April 19, 2025 • 27 mins
What's the difference between elder law and estate planning? According to attorney Bill Nolan, it's about timing and focus. While estate planning looks toward what happens after death, elder law concentrates on protecting assets and ensuring proper care while you're still alive but potentially unable to manage your own affairs.
This eye-opening conversation reveals why having a simple power of attorney could save your family thousands of dollars and countless headaches. As Nolan explains, even married couples need these documents – especially when it comes to accessing individual retirement accounts during a health crisis. Without proper planning, a spouse might be unable to use funds to pay for necessary care, despite decades of marriage and joint financial planning.
We explore the concept of "red flag moments" – those life changes that should trigger a conversation with an elder law attorney but often don't. From selling a family home to experiencing a health scare, these pivotal moments represent opportunities to protect assets that might otherwise be vulnerable to Medicaid spend-down requirements. The discussion also covers special needs planning, how to navigate blended families with multiple sets of adult children, and why dying without a will costs heirs approximately ten times more than creating proper documentation.
Perhaps most surprising is learning how affordable preventive legal planning can be compared to the alternatives. A power of attorney costs about one-tenth what a conservatorship would, while proper asset protection strategies can preserve a lifetime of savings that might otherwise go to nursing home costs. With free consultations and fixed-fee services, there's little reason to postpone this critical planning.
Don't wait until you're facing a crisis to get your legal affairs in order. Schedule a conversation with an elder law attorney today to protect yourself and provide your loved ones with clear guidance when they need it most.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I'm Bill Nolan.
My firm is the AlabamaEldercare Law Firm.
I've been a lawyer since 82.
This particular firm has beenin operation since 2006, when I
for lack of a better way todescribe it started specializing
in elder law.
It's a separate branch of thelaw here in Alabama and it's
(00:30):
focused on helping seniors andthe adult children of seniors
manage their care and managetheir assets as their condition
begins to decline and theirdecision-making ability might
deteriorate.
That's really what elder law isall about.
We're in Birmingham, alabama,but we work all over the state
of Alabama.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Great, awesome.
And I think that people getconfused if they're not in this
business and haven't experiencedthis between estate planning
and elder law.
Maybe you could clear up theconfusion there a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, that comes up a good bit between elder law and
estate planning, because mostpeople are roughly or vaguely
familiar with the term estateplanning and the truth is
there's a good bit of overlap.
There's a saying that all elderlaw attorneys are estate
planning attorneys, but not allestate planning attorneys are
elder law attorneys.
(01:24):
Estate planning typically gotits beginnings in the area of
wealthy people wanting topreserve and pass along their
wealth to the next generation,so the focus tended to be on
more well-to-do individuals andhelping them avoid taxes.
And that's still the driver fora lot of estate planning firms
is what can we do to avoid taxes?
(01:45):
Elder law typically focuses onthe here and now, not what
happens after death.
We're focused on how can wemake sure this 85-year-old
veteran is able to protect andpreserve what he's been
fortunate enough to accumulateover his lifetime.
Who cares what happens withtaxes after he's gone.
We want to make sure his assetsare here to take care of him
(02:07):
and we want to make sure theright people are making those
decisions.
And are there any benefits hemight be entitled to, like
veterans benefits or Medicaidbenefits?
How can we help him pay fornursing home care?
Estate planning attorneys focusmore on the higher wealth
individuals and they canself-pay for nursing home care.
They don't need veteransbenefits.
Our focus tends to be on peopleof more modest means.
(02:29):
That's the big singledifference, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And, having talked to many elder law attorneys over
the years, I think there are somany things that we don't do in
advance of needing care.
What are some of those thingsthat you would recommend that
anybody like I'm talking powerof attorney?
What are those things that wedon't do in advance of needing
care?
What are some of those thingsthat you would recommend that
anybody like I'm talking powerof attorney?
What are those things that weshould have set up before
there's a crisis?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I hate to have a client come inand say I wish somebody had
told me that before now.
You know that means somebodywasn't doing their job.
Now it may mean that the clientwas too busy and didn't think
about asking the right questions.
We try to do seminars andpresentations and talk to church
groups and senior centers andmake people aware.
Now what's that saying?
You can lead a horse to water,we can talk to a blue in the
(03:13):
face, but if people don't takeaction there's not much we can
do about it.
You're right.
Having a good power of attorneyin place will allow your kids to
avoid having to go through anexpensive and time-consuming
conservatorship in the future.
It's a lot cheaper to have apower of attorney by about a
factor of 10 or 15 than it wouldbe to go through a
(03:34):
conservatorship.
You're not really giving upanything and you're getting
about 95% of the benefit rightthere.
Another thing you can do isthere's a type of deed we have
in Alabama.
Some states have them by otherterms.
We call them life estate deeds,some states call them ladybird
deeds, and the idea there is aperson can hang on to their home
(03:55):
while they're alive buttransferred immediately at death
, like having a beneficiary on adeed.
They're great tools, veryflexible, but you have to put
them in place while you're stillalive and have capacity.
They avoid probate and theyalso avoid a Medicaid recovery
lien, but people don't knowabout that and they have to be
in place for five years and aperson has to have capacity to
(04:18):
sign that deed in the firstplace.
So that's a typical example ofsomething that people don't
really know about but couldbenefit greatly from if they
learned about it.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Avoiding probate, anything you can do to avoid
probate or a long drawn outprobate anything you can arrange
in advance.
I find that the struggle forthe kids especially if there's a
lot of siblings involved, iffamily dynamics aren't that
great having this all decided inadvance helps avoid a lot of I
(04:49):
don't know disagreements anddysfunction among the kids.
And really, even if it's just asingle child like I'm, an only
child knowing what my mom wantsnow or my dad wants now is very
helpful to me.
Not having to make thatdecision when they're on a
ventilator and can't talk.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
And as an only child youshouldn't have to jump through
the same hoops to transfer yourparents' assets to you that a
family with five kids have tojump through.
But unfortunately the lawdoesn't distinguish there, so
you still have to go through thesame formalities, the same
delays, the same.
We call them creditor claimsperiods in Alabama.
You don't really have a choice,but your parents have the
(05:32):
choice.
They could avoid that if theychoose to avoid probate.
And people don't realize thatfor some reason people think I
don't need a will because mykids know what they're going to
get, or I don't need a willbecause my estate's not big
enough.
Or I don't need a will becausemy kids know what they're going
to get.
Or I don't need a will becausemy estate's not big enough, or I
(05:53):
don't need a will because it'sgoing to go to them when I die
anyway.
And the fact is that dyingwithout a will could cost your
kids about 10 times what youpaying for a will would cost you
.
So is that wise moneymanagement?
They think they're saving moneyby not having a will, but
they're actually spending 10times as much money by exposing
their kids to intestate probate.
They don't realize that.
Another one of the simple stuff.
I wish somebody had told methat before now.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Oh, absolutely, and so if you have a will, things
still have to go through probate, but it's a much more efficient
process because everything'sspelled out and the judge's
pretty much going to go withwhat's there.
That's right.
No one's arguing with the will.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
We say that probate isn't avoided, but a will is a
fast track through the process.
You still have to go throughthe process, still have to pay
the fees and wait the delays,but you don't have to jump
through nearly as many hoops asyou would if you died without a
will.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And what about avoiding probate altogether?
That would mean having somekind of trust, right.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Generally, a trust is the easiest way to avoid
probate entirely, becauseeverything is owned by the trust
and the trust isn't affected byyour death.
The assets still belong to thetrust, and the language of the
trust would say after the trustor where the person who creates
the trust has died, the trustee.
The language of the trust wouldsay after the trust or where
the person who creates the trusthas died, the trustee the
person managing it is todistribute the assets this way,
(07:12):
and that's a typical revocableliving trust.
But a lot of families don'teven need the complexity or
expense of a trust and here I amcutting into my own income,
because lawyers make a lot ofmoney doing trust.
But the reality is mostfamilies have two buckets of
assets.
They have their investmentretirement account investment
(07:33):
assets and they have their realestate.
Everything else is prettynominal.
Investments typically havebeneficiaries on those my spouse
first and my kids equal.
Iras have spouse first, kidsequal.
Those are going to pass outsideof probate regardless, so you
don't have to worry about those.
The house, though, is the oneasset that sometimes drags the
family back into probate, and ifyou were to use the life estate
(07:56):
deed or the ladybird deed, insome states it avoids probate on
the house and it's a tenth thecost of a trust.
So in many situations we seethat we can rely on the
beneficiary designation on theirinvestments already and just
use a life estate deed insteadof going through all the
paperwork of a trust, and stillaccomplish the same end result.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, I think that's whatever you can do to minimize
what's going to happen after youpass is so helpful for your
kids.
Let me ask you a couple ofquestions that come to mind
about, let's say, let's talkabout power of attorney, let's
rewind on that again and wife,and let's say the husband gets
(08:50):
sick, does the spouse need tohave power of attorney still, or
she just?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
automatically gets to make the decisions?
That's a great question and theassumption is why do I need a
power of attorney for my spouse?
And you're right, most assetsin a married couple, many
married couples, own theirassets jointly the bank accounts
either, or the investmentseither, or houses, joint tenancy
, right of survivorship.
So the well spouse can managethose assets just fine without a
(09:15):
power of attorney at all.
But they don't think about theone big asset, the IRA or the
401k.
They're called IRAs for areason they're individual
retirement accounts.
They're not owned by a couple.
They're not owned by him or her, they're owned by him.
So he's got this big IRA sittingthere.
He's the only person who hasany say-so over that IRA.
(09:36):
He goes into the nursing home.
It's going to cost $8,000 amonth.
Wouldn't it be great if thewife could use his IRA to pay
for his nursing home care?
But if she doesn't have a powerof attorney, she can't touch it
.
She can call his investmentadvisor and complain all day
long and the investment advisorgoes sorry, I can't help you.
He's the only one who can makethat decision and he's had a
(09:56):
stroke and can't speak.
I better do this for you.
So yes, I think it makes sensefor even between married couples
for there to be a power ofattorney in place.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I would agree.
And health care too, becausethat way at least it's in
writing and, if your childrenaren't sure, you're the spouse
trying to make these decisionshaving a power of attorney for
health care and also having thatliving will which tells
everyone what I want I don'twant to be on a ventilator, I do
want to be on a ventilator.
Or when should we make thatdecision that I don't want to be
on a ventilator, I do want tobe on a ventilator.
Or when should we make thatdecision that I don't want to
live anymore?
Those are hard decisions tomake, even for a spouse
(10:30):
sometimes.
And having all of that put inplace and we haven't talked
about living wills but that'sanother thing that you can.
I'm sure you help with that allthe time, putting together a
living will.
I know hospitals can help withthat too.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
We tell people that having a will alone is really
not being well protected.
A will takes care of your stuffafter you're gone, which is nice
, but it doesn't do you any goodwhile you're alive.
The health care directives wecall them health care directives
here in Alabama and the powerof attorney are there to protect
you while you're alive butunable to take care of yourself,
and in some sense that's moreimportant than what happens to
(11:05):
your stuff after you're gone.
So we explain to people what ahealth care directive is
designed to accomplish, that is,to make sure your wishes are
honored and carried out, notsomebody else's wishes.
You do have to make a decision,but it's a gift to your kids
and your spouse.
If you make that decision, youare relieving your kids from
(11:26):
having to make that samedecision, and nobody wants to
make that decision for anybodyelse.
If you can make it for yourselfand all they have to do is
carry out your wishes, it's awhole different dynamic than
having them sit there, sweat,have to justify their decision
to the siblings and all thattheir decision to the siblings
and all that.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, feeling guilty in here is one thing, but having
to face a sibling that may notagree or who hasn't been around
for 10 years and then, suddenlyreappears and says, oh no, yeah,
those are the hard the thingsthat I think, just having been
around the block for a while anddoing a lot of things with
seniors and families been aroundthe block for a while and doing
(12:09):
a lot of things- with seniorsand families.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
people come out of the woodwork when someone gets
sick.
A lot of history betweenbrothers and sisters or sisters
and sisters will rear its uglyhead at that point when
everybody's under stress andmaybe there's assets to be
divided up and decisions to bemade.
It's amazing, they say, younever truly get to know somebody
until you go through theprobate process with them.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, that can be true.
Yeah, absolutely, I can imaginethat.
But, yeah, but.
So planning ahead number onethat's really what everybody
should be doing, and evenfuneral planning, which is not
exactly a part of elder lawplanning, but having a funeral
plan in place is so helpful.
We see a lot of times peopleobviously pass unexpectedly.
(12:54):
It doesn't always happen whenyou're expecting it, and so
having plans in place can alsohelp with that entire process.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I think something people don't realize or take
into consideration is, in atypical marriage first marriage
kids are both your kids.
It's fairly straightforwardmaking plans.
But when you have a step kidinvolved, you have a second
marriage or a third marriage.
You have adult children whodidn't grow up together coming
together and you don't knowwhich spouse is going to die
(13:24):
first.
You don't know how much time isgoing to go by between the
first and the second death.
You don't know whose kids aregoing to stay involved or what
influence they might have on thesurviving spouse.
You don't know if the survivingspouse is going to marry yet
another time.
There's so many questions thatcan happen and oftentimes the
adult daughter has been makingdecisions for her mom or her dad
(13:46):
after the death of the firstspouse and now they remarry and
this new woman or new man swoopsin and starts making all these
decisions.
The dynamics can be all overthe map and usually they're not
good dynamics.
So helping families who are ina second or third marriage
understand all of the hurdles,bumps in the road that they
(14:07):
might encounter is one of thethings that we try to help with.
And you know, usually in asecond marriage the husband and
wife think oh, we love eachother and everybody's going to
get along just peachy keen.
And I get to see that happen.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think it's.
I can use myself as an examplebecause I'm not telling on
somebody else, but what I cansay is that my mother and her
second husband have done anexcellent job because they were
married when all of us kids wereadults.
So we didn't know each otheruntil they got married and we
don't live close together.
So they live in Kansas and Ilive in Missouri and our parents
(14:42):
live in North Carolina.
None of us are close by.
So it's awesome that theirfather has a trust with
everything spelled out what goesto his wife, what goes to his
kids, and my mom has a trust andeverything is spelled out what
goes to me, what happened?
Can she?
And in his trust he talks aboutthe house Can she live in the
house after he passes, if it'sin his name?
(15:03):
And I don't know all the details, but I do know that they've
done a really good job of makingsure that when the time comes
that all of us kids are going tohave to come together, probably
one way or another, buteverybody knows exactly what's
going to happen for the mostpart, and that's been something
that I'm very grateful for onfor both of them to have done
(15:26):
that and make sure thateverybody's treated fairly and
treated the way that they wantthem and we get along.
But we also know that they'vebeen good planners.
You don't come across that veryoften.
We just don't want to have thatconversation.
We don't want to have that talk.
It's rough.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
It's rough, but it's so important to have it To avoid
all sorts of negatives down theroad, and I wish more people
would plan like your mom and herhusband had planned.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I think it's, I think he he might.
He's an engineer by trade, so Ithink he's a planner, so I
think that might be part of it,but it is definitely a good
thing and that still doesn't.
They've had a few illnesses,surgeries as they get older, and
one of us takes that trip andgoes to North Carolina and
reports back to everybody else.
(16:12):
How's everybody doing?
And they were all good abouttrying to be involved, but they
definitely.
But there's going to come atime when all three of us are
going to have to come togetherand figure some stuff out, and
we're aware of that.
But yeah, planning ahead hashelped tremendously.
What would be planning ahead isprobably your greatest piece of
advice.
But when people come to you andthey maybe they are facing a
(16:36):
crisis, what are some of thethings that you can do that
really help them move to thenext step or get their ducks in
a row?
What's your process in youroffice?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Well, I think once somebody comes to us, we don't
want to drag the process outunnecessarily.
It takes people years to cometo the decision.
I want to go finally get a will.
People have all sorts of ideasthat once I sign my will I'm
going to drop dead, which is nottrue, but people think that.
So we don't want to delay theprocess.
(17:06):
There's a lawyer in BirminghamI won't name names, but this
lawyer takes forever to get adocument out and I don't know
why a person would do that.
If a person's made this toughdecision to get their documents
in place, we should doeverything possible to satisfy
that person's desire as quicklyas we can.
That's our goal.
We also don't see it just as atask.
(17:30):
We see it as a step tosomething else.
It's a step towards gettingeverything in place.
We ask everybody that comes inare you a veteran?
What difference does that make?
It makes a lot of difference.
You could have benefits, oryour spouse could have benefits
that you might not know about.
So let's explore those benefits.
What's your financial situation?
(17:51):
I don't necessarily need toknow the details if I'm doing a
simple estate plan, but if we'rehelping somebody qualify for
Medicaid now or down the road.
It would be helpful to tellthem what they could do now to
rearrange those assets so thatthey could qualify sooner rather
than later.
What about their familysituations?
Do they have kids scatteredaround?
Who do you want to makedecisions for you?
(18:12):
Who do you want to have backups?
What about grandkids?
Do you want to help them or not?
Those are details that we tryto explore.
So we try to get into theirfamily much more than they
probably think we ought to.
But we're doing it for a reasonand in fact here's a quick story
.
This was years ago.
This is a different checklist,but we ask everybody to fill out
(18:34):
a checklist before they comesee us.
So the first meeting is notjust us asking questions.
We have all the answers and wecan go from there.
We had, on our veteranschecklist, a question can the
veteran use the restroomunassisted or not?
Because that would go towardshis activities of daily living,
which would allow him to qualifyfor aid and attendance benefit.
Yep.
So a financial advisor hadrecommended his client come see
(18:58):
us.
We sent him a checklist and thefinancial advisor called me
back after we'd sent him thechecklist and he was laughing
and he said my client called meup after he got your checklist
and he said what business is itthat large to know whether I can
go to the bathroom or not?
And so we took that questionoff.
We thought we could deal withthat in the moment rather than
to create that situation.
(19:19):
But again, it's just an exampleof us asking for more
information than possibly peopleexpect us to need to know.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, that's great.
Coming into the meetingprepared does help move things
along quickly and I know there'sa lot of programs and services
from veterans benefits toMedicaid all kinds of stuff and
the state of Alabama probablyhas a few things out there that
they don't even know that theycould qualify for that could be
immensely helpful in the eventthat they're needing care and VA
(19:49):
aid and attendance pensionbenefit is one of those way over
under underutilized programsthat people just don't know, and
spouses especially don't knowthat they could qualify for that
yeah, yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
And these days we see a lot more veterans vietnam
than we ever have, getting tothat point getting older.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I would imagine so, as, yeah, I know
there's, and there's a couple ofother programs the VA has put
in place that are really goingto be helpful.
And as our Vietnam vets startgetting older, I'm sure that
you're going to have more andmore of these folks that qualify
.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So we just want to make sure they understand we're
not pushing them to apply forthe benefit, but we want them to
know about it.
If something come up and theyneeded it, we can jump on it
fairly quickly.
And if something come up andthey needed it, we can jump on
it fairly quickly.
But we talk about red flagmoments in a person's life and
try to make people aware of thatthat a lot of people go through
(20:47):
life and they just say it's myturn to deal with a heart attack
, or it's my turn to deal withlosing a spouse, or it's my turn
to deal with my eyesightfailing or whatever it might be.
Those events and others are redflag moments.
They're moments that shouldtrigger in a person the
awareness that maybe I need totalk to my elder law attorney
about this.
Is there something that Ishould be doing or not doing
(21:07):
that helped me down the road?
For example, let's say dad'sdied and daughter has been
trying to talk mom into movingin to her mother-in-law suite
and mom she's reluctant.
She's got her bank and her postoffice and her church and her
friends on the other side oftown.
She doesn't want to move to thefancy side of town where
daughter lives.
But there may be some reasonsto do that and if mom sells her
(21:34):
home she's going to put thatmoney in a CD.
Everybody does and it's justgoing to sit there and down the
road.
If mom has to apply forMedicaid, that CD is going to be
vulnerable to Medicaid sayingyou've got to spend it down.
Would there have been a waythat mom could have protected
that money?
Sure, Mom could know it.
That red flag moment was themoment when mom moves from home
into daughter.
We could have had thatconversation and told her how to
(21:54):
protect that money home and thedaughter.
We could have had thatconversation and told her how to
protect that money, but nobodyasked.
And now that money is going tobe going to pay for nursing home
care.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, I think that it's definitely something that
people don't think about.
We've had in our family too.
We've had folks that we have alot of longevity.
So we had my grandfather whowanted to give some early
inheritance to his children.
So he's 90 and they're in their70s and the challenge was for
(22:23):
my father particularly is thathe should not give his son some
money, because his son wasalready on needing care and so
giving him that money wouldknock him out of medicaid
benefits.
So we had to have this longconversation about that.
That's a people just have to bevery careful about how money is
(22:46):
being handed out, which is verynice and very kind, but it can
knock somebody off of there,yeah, so anything CDs and
inheritance be very carefulabout how all that thing's
structured, and that's why folksneed to come to you to really
get down to where things arecoming in.
What kind of income, where isit?
Gifting is a problem if theystill have someone who wants to
(23:10):
give them money in their olderyears.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
We haven't even touched on the whole issue of
special needs planning.
Oh yeah, for whatever reason,elder law and special needs
planning go hand in hand.
Oh yeah, we wouldn't think that, because a lot of kids with
special needs are teenagers oryoung adults, and what do they
have in common with seniors?
The one commonality is they'reboth eligible for government
benefits like Medicare, medicaid, social Security.
(23:35):
And special needs planning issomething we help families with
as well, and gifting issomething that comes up.
Grandma and grandma want tohelp little Jimmy because he's
got Down syndrome, so theyprovide more for him and their
will than for the other kids,because the other kids are
independent.
Yeah that's about the worstthing you could do, because
(23:55):
little Jimmy's not going to gethis benefits until all that
money spent.
Is there a better way to do it?
Of course there is, but you gotto ask.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Right?
Yeah, absolutely, they'redefinitely special needs
planning as the parents getolder.
We've got friends who havespecial needs children who are
now adults and they're ourfriends who are all in their 50s
and 60s are now worried what'sgoing to happen when I pass away
?
Who's going to take care of myson?
And I'm sure all special needsparents go through this thought
(24:23):
process of what happens if I gethit by a bus tomorrow.
Who's going to take care of mychild, even if they're an adult?
So there's all kinds of timeswhen special needs it should
start when they're young.
I would imagine as soon as youcan start that special needs.
It should start when they'reyoung, I would imagine as soon
as you can start that specialneeds planning.
You don't have to wait tillyou're 60 years old necessarily
to start all of that?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
No, not at all.
It's being able to makedecisions for your adult child
with special needs.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
When they turn 18, yeah, you have to apply for
guardianship or there's allkinds of things we just don't
realize.
Once that child turns 18 yearsold, they're an adult, so we
have to plan ahead for thosemoments so that he or she can
still be taken care of by theirparents for as long as needed.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, Just another aspect of elder law that we
don't really talk too much aboutbecause we're focusing on
seniors but the kids.
I think it could be anything.
It could be Down syndrome, itcould be cerebral palsy, it
could be bipolar issues.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, all kinds of things can happen.
What's the best way?
I know we'll put your websiteup on the screen.
Everybody can contact you inthe office phone.
Is it the best way just to giveyou a call and talk to whoever,
just get an appointment set upand get some material sent over?
Is that the greatest way tocontact you?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
We try to make the threshold as low as possible.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So we don't charge for consultations.
People call us.
We sit down, spend an hour withthem, talk through their
situation Doesn't cost them adime, and if there's something
we can do to help them, we willquote them a fixed fee.
So walking out the door they'llknow this is how much it's
going to cost me, and not a dimemore.
(26:05):
So we've given up on the hourlybilling model.
People like the certainty ofknowing what it's going to cost,
and that's what we want to makeit as easy as possible.
So all it's going to costsomebody is an hour of their
time to come talk to us.
And make it as easy as possible.
So all it's going to costsomebody is an hour of their
time to come talk to us.
We do Zoom, we do face-to-face,we even do old-fashioned phone
calls, whatever's easy for theclient.
Now some people will actuallydo house calls if they truly
(26:26):
qualify for a house call Now.
If they just want to make iteasy for them, that's different.
But if somebody's a shut-in ortheir loved one is bedridden and
they can't get caregivers whilethey need to meet, we'll go to
their house and talk with them.
We have three lawyers here.
I'm the oldest, but I'm notthat old.
I'll be around for some timeyet to come.
The other let's see onelawyer's in her 50s and one
(26:47):
lawyer's in her, I would say,late 30s, maybe early 40s.
I've never asked, it's none ofmy business.
But all to say, we have somecontinuity here and experience
and we'd be happy to helpanybody who wants to call.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Great, perfect.
Thank you so much, bill, fortalking to us and educating our
audience and letting us helpfolks know more about what they
need to be focusing on.
It's never too early to startplanning.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Thanks for your desire to get the word out to
people, to plan ahead, smartplanning, and it's very generous
of you to do what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Thank you so much.
I'm Bill Nolan.
My firm is the AlabamaEldercare Law Firm.
I've been a lawyer since 82.
This particular firm has beenin operation since 2006, when I
for lack of a better way todescribe it started specializing
in elder law.
It's a separate branch of thelaw here in Alabama and it's
(00:30):
focused on helping seniors andthe adult children of seniors
manage their care and managetheir assets as their condition
begins to decline and theirdecision-making ability might
deteriorate.
That's really what elder law isall about.
We're in Birmingham, alabama,but we work all over the state
of Alabama.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Great, awesome.
And I think that people getconfused if they're not in this
business and haven't experiencedthis between estate planning
and elder law.
Maybe you could clear up theconfusion there a little bit.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeah, that comes up a good bit between elder law and
estate planning, because mostpeople are roughly or vaguely
familiar with the term estateplanning and the truth is
there's a good bit of overlap.
There's a saying that all elderlaw attorneys are estate
planning attorneys, but not allestate planning attorneys are
elder law attorneys.
(01:24):
Estate planning typically gotits beginnings in the area of
wealthy people wanting topreserve and pass along their
wealth to the next generation,so the focus tended to be on
more well-to-do individuals andhelping them avoid taxes.
And that's still the driver fora lot of estate planning firms
is what can we do to avoid taxes?
(01:45):
Elder law typically focuses onthe here and now, not what
happens after death.
We're focused on how can wemake sure this 85-year-old
veteran is able to protect andpreserve what he's been
fortunate enough to accumulateover his lifetime.
Who cares what happens withtaxes after he's gone.
We want to make sure his assetsare here to take care of him
(02:07):
and we want to make sure theright people are making those
decisions.
And are there any benefits hemight be entitled to, like
veterans benefits or Medicaidbenefits?
How can we help him pay fornursing home care?
Estate planning attorneys focusmore on the higher wealth
individuals and they canself-pay for nursing home care.
They don't need veteransbenefits.
Our focus tends to be on peopleof more modest means.
(02:29):
That's the big singledifference, I think.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
And, having talked to many elder law attorneys over
the years, I think there are somany things that we don't do in
advance of needing care.
What are some of those thingsthat you would recommend that
anybody like I'm talking powerof attorney?
What are those things that wedon't do in advance of needing
care?
What are some of those thingsthat you would recommend that
anybody like I'm talking powerof attorney?
What are those things that weshould have set up before
there's a crisis?
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I hate to have a client come inand say I wish somebody had
told me that before now.
You know that means somebodywasn't doing their job.
Now it may mean that the clientwas too busy and didn't think
about asking the right questions.
We try to do seminars andpresentations and talk to church
groups and senior centers andmake people aware.
Now what's that saying?
You can lead a horse to water,we can talk to a blue in the
(03:13):
face, but if people don't takeaction there's not much we can
do about it.
You're right.
Having a good power of attorneyin place will allow your kids to
avoid having to go through anexpensive and time-consuming
conservatorship in the future.
It's a lot cheaper to have apower of attorney by about a
factor of 10 or 15 than it wouldbe to go through a
(03:34):
conservatorship.
You're not really giving upanything and you're getting
about 95% of the benefit rightthere.
Another thing you can do isthere's a type of deed we have
in Alabama.
Some states have them by otherterms.
We call them life estate deeds,some states call them ladybird
deeds, and the idea there is aperson can hang on to their home
(03:55):
while they're alive buttransferred immediately at death
, like having a beneficiary on adeed.
They're great tools, veryflexible, but you have to put
them in place while you're stillalive and have capacity.
They avoid probate and theyalso avoid a Medicaid recovery
lien, but people don't knowabout that and they have to be
in place for five years and aperson has to have capacity to
(04:18):
sign that deed in the firstplace.
So that's a typical example ofsomething that people don't
really know about but couldbenefit greatly from if they
learned about it.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Avoiding probate, anything you can do to avoid
probate or a long drawn outprobate anything you can arrange
in advance.
I find that the struggle forthe kids especially if there's a
lot of siblings involved, iffamily dynamics aren't that
great having this all decided inadvance helps avoid a lot of I
(04:49):
don't know disagreements anddysfunction among the kids.
And really, even if it's just asingle child like I'm, an only
child knowing what my mom wantsnow or my dad wants now is very
helpful to me.
Not having to make thatdecision when they're on a
ventilator and can't talk.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
And as an only child youshouldn't have to jump through
the same hoops to transfer yourparents' assets to you that a
family with five kids have tojump through.
But unfortunately the lawdoesn't distinguish there, so
you still have to go through thesame formalities, the same
delays, the same.
We call them creditor claimsperiods in Alabama.
You don't really have a choice,but your parents have the
(05:32):
choice.
They could avoid that if theychoose to avoid probate.
And people don't realize thatfor some reason people think I
don't need a will because mykids know what they're going to
get, or I don't need a willbecause my estate's not big
enough.
Or I don't need a will becausemy kids know what they're going
to get.
Or I don't need a will becausemy estate's not big enough, or I
(05:53):
don't need a will because it'sgoing to go to them when I die
anyway.
And the fact is that dyingwithout a will could cost your
kids about 10 times what youpaying for a will would cost you
.
So is that wise moneymanagement?
They think they're saving moneyby not having a will, but
they're actually spending 10times as much money by exposing
their kids to intestate probate.
They don't realize that.
Another one of the simple stuff.
I wish somebody had told methat before now.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Oh, absolutely, and so if you have a will, things
still have to go through probate, but it's a much more efficient
process because everything'sspelled out and the judge's
pretty much going to go withwhat's there.
That's right.
No one's arguing with the will.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
We say that probate isn't avoided, but a will is a
fast track through the process.
You still have to go throughthe process, still have to pay
the fees and wait the delays,but you don't have to jump
through nearly as many hoops asyou would if you died without a
will.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And what about avoiding probate altogether?
That would mean having somekind of trust, right.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Generally, a trust is the easiest way to avoid
probate entirely, becauseeverything is owned by the trust
and the trust isn't affected byyour death.
The assets still belong to thetrust, and the language of the
trust would say after the trustor where the person who creates
the trust has died, the trustee.
The language of the trust wouldsay after the trust or where
the person who creates the trusthas died, the trustee the
person managing it is todistribute the assets this way,
(07:12):
and that's a typical revocableliving trust.
But a lot of families don'teven need the complexity or
expense of a trust and here I amcutting into my own income,
because lawyers make a lot ofmoney doing trust.
But the reality is mostfamilies have two buckets of
assets.
They have their investmentretirement account investment
(07:33):
assets and they have their realestate.
Everything else is prettynominal.
Investments typically havebeneficiaries on those my spouse
first and my kids equal.
Iras have spouse first, kidsequal.
Those are going to pass outsideof probate regardless, so you
don't have to worry about those.
The house, though, is the oneasset that sometimes drags the
family back into probate, and ifyou were to use the life estate
(07:56):
deed or the ladybird deed, insome states it avoids probate on
the house and it's a tenth thecost of a trust.
So in many situations we seethat we can rely on the
beneficiary designation on theirinvestments already and just
use a life estate deed insteadof going through all the
paperwork of a trust, and stillaccomplish the same end result.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah, I think that's whatever you can do to minimize
what's going to happen after youpass is so helpful for your
kids.
Let me ask you a couple ofquestions that come to mind
about, let's say, let's talkabout power of attorney, let's
rewind on that again and wife,and let's say the husband gets
(08:50):
sick, does the spouse need tohave power of attorney still, or
she just?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
automatically gets to make the decisions?
That's a great question and theassumption is why do I need a
power of attorney for my spouse?
And you're right, most assetsin a married couple, many
married couples, own theirassets jointly the bank accounts
either, or the investmentseither, or houses, joint tenancy
, right of survivorship.
So the well spouse can managethose assets just fine without a
(09:15):
power of attorney at all.
But they don't think about theone big asset, the IRA or the
401k.
They're called IRAs for areason they're individual
retirement accounts.
They're not owned by a couple.
They're not owned by him or her, they're owned by him.
So he's got this big IRA sittingthere.
He's the only person who hasany say-so over that IRA.
(09:36):
He goes into the nursing home.
It's going to cost $8,000 amonth.
Wouldn't it be great if thewife could use his IRA to pay
for his nursing home care?
But if she doesn't have a powerof attorney, she can't touch it
.
She can call his investmentadvisor and complain all day
long and the investment advisorgoes sorry, I can't help you.
He's the only one who can makethat decision and he's had a
(09:56):
stroke and can't speak.
I better do this for you.
So yes, I think it makes sensefor even between married couples
for there to be a power ofattorney in place.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I would agree.
And health care too, becausethat way at least it's in
writing and, if your childrenaren't sure, you're the spouse
trying to make these decisionshaving a power of attorney for
health care and also having thatliving will which tells
everyone what I want I don'twant to be on a ventilator, I do
want to be on a ventilator.
Or when should we make thatdecision that I don't want to be
on a ventilator, I do want tobe on a ventilator.
Or when should we make thatdecision that I don't want to
live anymore?
Those are hard decisions tomake, even for a spouse
(10:30):
sometimes.
And having all of that put inplace and we haven't talked
about living wills but that'sanother thing that you can.
I'm sure you help with that allthe time, putting together a
living will.
I know hospitals can help withthat too.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
We tell people that having a will alone is really
not being well protected.
A will takes care of your stuffafter you're gone, which is nice
, but it doesn't do you any goodwhile you're alive.
The health care directives wecall them health care directives
here in Alabama and the powerof attorney are there to protect
you while you're alive butunable to take care of yourself,
and in some sense that's moreimportant than what happens to
(11:05):
your stuff after you're gone.
So we explain to people what ahealth care directive is
designed to accomplish, that is,to make sure your wishes are
honored and carried out, notsomebody else's wishes.
You do have to make a decision,but it's a gift to your kids
and your spouse.
If you make that decision, youare relieving your kids from
(11:26):
having to make that samedecision, and nobody wants to
make that decision for anybodyelse.
If you can make it for yourselfand all they have to do is
carry out your wishes, it's awhole different dynamic than
having them sit there, sweat,have to justify their decision
to the siblings and all thattheir decision to the siblings
and all that.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, feeling guilty in here is one thing, but having
to face a sibling that may notagree or who hasn't been around
for 10 years and then, suddenlyreappears and says, oh no, yeah,
those are the hard the thingsthat I think, just having been
around the block for a while anddoing a lot of things with
seniors and families been aroundthe block for a while and doing
(12:09):
a lot of things- with seniorsand families.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
people come out of the woodwork when someone gets
sick.
A lot of history betweenbrothers and sisters or sisters
and sisters will rear its uglyhead at that point when
everybody's under stress andmaybe there's assets to be
divided up and decisions to bemade.
It's amazing, they say, younever truly get to know somebody
until you go through theprobate process with them.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, that can be true.
Yeah, absolutely, I can imaginethat.
But, yeah, but.
So planning ahead number onethat's really what everybody
should be doing, and evenfuneral planning, which is not
exactly a part of elder lawplanning, but having a funeral
plan in place is so helpful.
We see a lot of times peopleobviously pass unexpectedly.
(12:54):
It doesn't always happen whenyou're expecting it, and so
having plans in place can alsohelp with that entire process.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
I think something people don't realize or take
into consideration is, in atypical marriage first marriage
kids are both your kids.
It's fairly straightforwardmaking plans.
But when you have a step kidinvolved, you have a second
marriage or a third marriage.
You have adult children whodidn't grow up together coming
together and you don't knowwhich spouse is going to die
(13:24):
first.
You don't know how much time isgoing to go by between the
first and the second death.
You don't know whose kids aregoing to stay involved or what
influence they might have on thesurviving spouse.
You don't know if the survivingspouse is going to marry yet
another time.
There's so many questions thatcan happen and oftentimes the
adult daughter has been makingdecisions for her mom or her dad
(13:46):
after the death of the firstspouse and now they remarry and
this new woman or new man swoopsin and starts making all these
decisions.
The dynamics can be all overthe map and usually they're not
good dynamics.
So helping families who are ina second or third marriage
understand all of the hurdles,bumps in the road that they
(14:07):
might encounter is one of thethings that we try to help with.
And you know, usually in asecond marriage the husband and
wife think oh, we love eachother and everybody's going to
get along just peachy keen.
And I get to see that happen.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think it's.
I can use myself as an examplebecause I'm not telling on
somebody else, but what I cansay is that my mother and her
second husband have done anexcellent job because they were
married when all of us kids wereadults.
So we didn't know each otheruntil they got married and we
don't live close together.
So they live in Kansas and Ilive in Missouri and our parents
(14:42):
live in North Carolina.
None of us are close by.
So it's awesome that theirfather has a trust with
everything spelled out what goesto his wife, what goes to his
kids, and my mom has a trust andeverything is spelled out what
goes to me, what happened?
Can she?
And in his trust he talks aboutthe house Can she live in the
house after he passes, if it'sin his name?
(15:03):
And I don't know all the details, but I do know that they've
done a really good job of makingsure that when the time comes
that all of us kids are going tohave to come together, probably
one way or another, buteverybody knows exactly what's
going to happen for the mostpart, and that's been something
that I'm very grateful for onfor both of them to have done
(15:26):
that and make sure thateverybody's treated fairly and
treated the way that they wantthem and we get along.
But we also know that they'vebeen good planners.
You don't come across that veryoften.
We just don't want to have thatconversation.
We don't want to have that talk.
It's rough.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
It's rough, but it's so important to have it To avoid
all sorts of negatives down theroad, and I wish more people
would plan like your mom and herhusband had planned.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I think it's, I think he he might.
He's an engineer by trade, so Ithink he's a planner, so I
think that might be part of it,but it is definitely a good
thing and that still doesn't.
They've had a few illnesses,surgeries as they get older, and
one of us takes that trip andgoes to North Carolina and
reports back to everybody else.
(16:12):
How's everybody doing?
And they were all good abouttrying to be involved, but they
definitely.
But there's going to come atime when all three of us are
going to have to come togetherand figure some stuff out, and
we're aware of that.
But yeah, planning ahead hashelped tremendously.
What would be planning ahead isprobably your greatest piece of
advice.
But when people come to you andthey maybe they are facing a
(16:36):
crisis, what are some of thethings that you can do that
really help them move to thenext step or get their ducks in
a row?
What's your process in youroffice?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Well, I think once somebody comes to us, we don't
want to drag the process outunnecessarily.
It takes people years to cometo the decision.
I want to go finally get a will.
People have all sorts of ideasthat once I sign my will I'm
going to drop dead, which is nottrue, but people think that.
So we don't want to delay theprocess.
(17:06):
There's a lawyer in BirminghamI won't name names, but this
lawyer takes forever to get adocument out and I don't know
why a person would do that.
If a person's made this toughdecision to get their documents
in place, we should doeverything possible to satisfy
that person's desire as quicklyas we can.
That's our goal.
We also don't see it just as atask.
(17:30):
We see it as a step tosomething else.
It's a step towards gettingeverything in place.
We ask everybody that comes inare you a veteran?
What difference does that make?
It makes a lot of difference.
You could have benefits, oryour spouse could have benefits
that you might not know about.
So let's explore those benefits.
What's your financial situation?
(17:51):
I don't necessarily need toknow the details if I'm doing a
simple estate plan, but if we'rehelping somebody qualify for
Medicaid now or down the road.
It would be helpful to tellthem what they could do now to
rearrange those assets so thatthey could qualify sooner rather
than later.
What about their familysituations?
Do they have kids scatteredaround?
Who do you want to makedecisions for you?
(18:12):
Who do you want to have backups?
What about grandkids?
Do you want to help them or not?
Those are details that we tryto explore.
So we try to get into theirfamily much more than they
probably think we ought to.
But we're doing it for a reasonand in fact here's a quick story
.
This was years ago.
This is a different checklist,but we ask everybody to fill out
(18:34):
a checklist before they comesee us.
So the first meeting is notjust us asking questions.
We have all the answers and wecan go from there.
We had, on our veteranschecklist, a question can the
veteran use the restroomunassisted or not?
Because that would go towardshis activities of daily living,
which would allow him to qualifyfor aid and attendance benefit.
Yep.
So a financial advisor hadrecommended his client come see
(18:58):
us.
We sent him a checklist and thefinancial advisor called me
back after we'd sent him thechecklist and he was laughing
and he said my client called meup after he got your checklist
and he said what business is itthat large to know whether I can
go to the bathroom or not?
And so we took that questionoff.
We thought we could deal withthat in the moment rather than
to create that situation.
(19:19):
But again, it's just an exampleof us asking for more
information than possibly peopleexpect us to need to know.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
No, that's great.
Coming into the meetingprepared does help move things
along quickly and I know there'sa lot of programs and services
from veterans benefits toMedicaid all kinds of stuff and
the state of Alabama probablyhas a few things out there that
they don't even know that theycould qualify for that could be
immensely helpful in the eventthat they're needing care and VA
(19:49):
aid and attendance pensionbenefit is one of those way over
under underutilized programsthat people just don't know, and
spouses especially don't knowthat they could qualify for that
yeah, yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
And these days we see a lot more veterans vietnam
than we ever have, getting tothat point getting older.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, yeah, I would imagine so, as, yeah, I know
there's, and there's a couple ofother programs the VA has put
in place that are really goingto be helpful.
And as our Vietnam vets startgetting older, I'm sure that
you're going to have more andmore of these folks that qualify
.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So we just want to make sure they understand we're
not pushing them to apply forthe benefit, but we want them to
know about it.
If something come up and theyneeded it, we can jump on it
fairly quickly.
And if something come up andthey needed it, we can jump on
it fairly quickly.
But we talk about red flagmoments in a person's life and
try to make people aware of thatthat a lot of people go through
(20:47):
life and they just say it's myturn to deal with a heart attack
, or it's my turn to deal withlosing a spouse, or it's my turn
to deal with my eyesightfailing or whatever it might be.
Those events and others are redflag moments.
They're moments that shouldtrigger in a person the
awareness that maybe I need totalk to my elder law attorney
about this.
Is there something that Ishould be doing or not doing
(21:07):
that helped me down the road?
For example, let's say dad'sdied and daughter has been
trying to talk mom into movingin to her mother-in-law suite
and mom she's reluctant.
She's got her bank and her postoffice and her church and her
friends on the other side oftown.
She doesn't want to move to thefancy side of town where
daughter lives.
But there may be some reasonsto do that and if mom sells her
(21:34):
home she's going to put thatmoney in a CD.
Everybody does and it's justgoing to sit there and down the
road.
If mom has to apply forMedicaid, that CD is going to be
vulnerable to Medicaid sayingyou've got to spend it down.
Would there have been a waythat mom could have protected
that money?
Sure, Mom could know it.
That red flag moment was themoment when mom moves from home
into daughter.
We could have had thatconversation and told her how to
(21:54):
protect that money home and thedaughter.
We could have had thatconversation and told her how to
protect that money, but nobodyasked.
And now that money is going tobe going to pay for nursing home
care.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, I think that it's definitely something that
people don't think about.
We've had in our family too.
We've had folks that we have alot of longevity.
So we had my grandfather whowanted to give some early
inheritance to his children.
So he's 90 and they're in their70s and the challenge was for
(22:23):
my father particularly is thathe should not give his son some
money, because his son wasalready on needing care and so
giving him that money wouldknock him out of medicaid
benefits.
So we had to have this longconversation about that.
That's a people just have to bevery careful about how money is
(22:46):
being handed out, which is verynice and very kind, but it can
knock somebody off of there,yeah, so anything CDs and
inheritance be very carefulabout how all that thing's
structured, and that's why folksneed to come to you to really
get down to where things arecoming in.
What kind of income, where isit?
Gifting is a problem if theystill have someone who wants to
(23:10):
give them money in their olderyears.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
We haven't even touched on the whole issue of
special needs planning.
Oh yeah, for whatever reason,elder law and special needs
planning go hand in hand.
Oh yeah, we wouldn't think that, because a lot of kids with
special needs are teenagers oryoung adults, and what do they
have in common with seniors?
The one commonality is they'reboth eligible for government
benefits like Medicare, medicaid, social Security.
(23:35):
And special needs planning issomething we help families with
as well, and gifting issomething that comes up.
Grandma and grandma want tohelp little Jimmy because he's
got Down syndrome, so theyprovide more for him and their
will than for the other kids,because the other kids are
independent.
Yeah that's about the worstthing you could do, because
(23:55):
little Jimmy's not going to gethis benefits until all that
money spent.
Is there a better way to do it?
Of course there is, but you gotto ask.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Right?
Yeah, absolutely, they'redefinitely special needs
planning as the parents getolder.
We've got friends who havespecial needs children who are
now adults and they're ourfriends who are all in their 50s
and 60s are now worried what'sgoing to happen when I pass away
?
Who's going to take care of myson?
And I'm sure all special needsparents go through this thought
(24:23):
process of what happens if I gethit by a bus tomorrow.
Who's going to take care of mychild, even if they're an adult?
So there's all kinds of timeswhen special needs it should
start when they're young.
I would imagine as soon as youcan start that special needs.
It should start when they'reyoung, I would imagine as soon
as you can start that specialneeds planning.
You don't have to wait tillyou're 60 years old necessarily
to start all of that?
Speaker 1 (24:42):
No, not at all.
It's being able to makedecisions for your adult child
with special needs.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
When they turn 18, yeah, you have to apply for
guardianship or there's allkinds of things we just don't
realize.
Once that child turns 18 yearsold, they're an adult, so we
have to plan ahead for thosemoments so that he or she can
still be taken care of by theirparents for as long as needed.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, Just another aspect of elder law that we
don't really talk too much aboutbecause we're focusing on
seniors but the kids.
I think it could be anything.
It could be Down syndrome, itcould be cerebral palsy, it
could be bipolar issues.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, all kinds of things can happen.
What's the best way?
I know we'll put your websiteup on the screen.
Everybody can contact you inthe office phone.
Is it the best way just to giveyou a call and talk to whoever,
just get an appointment set upand get some material sent over?
Is that the greatest way tocontact you?
Speaker 1 (25:40):
We try to make the threshold as low as possible.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So we don't charge for consultations.
People call us.
We sit down, spend an hour withthem, talk through their
situation Doesn't cost them adime, and if there's something
we can do to help them, we willquote them a fixed fee.
So walking out the door they'llknow this is how much it's
going to cost me, and not a dimemore.
(26:05):
So we've given up on the hourlybilling model.
People like the certainty ofknowing what it's going to cost,
and that's what we want to makeit as easy as possible.
So all it's going to costsomebody is an hour of their
time to come talk to us.
And make it as easy as possible.
So all it's going to costsomebody is an hour of their
time to come talk to us.
We do Zoom, we do face-to-face,we even do old-fashioned phone
calls, whatever's easy for theclient.
Now some people will actuallydo house calls if they truly
(26:26):
qualify for a house call Now.
If they just want to make iteasy for them, that's different.
But if somebody's a shut-in ortheir loved one is bedridden and
they can't get caregivers whilethey need to meet, we'll go to
their house and talk with them.
We have three lawyers here.
I'm the oldest, but I'm notthat old.
I'll be around for some timeyet to come.
The other let's see onelawyer's in her 50s and one
(26:47):
lawyer's in her, I would say,late 30s, maybe early 40s.
I've never asked, it's none ofmy business.
But all to say, we have somecontinuity here and experience
and we'd be happy to helpanybody who wants to call.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Great, perfect.
Thank you so much, bill, fortalking to us and educating our
audience and letting us helpfolks know more about what they
need to be focusing on.
It's never too early to startplanning.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Thanks for your desire to get the word out to
people, to plan ahead, smartplanning, and it's very generous
of you to do what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Thank you so much.
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