, but we'renot talking to the critiquer.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
We avoid them and we typically we typically try to
avoid interaction.
Although I've done this for solong, I can't be.
I'm not anonymous anymore.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
And the good news is I'm not in your locality, so
it's okay.
So I can talk to you all day.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
And I don't review these days.
You know, since I left the Star, you know I've had the podcast
on WFYI, our local public radiostation.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So you have a podcast as well.
I did for several years.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I couldn't get it into the lineup.
I wanted it to be at a certaintime.
I wanted it to come afterSplendid Table on there, you
know.
But I could never get the goodtime slot that I wanted, but
I've talked to so many peoplefor that.
Right now, I work for anorganization called Culinary
Crossroads and we are trying topromote the culinary community
around the state, throughout thewhole state, not just
(13:18):
Indianapolis, and so we've donea variety of chef dinners,
collaborative chef dinners.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Is there any way you can say how people can look into
that?
Is that something people canlook at and follow you, or
something?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, they can look at culinarycrossroadsorg.
We have a newsletter that I puttogether that goes out every
other week, so they cancertainly sign up for that.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
And that's an email format.
Absolutely, that's all goodinformation.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So we're really trying to raise the awareness
and especially after COVID youknow that was so hard on the
culinary community All sorts ofgroups, it was devastating for
some.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Most it was devastating for most, yes, and a
really good thing for some.
For me, it was very good for me.
It grew me up very fast,meaning mature.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
It made me become a chef of reason.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Not so much getting off on the fact that I had great
loyal customers who happened tolove my palate and my food.
It made me realize that thiscan go away at any point in time
.
So it made me critique a lot ofthings I was doing.
It made me see a lot of thethings that was wasted or taken
for granted Right, so there werepositives.
(14:24):
There was positive.
The biggest positive, though,is if you took care of your
business before COVID happened,you definitely benefited, and I
will say that the government didhelp those who were in
situations where they putthemselves in a good spot.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
If you weren't, I feel bad for you.
I was in a good spot.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
It helped me move forward in advance in my life
and I took full advantage ofthat Well in 2020, I had been
working with the city of Fishershere in Indiana, just right up
the road here, and we werecreating a restaurant
accelerator.
So we were creating a spot thathad three like restaurants
stands.
You might call it like quickservice and we were going to
(15:04):
test out concepts right.
So it was a way for a youngchef to get in Almost like a
pop-up situation.
Yes, and so we had been workingon that for several years.
We opened in February of 2020.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
We had six good weeks and I had in the restaurant
accelerator a little what I callthe culinary performance space
and I was envisioning intimatechef dinners.
I had it set up just how Iwanted it so the chef could cook
right in front of you, seatingall around, you know, very small
10, 12, 14 people.
And we had six weeks of dinnersand classes and Valentine's Day
(15:41):
, and it was, oh, it was great.
And then COVID and no onewanted intimate dinners and
classes and Valentine's Day, andit was, oh, it was great.
And then COVID and no onewanted intimate dinners anymore.
So that space eventually becamemore of a pop-up, you know, and
so my intimate chef dinnerspace didn't really work out,
but we did continue.
You know, the restaurantaccelerator did open, it stayed.
We had one of our chefs in oneof the stands who stayed there
(16:04):
throughout all of the shutdowns,you know, just for carryout,
just for carryout.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
They did good.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
They did good, they managed and he's still in
business Good and grew into adifferent location.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Luckily for me, in my downtown location I had
carryout only obviously, and Iwould have a line of
reservations of cars down thestreet, so it worked out well
for me, just because I keptstaying at it, and at it, and at
it.
What do you think of the newguard of cooks and chefs coming
into the?
Do you see anything that makesyou a little concerned or you
(16:39):
almost shake your head like thisisn't how it used to be, or of
course that's always going to beright.
But to me it's really hard tohit that because I know of
course I'm very modern and I'mvery modernly thinking.
So I do realize that thingschange.
I get it, I'm part of the changeright I've been part of that
change, so a lot of the oldguard that I used to work with
or work under can't understandwhat I'm doing now, because it's
so modern in a sense, yeah, butstill um, I'm still got the
(17:02):
brakes on.
Compared to what I see.
What I see, though, it's a lotof lax, it's a lot of nonchalant
.
No hurry, no haste.
Walking in with your chef pantsthat aren't truly chef pants,
your apron that's really leatherand probably holds more damn
dirt than these things that are.
The beards and the hats thatare on backwards, and the ball
(17:23):
caps Right, you know, they'rejust a non-this, non-this, right
, and I don't know why it went.
Anti-the-role, like the ACF,for instance, is a great
standard.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's a great standard .
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And people don't want to pay attention to it right
now, but that's.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
I do think that we are going to see a swing back
toward more acceptance of finedining and I do think the
tablecloths are coming back.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
I do too, and I think the brigade system is coming
back.
It has to.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yes, I think so, because the more casual sort of
service it's okay.
It's okay, I think, if theexpectations are casual, you
know.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Well, I think you're absolutely right and I also
think that this is a decade-longthing.
This whole relaxed system cameout about a decade ago, right,
and that has its time.
It's running out, and I think,the people who are doing it.
If you're going to have acasual situation, you have to
hire casual staff you have tohire cat staff that doesn't
(18:24):
really hold themselves up to thestandard of moving forward in
the culinary world you know,it's probably not their goal and
it's not their goal.
so that's what you have to do,because people who are serious
like us, and they're going to goto a serious place and they're
going to give that time to them.
So I think that 10 year of thatis wearing down and those chefs
who started that are gettingtired and it's going to start
(18:44):
fading out.
So I think, if you want to callit I don't want to call it a
millennial thing because it'snot, but I guess if you're going
to compare it to something,it'd be that type of description
, right.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
It might be.
It might be that could work foryou as a way to describe it One
of the chefs locally who closedhis fine dining restaurant and
within the year had opened apizza joint.
You know because he saw whatwas happening.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
No more white tablecloths.
I'm going to do pizza, and hesaid, but it's going to come
back Of course it is.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
The young chefs will get tired.
They'll get tired of thatcasual.
It's a, it's a trend, likeeverything else, and I think
that once um, like 11, madisonpark, made out these statements
that fine dining's dead, we'reclosing down I think everybody
just jumped on that, just likethey did when they said fine
dining's amazing, we're going towin michelin stars, and they
all wanted to do that.
So I think what happened is Ithink a lot of these people jump
too soon.
I think they jump too soon andI think that if they would have
(19:42):
just stuck it through, they'llsee I could be wrong.
I hope not.
Luckily for me, I have one finedining and I have one more
casual and not just one type ofpeople want both.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I think people want both types for different
occasions.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And I am finding that to be the case.
So the one I have that's morefine dining is, I mean, sorry,
more casual.
It's only casual because it'smore of a bar scene martini wine
bar with a beautiful menu.
That will always remain thatway, but this has been a
pleasure.
It's really good to talk to youabout this.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It's great.
I love talking about dining andfood trends and you know I do a
lot with recipe development aswell, so food trends, you know,
are very interesting to me too,and that's always the thing, so
I love to see what chefs aredoing.
You know what restaurants indifferent parts of the country
are doing different parts of theworld, Because, of course,
(20:37):
everything has become moreglobal, and so you might find
inspiration in a differentcountry I do travel a lot to get
that inspiration.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I travel to Italy.
I'm an Italian chef, but mywork is to learn the traditions
of each region and each kingdom,as Italy was.
Before they were countries, whythey came from where they were,
understanding the rules of them, from the beginnings, the
origins.
But now I'm a multi-regionalinfusion, I infuse multi-regions
and I also put my modern twiston them, not so much molecularly
(21:08):
but a touch of it, but a littlebit more of just a really nice
fine style of eating it.
So it is a fine dining, just areally nice fine style of eating
it.
So it is a fine dining, verymodern Italian food based off
the origins and traditions ofthe rules of it.
So it's fun.
But I don't get thatinspiration unless I go anywhere
else.
If I don't go to Vita here inIndianapolis to see how he's
(21:28):
dealing with some gnocchi dishwith an American twist, how am I
going to infuse it any otherway than what I know of how it
comes from Naples, right,exactly.
So I need to get thatinspiration from everywhere.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I love regional cooking and I focus on Midwest
and the Great Lakes area, so Ilike to focus on that and home
cooking, you know, is the kindof recipes that I do.
I'm on our local Indy Now showevery week, with one week it's
restaurant news, the next weekit's a quick little dish that
you can make at home.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That's great, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
So it is fun to explore those things that make
things home cooking.
You know that make things tastelike home, Whether it tastes
like home if your home is inItaly, or if it tastes like home
and your home is here in theMidwest.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Absolutely, and the Midwest has got so much to offer
.
There's so much indigenousproduct that comes from here.
You guys probably yourvegetable scene and gardening
scene.
I can just imagine how amazingit is.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Oh, you come back in July and have the tomatoes and
the sweet corn.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Come on the sweet corn.
Yes, right off the cob, cold,exactly.
This has been amazing.
Why don't you tell us one moretime a couple of avenues?
People can look for you andfollow you, especially in this
area and outside the area,because I always tell people if
you're going to come to a regionor watch us if we're traveling.
I try and get people to comehere and come here comfortably
(22:50):
you know and know where to look.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I would love for you to leave.
I'm online at Facebook,instagram, x Blue Sky.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
What can they find you under?
What's the name?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Jolene Ketzenberger.
Jolene Ketzenberger depends onhow much space, I've got.
Jolene Ketzenberger, you canlook up Culinary Crossroads, and
that's our organization thatpromotes the culinary community
around the state, and so we'reon Facebook and Instagram as
well.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
So they can find me Facebook, instagram, all sorts
of places, and I think I thinkthey should, and I'm going to,
because I think you have a lotmore resources than what we're
talking about here.
We're talking about bloggingand food writing over the
restaurant scene.
That's pretty typical, as weall know, but I have a feeling
you have your hands in all kindsof stuff.
You're in the farming game.
You know where to get theproteins.
I'm sure you're dabbling in thepork game.
(23:39):
You know where to get all thevegetables.
You've already mentioned someof that stuff, so it's important
to follow her.
I'm going to follow you becauseI want to know that I will be
back in the area for sure.
It's guaranteed we will be backin.
We will be back a couple timesin between then, so maybe I can
meet you for dinner.
We can chop it up that would beamazing.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Absolutely, wouldn't that be fun?
Absolutely, and we'll check outthe restroom too.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Yeah, right, yep, and we'll just have a good time.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Just see how tidy that is.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
This has been an honor, thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
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