August 15, 2025 • 51 mins
Marc Sauter, sommelier at Zoe's Steak and Seafood Restaurant in Virginia Beach, shares his 37-year journey in the wine industry and offers insights into wine certifications, tasting techniques, and creating exceptional dining experiences through thoughtful wine service.
• Marc has been a sommelier since age 22 and now oversees Zoe's award-winning wine program with 1,600 selections
• Wine certifications through the Court of Master Sommeliers include four progressively difficult levels
• Only 311 people worldwide have achieved Master Sommelier status in the organization's 58-year history
• The best sommeliers focus on building customer trust by respecting budgets and offering appropriate wine suggestions
• Good wine service isn't about selling one expensive bottle but creating relationships that bring customers back
• When pairing food with wine, chefs should remember that wine cannot change, but food can be adjusted
• Half bottles are excellent options for solo diners or those wanting to experience premium wines affordably
• Creating study groups with like-minded individuals is crucial for advancing through wine certification levels
• A sommelier's job is to make wine approachable and enjoyable, not intimidating
Visit Zoe's Steak and Seafood Restaurant on 19th Street in Virginia Beach, next to the convention center. Reservations are recommended and can be made up to two years in advance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
There we go, salami Huh.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Salami time Meat cheese wine and fucking pappy.
Yep, we're good.
What is better than that?
This is a good day.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
For all you guys who don't know, when we're talking
in this show a lot we talk aboutthe restaurant industry.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I got a mouthful of food you really eat with your
mouth full.
Yeah, why not?
Let's lead that way.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Sorry, mark, got some beautiful salami here in my
head right now Going for it.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
They're in my head right now, going for it With
salami, always comes wine.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Italian heritage, italian lifeline, italian blood.
Not only, though.
That goes throughout thehistory, kristen.
Why don't you say a few wordsso I can swallow this, so you
can chew?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
You truly did this whole situation so we're going
to take a moment and let ourguest introduce himself.
He's just smacking away on somestore-bought meat and cheese.
But yeah, mark, thank you forbeing on with us today.
Obviously a legend, a staple inthe culinary community here in
Hampton Roads too.
But you are going to kind oftake us on.
We're going to go through somejourneys as we talk about wine,
(01:17):
wine certifications and all thefun things.
So you introduce yourself, telleverybody your lovely.
Well, it's a long resume so Ican't even get through it, it's
extreme.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Thank you, guys.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love listening to your showand it's instrumental in one of
the greatest things in HamptonRoads going on right now for the
resume industry.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Thank you, that's good to hear.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm a guy like you.
For sure, I'm a sommelier Zoe'sSteak and Seafood Restaurant in
Virginia Beach.
I've been in the area for along time I hate to say how many
years, but like 37 years in theindustry, and I've been a
sommelier since I was 22 yearsold.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That's crazy, because no one at 22 years old is
worried about salmon typicallyNot typically Not a lot of them,
especially back then.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah Well, it's kind of crazy.
So I was at a Galleriarestaurant, if anyone remembers
that restaurant in downtownNorfolk.
And I remember I gave mybusiness cards and I had to pull
out a dictionary and pull outhow to spell sommelier and it
was before I joined theQuartermaster Sommeliers.
So it was like the very, verybeginning.
But I took over the wineprogram when I was 22 years old.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So at this point in time, you're a sommelier by word
and definition, not so much bycertification.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, to be a sommelieris like chefs.
I mean, people throw it aroundeasy and sometimes it's very,
very serious.
And so you know it'sfrustrating to hear people say,
oh yeah, I'm a chef, I've got ahot dog stand on the corner, or
I'm a sommelier and I'm you know, I have two bottles of wine on
my wine list, but you know, inthe quarterbacks sommel until
you pass the second level.
So it's a journey, a path, andyou should be able to be
respectful to that, andsometimes that respect gets lost
and we're trying to get toocaught up in that.
(02:55):
But it is a serious thing, Iknow in the world of chefs as
well.
It's almost the same balancethere and it's frustrating, sure
.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So when you compare the two, I went and I got my
level one right.
I didn't realize how severe itwas to call yourself level two
until you got it, until you goto the level one course.
You got to do the studying,Then you got to go there for two
days.
You got to go through thecourses, then you got to take
your test and hopefully you passthis test and you can study for
it all you want to.
But when you're there taking ityou realize how much stuff you
didn't study.
(03:23):
You know that you didn'trealize the spirits, the drinks,
the bourbons, all the ports,the Madeiras, things like that
Big, big world.
There's a big world and it'sjust at the very beginning.
So I can only imagine as we go.
And the reason I went and gotit is because A I love wine.
I've been dealing with wine allmy life and I absolutely love
it.
B I have over almost a half amillion dollars invested in my
wine program and I think I Ishould be at some level of
(03:46):
certification or evenrecognition.
When you're going to purvey thattype of wine on other people,
people have to trust you andknow what you're doing.
So my next goal, my next stop,would be level two, but we'll
talk about that in a few minutes, let's.
So you got Zoe's.
If people aren't watching thisaren't all from here.
So Zoe's Steakhouse in VirginiaBeach is one of the premier
steakhouses and one of thepremier restaurants in Virginia
(04:08):
Beach.
Virginia Beach is one of thepremier steakhouses and one of
the premier restaurants inVirginia Beach.
It's been there for a long time.
It's a staple of higher endfine dining and the wine program
there, as we all know, iswinning the awards.
And not only does it win theawards, it stands true to it.
And if you're going to gosomewhere to enjoy real steak,
real food, real experience witheducation, we all know that you
go to Zoe's and that's where youbring it.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And you have ownership in Zoe's.
I do, yes, so you are a ownersommelier, and you're there all
the time.
In fact, your daughter runs thebar there.
Yes, she's on board.
Yes, she's on board, right.
So, whether she runs or not,excuse me if I'm miswording, but
I know she's there.
What?
Excuse me if I'm miswording,but I know she's there.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
What are we drinking here, my man?
What do we got?
We're doing a little CabernetSauvignon from Napa Valley.
This is called Memento Mori.
It's a new project.
Memento Mori it's Latin forremember mortality, remember
you're going to die.
The owner.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So basically, smell the roses while you're drinking
this.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Enjoy.
Yeah, absolutely, Take every.
Don't take every day forgranted, but enjoy every day.
The owner, a good friend ofmine, Hayes Drumright, got
cancer at 21 years old.
He was in college, he was aswimmer and thought he was going
to die.
So he said it was the worst andbest thing that ever happened
to him.
He lived and he just thinksevery day you got to enjoy every
day, Don't let go of passion.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
And how old is he now ?
Did he make it?
He's 53.
So, from 20, whatever he waswhen he came down with the
cancer, thinking he was going todie, that's not a lot of time
to turn your life around andproduce a 100-point wine,
because that's what this is,correct, perfect scoring wine.
Perfect scoring wine right here, luce Secundo.
Not the first time Won't be thelast, but I'm glad to be
sharing it with you 100.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
100.
100.
We'll go for it.
So we get to sip and then chat.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I'm on a 100-point show, wow.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I think our assistant Nikki needs to grab a glass and
get a taste of this.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
She would highly enjoy this.
Please, guys, why don't youshare them?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Come on grab a glass.
Yeah, you need to taste this.
This is absolutely amazing.
That is beautiful.
So Napa Valley big, strong,different regions in Napa.
A lot of people recognize Napafor what it is.
I used to be a non-fan of Napabecause I grew up with old style
wines, old world wines.
My problem with Napa in thelate 90s, early 2000s into the
mid 2000s was the winemakerstyle and winemaker influence at
(06:22):
the time was that heavyAmerican oak and I just couldn't
get past it.
No matter how good the juicewas, the grape was, the press,
the maceration, any step of theway, I had a hard time getting
through it because I just couldnot get right with that American
oak.
And it seems it's pulling backoff.
They're moving to French or oldAmerican or something.
Am I wrong on that, mark?
No, no.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I think you're dead on.
So I mean, we started learningabout wine and the Europeans
would use oak, but they useneutral oak.
So it's a balance.
It's like a chef creating adish you have to have a balance
in it, all the flavors have tointertwine and work together and
it's that perfect harmony andbalance which you're trying to
achieve.
That's what 100.1 is, so it'snot too oaky, it's not too less
of oak.
And so, yeah, we in the late90s, early 2000s, we were
(07:04):
over-oaking a lot of the winesand that's a true statement, and
they weren't in balance andthey were just rough.
And now we've really learnedhow to kind of tailor that in,
draw that back and work with theharmony and the balance.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And it was that over-oaking that you're talking
about is true, but for those whodon't know what exactly the
flavor profile I'm going for, isthat a little bit of a spice
vanilla at the end of it thatalways brought out that sweet
vanilla and finish to everythingthat I just couldn't get
through.
So I don't know if it was theoak or the American oak that was
getting me, because if you getthat out of a French oak in a
Cab Franc or something like that, it's good, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Well, the American oak is the flavors of dill,
coconut and vanilla.
French oak is going to becinnamon and vanilla and black
pepper, and so when theyover-oak it, you get that
balance.
You don't want a glass full ofvanilla, you don't want a glass
full of black pepper, you wantto build it with blackberry,
black cherry, black assise andcedar malt.
So you want those flavorswrapped around.
So the oak should beintertwined and balanced.
(08:02):
We almost can't detect the oak,so it's all in there together.
If you can taste the oak.
It's too much the oak canalmost.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So it's all in there together, right, you can taste
the correct.
It's too much.
The oak can almost, if it'sdone, probably like this.
Obviously it's 100 point wineand we're not the first ones to
admit it.
I mean so much more knowledgeand skill than I gave it that
rating.
I'm just drinking and agreeingwith them, but when I sip it,
deductively it all comes down toa napa cab, without question.
But I'm not getting the.
(08:30):
I'm getting more of a.
If I were to have to saysomething, I'm getting a very,
very light smoke, more so than Iam a straightforward oak, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
The oak is there, but it's almost undetectable.
It's right you get the berriesand the fruit.
They play the.
They're winning the race.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Right.
In this case, the oak did itsjob.
Yeah, exactly, the oak did itsjob and emphasized everything
else it supported.
It didn't lead.
Yeah great, exactly Perfect.
So you have knowledge, andanyone watching who likes wine
or drinks wine or has any focuson wine, this man here has
nonstop knowledge, not onlyabout the wine, but it's amazing
(09:07):
to me how you can sit there andtalk about every you.
You know a lot of producers,you know a lot of vintages, you
know you know a lot about what'sgoing on in the wine world,
more so than what yourqualifications even would say on
paper.
Right, I think that you're whatyou have going on and what you
bring to this area is extreme,and you're you being in this
area for us, almost like yousaid, our show was doing
(09:28):
something for this area.
I think your level of wineknowledge and wine expectation
in this area is crucial for us.
It keeps me, as a guy going,looking up and doing it, so glad
to have you talking about it.
So if you were to go, I went in,got my level one, okay, went to
the Court of Masters and, likeI've already explained why.
So when I was doing it, I wasgoing online.
(09:52):
I'm looking for anything Icould to get me enhanced better,
to learn more, to get a littlebit more knowledge, any hint I
can get, as everybody does.
We all do it.
Right.
You want to have the most infoyou can.
Going into a subject, right?
Someone who's going in, goingthrough the stages, stages,
right, if you're going throughthe levels, give us a little
insight of what people canexpect.
(10:12):
Going into level one.
And then let's go into leveltwo with the, with the blind
tastings what do you recommendthere?
And then if you're going intolevel three, where now we're
getting up hard and then you'regoing up from there, which is
that's a whole notherconversation, so why the fuck is
it so hard?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Well, to be a master sommelier.
In the last 58 years or so,there's been just barely over
300 people in the world who havepassed all four levels, so it's
considered to be the hardesttest in the world to pass so 500
, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
58 years, 58 years.
John 50 years, that's the courthas been around.
Is that what you're saying?
So the court of mass has beenaround for 58 years and only in
58 years, only 300 people havebeen.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah, it's just like 311, I think right now.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
That's crazy.
So the test is level three andlevel four.
The test is offered once a year.
You have to apply for the testand when you accept to take the
test, the test wasdisadministered in Portland,
Oregon, and one of my studentsjust took his test, Simon.
I'm going to give him ashout-out and this is his fourth
time taking the test.
(11:17):
The record is 16 times takingit before passing, so it's the
last level.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
The record meaning that was the fastest one.
No, no, meaning that was howlong it took the most.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
He took 16 years, 16 tries on the last level before
he didn't give up.
Okay, finally passed Gotcha.
So yeah, simon, a good buddyand friend of mine, he's been a
student of mine for over 10years and I helped him pass
level two, level three and hesurpassed me already.
But he's hardworking a lot ofthe time to study.
But he's hardworking a lot ofthe time to study.
And he passed his first sectionof the Master Sommelier Master
(11:52):
Diploma just last month.
And there was 82 people who tookthe test.
Ten people passed that section,so the other 72 hope they
scored high enough to get aninvitation for next year.
And of those ten, simon's oneof those ten.
They've got two more sectionshe has to complete this year and
if he does he will be Master ofSommelier 312, I guess.
Wow that's insane.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That's crazy.
And if he doesn't, does he haveto start all over again, or
does that first section alwayshold?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
No, so it's a great question.
It's a very interesting andcool question.
So there's three sections totake.
There's a service exam, writtenoral exam and then blind
tasting.
If you pass the first one, thewritten and oral exam, which
Simon passed, you don't have totake that test for two more
years.
If you pass the other twosections Within three years,
(12:39):
you're gonna master it.
If you don't pass it withinthree years, you reset, you
start over again.
So if you took it nine times,you would've reset twice.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right, wow, so that's the master.
The odds of the normal averagewine enthusiast going for their
master is.
I'm not going to lie to you.
So let's stop sugarcoating shit.
You probably ain't got a betterchance of getting struck by
lightning.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You have a better chance of winning a lottery.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
So if you have, if you think you're just going to
go be a master psalm, you betterstart studying now and don't
even worry about that until youget through the other three
levels.
First, because it's almost likea video game.
Before you get to the masterboss man, you better learn how
to play right, because you'regoing to be in front of that
controller for a long time.
So level one what's yourrecommendation?
Level one it is what it is.
(13:19):
You've got to start somewhere,right?
That's what I did.
That's where I'm at.
What do you think?
What do you recommend for levelone?
So level one is calledintroduction.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
So you're dipping your foot in the water, and I
love introduction.
I love that section.
It is so much information.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
You go there for a two-day lecture, and't?
For me it's very true.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I thought I knew what I knew, and I knew a lot.
No, I'm like you do level one,because you know I think Chef
should do level ones.
I think Waiters, bartenders,managers in the restaurant, we
should learn about the mostabout food as possible and that
balance.
I mean you don't go torestaurant just to eat, you know
, go to restaurant just to drink.
It's a combination, themarriage both.
That's what makes a beautifulexperience, the food and the
wine together.
So I applaud all chefs who wantto do level one, level two,
(14:05):
keep on going level three ifthey can.
You know I think it's veryimportant.
So I brought the quartermastersommelier to Virginia Beach
seven times in the last 14 yearsand at one point in time I had
two of my chefs, all mybartenders, all my servers and I
even had a server assistant, abus pass level one.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
But we it was intense and what you mean by bringing
it to Virginia Beach, meaningyou brought the opportunity for
it to be tested here in our area.
Yeah, yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
So I requested to have them come to Virginia Beach
.
They politely asked for a$50,000 guarantee that we'd
bring enough students, becausethey want to send their masters
set the test up, come down hereand then have no one take the
test.
That would have wasted theirtime.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
So we had a guarantee that we'd have $50,000 worth of
people to take the test.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And that's a lot of people.
Yeah, $50,000 at about $700 aclip, right, yeah, so that's a
lot of people yeah, but it wasgreat.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
And then the second year they actually called me
back and said, hey, can we comeback Because we had a great
turnout.
We maxed out the turnout and itwas great.
So a lot of people locally,selfishly, a lot of people on my
staff.
We had a guy flying from Alaska.
We had people flying from NorthDakota, from Maine.
(15:23):
Virginia Beach is not badeither, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
What are you feeling about bringing it back again for
another time?
Yeah, yeah, level one.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
I'm definitely going to do it.
I'm hoping that 2026 spring,April, May, we'll do level one
and level two back to back.
Cool, so you know so you'resaying I got a chance.
You definitely have a chance.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Level two.
Yeah, I know For level one.
I mean, what type of prep goesinto that if you're going to
come to that?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
So level one, there's no blind tasting involved.
It's just a matter of learningall about wines and spirits from
around the entire world.
And so when you sign up, theygive you a prep book, and I
would highly advise reading thatbook.
Front to back three times A lotof information there and almost
all information is on the test,but it is to be well-rounded
completely.
So that's very, very importantto be able to just not
(16:07):
understand Napa, not justunderstand Italy, not just
understand France, the wholeworld of wine.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So there's a lot out there.
The good part about the levelone Kristen is that you?
Learn a lot about the technicalthings that you wouldn't really
notice, like wind flow overmountains, yeah, how it affects,
uh, flatlands versus slopes, um, why, who, what, why and where
is level one.
It's kind of like theintroduction to all things grape
wine and stuff like thatwhereas as you go up you're
you're getting more into thewhat's in the glass.
(16:33):
Now you know what I mean, andunderstanding it and and and
picking it apart but, level one.
You're doing a lot of researchon the development of the grape,
where they come from, thehistory of it, realizing that
Romans put fucking grapes allover the world.
There's a lot of informationthat you'd get that you really
(16:53):
wouldn't pay attention tobecause you're so stuck in the
bottle.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Oh, this is great, you drink the juice right.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You're not really focusing on what the vineyards
are going through or things likethat.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I love that.
I wish, I mean I think that as,and hopefully most restaurants
in this area, because again,when I was in the restaurants, I
was at restaurants who hadamazing wine lists I worked with
great.
So I wish they would have saidto us like, as the bartenders,
as you're like, I want you to goand do this, because I think
that again you're right, anyknowledge that adds to the
overall experience is beneficialto the restaurant it's always I
(17:25):
pay for.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
All my employees take the test.
Um, we say we pay for it if youpass.
You know like I don't want themto go there and go up to new
york or someplace to take thetest and not really care about
it.
But they're gonna pass.
I'm gonna pay for their for theexam and it only helps out the
restaurant.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And when I brought the court to when you do that,
mark, do you have a?
Because I consider that too.
I just need someone to pass.
But if you have they pass, doyou have a contract that they
need to at least be with you fora year after, or something to
make sense?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
of it.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Because if you pay for it, they pass and then they
go work for your competitor.
You also just amplify thatwhole problem.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, so my business partner Bill and Joni.
They were saying why do youhelp out the people in the area?
And I train people and I don'tcharge them any money to help
mentor them to do level one,level two, and they're like, why
would you do that forcompetitive restaurants?
Well, it kind of raised the barfor the whole area.
You're right.
Perfect If you're confident.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
What you're saying right now exudes confidence,
because if you're confident,what you're saying right now
exudes confidence.
Because if you're confidentlike I am, I don't give a fuck
what's going on outside.
The more of us that are outthere, the better our area is
going to be, absolutely.
People always say why isn'tJames Baird here, why isn't
fucking Michelin here, all thatstuff?
It's because you have to have acommunity around you.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
You have to have a community.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You've got to build it.
And a lot of people around here.
Their ego is too big to let itgo to other people and that
sucks.
But anyway, let's keep goingFor me.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
I have to be humble and I have to be just down to
earth.
I'm willing to share myknowledge and the original
sommeliers 30, 40 years ago.
They were very guarded withinformation.
They wouldn't share theirinformation and look down on
people, and that's BS, total BSin my opinion.
Look down on people and that'sBS, total BS in my opinion.
So I share all my information.
I help train people.
I don't charge anything Ifthey're serious they want to
learn.
So the more we get certifiedsommeliers in this area, the
(19:08):
better this area is going to be.
So when I started off gosh,like 16 years ago, bringing the
court here, there was four orfive certified sommeliers level
twos and now we're around 40, 45in the area and that helps the
area out.
And so yes you know it does.
If you train someone, theyleave.
They become your competitor.
But you know that just makesyou stronger.
It pushes you further andfurther.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Well, not only that, but they're always going to
remember their mentor, whetherthey like you or not.
They're always going to havethat in the back of their head,
that they got it from you and,if they're going, going to know
that you're there competing aswell.
So they're going to respectthat, hopefully.
Yeah, hopefully.
I don't even know, well, Iguess what I'm saying, mark, is
not hopefully or not.
It's irrelevant, becausewhether they admit it to
(19:51):
themselves or not is not whatI'm talking about.
Hopefully they admit it tothemselves, but it's always
going to be there, whether theyadmit it or not.
It's always going to behaunting them at some point in
time that you are the reasonthey are where they are, whether
they like you, don't like you,but most of them are going to
respect it.
Man, like you said, they'regoing to respect it and they're
going to and they're going to.
It's great for the area.
You know.
It builds up the comp.
That builds up the competitionperiod, right.
(20:12):
So, level one tips you'rewatching what give?
Give us like three good things.
What do you think for level one?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
This may sound silly but there's a simple book called
Wine for Dummies.
Wine for Dummies is easy, it'sshort.
You can read the chapters.
The chapters are two or threepages.
They're not that too criticallyin-depth, they're just a gentle
brush over and get a littlecomfort there.
That's a great book to lookover.
Getting into groups of peoplewho are like-minded, who really
(20:41):
want to do the same thing thatwill accelerate you the fastest.
Have people who are going toshare your information, your
knowledge, at level 1, 2, 3, and4.
At level 4, there are studygroups that get together for
years at a time and they pusheach other.
Like you study Italy for amonth and you share your
information with me, I'll studySpain, christian, you study
France, and we get together andshare information.
(21:02):
So study groups, people who arelike-minded, who have the same
direction of going very, veryimportant, and I think you know
you.
Look at what wine can do in thisindustry.
As a server, we're all here tomake money.
We all want to be successful.
We want to have a happy life.
You want to give yourself a upfor raise in the restaurant
(21:27):
business as a waiter orbartender.
Learn about wine.
You can double your income bylearning about wine.
I've got a good buddy of mineum in las vegas on new year's
eve a couple years ago he had aneight top.
I'm sorry, eight people um 443000 tab.
How much that was food only 10000 the rest was wine.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
That was a thomas jefferson and crew thomas
jefferson and boys.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
So I mean that's pretty incredible what you can
do for a wine tab.
You know, uh, we had uh, um.
So I mean wine balances againstthe food.
It helps, uh, accelerate thetwo together.
And if you want to learn aboutspirits, wine it only helps.
Your tab helps, everyone'stab's tab.
Bottom line of the restaurant.
I had a $125,000 night at oursmall little 60-seat restaurant
(22:07):
with 20 people.
How do you get there withoutwine?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
It definitely can be a friend.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
It is a friend, and it's not only a friend to us as
business owners, but it's afriend to those who's drinking
it, because you get reallyfriendly the more you drink of
it.
People who can spend the moneyon it at that level are getting
a lot more friendly spending themoney.
It is what.
It is right.
The wine was never designed.
Well, that's not right.
Let me back the fuck up on whatI'm saying.
(22:34):
Wine may have been designed tocheap drink back in the day yes.
However, the growth of it, thesystems, the rating yes, however
, the growth of it, the systems,the rating systems, the
bottling that wasn't designed tonecessarily be cheap.
Wine was designed out ofnecessity.
So, yes, it was cheap.
There's a grape, let's turninto alcohol, let's get fucked
up and then refining thatmotherfucker so you can actually
(22:56):
make it palatable, right, yeah,and make it sellable and make
it a thing, an iconic thingaround the world of following.
It is not cheap.
Wine is not a cheap hobby.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
No, it's not, it's not.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
It can be inexpensive , but it can definitely be
expensive.
And you know I don't want tosound snobbish my restaurant.
If I walk around and I see abottle of wine at every table I
think it was a $30 bottle If Isee a wine at every table, I
know they know how to dine.
They have food and winetogether.
They're having a greatexperience.
It's going to be elevated andthey're going to enjoy.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
They know what to do Exactly right?
I don't give a shit.
Look, it's always nice to see afucking Dominus or a Sessakaya
go out and feel good about that,and that's just.
That's just the main staplewords.
Those are the name brands thatwe know of at that level.
Yeah, there's so many more thatare.
When you see them go out,you're like oh wow, you know
what I mean.
But if I see a bottle of wine,like you, people are there to
(23:50):
enjoy what you're offering, andit doesn't matter how much money
is in their pocket.
It's about the experience so ifa 45 bottle on my menu, which I
have for people like that, Iwant everyone to come in here.
I'm going to choose with mysommelier the best $45 bottle we
can get so they can experiencethat and I want them to enjoy.
So to me I don't really carewhat's on the table.
(24:11):
As far as it, you know, ofcourse, we look at the people
who spend huge and buy six, youknow, $600,000 bottles.
Everyone looks at that and belike okay, cool, cool but,
that's far and few between incomparison to the people who are
actually out there justcelebrating an anniversary on a
budget and they want to enjoythemselves.
That's what I really love tosee.
So so you and I have a lot incommon.
When I go look at your cellar,mine is pretty big and unique in
(24:35):
there.
I'll show it to you when weturn the light on.
But it's nothing in comparisonto what you have with your level
of collection.
You have a level of collectionto you.
You have a lot of progressivevintages.
You have a lot of progressiongoing on.
You have a lot of things wehave 1,600 selections of wine,
that's a lot.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
For a small restaurant, that's a lot for a
big restaurant.
Yeah, 1,600 selections.
Wines that are $30 to $30,000 abottle and I'm currently sold
out of my $25 and $30,000bottles right now, trying to get
some more back in, but they'revery hard to come by and so we
have wines that are as young as2024 and as old as 1834.
(25:15):
I'd proudly say I have wines at$10 a glass up to $450 a glass.
I mean, you have to havesomething for everybody.
And so you know, at one pointin time, pre-covid, we did a
thing called the Funky FivesFunctions of Five.
We had 10 bottles of white and10 bottles of red that you could
enjoy between $5 to $5.55,.
You know the early bird kind oftype of thing, for $10 a bottle
.
People are like you have a $10bottle of wine on your list.
(25:35):
I'm like I do.
I'm like is it any good?
I'm like I wouldn't have it inthe restaurant if I wouldn't
make myself.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
So I mean, wine doesn't have to be expensive, it
certainly can be.
But you know, to me, once again, wine is definitely my life,
but when you put wine togetherwith food, people are going to
enjoy the food so much more.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, exactly, and people look at those numbers and
they shake their head.
But however you spend yourmoney, whatever drives you is
your business, and I think winedoes that to people and some
people have a very high callingfor it.
Yes, it is.
There's also a level ofprestige to it.
What word am I looking for?
Not prestige, but that type ofsociety.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I mean it's you know.
I mean it denotes that you've,you know, gotten to a level in
your life.
You can enjoy those sort ofthings, but we do it with
everything we life.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
You can enjoy those sort of things, but we do with
everything we do it with clothes, we do it with cars, we do it
with everything.
Handbags I mean.
Yeah, it blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean birkins are 30, you know, 30, 50 grand.
So if you're gonna, you know, Imean you can spend your money
how you want to spend it.
But it does kind of kind ofhave that um, astuteness into it
, or you know.
But you don't have to have thatto enjoy so.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So a hundred point bottle of wine is not going to
be cheap, but some of them areaffordable to some.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
What does this bottle go?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
for that we're talking about.
It's just under a thousanddollars.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
That's it.
So we're drinking a bottle ofwine that's under a thousand
dollars.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
A hundred dollars is under a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
So how close to a thousand dollars.
We sell this for eight hundreddollars on our list, okay, and
you're sharing it with us, whichis amazing.
You're sharing it with thembecause they're seeing it, and I
would do nothing less.
I would definitely do that withyou as well, and I appreciate
it.
But these are the.
We wouldn't be sitting heretalking to one of the best guys
when I started out saying thatZoe's has some of the best wines
around.
(27:12):
You heard his conversation.
It probably is the.
I can't think of another placethat has a better list.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
No, it is.
Yeah, I can say that.
And I mean we had, you know,the cellars, for you know Burton
Baldwin, we had the privatecellars, so we got to see some
cool wines come through on that.
Like I said, I'm a product ofbeing adjacent to it, not as
fully involved in the.
You know the Somme side of it.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
But I got to experience great wine.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, I am very particular on what I drink, but
even my daughter, who is 17years old, is particular on
wines already because of thatfact, because it's more in your
environment.
If you're used to it, peoplearound you enjoy it.
You learn, but don't be ashamedof starting out and asking
questions.
I'm sure you get that all thetime.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
That is something that is so true, chris.
You have to not be afraid aboutwine.
Wine can be so intimidating.
So when I say you have to notbe afraid about wine, wine can
be so intimidating.
So when I say you have to behumble.
So I'm not sure if I can saythe date today, but if I looked
one year ago today and looked atmyself in the mirror, I'd look
at Mark Sauter going oh, lastyear you thought you knew a
whole lot about wine.
Today last year I looked atmyself.
I didn't know anything.
(28:15):
Last year, nothing about winethere's always so much more to
learn.
So never be scared, never beashamed, be humble, be excited.
Be excited to learn about wine,and we try to get people to go
outside the box and say, okay,you drink the same wine over and
over again.
Maybe try to drink.
There's a thing called theCentennial Club, the 100
different grape varietals.
If people come to therestaurant, no one wants to come
(28:35):
to the restaurant and sayhere's a pen and paper, here's a
test.
Write down all the grapevarietals you know.
There's over 2,500 grapevarietals on this earth and over
1,360 are used for wineproduction.
So a Chardonnay, a CabernetSauvignon, a Merlot, those are
grape varietals.
Write down all the ones youknow that you've had before
People write down 15, 20, 25.
Try to get to 100 in yourlifetime, with yourself, with
(28:57):
your friends, with spouses.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That would be amazing .
It would be so fucking happy.
I'm kidding, I know what you'resaying there's so much more out
there.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Try all these different crazy fun dishes that
are out there and experience it.
Wine can be so fun.
It is scary but it shouldn't beand it shouldn't be daunting
and it is a little bit, but justtake it real.
It's a grape, it comes from theground.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
God's bounding to us People I notice more than
anything.
If you have a people get hitwho are trying to learn about
wine and want to go out and havea nice night and don't know
about wine, they get hit withsticker shock.
Bad, they don't understand whatit is and they just get
intimidated instantly and theygo right for the one that says
$35.
That's not a problem, but whenI go, here's a tip for all you
(29:49):
people who go out there Findyour budget, Don't be
intimidated by the sommelier.
That's why they're there.
They design a wine list, theycreate a wine list and they put
their wines in there and they'reproud of every one of them.
There's a reason why they put a$35 one.
One of the reasons is to makesure you get an option.
Number two is they want to showoff what they've chosen to be
(30:11):
the best $35 bottle of wine.
It's all good.
You're not going to offend orlook stupid by anybody because,
by design, these sommeliers puttogether their wine list in a
proud way to make sure you do it.
Are you trying to give awaysecrets here, Tony?
No.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Check it out.
There's a secret to it.
Yeah, I'm not going to give itaway.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So this is what I?
This is my trick.
This is my trick.
I look at what I want to spendon wine that night.
Sometimes I'm in a great spot.
I want to spend 500.
Some days I'm with people whodeserve 500.
Sometimes I just want to have anice little wine and a 75
bottle, whatever it is.
Yeah, so I'll go in and I'll saycan I speak to the psalm or
whatever?
And they'll come to the tableand I will say I'm going going
to experiment tonight.
I like this, this, this, thisand this.
I have a $300 budget.
(30:52):
Blow me up, let me know whatyou got.
See what you give me somethingdifferent along those lines I
like Nebbiolo, I like Gattinata,I like Sagrantino, I like all
that stuff, and that's what I'mfeeling tonight.
But I'm going to allow you tobring me something.
Here's $300 budget.
Bring me what you got.
If you say the same thing witha $50 budget or a $100 budget,
you're going to enthuse thesommelier because now you're
(31:14):
letting them be them, now you'reletting them create and they
created the menu.
So don't feel bad if you wantto spend that money and don't
feel bad if you want to spend$1,000.
You're going to get what thefuck you get.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So one of the secrets is this was something in the
older days but still holds trueis the sommelier is going to
have the second to leastexpensive wine per category is
known in their favorites.
So if it's a $35 bottle at the$40 bottle, it may be his
favorite wine.
So I mean, don't go to the very,very bottom, just go one notch
up and you're gonna get a greatbottle of wine and when you go
to a sommelier or a wine stewardor a wine director.
(31:45):
If you have confidence in themand they feel that they have
some confidence to talk to youas well, give them parameters or
a budget.
So I go to a table and say, hey, we're having an anniversary,
it's our birthday.
Give me a great bottle of wine.
What's a great bottle of wineto you?
What's a great bottle to me?
It can be different.
I'm not Bill Gates.
I can't afford a thousanddollar bottle every day, so I'm
not going to ever spend thatkind of money on a bottle of
(32:05):
wine.
But what is your parameters?
To say, hey, listen, give me abottle of wine, keep it around
$70 a bottle.
When I go to the table, I bringthree or four bottles.
Once they give me a budget of$70.
I don't bring one bottle at $70.
I bring a $40, $50, $60 bottle.
Put them on the table, becauseI'm not going to gouge somebody.
I'm going to get the respect,sure, and I'm going to come back
.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
That's smart.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
three or four of them and let them choose.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
And, with that being said, if I give you a $70 budget
, I need that information.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
It's important.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Sure, if you bring me a $70 bottle, if I tell you I
got a $70 budget and you bringme a $40 bottle I like, there's
more opportunity that I'm goingto buy two of them now because,
it's only $10, more than $70,and I just got two, so your
sales and your percentages thatyou made your wine list on are
all the same it works out great.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
If they're going to trust me, I've got to trust them
and I've got to be able to giveand deliver to them what
they're looking for, and so I'mnot going to hit anyone over the
head.
I think it's terrible to dothat.
You've got to be able to winthese customers.
You want them to come back andback and back.
If you've won and done acustomer, you'll never see them
again.
Sure down and filling up.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And confidence comes with that.
If they're confident in you,like you just said, if they
trust you and believe in you,they're going to be more apt one
day to come in there and tryout.
Okay, let's try and do a $100bottle of wine.
Most people think that's a lotof money and it is $100 a bottle
for wine when they don't reallyunderstand it.
To them that's their going out.
That's $100.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think they're almost thinking they're taking a
risk because they don't know ifthey like it or not.
They're just betting theirmoney that you're going to give
them a good wine and they'reused to going to the store and
seeing it for getting a $20, $19bottle.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
I always try to talk to the guests and get a little
understanding or insight totheir own personal palate,
because when you say you likeNebula or you like San G's good
information Any word that comesout of your mouth.
I'm trying to ascertain as muchinformation as I can in a very
short period of time of what areyou looking for, what kind of
experience do you have?
What do?
you want to have and I don'twant to bring you a Napa Valley
Cabernet.
If you want a Brunella, I'm notgoing to bring you.
(34:00):
I want to bring you what youlike and if your comfort zone is
A, b you, but I want it to bein a range.
That's going to be exciting foryou and I want you coming back
and being thrilled.
I don't want you walking awayand saying that was an okay meal
.
It's always our philosophy.
My philosophy that I train mystaff is we don't want to meet
(34:20):
people's expectations.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
We want to see them every single time, every time
and no matter how many times youtry and say that, you can't say
it enough, because it's in yourheart.
And what I say is that I haveone thing I tell my staff, and
especially my wine people, isthis don't sell them the bottle
of wine today or the table orexperience today.
Sell them the next one.
(34:42):
Absolutely use today to sellthem the next one.
If you can nail today nicelyand make them confident with you
, they're going to come back andthen they're going to do more
and more and more, and that'swhat our job is.
Our job is to make them comesee the sequel.
Okay, anybody who makes a movie, you can watch that movie one
time, but you want to come upwith a sequel.
You know what I'm saying?
And you've got to be able tosell the sequel and the sequel
(35:10):
is they come back.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh yeah, I mean your staff are.
You're their actors and theirsalesmen.
So it's, did you love this?
Oh my gosh, this is my otherfavorite thing.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I can't wait till you come back and try it so it's
always when you have ananniversary, a birthday or
deployment become back fromdeployment.
We appreciate that support forthe military.
We have cards on the table withyour name on it and every
single person in the restaurantsigns that card and it's on the
table.
And so the other day I wastalking to the table and they're
on a little stand.
So they're clipped on a littlestand about 12 inches off the
(35:37):
table, like that behind you.
Yeah, exactly like that.
I love those little touches.
So I get to this table I said,by the way, if you open the card
up, everybody on the staff isthankful.
You came for your specialoccasion and we signed it.
And the table turned to me andgoes we have a stack of those at
home.
I said a stack of what I said,a stack of Zoe's cards.
We come in for every birthdayand every anniversary.
(35:59):
We have a stack of them.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
That's amazing, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
What kind of feedback is that that they enjoy coming?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
back.
They appreciate it.
Yeah, we have customers we knownow on a first-name basis and
they come in here royally andrealistically, lost another word
Loyally, loyally.
And they just keep repetitively.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Repetitively.
They come back repetitively.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So that happens and it's a great feeling knowing
that what I'm trying to put outthere is that that's exactly
what I want.
That's exactly what I want myfood to do.
You know, right now we'retalking about wine, but as a
chef, the wine works around myfood.
I get inspired, I'll drink somewine.
My son will bring in some wineto me, we'll talk, we'll sit
with the reps and stuff.
(36:41):
I will drink the wine and thefirst thing I'm thinking about,
yeah, that's good wine, but I'mthinking about what I'm going to
cook with it.
So it inspires me to cook.
So good wine inspires me tocook.
Usually, some people will drink, will eat good food and you
have to pair the wine to it.
Whenever we have a wine dinnerhere, I sit down with the reps
and I go through all the wine.
I sit with the reps, I sit withthe SOM and I drink all the
(37:02):
wine.
And that's when I create mymenu.
I don't create the menu firstand make them pair it.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
I drink their wine first and then I pair to that.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That is so brilliant, tony, that so many people, so
many chefs I say people, chefs,they want to be the star, they
want to make this great dish,they want it to like.
This is what I've created, thething that the chef has to know
and understand, and you do.
The wine can't change, it'salready made Right, it cannot
change at all.
Let it inspire you.
You can change the food Correct.
You can add more acid, you canadd more fat, you can subtract a
(37:33):
little salt.
You can do those things, but thewine cannot change.
It is what it is, yeah, and soto make that balance, that's
beautiful.
Very few chefs, I feel, cancompletely grasp that.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Like this right here, and it's humble Right here.
What I'm thinking on this wouldbe a finisher, this would be a
last course, and this would be agrill, but not a full grill.
This would be a touch-off.
Maybe this would be somethinglightly done in the sous vide
and then it would be touched onthe grill just to make that
happen.
If you go too much grill,you're going to lose this, but
if you were just enough, grillthis right here, smoke and fire
(38:04):
Too much smoke too heavy wouldoverpower this, it would
overpower this.
So, but you need a little bitof something to break.
You know what I mean.
So pull the fat out of it inthe sous vide, whether it be
lamb, you know something likethat, a nice tenderloin of lamb
or something.
That's where I'm going withthis, and then then I would
literally sous vide that outwith very light seasoning herbs
(38:24):
and then I would just touch iton the grill at the end on
service.
Just enough to.
There's not enough left tocaramelize or get that crust, or
get that really char, becauseyou don't want too much of the
char, but you want a little bitof flame to touch this and this
would be fucking amazing.
Totally agree with that.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Now he's going to have to cook that for us.
I'm ready.
But that would be the reason westarted this show and that's why
I love having people like youon who know the nuances and the
the elegance and we call it thesexy side to this business.
We do it to createrelationships and you're in it
because the people you actuallyare serving you care about and
they become your family.
I mean the amount of closerelationships that I had with my
(39:04):
customers that I have literallycarried through being at their
houses at holidays and Christmas, watching their kids being born
, them helping with my business,becoming people who supported
through that is absolutelyincredible.
So I mean I'm glad you guys arestill holding that level in
this area, because that's itdeserves it.
This area deserves a lot morethan what we get credit for.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
And then making people happy business and you
know we create experiences andwe get credit for.
And then making people happybusiness and you know we create
experiences.
And you know I I have a, afriend of mine, who's a brain
surgeon.
He's so enamored with what I doand I'm like let's dial it back
a little bit.
You're saving people's lives.
I'm just trying to put a happysmile on your face.
I want you to experience, well,those happy experiences, what
we live for, and those arethings that carry us on and and,
and that's what brings peopleback.
(39:48):
I mean to have that experiencethat they just want to tell all
their friends about.
And hey, I went to the, I wentto luchi last night and I had
this incredible meal and theservice.
Everything flowed perfectly andI'm like I can't wait to go
back.
I mean that's what we work hardfor our money for sure,
absolutely 100 absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
A couple last things.
The most sought after level tome you would know much better,
but to me the most sought-afterlevel of the Court of Masters is
level two.
That's the one people go forand kind of most people end up
stopping and being comfortablewith.
That's the certification.
What are your tips?
Give us three tips of that.
You got the blind tasting, yougot the theory and you got the
(40:28):
service.
So what are your few tips onthat?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
So actually level two , which is called certification,
where you actually become acertified sommelier.
I am very instrumental inmaking that level happen.
I was with the founder of theQuartermaster Sommelier, brian
Julian, at the Sommelier Summitmany years ago out in Napa
Valley and there was level oneintro, and then there was
advanced and there was masterdiploma and there was no level
two.
And advance is you.
(40:52):
Level two is get off the crazytrain.
So you have level three.
You've got to be crazy, you'vegot to dedicate your life.
It's absolutely insane.
So level one, level two andlevel three is like way up there
.
So I helped develop level two,uh, by inspiration, saying there
has to be something betweenlevel one and advanced, uh,
which is certification, and so,um, it's very, very important.
So you can call yourself asommelier once you're certified
(41:14):
sommelier, once you have thatlevel.
No one can dispute that.
And so for level two, you haveto learn blind tasting service
and theory.
Theory is something you can put.
I can't teach someone to putyour nose in a book and learn
and study everything about theworld of wine.
Service is something that hasto be trained by a mentor to
(41:36):
show you how to be done in afine dining restaurant, a
Michelin three star, a fivediamond American restaurant,
that is something, service wise,that they teach you at.
And then the blind tasting youhave to be able to expose
yourself to the varietals.
At level two you're onlyresponsible for around 24 to 28
(41:56):
different grape varietals OldWorld and New World.
So Sangiovese in the Old World,sangiovese in the New World, so
you don't have but about 40, 50wines that you have to learn
inside out in blind tasting.
At level three, yeah, 1,368holders of ballgame.
But so getting comfortable withcore varietals, getting
comfortable with fine dining,service and those things, you
(42:19):
need to either study or have amentor to help you, guide you,
and that's very important.
So in this program there's noschool to go to, it's
self-guided.
No one's going to say here's asyllabus, go do it.
You have to sit there and learn.
You have to be excited aboutwhat that can bring to your
table.
But level two is a great placeto be.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
So if you're going to go to level two basically to
sum it all up you have tasting,blind tasting you have to go
through that.
That's probably the for mostpeople, that would be the
hardest.
The service part of it isreally based off of experience.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
If you have experience you can get that.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Service is very easy, service is easy.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
You should have the service.
If you're going for level two,you should already have service.
You should have that.
But they?
You should have the service.
If you're going for level two,you should already have service.
You should have that.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
But they want a certain thing for service.
So I can't tell you, you know,for service.
You're not going to learn itautomatically, unless you have
someone to show you or directyou.
But once you have me directed,you never forget it.
So if you walk into arestaurant and I say to you,
tony, touch every third tablewith your left hand, then wave
goodbye to me.
Anybody can do that.
It's learned process.
(43:31):
What do they want in finedining?
And so when you approach thetable, you, the bottle, never
touches the glass.
When you pour it, uh, youpresent the cork to the guest.
That goes on a coaster.
You ask the guest when youleave the table would you like
to keep the cork, or shall I fora special memento, uh, or shall
I take it with me?
These are simple little things,that's easy.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So once you learn service, anybody can do it and
that's what I'm getting at,that's what I'm trying to pull
out of you.
Is that right there, thoselittle tips of what people can
look forward to?
What can they expect out ofthese exams?
What can they expect out ofthis test?
So?
Speaker 3 (44:05):
today's knowledge, today's availability.
With technology, youtube, youcan YouTube that information,
and so in the old day youcouldn't do any of that without
someone showing you physically.
Now you can YouTubeCertification sommelier
quarterback.
Sommelier level two serviceexam.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
So give us a little tip real quick on the theory
part of it, because that's theone that a lot of people don't
understand exactly what's goingto be on there.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
So theory is, you know, theory is level one,
pushing up even higher.
So they want you to know thecore thing.
So one of the test questionsand I've, I've helped uh
administer the test many timesfor level two, uh, I don't grade
it, but I help administer thetest at the restaurant, um, and
so they might do very simply,they, they may name eight wines
and you just have to connect itto a region.
So they'll do Côte d'Estrindale.
Well, if you're in the industry, you should know that's a super
(44:57):
second growth Bordeaux, andit's from Bordeaux, france.
Then they put Chateau Bo-Castel.
Well, because it's a chateau.
You might think that it's fromBordeaux, but it's from the
Rhone Valley.
Then I put Sasakaya.
Well, if you're in the industryand you're a level two SOM, if
you don't know where Sasakayacomes from, you shouldn't be in
this business.
It's one of the greatestsupertussies ever made.
It's not the greatest, so it'sthe best of the best.
(45:18):
You shouldn't be a sommelier ifyou don't know the best of the
best.
If someone says that's a RollsRoyce out there, have you ever
heard that before?
For Rolls-Royce, yeah, forRolls-Royce is a decent car,
it's a luxury car.
So you have to know the best ofthe best that's across the
board.
So to be able to be at a tableand someone says to me I brought
a bottle of Chateau FilleRothschild in 1990.
Is that a good vintage?
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, chateau Fille Rothschild is a first growth,
which some similarities have.
That's the type of thing youkind of stop and take your
breath and go.
What did you just say?
Speaker 2 (45:53):
is here.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
You know it's one of them things.
You should know that stuff.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
You should know that stuff.
Yeah, and so that's what acertified sommelier should be
able to walk to a table andsomeone say I can't tell you, I
know every winery in the world.
I don't.
I taste 50 different thousandwines a year, 137 different
wines a day, and I don't know itall.
I'm never going to know it all.
But if you say to me, hey, Ihad a bottle of Mimic de More,
or I had a bottle of HarlanEstate, just Screamin' Eagle, my
(46:16):
friend brought me a bottle ofDominus over.
Oh yeah, I know Dominus.
First of all he used wines.
Philippe Melk was the originalwinemaker Started off in, you
know, 1982.
Know some of those things at ahigher level, but this is a
never heard of Dominus.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
You should also know that if they can't afford a
Dominus and they've heard aboutDominus you can bring them down
to Napa, nook and everythingelse.
It's still fucking deliciousand those are the things that
people should know at that level, awesome, listen.
Like I said, we can talk aboutthis all damn day.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
This is one of them conversations that we're nerding
out on big time.
I love listening to it.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
But at some point in time we do got to cut it short,
and I think that's about now,right, because if not, we're
going to continue going.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
We'll keep going, yeah, so we try and set a time
limit to keep ourselves in check.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Sure, but let me tell you this this definitely needs
a sequel.
We need to get back to this anddefinitely have you back on so
coming soon we need to get backto this, and I also think that
we need to go have some wine atZoe's.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Well, I told him I'm overdue to be there.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So we will make a point.
I'm thinking about bringing acamera in there and doing some
stuff with them.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
We'll bring a camera in and we'll do a fun little
short in there and I can harassyour bar staff a little bit.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Sure, that would be fun too, but you're talking bar.
I know, Come on go for it.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
He didn't even crack that yet he didn't even crack it
.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
So let's be our closer Kristen back to you.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Back to me Well, I love our, so did you just kind
of, what made you bring thistoday?
Because we knew we were goingto talk about wine.
Why did you bring this?
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Well, your show.
You guys do a lot of tequilaand I appreciate that.
I'm just not a huge tequila guy.
So if I'm not drinking wine, Idrink a little bourbon, and if
you're going to have bourbon,you might as well have some
Pappy.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Might as well.
I mean, you know why not?
If you're going to go, go allthe way.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
So where are you at, mostly in your heart?
10, 12, 20, 25?
Where are you at?
I am a 20 and a 15 12'sfantastic too, but that's like
the, that seems like theintroductory pappy.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Well, 10 and 12s are, but they're all great.
I got to have a wonderfulexperience with Julian Van
Winkle.
I was with 21 Psalms and Chefsand we went to.
It was a TV show called Mind ofa Chef, a PBS show.
Anthony Bourdain was season one, chef Eddie Lee was season two.
So we went out and we touredBuffalo Trace with Julian Van
(48:35):
Winkle, then we had lunch withhim and that night we had dinner
at Chef Eddie Lee's restaurantand we did a wine dinner with
Colgan Vineyards and Julian VanWinkle sitting next to me and
his wife Sissy sitting acrossfrom me and he's asking why are
they pairing the Syrah with this?
This, uh, this, uh, blackpepper stuffed, uh, quail?
I'm like, well, I'm explainingwell.
(48:56):
Well, syrah has black pepperflavors, a little bacon, saddle,
leather, sure, and I'm like,wow, I'm teaching Julian Van
Winkle about wine.
It was crazy, crazy experiencefor me, um, and so I just always
been a big fan of Pappy andit's great.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I don't know if you could teach him about whiskey,
though, or bourbon.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, he's.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
I wouldn't want to begin to try.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
I know Well this is.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
I'll share with you what we're doing today.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
A very special way to end this episode, so I truly
appreciate it.
So we'll do that.
Oh yeah, yeah, that is verygood.
A little Kentucky hug rightthere on the chest, a little bit
of love At the end of theepisode.
So from wine yeah, wine towhiskey 100 point wine pappy.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Life is beautiful, Van Winkle, rather, it's fucking
delicious right.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
I know you're just like they're all looking.
We're like hold on, can youwrap?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
this, so we can taste that shit.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
That's what's going on right now, but okay.
So yeah, quick shout out forthe restaurants where everybody
can find you guys so Zoe's Steakand Seafood Restaurant.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
We're on 19th Street in Virginia Beach, next to the
convention center, a smallrestaurant.
We take reservations up to twoyears in advance, and so not
that you can't walk in there ona Saturday and get a table, but
I would Good luck.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
I would not recommend that I try it.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Yeah, one time I got kicked out, you got kicked out,
I had to call you back and tellthem I'm glad to be back here.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
I was like I just wanted to stay and get the bar.
I left work early for this, butI didn't want to cause no
trouble.
I'm not that guy, I'm cool,that was a good time.
That was a great time.
One last thing I want to hit.
We're getting ready to sign out.
Everybody listen, if you don'tknow what you want to buy and
you're by yourself, you'resitting at a bar half bottles.
Will you please bring back thehalf bottle?
(50:38):
Great half bottle program here.
Yes, I'm working on my halfbottle program too.
Half bottles, about two and ahalf glasses, it's all you need.
Spend the money on yourself.
Don't be afraid of buying thewhole bottle.
Half bottles he's got them, Igot them.
Love the half bottles.
Keep on going.
Yeah, half bottles, watch thosehalf bottles.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
I love it.
I'm a half bottle freak.
I do love a half bottle when awinery makes half bottles.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I fucking love it, man, they get it, we're going to
end it on that, because we're
Speaker 3 (51:09):
going to keep going.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Thank you so much, guys.
Ciao for now.
All right, ciao for now.
Ciao.
There we go, salami Huh.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Salami time Meat cheese wine and fucking pappy.
Yep, we're good.
What is better than that?
This is a good day.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
For all you guys who don't know, when we're talking
in this show a lot we talk aboutthe restaurant industry.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I got a mouthful of food you really eat with your
mouth full.
Yeah, why not?
Let's lead that way.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Sorry, mark, got some beautiful salami here in my
head right now Going for it.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
They're in my head right now, going for it With
salami, always comes wine.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Italian heritage, italian lifeline, italian blood.
Not only, though.
That goes throughout thehistory, kristen.
Why don't you say a few wordsso I can swallow this, so you
can chew?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
You truly did this whole situation so we're going
to take a moment and let ourguest introduce himself.
He's just smacking away on somestore-bought meat and cheese.
But yeah, mark, thank you forbeing on with us today.
Obviously a legend, a staple inthe culinary community here in
Hampton Roads too.
But you are going to kind oftake us on.
We're going to go through somejourneys as we talk about wine,
(01:17):
wine certifications and all thefun things.
So you introduce yourself, telleverybody your lovely.
Well, it's a long resume so Ican't even get through it, it's
extreme.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Thank you, guys.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love listening to your showand it's instrumental in one of
the greatest things in HamptonRoads going on right now for the
resume industry.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Thank you, that's good to hear.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm a guy like you.
For sure, I'm a sommelier Zoe'sSteak and Seafood Restaurant in
Virginia Beach.
I've been in the area for along time I hate to say how many
years, but like 37 years in theindustry, and I've been a
sommelier since I was 22 yearsold.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
That's crazy, because no one at 22 years old is
worried about salmon typicallyNot typically Not a lot of them,
especially back then.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah Well, it's kind of crazy.
So I was at a Galleriarestaurant, if anyone remembers
that restaurant in downtownNorfolk.
And I remember I gave mybusiness cards and I had to pull
out a dictionary and pull outhow to spell sommelier and it
was before I joined theQuartermaster Sommeliers.
So it was like the very, verybeginning.
But I took over the wineprogram when I was 22 years old.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So at this point in time, you're a sommelier by word
and definition, not so much bycertification.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, to be a sommelieris like chefs.
I mean, people throw it aroundeasy and sometimes it's very,
very serious.
And so you know it'sfrustrating to hear people say,
oh yeah, I'm a chef, I've got ahot dog stand on the corner, or
I'm a sommelier and I'm you know, I have two bottles of wine on
my wine list, but you know, inthe quarterbacks sommel until
you pass the second level.
So it's a journey, a path, andyou should be able to be
respectful to that, andsometimes that respect gets lost
and we're trying to get toocaught up in that.
(02:55):
But it is a serious thing, Iknow in the world of chefs as
well.
It's almost the same balancethere and it's frustrating, sure
.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
So when you compare the two, I went and I got my
level one right.
I didn't realize how severe itwas to call yourself level two
until you got it, until you goto the level one course.
You got to do the studying,Then you got to go there for two
days.
You got to go through thecourses, then you got to take
your test and hopefully you passthis test and you can study for
it all you want to.
But when you're there taking ityou realize how much stuff you
didn't study.
(03:23):
You know that you didn'trealize the spirits, the drinks,
the bourbons, all the ports,the Madeiras, things like that
Big, big world.
There's a big world and it'sjust at the very beginning.
So I can only imagine as we go.
And the reason I went and gotit is because A I love wine.
I've been dealing with wine allmy life and I absolutely love
it.
B I have over almost a half amillion dollars invested in my
wine program and I think I Ishould be at some level of
(03:46):
certification or evenrecognition.
When you're going to purvey thattype of wine on other people,
people have to trust you andknow what you're doing.
So my next goal, my next stop,would be level two, but we'll
talk about that in a few minutes, let's.
So you got Zoe's.
If people aren't watching thisaren't all from here.
So Zoe's Steakhouse in VirginiaBeach is one of the premier
steakhouses and one of thepremier restaurants in Virginia
(04:08):
Beach.
Virginia Beach is one of thepremier steakhouses and one of
the premier restaurants inVirginia Beach.
It's been there for a long time.
It's a staple of higher endfine dining and the wine program
there, as we all know, iswinning the awards.
And not only does it win theawards, it stands true to it.
And if you're going to gosomewhere to enjoy real steak,
real food, real experience witheducation, we all know that you
go to Zoe's and that's where youbring it.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
And you have ownership in Zoe's.
I do, yes, so you are a ownersommelier, and you're there all
the time.
In fact, your daughter runs thebar there.
Yes, she's on board.
Yes, she's on board, right.
So, whether she runs or not,excuse me if I'm miswording, but
I know she's there.
What?
Excuse me if I'm miswording,but I know she's there.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
What are we drinking here, my man?
What do we got?
We're doing a little CabernetSauvignon from Napa Valley.
This is called Memento Mori.
It's a new project.
Memento Mori it's Latin forremember mortality, remember
you're going to die.
The owner.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
So basically, smell the roses while you're drinking
this.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Enjoy.
Yeah, absolutely, Take every.
Don't take every day forgranted, but enjoy every day.
The owner, a good friend ofmine, Hayes Drumright, got
cancer at 21 years old.
He was in college, he was aswimmer and thought he was going
to die.
So he said it was the worst andbest thing that ever happened
to him.
He lived and he just thinksevery day you got to enjoy every
day, Don't let go of passion.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
And how old is he now ?
Did he make it?
He's 53.
So, from 20, whatever he waswhen he came down with the
cancer, thinking he was going todie, that's not a lot of time
to turn your life around andproduce a 100-point wine,
because that's what this is,correct, perfect scoring wine.
Perfect scoring wine right here, luce Secundo.
Not the first time Won't be thelast, but I'm glad to be
sharing it with you 100.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
100.
100.
We'll go for it.
So we get to sip and then chat.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I'm on a 100-point show, wow.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I think our assistant Nikki needs to grab a glass and
get a taste of this.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
She would highly enjoy this.
Please, guys, why don't youshare them?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Come on grab a glass.
Yeah, you need to taste this.
This is absolutely amazing.
That is beautiful.
So Napa Valley big, strong,different regions in Napa.
A lot of people recognize Napafor what it is.
I used to be a non-fan of Napabecause I grew up with old style
wines, old world wines.
My problem with Napa in thelate 90s, early 2000s into the
mid 2000s was the winemakerstyle and winemaker influence at
(06:22):
the time was that heavyAmerican oak and I just couldn't
get past it.
No matter how good the juicewas, the grape was, the press,
the maceration, any step of theway, I had a hard time getting
through it because I just couldnot get right with that American
oak.
And it seems it's pulling backoff.
They're moving to French or oldAmerican or something.
Am I wrong on that, mark?
No, no.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
I think you're dead on.
So I mean, we started learningabout wine and the Europeans
would use oak, but they useneutral oak.
So it's a balance.
It's like a chef creating adish you have to have a balance
in it, all the flavors have tointertwine and work together and
it's that perfect harmony andbalance which you're trying to
achieve.
That's what 100.1 is, so it'snot too oaky, it's not too less
of oak.
And so, yeah, we in the late90s, early 2000s, we were
(07:04):
over-oaking a lot of the winesand that's a true statement, and
they weren't in balance andthey were just rough.
And now we've really learnedhow to kind of tailor that in,
draw that back and work with theharmony and the balance.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And it was that over-oaking that you're talking
about is true, but for those whodon't know what exactly the
flavor profile I'm going for, isthat a little bit of a spice
vanilla at the end of it thatalways brought out that sweet
vanilla and finish to everythingthat I just couldn't get
through.
So I don't know if it was theoak or the American oak that was
getting me, because if you getthat out of a French oak in a
Cab Franc or something like that, it's good, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
Well, the American oak is the flavors of dill,
coconut and vanilla.
French oak is going to becinnamon and vanilla and black
pepper, and so when theyover-oak it, you get that
balance.
You don't want a glass full ofvanilla, you don't want a glass
full of black pepper, you wantto build it with blackberry,
black cherry, black assise andcedar malt.
So you want those flavorswrapped around.
So the oak should beintertwined and balanced.
(08:02):
We almost can't detect the oak,so it's all in there together.
If you can taste the oak.
It's too much the oak canalmost.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So it's all in there together, right, you can taste
the correct.
It's too much.
The oak can almost, if it'sdone, probably like this.
Obviously it's 100 point wineand we're not the first ones to
admit it.
I mean so much more knowledgeand skill than I gave it that
rating.
I'm just drinking and agreeingwith them, but when I sip it,
deductively it all comes down toa napa cab, without question.
But I'm not getting the.
(08:30):
I'm getting more of a.
If I were to have to saysomething, I'm getting a very,
very light smoke, more so than Iam a straightforward oak, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
The oak is there, but it's almost undetectable.
It's right you get the berriesand the fruit.
They play the.
They're winning the race.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Right.
In this case, the oak did itsjob.
Yeah, exactly, the oak did itsjob and emphasized everything
else it supported.
It didn't lead.
Yeah great, exactly Perfect.
So you have knowledge, andanyone watching who likes wine
or drinks wine or has any focuson wine, this man here has
nonstop knowledge, not onlyabout the wine, but it's amazing
(09:07):
to me how you can sit there andtalk about every you.
You know a lot of producers,you know a lot of vintages, you
know you know a lot about what'sgoing on in the wine world,
more so than what yourqualifications even would say on
paper.
Right, I think that you're whatyou have going on and what you
bring to this area is extreme,and you're you being in this
area for us, almost like yousaid, our show was doing
(09:28):
something for this area.
I think your level of wineknowledge and wine expectation
in this area is crucial for us.
It keeps me, as a guy going,looking up and doing it, so glad
to have you talking about it.
So if you were to go, I went in,got my level one, okay, went to
the Court of Masters and, likeI've already explained why.
So when I was doing it, I wasgoing online.
(09:52):
I'm looking for anything Icould to get me enhanced better,
to learn more, to get a littlebit more knowledge, any hint I
can get, as everybody does.
We all do it.
Right.
You want to have the most infoyou can.
Going into a subject, right?
Someone who's going in, goingthrough the stages, stages,
right, if you're going throughthe levels, give us a little
insight of what people canexpect.
(10:12):
Going into level one.
And then let's go into leveltwo with the, with the blind
tastings what do you recommendthere?
And then if you're going intolevel three, where now we're
getting up hard and then you'regoing up from there, which is
that's a whole notherconversation, so why the fuck is
it so hard?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
Well, to be a master sommelier.
In the last 58 years or so,there's been just barely over
300 people in the world who havepassed all four levels, so it's
considered to be the hardesttest in the world to pass so 500
, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
58 years, 58 years.
John 50 years, that's the courthas been around.
Is that what you're saying?
So the court of mass has beenaround for 58 years and only in
58 years, only 300 people havebeen.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Yeah, it's just like 311, I think right now.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
That's crazy.
So the test is level three andlevel four.
The test is offered once a year.
You have to apply for the testand when you accept to take the
test, the test wasdisadministered in Portland,
Oregon, and one of my studentsjust took his test, Simon.
I'm going to give him ashout-out and this is his fourth
time taking the test.
(11:17):
The record is 16 times takingit before passing, so it's the
last level.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
The record meaning that was the fastest one.
No, no, meaning that was howlong it took the most.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
He took 16 years, 16 tries on the last level before
he didn't give up.
Okay, finally passed Gotcha.
So yeah, simon, a good buddyand friend of mine, he's been a
student of mine for over 10years and I helped him pass
level two, level three and hesurpassed me already.
But he's hardworking a lot ofthe time to study.
But he's hardworking a lot ofthe time to study.
And he passed his first sectionof the Master Sommelier Master
(11:52):
Diploma just last month.
And there was 82 people who tookthe test.
Ten people passed that section,so the other 72 hope they
scored high enough to get aninvitation for next year.
And of those ten, simon's oneof those ten.
They've got two more sectionshe has to complete this year and
if he does he will be Master ofSommelier 312, I guess.
Wow that's insane.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
That's crazy.
And if he doesn't, does he haveto start all over again, or
does that first section alwayshold?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
No, so it's a great question.
It's a very interesting andcool question.
So there's three sections totake.
There's a service exam, writtenoral exam and then blind
tasting.
If you pass the first one, thewritten and oral exam, which
Simon passed, you don't have totake that test for two more
years.
If you pass the other twosections Within three years,
(12:39):
you're gonna master it.
If you don't pass it withinthree years, you reset, you
start over again.
So if you took it nine times,you would've reset twice.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Right, wow, so that's the master.
The odds of the normal averagewine enthusiast going for their
master is.
I'm not going to lie to you.
So let's stop sugarcoating shit.
You probably ain't got a betterchance of getting struck by
lightning.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
You have a better chance of winning a lottery.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
So if you have, if you think you're just going to
go be a master psalm, you betterstart studying now and don't
even worry about that until youget through the other three
levels.
First, because it's almost likea video game.
Before you get to the masterboss man, you better learn how
to play right, because you'regoing to be in front of that
controller for a long time.
So level one what's yourrecommendation?
Level one it is what it is.
(13:19):
You've got to start somewhere,right?
That's what I did.
That's where I'm at.
What do you think?
What do you recommend for levelone?
So level one is calledintroduction.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
So you're dipping your foot in the water, and I
love introduction.
I love that section.
It is so much information.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
You go there for a two-day lecture, and't?
For me it's very true.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I thought I knew what I knew, and I knew a lot.
No, I'm like you do level one,because you know I think Chef
should do level ones.
I think Waiters, bartenders,managers in the restaurant, we
should learn about the mostabout food as possible and that
balance.
I mean you don't go torestaurant just to eat, you know
, go to restaurant just to drink.
It's a combination, themarriage both.
That's what makes a beautifulexperience, the food and the
wine together.
So I applaud all chefs who wantto do level one, level two,
(14:05):
keep on going level three ifthey can.
You know I think it's veryimportant.
So I brought the quartermastersommelier to Virginia Beach
seven times in the last 14 yearsand at one point in time I had
two of my chefs, all mybartenders, all my servers and I
even had a server assistant, abus pass level one.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
But we it was intense and what you mean by bringing
it to Virginia Beach, meaningyou brought the opportunity for
it to be tested here in our area.
Yeah, yes, sir.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
So I requested to have them come to Virginia Beach
.
They politely asked for a$50,000 guarantee that we'd
bring enough students, becausethey want to send their masters
set the test up, come down hereand then have no one take the
test.
That would have wasted theirtime.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
So we had a guarantee that we'd have $50,000 worth of
people to take the test.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And that's a lot of people.
Yeah, $50,000 at about $700 aclip, right, yeah, so that's a
lot of people yeah, but it wasgreat.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
And then the second year they actually called me
back and said, hey, can we comeback Because we had a great
turnout.
We maxed out the turnout and itwas great.
So a lot of people locally,selfishly, a lot of people on my
staff.
We had a guy flying from Alaska.
We had people flying from NorthDakota, from Maine.
(15:23):
Virginia Beach is not badeither, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
What are you feeling about bringing it back again for
another time?
Yeah, yeah, level one.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
I'm definitely going to do it.
I'm hoping that 2026 spring,April, May, we'll do level one
and level two back to back.
Cool, so you know so you'resaying I got a chance.
You definitely have a chance.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Level two.
Yeah, I know For level one.
I mean, what type of prep goesinto that if you're going to
come to that?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
So level one, there's no blind tasting involved.
It's just a matter of learningall about wines and spirits from
around the entire world.
And so when you sign up, theygive you a prep book, and I
would highly advise reading thatbook.
Front to back three times A lotof information there and almost
all information is on the test,but it is to be well-rounded
completely.
So that's very, very importantto be able to just not
(16:07):
understand Napa, not justunderstand Italy, not just
understand France, the wholeworld of wine.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
So there's a lot out there.
The good part about the levelone Kristen is that you?
Learn a lot about the technicalthings that you wouldn't really
notice, like wind flow overmountains, yeah, how it affects,
uh, flatlands versus slopes, um, why, who, what, why and where
is level one.
It's kind of like theintroduction to all things grape
wine and stuff like thatwhereas as you go up you're
you're getting more into thewhat's in the glass.
(16:33):
Now you know what I mean, andunderstanding it and and and
picking it apart but, level one.
You're doing a lot of researchon the development of the grape,
where they come from, thehistory of it, realizing that
Romans put fucking grapes allover the world.
There's a lot of informationthat you'd get that you really
(16:53):
wouldn't pay attention tobecause you're so stuck in the
bottle.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Oh, this is great, you drink the juice right.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
You're not really focusing on what the vineyards
are going through or things likethat.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I love that.
I wish, I mean I think that as,and hopefully most restaurants
in this area, because again,when I was in the restaurants, I
was at restaurants who hadamazing wine lists I worked with
great.
So I wish they would have saidto us like, as the bartenders,
as you're like, I want you to goand do this, because I think
that again you're right, anyknowledge that adds to the
overall experience is beneficialto the restaurant it's always I
(17:25):
pay for.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
All my employees take the test.
Um, we say we pay for it if youpass.
You know like I don't want themto go there and go up to new
york or someplace to take thetest and not really care about
it.
But they're gonna pass.
I'm gonna pay for their for theexam and it only helps out the
restaurant.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
And when I brought the court to when you do that,
mark, do you have a?
Because I consider that too.
I just need someone to pass.
But if you have they pass, doyou have a contract that they
need to at least be with you fora year after, or something to
make sense?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
of it.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Because if you pay for it, they pass and then they
go work for your competitor.
You also just amplify thatwhole problem.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Yeah, so my business partner Bill and Joni.
They were saying why do youhelp out the people in the area?
And I train people and I don'tcharge them any money to help
mentor them to do level one,level two, and they're like, why
would you do that forcompetitive restaurants?
Well, it kind of raised the barfor the whole area.
You're right.
Perfect If you're confident.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
What you're saying right now exudes confidence,
because if you're confident,what you're saying right now
exudes confidence.
Because if you're confidentlike I am, I don't give a fuck
what's going on outside.
The more of us that are outthere, the better our area is
going to be, absolutely.
People always say why isn'tJames Baird here, why isn't
fucking Michelin here, all thatstuff?
It's because you have to have acommunity around you.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
You have to have a community.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You've got to build it.
And a lot of people around here.
Their ego is too big to let itgo to other people and that
sucks.
But anyway, let's keep goingFor me.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
I have to be humble and I have to be just down to
earth.
I'm willing to share myknowledge and the original
sommeliers 30, 40 years ago.
They were very guarded withinformation.
They wouldn't share theirinformation and look down on
people, and that's BS, total BSin my opinion.
Look down on people and that'sBS, total BS in my opinion.
So I share all my information.
I help train people.
I don't charge anything Ifthey're serious they want to
learn.
So the more we get certifiedsommeliers in this area, the
(19:08):
better this area is going to be.
So when I started off gosh,like 16 years ago, bringing the
court here, there was four orfive certified sommeliers level
twos and now we're around 40, 45in the area and that helps the
area out.
And so yes you know it does.
If you train someone, theyleave.
They become your competitor.
But you know that just makesyou stronger.
It pushes you further andfurther.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
Well, not only that, but they're always going to
remember their mentor, whetherthey like you or not.
They're always going to havethat in the back of their head,
that they got it from you and,if they're going, going to know
that you're there competing aswell.
So they're going to respectthat, hopefully.
Yeah, hopefully.
I don't even know, well, Iguess what I'm saying, mark, is
not hopefully or not.
It's irrelevant, becausewhether they admit it to
(19:51):
themselves or not is not whatI'm talking about.
Hopefully they admit it tothemselves, but it's always
going to be there, whether theyadmit it or not.
It's always going to behaunting them at some point in
time that you are the reasonthey are where they are, whether
they like you, don't like you,but most of them are going to
respect it.
Man, like you said, they'regoing to respect it and they're
going to and they're going to.
It's great for the area.
You know.
It builds up the comp.
That builds up the competitionperiod, right.
(20:12):
So, level one tips you'rewatching what give?
Give us like three good things.
What do you think for level one?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
This may sound silly but there's a simple book called
Wine for Dummies.
Wine for Dummies is easy, it'sshort.
You can read the chapters.
The chapters are two or threepages.
They're not that too criticallyin-depth, they're just a gentle
brush over and get a littlecomfort there.
That's a great book to lookover.
Getting into groups of peoplewho are like-minded, who really
(20:41):
want to do the same thing thatwill accelerate you the fastest.
Have people who are going toshare your information, your
knowledge, at level 1, 2, 3, and4.
At level 4, there are studygroups that get together for
years at a time and they pusheach other.
Like you study Italy for amonth and you share your
information with me, I'll studySpain, christian, you study
France, and we get together andshare information.
(21:02):
So study groups, people who arelike-minded, who have the same
direction of going very, veryimportant, and I think you know
you.
Look at what wine can do in thisindustry.
As a server, we're all here tomake money.
We all want to be successful.
We want to have a happy life.
You want to give yourself a upfor raise in the restaurant
(21:27):
business as a waiter orbartender.
Learn about wine.
You can double your income bylearning about wine.
I've got a good buddy of mineum in las vegas on new year's
eve a couple years ago he had aneight top.
I'm sorry, eight people um 443000 tab.
How much that was food only 10000 the rest was wine.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
That was a thomas jefferson and crew thomas
jefferson and boys.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
So I mean that's pretty incredible what you can
do for a wine tab.
You know, uh, we had uh, um.
So I mean wine balances againstthe food.
It helps, uh, accelerate thetwo together.
And if you want to learn aboutspirits, wine it only helps.
Your tab helps, everyone'stab's tab.
Bottom line of the restaurant.
I had a $125,000 night at oursmall little 60-seat restaurant
(22:07):
with 20 people.
How do you get there withoutwine?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
You can't.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
It definitely can be a friend.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
It is a friend, and it's not only a friend to us as
business owners, but it's afriend to those who's drinking
it, because you get reallyfriendly the more you drink of
it.
People who can spend the moneyon it at that level are getting
a lot more friendly spending themoney.
It is what.
It is right.
The wine was never designed.
Well, that's not right.
Let me back the fuck up on whatI'm saying.
(22:34):
Wine may have been designed tocheap drink back in the day yes.
However, the growth of it, thesystems, the rating yes, however
, the growth of it, the systems,the rating systems, the
bottling that wasn't designed tonecessarily be cheap.
Wine was designed out ofnecessity.
So, yes, it was cheap.
There's a grape, let's turninto alcohol, let's get fucked
up and then refining thatmotherfucker so you can actually
(22:56):
make it palatable, right, yeah,and make it sellable and make
it a thing, an iconic thingaround the world of following.
It is not cheap.
Wine is not a cheap hobby.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
No, it's not, it's not.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
It can be inexpensive , but it can definitely be
expensive.
And you know I don't want tosound snobbish my restaurant.
If I walk around and I see abottle of wine at every table I
think it was a $30 bottle If Isee a wine at every table, I
know they know how to dine.
They have food and winetogether.
They're having a greatexperience.
It's going to be elevated andthey're going to enjoy.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
They know what to do Exactly right?
I don't give a shit.
Look, it's always nice to see afucking Dominus or a Sessakaya
go out and feel good about that,and that's just.
That's just the main staplewords.
Those are the name brands thatwe know of at that level.
Yeah, there's so many more thatare.
When you see them go out,you're like oh wow, you know
what I mean.
But if I see a bottle of wine,like you, people are there to
(23:50):
enjoy what you're offering, andit doesn't matter how much money
is in their pocket.
It's about the experience so ifa 45 bottle on my menu, which I
have for people like that, Iwant everyone to come in here.
I'm going to choose with mysommelier the best $45 bottle we
can get so they can experiencethat and I want them to enjoy.
So to me I don't really carewhat's on the table.
(24:11):
As far as it, you know, ofcourse, we look at the people
who spend huge and buy six, youknow, $600,000 bottles.
Everyone looks at that and belike okay, cool, cool but,
that's far and few between incomparison to the people who are
actually out there justcelebrating an anniversary on a
budget and they want to enjoythemselves.
That's what I really love tosee.
So so you and I have a lot incommon.
When I go look at your cellar,mine is pretty big and unique in
(24:35):
there.
I'll show it to you when weturn the light on.
But it's nothing in comparisonto what you have with your level
of collection.
You have a level of collectionto you.
You have a lot of progressivevintages.
You have a lot of progressiongoing on.
You have a lot of things wehave 1,600 selections of wine,
that's a lot.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
For a small restaurant, that's a lot for a
big restaurant.
Yeah, 1,600 selections.
Wines that are $30 to $30,000 abottle and I'm currently sold
out of my $25 and $30,000bottles right now, trying to get
some more back in, but they'revery hard to come by and so we
have wines that are as young as2024 and as old as 1834.
(25:15):
I'd proudly say I have wines at$10 a glass up to $450 a glass.
I mean, you have to havesomething for everybody.
And so you know, at one pointin time, pre-covid, we did a
thing called the Funky FivesFunctions of Five.
We had 10 bottles of white and10 bottles of red that you could
enjoy between $5 to $5.55,.
You know the early bird kind oftype of thing, for $10 a bottle
.
People are like you have a $10bottle of wine on your list.
(25:35):
I'm like I do.
I'm like is it any good?
I'm like I wouldn't have it inthe restaurant if I wouldn't
make myself.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
That's right.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
So I mean, wine doesn't have to be expensive, it
certainly can be.
But you know, to me, once again, wine is definitely my life,
but when you put wine togetherwith food, people are going to
enjoy the food so much more.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, exactly, and people look at those numbers and
they shake their head.
But however you spend yourmoney, whatever drives you is
your business, and I think winedoes that to people and some
people have a very high callingfor it.
Yes, it is.
There's also a level ofprestige to it.
What word am I looking for?
Not prestige, but that type ofsociety.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I mean it's you know.
I mean it denotes that you've,you know, gotten to a level in
your life.
You can enjoy those sort ofthings, but we do it with
everything we life.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
You can enjoy those sort of things, but we do with
everything we do it with clothes, we do it with cars, we do it
with everything.
Handbags I mean.
Yeah, it blows my mind.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, I mean birkins are 30, you know, 30, 50 grand.
So if you're gonna, you know, Imean you can spend your money
how you want to spend it.
But it does kind of kind ofhave that um, astuteness into it
, or you know.
But you don't have to have thatto enjoy so.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
So a hundred point bottle of wine is not going to
be cheap, but some of them areaffordable to some.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
What does this bottle go?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
for that we're talking about.
It's just under a thousanddollars.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
That's it.
So we're drinking a bottle ofwine that's under a thousand
dollars.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
A hundred dollars is under a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
So how close to a thousand dollars.
We sell this for eight hundreddollars on our list, okay, and
you're sharing it with us, whichis amazing.
You're sharing it with thembecause they're seeing it, and I
would do nothing less.
I would definitely do that withyou as well, and I appreciate
it.
But these are the.
We wouldn't be sitting heretalking to one of the best guys
when I started out saying thatZoe's has some of the best wines
around.
(27:12):
You heard his conversation.
It probably is the.
I can't think of another placethat has a better list.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
No, it is.
Yeah, I can say that.
And I mean we had, you know,the cellars, for you know Burton
Baldwin, we had the privatecellars, so we got to see some
cool wines come through on that.
Like I said, I'm a product ofbeing adjacent to it, not as
fully involved in the.
You know the Somme side of it.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
But I got to experience great wine.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Well, I am very particular on what I drink, but
even my daughter, who is 17years old, is particular on
wines already because of thatfact, because it's more in your
environment.
If you're used to it, peoplearound you enjoy it.
You learn, but don't be ashamedof starting out and asking
questions.
I'm sure you get that all thetime.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
That is something that is so true, chris.
You have to not be afraid aboutwine.
Wine can be so intimidating.
So when I say you have to notbe afraid about wine, wine can
be so intimidating.
So when I say you have to behumble.
So I'm not sure if I can saythe date today, but if I looked
one year ago today and looked atmyself in the mirror, I'd look
at Mark Sauter going oh, lastyear you thought you knew a
whole lot about wine.
Today last year I looked atmyself.
I didn't know anything.
(28:15):
Last year, nothing about winethere's always so much more to
learn.
So never be scared, never beashamed, be humble, be excited.
Be excited to learn about wine,and we try to get people to go
outside the box and say, okay,you drink the same wine over and
over again.
Maybe try to drink.
There's a thing called theCentennial Club, the 100
different grape varietals.
If people come to therestaurant, no one wants to come
(28:35):
to the restaurant and sayhere's a pen and paper, here's a
test.
Write down all the grapevarietals you know.
There's over 2,500 grapevarietals on this earth and over
1,360 are used for wineproduction.
So a Chardonnay, a CabernetSauvignon, a Merlot, those are
grape varietals.
Write down all the ones youknow that you've had before
People write down 15, 20, 25.
Try to get to 100 in yourlifetime, with yourself, with
(28:57):
your friends, with spouses.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That would be amazing .
It would be so fucking happy.
I'm kidding, I know what you'resaying there's so much more out
there.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
Try all these different crazy fun dishes that
are out there and experience it.
Wine can be so fun.
It is scary but it shouldn't beand it shouldn't be daunting
and it is a little bit, but justtake it real.
It's a grape, it comes from theground.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
God's bounding to us People I notice more than
anything.
If you have a people get hitwho are trying to learn about
wine and want to go out and havea nice night and don't know
about wine, they get hit withsticker shock.
Bad, they don't understand whatit is and they just get
intimidated instantly and theygo right for the one that says
$35.
That's not a problem, but whenI go, here's a tip for all you
(29:49):
people who go out there Findyour budget, Don't be
intimidated by the sommelier.
That's why they're there.
They design a wine list, theycreate a wine list and they put
their wines in there and they'reproud of every one of them.
There's a reason why they put a$35 one.
One of the reasons is to makesure you get an option.
Number two is they want to showoff what they've chosen to be
(30:11):
the best $35 bottle of wine.
It's all good.
You're not going to offend orlook stupid by anybody because,
by design, these sommeliers puttogether their wine list in a
proud way to make sure you do it.
Are you trying to give awaysecrets here, Tony?
No.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Check it out.
There's a secret to it.
Yeah, I'm not going to give itaway.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
So this is what I?
This is my trick.
This is my trick.
I look at what I want to spendon wine that night.
Sometimes I'm in a great spot.
I want to spend 500.
Some days I'm with people whodeserve 500.
Sometimes I just want to have anice little wine and a 75
bottle, whatever it is.
Yeah, so I'll go in and I'll saycan I speak to the psalm or
whatever?
And they'll come to the tableand I will say I'm going going
to experiment tonight.
I like this, this, this, thisand this.
I have a $300 budget.
(30:52):
Blow me up, let me know whatyou got.
See what you give me somethingdifferent along those lines I
like Nebbiolo, I like Gattinata,I like Sagrantino, I like all
that stuff, and that's what I'mfeeling tonight.
But I'm going to allow you tobring me something.
Here's $300 budget.
Bring me what you got.
If you say the same thing witha $50 budget or a $100 budget,
you're going to enthuse thesommelier because now you're
(31:14):
letting them be them, now you'reletting them create and they
created the menu.
So don't feel bad if you wantto spend that money and don't
feel bad if you want to spend$1,000.
You're going to get what thefuck you get.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
So one of the secrets is this was something in the
older days but still holds trueis the sommelier is going to
have the second to leastexpensive wine per category is
known in their favorites.
So if it's a $35 bottle at the$40 bottle, it may be his
favorite wine.
So I mean, don't go to the very,very bottom, just go one notch
up and you're gonna get a greatbottle of wine and when you go
to a sommelier or a wine stewardor a wine director.
(31:45):
If you have confidence in themand they feel that they have
some confidence to talk to youas well, give them parameters or
a budget.
So I go to a table and say, hey, we're having an anniversary,
it's our birthday.
Give me a great bottle of wine.
What's a great bottle of wineto you?
What's a great bottle to me?
It can be different.
I'm not Bill Gates.
I can't afford a thousanddollar bottle every day, so I'm
not going to ever spend thatkind of money on a bottle of
(32:05):
wine.
But what is your parameters?
To say, hey, listen, give me abottle of wine, keep it around
$70 a bottle.
When I go to the table, I bringthree or four bottles.
Once they give me a budget of$70.
I don't bring one bottle at $70.
I bring a $40, $50, $60 bottle.
Put them on the table, becauseI'm not going to gouge somebody.
I'm going to get the respect,sure, and I'm going to come back
.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
That's smart.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
three or four of them and let them choose.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
And, with that being said, if I give you a $70 budget
, I need that information.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
It's important.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Sure, if you bring me a $70 bottle, if I tell you I
got a $70 budget and you bringme a $40 bottle I like, there's
more opportunity that I'm goingto buy two of them now because,
it's only $10, more than $70,and I just got two, so your
sales and your percentages thatyou made your wine list on are
all the same it works out great.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
If they're going to trust me, I've got to trust them
and I've got to be able to giveand deliver to them what
they're looking for, and so I'mnot going to hit anyone over the
head.
I think it's terrible to dothat.
You've got to be able to winthese customers.
You want them to come back andback and back.
If you've won and done acustomer, you'll never see them
again.
Sure down and filling up.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And confidence comes with that.
If they're confident in you,like you just said, if they
trust you and believe in you,they're going to be more apt one
day to come in there and tryout.
Okay, let's try and do a $100bottle of wine.
Most people think that's a lotof money and it is $100 a bottle
for wine when they don't reallyunderstand it.
To them that's their going out.
That's $100.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I think they're almost thinking they're taking a
risk because they don't know ifthey like it or not.
They're just betting theirmoney that you're going to give
them a good wine and they'reused to going to the store and
seeing it for getting a $20, $19bottle.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
I always try to talk to the guests and get a little
understanding or insight totheir own personal palate,
because when you say you likeNebula or you like San G's good
information Any word that comesout of your mouth.
I'm trying to ascertain as muchinformation as I can in a very
short period of time of what areyou looking for, what kind of
experience do you have?
What do?
you want to have and I don'twant to bring you a Napa Valley
Cabernet.
If you want a Brunella, I'm notgoing to bring you.
(34:00):
I want to bring you what youlike and if your comfort zone is
A, b you, but I want it to bein a range.
That's going to be exciting foryou and I want you coming back
and being thrilled.
I don't want you walking awayand saying that was an okay meal
.
It's always our philosophy.
My philosophy that I train mystaff is we don't want to meet
(34:20):
people's expectations.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
We want to see them every single time, every time
and no matter how many times youtry and say that, you can't say
it enough, because it's in yourheart.
And what I say is that I haveone thing I tell my staff, and
especially my wine people, isthis don't sell them the bottle
of wine today or the table orexperience today.
Sell them the next one.
(34:42):
Absolutely use today to sellthem the next one.
If you can nail today nicelyand make them confident with you
, they're going to come back andthen they're going to do more
and more and more, and that'swhat our job is.
Our job is to make them comesee the sequel.
Okay, anybody who makes a movie, you can watch that movie one
time, but you want to come upwith a sequel.
You know what I'm saying?
And you've got to be able tosell the sequel and the sequel
(35:10):
is they come back.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh yeah, I mean your staff are.
You're their actors and theirsalesmen.
So it's, did you love this?
Oh my gosh, this is my otherfavorite thing.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I can't wait till you come back and try it so it's
always when you have ananniversary, a birthday or
deployment become back fromdeployment.
We appreciate that support forthe military.
We have cards on the table withyour name on it and every
single person in the restaurantsigns that card and it's on the
table.
And so the other day I wastalking to the table and they're
on a little stand.
So they're clipped on a littlestand about 12 inches off the
(35:37):
table, like that behind you.
Yeah, exactly like that.
I love those little touches.
So I get to this table I said,by the way, if you open the card
up, everybody on the staff isthankful.
You came for your specialoccasion and we signed it.
And the table turned to me andgoes we have a stack of those at
home.
I said a stack of what I said,a stack of Zoe's cards.
We come in for every birthdayand every anniversary.
(35:59):
We have a stack of them.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
That's amazing, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
What kind of feedback is that that they enjoy coming?
Speaker 1 (36:03):
back.
They appreciate it.
Yeah, we have customers we knownow on a first-name basis and
they come in here royally andrealistically, lost another word
Loyally, loyally.
And they just keep repetitively.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Repetitively.
They come back repetitively.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So that happens and it's a great feeling knowing
that what I'm trying to put outthere is that that's exactly
what I want.
That's exactly what I want myfood to do.
You know, right now we'retalking about wine, but as a
chef, the wine works around myfood.
I get inspired, I'll drink somewine.
My son will bring in some wineto me, we'll talk, we'll sit
with the reps and stuff.
(36:41):
I will drink the wine and thefirst thing I'm thinking about,
yeah, that's good wine, but I'mthinking about what I'm going to
cook with it.
So it inspires me to cook.
So good wine inspires me tocook.
Usually, some people will drink, will eat good food and you
have to pair the wine to it.
Whenever we have a wine dinnerhere, I sit down with the reps
and I go through all the wine.
I sit with the reps, I sit withthe SOM and I drink all the
(37:02):
wine.
And that's when I create mymenu.
I don't create the menu firstand make them pair it.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
I drink their wine first and then I pair to that.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
That is so brilliant, tony, that so many people, so
many chefs I say people, chefs,they want to be the star, they
want to make this great dish,they want it to like.
This is what I've created, thething that the chef has to know
and understand, and you do.
The wine can't change, it'salready made Right, it cannot
change at all.
Let it inspire you.
You can change the food Correct.
You can add more acid, you canadd more fat, you can subtract a
(37:33):
little salt.
You can do those things, but thewine cannot change.
It is what it is, yeah, and soto make that balance, that's
beautiful.
Very few chefs, I feel, cancompletely grasp that.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Like this right here, and it's humble Right here.
What I'm thinking on this wouldbe a finisher, this would be a
last course, and this would be agrill, but not a full grill.
This would be a touch-off.
Maybe this would be somethinglightly done in the sous vide
and then it would be touched onthe grill just to make that
happen.
If you go too much grill,you're going to lose this, but
if you were just enough, grillthis right here, smoke and fire
(38:04):
Too much smoke too heavy wouldoverpower this, it would
overpower this.
So, but you need a little bitof something to break.
You know what I mean.
So pull the fat out of it inthe sous vide, whether it be
lamb, you know something likethat, a nice tenderloin of lamb
or something.
That's where I'm going withthis, and then then I would
literally sous vide that outwith very light seasoning herbs
(38:24):
and then I would just touch iton the grill at the end on
service.
Just enough to.
There's not enough left tocaramelize or get that crust, or
get that really char, becauseyou don't want too much of the
char, but you want a little bitof flame to touch this and this
would be fucking amazing.
Totally agree with that.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Now he's going to have to cook that for us.
I'm ready.
But that would be the reason westarted this show and that's why
I love having people like youon who know the nuances and the
the elegance and we call it thesexy side to this business.
We do it to createrelationships and you're in it
because the people you actuallyare serving you care about and
they become your family.
I mean the amount of closerelationships that I had with my
(39:04):
customers that I have literallycarried through being at their
houses at holidays and Christmas, watching their kids being born
, them helping with my business,becoming people who supported
through that is absolutelyincredible.
So I mean I'm glad you guys arestill holding that level in
this area, because that's itdeserves it.
This area deserves a lot morethan what we get credit for.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
And then making people happy business and you
know we create experiences andwe get credit for.
And then making people happybusiness and you know we create
experiences.
And you know I I have a, afriend of mine, who's a brain
surgeon.
He's so enamored with what I doand I'm like let's dial it back
a little bit.
You're saving people's lives.
I'm just trying to put a happysmile on your face.
I want you to experience, well,those happy experiences, what
we live for, and those arethings that carry us on and and,
and that's what brings peopleback.
(39:48):
I mean to have that experiencethat they just want to tell all
their friends about.
And hey, I went to the, I wentto luchi last night and I had
this incredible meal and theservice.
Everything flowed perfectly andI'm like I can't wait to go
back.
I mean that's what we work hardfor our money for sure,
absolutely 100 absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
A couple last things.
The most sought after level tome you would know much better,
but to me the most sought-afterlevel of the Court of Masters is
level two.
That's the one people go forand kind of most people end up
stopping and being comfortablewith.
That's the certification.
What are your tips?
Give us three tips of that.
You got the blind tasting, yougot the theory and you got the
(40:28):
service.
So what are your few tips onthat?
Speaker 3 (40:31):
So actually level two , which is called certification,
where you actually become acertified sommelier.
I am very instrumental inmaking that level happen.
I was with the founder of theQuartermaster Sommelier, brian
Julian, at the Sommelier Summitmany years ago out in Napa
Valley and there was level oneintro, and then there was
advanced and there was masterdiploma and there was no level
two.
And advance is you.
(40:52):
Level two is get off the crazytrain.
So you have level three.
You've got to be crazy, you'vegot to dedicate your life.
It's absolutely insane.
So level one, level two andlevel three is like way up there
.
So I helped develop level two,uh, by inspiration, saying there
has to be something betweenlevel one and advanced, uh,
which is certification, and so,um, it's very, very important.
So you can call yourself asommelier once you're certified
(41:14):
sommelier, once you have thatlevel.
No one can dispute that.
And so for level two, you haveto learn blind tasting service
and theory.
Theory is something you can put.
I can't teach someone to putyour nose in a book and learn
and study everything about theworld of wine.
Service is something that hasto be trained by a mentor to
(41:36):
show you how to be done in afine dining restaurant, a
Michelin three star, a fivediamond American restaurant,
that is something, service wise,that they teach you at.
And then the blind tasting youhave to be able to expose
yourself to the varietals.
At level two you're onlyresponsible for around 24 to 28
(41:56):
different grape varietals OldWorld and New World.
So Sangiovese in the Old World,sangiovese in the New World, so
you don't have but about 40, 50wines that you have to learn
inside out in blind tasting.
At level three, yeah, 1,368holders of ballgame.
But so getting comfortable withcore varietals, getting
comfortable with fine dining,service and those things, you
(42:19):
need to either study or have amentor to help you, guide you,
and that's very important.
So in this program there's noschool to go to, it's
self-guided.
No one's going to say here's asyllabus, go do it.
You have to sit there and learn.
You have to be excited aboutwhat that can bring to your
table.
But level two is a great placeto be.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
So if you're going to go to level two basically to
sum it all up you have tasting,blind tasting you have to go
through that.
That's probably the for mostpeople, that would be the
hardest.
The service part of it isreally based off of experience.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
If you have experience you can get that.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Service is very easy, service is easy.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
You should have the service.
If you're going for level two,you should already have service.
You should have that.
But they?
You should have the service.
If you're going for level two,you should already have service.
You should have that.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
But they want a certain thing for service.
So I can't tell you, you know,for service.
You're not going to learn itautomatically, unless you have
someone to show you or directyou.
But once you have me directed,you never forget it.
So if you walk into arestaurant and I say to you,
tony, touch every third tablewith your left hand, then wave
goodbye to me.
Anybody can do that.
It's learned process.
(43:31):
What do they want in finedining?
And so when you approach thetable, you, the bottle, never
touches the glass.
When you pour it, uh, youpresent the cork to the guest.
That goes on a coaster.
You ask the guest when youleave the table would you like
to keep the cork, or shall I fora special memento, uh, or shall
I take it with me?
These are simple little things,that's easy.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So once you learn service, anybody can do it and
that's what I'm getting at,that's what I'm trying to pull
out of you.
Is that right there, thoselittle tips of what people can
look forward to?
What can they expect out ofthese exams?
What can they expect out ofthis test?
So?
Speaker 3 (44:05):
today's knowledge, today's availability.
With technology, youtube, youcan YouTube that information,
and so in the old day youcouldn't do any of that without
someone showing you physically.
Now you can YouTubeCertification sommelier
quarterback.
Sommelier level two serviceexam.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
So give us a little tip real quick on the theory
part of it, because that's theone that a lot of people don't
understand exactly what's goingto be on there.
Speaker 3 (44:35):
So theory is, you know, theory is level one,
pushing up even higher.
So they want you to know thecore thing.
So one of the test questionsand I've, I've helped uh
administer the test many timesfor level two, uh, I don't grade
it, but I help administer thetest at the restaurant, um, and
so they might do very simply,they, they may name eight wines
and you just have to connect itto a region.
So they'll do Côte d'Estrindale.
Well, if you're in the industry, you should know that's a super
(44:57):
second growth Bordeaux, andit's from Bordeaux, france.
Then they put Chateau Bo-Castel.
Well, because it's a chateau.
You might think that it's fromBordeaux, but it's from the
Rhone Valley.
Then I put Sasakaya.
Well, if you're in the industryand you're a level two SOM, if
you don't know where Sasakayacomes from, you shouldn't be in
this business.
It's one of the greatestsupertussies ever made.
It's not the greatest, so it'sthe best of the best.
(45:18):
You shouldn't be a sommelier ifyou don't know the best of the
best.
If someone says that's a RollsRoyce out there, have you ever
heard that before?
For Rolls-Royce, yeah, forRolls-Royce is a decent car,
it's a luxury car.
So you have to know the best ofthe best that's across the
board.
So to be able to be at a tableand someone says to me I brought
a bottle of Chateau FilleRothschild in 1990.
Is that a good vintage?
Speaker 1 (45:39):
Yeah, chateau Fille Rothschild is a first growth,
which some similarities have.
That's the type of thing youkind of stop and take your
breath and go.
What did you just say?
Speaker 2 (45:53):
is here.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
You know it's one of them things.
You should know that stuff.
Speaker 3 (45:56):
You should know that stuff.
Yeah, and so that's what acertified sommelier should be
able to walk to a table andsomeone say I can't tell you, I
know every winery in the world.
I don't.
I taste 50 different thousandwines a year, 137 different
wines a day, and I don't know itall.
I'm never going to know it all.
But if you say to me, hey, Ihad a bottle of Mimic de More,
or I had a bottle of HarlanEstate, just Screamin' Eagle, my
(46:16):
friend brought me a bottle ofDominus over.
Oh yeah, I know Dominus.
First of all he used wines.
Philippe Melk was the originalwinemaker Started off in, you
know, 1982.
Know some of those things at ahigher level, but this is a
never heard of Dominus.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
You should also know that if they can't afford a
Dominus and they've heard aboutDominus you can bring them down
to Napa, nook and everythingelse.
It's still fucking deliciousand those are the things that
people should know at that level, awesome, listen.
Like I said, we can talk aboutthis all damn day.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
This is one of them conversations that we're nerding
out on big time.
I love listening to it.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
But at some point in time we do got to cut it short,
and I think that's about now,right, because if not, we're
going to continue going.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
We'll keep going, yeah, so we try and set a time
limit to keep ourselves in check.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Sure, but let me tell you this this definitely needs
a sequel.
We need to get back to this anddefinitely have you back on so
coming soon we need to get backto this, and I also think that
we need to go have some wine atZoe's.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
Well, I told him I'm overdue to be there.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
So we will make a point.
I'm thinking about bringing acamera in there and doing some
stuff with them.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
We'll bring a camera in and we'll do a fun little
short in there and I can harassyour bar staff a little bit.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Sure, that would be fun too, but you're talking bar.
I know, Come on go for it.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
He didn't even crack that yet he didn't even crack it
.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
So let's be our closer Kristen back to you.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Back to me Well, I love our, so did you just kind
of, what made you bring thistoday?
Because we knew we were goingto talk about wine.
Why did you bring this?
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Well, your show.
You guys do a lot of tequilaand I appreciate that.
I'm just not a huge tequila guy.
So if I'm not drinking wine, Idrink a little bourbon, and if
you're going to have bourbon,you might as well have some
Pappy.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Might as well.
I mean, you know why not?
If you're going to go, go allthe way.
Speaker 1 (47:56):
So where are you at, mostly in your heart?
10, 12, 20, 25?
Where are you at?
I am a 20 and a 15 12'sfantastic too, but that's like
the, that seems like theintroductory pappy.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Well, 10 and 12s are, but they're all great.
I got to have a wonderfulexperience with Julian Van
Winkle.
I was with 21 Psalms and Chefsand we went to.
It was a TV show called Mind ofa Chef, a PBS show.
Anthony Bourdain was season one, chef Eddie Lee was season two.
So we went out and we touredBuffalo Trace with Julian Van
(48:35):
Winkle, then we had lunch withhim and that night we had dinner
at Chef Eddie Lee's restaurantand we did a wine dinner with
Colgan Vineyards and Julian VanWinkle sitting next to me and
his wife Sissy sitting acrossfrom me and he's asking why are
they pairing the Syrah with this?
This, uh, this, uh, blackpepper stuffed, uh, quail?
I'm like, well, I'm explainingwell.
(48:56):
Well, syrah has black pepperflavors, a little bacon, saddle,
leather, sure, and I'm like,wow, I'm teaching Julian Van
Winkle about wine.
It was crazy, crazy experiencefor me, um, and so I just always
been a big fan of Pappy andit's great.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
I don't know if you could teach him about whiskey,
though, or bourbon.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, he's.
Speaker 3 (49:12):
I wouldn't want to begin to try.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
I know Well this is.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
I'll share with you what we're doing today.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
A very special way to end this episode, so I truly
appreciate it.
So we'll do that.
Oh yeah, yeah, that is verygood.
A little Kentucky hug rightthere on the chest, a little bit
of love At the end of theepisode.
So from wine yeah, wine towhiskey 100 point wine pappy.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Life is beautiful, Van Winkle, rather, it's fucking
delicious right.
Speaker 2 (49:46):
I know you're just like they're all looking.
We're like hold on, can youwrap?
Speaker 1 (49:50):
this, so we can taste that shit.
Speaker 2 (49:51):
That's what's going on right now, but okay.
So yeah, quick shout out forthe restaurants where everybody
can find you guys so Zoe's Steakand Seafood Restaurant.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
We're on 19th Street in Virginia Beach, next to the
convention center, a smallrestaurant.
We take reservations up to twoyears in advance, and so not
that you can't walk in there ona Saturday and get a table, but
I would Good luck.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
I would not recommend that I try it.
Speaker 3 (50:11):
Yeah, one time I got kicked out, you got kicked out,
I had to call you back and tellthem I'm glad to be back here.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
I was like I just wanted to stay and get the bar.
I left work early for this, butI didn't want to cause no
trouble.
I'm not that guy, I'm cool,that was a good time.
That was a great time.
One last thing I want to hit.
We're getting ready to sign out.
Everybody listen, if you don'tknow what you want to buy and
you're by yourself, you'resitting at a bar half bottles.
Will you please bring back thehalf bottle?
(50:38):
Great half bottle program here.
Yes, I'm working on my halfbottle program too.
Half bottles, about two and ahalf glasses, it's all you need.
Spend the money on yourself.
Don't be afraid of buying thewhole bottle.
Half bottles he's got them, Igot them.
Love the half bottles.
Keep on going.
Yeah, half bottles, watch thosehalf bottles.
Speaker 2 (50:55):
I love it.
I'm a half bottle freak.
I do love a half bottle when awinery makes half bottles.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I fucking love it, man, they get it, we're going to
end it on that, because we're
Speaker 3 (51:09):
going to keep going.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Thank you so much, guys.
Ciao for now.
All right, ciao for now.
Ciao.
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