What if building a home was as fast and seamless as assembling a car?
In this episode, I sit down with Alexis Rivas, co-founder and CEO of Cover, to talk about his company's bold efforts to reinvent how homes are built and the slow-motion disaster of LA's permitting system.
Alexis shares how Cover is rethinking every step of the building process—from design and engineering to manufacturing and on-site assembly. We explore how they set a new record for the fastest ADU ever built in Los Angeles (3.5 months from contract to occupancy), and why the biggest bottleneck he faces is bureaucracy.
We talk about why the current permitting system is broke and why real reform means deleting entire layers of red tape, not just “streamlining” bad processes. We also talk about how much potential California has left to grow and what it would look like to house 1 billion people. We also explore the deeper political and cultural shift needed to spark a true pro-housing movement in California.
Subscribe at californiafuturesociety.com
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVNumolJuKvqJScBEnhe8hQ
Chapters
00:00 – Intro
05:29 – Cover’s Long-Term Vision
08:23 – 1 Billion Californians
14:01 – Cover and California’s Identity
17:04 – Why Build in California?
20:17 – LA Fire Rebuild
24:17 – Policy Levers to Create More Housing
32:14 – Building a Pro-Housing Movement
35:00 – Hope for the Future of California
Keywords
California housing crisis, LA housing policy, permitting delays Los Angeles, ADU construction California, prefab homes California, modular homebuilding, Alexis Rivas Cover, Cover homes interview, California Forever project, Solano County new city, zoning reform California, housing innovation, homebuilding startups, pro-housing movement, building in California, factory-built homes, urban growth California, fast housing solutions, real estate development California, architecture and design innovation, housing affordability California, home permits LA, construction tech, future of home design
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Los Angeles is especially exciting when it comes to the
history of of modern architecture and design.
We built a set of life-size Legoblocks that you can connect to
make any kind of layout. We recently set the record for
the fastest Adu built in LA cityever.
Technology has allowed humanity to grow and prosper.
(00:21):
I think California needs to be more competitive when it comes
to being probusiness. This is a place that has a lot
of energy and a lot of people with energy and and the design
tired to make change. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the California Future Societypodcast.
As the time of this recording, it has now been roughly four
months since the devastating fires swept through Los Angeles.
And in those four months, less than 10 permits have been issued
(00:45):
for the rebuilding effort. Now, you may know about this if
you follow the guest today, Alexis Revis on X, where he's
been posting about the challenges of what it takes to
rebuild and how long it took to get a permit.
Many of us recall and mid the horror of the fires, and in the
aftermath, our leaders got on television.
They talked about how they were going to be streamlining the
process, accelerating the rebuild, cutting red tape so
(01:07):
that we could. Rebuild quickly but.
As Alexis was posting about, hisexperience of trying to actually
get a permit was incredibly painful, incredibly slow, and
reflected the broken bureaucratic system that existed
before the fires took place. We talked about why permitting
and building is so slow, especially in places like Los
Angeles. We talked about why he chose to
locate his factory in Los Angeles in the 1st place.
(01:29):
And we talked about his vision for the future of the state.
Can the state continue to grow? Is California full?
So if you care about. Rebuilding in Los Angeles if you
want to see California build more homes in the future and get
out of our housing crisis, or ifyou just want to know more.
About how creative people like. Alexis and his team at Cover are
rethinking how we build homes for the future.
You're going to have a great time listening to this
(01:50):
conversation. Make sure to subscribe as.
Always, wherever you're. Hearing this or at California
futuresociety.com. And with that.
Let's go to Alexis in their factory in Gardena, CA.
Well. Alexis, I'm really excited to do
this. How you doing today?
Good. How are you?
Doing well, yeah. And so for those who don't know
you, you know, tell us about yourself and tell us about your
(02:10):
connection to California and what brought you here to the
state. Sure.
I'm the Co founder and CEO of Cover and at Cover we design,
permit, manufacture and install homes.
We're known for AD us and we just started doing full size
homes as well. Wow, that's so exciting.
Yeah. And we're in one of the AD US
here. It's beautiful.
(02:32):
Like you can see the attention to detail, the quality.
My wife watches a lot of, you know, HGTV home renovation
shows. And so, I don't know, just you
can tell that there's a lot of attention to detail all
throughout the place. Thank you.
Yeah, the, the, the, the approach and what we're trying
to do with cover is take the kind of quality and thought that
(02:52):
normally goes with like really high end construction where you
hire top tier architect, a top tier general contractor and make
that something that's accessibleto a lot more people through
mass production and through, youknow, basically engineering the
product and engineering a system.
And so, you know, it's how do you, how do you make better
homes for everyone? Yeah.
(03:13):
Well, tell me about where you all are at in the trajectory of
your company. I know you compared it to like
the Tesla Roadster phase. It's really exciting that you're
moving into homes. Tell us about the trajectory and
where we currently sit in coverslife.
Sure. So we, you know, basically we
started off with an idea and we started building homes.
(03:37):
Yeah, We sold build iterated anda lot of the iteration was
around how do you make it the whole process go faster both
from a production standpoint andalso from an installation
standpoint on site. Because unlike a lot of other
prefab where you have an entire home or maybe 2 parts of a home
(03:58):
shipped on a trailer, you know, craned into place, the way that
we've approached it is panelized.
So what we build in our factory are wall panels, floor panels,
roof panels. Those are, you know, made with
insulation, with waterproofing, with often even electrical and
plumbing already installed in the panels.
And then those are shipped on site.
But that's a much more complex problem when it comes to how do
(04:19):
you put this together quickly and efficiently.
So a lot of the time has been spent on figuring that out and
developing that system. And now we have a system.
We recently set the record for the fastest Adu built, new Adu
built in LA City ever. Wow.
And that was yeah. Yeah, that was so.
So that was 3 1/2 months from contract signing to certificate
(04:43):
of occupancy, which for which might actually sound slow, like
3 1/2 months doesn't sound that fast.
Permits basically took just under a month, which is the
fastest we've ever done. I'd love for all permits to take
under a month. Yeah.
We'll talk more about that later, yeah.
A lot of that that's unusual. And then we did the site work.
(05:04):
So that's foundation some demolition removal of trees, you
know, basically preparing the the site and then the
installation of the of the coveritself took just about a month,
right? So it's actually the
construction itself was fast andthen a few weeks of paperwork
back, back and forth to get the certificate of occupancy, right.
So if you look at like a bulk ofthe time was actually even on
(05:24):
that record project regulatory related, yeah.
Well, and tell me for context, 31/2 months, when you were first
starting to build, what did thattypical timeline look like?
Where have you come from? Yeah, I mean it, it took, you
know, you know, it, it, it normal construction, just forget
cover. Yeah, yeah, normal construction.
You know, you might be looking at six months just for permit.
(05:48):
Wow, right. Average is actually a bit longer
than that and another year or more for the construction after
the permit, right. So you're looking at like 18
months. So 3 1/2 is way faster.
You know, we were, you know, it would have taken us three months
early on just for the installation if you exclude the
permits, if you exclude the regulatory, it was taking us 3-4
(06:11):
even months to install these at first as we were developing the
system and we got faster and faster and we learned how to,
you know, we redesigned the panels and lots of iteration.
Wow. And tell me about the long term
vision. So you started with AD US,
you're now transitioning to homes when when you're thinking
5-10 years in the future, you'reeven beyond.
What do you see as the long termtrajectory for cover?
(06:32):
So really what it is is we've developed a system, right And we
started with AD us because they're they're kind of the
smallest form factor of a home. Yeah, right, the atomic unit of
a living. Unit.
Yeah, you can't. I mean, you know, anything
smaller is no longer a home. It's a shed.
Yeah, basically. So it's the has a kitchen, it's
the has a bathroom, it's the hasAC.
(06:53):
So it has all of the complexity of a home on a smaller scale.
So that's why we started with ADus.
The division was always to go into homes and now you know
where we're going with this is, is it's basically the same
panels that are made in the production lines.
We've, we've figured out, you can kind of think of it like
we've built a, a life, a set of life-size Lego blocks that you
(07:13):
can connect to make any kind of layout.
So I, I think this is one of thebig differences.
People think, oh, it's made in the factory.
I can only pick one of three with us.
You don't have to, you don't have to compromise and pick, you
know, one of five or one of 10 or one of three layouts.
We build with our set of Lego blocks.
And as long as what you know, we're designing with those Lego
(07:34):
blocks, we can create virtually any kind of layout.
So, you know, you can do it. You know, we're we're literally
in permitting for homes ranging from, you know, Adu sized 800
square foot homes, right, or AD us all the way to 4000 square
foot homes, right with, you know, large, you know, I mean
(07:57):
4000 square foot homes. Yeah.
And they're made from the same Lego blocks?
Yeah, made on the same production line.
And will you be able to build multi family as well multi story
long term eventually? Yeah.
So you. Know we right now the focus is
definitely on on, you know homesand AD us yeah and there's a big
market there yeah. But eventually you know this
(08:19):
same Lego system can expand to do multifamily.
Yeah. Well, I think it's incredibly
cool. And to see the trajectory, the
thoughtfulness, not only in the Adu itself, but I know having
heard you speak before, the thoughtfulness into that system,
into that design process that I,I know will just pay dividends
in the future. It's all very exciting.
So I want to transition. We'll come back to permitting
later on, but I want to talk about your, not just your vision
(08:41):
for the company, but also the way that it's tied into the
vision for your vision for the state.
I know this is something you talk about a lot on X and you
post about. And part of what draws me to
cover is that, you know, this isn't just a vision of nice
homes for some people. It's you talk a lot about the
vision of, of growing the state of expanding, of building
California, not just in a literal sense of a single Adu.
(09:02):
Where did that come from? So I think it comes from from
seeing opportunity to build everywhere, right.
Like when I look at a place, youknow, especially a place with,
with weather and geography and, you know, some, some core
attributes that are as desirableas California's, I see a lot of
(09:23):
opportunity. And I, and I actually see a lot
of opportunity almost anywhere Itravel to and, and see, you
know, I'm like, oh, you could build something there because I,
I like building. Yeah.
So that's, I think that's just natural part of me, right.
But when I look at California specifically, right, I think
it's there. There's a lot of talk around,
(09:47):
you know, we're full, which to me is insane considering how
little density there is in California relative to other
places in the world and in, in the United States.
And, and also relative to the demand.
A lot of people actually want tolive here and that's reflected
in home prices. So I I find looking at the kind
(10:12):
of extremes of something to be very useful in understanding
what's possible. Well, let me ask you about one
of those extremes that you put out there.
You know, and Matt Iglesias wrote a whole book about 1
billion Americans, right? And that was his attempt to be
thought provoking. We could, we're not full.
We, we could roughly triple our size.
You've tweeted about, posted about now about a billion
Californians and how we would still have less density than the
(10:35):
city of Paris. Tell me more about how you came
to that number and, and what thereaction was.
Yeah. You know, I was just, I don't
remember exactly what, what, what triggered that.
I was reading something and I was like, oh, like, what if,
what if, right? What if all the developed land
in in California was as dense asParis?
And that's to say like we're notgetting rid of any international
parks. Yeah, you're not building in
(10:56):
Yosemite, this is just previously.
Developed land, yeah, which, youknow, some of it's very rural
and suburban, but still it's, it's used by humans already.
Yeah. I mean, it's basically, you
know, just some quick numbers because I was just curious.
Yeah, I was just very curious, like, you know, what, what would
what would that be, right. And I, I think what it.
(11:21):
And, you know, a lot of people visit, you know, Paris or many
other cities around the world and.
And, and they find certain aspects of them very attractive,
right? The walkability, even the scale,
right. Paris doesn't have that many,
you know, super tall buildings, you know, the, the, the, the
houseman era, you know, height limits.
Everyone has sun. Yeah.
(11:43):
These are things that a lot of people, you know, look at
favorably. And, you know, I'm not saying
California should look like Paris, all of it, but it's
useful to understand like, we'renowhere near full.
Yeah, right. There's just there's tons of
room to support more people. And of course it takes
infrastructure, it takes investment, it takes better
(12:05):
governance. There's a lot that needs to
change, but but the potential isthere.
Yeah, well, I I find it powerfulbecause, you know, people that
have used the political slogan of like, don't Manhattan my ex,
don't Manhattan my Los Angeles, No one ever says don't Paris my,
my LA, right. Like you're saying there's a
desirability factor where no onelooks at Paris and says like,
(12:27):
oh, what an urban hellscape. That seems unlivable.
It's it's in many people's perception, like kind of the
peak of urban living as far as livability and beauty in form.
Yeah. And you know, just as like
another example, if you took, you know, I did the numbers on
the on Italy as a country, the density of Italy as a country
versus the United States. And I think, you know, I forget
(12:49):
the exact number, but it was over.
If the US had the same population density as the
country of Italy, which you don't think of as a very dense
country, yeah, it would be over a billion people.
Wow. Right.
So, so it, you know, this idea that that the United States is
full is just, you know, or, or, or that the world is full even,
right, That there's too many people in the world.
Yeah, it's absurd. Yeah, right there.
(13:11):
There's, you know, technology has allowed humanity to grow and
prosper. And, you know, that's not to say
that we don't need to like, improve how we live in order to
get there. But yeah, it's, it's, you know,
I'm naturally slightly optimistic.
Yeah, well, you have to be a founder, right?
You can't. We did not do this because we
thought it was easy. We because it was easy.
(13:33):
We did it because we thought it was easy, right?
The famous slogan. Yeah, well, I didn't actually
think it was easy. I thought it was.
I thought it was going to be really important.
Yeah. And worth doing.
Yeah, right. There's, you know, it's like how
homes are. It's a single biggest product.
Yeah. That people that it impacts
people's lives. Yeah, right.
For the most part, yeah. Most people, home is the single
(13:53):
biggest product that impacts their lives.
Yeah. And yet there's been relatively
little investment in that area, you know, in over a century.
Yeah, well, we'll shift to talking some of the about some
of the policy constraints in a minute.
But I just, I find that so inspiring the, the possibility
that we can grow, You know, I think for so many Californians
of my generation, I'm a fourth generation Californian.
And when I read history, when I talk to previous generations,
(14:15):
the, the notion of California growing was taken for granted.
It was the place of growth. And that sense of possibility
was, was assumed, it was in the water.
But for our generation, so many people feel just beaten up by
constraints and scarcity and the, and it creates this 0 sum
mentality. And so even just someone putting
that out there who's also building homes and, and stocking
(14:35):
that sense of what's possible inthe long term is really
inspired. So I I really appreciate that.
Thanks. And I want to talk about on that
note, where cover sits within the intersection of California
history. There's so many different
threads that you could pull on for how it relates.
You know, we have this rich legacy of growing of building
homes at a large scale of thingslike, you know, some of the
(14:56):
suburbs that were first developed.
We also have things like Eames designers who created luxury
chairs that are still in a wildly expensive today, but
using mass production tactics inthe post war era.
And we're also here in Gardena close to, you know, in the South
Bay hard tech, the Gundo like you're also in the center of
that too. This.
So how do you see yourself in the context of California
(15:17):
history? Do you see yourself as like I'm,
I'm part of the manufacturing, you know, El Segundo type wave
of people or how do you think ofyourself?
I think, I think part of the so I, I grew up in Toronto, Canada.
(15:39):
So I'm, I'm an immigrant California.
The first time I visited California, I visited a friend
that worked at Apple, OK. And so I immediately was kind of
like immersed in in, in that, you know, this is the the
capital of innovation in the world.
Yeah. And that Silicon Valley, right?
And I I found that it's place inhistory, you know, today this is
(16:05):
a very important place. A lot of there's a lot of things
that start in California that that end up, you know, making
their way across the world. And that was exciting to me just
as a as a place. And then I think Los Angeles is
especially exciting when it comes to, you know, the, like
you said, the history of, of modern architecture and design.
(16:27):
And it has that rich history and, you know, the case study
home program. Yeah.
And, you know, I, I've never liked, you know, bucketing
things too much 'cause at the end of the day, cover is cover.
Yeah. And, you know, it's not trying
to be the, the X of Y Yeah. But it's, it's very much, you
(16:49):
know, at, at this intersection of technology, manufacturing,
design and, and home building, right.
And Los Angeles is a great placeto build that that company.
So obviously, I'm glad you're here.
I love California and I love thefact that people like yourself
are drawn to the state and envision brighter versions of
(17:10):
the future. I think it's the most California
thing possible. But I can imagine, and I'm sure
you maybe face this question in your investor pitch decks and
and investor meetings. Why build here?
Why build an area with such deepconstraints when it comes to
what you can and can't build in terms of cost of living, in
terms of land price and what it takes to, you know, run a
manufacturing facility? Why not go to Dallas where it's
(17:31):
building quickly and you know, the demand can is, is higher?
What were you thinking there? So you know, to to start, right,
the, the approach we had from day one was we have to start in
the high end market because there's a long history of
prefabrication. We're not the first company to
try to build homes in a factory.And there's this perception out
(17:55):
there that homes built in a factory are inferior to homes
built conventionally on site. So from day one, we set out to
change that perception and to prove to the world that this is
not just faster, right, or cheaper, but actually first and
(18:18):
foremost better. And you know, while there's a
lot of things that are very frustrating about building a
company in California and building homes in California, it
is probably the world's best high end residential market.
(18:38):
And so when you combine that with the talent, you know, for
the team that exists here, whether it's design or
engineering or or or OPS, right,this is a really good place to
pull together the talent and to be really close to the customer.
(18:59):
Now when it comes to scaling. Yeah, building big factories.
You know, I, I, I think there needs to be a lot of change for
California to be competitive. There.
Well, let's talk about that. I was talking about this with
Casey Hammer of Terraform Industries.
I was asking him if, you know, if he has this grand ambition of
these massive solar farms all across the country.
And I was saying, well, inevitably you're going to have
to leave California. But even if you didn't have that
(19:20):
grand of a vision, many buildersface this.
You know, we have this wacky backwards industrial policy in
California where we birth the most innovative companies in the
world, yet so many of them due to policy constraints, due to
various governance challenges, feel the need to then leave if
they want to grow into their ambitions.
So I mean, do you think about that and covers lifespan about
obviously you're going to grow into other markets down the
(19:42):
road, but are there any unique factors about California
governance that you would for your own experience tweak in
order to enable cover to scale up to a larger size in the
state? Definitely.
I think I think California needsto be more competitive when it
comes to being probusiness, being pro innovation.
(20:03):
Pro moving fast and and and and it needs to get more competitive
to to, like you said, keep companies that maybe start in
California, keep them scaling here.
It definitely needs to improve. Yeah, well, let's talk about,
you know, you had the viral Twitter.
I guess it wasn't a threat. I guess it was a thread you were
posting, posting everyday your journey of trying to get a
(20:25):
permit to build an Adu in the Palisades after the fire, after
all of this PR blitz of, you know, every leader from the city
up through the president really talking about we're going to cut
red tape. We're going to streamline the
process. And you or someone on the ground
saying, I have a permit in the office and here's what's
happening every day. And a lot of eyeballs went on
that. Tell us about that.
And what I don't know what? What did that reveal to you?
(20:50):
Yeah. I mean, I think the reason for
doing that is, is, is I was seeing a disconnect between or I
anticipated rather a disconnect between what was being said and
what was going to happen. And I wanted to build visibility
on that so that it could be improved.
And, you know, permitting beforethe fires was slow and
(21:14):
unnecessarily. Like there's just too many steps
that don't need to be there. Yeah, right.
If you it's, it's best to not optimize the process that should
be deleted. There are many parts of that
process that should be deleted. Well, tell us what deletion
would look like. I know you've talked about self
certification and others have what what would that practically
look like? So I'm sure that freaks some
people out in the thought if you're not going to permit at.
(21:34):
Home. Well, yeah, so, so, so I think
the permit, most people have very little experience with what
the permit process actually entails, right?
It's not. You fill out some forms, you
submit the plans, and then someone refused it anyway.
I wish it was that simple. And even if that review took a
couple weeks, like that's, that would be a huge improvement.
In LA City specifically and other places do this
differently. You submit your plans, then it
(21:59):
goes to your plan check engineeronce that person gets assigned.
And that reviews actually one ofthe less difficult parts of the
process. And that's the part where
they're reviewing the, the building plans for safety, for,
you know, compliance, all that. And then there's something
called clearances, which in LA City are handled by the
(22:22):
different departments. So you, you then basically have
to take that set of plans and, and then they get put through
their portal to different departments of fire department,
planning department, LADWP, the Department of Water and power.
And depending on your specific situation, it could be, you
(22:43):
know, 8 different departments. Wow.
And they have their own staff, their own paperwork, their own
resources, and you have to chasedown and respond to comments
from these multiple departments.That's actually the part of the
process that takes long. Other cities do what's called a
(23:07):
consolidated review, which is what it sounds like.
It's done, you know, by one team.
Yeah. And that, that, that's the part
that took long. Yeah.
And so, you know, I, yeah, I mean, I was, you know, LADWP
literally lost the application. We had to resubmit it.
And the second time we submittedit, we took video and, and, and
(23:28):
you think that this is some kindof, you know, really worked out
process? It's like, you know, we, we, we,
we printed out the paperwork andwe submitted it in a box in
their hallway. That's the submission process.
So when I hear, you know, I'm all for advancing these
processes using technology, Yeah.
Like I'm like, I love that. Yeah.
But when I hear that we're implementing AI to solve the
(23:50):
problem, it's like that's a few steps ahead from what I'm seeing
on the ground, which is why don't we, why don't we allow
digital submissions and not losepaperwork, right?
And on the computer before you then get it to the AI.
Yeah, get it on the computer andand how about just also, you
know, consolidate the reviews. You don't have multiple
departments. I mean, you know, even if you if
(24:10):
you have AI doing the work at at8 different departments at their
at its own speed, Yeah, it doesn't actually solve the
problem. Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I know there's a lot of policy proposals that people
have spoken about to speed up that process or shot clocks or
self certification. We don't have to get into all of
those, but I thought that was a great post.
And I know you had another post where you were talking about
analyzing the data of speed of Adu approval across counties.
(24:32):
And the, the the range was crazy.
I think it was something like 70days in Fresno to 400 days in
San Francisco. Like, yeah, I can only imagine
being a builder and and dealing with that extreme uncertainty,
particularly as someone who is ruthlessly optimizing speed when
you have this massive factor that is outside of your control.
And it feels like a wild card, Iimagine in some municipalities.
(24:53):
Yeah, totally. And and those are averages,
right. I mean you're looking at 70 day
average versus 400 and somethingday average.
Yeah. So, so it's, there's, there's a
lot of room for improvement and,and Los Angeles is, is on the
upper end of that. And it wasn't quite 400 days,
but I, I I'm pretty sure it was over over 200 days.
Yeah, wow. Well, you know, so let's, let's
(25:13):
think, let's dream a little bit.If you were, if you got a call
tomorrow, Governor Newsom says. Alexis, we're putting you, you
are the czar of housing affordability and speed of
production. You know, so we've talked about
permitting what what are some ofthe other reforms or policy
levers that you would like to see someone pull or talk about
pulling to enable the type of growth in the state and enable
mass production of these homes that people would love to have?
(25:36):
Yeah. So, so I think I, I'd, I'd break
it up into a few categories, right.
You have on the one hand, are you even allowed to build
something which, which I've kindof put into like the zoning side
of things, right? It's, it's, it's, you know, if
you fill out all the paperwork and take all the pain of the
process, can you even get it done right?
And I think there is room to improve that.
(26:01):
Yeah. Yeah, there's room to improve.
That check out our episode with Nolan Gray of Kelly Envy for for
more in depth on the on the zoning stuff.
Yeah, yeah. And then there's the practical
side, which what we've been discussing on the permits.
And I think that's actually a really, really big one because
once someone decides to move forward, their end cost is
(26:22):
especially with the interest rates where where they are
today, a function of time. Yeah, right.
And so the faster you permit something, the the the lower the
cost of whoever's building it. And assuming it's a developer,
right, the the lower the end price they have to sell it at to
make a margin. Yeah, right.
(26:42):
Obviously that's then price is dictated by the demand, right.
But the more the spread between the cost and the the price, the
more developers that go into themarket, yeah, the more homes get
built, right. And then that that that drives
prices down or at least stabilizes them.
Yeah. So I think that's a really big
area. It's like cutting the time and
(27:05):
really just removing unnecessarysteps from the process, right.
You know, we had to, I mean, I'll give you one example, and
I'm sure this was a well-intentioned policy, but
for, for that permit that you mentioned that I was, you know,
just about, we had to submit therather the homeowner had to
submit a four page form basically, you know, more or
(27:29):
less certifying that as part of this process.
We weren't tearing down a home or a living unit that was
previously affordable. It's like the whole thing burned
down. Yeah.
Right. I mean, why make, you know,
thousands of homeowners who losttheir home fill out this four
(27:49):
page and it's like, you know, dense legal terms and.
Not something you just sign on. Yeah, it's dense, right.
And for your, for your average homeowner, I mean, we've seen
this form many times before. So we were able to support and
and guide them through it. We knew it, but it's just we
still have. That's still work.
Yeah, right. That's still a conversation that
really shouldn't need to happen,especially in in in the case of
(28:11):
a fire rebuild. Yeah, right.
So I think there's just, you know, going through the process,
seeing it and really questioningdoes this need like is, is the
benefit of doing this worth the cost?
Yeah. I mean, I'll give you another
example for, you know, most of these builds, there's a check
(28:32):
clearance from the fire department, you know, that's
around the the fire safety of the unit, which is of course
very important, right? One of the checks there is, is
the distance from the nearest fire hydrant and the distance
from the street access. So these are like reasonable
things to check. This takes about 5 minutes to do
and you can pretty much do it from Google Maps.
(28:54):
They have of course, a lot more data at the city on, you know,
where these things are, but you can basically do it from Google
Maps and Street View takes about5 minutes.
We've we've had cases where projects have waited 12 weeks
for that check, right. And you don't need someone with
fire specific knowledge doing that.
That can be again, kind of consolidated review.
So there's just looking at the, you know, I think local leaders,
(29:18):
local voters, local council members need to look at these
things very practically. Yeah.
And first of all, want more homes, not want to appear like
they're going to be more homes, but actually want to build more
homes and then pass changes and delete process that enables
that. Right.
(29:39):
I, I think, I think those are, those are huge.
Yeah, those are huge. I'm curious how you think about,
you know, not while we're on thetopic of policy, like do you
think from Cover's perspective about or engage in any way in
statewide policy debates? Because I know the ability to
build AD us in part like that's one of the the the the Silver
Linings of of housing policy in California in recent years was
(30:01):
these Adu streamlining laws werepassed.
It's enabled a lot of growth. I know a wide large number.
I forget the exact percentage ofLA homes that have been approved
in the last few years are AD us that.
Were risingly high. Yeah, it's shocking.
And that was all premised on a state law that enabled that fix.
And like you were saying earlier, there's other factors,
but zoning and and some of theseapprovals, you know, it, these
are policy decisions and, and politics is messy.
(30:22):
And this is something that in variety of forms, every hard
tech founder who's trying to do something in it with, you know,
actual atoms in the real world faces some type of real world
policy constraint. I mean, how do you think about
those policy risks? Is it something you think about
or you know you got enough to keep your attention here at the
factory that you don't think about it too much?
Yeah. I, I, I, I think as a result of
(30:43):
what we do, I end up thinking about it probably more than I'd
like to. Yeah, it ends up it, it is
important, right? And, you know, I, I really
appreciate it when, when I, you know, when, when I do post about
some of the challenges, sometimes people in government
reach out and they want to learnand they, they, they try to
(31:06):
help, right. And I think it, it starts, it
starts some of these conversations and you get, but
we've got AI think, I think the,the thing that's challenging is
we're really far from a working system that's going to make
housing more abundant in California.
Yeah, right. Like.
(31:28):
We're not a tweak away. We're not a tweak away.
There's a lot of work that needsto go into it and there needs to
be a, a, a true drive and will to make the changes needed to
get the results. Yeah, I think it's like the
results are what matter, right? And if you look at if you look
at the overall housing progress in California, the results
aren't there overall. Yeah, even though there have
(31:51):
been a lot of pro housing policies asked.
And I think this is where like the nuances really matter,
right? SB 9, I think is a really good
example of a of something that looks really good on paper, but
the fact that, you know, a developer basically can't use
it, Yeah, right. Made it almost worthless in
(32:12):
terms of impact, yeah. Now I know there's a study, I
think it was from UMB Law or maybe it was the Turner Center,
forgive me if I'm misattributingit, but it was talking about
the, the on the ground impact ofa lot of these major housing
reform bills, SB-9 and others. And outside of Adu is it is the
measurable impact of a lot of these laws now that we're
several years removed and we should be seeing the impact are,
are woefully below what was hoped for.
(32:33):
And I think it's important that you're talking about it's a
broader movement issue. It's not just we're not a policy
tweak away. And I'm, I'm a policy person.
So I often think in terms of policy tweaks, but I think
that's a really good point that you're hitting on and part of
why there's so much energy around this conversation because
it takes a movement. And that's part of why I admire
Kelly and be so much. It's part of why I admire Grow
(32:55):
SF. And that's part of why in my own
small way, I'm trying to like throw my body into the scrum and
have some conversations around this because we're not just one
silver bullet law away. It's going to take a political
movement to create the politicalincentives that then lead
lawmakers to make the changes that are required.
Because unless you change the underlying political incentives,
(33:16):
that was my whole boss's philosophy, the Old Firm I was
at, political actors act in their own political interest.
And until you change those political incentives, their
behavior will not change. Yeah, well.
Totally. Yeah, sorry, that wasn't a
question. That was me ranting stuff.
I. Agree.
Is it the, the, you know, I think first people need to
actually want more house, more housing and more homes built?
(33:40):
Yeah. That, that needs to be the first
step. And they, they, I I think there
needs to be, you know, a recognition of the economic
realities of not building. And that that's actually the
core of the problem. Yeah.
And it's not, you know, greedy developers, Yeah, right.
Or some other nefarious player, you know, or the, you know,
(34:00):
people buying up less than 1% ofthe single family housing stock.
Like that is not the reason homes are expensive.
Yeah, right. It's, it's really, we're just
not building enough homes. And, and I think until there's a
there's a recognition of that and, and that the solution is to
build more homes, not to subsidize demand.
(34:20):
Yeah. And that's broad.
I think that's step one. Yeah.
Now it's funny, anytime someone brings up the point of greedy
developers, I think like, well, who built your home?
It probably wasn't built by a commune.
Greedy developers as like, you know, you know, of course
nobody's going to build homes tolose money.
Yeah, and it wasn't. Your home wasn't built unless
you're in like an Amish community with a barn raising
(34:43):
your home wasn't built by a Co-op of people who were like
volunteering their Saturday to hang drywall.
You know, these are the people who build homes.
If you like homes then. Let's, you know, I mean, like,
you know, I don't know what the numbers are, but probably 99% of
homes in California have been built by Yeah, yeah, right.
It's it's probably 99%. Yeah, well, you know, one note I
(35:04):
want to end on on every conversation is just asking what
what brings you hope for the future of California and and you
know what, what do you want to see in the next 10 to 20 years?
It can be housing related. It can be, you know, something
broader. Take it whatever direction you
want to take it. I think the this is a place that
(35:26):
has a lot of energy and a lot ofpeople with energy and, and the
desire to make change. And it's a place where there are
people who think big and, and, and make big moves.
And so I think there are the ingredients to make big change.
And then, you know, I think thisis this is not a necessarily a
change, but it's also like it is, it is such a fundamentally
(35:48):
beautiful place that is like worth saving.
Yeah. You know, and, and there's a lot
of people who, you know, maybe, you know, if if it wasn't quite
as nice would have left, that you don't want to stay and, and
make the right changes. And that, that makes me
optimistic, right? Yeah, that that makes me
optimistic. I love that.
And one question I'm gonna tack on and maybe I'll splice it
(36:10):
earlier. I forgot to ask, You know,
you're one of the companies listed as as being associated or
part of the commitment to the California Forever project, the
new city up in Solano County. How did that come about?
Because I think that's such a perfect fit.
I love the team up there and thework that they're doing.
And similarly, it can evokes a sense of inspiration and
possibility of what we can buildin California.
How'd that come about? Yeah.
(36:31):
We, you know, I don't, I don't remember if they reached out or
we reached out at first, but somehow we connected.
Of course. It's a very exciting project.
Yeah, you know, I'm, I, I think when I look at what we do and we
started with single family homesand and then we're doing sorry,
we started with AD us then single family homes.
You know, they're, they're kind of like the next step there,
(36:51):
which is, you know, building communities, which is very
exciting because the things thatyou can do at that kind of
scale, you're innovating beyond the building into kind of, you
know, the the, the fabric between different households.
Yeah, that's really, that's really exciting, right.
So and, and, and I think there'sa lot of alignment in terms of
(37:12):
just how we think about homes differently, right, and the
opportunity to improve standard of living and improve, improve
what a home can be. They are doing the same thing at
an urban scale, which is very exciting.
So, so, you know, I've, I've really enjoyed my, my
(37:34):
conversations with them and, andseeing the site and, and, and,
you know, kind of going back to what we said earlier, when I see
a place like that, I can, I, I, I, I can see what it could be
and it's, it's very exciting. Thank you so much for your time.
It's been a wonderful conversation.
I appreciate being able to. Speak to you.
Thank you.
Los Angeles is especially exciting when it comes to the
history of of modern architecture and design.
We built a set of life-size Legoblocks that you can connect to
make any kind of layout. We recently set the record for
the fastest Adu built in LA cityever.
Technology has allowed humanity to grow and prosper.
(00:21):
I think California needs to be more competitive when it comes
to being probusiness. This is a place that has a lot
of energy and a lot of people with energy and and the design
tired to make change. Hello everyone, and welcome back
to the California Future Societypodcast.
As the time of this recording, it has now been roughly four
months since the devastating fires swept through Los Angeles.
And in those four months, less than 10 permits have been issued
(00:45):
for the rebuilding effort. Now, you may know about this if
you follow the guest today, Alexis Revis on X, where he's
been posting about the challenges of what it takes to
rebuild and how long it took to get a permit.
Many of us recall and mid the horror of the fires, and in the
aftermath, our leaders got on television.
They talked about how they were going to be streamlining the
process, accelerating the rebuild, cutting red tape so
(01:07):
that we could. Rebuild quickly but.
As Alexis was posting about, hisexperience of trying to actually
get a permit was incredibly painful, incredibly slow, and
reflected the broken bureaucratic system that existed
before the fires took place. We talked about why permitting
and building is so slow, especially in places like Los
Angeles. We talked about why he chose to
locate his factory in Los Angeles in the 1st place.
(01:29):
And we talked about his vision for the future of the state.
Can the state continue to grow? Is California full?
So if you care about. Rebuilding in Los Angeles if you
want to see California build more homes in the future and get
out of our housing crisis, or ifyou just want to know more.
About how creative people like. Alexis and his team at Cover are
rethinking how we build homes for the future.
You're going to have a great time listening to this
(01:50):
conversation. Make sure to subscribe as.
Always, wherever you're. Hearing this or at California
futuresociety.com. And with that.
Let's go to Alexis in their factory in Gardena, CA.
Well. Alexis, I'm really excited to do
this. How you doing today?
Good. How are you?
Doing well, yeah. And so for those who don't know
you, you know, tell us about yourself and tell us about your
(02:10):
connection to California and what brought you here to the
state. Sure.
I'm the Co founder and CEO of Cover and at Cover we design,
permit, manufacture and install homes.
We're known for AD us and we just started doing full size
homes as well. Wow, that's so exciting.
Yeah. And we're in one of the AD US
here. It's beautiful.
(02:32):
Like you can see the attention to detail, the quality.
My wife watches a lot of, you know, HGTV home renovation
shows. And so, I don't know, just you
can tell that there's a lot of attention to detail all
throughout the place. Thank you.
Yeah, the, the, the, the approach and what we're trying
to do with cover is take the kind of quality and thought that
(02:52):
normally goes with like really high end construction where you
hire top tier architect, a top tier general contractor and make
that something that's accessibleto a lot more people through
mass production and through, youknow, basically engineering the
product and engineering a system.
And so, you know, it's how do you, how do you make better
homes for everyone? Yeah.
(03:13):
Well, tell me about where you all are at in the trajectory of
your company. I know you compared it to like
the Tesla Roadster phase. It's really exciting that you're
moving into homes. Tell us about the trajectory and
where we currently sit in coverslife.
Sure. So we, you know, basically we
started off with an idea and we started building homes.
(03:37):
Yeah, We sold build iterated anda lot of the iteration was
around how do you make it the whole process go faster both
from a production standpoint andalso from an installation
standpoint on site. Because unlike a lot of other
prefab where you have an entire home or maybe 2 parts of a home
(03:58):
shipped on a trailer, you know, craned into place, the way that
we've approached it is panelized.
So what we build in our factory are wall panels, floor panels,
roof panels. Those are, you know, made with
insulation, with waterproofing, with often even electrical and
plumbing already installed in the panels.
And then those are shipped on site.
But that's a much more complex problem when it comes to how do
(04:19):
you put this together quickly and efficiently.
So a lot of the time has been spent on figuring that out and
developing that system. And now we have a system.
We recently set the record for the fastest Adu built, new Adu
built in LA City ever. Wow.
And that was yeah. Yeah, that was so.
So that was 3 1/2 months from contract signing to certificate
(04:43):
of occupancy, which for which might actually sound slow, like
3 1/2 months doesn't sound that fast.
Permits basically took just under a month, which is the
fastest we've ever done. I'd love for all permits to take
under a month. Yeah.
We'll talk more about that later, yeah.
A lot of that that's unusual. And then we did the site work.
(05:04):
So that's foundation some demolition removal of trees, you
know, basically preparing the the site and then the
installation of the of the coveritself took just about a month,
right? So it's actually the
construction itself was fast andthen a few weeks of paperwork
back, back and forth to get the certificate of occupancy, right.
So if you look at like a bulk ofthe time was actually even on
(05:24):
that record project regulatory related, yeah.
Well, and tell me for context, 31/2 months, when you were first
starting to build, what did thattypical timeline look like?
Where have you come from? Yeah, I mean it, it took, you
know, you know, it, it, it normal construction, just forget
cover. Yeah, yeah, normal construction.
You know, you might be looking at six months just for permit.
(05:48):
Wow, right. Average is actually a bit longer
than that and another year or more for the construction after
the permit, right. So you're looking at like 18
months. So 3 1/2 is way faster.
You know, we were, you know, it would have taken us three months
early on just for the installation if you exclude the
permits, if you exclude the regulatory, it was taking us 3-4
(06:11):
even months to install these at first as we were developing the
system and we got faster and faster and we learned how to,
you know, we redesigned the panels and lots of iteration.
Wow. And tell me about the long term
vision. So you started with AD US,
you're now transitioning to homes when when you're thinking
5-10 years in the future, you'reeven beyond.
What do you see as the long termtrajectory for cover?
(06:32):
So really what it is is we've developed a system, right And we
started with AD us because they're they're kind of the
smallest form factor of a home. Yeah, right, the atomic unit of
a living. Unit.
Yeah, you can't. I mean, you know, anything
smaller is no longer a home. It's a shed.
Yeah, basically. So it's the has a kitchen, it's
the has a bathroom, it's the hasAC.
(06:53):
So it has all of the complexity of a home on a smaller scale.
So that's why we started with ADus.
The division was always to go into homes and now you know
where we're going with this is, is it's basically the same
panels that are made in the production lines.
We've, we've figured out, you can kind of think of it like
we've built a, a life, a set of life-size Lego blocks that you
(07:13):
can connect to make any kind of layout.
So I, I think this is one of thebig differences.
People think, oh, it's made in the factory.
I can only pick one of three with us.
You don't have to, you don't have to compromise and pick, you
know, one of five or one of 10 or one of three layouts.
We build with our set of Lego blocks.
And as long as what you know, we're designing with those Lego
(07:34):
blocks, we can create virtually any kind of layout.
So, you know, you can do it. You know, we're we're literally
in permitting for homes ranging from, you know, Adu sized 800
square foot homes, right, or AD us all the way to 4000 square
foot homes, right with, you know, large, you know, I mean
(07:57):
4000 square foot homes. Yeah.
And they're made from the same Lego blocks?
Yeah, made on the same production line.
And will you be able to build multi family as well multi story
long term eventually? Yeah.
So you. Know we right now the focus is
definitely on on, you know homesand AD us yeah and there's a big
market there yeah. But eventually you know this
(08:19):
same Lego system can expand to do multifamily.
Yeah. Well, I think it's incredibly
cool. And to see the trajectory, the
thoughtfulness, not only in the Adu itself, but I know having
heard you speak before, the thoughtfulness into that system,
into that design process that I,I know will just pay dividends
in the future. It's all very exciting.
So I want to transition. We'll come back to permitting
later on, but I want to talk about your, not just your vision
(08:41):
for the company, but also the way that it's tied into the
vision for your vision for the state.
I know this is something you talk about a lot on X and you
post about. And part of what draws me to
cover is that, you know, this isn't just a vision of nice
homes for some people. It's you talk a lot about the
vision of, of growing the state of expanding, of building
California, not just in a literal sense of a single Adu.
(09:02):
Where did that come from? So I think it comes from from
seeing opportunity to build everywhere, right.
Like when I look at a place, youknow, especially a place with,
with weather and geography and, you know, some, some core
attributes that are as desirableas California's, I see a lot of
(09:23):
opportunity. And I, and I actually see a lot
of opportunity almost anywhere Itravel to and, and see, you
know, I'm like, oh, you could build something there because I,
I like building. Yeah.
So that's, I think that's just natural part of me, right.
But when I look at California specifically, right, I think
it's there. There's a lot of talk around,
(09:47):
you know, we're full, which to me is insane considering how
little density there is in California relative to other
places in the world and in, in the United States.
And, and also relative to the demand.
A lot of people actually want tolive here and that's reflected
in home prices. So I I find looking at the kind
(10:12):
of extremes of something to be very useful in understanding
what's possible. Well, let me ask you about one
of those extremes that you put out there.
You know, and Matt Iglesias wrote a whole book about 1
billion Americans, right? And that was his attempt to be
thought provoking. We could, we're not full.
We, we could roughly triple our size.
You've tweeted about, posted about now about a billion
Californians and how we would still have less density than the
(10:35):
city of Paris. Tell me more about how you came
to that number and, and what thereaction was.
Yeah. You know, I was just, I don't
remember exactly what, what, what triggered that.
I was reading something and I was like, oh, like, what if,
what if, right? What if all the developed land
in in California was as dense asParis?
And that's to say like we're notgetting rid of any international
parks. Yeah, you're not building in
(10:56):
Yosemite, this is just previously.
Developed land, yeah, which, youknow, some of it's very rural
and suburban, but still it's, it's used by humans already.
Yeah. I mean, it's basically, you
know, just some quick numbers because I was just curious.
Yeah, I was just very curious, like, you know, what, what would
what would that be, right. And I, I think what it.
(11:21):
And, you know, a lot of people visit, you know, Paris or many
other cities around the world and.
And, and they find certain aspects of them very attractive,
right? The walkability, even the scale,
right. Paris doesn't have that many,
you know, super tall buildings, you know, the, the, the, the
houseman era, you know, height limits.
Everyone has sun. Yeah.
(11:43):
These are things that a lot of people, you know, look at
favorably. And, you know, I'm not saying
California should look like Paris, all of it, but it's
useful to understand like, we'renowhere near full.
Yeah, right. There's just there's tons of
room to support more people. And of course it takes
infrastructure, it takes investment, it takes better
(12:05):
governance. There's a lot that needs to
change, but but the potential isthere.
Yeah, well, I I find it powerfulbecause, you know, people that
have used the political slogan of like, don't Manhattan my ex,
don't Manhattan my Los Angeles, No one ever says don't Paris my,
my LA, right. Like you're saying there's a
desirability factor where no onelooks at Paris and says like,
(12:27):
oh, what an urban hellscape. That seems unlivable.
It's it's in many people's perception, like kind of the
peak of urban living as far as livability and beauty in form.
Yeah. And you know, just as like
another example, if you took, you know, I did the numbers on
the on Italy as a country, the density of Italy as a country
versus the United States. And I think, you know, I forget
(12:49):
the exact number, but it was over.
If the US had the same population density as the
country of Italy, which you don't think of as a very dense
country, yeah, it would be over a billion people.
Wow. Right.
So, so it, you know, this idea that that the United States is
full is just, you know, or, or, or that the world is full even,
right, That there's too many people in the world.
Yeah, it's absurd. Yeah, right there.
(13:11):
There's, you know, technology has allowed humanity to grow and
prosper. And, you know, that's not to say
that we don't need to like, improve how we live in order to
get there. But yeah, it's, it's, you know,
I'm naturally slightly optimistic.
Yeah, well, you have to be a founder, right?
You can't. We did not do this because we
thought it was easy. We because it was easy.
(13:33):
We did it because we thought it was easy, right?
The famous slogan. Yeah, well, I didn't actually
think it was easy. I thought it was.
I thought it was going to be really important.
Yeah. And worth doing.
Yeah, right. There's, you know, it's like how
homes are. It's a single biggest product.
Yeah. That people that it impacts
people's lives. Yeah, right.
For the most part, yeah. Most people, home is the single
(13:53):
biggest product that impacts their lives.
Yeah. And yet there's been relatively
little investment in that area, you know, in over a century.
Yeah, well, we'll shift to talking some of the about some
of the policy constraints in a minute.
But I just, I find that so inspiring the, the possibility
that we can grow, You know, I think for so many Californians
of my generation, I'm a fourth generation Californian.
And when I read history, when I talk to previous generations,
(14:15):
the, the notion of California growing was taken for granted.
It was the place of growth. And that sense of possibility
was, was assumed, it was in the water.
But for our generation, so many people feel just beaten up by
constraints and scarcity and the, and it creates this 0 sum
mentality. And so even just someone putting
that out there who's also building homes and, and stocking
(14:35):
that sense of what's possible inthe long term is really
inspired. So I I really appreciate that.
Thanks. And I want to talk about on that
note, where cover sits within the intersection of California
history. There's so many different
threads that you could pull on for how it relates.
You know, we have this rich legacy of growing of building
homes at a large scale of thingslike, you know, some of the
(14:56):
suburbs that were first developed.
We also have things like Eames designers who created luxury
chairs that are still in a wildly expensive today, but
using mass production tactics inthe post war era.
And we're also here in Gardena close to, you know, in the South
Bay hard tech, the Gundo like you're also in the center of
that too. This.
So how do you see yourself in the context of California
(15:17):
history? Do you see yourself as like I'm,
I'm part of the manufacturing, you know, El Segundo type wave
of people or how do you think ofyourself?
I think, I think part of the so I, I grew up in Toronto, Canada.
(15:39):
So I'm, I'm an immigrant California.
The first time I visited California, I visited a friend
that worked at Apple, OK. And so I immediately was kind of
like immersed in in, in that, you know, this is the the
capital of innovation in the world.
Yeah. And that Silicon Valley, right?
And I I found that it's place inhistory, you know, today this is
(16:05):
a very important place. A lot of there's a lot of things
that start in California that that end up, you know, making
their way across the world. And that was exciting to me just
as a as a place. And then I think Los Angeles is
especially exciting when it comes to, you know, the, like
you said, the history of, of modern architecture and design.
(16:27):
And it has that rich history and, you know, the case study
home program. Yeah.
And, you know, I, I've never liked, you know, bucketing
things too much 'cause at the end of the day, cover is cover.
Yeah. And, you know, it's not trying
to be the, the X of Y Yeah. But it's, it's very much, you
(16:49):
know, at, at this intersection of technology, manufacturing,
design and, and home building, right.
And Los Angeles is a great placeto build that that company.
So obviously, I'm glad you're here.
I love California and I love thefact that people like yourself
are drawn to the state and envision brighter versions of
(17:10):
the future. I think it's the most California
thing possible. But I can imagine, and I'm sure
you maybe face this question in your investor pitch decks and
and investor meetings. Why build here?
Why build an area with such deepconstraints when it comes to
what you can and can't build in terms of cost of living, in
terms of land price and what it takes to, you know, run a
manufacturing facility? Why not go to Dallas where it's
(17:31):
building quickly and you know, the demand can is, is higher?
What were you thinking there? So you know, to to start, right,
the, the approach we had from day one was we have to start in
the high end market because there's a long history of
prefabrication. We're not the first company to
try to build homes in a factory.And there's this perception out
(17:55):
there that homes built in a factory are inferior to homes
built conventionally on site. So from day one, we set out to
change that perception and to prove to the world that this is
not just faster, right, or cheaper, but actually first and
(18:18):
foremost better. And you know, while there's a
lot of things that are very frustrating about building a
company in California and building homes in California, it
is probably the world's best high end residential market.
(18:38):
And so when you combine that with the talent, you know, for
the team that exists here, whether it's design or
engineering or or or OPS, right,this is a really good place to
pull together the talent and to be really close to the customer.
(18:59):
Now when it comes to scaling. Yeah, building big factories.
You know, I, I, I think there needs to be a lot of change for
California to be competitive. There.
Well, let's talk about that. I was talking about this with
Casey Hammer of Terraform Industries.
I was asking him if, you know, if he has this grand ambition of
these massive solar farms all across the country.
And I was saying, well, inevitably you're going to have
to leave California. But even if you didn't have that
(19:20):
grand of a vision, many buildersface this.
You know, we have this wacky backwards industrial policy in
California where we birth the most innovative companies in the
world, yet so many of them due to policy constraints, due to
various governance challenges, feel the need to then leave if
they want to grow into their ambitions.
So I mean, do you think about that and covers lifespan about
obviously you're going to grow into other markets down the
(19:42):
road, but are there any unique factors about California
governance that you would for your own experience tweak in
order to enable cover to scale up to a larger size in the
state? Definitely.
I think I think California needsto be more competitive when it
comes to being probusiness, being pro innovation.
(20:03):
Pro moving fast and and and and it needs to get more competitive
to to, like you said, keep companies that maybe start in
California, keep them scaling here.
It definitely needs to improve. Yeah, well, let's talk about,
you know, you had the viral Twitter.
I guess it wasn't a threat. I guess it was a thread you were
posting, posting everyday your journey of trying to get a
(20:25):
permit to build an Adu in the Palisades after the fire, after
all of this PR blitz of, you know, every leader from the city
up through the president really talking about we're going to cut
red tape. We're going to streamline the
process. And you or someone on the ground
saying, I have a permit in the office and here's what's
happening every day. And a lot of eyeballs went on
that. Tell us about that.
And what I don't know what? What did that reveal to you?
(20:50):
Yeah. I mean, I think the reason for
doing that is, is, is I was seeing a disconnect between or I
anticipated rather a disconnect between what was being said and
what was going to happen. And I wanted to build visibility
on that so that it could be improved.
And, you know, permitting beforethe fires was slow and
(21:14):
unnecessarily. Like there's just too many steps
that don't need to be there. Yeah, right.
If you it's, it's best to not optimize the process that should
be deleted. There are many parts of that
process that should be deleted. Well, tell us what deletion
would look like. I know you've talked about self
certification and others have what what would that practically
look like? So I'm sure that freaks some
people out in the thought if you're not going to permit at.
(21:34):
Home. Well, yeah, so, so, so I think
the permit, most people have very little experience with what
the permit process actually entails, right?
It's not. You fill out some forms, you
submit the plans, and then someone refused it anyway.
I wish it was that simple. And even if that review took a
couple weeks, like that's, that would be a huge improvement.
In LA City specifically and other places do this
differently. You submit your plans, then it
(21:59):
goes to your plan check engineeronce that person gets assigned.
And that reviews actually one ofthe less difficult parts of the
process. And that's the part where
they're reviewing the, the building plans for safety, for,
you know, compliance, all that. And then there's something
called clearances, which in LA City are handled by the
(22:22):
different departments. So you, you then basically have
to take that set of plans and, and then they get put through
their portal to different departments of fire department,
planning department, LADWP, the Department of Water and power.
And depending on your specific situation, it could be, you
(22:43):
know, 8 different departments. Wow.
And they have their own staff, their own paperwork, their own
resources, and you have to chasedown and respond to comments
from these multiple departments.That's actually the part of the
process that takes long. Other cities do what's called a
(23:07):
consolidated review, which is what it sounds like.
It's done, you know, by one team.
Yeah. And that, that, that's the part
that took long. Yeah.
And so, you know, I, yeah, I mean, I was, you know, LADWP
literally lost the application. We had to resubmit it.
And the second time we submittedit, we took video and, and, and
(23:28):
you think that this is some kindof, you know, really worked out
process? It's like, you know, we, we, we,
we printed out the paperwork andwe submitted it in a box in
their hallway. That's the submission process.
So when I hear, you know, I'm all for advancing these
processes using technology, Yeah.
Like I'm like, I love that. Yeah.
But when I hear that we're implementing AI to solve the
(23:50):
problem, it's like that's a few steps ahead from what I'm seeing
on the ground, which is why don't we, why don't we allow
digital submissions and not losepaperwork, right?
And on the computer before you then get it to the AI.
Yeah, get it on the computer andand how about just also, you
know, consolidate the reviews. You don't have multiple
departments. I mean, you know, even if you if
(24:10):
you have AI doing the work at at8 different departments at their
at its own speed, Yeah, it doesn't actually solve the
problem. Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I know there's a lot of policy proposals that people
have spoken about to speed up that process or shot clocks or
self certification. We don't have to get into all of
those, but I thought that was a great post.
And I know you had another post where you were talking about
analyzing the data of speed of Adu approval across counties.
(24:32):
And the, the the range was crazy.
I think it was something like 70days in Fresno to 400 days in
San Francisco. Like, yeah, I can only imagine
being a builder and and dealing with that extreme uncertainty,
particularly as someone who is ruthlessly optimizing speed when
you have this massive factor that is outside of your control.
And it feels like a wild card, Iimagine in some municipalities.
(24:53):
Yeah, totally. And and those are averages,
right. I mean you're looking at 70 day
average versus 400 and somethingday average.
Yeah. So, so it's, there's, there's a
lot of room for improvement and,and Los Angeles is, is on the
upper end of that. And it wasn't quite 400 days,
but I, I I'm pretty sure it was over over 200 days.
Yeah, wow. Well, you know, so let's, let's
(25:13):
think, let's dream a little bit.If you were, if you got a call
tomorrow, Governor Newsom says. Alexis, we're putting you, you
are the czar of housing affordability and speed of
production. You know, so we've talked about
permitting what what are some ofthe other reforms or policy
levers that you would like to see someone pull or talk about
pulling to enable the type of growth in the state and enable
mass production of these homes that people would love to have?
(25:36):
Yeah. So, so I think I, I'd, I'd break
it up into a few categories, right.
You have on the one hand, are you even allowed to build
something which, which I've kindof put into like the zoning side
of things, right? It's, it's, it's, you know, if
you fill out all the paperwork and take all the pain of the
process, can you even get it done right?
And I think there is room to improve that.
(26:01):
Yeah. Yeah, there's room to improve.
That check out our episode with Nolan Gray of Kelly Envy for for
more in depth on the on the zoning stuff.
Yeah, yeah. And then there's the practical
side, which what we've been discussing on the permits.
And I think that's actually a really, really big one because
once someone decides to move forward, their end cost is
(26:22):
especially with the interest rates where where they are
today, a function of time. Yeah, right.
And so the faster you permit something, the the the lower the
cost of whoever's building it. And assuming it's a developer,
right, the the lower the end price they have to sell it at to
make a margin. Yeah, right.
(26:42):
Obviously that's then price is dictated by the demand, right.
But the more the spread between the cost and the the price, the
more developers that go into themarket, yeah, the more homes get
built, right. And then that that that drives
prices down or at least stabilizes them.
Yeah. So I think that's a really big
area. It's like cutting the time and
(27:05):
really just removing unnecessarysteps from the process, right.
You know, we had to, I mean, I'll give you one example, and
I'm sure this was a well-intentioned policy, but
for, for that permit that you mentioned that I was, you know,
just about, we had to submit therather the homeowner had to
submit a four page form basically, you know, more or
(27:29):
less certifying that as part of this process.
We weren't tearing down a home or a living unit that was
previously affordable. It's like the whole thing burned
down. Yeah.
Right. I mean, why make, you know,
thousands of homeowners who losttheir home fill out this four
(27:49):
page and it's like, you know, dense legal terms and.
Not something you just sign on. Yeah, it's dense, right.
And for your, for your average homeowner, I mean, we've seen
this form many times before. So we were able to support and
and guide them through it. We knew it, but it's just we
still have. That's still work.
Yeah, right. That's still a conversation that
really shouldn't need to happen,especially in in in the case of
(28:11):
a fire rebuild. Yeah, right.
So I think there's just, you know, going through the process,
seeing it and really questioningdoes this need like is, is the
benefit of doing this worth the cost?
Yeah. I mean, I'll give you another
example for, you know, most of these builds, there's a check
(28:32):
clearance from the fire department, you know, that's
around the the fire safety of the unit, which is of course
very important, right? One of the checks there is, is
the distance from the nearest fire hydrant and the distance
from the street access. So these are like reasonable
things to check. This takes about 5 minutes to do
and you can pretty much do it from Google Maps.
(28:54):
They have of course, a lot more data at the city on, you know,
where these things are, but you can basically do it from Google
Maps and Street View takes about5 minutes.
We've we've had cases where projects have waited 12 weeks
for that check, right. And you don't need someone with
fire specific knowledge doing that.
That can be again, kind of consolidated review.
So there's just looking at the, you know, I think local leaders,
(29:18):
local voters, local council members need to look at these
things very practically. Yeah.
And first of all, want more homes, not want to appear like
they're going to be more homes, but actually want to build more
homes and then pass changes and delete process that enables
that. Right.
(29:39):
I, I think, I think those are, those are huge.
Yeah, those are huge. I'm curious how you think about,
you know, not while we're on thetopic of policy, like do you
think from Cover's perspective about or engage in any way in
statewide policy debates? Because I know the ability to
build AD us in part like that's one of the the the the Silver
Linings of of housing policy in California in recent years was
(30:01):
these Adu streamlining laws werepassed.
It's enabled a lot of growth. I know a wide large number.
I forget the exact percentage ofLA homes that have been approved
in the last few years are AD us that.
Were risingly high. Yeah, it's shocking.
And that was all premised on a state law that enabled that fix.
And like you were saying earlier, there's other factors,
but zoning and and some of theseapprovals, you know, it, these
are policy decisions and, and politics is messy.
(30:22):
And this is something that in variety of forms, every hard
tech founder who's trying to do something in it with, you know,
actual atoms in the real world faces some type of real world
policy constraint. I mean, how do you think about
those policy risks? Is it something you think about
or you know you got enough to keep your attention here at the
factory that you don't think about it too much?
Yeah. I, I, I, I think as a result of
(30:43):
what we do, I end up thinking about it probably more than I'd
like to. Yeah, it ends up it, it is
important, right? And, you know, I, I really
appreciate it when, when I, you know, when, when I do post about
some of the challenges, sometimes people in government
reach out and they want to learnand they, they, they try to
(31:06):
help, right. And I think it, it starts, it
starts some of these conversations and you get, but
we've got AI think, I think the,the thing that's challenging is
we're really far from a working system that's going to make
housing more abundant in California.
Yeah, right. Like.
(31:28):
We're not a tweak away. We're not a tweak away.
There's a lot of work that needsto go into it and there needs to
be a, a, a true drive and will to make the changes needed to
get the results. Yeah, I think it's like the
results are what matter, right? And if you look at if you look
at the overall housing progress in California, the results
aren't there overall. Yeah, even though there have
(31:51):
been a lot of pro housing policies asked.
And I think this is where like the nuances really matter,
right? SB 9, I think is a really good
example of a of something that looks really good on paper, but
the fact that, you know, a developer basically can't use
it, Yeah, right. Made it almost worthless in
(32:12):
terms of impact, yeah. Now I know there's a study, I
think it was from UMB Law or maybe it was the Turner Center,
forgive me if I'm misattributingit, but it was talking about
the, the on the ground impact ofa lot of these major housing
reform bills, SB-9 and others. And outside of Adu is it is the
measurable impact of a lot of these laws now that we're
several years removed and we should be seeing the impact are,
are woefully below what was hoped for.
(32:33):
And I think it's important that you're talking about it's a
broader movement issue. It's not just we're not a policy
tweak away. And I'm, I'm a policy person.
So I often think in terms of policy tweaks, but I think
that's a really good point that you're hitting on and part of
why there's so much energy around this conversation because
it takes a movement. And that's part of why I admire
Kelly and be so much. It's part of why I admire Grow
(32:55):
SF. And that's part of why in my own
small way, I'm trying to like throw my body into the scrum and
have some conversations around this because we're not just one
silver bullet law away. It's going to take a political
movement to create the politicalincentives that then lead
lawmakers to make the changes that are required.
Because unless you change the underlying political incentives,
(33:16):
that was my whole boss's philosophy, the Old Firm I was
at, political actors act in their own political interest.
And until you change those political incentives, their
behavior will not change. Yeah, well.
Totally. Yeah, sorry, that wasn't a
question. That was me ranting stuff.
I. Agree.
Is it the, the, you know, I think first people need to
actually want more house, more housing and more homes built?
(33:40):
Yeah. That, that needs to be the first
step. And they, they, I I think there
needs to be, you know, a recognition of the economic
realities of not building. And that that's actually the
core of the problem. Yeah.
And it's not, you know, greedy developers, Yeah, right.
Or some other nefarious player, you know, or the, you know,
(34:00):
people buying up less than 1% ofthe single family housing stock.
Like that is not the reason homes are expensive.
Yeah, right. It's, it's really, we're just
not building enough homes. And, and I think until there's a
there's a recognition of that and, and that the solution is to
build more homes, not to subsidize demand.
(34:20):
Yeah. And that's broad.
I think that's step one. Yeah.
Now it's funny, anytime someone brings up the point of greedy
developers, I think like, well, who built your home?
It probably wasn't built by a commune.
Greedy developers as like, you know, you know, of course
nobody's going to build homes tolose money.
Yeah, and it wasn't. Your home wasn't built unless
you're in like an Amish community with a barn raising
(34:43):
your home wasn't built by a Co-op of people who were like
volunteering their Saturday to hang drywall.
You know, these are the people who build homes.
If you like homes then. Let's, you know, I mean, like,
you know, I don't know what the numbers are, but probably 99% of
homes in California have been built by Yeah, yeah, right.
It's it's probably 99%. Yeah, well, you know, one note I
(35:04):
want to end on on every conversation is just asking what
what brings you hope for the future of California and and you
know what, what do you want to see in the next 10 to 20 years?
It can be housing related. It can be, you know, something
broader. Take it whatever direction you
want to take it. I think the this is a place that
(35:26):
has a lot of energy and a lot ofpeople with energy and, and the
desire to make change. And it's a place where there are
people who think big and, and, and make big moves.
And so I think there are the ingredients to make big change.
And then, you know, I think thisis this is not a necessarily a
change, but it's also like it is, it is such a fundamentally
(35:48):
beautiful place that is like worth saving.
Yeah. You know, and, and there's a lot
of people who, you know, maybe, you know, if if it wasn't quite
as nice would have left, that you don't want to stay and, and
make the right changes. And that, that makes me
optimistic, right? Yeah, that that makes me
optimistic. I love that.
And one question I'm gonna tack on and maybe I'll splice it
(36:10):
earlier. I forgot to ask, You know,
you're one of the companies listed as as being associated or
part of the commitment to the California Forever project, the
new city up in Solano County. How did that come about?
Because I think that's such a perfect fit.
I love the team up there and thework that they're doing.
And similarly, it can evokes a sense of inspiration and
possibility of what we can buildin California.
How'd that come about? Yeah.
(36:31):
We, you know, I don't, I don't remember if they reached out or
we reached out at first, but somehow we connected.
Of course. It's a very exciting project.
Yeah, you know, I'm, I, I think when I look at what we do and we
started with single family homesand and then we're doing sorry,
we started with AD us then single family homes.
You know, they're, they're kind of like the next step there,
(36:51):
which is, you know, building communities, which is very
exciting because the things thatyou can do at that kind of
scale, you're innovating beyond the building into kind of, you
know, the the, the fabric between different households.
Yeah, that's really, that's really exciting, right.
So and, and, and I think there'sa lot of alignment in terms of
(37:12):
just how we think about homes differently, right, and the
opportunity to improve standard of living and improve, improve
what a home can be. They are doing the same thing at
an urban scale, which is very exciting.
So, so, you know, I've, I've really enjoyed my, my
(37:34):
conversations with them and, andseeing the site and, and, and,
you know, kind of going back to what we said earlier, when I see
a place like that, I can, I, I, I, I can see what it could be
and it's, it's very exciting. Thank you so much for your time.
It's been a wonderful conversation.
I appreciate being able to. Speak to you.
Thank you.
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